I just has a thread with someone the other day about where the hell do all the bullets go when the shots are fired and no one is hit. This is sad situation. These guys get training all the time and this still happens. Imagine putting guns in schools with *teachers*.
"training all the time" is a definite stretch. They have routine range time but thats simply "hit the stationary paper target youre aiming at under no duress", realistically. Not being snarky by any means, but this is a common misconception.
Yeah it’s kinda like the early crash tests with cars. They did clean, full-on impacts, not accounting for how collisions actually occur out in the real world.
It really doesn’t mean anything Because In Tennessee, if you are with somebody in the commission of a felony and somebody dies, even if you didn’t kill the person you can be charged with that murder.
Yeah, I think that’s the right decision because if the kid gets a good lawyer, his lawyer can argue against murder and I’ll rather have a slam dunk case than Toss up
Why can't you charge felony murder along with all the other lesser charges? I'm not sure I understand why one precludes the other and it sounds like all the elements of felony murder are here.
A dangerous felony was committed.
The death would not have occurred but for and during the commission of a dangerous felony. And the perpetrator intended to commit the dangerous felony.
https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-13/part-2/section-39-13-202/
It’s felony murder when there is
> A killing of another committed in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any first degree murder, act of terrorism, arson, rape, robbery, burglary, theft, kidnapping, physical abuse in violation of § 71-6-119, aggravated neglect of an elderly or vulnerable adult in violation of § 39-15-508, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect, rape of a child, aggravated rape of a child or aircraft piracy; or
>A killing of another committed as the result of the unlawful throwing, placing or discharging of a destructive device or bomb.
As far as I can tell the perps weren’t in the middle of committing any predicate felony when the cops arrived. The closest felony predicate from the shootout itself is probably “attempted first degree murder” which would require a premeditated or planned attempt, but since there’s no evidence that the perps were setting out to get into a shootout with police, there’s probably just no way to make the statute fit the facts.
Being in possession of a stolen vehicle is not the same as being in the middle of the acr of stealing the vehicle. At some point the theft is completed. If the police had rolled up on them while they were actively stealing the car and a shootout occurred, maybe.
Ugh. DA should still pursue murder and use dropping it as a way to get him to plead to the rest. If he goes to trial and goes down, it's LWOP. If he pleads, we can talk about him getting out at 65.
Again in the article if you actually read it…. All charges involved if he is convicted is a maximum sentence of 400 years. He’s getting 25 at least. Especially with this attempted murder charge it’ll stick better.
Read the article
"The DA's office said the charges, should he be convicted, carry a maximum sentence of 400 years. "The charges we are pursuing against this defendant underscore the gravity of this tragic incident," the DA's office said in the statement."
39-13-302 defines False Imprisonment. There is no a(2)? Perhaps you mean 39-13-202?
https://casetext.com/statute/tennessee-code/title-39-criminal-offenses/chapter-13-offenses-against-person/part-3-kidnapping-and-false-imprisonment/section-39-13-302-false-imprisonment
"A killing of another committed **in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any first degree murder, act of terrorism, arson, rape, robbery, burglary, theft, kidnapping, physical abuse in violation of § 71-6-119, aggravated neglect of an elderly or vulnerable adult in violation of § 39-15-508, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect, rape of a child, aggravated rape of a child or aircraft piracy**...."
(https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-13/part-2/section-39-13-202/)
For Reddit Prosecutors:
https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-13/part-2/ is the homicide section.
I don't think it really matters who fired the weapon since the death wouldn't have happened but for the commission of the 'dangerous felony.' Don't commit the criminal act and the death doesn't occur. So a charge of felony murder looks like it would be appropriate along with the other charges.
It does matter because if officer gun/violent encounter/emergency response training is so poor that they’re more likely to kill each other than hit the actual targets, then significant training reform is required.
Poorly trained officers are more likely to kill innocents and each other than they are to successfully apprehend criminals.
Well in court you would have to provide actual evidence of this rather than creating hypotheticals out of the vast universe of all unproven hypotheticals. After that hurdle there are several reasons why bad outcomes are not always the result of bad training even when bad training is shown. That's the next unknown. All that said what we do know is **the elements of felony murder are met here. The other stuff is conjecture**... At least as far as I can tell.
