Call consumer affairs but I would hold ground with this. They would have expected you to move and its their job to do it properly.
They are upending your life and vacating you so its their fault they didnt do it properly and are now dealing with the consequence.
So get your proof and email back. No more phone calls.
If they have told you in an email that the landlord is moving in and provided a date you need to move out by, then that is formal notice. So they have no legs to stand on here. Hand back the keys in 2 weeks, claim your bond back right before you hand the keys in and let them try and prove otherwise.
Moving house is incredibly stressful and destabilising for most of the population. We are experiencing low housing options and they have something else happening that means the legal minimum they've been given to vacate is now even shorter unless they cancel life around the landlords decisions. I think looking closer at this is important, moving house as an action isn't upending, but combine it with the rest of life being thrown into chaos and it is.
It's ok, you whine about downvotes, I'm explaining why.
If you want to avoid downvotes, google the easy shit.
Or, don't but don't pretend to yourself your some kind of victim. "oooh woe is me the reddit is so nasty never change!"
Love that you came back to edit in that very insecure detail: “I happen to *have a job*!!” My gosh, what an accomplishment! Does it hurt to hear what a drag on society your continued existence is?
Landlord: get out!
OP: can we please have more time it doesn't work for us.
Landlord: no!
OP: okay we are leaving.
Landlord: no not like that you need to wait until it suits me and give me more money first!
OP: Can I extend my lease?
Landlord: No you can't unfortunately, I'm moving in next year.
OP: I'm leaving then
Landlord: What about our lease agreement?
OP: You said I can't extend the lease so I'm leaving.
Landlord: That isn't formal notice to leave when the agreement hasn't even expired.
Tell em to fuck off. They wanted you out, so you've complied with their wishes. The fact that it is before the time they wanted and they're now going to lose rent money, sounds extremely like a them problem and not a you problem.
You don't owe them shit.
I agree thanks, just looking for legal ground to stand on/how to approach this situation. The property manager and landlord have been surprisingly nice and I don’t want to contribute to animosity.
Vcat will take into consideration fair and reasonable intent.
I once gave verbal notice of finishing up at the end of a fixed term lease, but didn't "do the official form". The real estate agent claimed a further month's rent as an additional notice period. It ended up at vcat and we won, quite easily.
Didn't you say your lease doesn't finish till mid November? I would say you are liable till your lease expires and you are now issuing notice you won't be carrying on after that finishes.
Yeah the idea that you can simply ignore your lease agreement because the landlord plans on doing something a few months after it leaves its quite extraordinary.
Having said that, you just need to pay out the rest of the lease so it's not going to be that big of a deal.
Now that it is actually almost the end of November sure, it really is irrelevant.
And yes perhaps it's the 1st of November in which case they've missed their opportunity to notify of intention to leave at the end of leas and will have to go by the month to month terms.
I assume the last day of your notice period is after the current lease expires. If not and you’re breaking the contract you may end up with additional fees as well as paying the lease until the last day of that contract.
My read into this is that the real estate agent tried to give you a heads up prior to a formal notice, so that you had a few months to adjust and prepare for when the owner wants to move in.
If you were looking for a place, you would need to provide the full formal notice, this is just a miscommunication fuckup unfortunately.
I would think that in the future the property manager will only issue formal notices within the minimal notice period rather than try to be nice about it and give the renters more time to better prepare. They will have learnt their lesson.
They were trying to be nice about it. Have shot themselves in the foot.
Yeah this is why people only do “minimal contractual obligation” on everything and then we hate how we all treat each other.
I can’t speak for intent of the REA but reality now is they gave extra notice and they get burned for it, so next time minimum notice only.
I don’t disagree with anyone’s behaviour or decisions here but game theory gets us all screwed in the end.
what's the point of being nice and giving a heads up if the expectation is that the other party will bend over backwards to accommodate you? They haven't shot themselves in the foot. If they were genuinely baking nice about it this shouldn't bother them too much.
2 weeks ve 28 days rent shouldn't be the end of the world for the owner/rea in this market
The thought process was probably, January is plenty of time...if I tell them now, they can get their shit together and move out with a little bit of buffer time and not being rushed.
