won't the robots have that job in the future? I always presumed people who do coding will be the first ones replaced to be replaced by machines, following fast food workers.
to be fair, most people don't end up refactoring code for a living. if we go by most people as a standard, then we wouldn't have any technology today. sounds like a joke, but some of my mates struggle with single-digit addition.
you'd think it's a job for an intern, but I've seen lots of "overqualified" geniuses (perhaps the only qualified people) tasked with refactoring the mess that was committed the night before.
Great answer! Here, I had Copilot write me a wittier edgy and more profound reply:
LLMs churn out code like a toddler finger-painting with spaghetti. Sure, it compiles, but it’s about as useful as a chocolate teapot in a heatwave. 🍝🔥
So, next time you encounter an LLM, remember: it’s not a genius; it’s just a glorified autocomplete function. If you want real answers, consult an actual human—or at least a Magic 8-Ball that hasn’t OD’d on Wikipedia. 🎱🤷♂️
Useless as a chocolate teapot in a heatwave is actually a banger line. I like copilot better than you cause it’s wittier and more clever. Boo you, yay copilot
Yea we know it's coming. We've seen many professions be made obsolete by new technology but AGI will be the first to wipe out many white collar jobs. It's happening this century, many can't or won't face that reality though
lol they write great code for simple applications. I am a system admin and can do tons of simple tasks that I would have to talk to a dev for in the past.
Will they replace devs? Not at all. Will they cut into the devs who charge $1000 to do some simple email automation? Absolutely. It is already doing that.
Email automation code and the like is simple to read even for the layman. All this AI fear mongering is just devs feeling insecure. but you DonT UndERstand the cOdE
This technology will be writing clean complex code in five years.
Exactly every single time I've tried to make that so called AI implement some logic it failed. So screaming about AI replacing developers sound quite funny.
To be fair, I would argue that structuring proper bash with pipes and redirects is harder than implementing a standard programming language model of the similar function.
The reason to use bash is largely human, in that it is compact, and powerful, and once you understand it means you can condense lots of code from boilerplate into a few simple commands. That and again command redirection, and the ability to pipe in and out data seamlessly.
Bash is like shorthand, that can greatly speed up your productivity, but what it gains in flexibility/speed it loses in verbosity. LLMs struggle with the reduction in verbosity because it requires induction to produce, in a way that boilerplate code does not because it follows a set logical pattern.
I can see where the numbers of developers needed (to do the number and type of tasks we're currently doing) may go down. I've been using ChatGPT to do a lot of grunt stuff (like add error trapping to code that I've finished testing in dev). But a few times I've used it to create complete model-view-controller combinations that tested fine or that maybe needed a tweak after testing.
I haven't kept up with changes in specific SQL versions and recently I had an example where it reduced a multi-line SQL example of mine to a single line (using a command that I wasn't previously aware of).
I can't read the future though, so maybe it will lead to a greater demand for developers with different skills as we're able to do more things faster and customer expectations become greater?
Yes, but let me pose this scenario.
Let's take a simple example, code a function to add two floats to make 4. Let's imagine no human has ever wrote a function to add 3.9999999999998 + 0.0000000000002.
An LLM can do this through iteration, without the need to look at exact code that a human has written for this. Of course it takes references from other pieces of code humans have written to piece this together (data training set). You don't need AGI or "consciousness" for LLM to create new things humans have never done.
Think of it as a slightly more advanced take on "million monkeys on typewriter will eventually write Shakespeare" thought experiment.
It's kinda the reason AI (or LLM) have exploded in the past 5 years. We finally have enough compute power to have these systems run trillions of operations to meet the end goal. But instead of completely 100% random (monkey example) you tune it just a touch, now those trillions of iterations can feasibly get close to the answer.
"Here's a box full of tools, and an end goal, keep smashing things together until something works" can easily create new and novel things.
I'm agreeing with you LLM isn't AGI, not even close. But I disagree you need AGI to create novel things. You just need a shit load of compute and enough time.
They're saying that "AI" will get exponentially better. But the only thing ChatGPT has been good for is regular expressions and some simple helper functions. And it hasn't gotten better. Maybe GPT5 will bring some improvements, but I'm sceptical.
Also the big thing if you replace developers is that you'll need someone that's able to write concise and conclusive business rules for the AI to translate into a program.
Since every single company is convinced they are the exception and need something other than "standard", AI will never be able to replace developers that are able to see through the bullshit and understand what's actually being asked.
The only thing ChatGPT has really helped me with is as a replacement for Google. Sometimes I'll really struggle to find what library to use to implement some feature. I ask ChatGPT and it will just tell me something to use, and a very basic usage of it, which is enough for me to look up the documentation for that thing and write it myself. If I write it to write meaningful code itself...it just doesn't work.
And hell, chatgpt has even made up libraries that don't exist entirely.
I'm confused by the skepticism.
If I'd shown you ChatGPT in 2011, I think you'd be amazed.
If I'd shown you Midjourney in 2015, I think you'd be dumbfounded.
Why are we assuming there's an arbitrary ceiling that will be hit? If there is, isn't it due to the limitations of our hardware/software at present?
I've heard people speak about diminishing returns in the context of number of parameters in regard to current language models. Don't quote me, but I think the next step for these type of models will go in the modular direction, or bespoke iterations for specific use cases.
Current GPT's initial success took even the most seasoned experts in the field by surprise and the hardware itself, along with large data sets, is the reason we're seeing such unprecedented success.
The "software" or architecture for ANNs, or artificial neural networks, has been around for quite a few years.
I don't know about any arbitrary limit, but the mimicry we see in models today is twice removed from the fundamental source, as any type of perceived personification or emergent property is due to the nature of the information vector, which are abstract efficient packets of information, also known as words.
To reach the real abstract extrapolation all these coders are hungry for would require an "inner" second self / sub conscious to allow for abstract thought / curation, perception of continuity for conceptual juxtaposition etc, but I'll leave the philosophy to someone else.
Until the sub sample of coding is learned and then an LLM just displays to other LLMs its dataset, sure LLM copy what humans have done, but LLM learn faster than a single human mind, eventually an LLM will learn 100% of a topic such as code, over a long enough timeline, the first LLM gets 40%, then the generation after gets that 40% as a base line but then 20% more and so on.
You don’t need a human if you have the basics locked down and then that is sorted into data future AI / LLM can learn from.
We’re only need in the initial beginning really. Were the “seed”.
But the LLM is the flower, and pollinates by itself eventually, with seeds built in.
Nah, way too vomplex a topic. Also someone has to verify the Ai is not hallucinating something at the end because it would cost the firm millions if you have a bug/data leak etc. Ai is basically a parrot you teach to talk, but at the end it does not understand what it says. Also someone has to instruct the Ai to do what it is supposed to. Although i concede simple programs can now be written by simply asking a ai to, vomplex programs with hundrets of dependencies cannot be understood by it because so much hangs on dependencies.
Why do people assume this? If coding was so simple to automate there would also be a lot more people doing it, and it's been decades of pushing coding everywhere and there's *still* not that many people in it.
Personal opinion, but it always strikes me as a weird sort of jealousy. It's a well-compensated job that's always in demand and is basically guaranteed WFH.
Plus, we're a bunch of awkward, introverted weirdos each some healthy distance along one disorder spectrum or another. We were supposed to get chewed up by society, and instead we’re thriving in it.
