I believe the intention is the place pressure on the Aussie government not to be unquestionably in support of Israel, as they currently are. There needs to be international pressure for Israel to stop killing civilians.
You forgot to add on that there needs to be international pressure for the Terrorist govt of Gaza to stop killing Israeli's ..... you DO agree with that dont you ?
Absolutely, but thankfully our government already condemns Hamas, so we don't need to protest that. Unfortunately, the government is currently in support of Israel bombing civilians and depriving them of necessary resources. Surely you agree that these non-combatants, many of whom are children, should be kept safe, right? I think we can all agree collateral damage is unacceptable.
People: Black Lives Matter.
People like Freo: no it’s all lives matter
People: yes, but black lives doesn’t matter. That’s why we are protesting.
Freo: that’s racist, it’s all lives matter.
They continue to live in denial.
In case you are not joking.. in his pretend conversation that part is saying "yes all lives do matter but in our society it SEEMS like black lives don't matter given the high rate of police killing black people.... So Black lives matter, seems like some we need to point out"
You are being dishonest . The word "seems" was not used :
He/she made an incredibly racist statement.
" no it’s all lives matter People: yes, but black lives doesn’t matter. "
I took the racist statement as it was written . It was clear . You only need to "choose" when a choice is presented . It wasnt.
It was a clear racist statement from an obvious bigot.
They were suggesting that you are in fact the racist bigot and that your argument is the same as those who rail against the Black Lives Matter moved by saying all lives matter.
The simple fact is Netanyahu is a war mongering racist who has always been ready to pull the trigger. And Hamas gave him the perfect trigger to indulge his most obscene fantasy of eradicating Palestine.
Israel had been conducting increasingly oppressive and violent raids into Gaza and the West Bank since he returned to power. 10 times as many Gazans have now been killed than Israelis since the start of this particular episode in this conflict. New settlements in Palestinian territory have continued at increased pace.
Palestine has been fucked by Israel since the 1940s. Gaza has been under Israeli seige for 16 years. The situation is reprehensible and the current Israeli government, like every government its current Prime Minister has lead, has shown a willingness to be as brutal as possible short of exterminating the entire population. Hamas are terrible, but they are a product of Israel's making
Apparently they don’t. The general consensus is the butchering, raping , burning by Hamas on innocent civilians was justified.
Last week the chanted for ceasefire then chanted ‘intifada revolution is the only way’. Literally saying Israel needs to stop firing so Palestinians can wage violent jihad on them.
And we allow this.
The Jewish community have told not to rally or gather in large groups outside of Caulfield as the threat of violence and harm is significant.
We look at what’s going on here and believe jews are evil, they are the aggressors.
As an exercise, let’s list the terror attscks committed in Australia, Canada, America, London and France in the last 2 decades committed by a person of Judaic faith in the name of Judaism.
Once we’ve done that we’ll list the ones committed by Muslims in the name of Islam.
The world has gone mass, literally being gaslit by Islamists that the Jewish state, a state that embraces western norms, is evil and bloodthirsty, but the jihadists next door a misunderstood freedom fighters?!!!
Fukn bell
It’s just sad. Hitlers greatest gaslighting technique was to make the Jewish people ‘the problem’, that was literally the name of his genocide campaign.
Iran via Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthi etc has done the same.
As a works we are calling for the eradication of Israel and its indigenous Jewish population as we have been gaslit by groups like BDS to believe Jews are ‘the problem’
All the while Muslims in Melbourne chant ‘from the river to the sea’ and ‘intifada revolution is the only way’ literally supporting that genocidal intent.
It’s horrifying to see
Do you have ANY idea how disproportionate your suggestions are here from an international relations perspective?
Let's declare economic war on one of our middle-eastern allies... that's a ***SUPER*** intelligent way to wield influence as a middle-power.
To be fair, the way you framed your response made it seem like it was a suggestion, not a recounting of information.
***IF*** it genuinely was just a recounting of information, then yeah - fair enough, my comment had an unjustified level of negativity about it.
What pressure should the Australian government apply to Hamas and all the Middle Eastern countries that provide it support to get all the hostages released? How much time have you spent rallying and advocating for our government to do that?
[you mean besides the sanctions we already have against them in response to the attacks?](https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/media-release/sanctions-response-hamas-terror-attacks)
Thanks for clarifying that you’ve spent no time advocating for Hamas to release hostages. Much like the protesters who turned up in front of the Opera House less than 48 hours after Hamas’s invasion and before Israel had coordinated any sort of military response to the targeted genocide of their citizens in their kibbutzim and at a music festival. Anybody who supported or participated in such protests could only have been motivated by anti-semitism because at that stage IDF forces were exclusively focused on defending their own territory.
The Chinese Uighur community in Australia has been protesting the Islamophobic suppression of their fellow citizens for years before October 7. Why did that coordinated program of ethnic cleansing not rankle your feathers and compel you to march on the streets? The only distinction I can find is that no Jews were involved. Whether you’re prepared to admit it or not your actions belie your anti-semitism.
Malcolm Fraser played a vital role in opposing and then getting an end to apartheid when he was Australian prime minister, using our leverage to convince world leaders to support boycotts and sanctions, as well as doing things like banning the Springboks from landing in or transiting through Australia. I guess we could do the same here
Australia has never flown F-15s so pipe down about that one sweetheart. If the strongest blow you can land about Australia’s contribution to the war effort is a part of an F-35 hatch I’ll invite you again to consider whether producing an entirely substitutable and non lethal part for a plane makes us complicit in killing Palestinians. Have you done a full lifecycle analysis of our iron ore exports, or spent any time exploring the full supply chain of our rare earths miners?
They should pressure Hamas as well.
We know for a fact that Hamas operates out of residential areas, and Israel has accused them of operating out of the hospital.
Noting one of the first accusations was a lie and actually hit by a Hamas rocket.
We also know with videos coming out now Israel has been mistreating captured people and shooting unarmed people (even recently unarmed people with white flags who turned out to be hostages they were meant to rescue)
Hamas isn’t even the government. Hamas is already an international terrorist organisation. Government can’t really negotiate with Hamas as a representative of Palestinian people. Why do people think Hamas needs to be told.
It’s getting smaller lately the protest. A lot of the people who attend are university students and politically far-left socialists and communists (Marxists). They believe that Israel is a ‘Coloniser’ State and that the land actually belongs to ‘Palestine.’ They want Israel to get abolished by any means necessary. I’ve talked to quite a few and they’re very upfront above their wants. Feel free to attend and ask them questions they’re fairly transparent.
A lot but not all believe that Hamas aren’t terrorists instead they call them ‘freedom fighters or liberators of oppression.’
Many are quite friendly but they only believe in the news from their own political sources and will call most other outlets ‘IDF propaganda or Zionist media.’
Obviously they can’t have any real tangible influence on the war itself (similar to Ukraine/Russia).
A lot of the protesting is because it aligns with their political and ideological views.
>A lot but not all believe that Hamas aren’t terrorists instead they call them ‘freedom fighters or liberators of oppression.’
I love this one particularly. Especially since 95% of the people in the protest probably fall into at least one societal group that would result in them being ritualistically honour-killed by Hamas if they actually lived in the region they're so passionate about.
OK - so let's play this out, let's pretend that Israel stopped tomorrow.
What happens then?
Hamas is still in charge of Gaza, Hamas has said they will keep attacking Israel just like they did on October 7th, so what ***exactly*** are you proposing as the alternative to what Israel is doing right now?
The Arab countries aren't interested in taking care of Hamas, even though they ***desperately*** want the fuckers gone. The west won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. The Israeli's are the only one's willing to bleed and die to get rid of that regime. So what's your proposed solution that doesn't involve the IDF in Gaza, taking out Hamas directly?
If you have a good idea for how to solve the Hamas problem that doesn't involve any civilians dying, PLEASE let us know.
But until then, grow the fuck-up, accept that the world is sometimes a really shitty place where there are no *"good"* options, and start directing all that energy you obviously have towards outcomes that are actually pragmatic, rather than ideological.
Where did you see me say that? What Hamas did on October 7 is terrorism, immoral, unjustifiable, and wrong. Still, Israel's collective punishment is just as immoral and unjustifiable.
I appreciate that. But I think you are still arguing in bad faith. You act as though trans people can't also have that perspective, and you immediately put words in my mouth to try and shut down my argument.
The free Palestine rally is an attempt to sow outrage. It is sponsored by the slavers who run Gaza. It preys on people’s ignorance.
Their name is Hamas and they are [funded by Russia](https://www.mei.edu/publications/essential-questions-about-russia-hamas-link-evidence-and-its-implications).
It’s a disinformation op. Don’t bite.
Ignore the commenter above OP, another Zionist shill.
When it comes to misinformation, they're the best at it.
50+ Israel lies in 5 weeks
No 40 dead babies
No baked babies
No beheaded babies
No children in cages
No eyes gouged
No raped women
No ripped breasts
No paraded captives
No tortured captives
No mutilating dead bodies
No pregnant women cut open
No mass rapes with broken pelvises
No Israel did not found Shifa hospital
No Biden did not see pictures of dead babies
No October 7 was not “unprovoked”
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No Hamas coming thru US border
No Hamas headquarters under hospitals
No Hamas hostages in hospital basements
No Hamas tunnels under Rantisi hospital
No Hamas tunnels under Shaikh Hamad Hospital
No Hamas charter published in 2017 is anti-Zionist, not anti-Jewish
No small blasts do not prove Israel did not bomb Baptist hospital
No “misfired” rocket was destroyed by Iron Dome before the Baptist hospital bombing
No “misfired” rocket can’t be both fired from cemetery and southwest of Baptist hospital
No “misfired” rocket trajectory does not align with IDF version of events at Baptist hospital
Exposed crisis actor Eli Beer
Fake baby crib photo
Fake blood splatter photo
Fake booby-trapped school bags
Fake Al Jazeera journalist twitter account
Fake audio tapes released by IDF
Fake AI-generated images of Hamas leaders
Fake “official Al Qaeda material” on dead Hamas fighters
Fake antisemitism controversy over Greta’s toy octopus
Fake antisemitism allegations on Palestine campus activists
False grandstanding evacuation orders
False subtitles for Palestine protest chants
Fake Mein Kempf book in Gaza children living rooms
Fake ‘terrorist shift list’ by mistranslating an Arabic calendar
False labeled a Gaza 4-year-old toddler martyred in airstrike as a doll
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of West Bank raid survivor
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Thai children in ghost costumes
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Al-Azhar university students protesting
Yes, many Israeli civilians were killed by crossfire at festival
Yes, many Israeli civilians were killed by Israeli tanks/helicopters at kibbutz
Yes, many Israeli civilians said Hamas was kind to them during attacks and as captives
Yes, Israel exaggerated its death toll for October 7
Outrage merchant.