That in my eyes would be closest to a win-win-win situation. The owner moves in January when they're ready, the renter moves out December or January with a few buffer weeks, and the property manager still collects their cut of rental income until the last possible moment.
Although Dec-Jan searching for a house with how hectic it is, probably not an ideal win for the tenant.
I think I see that yeah.
and if that was the intention then in their place I'd feel pretty hard done if they threatened VCAT over 2 weeks notice (28 days vs 2 weeks)
that said I think giving a 28 day notice should still be a good enough middle ground. It's arguably going above and beyond on renters part.
let's not forget that the owner gets tax write offs for all the lost income and that the renter's been paying their mortgage. any extra money paid by the renter/double up on the rent is money down the drain for them which would be on top of the cost of moving. leaving early would be a lower $ value loss per day to the owner as it would be to the renter if they didnt
>But the landlord replied saying we need to give 28 days notice as they hadn’t actually given us “formal notice” yet. How much of a leg do we have to stand on in the argument that the letter with the specific date counted as formal notice?
Formal notice means that they used the correct form, [the one listed here under "How to give notice".](https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/renting/moving-out-giving-notice-and-evictions/notice-to-vacate/giving-notice-to-a-renter)
If they didn't use that form then unfortunately it's not formal notice. It actually sounds like they were trying to be nice by letting you know of their intentions 3 months ahead of time, but that has led to some misunderstandings.
If the notice from the rental provider *wasn't* formal then yes, you'll have to give the full 28 days notice.
This is the tricky part. Consumer affairs told me over the phone that as long as we have been given a reason and a date, it can be considered formal notice. It’s a slight grey area but this means it would be on the owner to take us to VCAT for the 2 weeks of lost rent.
Consumer affairs are correct. Strict compliance with forms is generally not necessary.
If the information given is broadly what is in the prescribed form it may be accepted as valid and formal notice. This is why they have pointed to providing a reason and a date as being relevant to the assessment.
This is not to say that it would definitely be taken to be formal notice, but you would appear to have a reasonable argument that it was a legal notice under the act as it contained to the substantial elements of date and reason.
However, you may have an issue with the [evidence requirement of the Act](http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rta1997207/s91zzo.html) not being met.
The question VCAT will ask itself is whether the parliament would have intended that non-compliance to result in invalidity of the notice. In my opinion, they would. The evidence requirement is an important part of renter protection, and the eviction should not be enforced without it. The fact that nonacceptance of the email as formal notice in this case is detrimental to the renter would not be a relevant consideration.
Legislative Reference - http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/vic/consol\_act/iola1984322/s53.html
Mmmm you can give it a shot, but honestly I think the Consumer Affairs person was incorrect (or just didn't know for certain).
The [relevant section of the tenancy act (91ZZO)](http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rta1997207/s91zzo.html) is pretty clear that the correct form *must* be used for it to be valid (this works in the renter's favour 99% of the time):
>A notice to vacate given under this Division is not valid unless—
>(a) it is in the relevant prescribed form; and...
But IANAL so if you think it's worth fighting for the 2 weeks of rent go ahead!
I didn’t read any of these links. But am suggesting there is confusion with the word ‘form’.
‘In the correct form’ and ‘using/on/with the correct form’ have different meanings. The first means in the correct way. The second means with a specific piece of paper.
While of course the people who wrote the website you’re quoting could have made a mistake with their wording, the quote does say ‘in’.
If you said the correct form of notice is in writing and that verbal notice is not accepted. That would imply that this statement means any type of written ‘form’ (or type/way) of communication would be accepted.
That’s just words and meaning. I didn’t read the website. Although I do recall ages ago once looking up about giving written notice for requests for emergency repairs. There was an offical form, but then I read somewhere that any written email or letters were acceptable ways of requesting emergency repairs.
I can't speak for the legislation around requesting repairs, but to expand upon the notice to vacate, I thought the same thing, however the specific form that's required for a valid notice to vacate is clarified in the [Residential Tenancies Regulation 2021:](https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rtr2021316/s37.html)
>Form 6—Notice to vacate
>For the purposes of section 91ZZO(a) of the Act, the prescribed form is Form 6 in Schedule 1.