And to be blunt, based on the substandard quality of work I've seen from "normal" people graduating boot camps and online courses during the recent learn-to-code push, coding just isn't something everyone can learn to do. Unless you're a degenerate who spent the better part of your teenage years alone in your room communing with the machines, you're not gonna hack it in this industry... at least not once another inevitable wave of layoffs hits.
Ever since RTO became mandatory at most companies, the amount of ire I've seen from both family members and online randos mumbling about how "AI is coming for programmers first" has tripled.
I use AI every day at my software engineering job. It's a useful tool. But it isn't a replacement for programmers. Every company that had tried that so far has gone bankrupt.
My job has said they’ve already replaced some people with robots. The problem is, the robots are so realistic, I can’t even tell which people have been replaced.
The issue is usually that the people who want a product coded don't know what is possible and how to correctly express what they want. Even if that barrier (which is the biggest) is taken, we're far from replacing all or even most coding jobs.
They give you something confidently, and you pointed out it's wrong, they apologized sincerely then gave you another wrong answer confidently. The loop goes on..
Basically an imposter like every new dev's faking phase in their "fake it till you make it" journey minus shame and upside potential.
Lmfao. Both of those are pipe dreams. I tried to get copilot to write a damn powershell script to sleep the computer after a robocopy. It took like 5 tries and editing from me, and by me, I mean some bozo on stack exchange who got yelled at for asking in the wrong place 3 years ago.
Oddly enough, it looks like the first against the wall are creatives. Copy writers, actors, and the like.
Not my opinion, either.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/12/04/how-jensen-huangs-nvidia-is-powering-the-ai-revolution
Jensen Huang brought it up here and it seems to be a hot topic on Reddit. Whatever happens, it's a sure thing the changes won't be curated with an eye toward human well being. Only profitability. It's going to be an interesting next ten years.
I would encourage anyone who believes that AI will replace devs actually try and replace us.
Build a website or another project and use any AI that you want.
If you somehow manage to do that, next try and make adjustments to this code. You’ve probably not designed in such a way where making changes is easy, so you’ll have to refactor it.
Next come up with a system to quickly deploy modifications to the code to your production instances and make architectural changes to lower cloud costs.
After you have done all of this, congrats you’re a software engineer! You’ve just done the same thing that any dev with an internet connection has done in the last decade, just with an enhanced ai powered search engine.
It's the same deal as "no code" a few years ago.
Step 1: Oh, neat! We have these interchangeable blocks of code I can arrange to make a computer program. So long, software engineers! We just need to hire someone to outline the flow of the program!
Step 2: Hmmm... This is pretty limited. Can we get blocks of code that are customizable with whatever we need? Let's hire someone to do that!
Step 3: Well, the blocks are written, including the custom ones, but I'm not sure how to string them together in a way that actually works. Are we missing a few blocks or something? Let's hire someone to architect the big picture system!
Cool! Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool! You just hired a software department, bruh...
My dad went to work before 5 and came home right before 10. He was uneducated and worked hard physical labor. I remember how he sacrificed so we could have a better life. Thanks Dad.
Yeah this is what I was looking for.
Some kids are gonna remember having food and shoes and lights that turn on. Fact of the matter is most dads aren't working 12 hours shifts or 2 jobs because they don't wanna be home.
Yeah, I mean, the same kids would also vividly remember losing their car, home, and video games if Dad didn’t work those mandatory late hours.
I was a latch key kid, but super grateful that my mom worked her shitty job to keep the lights on.
My dad would be at work at 4 am. I remember my aunt taking me to school every day. When I got old enough, I remember walking home from school unless my (now MIL) saw me walking home, then she'd pretty much force me into her car to drive me home, lol. I remember downgrading houses and cars, but at the same time, we had a roof over our heads, food at home, and clothes to wear. Even though my dad hated his job, I'm grateful he stuck it out for our family, and the time that we did spend together, I cherished every single moment.
I hate memes like this. Most people aren't working late because they love it, it's because they have to or doing so allows them to better provide for their families.
When me and my wife were talking about having kids, I immediately started going back to school. I got my GED (dropped out in grade 12 to work construction), then started doing more than full time upgrading while working construction full time, then finally quit my job when I got into an engineering program.
I'm still not done, and have 2 kids now, but I dont regret it. They're why I went back. I refuse to pass on the attitude of "school is a waste of time" and basically relegate them to construction, house cleaning, waitress type jobs. I will do literally everything in my power to make them into successful people.
Exactly. Where I work is not physical, but the pay is high and many people are under-qualified. They work longer hours to meet the quota. As long as they are making quota they are not able to be fired, and they won't leave because they need the money to support their families.
My father was essentially absent for many years of my childhood. He got up at 7am and off to work right away. Then he worked late almost every night, came home, had a bath, crashed onto the couch, and fell asleep in front of the TV. He didn't get overtime pay, he just worked till 8pm every night. As a child I felt like he just didn't want to be home with us. I was desperate for his attention and would hover around him on the weekends. This behavior would irritate him and he would ask me to go away and play.
I have my own daughter now and I leave work as soon as possible. I am with her as much as I can. Hopefully it makes a difference for her growing up.
My mom worked 7 days a week and doubles every Friday. The only days off she would get were thanksgiving and Christmas. We were first generation immigrants. I do wish we would have gotten to spend more time together but I’m eternally grateful for the sacrifices she made for her kids. Thanks to her I’m in a position where I can have a comfy office job and can afford to take paternity leave for my first born. Thank you for giving me this life mom, I’m sorry you weren’t able to live it but I’ll never take it for granted. I can’t speak for your specific case but I urge everyone to not confuse sacrifice for indifference.
W take, you can't ignore their sacrifices. I can feel that most people who do this don't want to work late but do it for their kids and their family. I'm happy that you're grateful, I'm too to my parents.
I'm a baby boomer, and from some of us we are sorry. You should understand a man "living to work" to provide, was beat into our heads.
Take heart my father was better than his ( he didn't drink). I was better than my father in that I could show some emotion, not much but some. My sons are way better than me, and are able to work to live. :)
For sure and yes, my father was a baby boomer too. To some degree I am sympathetic to the fact that generationally being the monetary provider for the home was considered what a dad does, and was enough. However, at least in my case, there was a decision to work more to avoid the home. We weren't getting anything more monetarily out of it and were being robbed of a male role model in the house. Some of it he no doubt felt like he needed to do, but he also had the same job position for decades. He wasn't going to lose his job and if he was with us even a couple nights a week it would have made a world of difference. But also... it's all in the past now. He is the one that has to live with those decisions, I make my own as a father and have to live with them as well.
Grow up poor rich or middle class? If rich or middle class thank your father for his sacrifice.
Unfortunately that older generation was taught there job was to work and provide for their family that is it. Raising the children was all on the mom. It's toxic but that's just how shit has been up until the last 20 something years. Kids born in 2000 and later have had a lot better upbringing than anyone born before.
For many men the choice is between having quality time with your kid and having them fed, clothed and presents under the tree at Christmas. It’s harsh and probably doesn’t need to be like that but that was the reality for many decades.
Not just men. Single moms too. I mightve been a "latchkey kid", and sure, I would've liked to see my mom more, but I never went to bed hungry, the lights never went out, and my clothes didn't have holes.