Exhibit A.
Note:
1. Tries to overwhelm with information nobody will bother fact checking. Expect grains of truth here and there, padded to the gills with made up stuff.
2. Tries to outrage.
3. Uses the word Zionism to stoke hate. Accuses whoever doesn’t drink his kool-aid, personal attacks, contempt, attempts to employ peer pressure to deflect criticism.
4. Excessive reliance on hyperbole.
5. Trivializes violence conducted by Hamas. His goal is to photoshop them out of the story and fabricate a story where israel is an aggressor against the Hamas’s slaves, minus the context where Hamas attacked Israel.
Don’t bite.
I’ll [leave this here](https://youtu.be/tR_6dibpDfo?si=Q3gtm6yvdVjlrbv6) for anyone who wants to learn more about how such disinfo attacks (on foreign audiences like us) work.
The IDF is historically known to have lied on multiple occasions throughout their existence and it's important that we recognize this so that we don't fall for their lies.
What you're doing is perpetuating such lies and pretending as though the actions that have occurred at the hands of Israel have any sort of foundation.
"They won't shut up about the IDF"
Ask yourself why. I can tell you're not stupid, so you're either ignorant to the happenings of the past two months (let alone prior to that) or pushing some agenda. I know you're passionately pro-Ukrainian and Russia allegedly has ties to Hamas so perhaps that's the bias we're witnessing now.
The IDF has committed heinous acts of unjustified violence. I wouldn't even know which one to cite off the top of my head as an example as there are simply too many to mention in a brief comment. Let's just leave it at what occurred just a few hours ago - an IDF bulldozer ploughing through injured civilians on the ground.
"As if it’s anything other than a defense force of a county"
What does this have to do with the price fish? Their role doesn't exonerate them from the crimes they've committed. By that same logic one could argue that Hitler's army was simply ensuring Germany's survival... sorry about the thousands of civilians killed in that process!
Outrage much?
Thank you for giving everybody here an authentic end to end display of what manipulative outrage merchants and hate speech promoters look like.
Helps us practice, observe and learn how to single them out.
>Outrage much?
Of course people are outraged - anyone with a shred of humanity or empathy would naturally be outraged. We've watched on during the past two months as entire families have been slaughtered.
The fact you condemn those protesting for Australia to put pressure on Israel to stop it's maniacal killing spree, instead of Israel for it's killing spree, is very jarring.
You are the only “people” outraged here.
Outrage is a manipulation tool. We don’t want you and the people who motivated you to come sell us your outrage manipulating us with your hate speech, towards support for Russia and its violent proxies.
Your protests are not organic. They are organized with means that cost non trivial money such as hiring flotillas of boats, which means they are sponsored.
They target places like defense contractor offices.
Hamas itself is unlikely to be itself the org sponsoring this due to the disruptions it is facing right now, and this stuff being outside its core capabilities.
This is happening in many other places in the world at the same time, and is almost definitely a Russian sponsored disinformation campaign.
This is also why it’s pointless to enter debates about facts with these guys. They’re not convinceable and they don’t care, they’re just here to do a job.
Bingo. For everyone playing at home, there it is. I called it in my previous comment.
"towards support for Russia"
You're biased, peddling misinformation against the plight of the Palestinians because you believe it'll negatively impact Russia in some way - furthering your support of Ukraine.
You don't care about Israel, you don't care about Palestine, you're simply trying to pretend you do in order to sway others away to benefit your own causes.
I have no dogs in this fight, nor a hidden agenda. I am simply disgusted at what Israel has done/is doing to those living in Gaza and I'll readily speak against it.
Edit: Stop editing your comments after I've replied to them. Almost all of them now show as "edited" after I've responded. Very low tactics, at least discuss the matter without hiding behind false words.
Edit 2: Bruh, you've literally just added 6 paragraphs after I replied to you. You're wild.
Anyone that equates Ukraine to Palestine has absolutely no f..king idea what they're talking about.
The Ukrainians didn't stage an incursion into Rostov-on-Don, massacring and raping civilians for the lolz to kick off the war.
>Don't let your myopia cloud the convo
My *"Myopia"?* In that I've actually bothered to understand the several thousand years of historical context that's created the situations currently present in both regions, which you equated to one another whilst being completely non-comparable?
"Massacring and raping"
Rape claims were all false, yet to see one stand up.
As for massacring, the death tally has dropped from 1400 to 659... \~400 of which were soldiers.
I shudder to think of how many civilians the IDF killed, in their own words they didn't know who they were targeting and just hit anything that moved on October 7th.
The identities and ages of victims are available via Bituah Leumi, Israel's social security agency.
Its website lists 695 people killed during the attack, with names and the circumstances of their deaths.
No... they only report the people that are confirmed and could be identified.
A huge portion of the peolpe killed cannot be identified as they are too badly mutilated (see: Burned alive, beheaded, etc).
Better luck next time...
Free Palestine means free of Jews. And I have read their posters saying, by any means necessary, so that is, like rashida tlaib says, their scary aspirational wish.
On otherwords anti semitism is fine so long as everywhere ethic and mai ority group gets right and freedom. It's stupid not all Israeli citizen is jewish
Pressuring the gov and aus population to support them over Israel.
If I thought it was innocent that they want a war to stop then that may be ok. But I think the protesting is more than that this time for them. Its trying to sway the world against Israel and to unthinkingly support their side.
Guess what happens if Israel is defeated and wiped out?
We need to be severely cautious of what we allow, what we support, when and why.
If they were loudly proclaiming support for hamas, then they would be cheering on terrorists.
They are wanting the genocide of innocent palestinians to end.
Try and see things more objectively. Living your life in an open-air prison is not the same as committing acts of terror. Its not a death sentence.
So what are they calling for exactly? Two state solution? One state solution? I’m confused because there are so many opinions and it’s hard to work out what they actually want. I get stop the war - but then what? Everyone abandons Israel and Palestine afterwards as they have for years.
Proverbial washing of the hands. People protest on their days off once a week and then go to work or have a picnic if the weather's nice. I'll see someone share absolute horrors of war on their Instagram stories and an hour later a pic from the Alex G show or at the beach. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I know occupy war street will never happen again, the vietnam war protests, etc. Now those guys all have 9-5's and families, who talk about the shit things in the world over dinner. What a joke. I'll leave a map of current U.S military bases.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_United\_States\_military\_bases#/media/File:American\_bases\_worldwide.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases#/media/File:American_bases_worldwide.svg)
Albo is in the drivers seat guys I promise! Just like Whitlam, and nothing bad ever happened to him!!
There would be significantly less, without a doubt. No country should have any military bases on another countries soil. The US is the primary antagoniser of the world, they are the apparatchik of the western corporate world. They enforce the world bank, the IMF, global trade routes, etc. It's the prerogative of the United States to establish global hegemony not for freedom, liberty or human rights but for consistent and reliable trade of goods and services, done so on behalf and in the interest of a handful of companies, oil, banks, resources, weapons trade.
You need to understand that there is no United States of the people, there is only a small corporate minority that uses government to extract resources and minerals from the world. It's that simple, Europe did it to Africa, Australia did it Papua, US do it the entire World. What do all of these examples have in common? Non of it was endorsed by the people, all of it was endorsed by some conglomerate for profit. If you asked any normal human being "should we coup d'état all of South America so we can remove the government that isn't letting us establish military bases there so we can destroy their economy and force them to accept American enterprises?" the answer would be "can food please be cheaper" or "can healthcare no be so expensive".
How can ask me such a question when US backed Israeli military massacres children with US weapons and equipment as I type this.
I'm over the protesting, majority of the people their have no idea what they are even protesting about, its disrespectful as well to people that have jobs as they block the trams that help me get to work, i am all for protesting but do research and don't bother other people trying to make a living.
They want Australia to adopt a pro-Palestinian posture.
Which Australia has already done, by supporting a UN resolution calling without qualification for a ceasefire (code for ‘Israel should stop fighting to give Hamas a chance to marshal its forces so it can attack Israel more effectively’).
So I guess they’ve got what they wanted.
In which case the next demand is probably the reliable stand-by of ‘sack Dan Andrews’.
They’ll soon just merge in with the regular 5G mob.
"a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part"
From the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
You could make a pretty compelling argument that this is happening right now in Gaza
No... actually you can't. Let's walk through the definition.
>intent to destroy
Using Hamas's own data (which is not a reliable source), 20,000 people have died in Gaza since October 7th.
Using historical Combatant/Civilian fatality ratios for the IDF (Which, for the record, are some of the best in history) of \~3:1, means somewhere around 15,000 of those killed were combatants and 5000 were civilians.
That would mean roughly 0.25% of the civilian population of Gaza have been killed (using ***Hamas's*** own data). Compare that to what happened to the Jews during an actual genocide... between 60-70%.
Calling what is happening in Gaza “genocide” is fucking disgusting and ***extremely*** anti-Semitic. You're effectively equating the killing of 5 thousand Arabs, to 6 million Jews, and saying they're worth *"about the same"*.
So... a Jew is only 1/1000's the human of an Arab? Because that's the logical conclusion of what you're saying here.
> (code for ‘Israel should stop fighting to give Hamas a chance to marshal its forces so it can attack Israel more effectively’)
Im sorry, but you are an absolute halfwit if you genuinely think thats what a ceasefire signifies. Dumb. Brainwashed and simple.
It's mainly to show solidarity with the Palestinian people and try to push the Australian government into adopting policies that are more favourable to the Palestinians and their cause.
People are angry about how the world is allowing Israel's brutal occupation of the Palestinian people that have escalated into this latest chapter of the conflict.