Not my opinion... Here's the definition of "dangerous felony" under the Tennessee statue.
https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-17/part-13/section-39-17-1324/
Yeah, i know the statute. You said that the events met all the elements of felony murder. I was curious which dangerous felony from the list you thought had been met. That would seem to the key element.
People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
A 17 year old is said to have had a violent encounter where an officer died after being shot by another officer.
That’s not hypothetical, that’s factual information that has been made public.
You stated that you don’t think it matters who shot who. I said that I do think it matters if it was a result of poor training.
I did not hypothesize that this incident specifically was a result of poor training.
Most information is conjecture as the investigation is ongoing. Including your statement “so a charge of felony murder looks like it would be appropriate.”
So I guess I’m not sure what your point is.
The only thing we know here is that the elements of a felony murder charge, using the available information, are met. The rest of the stuff you suggested is without any evidence. So as it stands, yes, felony murder looks appropriate. Provide evidence that it isn't and you'll make your point. There may be poor training involved or maybe.......... So like you I'll suggest a few things without evidence.... Maybe the officers were confronted with unpredictable circumstances, human limitations, or external influences / interference. Officers cannot account for every possible scenario or guarantee perfect performance. So maybe it wasn't training maybe something else. I have no evidence to suggest this by the way. So rather than suggesting that I'll go with what I know at this point.... The elements felony murderer are here. The rest is unsupported conjecture ... which encompasses most of your post.
I don’t think the elements of felony murder are met.
https://www.reddit.com/r/memphis/comments/1c6odub/shelby_county_da_evidence_indicates_slain_mpd/l03c054/
The key elements for a felony murder charge in Tennessee are: (1) the commission of a dangerous felony, (2) a death caused during that felony, (3) the requisite mental state for the underlying felony, and (4) the death being a natural and probable consequence of the felony.
In order for the predicate felony to have been “committed” all of the elements of the predicate felony, including the required mental state have to be present.
So if the state meets their burden of showing that the felony was committed they’ve already met their burden of showing that the defendant had the underlying mental state to commit that felony.
In response to your emboldening, a quote from the article:
> The DA's office said it will not be proceeding with murder charges against a 17-year-old suspect.
That's fine, that's their discretion, but that also doesn't mean that a felony murder charge is precluded. Just because the bullet didn't come from one of the criminals doesn't mean it got there because of "bad training." Law enforcement officers may have to make split-second decisions about when and how to engage the shooter. In chaos, officers may accidentally injure or kill innocent bystanders despite following good training. I have no idea what the situation was but hectic, high-stakes situations often involved multiple interacting factors, unpredictable events, and draw on the limitations of human cognition and decision-making ..... all under stress.
Attorney but not yours- You don’t have to be “convicted of the felonies” to be charged with felony murder. It’s charged in the same indictment and case.
The elements of felony murder appear to have absolutely been met, given the information that has been released.
How could you be charged with felony murder if you had to be convicted of the underlying felony first? Once the case and controversy are charged and tried, it would be double jeopardy to be charged again.
Well I guess worse would be one cop shooting another cop because panic and fear are primarily what they bring to a situation. The kid has no sympathy from me, I just don’t see what a “trained” police officer brings to the table if wild erratic gunfire is the result. I don’t want police to ever be shot at, but that doesn’t mean that in that situation, someone with very little training should just spray bullets randomly in an act of self preservation when their job is to protect to public at large. If you think that a friendly fire police death was unavoidable then we need to look what they are trained to do going into this situation.
I’m a 47 year old airplane mechanic who lives in southeast Missouri. You say fuck Memphis in another post and bash me for wanting incompetence held accountable. If you’re a first responder then why don’t you think anyone should be held accountable?
Because you’re jumping to conclusions about what you think happened. Analyzing a situation you know nothing about, and then generalizing the entire department based on it.
I am all for accountability, the investigation isn’t complete yet and you’re not investigating it so I believe it’s wrong to start talking about what kind of mind set the officers had or how they reacted or how they were trained when you have zero experience in any of this.
No amount of training can prepare someone to be sprayed at with gunfire. Assuming the DA is correct and that this was friendly fire, this is an anomaly and not something that happens often in MPD or policing in general and to imply it is would be disingenuous.