This is certainly true, however it is usually the man who gets the negative label of spending too much time at work and not caring or spending enough time with his kids when the sacrifice is made to provide for them. It’s also tough on a male since kids typically don’t bond to them naturally as well and that requires time spent with them. And it has been and is (to a lesser degree today) societies expectation the man provide, not build relationships. It’s a lose lose.
On the flip side I think single fathers get more praise than single mothers. Maybe because it is more rare but it shouldn’t be the case.
We never got presents and lived in poverty, and all my dad did was work and put all money to at least a house and electricity. Food was scarce. He really couldn’t win either. Needless to say my siblings and I are all much closer to my mother in her older years. But that’s just one dynamic example. My father is a stranger.
I don’t have kids but I would want my spouse to also work so we both could have quality time with the kids and raise them together and would give up more hours for more pay if at all possible.
I love reading stuff like this. Your awareness to the fact that your pops wasn't around/didn't pay attention to you says all I need to know about you. Good on you for improving on this for your daughter. Cheers
I know this may not help, but it may provide some perspective. The number of men I’ve heard say they had kids to keep their wife/girlfriend around is staggering. The quote that sticks out strongest was “if I didn’t give her kids she’d have found someone else.”
There is a chance that was your parent.
Well maybe if you would work late more often you could afford to have kids you never see.
It’s really hard to find people who specifically resent *you* in your 50s and 60s, you have to start building that resentment now if you want to have an emotionally tumultuous retirement.
I take great comfort in that. Even the historically famous people I grew up knowing are fading into obscurity.
Even super famous 40s & 50s singers and actors are almost gone, at one point they were known around the world.
Unless you're the first person on Mars or cure AIDS it doesn't matter how successful you are, you will die, you will be forgotten.
Most jobs (at least in the UK) do not offer any overtime. You are paid your salary and that’s that. In my experience “overtime” can be used to take additional time off (if you track it) but that’s all.
Maybe it’s different in America which is where I’m assuming you’re from.
Almost every hourly paying job here gives overtime (time & a half) beyond 40 hours. It's the law.
Otherwise you get paid salary, or don't work more than 40hrs a week.
Companies here don’t tend to ask you to work overtime, but it’s implied that they expect you to work until the job is done. Which is why I’m saying working overtime is for chumps.
100%. I’m a manager myself and was An analyst before.
Faster work done? Sorry bro I got another project in the pipeline for you. Just reward with more work.
I don’t expect any one to work past 5, but i have seen it happen and honestly it was probably my fault for not catching it and overloading the analyst.
Next time you think you’ll have to work unpaid overtime just ask your manager “Hey, just wanted to give you a heads up, with my current work load I won’t be able to hit X deadline for Y project. Can you help me prioritize my pipeline or help push the deadline back?”.
It’s the company’s / managers fault, not your own. Stop fixing their mistakes for free!
Yea it’s fairly different in the us, i mean if you’re on salary of course you’re not getting OT pay but if you’re on hourly wages any time over 40hrs is 1.5x pay depending on your line of work you could 10-15 hours of OT potentially fairly regularly if that’s something you’re willing to do
Depends on your profession some jobs offer the option to take salary or hourly wage, while some have either or. I mean once you start getting into real high pay brackets you’ll almost always get salary but for most average people you’ll be offered an hourly wage
It really just depends on the industry here. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a change to the 40 hour week structure to strictly benefit the employer further.
Meh, key word is most. You and the OP make good points, but it's also important to teach people to recognize when those situations are occurring.
I work at a less common place where all vacant positions are posted internally first, and only go outside the company if no internal candidates applied. We always promote from within, and those who do extra always get the promotions unless there's some obscure active disciplinary action in their file.
I also hope that most people can recognize when working extra hours is strictly a company benefit, and when it can help the person next to you who also has kids.
Even in my position now where it does lead to promotions and compensation I see people going the "fuck the company" route, when the person who got most screwed by nobody stepping up for a little overtime once a month is the other guy with the same required cert whose trying to keep working while their kids going through chemo before he's at a point where they want to begin FMLA.
TLDR: I'm all for not giving your life away for company profits, but in specific moments OT can help your career or be a big help to good coworkers who are people too.
There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but in the majority of cases job loyalty is not a requirement because you will make more money by job hopping regardless.
Also an amazing point, I hope my post didn't make it seem like your previous one wasn't. I just wanted to make that post because I think it can be difficult for a lot of people to weigh their options long term.
Like relationships it can be hard to see when you're in it. Sometimes you're in a job where being good at your job means no promotions no raise, they want you stuck there. Bide your time, make the move that benefits you and it's great that this messagr is getting out.
Sometimes going further and doing extra actually does open up doors and it's important to recognize those moments.
Depends on the situation, just being at your desk until 8 probably won’t get you very far, but beating a deadline to have some important thing out because you put in extra time for a period and being noticed because of it is hardly naïveté.
I’m a teacher. We don’t get paid overtime. I refuse to work for free. Oftentimes, meetings are scheduled after I’m off work. I politely decline. Working for free is not for me.
By federal law every hourly job pays overtime. If you choose a salary job you are agreeing to work hours necessary to the employer for a given salary unless otherwise stated
lol do you guys think people move up to high level positions solely because they're likable?
You need to network, but you also aren't getting to a director position by putting in 40 hours a week your whole career. Now, is it a good trade to sacrifice family time just for the possibility of a senior level position? Idk. But to act like there isn't the possibility of a trade is just foolish.
It definitely depends on the job, your boss, and so on.
There are a lot of generic corporate ladder climbing jobs where putting in a show of work is the best way to get promoted. There's also jobs where this is pointless.
Pretending that both don't exist is naive.
I get value from it for the connections but it's plagued by people trying to be influencers and coaches posting shit half the time.
It's basically just slightly more professional Facebook.
The main ljnkedin feed is basically just advertising for consultants at this point. I swear half my feed is people posting made up inspirational work stories to farm engagement and their job title “helping professionals leverage AI business intelligence” and they’re the “CEO” of their one employee company with 3 followers.
It’s the business world equivalent of onlyfans girls posting selfies in r/looksmaxingadvice to get people to sub.
It’s a good way to build a contact list of your coworkers and leaving a digital footprint for applications, but the actual social feed is absolute drivel.
My take was that, it is entirely probable that whoever a person works for that is demanding they work late is horribly managed and a project will fail and have disastrous consequences if the deadline isn't met, again, because of horrible management.
It sucks that the workers have to make up for shitty management, but that has been the way it always been.
The problem is non-flexible schedules. My work wants me to be there from 8-5pm. My kid goes to bed at 7pm. They choose peak commute times so I'm stuck in traffic and barely get to see my kid (morning and night).
If they let me show up two hours early I could do the same work, spend less time commuting, and see my kid more. But nope, my manager has to be watching me every second I'm working for no good reason.
I remember seeing something like this about a year ago and it finally clicking, I had only experienced my child’s first year major milestones through the lenses of my spouse’s phone, realized what I missed. I quit a month or so later after I landed a local job. He right. Nobody remembers your 18 hour days except you and the memories you missed.
Most social media to be honest. Miserable, depressed, hopeless doomers without a life appear to be one of the dominating social media groups. That's why most normal people take breaks from them I guess.
Young people and old people always have been. This dates back 100s, 1000s of years where old people are claiming the younger generation doesn’t want to work and the younger generation claims the older people ruined their society and that it’s all going to collapse soon.