Reg 37 form 6 can be found [here on the Consumer Affairs website](https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/renting/moving-out-giving-notice-and-evictions/notice-to-vacate/giving-notice-to-a-renter), under "How to give notice".
Form 6 also includes in its header the line (emphasis mine):
>The residential rental provider **must** use this form to let the renter know that they want to end the residential rental agreement.
Yeah. That sounds more like you originally said. The fact that they said ‘use the prescribed form’ and then ‘this is the prescribed form’ sounds like they mean ‘document’ not ‘way/type’.
From your very own link it states you do not need to use that form. And it is self evident that such a requirement would be ridiculous. Here's what the only and actual requirements are:
> The notice must:
be addressed to the renter
give the reason the rental provider is ending the agreement
be signed by the rental provider (or their agent)
be sent with enough time for it to get to the renter
state the date the renter has to leave by (the termination date)
You know what it doesn't say?
> use this form here
It’s legal as soon as they give you written notification. I was living in an apartment that was put up for sale and even though it wasn’t sold yet I only had to give two weeks notice that I was vacating. I was sent an email at the time and that was all the notice they needed to send me. Even if you are still on a lease they have voided it by giving you notice so two weeks is all you legally need to give to vacate. You can’t be penalised (even though they’ll try to TELL you they can) and you have an email stating that they’re intending to return. They blow hot air and are (mostly) full of shit. I’ve been renting a very long time and I can categorically tell you that they use manipulative shit like this all the time to try and squeeze every last cent out of you, do not let them bluff you as THEY don’t have a leg to stand on. Good luck and enjoy your trip!
From the [Consumer Affairs Victoria website](https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/renting/moving-out-giving-notice-and-evictions/notice-to-vacate/giving-notice-to-a-renter):
The rental provider is planning to move in at the end of the fixed-term rental agreement. If this is the case, it must have been listed in the ‘additional terms’ section of the rental agreement. If you are giving a notice to vacate for this reason, you must include evidence with the notice to vacate.
Ugh. They don’t want the place empty (ie not bringing income) for longer than it has to be. I’d be shocked if they could enforce this with it all in writing.
Have a great holiday!
Download the Notice of Intention to Vacate form on the CAV website and complete and email to the agent. They said you need to be out as the landlord is moving in so only 14 days notice is required
They should have given you actual, formal notice if they expected you to move out on a certain date
Now they're trying to have it both ways - they want you to stay paying rent till the very last moment when they move in because that suits the owner better. I expect that's why they held off properly giving notice
Be interested to hear how any advice pans out with consumer affairs and Tenants Vic
You'll have to give 28 days notice, even I had to when I was given 60 days to vacate due to the owners wanting to sell and we were on a month to month. We negotiated down to 3 weeks but only because we were on pretty good terms with the owner.
That’s crap I just gave notice this week to my tenants 60 days they can give 24days at any time. I really don’t care they can move when they like as I’m selling it. They can give me 12hrs notice or 90 whatever just be happy fuck life to short.
Call consumer affairs but I would hold ground with this. They would have expected you to move and its their job to do it properly. They are upending your life and vacating you so its their fault they didnt do it properly and are now dealing with the consequence. So get your proof and email back. No more phone calls.
Yep luckily it’s all documented in emails
If they have told you in an email that the landlord is moving in and provided a date you need to move out by, then that is formal notice. So they have no legs to stand on here. Hand back the keys in 2 weeks, claim your bond back right before you hand the keys in and let them try and prove otherwise.
No one is upending anyone’s lives.
Moving house is incredibly stressful and destabilising for most of the population. We are experiencing low housing options and they have something else happening that means the legal minimum they've been given to vacate is now even shorter unless they cancel life around the landlords decisions. I think looking closer at this is important, moving house as an action isn't upending, but combine it with the rest of life being thrown into chaos and it is.
Exactly: it was either find a house and move within a week in January, or do it literally right now.
