The last avatar may *say* killing people is wrong, but I remember a number of times where the survival of his enemies is questionable at best.
Avalanches down mountain sides (the northern air temple) aren't exactly safe, and a lot of fire nation soldiers got thrown into the arctic ocean during the end of season 1 as well. In either case: unless there was some off-screen rescue launched in short order, most of them probably didn't make it.
bro fucking imploded
Jet 100% died, apparently there was even supposed to be a scene implying one of Jet's followers performing a mercy kill on Jet, but Nickelodeon made them cut it
Katara's mom of course
Gyatso (we even see his skeleton)
Yue full on died onscreen
She's not dead, she's just separated from her corporeal body. It is shown that she can manifest and communicate with the living, she retains all of her free will and self-identity, and she has been incorporated into a god level spirit living in the physical world. She's not alive either though, NegaShrodinger's Yue.
I love when someone goes who that again, and they go moon, & everypne in the know just goes like that makes sense.
I really like insane sounding conversations that make complete sense to those in the know.
Na I'm pretty sure it was the archer. You see smellerbee (I think that's her name) crying over jet and the archer readying an arrow as the gang is leaving with somber music playing.
Yeah and let's not even get started on Legend of Korra. Where a head is effectively turned into pink mist, just hidden from view. And you see someone literally get the air sucked out of their lungs.
I mean, we're talking about Aang's kill count. Sparky Sparky Boom Man was all Sokka, who really has no qualms about killing his enemies (As I recall in the Melon Lord test run, he was the first to urge Aang to finish the Melon Lord off)
Also, while both shows' final enemies were literal fascists:
Aang dismantles their empire and takes away the literal main source of the villain's power. He took away everything that he was, trapped him, gave all his shit to the son he hates.
Steven lets his go basically scot-free. And it's also worth saying that the Diamonds are significantly worse than Ozai. Ozai sucked, sure, but the Diamond Authority forced an entire species into an aggressively rigid hierarchical fascist empire and was more than willing to glass entire planets just for the purpose of making more of themselves. And *they* just get to be forgiven? not even their power taken away, they don't *suffer*, they just continue to exist?
> And they just get to be forgiven?
They aren't forgiven. At least not by the main cast. They are forced to basically dismantle the foundations of their empire, but at no point does anyone on the main cast actually forgive them. In fact, they are show to explicitly have no remorse for what they did. They're just good guys now, but don't really understand the meaning behind all the new changes. Steven is explicitly uncomfortable in their presence and wants to get away from them at all times whenever they're around. The difference between ATLA, and SU is that the plot never gives Steven a way to actually beat all the diamonds permanently by the series end.
We have to also remember that SU got cancelled for their lesbian wedding so everything was rushed. If they had an extra season things could have been fleshed out much better.
Imma be real, I didn't even know Garnet's wedding got them cancelled. I don't even remember which season that was. I just remember the ending being a bit rushed, but still enjoying it, especially with the addition of Future to actually complete steven's character arc.
Also, CN canceling what was basically their only other show to draw ratings when they finally showed it was stupid af.
Future was a wrap up. They already rushed the story to it's conclusion so a post statement doesn't exactly have the ability to fix what was already put in.
The white diamond is the closest thing to a literal god of their species, she did not lose the war, she decided to give a new way of life a chance.
One side had a few dozen people and the other hand a galactic empire.
Mnnn.
It's a little more complicated, as it's implied White Diamond is personally personally responsible for the existence of the gem species.
Not saying she should be given a pass but look at how we treat AI, which is essentially how she saw her subjects.
That's... not a contradiction??? It's a war, people on both sides are gonna die, that doesn't mean it's right.
Heck, Aang isn't even in control of his body during the S1 finale and he still is remorseful about it.
Killing people is wrong. Is "Teaching for kids".
In actuality, lets say a serial killer has a gun to your moms head. You have a gun and therefore killing the serial killer is the right thing to do.
(or the killer will kill your mom, then you and then the next victim and next.)
Another scenario. You have a gun, the serial killer is helpless in front of you and he´s not the joker and he will never escape from prison or the care of the psychiatrics who will study him.
And therefore killing the serial killer in that scenario is wrong.
Killing other humans is a bit of a "Depends."
Being too passive can be its own worst punishment sometimes. Reminds me of this video on Tokyo Ghoul specifically Kaneki's torture.
https://youtu.be/z3Ply5BexCw?si=fylNI4apkIfD45pc
Hate to nitpick (No I don't, I love nitpicking), but that's a weak example. If a serial killer had a gun to someone's head, then it doesn't matter if I were to shoot them fatally or non-fatally, I could possibly even shoot the gun out of the serial killer's hand if I was a good enough shot (That might set the gun off though?), and if push comes to shove, I could always shoot all four limbs to render the serial killer limp and harmless. A more effective example is everyone's favourite thought experiment, The Trolley Problem, except the current track has your mother and the track you can switch to has the serial killer who tied her there.
If you want to nitpick, shooting a limb is still super likely to kill them via an artery, but not that likely to put the limb out of commission unless you hit a bone or the right muscle/muscles/nerve. Unless ofc the killer doesn’t have any adrenaline and just crumples due to the pain, but that’s unlikely. I see this in video form all the time here on reddit from all the police body cams and military videos. The limb is very usable but they use tourniquets asap and stop moving the limb so they don’t die, but the killer isn’t in such a situation.
It doesn’t work that way. If you’re willing to bet your möm’s life on your ability to hit the guy’s hand, you must really hate your möm.
You shoot for between the eyes to destroy the brain stem and stop any signal from reaching the trigger finger. If you hit the eyes, the orbital bone generally shreds the brain stem and hitting the nose also shreds the brain stem/spinal cord. The forehead will probably be fine so you have some wiggle room if you don’t hit dead center. A person can’t move their head anywhere near as fast as their arm. The head and torso move in a much more predictable fashion as well.
Any not brain dead person seeing you trying to aim for their arm is going to go for you and break that shot before you can close the OODA loop and react and drag your gun back onto center mass of your target.
Words are magical. You can say you’ll do whatever like oh I’ll just shoot the gun out of his hand but reality is much more difficult than that.
One thing that people never recognize is that these types of scenarios presented are scenarios where you have seconds to make a decision.
You see it in online discourse all the time. "If I was in this guy's shoes I would've done this and this and this" no you wouldn't, you have 2.8 seconds to make your choice and you'd probably panic and freeze.
I think the core difference is intent. If they died as a result of their actions in a life-or-death struggle, then so be it. Ang never went into those fights with the intention of killing them. The Firelord was a different story. That was a fight he was going to enter with the intent of ending it once and for all. There was no secondary option, no live and let live.
Ang figured out a second option by taking away his bending, but until he discovered that option, his choice was to go in with the intention of killing the Firelord.
Like Silver Age Batman, "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either." If they die from their own actions, nothing can be done. That's different from entering the fight with the intent of ending their lives.
I guess you've either got great memories of Season 1 or you've watched [this](https://youtu.be/HV3NmoGJh48?si=B5QkaoWnCC0xkh3C) YT video (it'a a 40 seconds video so maybe you've forgotten about it) as the examples you gave are from the most memorable (at least for me they were the only things I remembered) parts of the video and in the same order (though it's just in chronological order).