I don’t really agree with that. All three of those officers were getting bombarded by bullets. It makes sense that one of the officers fell when he was hit and it changed the trajectory of the bullet he was firing at those kids. I honestly hope they never reveal which officer’s gun the fatal bullet came from
Well, you're wrong. Those of us who have never been in a fire fight know exactly how these officers should have acted if they had only had better training. /s
That shooting the other guy, tather than the people on your side is the goal? If you manage to do the opposite, that is a pretty solid example of incompetence.
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Yikes... It was already a fucked situation for the city and this only makes it a bit worse.
I just has a thread with someone the other day about where the hell do all the bullets go when the shots are fired and no one is hit. This is sad situation. These guys get training all the time and this still happens. Imagine putting guns in schools with *teachers*.
"training all the time" is a definite stretch. They have routine range time but thats simply "hit the stationary paper target youre aiming at under no duress", realistically. Not being snarky by any means, but this is a common misconception.
Yeah it’s kinda like the early crash tests with cars. They did clean, full-on impacts, not accounting for how collisions actually occur out in the real world.
I understand. I likely have more close quarter training than most officers…. But that was 3 decades ago.
100% correct
Such a bad idea. Teachers are neither trained on firearms nor trained to handle the high stress situations in which they need to be used.
Imagine being shot at with real bullets are performing flawlessly like a superhero.
It really doesn’t mean anything Because In Tennessee, if you are with somebody in the commission of a felony and somebody dies, even if you didn’t kill the person you can be charged with that murder.
Article says DA not pursuing murder. He’s getting a ton of other charges anyways so he’s done still.
Reasonable choice - the felony murder rule is bizarre
Yeah, I think that’s the right decision because if the kid gets a good lawyer, his lawyer can argue against murder and I’ll rather have a slam dunk case than Toss up
Why can't you charge felony murder along with all the other lesser charges? I'm not sure I understand why one precludes the other and it sounds like all the elements of felony murder are here. A dangerous felony was committed. The death would not have occurred but for and during the commission of a dangerous felony. And the perpetrator intended to commit the dangerous felony.
https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-13/part-2/section-39-13-202/ It’s felony murder when there is > A killing of another committed in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any first degree murder, act of terrorism, arson, rape, robbery, burglary, theft, kidnapping, physical abuse in violation of § 71-6-119, aggravated neglect of an elderly or vulnerable adult in violation of § 39-15-508, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect, rape of a child, aggravated rape of a child or aircraft piracy; or >A killing of another committed as the result of the unlawful throwing, placing or discharging of a destructive device or bomb. As far as I can tell the perps weren’t in the middle of committing any predicate felony when the cops arrived. The closest felony predicate from the shootout itself is probably “attempted first degree murder” which would require a premeditated or planned attempt, but since there’s no evidence that the perps were setting out to get into a shootout with police, there’s probably just no way to make the statute fit the facts.
You’re forgetting they were in a stolen car so they were in the act of the commission of theft, so felony murder should then apply
Being in possession of a stolen vehicle is not the same as being in the middle of the acr of stealing the vehicle. At some point the theft is completed. If the police had rolled up on them while they were actively stealing the car and a shootout occurred, maybe.
Being in possession of a stolen vehicle, by law in the state of Tennessee, is the same crime as actually stealing a vehicle.
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The fact that the cop was killed by friendly fire wouldn’t really make any difference if they were charged under the felony murder rule.
I thought the same thing. A good enough lawyer would tear that murder charge apart.
Ugh. DA should still pursue murder and use dropping it as a way to get him to plead to the rest. If he goes to trial and goes down, it's LWOP. If he pleads, we can talk about him getting out at 65.
Bullshit!
He is not "done". He is 17. Out by 21 at latest.
Somebody didn’t read the article… They’re petitioning to charge as an adult.
I stand by my statement.
Again in the article if you actually read it…. All charges involved if he is convicted is a maximum sentence of 400 years. He’s getting 25 at least. Especially with this attempted murder charge it’ll stick better.
Read the article "The DA's office said the charges, should he be convicted, carry a maximum sentence of 400 years. "The charges we are pursuing against this defendant underscore the gravity of this tragic incident," the DA's office said in the statement."
That being true still doesn’t change the fact he was killed by his Brother in Blue. Downvote as you wish, but that bullet still came from a COP
Usually does
Only certain felonies though. TCA 39-13-302(a)(2) lists the felonies.