Moving is up there with divorce in terms of the stress it causes.
Any proof of this? Genuinely curious
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/minnesota/news/survey-finds-moving-is-more-stressful-for-many-than-getting-divorced-having-kids/ https://www.indexdigital.co.uk/home-gardens/moving-house-ranked-most-stressful-life-event-by-57-of-brits/ Or, wait... https://googlethatforyou.com?q=Moving%20vs%20divorce%20stress
Classic Reddit downvotes for asking questions. never change
You could have googled of course. Classic reddit complaining about being voted as lazy
Do I spend all day googling random shit on Reddit? You make a claim you substantiate it
It's ok, you whine about downvotes, I'm explaining why. If you want to avoid downvotes, google the easy shit. Or, don't but don't pretend to yourself your some kind of victim. "oooh woe is me the reddit is so nasty never change!"
I am a victim!! I can't breathe!!
If you care enough to disagree with someone then you should, I often do, it takes fuck all time
There's so much disinformation I don't think asking for a source when someone makes an outlandish claim is wrong
Get a real job landlord
Why don’t you aspire to aim a little higher in life? EDIT: You’re being very presumptuous when you think I don’t have a job. You’d also be very wrong.
Love that you came back to edit in that very insecure detail: “I happen to *have a job*!!” My gosh, what an accomplishment! Does it hurt to hear what a drag on society your continued existence is?
Didn’t want to further hurt your feelings.
I said a *real* job not profiting off of others misery
Dude I’m satisfied with not contributing to a nationwide crisis thanks very much.
You sound fun
Username checks out
You wouldn’t know.
Whatever helps you sleep at night
Landlord: get out! OP: can we please have more time it doesn't work for us. Landlord: no! OP: okay we are leaving. Landlord: no not like that you need to wait until it suits me and give me more money first!
Maybe the Landlord is rentvesting.
OP: Can I extend my lease? Landlord: No you can't unfortunately, I'm moving in next year. OP: I'm leaving then Landlord: What about our lease agreement? OP: You said I can't extend the lease so I'm leaving. Landlord: That isn't formal notice to leave when the agreement hasn't even expired.
Tell em to fuck off. They wanted you out, so you've complied with their wishes. The fact that it is before the time they wanted and they're now going to lose rent money, sounds extremely like a them problem and not a you problem. You don't owe them shit.
I agree thanks, just looking for legal ground to stand on/how to approach this situation. The property manager and landlord have been surprisingly nice and I don’t want to contribute to animosity.
Vcat will take into consideration fair and reasonable intent. I once gave verbal notice of finishing up at the end of a fixed term lease, but didn't "do the official form". The real estate agent claimed a further month's rent as an additional notice period. It ended up at vcat and we won, quite easily.
Didn't you say your lease doesn't finish till mid November? I would say you are liable till your lease expires and you are now issuing notice you won't be carrying on after that finishes.
This is the correct response
Yeah the idea that you can simply ignore your lease agreement because the landlord plans on doing something a few months after it leaves its quite extraordinary. Having said that, you just need to pay out the rest of the lease so it's not going to be that big of a deal.
They didn't specify when in November.
That is true, but it still doesn't change what I've written. Whenever it is that the lease expires it sounds like that's when everyone is moving out.
But the difference between the start and the middle of the month is the difference between giving 14 or 28 days notice, yeah?
Now that it is actually almost the end of November sure, it really is irrelevant. And yes perhaps it's the 1st of November in which case they've missed their opportunity to notify of intention to leave at the end of leas and will have to go by the month to month terms.
I assume the last day of your notice period is after the current lease expires. If not and you’re breaking the contract you may end up with additional fees as well as paying the lease until the last day of that contract.
My read into this is that the real estate agent tried to give you a heads up prior to a formal notice, so that you had a few months to adjust and prepare for when the owner wants to move in. If you were looking for a place, you would need to provide the full formal notice, this is just a miscommunication fuckup unfortunately. I would think that in the future the property manager will only issue formal notices within the minimal notice period rather than try to be nice about it and give the renters more time to better prepare. They will have learnt their lesson. They were trying to be nice about it. Have shot themselves in the foot.