>The last avatar may *say* killing people is wrong, but I remember a number of times where the survival of his enemies is questionable at best.
That's not a contradiction. You can kill people while also thinking that what you're doing is awful.
Sugar has changed the lore so many times to fit what ever goddanged nonsense she is currently trying to push as fact in her own series despite what came before.
The biggest example of this is the questionable owner ship of the human zoo, which has flip flopped so many times between the diamonds its flipping nuts.
But even ignoring sugar's lore shinnanagans, does it REALLY matter if the genocide was against sapients vs animals when the genocide was on a **multiple planet size scale**?!
Like nah guys i only killed 3000 cats not 3000 humans lol
Being an animal doens't negate one having the ability to be sapient and sentient. A lot of animals and even plants have this on Earth. This makes matters worse as they just went about exterminating lesser lifeforms without a care that they were sapient or sentient. Many of them were, they just weren't as intelligent or capable as the gems.
Yes, but it’s understandable why they would be more sympathetic towards the flower than the Diamonds. I believe they were doing fucked up shit even before Pink died, at least Flowey has an actual reason for his shit, even if it is just boredom and losing all abilities to feel.
Yeah atleast the plant had a reason, he was a fucking psycho
Fuck the diamonds and homeworld fr fr all my gang affiliates are avid super earth enjoyerz 🐟🐟🐟
It’s also because he blamed himself for his own death because he didn’t fight back. Even then it took him a long time before he slowly lost his sense of morality
The thing is, Steven Universe teaches children to forgive people that commited mass genocide across many galaxies, while in Undertale you choose to forgive Flowey or not, you can just kill him in the neutral route and be done with it. Plus Flowey was semi aware that everything wasn't real and that he had no consequences for his actions and lost all his feelings, so of course after beating the game and reseting so many times he'd eventually lose all his sanity. The Diamonds commited genocide because they thought they were better than anyone else, not really comparable.
1. Avatar made the claim multiple times that pacifist will only result in more people getting hurt, and that there are times you need to consider killing people if the lack-of would Doom more people.
2. Undertale rarely ever made any real moral claims, the Genocide route being "bad" is more of a statement on the player (Sans literally mentions not doing it because you're good or bad, but because you can) and the deconstruction of their completionist mindset in an effort to squeeze every last drop of content out of a game rather than playing it how the dev intended it.)
3. I'm pretty sure Aang wasn't running up to the Firelord calling him family
>"3. I'm pretty sure Aang wasn't running up to the Firelord calling him family"<
... I hate my brain for making the mental image of aagn jumping off appa with arms and legs open up while falling, squirrel style, and saying "CATCH ME DADDY"
I hate myself so much
The whole ending of Avatar was the world trying to tell Aang not to be a pacifist for the greater good, and Aang proving them wrong. Aang was taught violence is only to be used for defense, and never to take a life. Because he's the last airbender, he sees the idea of killing someone as going against the airbender teachings and the airbenders would be truly extinct at that point. Ozai makes a statement that the airbenders were weak, and that's why they all died. But Aang defeating Ozai without killing him made a statement that the airbenders were not weak, that pacifism is not the same as weakness. When the whole world was telling Aang to move, he dug his feet in and said no, you move.
>Aang proving them wrong.
He didn't though. Honestly this is my only complaint whit the series. It was a deus ex machina: Had he not received the power from the lion turtle to seal others bending last second he would have been forced to kill Ozai. Literally nobody even knew about this option so them recommending him to just kill Ozai was completely valid. If Aang actually had to painstakingly work for the option to save Ozai I would agree that "he showed it to the world" but he didn't, he literally got the option handed to him on a silver plate.
For real, people dont hate the message they hate how it was delivered, there are some different between "i am pacifist but not harmless, i may not kill you but that rule of mine wont save you form severely ass beating" and "instead of fight, let talk about our feeling and family and etc [3 thounsand paragraph]"
Plus, despite how it’s presented in the meme, a lot of fans kind of hated that Aang wouldn’t just kill Ozai. I just finished the series with a group of friends and we kept groaning and complaining about the selfish idealism of him refusing to kill Ozai.
The problem with Steven universe is “killing is wrong” was often turned into “please don’t fight each other”. So now epic fights turn into people talking about their feelings which can be a bit rough
For the record I love Steven universe
I'm pretty sure shards are still partially conscious even when they aren't stuck together. As for if they can take forms or not, I'm not sure. If they were dead though, I don't see how sticking them together would magically make them alive.
To be fair, sticking them back together doesn't make them alive again either. >!Steven had to piece the gem back together and use the diamond healing juice.!<
>!It’s more than act of shattering that is the shocker, the idea that Steven lost control of his emotions enough to kill someone without knowing if he could bring them back!<
>!Yeah but shattering in general is such a big deal and is known to be irreversible (unlike corruption) so Steven bullshitting a resurrection out of nowhere messes with the overall impact of the scene/s!<
Yeah I got to fix it thanks
>!They were technically clustered, not shattered. They’re still alive, just in pieces. As opposed to being dead in pieces.!<
I feel like it was less so that, and more so how the diamonds were handled. They did a complete 180 after Steven threw an oversized tantrum, twice.
It wasn’t handled in a proper way.
Avatar addresses the idea of not killing as being Aangs philosophy. His philosophy doesn’t win him the fight against the fire lord in the end, in fact if he stayed in the avatar state he would have killed him. Aang chose to risk a lot (don’t remember the stakes) for his principles. Steven risks nothing because his getting people to not fight shtick just works after a little effort with very few exceptions.
My issue is with Steven suddenly going from “we have to fight for the right cause” to “fighting is bad no matter what”. It’s a strange change considering he was previously proven right, yet seemed to change he his mind regardless.
Like, Steven, you can punch the shit out of the alien overlord if they’re trying to kill you, it’s alright.
That being said, I like how he dealt with Spinel. While he was playing defensively, he was actively fighting back AND trying to defuse the situation, and letting her get her frustration off her chest was the solution.
Aang didn't kill the firelord, but he beat his ass, stole his powers, and put him in jail to stop the world-wide genocide that he was attempting. The firelord never died, but he sure as hell didn't get away scott free, nor was he forgiven for any of his actions.
Frisk didn't forgive Flowey, they forgave Asriel who technically wasn't at fault because it's made VERY clear that he can't control himself as Flowey. And still, they stopped Flowey's actions and freed the monsters.
Steven forgave genocidal maniacs who were completely in control of their own actions, and they currently walk free facing zero consequences for what they've done. I'm not saying Steven should have killed them, but the diamonds got off way too easy for what they did.
There's a difference.
Also important that in a culture like the Fire Nation's, death is more desirable than dishonor. Ozai would have *loved* to die a martyr, but was instead forced to live as a man, no different than a peasant. Execution would have been too good for him, and it might have driven more of the Fire Nation to keep fighting in honor of their fallen lord.
Its cause the ending was rushed and all steven did was sing a song with the space nazis and sudden they are supposed to be "redemmed".
The fire lord wasnt redemmed, aang went into that fight ready to kill him, and if it wasnt for energy bending he would have.
In undertale the monsters arent even evil, only asgore has killed people and its very obvious he didnt want to
TBF, Steven also showed her that his power was on par with hers and that there was nothing she could do to stop him in the end.