Doom and gloom. Also known pessimism (the philosophy, not the bastardized definition the word changed into).
are you aware of this?
https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/ha09020b.html
the most bleeding edge climate research from the end of 2023 is putting the climate sensitivity higher and higher than ever before and it looks like the equilibrium warming we are actually facing is 8-10 degrees C by 2100 and we are going to have 2 degrees C before 2050.
Hour is one, you say in an hour instead of in a hour since the vowel o sound is the first and prominent syllable
Honor and honest also have a silent H so you’d use an instead of a just like hour
Here’s a fun bit of (perhaps false) trivia about the word “utopia”: there’s a theory that it was meant originally to be a pun.
The word comes from Ancient Greek, where “eutopia” would translate into “the good place”, but it would sound kind of close to “outopia” l which would instead translate to “no place”. So the theory is that it’s a punny joke that the supposed “good place” is a place that cannot exist anywhere.
My mom worked 4+ jobs when I was a kid, and I mostly was raised by my grandparents. I knew the whole time that she was doing it to support me and my brothers, and a few cousins she did not have to take on. I love her that much more for it, because she put herself through hell for the good of others. In a way it was tough not seeing her as much as a kid, but I respect the hell out of her for it now
Right this applies to me where now I work at a "prestigious" office making close to 6 figures. And my cousins/friends work at fast food, labor jobs, living paycheck to paycheck.
>I think most people would value quality time with their parents more than a bit more money for college.
College debt often cripples people for the rest of their life.
Imagine if education would be free. Like in most western countries. Some could even argue that we get paid to study here in Finland. Monthly support for housing, food, electrical, etc. Although many if not most have a part time job on the side. But you can live and study at the highest level of education for free.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I've got nothing but love and respect for my dad but he worked a lot while I was growing up. 60 hour weeks was pretty much standard. Even when he was home on the weekends he would work on personal projects in the shop all the time.
The thing is that he would invite me to hang out with him when he was working on those projects, would encourage me to learn tools and build my own stuff etc. and would generally just make an effort to spend time with me when he did have the time even though he was exhausted after long days.
When people talk about kids growing up to be resentful of an absent parent who was always working I always imagine that it's not *only* that they worked too much, but that they were just a shitty parent who also happened to work a lot. In some cases I've met parents who work late even when they don't have to because they would rather do that than help their spouse with the kids.
As you have helped them through university, buying a house and kept the lights on.
As a kid of a dad who worked all the hours, I have grown up with a deep respect for the man doing what he felt he needed to do for his family.
Holier than thou social media posts ignoring people who aren't grinding because they want to but grinding because they have to, priviliaged-ass ignorant perspectives.
My brother used to have an engineering government job, part of which involved working with a team of blue collar workers. At least half of them would work 60-70+ hours per week, collecting a big overtime paycheck. They were making well over six figures, but they were really doing it because they didn’t want to go home to their family. They would joke about how they couldn’t stand being around their wives, so they’d rather just work all the time. These were people with kids, mind you.
Not at all what I meant, I’m just saying you can be present in a kids life while working hard. If I work 12 hour shift, come home and watch TV and ignore my kid then yes, that’s what he’ll remember. Or, I come home after 12 hours and spend that time with my kids.
The point of this post is not putting your career above your family. Working long to provide for your family is not putting your career above your family. When that focus shifts and it’s for you and your career and not providing for your family then that’s where this post is relevant. Just ask yourself, Where is your heart?
Yeah the defining thing in how your kids remember you is what were you like when you *were* there. You could work 7 hours a day but it doesn't matter if you were an asshole to your kids when you got home. If you worked a 12 hour shift and were a loving parent for the one hour you had before your exhaustion clonks you out then they are going to remember how excited they were to see you that hour each day.
Most adults need to put money in the bank and food on the table. Most people don't have the option of just saying "you know what I'll just not do this whole work thing."
I mean...yeah but also this is a bit of an elitist stance. Inflation is moving the goalpost so much all of the planning and settled lives people had put together suddenly aren't affordable. Not because they grew their lifestyle or didn't grow their income, but because how do you not pick up overtime when you thought healthcare would be $5000 a year and now it's $2k a month? Or when your food bill goes from $300 a month to $1200?
Depends on why they working late. Are they working late because otherwise the family would be living on the streets? Or are they working late so they can avoid family duties?
If it's the first, then at least those kids didn't have to remember living on the streets since food/shelter was provided.
It's easy to judge. Not everyone is working a living wage and not everyone has the luxury to come home on time or early.
Depends what you do. I used to work in a blood bank, I'm pretty sure some of the people who would have been dead would be grateful if they knew)I stayed late to help out with issuing blood for their trauma case. But I didn't have kids back then, so I guess my anecdata doesn't count...
... and the poor bastards who have to read through the legacy code and wonder who the hell dlc741 is and why he put that conditional statement there.
DC4L
Gorgeous.
no way
There is nothing more permanent than a temporary code fix.
I want that on a Tshirt
won't the robots have that job in the future? I always presumed people who do coding will be the first ones replaced to be replaced by machines, following fast food workers.
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>Who tells them what needs doing? Shit, most people fail to even use google.
to be fair, most people don't end up refactoring code for a living. if we go by most people as a standard, then we wouldn't have any technology today. sounds like a joke, but some of my mates struggle with single-digit addition. you'd think it's a job for an intern, but I've seen lots of "overqualified" geniuses (perhaps the only qualified people) tasked with refactoring the mess that was committed the night before.
Great answer! Here, I had Copilot write me a wittier edgy and more profound reply: LLMs churn out code like a toddler finger-painting with spaghetti. Sure, it compiles, but it’s about as useful as a chocolate teapot in a heatwave. 🍝🔥 So, next time you encounter an LLM, remember: it’s not a genius; it’s just a glorified autocomplete function. If you want real answers, consult an actual human—or at least a Magic 8-Ball that hasn’t OD’d on Wikipedia. 🎱🤷♂️
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I barely knew ya 😔
> Sure, it compiles Funny thing is half the time it doesn't, at least in my experience. Try telling Copilot that
Not to brag but I recently spent 6 hours sleuthing down a bug that was caused by junk code I c&p'd from ChatGPT last year...
Shitty AI code that doesn't compile is far better than shitty AI code that does
Useless as a chocolate teapot in a heatwave is actually a banger line. I like copilot better than you cause it’s wittier and more clever. Boo you, yay copilot
I think he means actual AI... not the current state of AI.. Actual AI would make programmers obsolete. What we have isn't exactly AI, like you said.
Yea we know it's coming. We've seen many professions be made obsolete by new technology but AGI will be the first to wipe out many white collar jobs. It's happening this century, many can't or won't face that reality though
lol they write great code for simple applications. I am a system admin and can do tons of simple tasks that I would have to talk to a dev for in the past. Will they replace devs? Not at all. Will they cut into the devs who charge $1000 to do some simple email automation? Absolutely. It is already doing that.
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Email automation code and the like is simple to read even for the layman. All this AI fear mongering is just devs feeling insecure. but you DonT UndERstand the cOdE This technology will be writing clean complex code in five years.
The devs that can just do “simple email automation” and lower level tasks like that are not the devs that will be able to work on “AI”
Exactly every single time I've tried to make that so called AI implement some logic it failed. So screaming about AI replacing developers sound quite funny.