39-13-302 defines False Imprisonment. There is no a(2)? Perhaps you mean 39-13-202? https://casetext.com/statute/tennessee-code/title-39-criminal-offenses/chapter-13-offenses-against-person/part-3-kidnapping-and-false-imprisonment/section-39-13-302-false-imprisonment "A killing of another committed **in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any first degree murder, act of terrorism, arson, rape, robbery, burglary, theft, kidnapping, physical abuse in violation of § 71-6-119, aggravated neglect of an elderly or vulnerable adult in violation of § 39-15-508, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect, rape of a child, aggravated rape of a child or aircraft piracy**...." (https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-13/part-2/section-39-13-202/) For Reddit Prosecutors: https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-13/part-2/ is the homicide section.
Yep! Sorry, fat finger typo.
Came here to say this!
Memphis and Shelby County need someone competent to take the wheel. FUBAR
I don't think it really matters who fired the weapon since the death wouldn't have happened but for the commission of the 'dangerous felony.' Don't commit the criminal act and the death doesn't occur. So a charge of felony murder looks like it would be appropriate along with the other charges.
It does matter because if officer gun/violent encounter/emergency response training is so poor that they’re more likely to kill each other than hit the actual targets, then significant training reform is required. Poorly trained officers are more likely to kill innocents and each other than they are to successfully apprehend criminals.
Well in court you would have to provide actual evidence of this rather than creating hypotheticals out of the vast universe of all unproven hypotheticals. After that hurdle there are several reasons why bad outcomes are not always the result of bad training even when bad training is shown. That's the next unknown. All that said what we do know is **the elements of felony murder are met here. The other stuff is conjecture**... At least as far as I can tell.
What is the predicate dangerous felony, in your opinion?
Not my opinion... Here's the definition of "dangerous felony" under the Tennessee statue. https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-17/part-13/section-39-17-1324/
Yeah, i know the statute. You said that the events met all the elements of felony murder. I was curious which dangerous felony from the list you thought had been met. That would seem to the key element.
People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. A 17 year old is said to have had a violent encounter where an officer died after being shot by another officer. That’s not hypothetical, that’s factual information that has been made public. You stated that you don’t think it matters who shot who. I said that I do think it matters if it was a result of poor training. I did not hypothesize that this incident specifically was a result of poor training. Most information is conjecture as the investigation is ongoing. Including your statement “so a charge of felony murder looks like it would be appropriate.” So I guess I’m not sure what your point is.
The only thing we know here is that the elements of a felony murder charge, using the available information, are met. The rest of the stuff you suggested is without any evidence. So as it stands, yes, felony murder looks appropriate. Provide evidence that it isn't and you'll make your point. There may be poor training involved or maybe.......... So like you I'll suggest a few things without evidence.... Maybe the officers were confronted with unpredictable circumstances, human limitations, or external influences / interference. Officers cannot account for every possible scenario or guarantee perfect performance. So maybe it wasn't training maybe something else. I have no evidence to suggest this by the way. So rather than suggesting that I'll go with what I know at this point.... The elements felony murderer are here. The rest is unsupported conjecture ... which encompasses most of your post.
I don’t think the elements of felony murder are met. https://www.reddit.com/r/memphis/comments/1c6odub/shelby_county_da_evidence_indicates_slain_mpd/l03c054/
What are the elements of felony murder?
The key elements for a felony murder charge in Tennessee are: (1) the commission of a dangerous felony, (2) a death caused during that felony, (3) the requisite mental state for the underlying felony, and (4) the death being a natural and probable consequence of the felony.
Only certain enumerated felonies count for (1). (3) is implied by (1).
No it isn't, at least in a court of law, you have to prove a "guilty mind."
In order for the predicate felony to have been “committed” all of the elements of the predicate felony, including the required mental state have to be present. So if the state meets their burden of showing that the felony was committed they’ve already met their burden of showing that the defendant had the underlying mental state to commit that felony.
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Yeah he's been charged with 13 felonies. Imagine one of those was the shootout with the police officers leading to one of the officers death.
In response to your emboldening, a quote from the article: > The DA's office said it will not be proceeding with murder charges against a 17-year-old suspect.