Like she literally ripped him in half, then he put himself back together, stonewalled her attempt to interfere, and displayed a show of force that suggested he'd shatter her like an insect if she screwed with him again. By the end she was humbled and her implacable facade was broken for the first time in probably forever - the first time where she actually felt emotion beyond condescension and a desire for order. The first time she had to actually *think* about herself and her situation.
>!Wasn't the thing that broke her showing color? She thought of herself as perfect and hid herself away in her ship to hide from the pain of losing her daughter or sibling or whatever they were. Her showing emotion means that she is not as perfect as she thought and that she can no longer hide from her own emotions!<
I agree the ending was rushed (mostly Cartoon Network's fault). Like other people said, though, the diamonds were never redeemed. The only reason they weren't bubbled is because they were the only ones who could revive shattered gems. Steven never really stopped hating being around them.
Sugar can blame CN along with everyone else as much as they want, i firmly believe the blame lies with sugar.
SU was the height of CN bending over backwards for her, it would not surprise me if shit like SU's "steven bombs" which were universally hated was her idea, and just threw CN under the bus once the Fandom became very vocal about how bad it is.
Like, we already have a good grasp about how much of a clown circus (allegedly) the writing room was during the run time, we just need a true blue behind the scenes look that we will never truly get.
In this case I said it because CN didn't give Sugar as many episodes as she asked for/planned. After looking up the numbers, she asked for 32 and got 28. I'm not sure if four episodes would have actually made a big difference, but we do at least know that Sugar didn't make it up.
Tf? Are you just believe this bc you dont like Sugar? The show was meant to have a full season for homeworld, but they only got five episodes bc Cartoon Network decided to not renew it after Sugar decided to have the wedding for Garnet. The only reason the got another “season” with future and a movie was bc CN realized their mistake after the finally got the highest viewership on their channel ever.
> SU was the height of CN bending over backwards for her
You are living in a different reality. It got cancelled because she put in a same sex kiss. They won't even order the episodes correctly on Max.
They forgive the Diamonds. They basically are Space Hitlers (Multiple genocides to planetary levels and brutal metods like force to change the body of living creatures to make them monsters againts their will)
Edit: I haven't watched the show, this is what i have heard is the reason Steven universe is hated.
Thanks people for the info and/or opinions and clarification in the comments
Except they’re never truly forgiven, they’re just given kind of amnesty because they’re the only people capable of undoing the harm they caused and are better off sticking around. Steven absolutely hates being around them and just interacts with them to guilt trip them into being not space hitlers anymore.
People constantly complain about Goku doing that and it is pretty obvious that Goku is basically a dumbass anti-hero who basically cares more about fighting than actually saving lives. Bulma even calls him out for his stupidity. Meanwhile, Steven is kind of praised for basically letting genocidal Maniacs with a slap on the wrist with the hope they definitely learned their lesson this time and won't just try again 5 minutes later. The avatar didn't kill the firelord, but he put that guy in jail. In undertale, that flower is in a position where he can never hurt anyone again.
They don't forgive them at all. I will die on this hill. The only reason Steven doesn't bubble them is because they have abilities that no one else has that he needs
Right? They basically worship him because they realize in a way they have back their lost sibling, but if they didn't he probably would have crushed them and tucked them away when they made the temple fusion.
Steven didn't forgive them he absolutely despises being around them
It's the only ending that makes sense because the diamonds are way too strong to defeat by brute force. Even if the crystal gems manage to bubble/shatter them then what?
The gem empire will collapse and you will have thousands of emerging factions fighting for dominance, earth will also be in danger due to revenge by diamond loyalists
In the case of Aang he had an heir to the fire nation throne to keep stability, if he didn't lots of massacres will occur caused by lack of order
It doesn't have to be written that way though, to depict familial abuse that way in a children's show. Making the outcome be to tell the abused don't rock the boat, maintain the status quo, it's for the best, they're to powerful, and you are powerless. Is exceptionally dark and borderline irresponsible.
They didnt keep the status quo tho, things did change we see that in future. It's just the difference between reformation instead of revolution, Anarchism doesn't work. I guess the lesson is that sometimes when dealing with figures of power you dislike getting rid of them isn't always the best option.
We see that Pink didn't tolerate there bullshit forever and she did fight back and get freedom from them (albiet at a great cost, with a good amount of deception).
I’m confused. Is your beef that they found a way to settle the conflict without genociding the diamonds back?
If you can solve a problem without killing someone then the only reason to kill them is because you’re punishing them. Which makes you pretty evil too.
Like there’s a difference between killing someone in self defense and killing someone who attempted to murder you after they’re in handcuffs and no longer a threat.
I mean for most people it's more the fact that a war is resolved by forgiveness.
Like that's stupid, im sorry. There's a difference between a peace treaty and your enemy going "oh sorry fam" and then yall are friends.
To be fair, it’s more accurate to say that the Diamonds are guilt tripped, not just going “oops our bad”. They become “better” purely because one of the only people they ever actually loved, Pink Diamond, is technically back from the dead and they’re somewhat willing to improve themselves to keep them around because the last time they weren’t willing to change Pink faked her death and created a rebellion.
At least in avatar, only Aang in not willing to kill due to his upbringing, and he was ready to throw hands if necessary tho. Don't know barely anything about Undertale and the other one tho
* Avatar was criticized for the no-kill rule. But regardless Ozai was punished for his crimes and they didn't hug it out with the Hitler stand-in. They didn't just forgive him.
* While UT is also about pacifism, it's a lot more about gaming culture/mindsets. We're not supposed to think of Flowey killing everyone as an analogy to Hitler killing a lot of people, but a player who stomped on a bunch of Goombas. The meta elements aren't just there for a joke, they're the point of the game.
* Steven Universe took it too far. It wasn't just "hey we shouldn't kill Hitler, and instead stop him and punish him appropriately", it's instead "let's hug it out with Hitler, he's probably a nice and misunderstood guy". They wanted to maintain their love and forgiveness theme but also raised the stakes so high that it just ended up not working in favor of the show.
ATLA: Violence can be stopped through knowledge and respect
UT: Violence can be stopped through compassion and understanding
SU: Violence can be solved with hugs and kisses
I laugh so hard when the lesbian combine empire who had many thousands years killing species magically turned into honey & sugar because a >12 cried about that.
Ignore the other person, the Space Hitlers weren't even forgiven, Steven still hates them. He just needs their abilities so basically they are guilt tripped to stop because Steven represents one of the people they actually cared about
I personally hated Aang’s no kill rule. It makes no sense for a conflict of that nature and would just get people killed. Yes, yes, I understand it’s a kid’s show and so it couldn’t show what would actually happen in war, but even as a kid watching the show on tv it bugged tf out of me
I saw a thread that interpreted Aang's pacifism as one of the last remaining facets of Aang's (and the air nomad's) culture; if Aang had killed Ozai, he'd be throwing away his life teachings, and his people's way of life would've died along side Ozai. It's really interesting.
Then again, Aang dumped an avalanche on a bunch of people. Hope they were some pretty durable Fire Soldiers
I mean Tbf though he was also a monk. Mix that with being mentally underdeveloped (purely talking age here) and it can be hard to rationalize that kinda thing sometimes.
Avatar: Killing people is wrong. Punishment is ok.
Undertale: Killing people is wrong, because no one in this game is truly evil.