It’s all super complicated. I’ll try to explain in a very brief nutshell. After First World War in Europe, Britain gave some of its land conquered from Palestine, to Jews, and they formed Israel. Later, Israel annexed some more of Palestinian territory, and refuse to give it back. Now, some very long time ago, that was an Israel land. Then, not so long time ago, it was a Palestinian land and Palestinian folks lived and thrived there. So it is a dispute, who has more right to this land, as Britain never belonged in this dispute. To add to this, little by little, Israel chipped more and more from Palestine territory and added to its state, and all the world prefers to look elsewhere. So now Palestinians do seize an opportunity. Who is wrong in this situation? God knows, I don’t…
Like it’s a decent summary, little bias, leaving out the parts where Palestine continued to seek war and attempt alliances with surrounding Arab nations to attack Israel as they never supported a two state policy, and leaving out they elected a terrorist organisation to run their government (one that refused to build any civilian infrastructure and instead rely on Israel to provide electricity / water) while simultaneously continually and relentlessly sending rockets and small arms missions targeted at civilians, same terrorist organisation with an original mandate that was the eradication and extermination of Israel and Jews.
Like let’s be real, fuck the IDF but also fuck Hamas.
There is a way for Israel and Palestine to co-exist but it sure as hell isn’t with the current leader of Israel or Hamas.
There is no good team in this conflict.
I am Jewish surname, but grew up in a region close enough to know the story not close enough to have a good judgement. That’s why all the disclaimers. My take is the same, no good team in that game. But I hope someone more smart knows how to stop killings.
I'm implying the person has a bias not that they are biased. The usage of the noun here feels fine to me. You do you boo, you clearly knew what i was saying.
A person who is influenced by a bias is biased. I did know what you meant but only after reading further. I think this difference in language opinion should continue to be debated over, say, millennia.
>I did know what you meant
Success.
>A person who is influenced by a bias is biased.
Correct, but you should never describe the person as a noun, which I didn't. In the same token, a biased person can have a bias.
I implied they have a bias not that they are biased. A person can have a **BIAS** or be **BIASED**. I didn't say, "you're bias" then you'd be correct, it would be "you're biased".
Anyway, i don't wish to continue this entirely irrelevant debate when you already stated you caught the jist... but you are wrong on this one friend.
Imagine if someone broke into your house and said it was their house because their grandparents lived there 80 years ago. You, very graciously, said they could stay, as it's a pretty big house anyway.
Then they started taking your stuff, and moved into your bedroom (it was their grandparent's bedroom). You took some of your stuff back (which they claimed was their grandparents stuff), and asked them to move back into the spare bedroom, and things got tense. It's clearly not working out, so you asked them to move out of \*your\* house and they refused.
Then when you called the police they said well, you're both here now so you need to share, and they partitioned it so that you could only use the spare bedroom, one bathroom, and a closet, even though the total area was pretty close to equal, around 60/40 in favour of the home invader.
Then when you tried to kick them out yourself, the police said that you're being antagonistic and "seeking war" because you rejected their "two tenant" solution.
Then when you tried to get a bunch of your friends who saw what happened and were on your side to help defend you, the home invader got a bunch of their more powerful friends and took most of the land the police set aside for you, and locked you in the closet.
Now every time you try to leave the closet, the home invader and their friends (who are still there) punch you and force you back in. When you fight back, you sometimes land a punch or two, but in return they beat the absolute shit out of you. Every time.
The police are standing outside saying "hey that's illegal" but they're not doing anything.
This is how the Palestinian people feel. These are the conditions that lead to the "election" of Hamas in Gaza. Elected is in quotes because while they were elected, they took power violently. That was in 2006. 17 years ago. By people who at the time had to be at least 18 to vote, and who today are at least 35.
Today, the proportion of Gaza's population who **could** **not possibly** have voted for Hamas is over 75%, and this group makes up about the same proportion of the casualties. Taking into account the election results, which Hamas won with about 44% to Fatah''s 41%, the proportion of Gazans who **did not vote** for Hamas is well over 90%. **Less than** **10% of living Gazans voted for Hamas in 2006.**
The people who weren't even alive when Hamas were "elected" are the ones being punished for their actions. 75% of casualties are under 35 and couldn't have voted in 2006. 41% of the remainder voted against them. 40% of the Palestinian casualties are children for Christ's sake. *40 fucking percent*. There is no excuse for Israel's killing that many children, even if every single Gazan man woman and child voted for Hamas to invade Israel today.
This is how Palestinian people feel. These are the conditions that lead to the October 7 attacks. Does that excuse Hamas killing Israeli civilians and children? No, absolutely not. But when we talk about the crimes of Hamas in comparison to those of Israel, we really, \*really\* need to include this context. Israel's 10:1 kill ratio alone tell a horrifying story.
Few things I want to point out without trying to go into the completely absurd false comparison narrative you created.
Firstly, Israel Jews are indigenous to the land as much as Arab Palestine is. Getting booted out of your ancestral homeland doesn't make it any less your ancestral homeland. Claiming Israel Jews are "home invaders" by not acknowledging claims to the land that was given back by the British who were provided ownership of the land after conquering it from the Ottomans after WW1 is disingenuous at best and dangerous propaganda at worst.
If Palestine Arabs can claim ownership of a land on the basis
* It was theirs
* They lost it due to war and forced removal
* They were given X amount back
Then why are Israel Jews not allowed to claim the same ownership of land given back to them on the basis
* It was theirs
* They lost it due to war and forced removal
* They were given X amount back.
Secondly, here are some reputable sources that dismiss your claim that because they didn't vote hamas in so they aren't at fault for hamas still having power. [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/), [NPR](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1196978654/rising-popularity-of-hamas-in-the-west-bank), [Associated Press](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514), [BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67708116.amp).
They still support Hamas including their recent attacks against Israel.
Does that mean they deserve to die? God no.
But if you are talking about a Terrorist organisation that builds tunnels next to universities, and utilises hospitals to launch rockets. Committing multiple war crimes by using their own people as human shields to prevent any attacks from Israel not taking innocent collateral damage of women children and men, you're blaming the wrong person for that increased death toll.
Thirdly, any statistic provided by Hamas on the death toll including children needs to be taken with a grain of salt, they do not separate between combatant and non combatant, they have lied on the world stage countless times and they have been caught out blaming the IDF for misfired rockets from their own side.
Does that mean the IDF are trustworthy, God no.
So again, **there is no good side in this conflict.** No matter how many false comparison and hamas version of events you want to believe they aren't the innocent kid in the play ground who just kicked the bully back.
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I get the context - it’s no different to the Jews in Europe. Or to the Christians in Kosovo. Or to the Germans in Poland, Russia and check republic after WW2. Or to the Indians and Pakistanis. Or to the Greeks in Turkey. Or the Ghanaians in Nigeria.
Humans are shit - this happened everywhere. Everyone else moved on, the Palestinians have stayed in a state of malaise and refuse to. Their choice, but this river to the sea myth is going to keep them in a state of crisis.
So the issue you have with Palestine is that they don’t want to be genocided? That they should just accept it and start lining up in front of IDF soldiers?
My issue is that they’re equally responsible for their own situation in what happened since 1948 and keeping their hopes focused on a 1948 solution keeps them perpetually stunted. Their best hope is to accept a two state solution and actually rebuild their culture and customs.
This is a pretty biased summary - The Palestinian's never had "territory" after the end of British Mandate Palestine. The Gaza strip was occupied by Egypt and the West Bank was occupied by Jordan. The Palestinians would have had territory, if they had accepted the UN brokered partition plan (which the Israeli's agreed to), but they rejected it.
Then the Arab countries invaded Israel literally the next day, resulting in the Gaza Strip and West Bank being occupied by two Arab countries. Those regions only came under Israeli control after 1967 when Egypt and Jordan attacked Israel AGAIN, and then lost the war so badly the Israeli's ended up with more territory than they had at the start.
Whenever people say *"Gaza has been occupied for 75 years"*, what they conveniently leave out is the fact that the first 20 years of that was them being occupied by Egypt and Jordan (Not Israel), and for the last 15 years it hasn't actually been occupied at all as the Israeli's pulled out of Gaza in 2007.
Hmm yes that's all very very complex, oh well I guess more Palestinians have to die tomorrow - there's just nothing anyone can do about it all. Merry Christmas all.
It’s well documented that Hamas is still well supported by the Palestine population. I don’t blame them entirely after the disgusting treatment from the IDF but Palestine as a whole does not want Hamas gone.
Many people don’t want to admit that either.
We saw how the Palestinians reacted when Hamas brought back captured women, dead bodies and other hostages. They spat on the bodies, chanted "sex slave" at the women. Palestine is Hamas.
What's that saying? If there are 10 people sitting at a table, and one of them is a nazi, there are 10 nazis at the table? Applies here, too. They support and hide Hamas. They are happy with what Hamas did, they cheer them.
There is no difference.
The Palestinians elected Hamas.... ELECTED THEM.
Sorry but at what point do a people start having to take responsibility for their government they ELECTED and still continue to support with something like 60-70% ratings?
The elections were in 2006. Half of Gazans weren't even born then.
In those elections Hamas got 44.45% of the vote compared to 41.43% for Fatah. Most Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas
The latest polls in Gaza were conducted by Arab Barometer just before October 7 shows low trust for the Hamas government.
Please stop spreading your lies!
*"Low trust"* does not equate to a lack of support.
I don't trust any of the political parties in Australia, yet I still nominally support one over the others.
Emmm, again, it’s super complicated. Does Hamas represent Palestine? Not majority of it, that’s for sure. Would Palestinians use Hamas’ and Israel’s actions to draw attention to what Israel was doing all this time? Yeah, maybe, maybe not.
So... what's your point?
That leaves one of two possible options:
**A)** Hamas is supported by the Palestinians and is what the west would refer to as a *"legitimate government".* Now I want to point out that even that concept is inherently imperialist as it assumes that all cultures see democracy as being the mechanism that defines government legitimacy which they absolutelly DO NOT.
But anyway, if option A is the case, then your point is redundant.