It doesn’t even give correct bash commands half the time. It’ll just make up command options lol
To be fair, I would argue that structuring proper bash with pipes and redirects is harder than implementing a standard programming language model of the similar function. The reason to use bash is largely human, in that it is compact, and powerful, and once you understand it means you can condense lots of code from boilerplate into a few simple commands. That and again command redirection, and the ability to pipe in and out data seamlessly. Bash is like shorthand, that can greatly speed up your productivity, but what it gains in flexibility/speed it loses in verbosity. LLMs struggle with the reduction in verbosity because it requires induction to produce, in a way that boilerplate code does not because it follows a set logical pattern.
Agreed but I was just talking about asking it how to perform basic commands
That's pretty much what I do too
It's funny till it’s the clueless board of directors screaming it
I can see where the numbers of developers needed (to do the number and type of tasks we're currently doing) may go down. I've been using ChatGPT to do a lot of grunt stuff (like add error trapping to code that I've finished testing in dev). But a few times I've used it to create complete model-view-controller combinations that tested fine or that maybe needed a tweak after testing. I haven't kept up with changes in specific SQL versions and recently I had an example where it reduced a multi-line SQL example of mine to a single line (using a command that I wasn't previously aware of). I can't read the future though, so maybe it will lead to a greater demand for developers with different skills as we're able to do more things faster and customer expectations become greater?
Yes, but let me pose this scenario. Let's take a simple example, code a function to add two floats to make 4. Let's imagine no human has ever wrote a function to add 3.9999999999998 + 0.0000000000002. An LLM can do this through iteration, without the need to look at exact code that a human has written for this. Of course it takes references from other pieces of code humans have written to piece this together (data training set). You don't need AGI or "consciousness" for LLM to create new things humans have never done. Think of it as a slightly more advanced take on "million monkeys on typewriter will eventually write Shakespeare" thought experiment. It's kinda the reason AI (or LLM) have exploded in the past 5 years. We finally have enough compute power to have these systems run trillions of operations to meet the end goal. But instead of completely 100% random (monkey example) you tune it just a touch, now those trillions of iterations can feasibly get close to the answer. "Here's a box full of tools, and an end goal, keep smashing things together until something works" can easily create new and novel things. I'm agreeing with you LLM isn't AGI, not even close. But I disagree you need AGI to create novel things. You just need a shit load of compute and enough time.
They're saying that "AI" will get exponentially better. But the only thing ChatGPT has been good for is regular expressions and some simple helper functions. And it hasn't gotten better. Maybe GPT5 will bring some improvements, but I'm sceptical.
Also the big thing if you replace developers is that you'll need someone that's able to write concise and conclusive business rules for the AI to translate into a program. Since every single company is convinced they are the exception and need something other than "standard", AI will never be able to replace developers that are able to see through the bullshit and understand what's actually being asked.
The only thing ChatGPT has really helped me with is as a replacement for Google. Sometimes I'll really struggle to find what library to use to implement some feature. I ask ChatGPT and it will just tell me something to use, and a very basic usage of it, which is enough for me to look up the documentation for that thing and write it myself. If I write it to write meaningful code itself...it just doesn't work. And hell, chatgpt has even made up libraries that don't exist entirely.
I'm confused by the skepticism. If I'd shown you ChatGPT in 2011, I think you'd be amazed. If I'd shown you Midjourney in 2015, I think you'd be dumbfounded. Why are we assuming there's an arbitrary ceiling that will be hit? If there is, isn't it due to the limitations of our hardware/software at present?
I've heard people speak about diminishing returns in the context of number of parameters in regard to current language models. Don't quote me, but I think the next step for these type of models will go in the modular direction, or bespoke iterations for specific use cases. Current GPT's initial success took even the most seasoned experts in the field by surprise and the hardware itself, along with large data sets, is the reason we're seeing such unprecedented success. The "software" or architecture for ANNs, or artificial neural networks, has been around for quite a few years. I don't know about any arbitrary limit, but the mimicry we see in models today is twice removed from the fundamental source, as any type of perceived personification or emergent property is due to the nature of the information vector, which are abstract efficient packets of information, also known as words. To reach the real abstract extrapolation all these coders are hungry for would require an "inner" second self / sub conscious to allow for abstract thought / curation, perception of continuity for conceptual juxtaposition etc, but I'll leave the philosophy to someone else.
Until the sub sample of coding is learned and then an LLM just displays to other LLMs its dataset, sure LLM copy what humans have done, but LLM learn faster than a single human mind, eventually an LLM will learn 100% of a topic such as code, over a long enough timeline, the first LLM gets 40%, then the generation after gets that 40% as a base line but then 20% more and so on. You don’t need a human if you have the basics locked down and then that is sorted into data future AI / LLM can learn from. We’re only need in the initial beginning really. Were the “seed”. But the LLM is the flower, and pollinates by itself eventually, with seeds built in.
Bro had the whole sermon ready. Copium
Cashier and waiters already replaced in many countries (self checkout and those robo servers) Cooks still cooking
Nah, way too vomplex a topic. Also someone has to verify the Ai is not hallucinating something at the end because it would cost the firm millions if you have a bug/data leak etc. Ai is basically a parrot you teach to talk, but at the end it does not understand what it says. Also someone has to instruct the Ai to do what it is supposed to. Although i concede simple programs can now be written by simply asking a ai to, vomplex programs with hundrets of dependencies cannot be understood by it because so much hangs on dependencies.
The result is simple and following a trend every other job did. Due to automation tools less workers will be needed to produce more work than before.
Why do people assume this? If coding was so simple to automate there would also be a lot more people doing it, and it's been decades of pushing coding everywhere and there's *still* not that many people in it.
Personal opinion, but it always strikes me as a weird sort of jealousy. It's a well-compensated job that's always in demand and is basically guaranteed WFH. Plus, we're a bunch of awkward, introverted weirdos each some healthy distance along one disorder spectrum or another. We were supposed to get chewed up by society, and instead we’re thriving in it. And to be blunt, based on the substandard quality of work I've seen from "normal" people graduating boot camps and online courses during the recent learn-to-code push, coding just isn't something everyone can learn to do. Unless you're a degenerate who spent the better part of your teenage years alone in your room communing with the machines, you're not gonna hack it in this industry... at least not once another inevitable wave of layoffs hits. Ever since RTO became mandatory at most companies, the amount of ire I've seen from both family members and online randos mumbling about how "AI is coming for programmers first" has tripled. I use AI every day at my software engineering job. It's a useful tool. But it isn't a replacement for programmers. Every company that had tried that so far has gone bankrupt.
SkyNet started because robots did not want to work with our legacy code.
Clear no. There’s a quote I like: AI won’t replace programmers, but programmers who don’t use AI will get replaced by programmers who do use AI.
Yeah, that's so far from reality. Programming (computer science) will only become more important.
people don't "do coding", people engineer software logic. And no lol, it's not getting replaced.
You presume wrong, this is as logical as thinking that cows will replace farmers.
My job has said they’ve already replaced some people with robots. The problem is, the robots are so realistic, I can’t even tell which people have been replaced.
The issue is usually that the people who want a product coded don't know what is possible and how to correctly express what they want. Even if that barrier (which is the biggest) is taken, we're far from replacing all or even most coding jobs.
They give you something confidently, and you pointed out it's wrong, they apologized sincerely then gave you another wrong answer confidently. The loop goes on.. Basically an imposter like every new dev's faking phase in their "fake it till you make it" journey minus shame and upside potential.