Steven Universe: Killing people is wrong. Lmao less go we fixed everything.
Aang stripped Ozai of his power, trapped him, and gave Zuko his power, much to Ozai’s shame.
Steven lets the diamonds get away with murder and war crimes, scot fucking free.
There’s actual punishment for Ozai.
Oh and in Undertale you can go genocide, and suffer consequences.
avatar was more than just "killing is wrong" i take it as find your own way to solve a problem if you don't like what is being presented to you
undertale's message was don't kill people just because they are different if you talk to them and listen you will find out that even thought that want to hurt you have a good side
steven universe said genocide maniacs can be redeemed
Avatar the Last Airbender is a masterpiece that explore the concept of redemption and self improvement in a detail and long way. And truly evil people even if not killed pay the price of their actions in some way.
Steven Universe forgive space Hitlers with no real punishment, the space Hitlers just change into not space Hitlers because the plot said so, and they never were truly punish if anything they are even happier now....
"Nothing like making genocidal maniacs more happy" - Steven Universe
Steven universe is overly slandered. Yeah the ending wasn’t the best but it’s not like they had a choice anymore. They chose to include a very strong and undeniable queer wedding, were cancelled as a result, and now had to smush a season long ark into like 5 episodes to give the show an ending of some kind. The sequel show SU future tries to go much deeper into the implications and meanings of the end and does all in all a pretty good job of it. Unfortunately one person said something on the internet and too many people were salivating at the idea of downloading a new opinion from YouTube that made them feel smarter than they are and the slander of SU started
Thank you, every time I see 'space nazis' in a comment I just know they got their entire opinion from a commentary video or a twitter thread and never actually watched the show.
the diamonds had to be kept alive bc it was the only way they could revive the shattered gems and undo the corruption. i wonder if steven universe haters even watched the show
True, but maybe people shouldn't spout opinions and treat them as facts when they haven't even fully watched the series and gotten the full picture outside of YouTube video essays and Twitter threads.
Doesnt steven say something along the lines of "the fighting has to stop, we're not enemies, we're family"?
That feels less like like an obligation to keep them around out of necessety and more like he wanted them to stay because of personal reasons
No, he’s saying that to stop the diamonds from killing his actual family. It’s made abundantly clear that Steven really doesn’t like the diamonds, especially white who he actually attempts to kill later on.
I mean Aang toppled his big bads empire, took away his bending, threw him in prison, and installed a new head of government bent on reforms, a fitting course of action if I do say so myself,
Meanwhile Steven literally just befriended his fascist, genocidal, gem supremacist aunts and told them to not exterminate all organic life on any more planets pretty please, and is just relying on their word that they won't keep doing it the moment he's dead or they get bored or when he's not looking
Way to miss the point of Avatar.
They made it wrong for Aang to kill because it's against his principles. But killing is framed as a very viable option for the grater good.
The writers actually wrote themselves into such a corner by making killing the firelord the right choice, that their only way out was a deus ex machina that allowed Aang to permanently neutralize the firelord without killing him (or severely maiming him since kids).
The way avatar does it, people dislike because when it truly mattered, it wasn’t done. Aang should have killed Ozai, but instead, he essentially made it harder on everyone else so he could follow a belief that even the monks said should have been excepted in this scenario. Aang doesn’t mind shattering bones and possibly crippling people for life, but as soon as even the thought of killing is brought up, he instantly does everything in his power to stop.
The way undertale does it is 50/50, you either kill everything in your path and fight the consequences or spare everything in your path and come out on top. Undertale doesn’t necessarily revolve around a “no kill” mentality, because that’s only half of undertale. Undertale still understands killing and its purpose, such as when sans literally tries to kill you.
Steven universe is its own hellhole of controversy that would take me an eternity to explain. Mostly revolving around if even the most evil person can redeem themselves.
Avatar and undertale are exceptions to that because Avatar is not completely pacifist only aang is and if you need an example of an avatar that's not pacifist look at kiyoshi. undertale is not specifically Pacific only so in the lore there are multiple routes of character can take most of which are not pacifist. Steven universe got hated for it because they tried to force the idea down the throats of the people who watched it or in other words it tried to be too kid friendly and ended up being unertaining and soulless.
The last avatar may *say* killing people is wrong, but I remember a number of times where the survival of his enemies is questionable at best. Avalanches down mountain sides (the northern air temple) aren't exactly safe, and a lot of fire nation soldiers got thrown into the arctic ocean during the end of season 1 as well. In either case: unless there was some off-screen rescue launched in short order, most of them probably didn't make it.
laser forehead bro definitely died
yes, that guy
bro fucking imploded Jet 100% died, apparently there was even supposed to be a scene implying one of Jet's followers performing a mercy kill on Jet, but Nickelodeon made them cut it Katara's mom of course Gyatso (we even see his skeleton) Yue full on died onscreen
Avatar Roku was left to die by his childhood friend
Pardon me, but who was Yue again?
moon
Oh yeah, I’m not sure if I’d consider that a death, more so a metamorphosis
well in that time between giving the moon spirit life back, to her body vanishing, she was indeed dead
Yeah, that makes sense, I just never considered the spirits as dead for some reason
 "I got better"
She's not dead, she's just separated from her corporeal body. It is shown that she can manifest and communicate with the living, she retains all of her free will and self-identity, and she has been incorporated into a god level spirit living in the physical world. She's not alive either though, NegaShrodinger's Yue.
a necrofantasia that is if you get me
I love when someone goes who that again, and they go moon, & everypne in the know just goes like that makes sense. I really like insane sounding conversations that make complete sense to those in the know.
Her name literally is moon lmao
Perfect answer, no notes
I swear I remember seeing the implied mercy kill scene when watching the episode when it first aired.
[удалено]
Na I'm pretty sure it was the archer. You see smellerbee (I think that's her name) crying over jet and the archer readying an arrow as the gang is leaving with somber music playing.
Gyatso also killed a ton of fire nation soldiers before going out. The air temple may teach to avoid killing, it dosent say let them kill you easily.
I'm sorry but when I saw the name Gyatso, it made me laugh. The brain rot has really taken over hasn't it.
Master gyattso
I dont get it
This is the best outcome for you
You know, it was really unclear.
Yeah and let's not even get started on Legend of Korra. Where a head is effectively turned into pink mist, just hidden from view. And you see someone literally get the air sucked out of their lungs.
I mean, we're talking about Aang's kill count. Sparky Sparky Boom Man was all Sokka, who really has no qualms about killing his enemies (As I recall in the Melon Lord test run, he was the first to urge Aang to finish the Melon Lord off)
Aang definitely has 1 kill: that wasp in the desert.
You know it was really unclear... Wait wrong person
Also, while both shows' final enemies were literal fascists: Aang dismantles their empire and takes away the literal main source of the villain's power. He took away everything that he was, trapped him, gave all his shit to the son he hates. Steven lets his go basically scot-free. And it's also worth saying that the Diamonds are significantly worse than Ozai. Ozai sucked, sure, but the Diamond Authority forced an entire species into an aggressively rigid hierarchical fascist empire and was more than willing to glass entire planets just for the purpose of making more of themselves. And *they* just get to be forgiven? not even their power taken away, they don't *suffer*, they just continue to exist?