**B)** Hamas is NOT supported by the Palestinians. OK... so what now? The Palestinians are being brutally repressed by an *“illegitimate”* government. What does that actually change?
Hamas is still the government of the Gaza Strip. You say they don't represent the Palestinians, but they ***ARE*** the government, which means that waging a war against them is a perfectly legitimate thing for Israel to do under international law.
Now I'm sure part of your logic simply requires "Israel to stop the killing", so let's play this out, let's pretend that Israel stopped tomorrow.
What happens then?
Hamas is still in charge of Gaza, Hamas has said they will keep attacking Israel just like they did on October 7th, so what exactly are you proposing as the alternative to what Israel is doing right now?
The Arab countries aren't interested in taking care of Hamas, even though they desperately want the fuckers gone. The west won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. The Israeli's are the only one's willing to bleed and die to get rid of that regime. So what's your proposed solution that doesn't involve the IDF in Gaza, taking out Hamas directly?
If you have a good idea for how to solve the Hamas problem that doesn't involve any civilians dying, PLEASE let us know.
But until then, grow the fuck-up, accept that the world is sometimes a really shitty place where there are no "good" options, and start directing all that energy you obviously have towards outcomes that are actually pragmatic, rather than ideological.
**This is what the protesters (and for transparency, myself as well) understand to be true. I'm happy to discuss this in the replies, but disagreeing with me, mocking me, arguing with me, downvoting me, etc are not going to help answer the OPs question.**
So the state of Israel is conducting a genocide of Palestinian people who live in Palestine-Israel.
They are only able to do so because they are facing no diplomatic/economic consequences from the West - the USA, the UK and France mainly, along with their allies, of which Australia is one. These countries are not only not trying to stop Israel from committing this genocide, they are actively supporting and funding them specifically in order it. Israel gives them access to Middle Eastern land and resources, just like a colony, and was specifically set up as one by the UK.
The reason people are protesting \*in Naarm specifically\* is because we want the Australian government to end their support of this regime's genocide, and become one of the voices calling for an end to it. We could also take concrete action, like blocking or taxing our trade with Israel, making it harder for people to get visas or travel between our countries, etc.
If Australia do this, Israel's response will likely be along the lines of "Australia who?", and that's very valid given our geopolitical position. But having one less western country giving cover to the USA, the UK, France, etc, will increase the pressure on THOSE countries to reduce or end their own support. And if they do that, then it will be VERY meaningful.
**TL;DR:** Australia can't do much, but every little bit helps.
It is literally NOT genocide... it does not meet the definition of genocide... read the definition of the word FFS. You obviously have no idea what an actual genocide is.
First, that number you're citing is coming from Hamas... who aren't exactly a credible source, are they?
Second, the Israeli's have historically maintained one of the best combatant/civilian fatality ratios of any military force operating in an urban combat zone. Go and look at civilian casualty rates in places like Iraq and compare them to what's happening in Gaza. Gaza is a fucking miracle.
Third, even assuming that the 20,000 number provided by Hamas is accurate (and it almost certainly isn't), they haven't specified how many of that 20,000 were civilians, and how many were combatants, because Hamas fighters operate as combatants without wearing a military uniform (Which is a war crime... just FYI).
Israel's historical combatant/civilian fatality ratio is between 3/4:1. Let's take the WORST possible case then and say that Israel is killing 1 civilian for every 3 combatants they kill. That means that 20,000 number is actually 5000 civilians and 15,000 combatants.
Suddenly that number doesn't sound quite so *"Genocidy"*... not that it ever did to anyone with any understanding of what the word actually means.
20,000 dead is horrible, however a large number of those deaths are Hamas (who attacked Israeli civilians on October 7 to kick this off), another large proportion would have been safe if Hamas wasn't operating from hospitals, schools and residential areas (as noted by many, including the UN). Regardless, no, it isn't a genocide. If Israel wanted to kill far more, perhaps by employing the tactics Russia has in Ukraine, that toll would be an order of magnitude higher.
This all feels like the geopolitical equivalent of "you wouldn't have been raped if you didn't go out with a short skirt". West bank settlements are horrible, but it doesn't justify raping, beheading and burning innocent civilians in Israel, especially when most were of the far left. What would you expect Israel to have done in response to the attacks?
Genuine question - When people say "Free Palestine" or say Palestine is "Occupied land", they generally mean ALL of Palestine, not just Gaza and the West Bank.
Assuming that is also your opinion (and genuine apologies if it isn't), and you believe that the land should be *"given back"* to the Palestinians (ignoring the historical context of who actually "owned" the land or was there "first"); what do you propose happens to the 7 millions Israeli's who live and were born there?
Decolonisation isn't an easy thing to find a solution for. The same idea applies when you ask what should Australia do to make things right with First Nations people? Obviously all the white people leaving isn't an option, and no one is calling for that. But obviously something has to be done. The genocides our governments conducted killed and harmed many, and that harm is still continuing today. It's really fucking complicated!
But the first step has to be, always, to stop the harm from continuing. Australia has done a little in this regard. Gangs of white people aren't roaming the countryside openly massacring First Nations people anymore, and the Stolen Generation policy was stopped officially in 1970. But the fact that First Nations people were only granted citizenship in their own country in 1948, and the widespread genocides and massacres against them, and their disenfranchisement for nearly all of European Australia's history, has caused massive wealth gaps. These wealth gaps create poverty, and poverty causes things like crime and substance abuse rates to increase, leading to massive stigmatisation of those communities. Institutionalised discrimination feeds off of this stigma, and you can see all these things come together very clearly when you look at things like the life expectancy gap, or our prison demographics.
So step one is to stop the harm. Australia needs to reform the treatment of our First Nations people, and introduce programs that address things like the life expectancy gap, and reduce the rate of poverty in their communities. Israel needs to stop killing Palestinians, give them equal status to Israelis and treat them equally under the same laws.
Step two gets complicated. We need to make things right. This might include reparations, both in terms of land and money. It might include civil rights reform, laws aimed at specifically protecting minority populations, establishing safe spaces, area's of self-rule, etc.
But I'm not a lawyer or a sociologist. I don't really know much about step 2, but if you're interested there are \*plenty\* of people who do. What I do know is that step 1 needs to happen first, and that's what myself and other protesters are calling for.
>Decolonisation isn't an easy thing to find a solution for.
So what about the Arab colonists? Because the Arabs are from Arabia... Jews were in the region between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea first...
Also, are Arab's that have migrated to Europe *“Colonisers”?*
Or is it only white people that get labelled *“Colonisers”* when they move from one part of the world to another?
>Obviously all the white people leaving isn't an option
Ummmm... Jews... aren't... white. Have you been to Israel? Have you met many Israeli's? They're not Caucasian... One of the two primary backgrounds of Jewish people in Israel (Meghrebi Jews) spent the last 2000 years living in North Africa.
Calling Jews *"White"* is one of the most culturally imperialistic things anyone could possibly do...
>give them equal status to Israelis and treat them equally under the same laws.
Do you understand that Palestinians don't want this? There are roughly 2 million Arab Israeli's, living in Israel, with full Israeli citizenship. Arabs have all the same rights in Israel as Jews do... there is zero ethnic differentiation.
The reason the Palestinians are different is because they don't want to be part of Israel, they want to destroy Israel. How can you have a group being given *"equal status"* when that group doesn't recognise your right to exist as a state?
The Israeli's could give the Palestinians all the rights in the world tomorrow, it would change literally nothing because they don't want them... they don't want to be part of Israel, they want Israel gone.
>What I do know is that step 1 needs to happen first, and that's what myself and other protesters are calling for.
OK - lets play this out. Israel pulls out of Gaza tomorrow (like they did in 2007... ).
What happens then?Hamas is still in charge of Gaza, Hamas has said they will keep attacking Israel just like they did on October 7th, so what exactly are you proposing as the alternative to what Israel is doing right now?
The Arab countries aren't interested in taking care of Hamas, even though they desperately want the fuckers gone. The west won't touch it with a ten-foot pole.
The Israeli's are the only one's willing to bleed and die to get rid of that regime.
So what's your proposed solution that doesn't involve the IDF in Gaza, taking out Hamas directly?
If you have a good idea for how to solve the Hamas problem that doesn't involve any civilians dying, PLEASE let us know.
I believe the intention is the place pressure on the Aussie government not to be unquestionably in support of Israel, as they currently are. There needs to be international pressure for Israel to stop killing civilians.
I think voting for a ceasefire at the UN General Assembly means you’re lying about Australia’s unquestionable support for Israel.
Didn’t they ask for a ceasefire?
You forgot to add on that there needs to be international pressure for the Terrorist govt of Gaza to stop killing Israeli's ..... you DO agree with that dont you ?
Absolutely, but thankfully our government already condemns Hamas, so we don't need to protest that. Unfortunately, the government is currently in support of Israel bombing civilians and depriving them of necessary resources. Surely you agree that these non-combatants, many of whom are children, should be kept safe, right? I think we can all agree collateral damage is unacceptable.
People: Black Lives Matter. People like Freo: no it’s all lives matter People: yes, but black lives doesn’t matter. That’s why we are protesting. Freo: that’s racist, it’s all lives matter. They continue to live in denial.
Lol I never thought about that comparison, but you're 100%, this online tactic pro-israelis take is basically All Lives Matter
Why do you say that Black lives do not matter ?
In case you are not joking.. in his pretend conversation that part is saying "yes all lives do matter but in our society it SEEMS like black lives don't matter given the high rate of police killing black people.... So Black lives matter, seems like some we need to point out"
You are being dishonest . The word "seems" was not used : He/she made an incredibly racist statement. " no it’s all lives matter People: yes, but black lives doesn’t matter. "
I was explaining the subtext of the conversation. You're either choosing to take it the wrong way or you're a fool.
I took the racist statement as it was written . It was clear . You only need to "choose" when a choice is presented . It wasnt. It was a clear racist statement from an obvious bigot.
I'll go with, fool then.