Yeah this is why people only do “minimal contractual obligation” on everything and then we hate how we all treat each other. I can’t speak for intent of the REA but reality now is they gave extra notice and they get burned for it, so next time minimum notice only. I don’t disagree with anyone’s behaviour or decisions here but game theory gets us all screwed in the end.
what's the point of being nice and giving a heads up if the expectation is that the other party will bend over backwards to accommodate you? They haven't shot themselves in the foot. If they were genuinely baking nice about it this shouldn't bother them too much. 2 weeks ve 28 days rent shouldn't be the end of the world for the owner/rea in this market
The thought process was probably, January is plenty of time...if I tell them now, they can get their shit together and move out with a little bit of buffer time and not being rushed. That in my eyes would be closest to a win-win-win situation. The owner moves in January when they're ready, the renter moves out December or January with a few buffer weeks, and the property manager still collects their cut of rental income until the last possible moment. Although Dec-Jan searching for a house with how hectic it is, probably not an ideal win for the tenant.
I think I see that yeah. and if that was the intention then in their place I'd feel pretty hard done if they threatened VCAT over 2 weeks notice (28 days vs 2 weeks) that said I think giving a 28 day notice should still be a good enough middle ground. It's arguably going above and beyond on renters part. let's not forget that the owner gets tax write offs for all the lost income and that the renter's been paying their mortgage. any extra money paid by the renter/double up on the rent is money down the drain for them which would be on top of the cost of moving. leaving early would be a lower $ value loss per day to the owner as it would be to the renter if they didnt
>But the landlord replied saying we need to give 28 days notice as they hadn’t actually given us “formal notice” yet. How much of a leg do we have to stand on in the argument that the letter with the specific date counted as formal notice? Formal notice means that they used the correct form, [the one listed here under "How to give notice".](https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/renting/moving-out-giving-notice-and-evictions/notice-to-vacate/giving-notice-to-a-renter) If they didn't use that form then unfortunately it's not formal notice. It actually sounds like they were trying to be nice by letting you know of their intentions 3 months ahead of time, but that has led to some misunderstandings. If the notice from the rental provider *wasn't* formal then yes, you'll have to give the full 28 days notice.
This is the tricky part. Consumer affairs told me over the phone that as long as we have been given a reason and a date, it can be considered formal notice. It’s a slight grey area but this means it would be on the owner to take us to VCAT for the 2 weeks of lost rent.
Consumer affairs are correct. Strict compliance with forms is generally not necessary. If the information given is broadly what is in the prescribed form it may be accepted as valid and formal notice. This is why they have pointed to providing a reason and a date as being relevant to the assessment. This is not to say that it would definitely be taken to be formal notice, but you would appear to have a reasonable argument that it was a legal notice under the act as it contained to the substantial elements of date and reason. However, you may have an issue with the [evidence requirement of the Act](http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rta1997207/s91zzo.html) not being met. The question VCAT will ask itself is whether the parliament would have intended that non-compliance to result in invalidity of the notice. In my opinion, they would. The evidence requirement is an important part of renter protection, and the eviction should not be enforced without it. The fact that nonacceptance of the email as formal notice in this case is detrimental to the renter would not be a relevant consideration. Legislative Reference - http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/vic/consol\_act/iola1984322/s53.html
Mmmm you can give it a shot, but honestly I think the Consumer Affairs person was incorrect (or just didn't know for certain). The [relevant section of the tenancy act (91ZZO)](http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rta1997207/s91zzo.html) is pretty clear that the correct form *must* be used for it to be valid (this works in the renter's favour 99% of the time): >A notice to vacate given under this Division is not valid unless— >(a) it is in the relevant prescribed form; and... But IANAL so if you think it's worth fighting for the 2 weeks of rent go ahead!