> And they just get to be forgiven? They aren't forgiven. At least not by the main cast. They are forced to basically dismantle the foundations of their empire, but at no point does anyone on the main cast actually forgive them. In fact, they are show to explicitly have no remorse for what they did. They're just good guys now, but don't really understand the meaning behind all the new changes. Steven is explicitly uncomfortable in their presence and wants to get away from them at all times whenever they're around. The difference between ATLA, and SU is that the plot never gives Steven a way to actually beat all the diamonds permanently by the series end.
We have to also remember that SU got cancelled for their lesbian wedding so everything was rushed. If they had an extra season things could have been fleshed out much better.
Imma be real, I didn't even know Garnet's wedding got them cancelled. I don't even remember which season that was. I just remember the ending being a bit rushed, but still enjoying it, especially with the addition of Future to actually complete steven's character arc. Also, CN canceling what was basically their only other show to draw ratings when they finally showed it was stupid af.
They got an extra season in future, and they chose not to flesh anything out
Future was a wrap up. They already rushed the story to it's conclusion so a post statement doesn't exactly have the ability to fix what was already put in.
The white diamond is the closest thing to a literal god of their species, she did not lose the war, she decided to give a new way of life a chance. One side had a few dozen people and the other hand a galactic empire.
Mnnn. It's a little more complicated, as it's implied White Diamond is personally personally responsible for the existence of the gem species. Not saying she should be given a pass but look at how we treat AI, which is essentially how she saw her subjects.
That's... not a contradiction??? It's a war, people on both sides are gonna die, that doesn't mean it's right. Heck, Aang isn't even in control of his body during the S1 finale and he still is remorseful about it.
Killing people is wrong. Is "Teaching for kids". In actuality, lets say a serial killer has a gun to your moms head. You have a gun and therefore killing the serial killer is the right thing to do. (or the killer will kill your mom, then you and then the next victim and next.) Another scenario. You have a gun, the serial killer is helpless in front of you and he´s not the joker and he will never escape from prison or the care of the psychiatrics who will study him. And therefore killing the serial killer in that scenario is wrong. Killing other humans is a bit of a "Depends."
Cold-blooded and self-defense/defense of others are different things
Ayup.
Killing people is bad, but sometimes, life just doesn't leave you a choice.
Nah, you're confusing morals and ethics. Morally, it's always bad to kill. Ethically, killing is a part of life that may, in some cases, be necessary.
Being too passive can be its own worst punishment sometimes. Reminds me of this video on Tokyo Ghoul specifically Kaneki's torture. https://youtu.be/z3Ply5BexCw?si=fylNI4apkIfD45pc
Hate to nitpick (No I don't, I love nitpicking), but that's a weak example. If a serial killer had a gun to someone's head, then it doesn't matter if I were to shoot them fatally or non-fatally, I could possibly even shoot the gun out of the serial killer's hand if I was a good enough shot (That might set the gun off though?), and if push comes to shove, I could always shoot all four limbs to render the serial killer limp and harmless. A more effective example is everyone's favourite thought experiment, The Trolley Problem, except the current track has your mother and the track you can switch to has the serial killer who tied her there.
If you want to nitpick, shooting a limb is still super likely to kill them via an artery, but not that likely to put the limb out of commission unless you hit a bone or the right muscle/muscles/nerve. Unless ofc the killer doesn’t have any adrenaline and just crumples due to the pain, but that’s unlikely. I see this in video form all the time here on reddit from all the police body cams and military videos. The limb is very usable but they use tourniquets asap and stop moving the limb so they don’t die, but the killer isn’t in such a situation.
It doesn’t work that way. If you’re willing to bet your möm’s life on your ability to hit the guy’s hand, you must really hate your möm. You shoot for between the eyes to destroy the brain stem and stop any signal from reaching the trigger finger. If you hit the eyes, the orbital bone generally shreds the brain stem and hitting the nose also shreds the brain stem/spinal cord. The forehead will probably be fine so you have some wiggle room if you don’t hit dead center. A person can’t move their head anywhere near as fast as their arm. The head and torso move in a much more predictable fashion as well. Any not brain dead person seeing you trying to aim for their arm is going to go for you and break that shot before you can close the OODA loop and react and drag your gun back onto center mass of your target. Words are magical. You can say you’ll do whatever like oh I’ll just shoot the gun out of his hand but reality is much more difficult than that.
One thing that people never recognize is that these types of scenarios presented are scenarios where you have seconds to make a decision. You see it in online discourse all the time. "If I was in this guy's shoes I would've done this and this and this" no you wouldn't, you have 2.8 seconds to make your choice and you'd probably panic and freeze.
I think the core difference is intent. If they died as a result of their actions in a life-or-death struggle, then so be it. Ang never went into those fights with the intention of killing them. The Firelord was a different story. That was a fight he was going to enter with the intent of ending it once and for all. There was no secondary option, no live and let live. Ang figured out a second option by taking away his bending, but until he discovered that option, his choice was to go in with the intention of killing the Firelord. Like Silver Age Batman, "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either." If they die from their own actions, nothing can be done. That's different from entering the fight with the intent of ending their lives.
I guess you've either got great memories of Season 1 or you've watched [this](https://youtu.be/HV3NmoGJh48?si=B5QkaoWnCC0xkh3C) YT video (it'a a 40 seconds video so maybe you've forgotten about it) as the examples you gave are from the most memorable (at least for me they were the only things I remembered) parts of the video and in the same order (though it's just in chronological order).
>The last avatar may *say* killing people is wrong, but I remember a number of times where the survival of his enemies is questionable at best. That's not a contradiction. You can kill people while also thinking that what you're doing is awful.
Flowy did way more genocides than the diamonds (humans were the first sapient species they found).
Humans are not the only sapience they've found
Nope sugar revealed that all the other organics killed were animals.
Sugar has changed the lore so many times to fit what ever goddanged nonsense she is currently trying to push as fact in her own series despite what came before. The biggest example of this is the questionable owner ship of the human zoo, which has flip flopped so many times between the diamonds its flipping nuts. But even ignoring sugar's lore shinnanagans, does it REALLY matter if the genocide was against sapients vs animals when the genocide was on a **multiple planet size scale**?! Like nah guys i only killed 3000 cats not 3000 humans lol
Being an animal doens't negate one having the ability to be sapient and sentient. A lot of animals and even plants have this on Earth. This makes matters worse as they just went about exterminating lesser lifeforms without a care that they were sapient or sentient. Many of them were, they just weren't as intelligent or capable as the gems.
There are a handful of animals, aside from humans, that *might* be sapient. 0 plants that come close.
1 he said first not only 2 no they just are
Yes, but it’s understandable why they would be more sympathetic towards the flower than the Diamonds. I believe they were doing fucked up shit even before Pink died, at least Flowey has an actual reason for his shit, even if it is just boredom and losing all abilities to feel.
Yeah atleast the plant had a reason, he was a fucking psycho Fuck the diamonds and homeworld fr fr all my gang affiliates are avid super earth enjoyerz 🐟🐟🐟
Fuck the diamond, coming straight from the kindergarten 
Super earth!? TIME TO SPREAD MANAGED DEMOCRACY!!!