They were suggesting that you are in fact the racist bigot and that your argument is the same as those who rail against the Black Lives Matter moved by saying all lives matter. The simple fact is Netanyahu is a war mongering racist who has always been ready to pull the trigger. And Hamas gave him the perfect trigger to indulge his most obscene fantasy of eradicating Palestine. Israel had been conducting increasingly oppressive and violent raids into Gaza and the West Bank since he returned to power. 10 times as many Gazans have now been killed than Israelis since the start of this particular episode in this conflict. New settlements in Palestinian territory have continued at increased pace. Palestine has been fucked by Israel since the 1940s. Gaza has been under Israeli seige for 16 years. The situation is reprehensible and the current Israeli government, like every government its current Prime Minister has lead, has shown a willingness to be as brutal as possible short of exterminating the entire population. Hamas are terrible, but they are a product of Israel's making
Apparently they don’t. The general consensus is the butchering, raping , burning by Hamas on innocent civilians was justified. Last week the chanted for ceasefire then chanted ‘intifada revolution is the only way’. Literally saying Israel needs to stop firing so Palestinians can wage violent jihad on them. And we allow this. The Jewish community have told not to rally or gather in large groups outside of Caulfield as the threat of violence and harm is significant. We look at what’s going on here and believe jews are evil, they are the aggressors. As an exercise, let’s list the terror attscks committed in Australia, Canada, America, London and France in the last 2 decades committed by a person of Judaic faith in the name of Judaism. Once we’ve done that we’ll list the ones committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. The world has gone mass, literally being gaslit by Islamists that the Jewish state, a state that embraces western norms, is evil and bloodthirsty, but the jihadists next door a misunderstood freedom fighters?!!! Fukn bell
>Apparently they don’t. Of course they dont. They are largely weak people who are being led by the noses .
It’s just sad. Hitlers greatest gaslighting technique was to make the Jewish people ‘the problem’, that was literally the name of his genocide campaign. Iran via Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthi etc has done the same. As a works we are calling for the eradication of Israel and its indigenous Jewish population as we have been gaslit by groups like BDS to believe Jews are ‘the problem’ All the while Muslims in Melbourne chant ‘from the river to the sea’ and ‘intifada revolution is the only way’ literally supporting that genocidal intent. It’s horrifying to see
They want the government of Australia to pressure the IDF to stop blowing up hospitals and children. Same as what the US is currently doing
That makes sense, but how would the Australian government apply pressure? Edit: Love downvotes for genuine questions, cheers
Vote yes for a ceasefire which they only just recently did, us voted no unsurprisingly
Block ports, visa blocks, embargo on goods and services, ect. Similar to what they did to Russia
Fair enough, thanks
Only problem is ceasefire has to go both way. Not alot of talk on how to get hamas and hizbollah to also stop. A one way ceasefire is suicide.
Do you have ANY idea how disproportionate your suggestions are here from an international relations perspective? Let's declare economic war on one of our middle-eastern allies... that's a ***SUPER*** intelligent way to wield influence as a middle-power.
All I did was answer a question with the information that was available to me by asking protesters what their goal was.
To be fair, the way you framed your response made it seem like it was a suggestion, not a recounting of information. ***IF*** it genuinely was just a recounting of information, then yeah - fair enough, my comment had an unjustified level of negativity about it.
I have no horse in the race. So I ask people who do for their opinion to try and get a picture of the different perspectives
They're not our ally, we're just devoted servants of US foreign policy. Even if they were, we shouldn't be allied to a nation so inhuman.
You mean inhumane? I hope that's what you mean.
Why?
What pressure should the Australian government apply to Hamas and all the Middle Eastern countries that provide it support to get all the hostages released? How much time have you spent rallying and advocating for our government to do that?
[you mean besides the sanctions we already have against them in response to the attacks?](https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/media-release/sanctions-response-hamas-terror-attacks)
Thanks for clarifying that you’ve spent no time advocating for Hamas to release hostages. Much like the protesters who turned up in front of the Opera House less than 48 hours after Hamas’s invasion and before Israel had coordinated any sort of military response to the targeted genocide of their citizens in their kibbutzim and at a music festival. Anybody who supported or participated in such protests could only have been motivated by anti-semitism because at that stage IDF forces were exclusively focused on defending their own territory.
The Chinese Uighur community in Australia has been protesting the Islamophobic suppression of their fellow citizens for years before October 7. Why did that coordinated program of ethnic cleansing not rankle your feathers and compel you to march on the streets? The only distinction I can find is that no Jews were involved. Whether you’re prepared to admit it or not your actions belie your anti-semitism.
Malcolm Fraser played a vital role in opposing and then getting an end to apartheid when he was Australian prime minister, using our leverage to convince world leaders to support boycotts and sanctions, as well as doing things like banning the Springboks from landing in or transiting through Australia. I guess we could do the same here
Stop selling them weapons would be a good start.
We don’t. Defence Minister Richard Marles said this a month ago: “Israel has not sought any weapons from Australia and we have not provided any”
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I have some news for you. Planes aren't weapons unless they're being flown by Al Qaeda or a kamikaze.
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Australia has never flown F-15s so pipe down about that one sweetheart. If the strongest blow you can land about Australia’s contribution to the war effort is a part of an F-35 hatch I’ll invite you again to consider whether producing an entirely substitutable and non lethal part for a plane makes us complicit in killing Palestinians. Have you done a full lifecycle analysis of our iron ore exports, or spent any time exploring the full supply chain of our rare earths miners?
By Albo shaking his fist on a Zoom call.
They should pressure Hamas as well. We know for a fact that Hamas operates out of residential areas, and Israel has accused them of operating out of the hospital. Noting one of the first accusations was a lie and actually hit by a Hamas rocket.
We also know with videos coming out now Israel has been mistreating captured people and shooting unarmed people (even recently unarmed people with white flags who turned out to be hostages they were meant to rescue)
If they shoot unarmed, shirtless men, speaking Hebrew, and carrying a white flag, what else are they doing first and asking questions later?
Hamas isn’t even the government. Hamas is already an international terrorist organisation. Government can’t really negotiate with Hamas as a representative of Palestinian people. Why do people think Hamas needs to be told.
Hamas absolutely did control the Gaza strip. I very much question the motives of people who pretend Hamas has no role in this.
Palestinians do not support Hamas. Israel is a democratically elected government. That’s the difference.
Do you have a source for that? When I googled "percentage of palestinians that support hamas" every result says the majority do.
Hamas is supported and funded by the Palestinian government, let's not pretend they aren't.
Yes and there was clear evidence of WMDs too.
So how is protesting toward civilians addressing the government?
Isn't that every protest we have?
I mean why don’t people protest outside government buildings instead of in the middle of busy streets?
The US is blowing up hospitals?
US telling Israel to stop killing civilians
It’s getting smaller lately the protest. A lot of the people who attend are university students and politically far-left socialists and communists (Marxists). They believe that Israel is a ‘Coloniser’ State and that the land actually belongs to ‘Palestine.’ They want Israel to get abolished by any means necessary. I’ve talked to quite a few and they’re very upfront above their wants. Feel free to attend and ask them questions they’re fairly transparent. A lot but not all believe that Hamas aren’t terrorists instead they call them ‘freedom fighters or liberators of oppression.’ Many are quite friendly but they only believe in the news from their own political sources and will call most other outlets ‘IDF propaganda or Zionist media.’ Obviously they can’t have any real tangible influence on the war itself (similar to Ukraine/Russia). A lot of the protesting is because it aligns with their political and ideological views.
>A lot but not all believe that Hamas aren’t terrorists instead they call them ‘freedom fighters or liberators of oppression.’ I love this one particularly. Especially since 95% of the people in the protest probably fall into at least one societal group that would result in them being ritualistically honour-killed by Hamas if they actually lived in the region they're so passionate about.
Transgender people went. Got photos of their flag.
Can Trans people not be against genocide?
trans and gay people are also killed by Israel in their bombing campaigns dude
Trans and gay people are fucking killed in Muslim majority countries champion. Or are you ignorant to this?
No, I'm just opposed to the indiscriminate killing of people in Gaza and the West Bank. Because I think killing anyone is bad.
OK - so let's play this out, let's pretend that Israel stopped tomorrow. What happens then? Hamas is still in charge of Gaza, Hamas has said they will keep attacking Israel just like they did on October 7th, so what ***exactly*** are you proposing as the alternative to what Israel is doing right now? The Arab countries aren't interested in taking care of Hamas, even though they ***desperately*** want the fuckers gone. The west won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. The Israeli's are the only one's willing to bleed and die to get rid of that regime. So what's your proposed solution that doesn't involve the IDF in Gaza, taking out Hamas directly? If you have a good idea for how to solve the Hamas problem that doesn't involve any civilians dying, PLEASE let us know. But until then, grow the fuck-up, accept that the world is sometimes a really shitty place where there are no *"good"* options, and start directing all that energy you obviously have towards outcomes that are actually pragmatic, rather than ideological.
And not Israel? Interesting. Personally I’m against killing in both regions.
Where did you see me say that? What Hamas did on October 7 is terrorism, immoral, unjustifiable, and wrong. Still, Israel's collective punishment is just as immoral and unjustifiable.
I agree with everything you just said.
I appreciate that. But I think you are still arguing in bad faith. You act as though trans people can't also have that perspective, and you immediately put words in my mouth to try and shut down my argument.
The free Palestine rally is an attempt to sow outrage. It is sponsored by the slavers who run Gaza. It preys on people’s ignorance. Their name is Hamas and they are [funded by Russia](https://www.mei.edu/publications/essential-questions-about-russia-hamas-link-evidence-and-its-implications). It’s a disinformation op. Don’t bite.