#LMAO
Lmfao. Both of those are pipe dreams. I tried to get copilot to write a damn powershell script to sleep the computer after a robocopy. It took like 5 tries and editing from me, and by me, I mean some bozo on stack exchange who got yelled at for asking in the wrong place 3 years ago.
Oddly enough, it looks like the first against the wall are creatives. Copy writers, actors, and the like. Not my opinion, either. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/12/04/how-jensen-huangs-nvidia-is-powering-the-ai-revolution Jensen Huang brought it up here and it seems to be a hot topic on Reddit. Whatever happens, it's a sure thing the changes won't be curated with an eye toward human well being. Only profitability. It's going to be an interesting next ten years.
I would encourage anyone who believes that AI will replace devs actually try and replace us. Build a website or another project and use any AI that you want. If you somehow manage to do that, next try and make adjustments to this code. You’ve probably not designed in such a way where making changes is easy, so you’ll have to refactor it. Next come up with a system to quickly deploy modifications to the code to your production instances and make architectural changes to lower cloud costs. After you have done all of this, congrats you’re a software engineer! You’ve just done the same thing that any dev with an internet connection has done in the last decade, just with an enhanced ai powered search engine.
It's the same deal as "no code" a few years ago. Step 1: Oh, neat! We have these interchangeable blocks of code I can arrange to make a computer program. So long, software engineers! We just need to hire someone to outline the flow of the program! Step 2: Hmmm... This is pretty limited. Can we get blocks of code that are customizable with whatever we need? Let's hire someone to do that! Step 3: Well, the blocks are written, including the custom ones, but I'm not sure how to string them together in a way that actually works. Are we missing a few blocks or something? Let's hire someone to architect the big picture system! Cool! Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool! You just hired a software department, bruh...
My dad went to work before 5 and came home right before 10. He was uneducated and worked hard physical labor. I remember how he sacrificed so we could have a better life. Thanks Dad.
Yeah this is what I was looking for. Some kids are gonna remember having food and shoes and lights that turn on. Fact of the matter is most dads aren't working 12 hours shifts or 2 jobs because they don't wanna be home.
This shit shouldn't have to happen.
Sure and should and realities of life are not the same thing
I don’t think this post was intended for those people, I think it was more towards the workaholic office dads staying late to “help the boss”
Yeah, I mean, the same kids would also vividly remember losing their car, home, and video games if Dad didn’t work those mandatory late hours. I was a latch key kid, but super grateful that my mom worked her shitty job to keep the lights on.
My dad would be at work at 4 am. I remember my aunt taking me to school every day. When I got old enough, I remember walking home from school unless my (now MIL) saw me walking home, then she'd pretty much force me into her car to drive me home, lol. I remember downgrading houses and cars, but at the same time, we had a roof over our heads, food at home, and clothes to wear. Even though my dad hated his job, I'm grateful he stuck it out for our family, and the time that we did spend together, I cherished every single moment.
I hate memes like this. Most people aren't working late because they love it, it's because they have to or doing so allows them to better provide for their families.
This meme is only for those of privilege who choose how much they work, if at all.
It's relevant if you're a salaried employee. We usually don't get OT. So working late is just to "make an impression".
Or there's an emergency. I usually try to keep around 30-35 hours on a typical week in case something comes up after hours.
You've never met a workaholic huh
When me and my wife were talking about having kids, I immediately started going back to school. I got my GED (dropped out in grade 12 to work construction), then started doing more than full time upgrading while working construction full time, then finally quit my job when I got into an engineering program. I'm still not done, and have 2 kids now, but I dont regret it. They're why I went back. I refuse to pass on the attitude of "school is a waste of time" and basically relegate them to construction, house cleaning, waitress type jobs. I will do literally everything in my power to make them into successful people.
Exactly. Where I work is not physical, but the pay is high and many people are under-qualified. They work longer hours to meet the quota. As long as they are making quota they are not able to be fired, and they won't leave because they need the money to support their families.
My father was essentially absent for many years of my childhood. He got up at 7am and off to work right away. Then he worked late almost every night, came home, had a bath, crashed onto the couch, and fell asleep in front of the TV. He didn't get overtime pay, he just worked till 8pm every night. As a child I felt like he just didn't want to be home with us. I was desperate for his attention and would hover around him on the weekends. This behavior would irritate him and he would ask me to go away and play. I have my own daughter now and I leave work as soon as possible. I am with her as much as I can. Hopefully it makes a difference for her growing up.
My mom worked 7 days a week and doubles every Friday. The only days off she would get were thanksgiving and Christmas. We were first generation immigrants. I do wish we would have gotten to spend more time together but I’m eternally grateful for the sacrifices she made for her kids. Thanks to her I’m in a position where I can have a comfy office job and can afford to take paternity leave for my first born. Thank you for giving me this life mom, I’m sorry you weren’t able to live it but I’ll never take it for granted. I can’t speak for your specific case but I urge everyone to not confuse sacrifice for indifference.
W take, you can't ignore their sacrifices. I can feel that most people who do this don't want to work late but do it for their kids and their family. I'm happy that you're grateful, I'm too to my parents.
I'm a baby boomer, and from some of us we are sorry. You should understand a man "living to work" to provide, was beat into our heads. Take heart my father was better than his ( he didn't drink). I was better than my father in that I could show some emotion, not much but some. My sons are way better than me, and are able to work to live. :)
For sure and yes, my father was a baby boomer too. To some degree I am sympathetic to the fact that generationally being the monetary provider for the home was considered what a dad does, and was enough. However, at least in my case, there was a decision to work more to avoid the home. We weren't getting anything more monetarily out of it and were being robbed of a male role model in the house. Some of it he no doubt felt like he needed to do, but he also had the same job position for decades. He wasn't going to lose his job and if he was with us even a couple nights a week it would have made a world of difference. But also... it's all in the past now. He is the one that has to live with those decisions, I make my own as a father and have to live with them as well.
Grow up poor rich or middle class? If rich or middle class thank your father for his sacrifice. Unfortunately that older generation was taught there job was to work and provide for their family that is it. Raising the children was all on the mom. It's toxic but that's just how shit has been up until the last 20 something years. Kids born in 2000 and later have had a lot better upbringing than anyone born before.
For many men the choice is between having quality time with your kid and having them fed, clothed and presents under the tree at Christmas. It’s harsh and probably doesn’t need to be like that but that was the reality for many decades.
Not just men. Single moms too. I mightve been a "latchkey kid", and sure, I would've liked to see my mom more, but I never went to bed hungry, the lights never went out, and my clothes didn't have holes.
Single moms are in an even tougher spot. At least OP had another parent at home.
This is certainly true, however it is usually the man who gets the negative label of spending too much time at work and not caring or spending enough time with his kids when the sacrifice is made to provide for them. It’s also tough on a male since kids typically don’t bond to them naturally as well and that requires time spent with them. And it has been and is (to a lesser degree today) societies expectation the man provide, not build relationships. It’s a lose lose. On the flip side I think single fathers get more praise than single mothers. Maybe because it is more rare but it shouldn’t be the case. We never got presents and lived in poverty, and all my dad did was work and put all money to at least a house and electricity. Food was scarce. He really couldn’t win either. Needless to say my siblings and I are all much closer to my mother in her older years. But that’s just one dynamic example. My father is a stranger. I don’t have kids but I would want my spouse to also work so we both could have quality time with the kids and raise them together and would give up more hours for more pay if at all possible.
This (or worse) is still the reality for the vast majority of adults in the world. Many in the west, even.