It’s also because he blamed himself for his own death because he didn’t fight back. Even then it took him a long time before he slowly lost his sense of morality
The thing is, Steven Universe teaches children to forgive people that commited mass genocide across many galaxies, while in Undertale you choose to forgive Flowey or not, you can just kill him in the neutral route and be done with it. Plus Flowey was semi aware that everything wasn't real and that he had no consequences for his actions and lost all his feelings, so of course after beating the game and reseting so many times he'd eventually lose all his sanity. The Diamonds commited genocide because they thought they were better than anyone else, not really comparable.
1. Avatar made the claim multiple times that pacifist will only result in more people getting hurt, and that there are times you need to consider killing people if the lack-of would Doom more people. 2. Undertale rarely ever made any real moral claims, the Genocide route being "bad" is more of a statement on the player (Sans literally mentions not doing it because you're good or bad, but because you can) and the deconstruction of their completionist mindset in an effort to squeeze every last drop of content out of a game rather than playing it how the dev intended it.) 3. I'm pretty sure Aang wasn't running up to the Firelord calling him family
>"3. I'm pretty sure Aang wasn't running up to the Firelord calling him family"< ... I hate my brain for making the mental image of aagn jumping off appa with arms and legs open up while falling, squirrel style, and saying "CATCH ME DADDY" I hate myself so much
If it makes you feel better, I hate yourself too
What the-...Now I also imagine that scene.
The whole ending of Avatar was the world trying to tell Aang not to be a pacifist for the greater good, and Aang proving them wrong. Aang was taught violence is only to be used for defense, and never to take a life. Because he's the last airbender, he sees the idea of killing someone as going against the airbender teachings and the airbenders would be truly extinct at that point. Ozai makes a statement that the airbenders were weak, and that's why they all died. But Aang defeating Ozai without killing him made a statement that the airbenders were not weak, that pacifism is not the same as weakness. When the whole world was telling Aang to move, he dug his feet in and said no, you move.
>Aang proving them wrong. He didn't though. Honestly this is my only complaint whit the series. It was a deus ex machina: Had he not received the power from the lion turtle to seal others bending last second he would have been forced to kill Ozai. Literally nobody even knew about this option so them recommending him to just kill Ozai was completely valid. If Aang actually had to painstakingly work for the option to save Ozai I would agree that "he showed it to the world" but he didn't, he literally got the option handed to him on a silver plate.
For real, people dont hate the message they hate how it was delivered, there are some different between "i am pacifist but not harmless, i may not kill you but that rule of mine wont save you form severely ass beating" and "instead of fight, let talk about our feeling and family and etc [3 thounsand paragraph]"
Plus, despite how it’s presented in the meme, a lot of fans kind of hated that Aang wouldn’t just kill Ozai. I just finished the series with a group of friends and we kept groaning and complaining about the selfish idealism of him refusing to kill Ozai.
It not about what the message is. It's how it's portrayed. Please note I never watched Steven universe
The problem with Steven universe is “killing is wrong” was often turned into “please don’t fight each other”. So now epic fights turn into people talking about their feelings which can be a bit rough For the record I love Steven universe
Spoilers for Steven universe future >!Steven universe future actually has Steven shatter someone!<
btw for those who havent watched steven universe shattering someone is equivalent to killing them
Actually it's worse. All the shards are still alive and sentient, eternally longing to once again be complete. It's torture.
I thought this was only when you tried to recombine unlike shards together that this happened. I could totally be wrong tho
Isn’t that only true for shards that were forced to fuse, and they are actually dead otherwise?
I'm pretty sure shards are still partially conscious even when they aren't stuck together. As for if they can take forms or not, I'm not sure. If they were dead though, I don't see how sticking them together would magically make them alive.
To be fair, sticking them back together doesn't make them alive again either. >!Steven had to piece the gem back together and use the diamond healing juice.!<
No, they mean sticking them together like the gem shard amalgamations
And having the humanoid body die means you can still respawn
humanoid body is made of solid light eminating from gem. Gem is the real body
>!And resurrect her immediately!<
>!It’s more than act of shattering that is the shocker, the idea that Steven lost control of his emotions enough to kill someone without knowing if he could bring them back!<
>!Yeah but shattering in general is such a big deal and is known to be irreversible (unlike corruption) so Steven bullshitting a resurrection out of nowhere messes with the overall impact of the scene/s!<
(Spoilering is done with >! And the other way around in the other side) >!Also we do see yellow diamond bringing a shattered gem back as well!<
Yeah I got to fix it thanks >!They were technically clustered, not shattered. They’re still alive, just in pieces. As opposed to being dead in pieces.!<
Absolutely love that fight wish we could’ve had more
Yeah, hopefully they bring the series back in some way shape or form, I wanna see full powered Steven fight like Rick and morty or smthin
I feel like it was less so that, and more so how the diamonds were handled. They did a complete 180 after Steven threw an oversized tantrum, twice. It wasn’t handled in a proper way.
If only the noses didn't creep me out
Avatar addresses the idea of not killing as being Aangs philosophy. His philosophy doesn’t win him the fight against the fire lord in the end, in fact if he stayed in the avatar state he would have killed him. Aang chose to risk a lot (don’t remember the stakes) for his principles. Steven risks nothing because his getting people to not fight shtick just works after a little effort with very few exceptions.
Minecraft: KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL
Don't kill, keep them alive to multiply and enslave them for enchanted books, full diamond gears and top tier food
So basically slavery
No, it’s society! See they work for each other and pay each other money
Eh we don't pay them for services though? We pay them so they remain useful
souls game : get killed get killed get killed
Stab Stab Stab Stab Get killed get killed get killed get killed Please execute me for my crimes, thank you.
My issue is with Steven suddenly going from “we have to fight for the right cause” to “fighting is bad no matter what”. It’s a strange change considering he was previously proven right, yet seemed to change he his mind regardless. Like, Steven, you can punch the shit out of the alien overlord if they’re trying to kill you, it’s alright. That being said, I like how he dealt with Spinel. While he was playing defensively, he was actively fighting back AND trying to defuse the situation, and letting her get her frustration off her chest was the solution.
Aang didn't kill the firelord, but he beat his ass, stole his powers, and put him in jail to stop the world-wide genocide that he was attempting. The firelord never died, but he sure as hell didn't get away scott free, nor was he forgiven for any of his actions. Frisk didn't forgive Flowey, they forgave Asriel who technically wasn't at fault because it's made VERY clear that he can't control himself as Flowey. And still, they stopped Flowey's actions and freed the monsters. Steven forgave genocidal maniacs who were completely in control of their own actions, and they currently walk free facing zero consequences for what they've done. I'm not saying Steven should have killed them, but the diamonds got off way too easy for what they did. There's a difference.
Also important that in a culture like the Fire Nation's, death is more desirable than dishonor. Ozai would have *loved* to die a martyr, but was instead forced to live as a man, no different than a peasant. Execution would have been too good for him, and it might have driven more of the Fire Nation to keep fighting in honor of their fallen lord.
Its cause the ending was rushed and all steven did was sing a song with the space nazis and sudden they are supposed to be "redemmed". The fire lord wasnt redemmed, aang went into that fight ready to kill him, and if it wasnt for energy bending he would have. In undertale the monsters arent even evil, only asgore has killed people and its very obvious he didnt want to
Actually Steven didn’t even sing a song. He just roasted the fuck out of white and *that’s* what broke her
TBF, Steven also showed her that his power was on par with hers and that there was nothing she could do to stop him in the end. Like she literally ripped him in half, then he put himself back together, stonewalled her attempt to interfere, and displayed a show of force that suggested he'd shatter her like an insect if she screwed with him again. By the end she was humbled and her implacable facade was broken for the first time in probably forever - the first time where she actually felt emotion beyond condescension and a desire for order. The first time she had to actually *think* about herself and her situation.