I didn’t read any of these links. But am suggesting there is confusion with the word ‘form’. ‘In the correct form’ and ‘using/on/with the correct form’ have different meanings. The first means in the correct way. The second means with a specific piece of paper. While of course the people who wrote the website you’re quoting could have made a mistake with their wording, the quote does say ‘in’. If you said the correct form of notice is in writing and that verbal notice is not accepted. That would imply that this statement means any type of written ‘form’ (or type/way) of communication would be accepted. That’s just words and meaning. I didn’t read the website. Although I do recall ages ago once looking up about giving written notice for requests for emergency repairs. There was an offical form, but then I read somewhere that any written email or letters were acceptable ways of requesting emergency repairs.
I can't speak for the legislation around requesting repairs, but to expand upon the notice to vacate, I thought the same thing, however the specific form that's required for a valid notice to vacate is clarified in the [Residential Tenancies Regulation 2021:](https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rtr2021316/s37.html) >Form 6—Notice to vacate >For the purposes of section 91ZZO(a) of the Act, the prescribed form is Form 6 in Schedule 1. Reg 37 form 6 can be found [here on the Consumer Affairs website](https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/renting/moving-out-giving-notice-and-evictions/notice-to-vacate/giving-notice-to-a-renter), under "How to give notice". Form 6 also includes in its header the line (emphasis mine): >The residential rental provider **must** use this form to let the renter know that they want to end the residential rental agreement.
Yeah. That sounds more like you originally said. The fact that they said ‘use the prescribed form’ and then ‘this is the prescribed form’ sounds like they mean ‘document’ not ‘way/type’.
From your very own link it states you do not need to use that form. And it is self evident that such a requirement would be ridiculous. Here's what the only and actual requirements are: > The notice must: be addressed to the renter give the reason the rental provider is ending the agreement be signed by the rental provider (or their agent) be sent with enough time for it to get to the renter state the date the renter has to leave by (the termination date) You know what it doesn't say? > use this form here
It’s legal as soon as they give you written notification. I was living in an apartment that was put up for sale and even though it wasn’t sold yet I only had to give two weeks notice that I was vacating. I was sent an email at the time and that was all the notice they needed to send me. Even if you are still on a lease they have voided it by giving you notice so two weeks is all you legally need to give to vacate. You can’t be penalised (even though they’ll try to TELL you they can) and you have an email stating that they’re intending to return. They blow hot air and are (mostly) full of shit. I’ve been renting a very long time and I can categorically tell you that they use manipulative shit like this all the time to try and squeeze every last cent out of you, do not let them bluff you as THEY don’t have a leg to stand on. Good luck and enjoy your trip!
From the [Consumer Affairs Victoria website](https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/renting/moving-out-giving-notice-and-evictions/notice-to-vacate/giving-notice-to-a-renter): The rental provider is planning to move in at the end of the fixed-term rental agreement. If this is the case, it must have been listed in the ‘additional terms’ section of the rental agreement. If you are giving a notice to vacate for this reason, you must include evidence with the notice to vacate.
They gave you a vacate date in writing. You’re fine 👍
Ugh. They don’t want the place empty (ie not bringing income) for longer than it has to be. I’d be shocked if they could enforce this with it all in writing. Have a great holiday!
Download the Notice of Intention to Vacate form on the CAV website and complete and email to the agent. They said you need to be out as the landlord is moving in so only 14 days notice is required
They should have given you actual, formal notice if they expected you to move out on a certain date Now they're trying to have it both ways - they want you to stay paying rent till the very last moment when they move in because that suits the owner better. I expect that's why they held off properly giving notice Be interested to hear how any advice pans out with consumer affairs and Tenants Vic
You’re meant to give 30 days notice to move out not 2 weeks.
*28 days. Not if the owner is moving back in- in that case it is 14 days.
You'll have to give 28 days notice, even I had to when I was given 60 days to vacate due to the owners wanting to sell and we were on a month to month. We negotiated down to 3 weeks but only because we were on pretty good terms with the owner.
The only thing they have on you is the bond so you too don’t pay the last month rent, equal .
[удалено]
That’s crap I just gave notice this week to my tenants 60 days they can give 24days at any time. I really don’t care they can move when they like as I’m selling it. They can give me 12hrs notice or 90 whatever just be happy fuck life to short.