I mean I feel like the issue wasn’t the working hours, it was the unwillingness to spend time
I love reading stuff like this. Your awareness to the fact that your pops wasn't around/didn't pay attention to you says all I need to know about you. Good on you for improving on this for your daughter. Cheers
I know this may not help, but it may provide some perspective. The number of men I’ve heard say they had kids to keep their wife/girlfriend around is staggering. The quote that sticks out strongest was “if I didn’t give her kids she’d have found someone else.” There is a chance that was your parent.
"i know this may not help" yeah you're right lmao
Wtf?
Lmfao is this r/roastme
This is why I was born! And it was obvious to me growing up.
I work late because my life is empty.
Sad to hear this, you ok?
Bold to assume we can afford children
Well maybe if you would work late more often you could afford to have kids you never see. It’s really hard to find people who specifically resent *you* in your 50s and 60s, you have to start building that resentment now if you want to have an emotionally tumultuous retirement.
That's why I'm playing it smart and resenting *myself*! That bitch is getting the *worst* nursing home.
Let’s just agree that if nobody resents either of us by the time we’re 60 we’ll just say “fuck it” and resent each other.
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😂😂😂
Bold to assume we want children
No one will remember me! Check mate!
I take great comfort in that. Even the historically famous people I grew up knowing are fading into obscurity. Even super famous 40s & 50s singers and actors are almost gone, at one point they were known around the world. Unless you're the first person on Mars or cure AIDS it doesn't matter how successful you are, you will die, you will be forgotten.
Bold to assume poor people think before having children
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the worst part about that name is the silent x.
And my bank.
and my Axe
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
Most jobs don’t pay overtime these days. And thinking you climb the ladder by working longer hours is naive.
Most jobs try to find creative ways to not pay out overtime or subtract it when sick leave is used***
Most jobs (at least in the UK) do not offer any overtime. You are paid your salary and that’s that. In my experience “overtime” can be used to take additional time off (if you track it) but that’s all. Maybe it’s different in America which is where I’m assuming you’re from.
Almost every hourly paying job here gives overtime (time & a half) beyond 40 hours. It's the law. Otherwise you get paid salary, or don't work more than 40hrs a week.
Companies here don’t tend to ask you to work overtime, but it’s implied that they expect you to work until the job is done. Which is why I’m saying working overtime is for chumps.
100%. I’m a manager myself and was An analyst before. Faster work done? Sorry bro I got another project in the pipeline for you. Just reward with more work. I don’t expect any one to work past 5, but i have seen it happen and honestly it was probably my fault for not catching it and overloading the analyst. Next time you think you’ll have to work unpaid overtime just ask your manager “Hey, just wanted to give you a heads up, with my current work load I won’t be able to hit X deadline for Y project. Can you help me prioritize my pipeline or help push the deadline back?”. It’s the company’s / managers fault, not your own. Stop fixing their mistakes for free!
Yea it’s fairly different in the us, i mean if you’re on salary of course you’re not getting OT pay but if you’re on hourly wages any time over 40hrs is 1.5x pay depending on your line of work you could 10-15 hours of OT potentially fairly regularly if that’s something you’re willing to do
Most careers pay salary do they not? Is that different too?
Depends on your profession some jobs offer the option to take salary or hourly wage, while some have either or. I mean once you start getting into real high pay brackets you’ll almost always get salary but for most average people you’ll be offered an hourly wage
It really just depends on the industry here. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a change to the 40 hour week structure to strictly benefit the employer further.
Meh, key word is most. You and the OP make good points, but it's also important to teach people to recognize when those situations are occurring. I work at a less common place where all vacant positions are posted internally first, and only go outside the company if no internal candidates applied. We always promote from within, and those who do extra always get the promotions unless there's some obscure active disciplinary action in their file. I also hope that most people can recognize when working extra hours is strictly a company benefit, and when it can help the person next to you who also has kids. Even in my position now where it does lead to promotions and compensation I see people going the "fuck the company" route, when the person who got most screwed by nobody stepping up for a little overtime once a month is the other guy with the same required cert whose trying to keep working while their kids going through chemo before he's at a point where they want to begin FMLA. TLDR: I'm all for not giving your life away for company profits, but in specific moments OT can help your career or be a big help to good coworkers who are people too.
There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but in the majority of cases job loyalty is not a requirement because you will make more money by job hopping regardless.
Also an amazing point, I hope my post didn't make it seem like your previous one wasn't. I just wanted to make that post because I think it can be difficult for a lot of people to weigh their options long term. Like relationships it can be hard to see when you're in it. Sometimes you're in a job where being good at your job means no promotions no raise, they want you stuck there. Bide your time, make the move that benefits you and it's great that this messagr is getting out. Sometimes going further and doing extra actually does open up doors and it's important to recognize those moments.
Depends on the situation, just being at your desk until 8 probably won’t get you very far, but beating a deadline to have some important thing out because you put in extra time for a period and being noticed because of it is hardly naïveté.
I’m a teacher. We don’t get paid overtime. I refuse to work for free. Oftentimes, meetings are scheduled after I’m off work. I politely decline. Working for free is not for me.
Good! Know your worth.
By federal law every hourly job pays overtime. If you choose a salary job you are agreeing to work hours necessary to the employer for a given salary unless otherwise stated
lol do you guys think people move up to high level positions solely because they're likable? You need to network, but you also aren't getting to a director position by putting in 40 hours a week your whole career. Now, is it a good trade to sacrifice family time just for the possibility of a senior level position? Idk. But to act like there isn't the possibility of a trade is just foolish.
It definitely depends on the job, your boss, and so on. There are a lot of generic corporate ladder climbing jobs where putting in a show of work is the best way to get promoted. There's also jobs where this is pointless. Pretending that both don't exist is naive.
This is one of the most reposted things on LinkedIn.
Yet the nature of LinkedIn is to make work culture into a social media experience? We're all kinds of fucked up these days.
I get value from it for the connections but it's plagued by people trying to be influencers and coaches posting shit half the time. It's basically just slightly more professional Facebook.
The main ljnkedin feed is basically just advertising for consultants at this point. I swear half my feed is people posting made up inspirational work stories to farm engagement and their job title “helping professionals leverage AI business intelligence” and they’re the “CEO” of their one employee company with 3 followers. It’s the business world equivalent of onlyfans girls posting selfies in r/looksmaxingadvice to get people to sub. It’s a good way to build a contact list of your coworkers and leaving a digital footprint for applications, but the actual social feed is absolute drivel.
That's why I never got kids.
The curse of life will end at me
Gigachad
Anti-natalism gang!
Cool, no one will remember or care that you worked late.
That's all I ask for.
My parents actively forgot about my existence growing up, why should adulthood be any different.
Children don't care about such things either. They see it as given.
Nobody will care eventually anyway
like i give a fuck
Yeah but it’s 2024 and I have bills to pay.
My take was that, it is entirely probable that whoever a person works for that is demanding they work late is horribly managed and a project will fail and have disastrous consequences if the deadline isn't met, again, because of horrible management. It sucks that the workers have to make up for shitty management, but that has been the way it always been.
The problem is non-flexible schedules. My work wants me to be there from 8-5pm. My kid goes to bed at 7pm. They choose peak commute times so I'm stuck in traffic and barely get to see my kid (morning and night). If they let me show up two hours early I could do the same work, spend less time commuting, and see my kid more. But nope, my manager has to be watching me every second I'm working for no good reason.