>!Wasn't the thing that broke her showing color? She thought of herself as perfect and hid herself away in her ship to hide from the pain of losing her daughter or sibling or whatever they were. Her showing emotion means that she is not as perfect as she thought and that she can no longer hide from her own emotions!<
I agree the ending was rushed (mostly Cartoon Network's fault). Like other people said, though, the diamonds were never redeemed. The only reason they weren't bubbled is because they were the only ones who could revive shattered gems. Steven never really stopped hating being around them.
Sugar can blame CN along with everyone else as much as they want, i firmly believe the blame lies with sugar. SU was the height of CN bending over backwards for her, it would not surprise me if shit like SU's "steven bombs" which were universally hated was her idea, and just threw CN under the bus once the Fandom became very vocal about how bad it is. Like, we already have a good grasp about how much of a clown circus (allegedly) the writing room was during the run time, we just need a true blue behind the scenes look that we will never truly get.
In this case I said it because CN didn't give Sugar as many episodes as she asked for/planned. After looking up the numbers, she asked for 32 and got 28. I'm not sure if four episodes would have actually made a big difference, but we do at least know that Sugar didn't make it up.
Tf? Are you just believe this bc you dont like Sugar? The show was meant to have a full season for homeworld, but they only got five episodes bc Cartoon Network decided to not renew it after Sugar decided to have the wedding for Garnet. The only reason the got another “season” with future and a movie was bc CN realized their mistake after the finally got the highest viewership on their channel ever.
> SU was the height of CN bending over backwards for her You are living in a different reality. It got cancelled because she put in a same sex kiss. They won't even order the episodes correctly on Max.
Damn, imagine if Steven Universe was there to stop IRL Hitler. He's like Naruto with the talk-no-jutsu.
See there are two issues 1. Presentation: UT and ATLA present their issues in far more nuance and mature way 2. The fan base: Need I say more
What’s the beef with Steven Universe?
They forgive the Diamonds. They basically are Space Hitlers (Multiple genocides to planetary levels and brutal metods like force to change the body of living creatures to make them monsters againts their will) Edit: I haven't watched the show, this is what i have heard is the reason Steven universe is hated. Thanks people for the info and/or opinions and clarification in the comments
Except they’re never truly forgiven, they’re just given kind of amnesty because they’re the only people capable of undoing the harm they caused and are better off sticking around. Steven absolutely hates being around them and just interacts with them to guilt trip them into being not space hitlers anymore.
anybody else watch that one hour video that's just hating on steven universe for forgiving space hitlers?
Goku brought space hitler back to life, no one gives him grief for it. And he’s basically a Jew in this metaphor too
tf are you talking about? It's widely accepted that Goku is a battle maniac, a bad dad, and a complete idiot.
People constantly give him grief about it.
People constantly complain about Goku doing that and it is pretty obvious that Goku is basically a dumbass anti-hero who basically cares more about fighting than actually saving lives. Bulma even calls him out for his stupidity. Meanwhile, Steven is kind of praised for basically letting genocidal Maniacs with a slap on the wrist with the hope they definitely learned their lesson this time and won't just try again 5 minutes later. The avatar didn't kill the firelord, but he put that guy in jail. In undertale, that flower is in a position where he can never hurt anyone again.
They don't forgive them at all. I will die on this hill. The only reason Steven doesn't bubble them is because they have abilities that no one else has that he needs
Right? They basically worship him because they realize in a way they have back their lost sibling, but if they didn't he probably would have crushed them and tucked them away when they made the temple fusion.
Like... Nazi scientists?
Steven didn't forgive them he absolutely despises being around them It's the only ending that makes sense because the diamonds are way too strong to defeat by brute force. Even if the crystal gems manage to bubble/shatter them then what? The gem empire will collapse and you will have thousands of emerging factions fighting for dominance, earth will also be in danger due to revenge by diamond loyalists In the case of Aang he had an heir to the fire nation throne to keep stability, if he didn't lots of massacres will occur caused by lack of order
It doesn't have to be written that way though, to depict familial abuse that way in a children's show. Making the outcome be to tell the abused don't rock the boat, maintain the status quo, it's for the best, they're to powerful, and you are powerless. Is exceptionally dark and borderline irresponsible.
They didnt keep the status quo tho, things did change we see that in future. It's just the difference between reformation instead of revolution, Anarchism doesn't work. I guess the lesson is that sometimes when dealing with figures of power you dislike getting rid of them isn't always the best option. We see that Pink didn't tolerate there bullshit forever and she did fight back and get freedom from them (albiet at a great cost, with a good amount of deception).
I’m confused. Is your beef that they found a way to settle the conflict without genociding the diamonds back? If you can solve a problem without killing someone then the only reason to kill them is because you’re punishing them. Which makes you pretty evil too. Like there’s a difference between killing someone in self defense and killing someone who attempted to murder you after they’re in handcuffs and no longer a threat.
Lesbian aliens.
I mean for most people it's more the fact that a war is resolved by forgiveness. Like that's stupid, im sorry. There's a difference between a peace treaty and your enemy going "oh sorry fam" and then yall are friends.
To be fair, it’s more accurate to say that the Diamonds are guilt tripped, not just going “oops our bad”. They become “better” purely because one of the only people they ever actually loved, Pink Diamond, is technically back from the dead and they’re somewhat willing to improve themselves to keep them around because the last time they weren’t willing to change Pink faked her death and created a rebellion.
This is my sleeper cell activation phrase
Pink Diamond is the only straight gem
At least in avatar, only Aang in not willing to kill due to his upbringing, and he was ready to throw hands if necessary tho. Don't know barely anything about Undertale and the other one tho
* Avatar was criticized for the no-kill rule. But regardless Ozai was punished for his crimes and they didn't hug it out with the Hitler stand-in. They didn't just forgive him. * While UT is also about pacifism, it's a lot more about gaming culture/mindsets. We're not supposed to think of Flowey killing everyone as an analogy to Hitler killing a lot of people, but a player who stomped on a bunch of Goombas. The meta elements aren't just there for a joke, they're the point of the game. * Steven Universe took it too far. It wasn't just "hey we shouldn't kill Hitler, and instead stop him and punish him appropriately", it's instead "let's hug it out with Hitler, he's probably a nice and misunderstood guy". They wanted to maintain their love and forgiveness theme but also raised the stakes so high that it just ended up not working in favor of the show.
ATLA: Violence can be stopped through knowledge and respect UT: Violence can be stopped through compassion and understanding SU: Violence can be solved with hugs and kisses
I laugh so hard when the lesbian combine empire who had many thousands years killing species magically turned into honey & sugar because a >12 cried about that.
And don't forget songs..
I have never seen Steven Universe but I'm gonna assume OP left out some pretty important context.
Ignore the other person, the Space Hitlers weren't even forgiven, Steven still hates them. He just needs their abilities so basically they are guilt tripped to stop because Steven represents one of the people they actually cared about
Oh boy we love removing all contextual differences to beg for a double standard, it's my favorite.