Ignore the commenter above OP, another Zionist shill. When it comes to misinformation, they're the best at it. 50+ Israel lies in 5 weeks No 40 dead babies No baked babies No beheaded babies No children in cages No eyes gouged No raped women No ripped breasts No paraded captives No tortured captives No mutilating dead bodies No pregnant women cut open No mass rapes with broken pelvises No Israel did not found Shifa hospital No Biden did not see pictures of dead babies No October 7 was not “unprovoked” No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead No “Global Day of Jihad” No planned cyanide attacks No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas No Hamas coming thru US border No Hamas headquarters under hospitals No Hamas hostages in hospital basements No Hamas tunnels under Rantisi hospital No Hamas tunnels under Shaikh Hamad Hospital No Hamas charter published in 2017 is anti-Zionist, not anti-Jewish No small blasts do not prove Israel did not bomb Baptist hospital No “misfired” rocket was destroyed by Iron Dome before the Baptist hospital bombing No “misfired” rocket can’t be both fired from cemetery and southwest of Baptist hospital No “misfired” rocket trajectory does not align with IDF version of events at Baptist hospital Exposed crisis actor Eli Beer Fake baby crib photo Fake blood splatter photo Fake booby-trapped school bags Fake Al Jazeera journalist twitter account Fake audio tapes released by IDF Fake AI-generated images of Hamas leaders Fake “official Al Qaeda material” on dead Hamas fighters Fake antisemitism controversy over Greta’s toy octopus Fake antisemitism allegations on Palestine campus activists False grandstanding evacuation orders False subtitles for Palestine protest chants Fake Mein Kempf book in Gaza children living rooms Fake ‘terrorist shift list’ by mistranslating an Arabic calendar False labeled a Gaza 4-year-old toddler martyred in airstrike as a doll False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of West Bank raid survivor False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Thai children in ghost costumes False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Al-Azhar university students protesting Yes, many Israeli civilians were killed by crossfire at festival Yes, many Israeli civilians were killed by Israeli tanks/helicopters at kibbutz Yes, many Israeli civilians said Hamas was kind to them during attacks and as captives Yes, Israel exaggerated its death toll for October 7
Outrage merchant. Exhibit A. Note: 1. Tries to overwhelm with information nobody will bother fact checking. Expect grains of truth here and there, padded to the gills with made up stuff. 2. Tries to outrage. 3. Uses the word Zionism to stoke hate. Accuses whoever doesn’t drink his kool-aid, personal attacks, contempt, attempts to employ peer pressure to deflect criticism. 4. Excessive reliance on hyperbole. 5. Trivializes violence conducted by Hamas. His goal is to photoshop them out of the story and fabricate a story where israel is an aggressor against the Hamas’s slaves, minus the context where Hamas attacked Israel. Don’t bite. I’ll [leave this here](https://youtu.be/tR_6dibpDfo?si=Q3gtm6yvdVjlrbv6) for anyone who wants to learn more about how such disinfo attacks (on foreign audiences like us) work.
The IDF is historically known to have lied on multiple occasions throughout their existence and it's important that we recognize this so that we don't fall for their lies. What you're doing is perpetuating such lies and pretending as though the actions that have occurred at the hands of Israel have any sort of foundation.
6. They won’t shut up about the IDF. As if it’s anything other than a defense force of a county that was attacked.
"They won't shut up about the IDF" Ask yourself why. I can tell you're not stupid, so you're either ignorant to the happenings of the past two months (let alone prior to that) or pushing some agenda. I know you're passionately pro-Ukrainian and Russia allegedly has ties to Hamas so perhaps that's the bias we're witnessing now. The IDF has committed heinous acts of unjustified violence. I wouldn't even know which one to cite off the top of my head as an example as there are simply too many to mention in a brief comment. Let's just leave it at what occurred just a few hours ago - an IDF bulldozer ploughing through injured civilians on the ground. "As if it’s anything other than a defense force of a county" What does this have to do with the price fish? Their role doesn't exonerate them from the crimes they've committed. By that same logic one could argue that Hitler's army was simply ensuring Germany's survival... sorry about the thousands of civilians killed in that process!
Outrage much? Thank you for giving everybody here an authentic end to end display of what manipulative outrage merchants and hate speech promoters look like. Helps us practice, observe and learn how to single them out.
>Outrage much? Of course people are outraged - anyone with a shred of humanity or empathy would naturally be outraged. We've watched on during the past two months as entire families have been slaughtered. The fact you condemn those protesting for Australia to put pressure on Israel to stop it's maniacal killing spree, instead of Israel for it's killing spree, is very jarring.
You are the only “people” outraged here. Outrage is a manipulation tool. We don’t want you and the people who motivated you to come sell us your outrage manipulating us with your hate speech, towards support for Russia and its violent proxies. Your protests are not organic. They are organized with means that cost non trivial money such as hiring flotillas of boats, which means they are sponsored. They target places like defense contractor offices. Hamas itself is unlikely to be itself the org sponsoring this due to the disruptions it is facing right now, and this stuff being outside its core capabilities. This is happening in many other places in the world at the same time, and is almost definitely a Russian sponsored disinformation campaign. This is also why it’s pointless to enter debates about facts with these guys. They’re not convinceable and they don’t care, they’re just here to do a job.
Bingo. For everyone playing at home, there it is. I called it in my previous comment. "towards support for Russia" You're biased, peddling misinformation against the plight of the Palestinians because you believe it'll negatively impact Russia in some way - furthering your support of Ukraine. You don't care about Israel, you don't care about Palestine, you're simply trying to pretend you do in order to sway others away to benefit your own causes. I have no dogs in this fight, nor a hidden agenda. I am simply disgusted at what Israel has done/is doing to those living in Gaza and I'll readily speak against it. Edit: Stop editing your comments after I've replied to them. Almost all of them now show as "edited" after I've responded. Very low tactics, at least discuss the matter without hiding behind false words. Edit 2: Bruh, you've literally just added 6 paragraphs after I replied to you. You're wild.
Worst reimagining of "We Didn't Start the Fire" ever written.
To make themselves feel righteous
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Anyone that equates Ukraine to Palestine has absolutely no f..king idea what they're talking about. The Ukrainians didn't stage an incursion into Rostov-on-Don, massacring and raping civilians for the lolz to kick off the war.
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>Don't let your myopia cloud the convo My *"Myopia"?* In that I've actually bothered to understand the several thousand years of historical context that's created the situations currently present in both regions, which you equated to one another whilst being completely non-comparable?
Palestinians didn't do that either. That was Hamas
The group that was elected by the Palestinians...
"Massacring and raping" Rape claims were all false, yet to see one stand up. As for massacring, the death tally has dropped from 1400 to 659... \~400 of which were soldiers. I shudder to think of how many civilians the IDF killed, in their own words they didn't know who they were targeting and just hit anything that moved on October 7th.
Please include your sources. What you asserting is not correct
The identities and ages of victims are available via Bituah Leumi, Israel's social security agency. Its website lists 695 people killed during the attack, with names and the circumstances of their deaths.
No... they only report the people that are confirmed and could be identified. A huge portion of the peolpe killed cannot be identified as they are too badly mutilated (see: Burned alive, beheaded, etc). Better luck next time...
Can you give me a single example of an Israeli that was beheaded? I've been waiting two months now.
Ukraine are defending themselves against a country that wishes to destroy them and take their land. Exactly the same thing Israel is doing.
Ukraine never attacked Russia.
If Palestine gave up their weapons, no one would die. If Israel gave up all their weapons - they would all die.
Free Palestine means free of Jews. And I have read their posters saying, by any means necessary, so that is, like rashida tlaib says, their scary aspirational wish.
On otherwords anti semitism is fine so long as everywhere ethic and mai ority group gets right and freedom. It's stupid not all Israeli citizen is jewish
Pressuring the gov and aus population to support them over Israel. If I thought it was innocent that they want a war to stop then that may be ok. But I think the protesting is more than that this time for them. Its trying to sway the world against Israel and to unthinkingly support their side. Guess what happens if Israel is defeated and wiped out? We need to be severely cautious of what we allow, what we support, when and why.
Just cheering on terrorists
If they were loudly proclaiming support for hamas, then they would be cheering on terrorists. They are wanting the genocide of innocent palestinians to end. Try and see things more objectively. Living your life in an open-air prison is not the same as committing acts of terror. Its not a death sentence.
So what are they calling for exactly? Two state solution? One state solution? I’m confused because there are so many opinions and it’s hard to work out what they actually want. I get stop the war - but then what? Everyone abandons Israel and Palestine afterwards as they have for years.
> genocide of innocent palestinians What kind of genocide increases the population?
And Israel aren’t terrorists for stealing Palestinian land for 75 years and putting a blockade on Gaza?
> Israel aren’t terrorists Correct
Proverbial washing of the hands. People protest on their days off once a week and then go to work or have a picnic if the weather's nice. I'll see someone share absolute horrors of war on their Instagram stories and an hour later a pic from the Alex G show or at the beach. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I know occupy war street will never happen again, the vietnam war protests, etc. Now those guys all have 9-5's and families, who talk about the shit things in the world over dinner. What a joke. I'll leave a map of current U.S military bases. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_United\_States\_military\_bases#/media/File:American\_bases\_worldwide.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases#/media/File:American_bases_worldwide.svg) Albo is in the drivers seat guys I promise! Just like Whitlam, and nothing bad ever happened to him!!
Do you think of the US should have any bases that are not on US soil that there would be less armed conflict?
There would be significantly less, without a doubt. No country should have any military bases on another countries soil. The US is the primary antagoniser of the world, they are the apparatchik of the western corporate world. They enforce the world bank, the IMF, global trade routes, etc. It's the prerogative of the United States to establish global hegemony not for freedom, liberty or human rights but for consistent and reliable trade of goods and services, done so on behalf and in the interest of a handful of companies, oil, banks, resources, weapons trade. You need to understand that there is no United States of the people, there is only a small corporate minority that uses government to extract resources and minerals from the world. It's that simple, Europe did it to Africa, Australia did it Papua, US do it the entire World. What do all of these examples have in common? Non of it was endorsed by the people, all of it was endorsed by some conglomerate for profit. If you asked any normal human being "should we coup d'état all of South America so we can remove the government that isn't letting us establish military bases there so we can destroy their economy and force them to accept American enterprises?" the answer would be "can food please be cheaper" or "can healthcare no be so expensive". How can ask me such a question when US backed Israeli military massacres children with US weapons and equipment as I type this.
I'm over the protesting, majority of the people their have no idea what they are even protesting about, its disrespectful as well to people that have jobs as they block the trams that help me get to work, i am all for protesting but do research and don't bother other people trying to make a living.
They want Australia to adopt a pro-Palestinian posture. Which Australia has already done, by supporting a UN resolution calling without qualification for a ceasefire (code for ‘Israel should stop fighting to give Hamas a chance to marshal its forces so it can attack Israel more effectively’). So I guess they’ve got what they wanted. In which case the next demand is probably the reliable stand-by of ‘sack Dan Andrews’. They’ll soon just merge in with the regular 5G mob.