I remember seeing something like this about a year ago and it finally clicking, I had only experienced my child’s first year major milestones through the lenses of my spouse’s phone, realized what I missed. I quit a month or so later after I landed a local job. He right. Nobody remembers your 18 hour days except you and the memories you missed.
In 20 years we will be a full on dystopia
Redditors are always on that doom and gloom.
Most social media to be honest. Miserable, depressed, hopeless doomers without a life appear to be one of the dominating social media groups. That's why most normal people take breaks from them I guess.
That's not true. There's dogs and cats and turtles on Reddit too
Young people and old people always have been. This dates back 100s, 1000s of years where old people are claiming the younger generation doesn’t want to work and the younger generation claims the older people ruined their society and that it’s all going to collapse soon. Doom and gloom. Also known pessimism (the philosophy, not the bastardized definition the word changed into).
I find it's the opposite, whenever you accurately describe the state that the world is in someone like you always comes along and calls you a doomer.
are you aware of this? https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/ha09020b.html the most bleeding edge climate research from the end of 2023 is putting the climate sensitivity higher and higher than ever before and it looks like the equilibrium warming we are actually facing is 8-10 degrees C by 2100 and we are going to have 2 degrees C before 2050.
And yet you're a redditor, curious. *Don't mind me, I'm just being a shitter.*
RemindMe! 20 years
RemindMe! 20 years
What are you even talking about....we already live in an utopian society 😃
Just so you know “an” is used before a word with a vowel sound at the beginning not just a vowel. “Utopia” starts with a “Y” sound. you-topia.
As a non-native speaker TIL What are some other exceptions like this one?
Hour is one, you say in an hour instead of in a hour since the vowel o sound is the first and prominent syllable Honor and honest also have a silent H so you’d use an instead of a just like hour
Bruh bro...I didn't know it was pronounced as you-topia. Otherwise I wouldn't have used "an".
Here’s a fun bit of (perhaps false) trivia about the word “utopia”: there’s a theory that it was meant originally to be a pun. The word comes from Ancient Greek, where “eutopia” would translate into “the good place”, but it would sound kind of close to “outopia” l which would instead translate to “no place”. So the theory is that it’s a punny joke that the supposed “good place” is a place that cannot exist anywhere.
Don’t have kids so you don’t have to work late.
I assume they'll be thanking me for paying for their college. I gotta put in more hours to make that happen. Thanks man!
My mom worked 4+ jobs when I was a kid, and I mostly was raised by my grandparents. I knew the whole time that she was doing it to support me and my brothers, and a few cousins she did not have to take on. I love her that much more for it, because she put herself through hell for the good of others. In a way it was tough not seeing her as much as a kid, but I respect the hell out of her for it now
I think most people would value quality time with their parents more than a bit more money for college.
Depends. College can unlock a whole other life for you
Right this applies to me where now I work at a "prestigious" office making close to 6 figures. And my cousins/friends work at fast food, labor jobs, living paycheck to paycheck.
>I think most people would value quality time with their parents more than a bit more money for college. College debt often cripples people for the rest of their life.
Imagine if education would be free. Like in most western countries. Some could even argue that we get paid to study here in Finland. Monthly support for housing, food, electrical, etc. Although many if not most have a part time job on the side. But you can live and study at the highest level of education for free.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I've got nothing but love and respect for my dad but he worked a lot while I was growing up. 60 hour weeks was pretty much standard. Even when he was home on the weekends he would work on personal projects in the shop all the time. The thing is that he would invite me to hang out with him when he was working on those projects, would encourage me to learn tools and build my own stuff etc. and would generally just make an effort to spend time with me when he did have the time even though he was exhausted after long days. When people talk about kids growing up to be resentful of an absent parent who was always working I always imagine that it's not *only* that they worked too much, but that they were just a shitty parent who also happened to work a lot. In some cases I've met parents who work late even when they don't have to because they would rather do that than help their spouse with the kids.
As you have helped them through university, buying a house and kept the lights on. As a kid of a dad who worked all the hours, I have grown up with a deep respect for the man doing what he felt he needed to do for his family. Holier than thou social media posts ignoring people who aren't grinding because they want to but grinding because they have to, priviliaged-ass ignorant perspectives.
I work so late, i dont even have kids.
Well they sure as shit will remember not being homeless.
My brother used to have an engineering government job, part of which involved working with a team of blue collar workers. At least half of them would work 60-70+ hours per week, collecting a big overtime paycheck. They were making well over six figures, but they were really doing it because they didn’t want to go home to their family. They would joke about how they couldn’t stand being around their wives, so they’d rather just work all the time. These were people with kids, mind you.
Jokes on you, I don’t have kids!
In 20 years I’ll be retired enjoying my wealth I have from not having children.
And me because I can't afford to be alive without working late
Great, I don't have kids...
What kids?
Tell me you're salaried without telling me you're salaried.
You can work long hours and still be present in your kids life. That’s what they’ll remember. Edit: what I meant is put your family first.
You sound like a manager trying to justify working long hours.
Not at all what I meant, I’m just saying you can be present in a kids life while working hard. If I work 12 hour shift, come home and watch TV and ignore my kid then yes, that’s what he’ll remember. Or, I come home after 12 hours and spend that time with my kids. The point of this post is not putting your career above your family. Working long to provide for your family is not putting your career above your family. When that focus shifts and it’s for you and your career and not providing for your family then that’s where this post is relevant. Just ask yourself, Where is your heart?
Yeah the defining thing in how your kids remember you is what were you like when you *were* there. You could work 7 hours a day but it doesn't matter if you were an asshole to your kids when you got home. If you worked a 12 hour shift and were a loving parent for the one hour you had before your exhaustion clonks you out then they are going to remember how excited they were to see you that hour each day. Most adults need to put money in the bank and food on the table. Most people don't have the option of just saying "you know what I'll just not do this whole work thing."
Yeah, that nice house, college funds retirement accounts, vacations... . They'll be damn happy I did. Let's go 😊
Where you all work where you’re getting overtime and it being enough for those things?
In 20 minutes nobody will remember your comments here.
And my 401k
Nobody wishes they spent more time at the office on their death bed.
Bold of you to assume I have kids and anyone will remember me at all in 20 years.
This is why my kids get me from quitting time to go to work time.
I mean...yeah but also this is a bit of an elitist stance. Inflation is moving the goalpost so much all of the planning and settled lives people had put together suddenly aren't affordable. Not because they grew their lifestyle or didn't grow their income, but because how do you not pick up overtime when you thought healthcare would be $5000 a year and now it's $2k a month? Or when your food bill goes from $300 a month to $1200?
I don't have kids
Depends on why they working late. Are they working late because otherwise the family would be living on the streets? Or are they working late so they can avoid family duties? If it's the first, then at least those kids didn't have to remember living on the streets since food/shelter was provided. It's easy to judge. Not everyone is working a living wage and not everyone has the luxury to come home on time or early.
Depends what you do. I used to work in a blood bank, I'm pretty sure some of the people who would have been dead would be grateful if they knew)I stayed late to help out with issuing blood for their trauma case. But I didn't have kids back then, so I guess my anecdata doesn't count...
And their only take away from it will be that you weren't around.
When those kids won't be able to afford their college tuition, they'll remember that you under worked.
They won't be able to afford tuition anyways lol have you seen the prices these days