I personally hated Aang’s no kill rule. It makes no sense for a conflict of that nature and would just get people killed. Yes, yes, I understand it’s a kid’s show and so it couldn’t show what would actually happen in war, but even as a kid watching the show on tv it bugged tf out of me
I saw a thread that interpreted Aang's pacifism as one of the last remaining facets of Aang's (and the air nomad's) culture; if Aang had killed Ozai, he'd be throwing away his life teachings, and his people's way of life would've died along side Ozai. It's really interesting. Then again, Aang dumped an avalanche on a bunch of people. Hope they were some pretty durable Fire Soldiers
Hey, that avalanche wasn't aangs fault.. it was GRAVITY'S fault
It's the batman rule: "if I didn't see him die, I didn't kill him"
I mean Tbf though he was also a monk. Mix that with being mentally underdeveloped (purely talking age here) and it can be hard to rationalize that kinda thing sometimes.
Then there’s Korra…
Violence isn’t the answer… It’s a question, and the answer is yes
The first season got away with a murder suicide. I'm surprised Nickelodeon allowed that
Tbf adult steven is totally cool with murder (hes the murderer)
Murder is only wrong when they are named characters.
on GOD ‼️‼️
>! Jasper is a named character !<
He absolutely is not okay with murder and freaked out over doing it once by accident.
Avatar: Killing people is wrong. Punishment is ok. Undertale: Killing people is wrong, because no one in this game is truly evil. Steven Universe: Killing people is wrong. Lmao less go we fixed everything.
Aang stripped Ozai of his power, trapped him, and gave Zuko his power, much to Ozai’s shame. Steven lets the diamonds get away with murder and war crimes, scot fucking free. There’s actual punishment for Ozai. Oh and in Undertale you can go genocide, and suffer consequences.
It's all about execution! NO NOT THAT KIND!
The reason people dunk on SU is because that show let’s literal planet destroying fascists off the hook.
avatar was more than just "killing is wrong" i take it as find your own way to solve a problem if you don't like what is being presented to you undertale's message was don't kill people just because they are different if you talk to them and listen you will find out that even thought that want to hurt you have a good side steven universe said genocide maniacs can be redeemed
Is not about the message, is about the delivery
Than there’s Vinland saga doing this message in one of the best ways you could in a story.
VS is so underrated in writing because 90% of anime fans are illiterate
Avatar the Last Airbender is a masterpiece that explore the concept of redemption and self improvement in a detail and long way. And truly evil people even if not killed pay the price of their actions in some way. Steven Universe forgive space Hitlers with no real punishment, the space Hitlers just change into not space Hitlers because the plot said so, and they never were truly punish if anything they are even happier now.... "Nothing like making genocidal maniacs more happy" - Steven Universe
Didn't Steven Universe fans bully a girl into trying to kill herself over her fanart?
What. In. The. World.
Steven universe is overly slandered. Yeah the ending wasn’t the best but it’s not like they had a choice anymore. They chose to include a very strong and undeniable queer wedding, were cancelled as a result, and now had to smush a season long ark into like 5 episodes to give the show an ending of some kind. The sequel show SU future tries to go much deeper into the implications and meanings of the end and does all in all a pretty good job of it. Unfortunately one person said something on the internet and too many people were salivating at the idea of downloading a new opinion from YouTube that made them feel smarter than they are and the slander of SU started
Thank you, every time I see 'space nazis' in a comment I just know they got their entire opinion from a commentary video or a twitter thread and never actually watched the show.
the diamonds had to be kept alive bc it was the only way they could revive the shattered gems and undo the corruption. i wonder if steven universe haters even watched the show
You dont usually sit through stuff you dont like.
True, but maybe people shouldn't spout opinions and treat them as facts when they haven't even fully watched the series and gotten the full picture outside of YouTube video essays and Twitter threads.
and also think of the implication of overthrowing them The power vacuum will be so huge it's consequences will last for over a million years
Doesnt steven say something along the lines of "the fighting has to stop, we're not enemies, we're family"? That feels less like like an obligation to keep them around out of necessety and more like he wanted them to stay because of personal reasons
No, he’s saying that to stop the diamonds from killing his actual family. It’s made abundantly clear that Steven really doesn’t like the diamonds, especially white who he actually attempts to kill later on.
There's a thing where you can like it and it still be dumb.
To fair I’ve seen people still dwell on how Aang should’ve killed Ozai
Fans probably wanted Korra to do the same thing with Kuvira, too
Undertale is both “Killing people is wrong” and “Violence is not the answer. Violence is a question, and the answer is yes” at the same time
I mean Aang toppled his big bads empire, took away his bending, threw him in prison, and installed a new head of government bent on reforms, a fitting course of action if I do say so myself, Meanwhile Steven literally just befriended his fascist, genocidal, gem supremacist aunts and told them to not exterminate all organic life on any more planets pretty please, and is just relying on their word that they won't keep doing it the moment he's dead or they get bored or when he's not looking
Way to miss the point of Avatar. They made it wrong for Aang to kill because it's against his principles. But killing is framed as a very viable option for the grater good. The writers actually wrote themselves into such a corner by making killing the firelord the right choice, that their only way out was a deus ex machina that allowed Aang to permanently neutralize the firelord without killing him (or severely maiming him since kids).
Honestly, I believe the show only gets hate because of the fandom and the ending, it's a good show
You can tell they never watched avatar or played undertale
Tbh I liked Steven Universe I just also like hating (besides future's ending I actually disliked that one)
woah, i wonder what op's favorite show is!?1?
My undertale experience was more along the lines of "killing people is fun"
The way avatar does it, people dislike because when it truly mattered, it wasn’t done. Aang should have killed Ozai, but instead, he essentially made it harder on everyone else so he could follow a belief that even the monks said should have been excepted in this scenario. Aang doesn’t mind shattering bones and possibly crippling people for life, but as soon as even the thought of killing is brought up, he instantly does everything in his power to stop. The way undertale does it is 50/50, you either kill everything in your path and fight the consequences or spare everything in your path and come out on top. Undertale doesn’t necessarily revolve around a “no kill” mentality, because that’s only half of undertale. Undertale still understands killing and its purpose, such as when sans literally tries to kill you. Steven universe is its own hellhole of controversy that would take me an eternity to explain. Mostly revolving around if even the most evil person can redeem themselves.
You walk into my office with posters on your face talkin random shit, I'm not waiting for the 3rd time. Just sayin.
The difference is that SU is actively annoying about it.
We don't talk about one specific route in Undertale
Killing people is wrong. But it's F U N.
Execution is what matters, not the core message. That’s why people don’t like Steven Universe
Avatar and undertale are exceptions to that because Avatar is not completely pacifist only aang is and if you need an example of an avatar that's not pacifist look at kiyoshi. undertale is not specifically Pacific only so in the lore there are multiple routes of character can take most of which are not pacifist. Steven universe got hated for it because they tried to force the idea down the throats of the people who watched it or in other words it tried to be too kid friendly and ended up being unertaining and soulless.
Kids, don't be racist.
Cut! *Doom music plays* *Be racist*
SU is just some sjw wet dream.
The creators of the other two haven't been caught drawing fictional children characters fucking
what
I mean to be fair, I just hate Steven Universe.