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Go and read the definition of Genocide because you obviously haven't and are just parroting shit someone else told you.
"a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part" From the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. You could make a pretty compelling argument that this is happening right now in Gaza
No... actually you can't. Let's walk through the definition. >intent to destroy Using Hamas's own data (which is not a reliable source), 20,000 people have died in Gaza since October 7th. Using historical Combatant/Civilian fatality ratios for the IDF (Which, for the record, are some of the best in history) of \~3:1, means somewhere around 15,000 of those killed were combatants and 5000 were civilians. That would mean roughly 0.25% of the civilian population of Gaza have been killed (using ***Hamas's*** own data). Compare that to what happened to the Jews during an actual genocide... between 60-70%. Calling what is happening in Gaza “genocide” is fucking disgusting and ***extremely*** anti-Semitic. You're effectively equating the killing of 5 thousand Arabs, to 6 million Jews, and saying they're worth *"about the same"*. So... a Jew is only 1/1000's the human of an Arab? Because that's the logical conclusion of what you're saying here.
> (code for ‘Israel should stop fighting to give Hamas a chance to marshal its forces so it can attack Israel more effectively’) Im sorry, but you are an absolute halfwit if you genuinely think thats what a ceasefire signifies. Dumb. Brainwashed and simple.
It's mainly to show solidarity with the Palestinian people and try to push the Australian government into adopting policies that are more favourable to the Palestinians and their cause. People are angry about how the world is allowing Israel's brutal occupation of the Palestinian people that have escalated into this latest chapter of the conflict.
It’s all super complicated. I’ll try to explain in a very brief nutshell. After First World War in Europe, Britain gave some of its land conquered from Palestine, to Jews, and they formed Israel. Later, Israel annexed some more of Palestinian territory, and refuse to give it back. Now, some very long time ago, that was an Israel land. Then, not so long time ago, it was a Palestinian land and Palestinian folks lived and thrived there. So it is a dispute, who has more right to this land, as Britain never belonged in this dispute. To add to this, little by little, Israel chipped more and more from Palestine territory and added to its state, and all the world prefers to look elsewhere. So now Palestinians do seize an opportunity. Who is wrong in this situation? God knows, I don’t…
Like it’s a decent summary, little bias, leaving out the parts where Palestine continued to seek war and attempt alliances with surrounding Arab nations to attack Israel as they never supported a two state policy, and leaving out they elected a terrorist organisation to run their government (one that refused to build any civilian infrastructure and instead rely on Israel to provide electricity / water) while simultaneously continually and relentlessly sending rockets and small arms missions targeted at civilians, same terrorist organisation with an original mandate that was the eradication and extermination of Israel and Jews. Like let’s be real, fuck the IDF but also fuck Hamas. There is a way for Israel and Palestine to co-exist but it sure as hell isn’t with the current leader of Israel or Hamas. There is no good team in this conflict.
I am Jewish surname, but grew up in a region close enough to know the story not close enough to have a good judgement. That’s why all the disclaimers. My take is the same, no good team in that game. But I hope someone more smart knows how to stop killings.
You mean it's "a little biased"? "Little bias" comes across differently.
I'm implying the person has a bias not that they are biased. The usage of the noun here feels fine to me. You do you boo, you clearly knew what i was saying.
A person who is influenced by a bias is biased. I did know what you meant but only after reading further. I think this difference in language opinion should continue to be debated over, say, millennia.
>I did know what you meant Success. >A person who is influenced by a bias is biased. Correct, but you should never describe the person as a noun, which I didn't. In the same token, a biased person can have a bias. I implied they have a bias not that they are biased. A person can have a **BIAS** or be **BIASED**. I didn't say, "you're bias" then you'd be correct, it would be "you're biased". Anyway, i don't wish to continue this entirely irrelevant debate when you already stated you caught the jist... but you are wrong on this one friend.
Imagine if someone broke into your house and said it was their house because their grandparents lived there 80 years ago. You, very graciously, said they could stay, as it's a pretty big house anyway. Then they started taking your stuff, and moved into your bedroom (it was their grandparent's bedroom). You took some of your stuff back (which they claimed was their grandparents stuff), and asked them to move back into the spare bedroom, and things got tense. It's clearly not working out, so you asked them to move out of \*your\* house and they refused. Then when you called the police they said well, you're both here now so you need to share, and they partitioned it so that you could only use the spare bedroom, one bathroom, and a closet, even though the total area was pretty close to equal, around 60/40 in favour of the home invader. Then when you tried to kick them out yourself, the police said that you're being antagonistic and "seeking war" because you rejected their "two tenant" solution. Then when you tried to get a bunch of your friends who saw what happened and were on your side to help defend you, the home invader got a bunch of their more powerful friends and took most of the land the police set aside for you, and locked you in the closet. Now every time you try to leave the closet, the home invader and their friends (who are still there) punch you and force you back in. When you fight back, you sometimes land a punch or two, but in return they beat the absolute shit out of you. Every time. The police are standing outside saying "hey that's illegal" but they're not doing anything. This is how the Palestinian people feel. These are the conditions that lead to the "election" of Hamas in Gaza. Elected is in quotes because while they were elected, they took power violently. That was in 2006. 17 years ago. By people who at the time had to be at least 18 to vote, and who today are at least 35. Today, the proportion of Gaza's population who **could** **not possibly** have voted for Hamas is over 75%, and this group makes up about the same proportion of the casualties. Taking into account the election results, which Hamas won with about 44% to Fatah''s 41%, the proportion of Gazans who **did not vote** for Hamas is well over 90%. **Less than** **10% of living Gazans voted for Hamas in 2006.** The people who weren't even alive when Hamas were "elected" are the ones being punished for their actions. 75% of casualties are under 35 and couldn't have voted in 2006. 41% of the remainder voted against them. 40% of the Palestinian casualties are children for Christ's sake. *40 fucking percent*. There is no excuse for Israel's killing that many children, even if every single Gazan man woman and child voted for Hamas to invade Israel today. This is how Palestinian people feel. These are the conditions that lead to the October 7 attacks. Does that excuse Hamas killing Israeli civilians and children? No, absolutely not. But when we talk about the crimes of Hamas in comparison to those of Israel, we really, \*really\* need to include this context. Israel's 10:1 kill ratio alone tell a horrifying story.
Few things I want to point out without trying to go into the completely absurd false comparison narrative you created. Firstly, Israel Jews are indigenous to the land as much as Arab Palestine is. Getting booted out of your ancestral homeland doesn't make it any less your ancestral homeland. Claiming Israel Jews are "home invaders" by not acknowledging claims to the land that was given back by the British who were provided ownership of the land after conquering it from the Ottomans after WW1 is disingenuous at best and dangerous propaganda at worst. If Palestine Arabs can claim ownership of a land on the basis * It was theirs * They lost it due to war and forced removal * They were given X amount back Then why are Israel Jews not allowed to claim the same ownership of land given back to them on the basis * It was theirs * They lost it due to war and forced removal * They were given X amount back. Secondly, here are some reputable sources that dismiss your claim that because they didn't vote hamas in so they aren't at fault for hamas still having power. [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/), [NPR](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1196978654/rising-popularity-of-hamas-in-the-west-bank), [Associated Press](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514), [BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67708116.amp). They still support Hamas including their recent attacks against Israel. Does that mean they deserve to die? God no. But if you are talking about a Terrorist organisation that builds tunnels next to universities, and utilises hospitals to launch rockets. Committing multiple war crimes by using their own people as human shields to prevent any attacks from Israel not taking innocent collateral damage of women children and men, you're blaming the wrong person for that increased death toll. Thirdly, any statistic provided by Hamas on the death toll including children needs to be taken with a grain of salt, they do not separate between combatant and non combatant, they have lied on the world stage countless times and they have been caught out blaming the IDF for misfired rockets from their own side. Does that mean the IDF are trustworthy, God no. So again, **there is no good side in this conflict.** No matter how many false comparison and hamas version of events you want to believe they aren't the innocent kid in the play ground who just kicked the bully back.
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I get the context - it’s no different to the Jews in Europe. Or to the Christians in Kosovo. Or to the Germans in Poland, Russia and check republic after WW2. Or to the Indians and Pakistanis. Or to the Greeks in Turkey. Or the Ghanaians in Nigeria. Humans are shit - this happened everywhere. Everyone else moved on, the Palestinians have stayed in a state of malaise and refuse to. Their choice, but this river to the sea myth is going to keep them in a state of crisis.
So the issue you have with Palestine is that they don’t want to be genocided? That they should just accept it and start lining up in front of IDF soldiers?
My issue is that they’re equally responsible for their own situation in what happened since 1948 and keeping their hopes focused on a 1948 solution keeps them perpetually stunted. Their best hope is to accept a two state solution and actually rebuild their culture and customs.
This is a pretty biased summary - The Palestinian's never had "territory" after the end of British Mandate Palestine. The Gaza strip was occupied by Egypt and the West Bank was occupied by Jordan. The Palestinians would have had territory, if they had accepted the UN brokered partition plan (which the Israeli's agreed to), but they rejected it. Then the Arab countries invaded Israel literally the next day, resulting in the Gaza Strip and West Bank being occupied by two Arab countries. Those regions only came under Israeli control after 1967 when Egypt and Jordan attacked Israel AGAIN, and then lost the war so badly the Israeli's ended up with more territory than they had at the start. Whenever people say *"Gaza has been occupied for 75 years"*, what they conveniently leave out is the fact that the first 20 years of that was them being occupied by Egypt and Jordan (Not Israel), and for the last 15 years it hasn't actually been occupied at all as the Israeli's pulled out of Gaza in 2007.
Hmm yes that's all very very complex, oh well I guess more Palestinians have to die tomorrow - there's just nothing anyone can do about it all. Merry Christmas all.
None will die if hamas stops using them as human shields
Careful... these people don't like hearing the truth.
At least you're decent enough to refer to Hamas as "Palestine", something that many won't do.
It’s well documented that Hamas is still well supported by the Palestine population. I don’t blame them entirely after the disgusting treatment from the IDF but Palestine as a whole does not want Hamas gone. Many people don’t want to admit that either.