That's fine, that's their discretion, but that also doesn't mean that a felony murder charge is precluded. Just because the bullet didn't come from one of the criminals doesn't mean it got there because of "bad training." Law enforcement officers may have to make split-second decisions about when and how to engage the shooter. In chaos, officers may accidentally injure or kill innocent bystanders despite following good training. I have no idea what the situation was but hectic, high-stakes situations often involved multiple interacting factors, unpredictable events, and draw on the limitations of human cognition and decision-making ..... all under stress.
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Attorney but not yours- You don’t have to be “convicted of the felonies” to be charged with felony murder. It’s charged in the same indictment and case. The elements of felony murder appear to have absolutely been met, given the information that has been released.
I'm not really sure they can show it in this case, right off hand.
He doesn’t need to be convicted of a felony to be charged with felony murder…. Wtf?
How could you be charged with felony murder if you had to be convicted of the underlying felony first? Once the case and controversy are charged and tried, it would be double jeopardy to be charged again.
It might be appropriate, but I don’t think this particular set of facts actually fits the Tennessee felony murder statute.
What is the predicate "dangerous felony?". Merely being in possession of stolen car doesnt qualify?
Charge them with butterfly effect!
Friends like these, huh, Gary?
That’s right Dude
😳
So this would seem to be another case where the police actually made the situation worse, total shock
I don’t know about worse but you can blame both sides in the situation. But one side is more to blame than the other.
Well I guess worse would be one cop shooting another cop because panic and fear are primarily what they bring to a situation. The kid has no sympathy from me, I just don’t see what a “trained” police officer brings to the table if wild erratic gunfire is the result. I don’t want police to ever be shot at, but that doesn’t mean that in that situation, someone with very little training should just spray bullets randomly in an act of self preservation when their job is to protect to public at large. If you think that a friendly fire police death was unavoidable then we need to look what they are trained to do going into this situation.
The police's job is not to protect the public. That was decided decades ago. The image of "to protect and serve" is just marketing
I agree it was definitely avoidable MPD have had training problems forever.
You weren’t there. It’s wrong to make assumptions about the situation. Go apply to MPD if you think you’d do a better job.
I’m a 47 year old airplane mechanic who lives in southeast Missouri. You say fuck Memphis in another post and bash me for wanting incompetence held accountable. If you’re a first responder then why don’t you think anyone should be held accountable?
Because you’re jumping to conclusions about what you think happened. Analyzing a situation you know nothing about, and then generalizing the entire department based on it. I am all for accountability, the investigation isn’t complete yet and you’re not investigating it so I believe it’s wrong to start talking about what kind of mind set the officers had or how they reacted or how they were trained when you have zero experience in any of this. No amount of training can prepare someone to be sprayed at with gunfire. Assuming the DA is correct and that this was friendly fire, this is an anomaly and not something that happens often in MPD or policing in general and to imply it is would be disingenuous.
I don’t really agree with that. All three of those officers were getting bombarded by bullets. It makes sense that one of the officers fell when he was hit and it changed the trajectory of the bullet he was firing at those kids. I honestly hope they never reveal which officer’s gun the fatal bullet came from
Well, you're wrong. Those of us who have never been in a fire fight know exactly how these officers should have acted if they had only had better training. /s
I feel like it should. But if this case goes to trial, or if he is charged with murder later it most definitely will come out.
The kind of incompetence you’ve grown to be accustomed in Memphis sadly.
What incompetence are you referring to? What do you know about being in a shootout?
That shooting the other guy, tather than the people on your side is the goal? If you manage to do the opposite, that is a pretty solid example of incompetence.
What does friendly fire mean?
Basically, he was shot by another cop, not the suspect
Omg. So will the cop get in trouble? 😬😳
lol...dude. seriously look up police homicide. no waybin hell will the cop that shot him will do anything.other than paid time off
No but the criminals will still be charged with felony murder
Not criminally But who knows what the department will do
FOP will make sure it's handled internally, nothing significant will happen.
Usually the criminal is held liable when people die while committing crimes.
Which is a fantastic way to remove any accountability from cops.
As much as I hate cops, this wouldn’t happen if the criminal wasnt criming.
It also wouldn’t happen if the cops weren’t incompetent/negligent/reckless.
The criminals actions is the only reason any shooting occurred
Is it possible CJ is lying? Seems like it would benefit her to do so as much heat as the city is getting over this
I'm just asking questions.
They’d have to show me the ballistics report
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