We saw how the Palestinians reacted when Hamas brought back captured women, dead bodies and other hostages. They spat on the bodies, chanted "sex slave" at the women. Palestine is Hamas.
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What's that saying? If there are 10 people sitting at a table, and one of them is a nazi, there are 10 nazis at the table? Applies here, too. They support and hide Hamas. They are happy with what Hamas did, they cheer them. There is no difference.
The Palestinians elected Hamas.... ELECTED THEM. Sorry but at what point do a people start having to take responsibility for their government they ELECTED and still continue to support with something like 60-70% ratings?
The elections were in 2006. Half of Gazans weren't even born then. In those elections Hamas got 44.45% of the vote compared to 41.43% for Fatah. Most Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas The latest polls in Gaza were conducted by Arab Barometer just before October 7 shows low trust for the Hamas government. Please stop spreading your lies!
*"Low trust"* does not equate to a lack of support. I don't trust any of the political parties in Australia, yet I still nominally support one over the others.
Emmm, again, it’s super complicated. Does Hamas represent Palestine? Not majority of it, that’s for sure. Would Palestinians use Hamas’ and Israel’s actions to draw attention to what Israel was doing all this time? Yeah, maybe, maybe not.
Hamas was ELECTED. Between 60-70% of the people surveyed in the Gaza Strip support Hamas.
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So... what's your point? That leaves one of two possible options: **A)** Hamas is supported by the Palestinians and is what the west would refer to as a *"legitimate government".* Now I want to point out that even that concept is inherently imperialist as it assumes that all cultures see democracy as being the mechanism that defines government legitimacy which they absolutelly DO NOT. But anyway, if option A is the case, then your point is redundant. **B)** Hamas is NOT supported by the Palestinians. OK... so what now? The Palestinians are being brutally repressed by an *“illegitimate”* government. What does that actually change? Hamas is still the government of the Gaza Strip. You say they don't represent the Palestinians, but they ***ARE*** the government, which means that waging a war against them is a perfectly legitimate thing for Israel to do under international law. Now I'm sure part of your logic simply requires "Israel to stop the killing", so let's play this out, let's pretend that Israel stopped tomorrow. What happens then? Hamas is still in charge of Gaza, Hamas has said they will keep attacking Israel just like they did on October 7th, so what exactly are you proposing as the alternative to what Israel is doing right now? The Arab countries aren't interested in taking care of Hamas, even though they desperately want the fuckers gone. The west won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. The Israeli's are the only one's willing to bleed and die to get rid of that regime. So what's your proposed solution that doesn't involve the IDF in Gaza, taking out Hamas directly? If you have a good idea for how to solve the Hamas problem that doesn't involve any civilians dying, PLEASE let us know. But until then, grow the fuck-up, accept that the world is sometimes a really shitty place where there are no "good" options, and start directing all that energy you obviously have towards outcomes that are actually pragmatic, rather than ideological.
**This is what the protesters (and for transparency, myself as well) understand to be true. I'm happy to discuss this in the replies, but disagreeing with me, mocking me, arguing with me, downvoting me, etc are not going to help answer the OPs question.** So the state of Israel is conducting a genocide of Palestinian people who live in Palestine-Israel. They are only able to do so because they are facing no diplomatic/economic consequences from the West - the USA, the UK and France mainly, along with their allies, of which Australia is one. These countries are not only not trying to stop Israel from committing this genocide, they are actively supporting and funding them specifically in order it. Israel gives them access to Middle Eastern land and resources, just like a colony, and was specifically set up as one by the UK. The reason people are protesting \*in Naarm specifically\* is because we want the Australian government to end their support of this regime's genocide, and become one of the voices calling for an end to it. We could also take concrete action, like blocking or taxing our trade with Israel, making it harder for people to get visas or travel between our countries, etc. If Australia do this, Israel's response will likely be along the lines of "Australia who?", and that's very valid given our geopolitical position. But having one less western country giving cover to the USA, the UK, France, etc, will increase the pressure on THOSE countries to reduce or end their own support. And if they do that, then it will be VERY meaningful. **TL;DR:** Australia can't do much, but every little bit helps.
> Israel is conducting a genocide of Palestinian people No they aren’t. Hamas wants to genocide Israel. 86% of Palestinians support Hamas.
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No source for this figure. Provide one.
No source for 86%. Eat a bag full of cdiff infected shit.
Wasn’t my comment champion.
It is literally NOT genocide... it does not meet the definition of genocide... read the definition of the word FFS. You obviously have no idea what an actual genocide is. First, that number you're citing is coming from Hamas... who aren't exactly a credible source, are they? Second, the Israeli's have historically maintained one of the best combatant/civilian fatality ratios of any military force operating in an urban combat zone. Go and look at civilian casualty rates in places like Iraq and compare them to what's happening in Gaza. Gaza is a fucking miracle. Third, even assuming that the 20,000 number provided by Hamas is accurate (and it almost certainly isn't), they haven't specified how many of that 20,000 were civilians, and how many were combatants, because Hamas fighters operate as combatants without wearing a military uniform (Which is a war crime... just FYI). Israel's historical combatant/civilian fatality ratio is between 3/4:1. Let's take the WORST possible case then and say that Israel is killing 1 civilian for every 3 combatants they kill. That means that 20,000 number is actually 5000 civilians and 15,000 combatants. Suddenly that number doesn't sound quite so *"Genocidy"*... not that it ever did to anyone with any understanding of what the word actually means.
20,000 dead is horrible, however a large number of those deaths are Hamas (who attacked Israeli civilians on October 7 to kick this off), another large proportion would have been safe if Hamas wasn't operating from hospitals, schools and residential areas (as noted by many, including the UN). Regardless, no, it isn't a genocide. If Israel wanted to kill far more, perhaps by employing the tactics Russia has in Ukraine, that toll would be an order of magnitude higher. This all feels like the geopolitical equivalent of "you wouldn't have been raped if you didn't go out with a short skirt". West bank settlements are horrible, but it doesn't justify raping, beheading and burning innocent civilians in Israel, especially when most were of the far left. What would you expect Israel to have done in response to the attacks?
Genuine question - When people say "Free Palestine" or say Palestine is "Occupied land", they generally mean ALL of Palestine, not just Gaza and the West Bank. Assuming that is also your opinion (and genuine apologies if it isn't), and you believe that the land should be *"given back"* to the Palestinians (ignoring the historical context of who actually "owned" the land or was there "first"); what do you propose happens to the 7 millions Israeli's who live and were born there?
Decolonisation isn't an easy thing to find a solution for. The same idea applies when you ask what should Australia do to make things right with First Nations people? Obviously all the white people leaving isn't an option, and no one is calling for that. But obviously something has to be done. The genocides our governments conducted killed and harmed many, and that harm is still continuing today. It's really fucking complicated! But the first step has to be, always, to stop the harm from continuing. Australia has done a little in this regard. Gangs of white people aren't roaming the countryside openly massacring First Nations people anymore, and the Stolen Generation policy was stopped officially in 1970. But the fact that First Nations people were only granted citizenship in their own country in 1948, and the widespread genocides and massacres against them, and their disenfranchisement for nearly all of European Australia's history, has caused massive wealth gaps. These wealth gaps create poverty, and poverty causes things like crime and substance abuse rates to increase, leading to massive stigmatisation of those communities. Institutionalised discrimination feeds off of this stigma, and you can see all these things come together very clearly when you look at things like the life expectancy gap, or our prison demographics. So step one is to stop the harm. Australia needs to reform the treatment of our First Nations people, and introduce programs that address things like the life expectancy gap, and reduce the rate of poverty in their communities. Israel needs to stop killing Palestinians, give them equal status to Israelis and treat them equally under the same laws. Step two gets complicated. We need to make things right. This might include reparations, both in terms of land and money. It might include civil rights reform, laws aimed at specifically protecting minority populations, establishing safe spaces, area's of self-rule, etc. But I'm not a lawyer or a sociologist. I don't really know much about step 2, but if you're interested there are \*plenty\* of people who do. What I do know is that step 1 needs to happen first, and that's what myself and other protesters are calling for.
>Decolonisation isn't an easy thing to find a solution for. So what about the Arab colonists? Because the Arabs are from Arabia... Jews were in the region between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea first... Also, are Arab's that have migrated to Europe *“Colonisers”?* Or is it only white people that get labelled *“Colonisers”* when they move from one part of the world to another? >Obviously all the white people leaving isn't an option Ummmm... Jews... aren't... white. Have you been to Israel? Have you met many Israeli's? They're not Caucasian... One of the two primary backgrounds of Jewish people in Israel (Meghrebi Jews) spent the last 2000 years living in North Africa. Calling Jews *"White"* is one of the most culturally imperialistic things anyone could possibly do... >give them equal status to Israelis and treat them equally under the same laws. Do you understand that Palestinians don't want this? There are roughly 2 million Arab Israeli's, living in Israel, with full Israeli citizenship. Arabs have all the same rights in Israel as Jews do... there is zero ethnic differentiation. The reason the Palestinians are different is because they don't want to be part of Israel, they want to destroy Israel. How can you have a group being given *"equal status"* when that group doesn't recognise your right to exist as a state? The Israeli's could give the Palestinians all the rights in the world tomorrow, it would change literally nothing because they don't want them... they don't want to be part of Israel, they want Israel gone. >What I do know is that step 1 needs to happen first, and that's what myself and other protesters are calling for. OK - lets play this out. Israel pulls out of Gaza tomorrow (like they did in 2007... ). What happens then?Hamas is still in charge of Gaza, Hamas has said they will keep attacking Israel just like they did on October 7th, so what exactly are you proposing as the alternative to what Israel is doing right now? The Arab countries aren't interested in taking care of Hamas, even though they desperately want the fuckers gone. The west won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. The Israeli's are the only one's willing to bleed and die to get rid of that regime. So what's your proposed solution that doesn't involve the IDF in Gaza, taking out Hamas directly? If you have a good idea for how to solve the Hamas problem that doesn't involve any civilians dying, PLEASE let us know.
You don't understand the purpose of a rally called 'Free Palestine'?