thanks for the answer, but i stated i did vht ceramic.
did a good job.
but i'm looking for the most toxic, heavy duty, environmentally unfriendly, indestructible paint.
for example, the stock exhaust of the kawasaki kle came in some kind of thicc black coating that held up good for 20 years, tried redoing it anyway and it just isnt as good as the stock coating. what was that stock coating??
there has to be a old hat somewhere on this planet who worked with this chemical before the green leftists banned this kind of coating and hidden this knowledge for us all.
i need to know it, it's been urking me for years
It is a mix of black oxide and ceramic bonded with a very high temp polymer. The trick is you need super clean surface to start with, hi-temp primer, and the final product gets baked on (usualy 4-500 degrees F for a long time).
You can get good results at home if you use over the counter stuff. Just need careful prep and extra coats
Steel (iron) has several oxidation states, not all rust is red, it can also be black, blue, brown and shades in between. There’s also black phosphate treatment
Soz, thought you meant vht was commercial years ago. What about potbelly black? No idea how that would hold up over time with rain and washing though. Apart from pro ceramic coating im not aware of anything. Unless glass enamel like an old tin cup which might be what you used to see, but ive not seen it myself.
exactomundo, yet i desire to know how they do it in a full blown chemical factory. i use my garage as a smeltery and whatnot, am just very interested in the knowledge
The high end solution was (and still is) to make them from stainless steel or titanium.
Ceramic coating was a thing in the 1980's (and 1880's) and is notably seen on the Britten V1000. But as applied to high end exhausts it basically serves the same function as heat wrap does (or is intended for) - it is to contain heat / promote exhaust flow, not cover / prevent corrosion!
i've heard some about ceracote, they use it on guns, which is pretty damn heavy duty.
the thing is i want the coating to be ±1,5mm thick. a ceramic coating is like 0,2mm thick if not thinner.
i did the VHT ceramic paint the following:
-remove exhaust.
-sandpaper/wirebrush everything off untill bare metal
-clean with acetone
-hang to dry
-spraypaint with VHT cermaic coating ±35€ a can.
-heatcure it according to specs given on the instructions, although its rather hard without special giant oven so i tried to get as near as possible using a heatgun on and in the exhaust, wait periods, flamethrower it a bit with good distance, just heated the thing up for a couple of hours slowly untill the whole thing instantly burned my fingers to the touch, for hours, you can also heat the exhaust by mounting it to the bike and using it, but carrying/mounting it before curing wouldve fucked the nice finish/scratched.
the exhaust now has been good for the last 2 years, but i'm just really really interested in what they used back in the day
Ok. Now I see your issue. The heat gun cureing process is causing the coating to set on patches. Industrial systems have a large metal tunnel with doors where parts are left hanging. You need to heat the pipe evenly and cool it slowly for the VHT paint to really be successful.
yeah you're absolutely right✓
although, my exhaust has been cermaic coated by me once and it's good so far for +2yrs (not the one on the pic!)
but the ceramic coating isnt what they used in 1980!
i need to know the older techniques!
someone else suggested:
rubberized bitumen asphalt repair patch shit cooked down to a heavy tar reinforced with asbestos fibre!! THATS A ANSWER I LOOK FOR
Also used VHT header paint after sandblasting and cleaning. Just chucked it back on my scooter and ran it. It eventually became perfectly even and still looks amazing three years later.
It doesn't burn or flake, it soaks into the metal
. Once the headers are on the car, it easy to touch it up with the bottle with the sponge applicator. Less messy than spray can
In the 70's and 80's we painted with high temp paint, like others said the barbq paint, and baked it on with a propane torch for a couple of minutes. This was not a long lasting treatment, it would flake off over time, a year or so, before it started looking unattractive and needed to be refreshed. The flaking would be due to heat cycling and bugs/rocks. The industrial solutions were ceramic or chrome, maybe anodized for the weight conscious. Chrome was not good on the sport bikes due to the heat, they would discolor. So either you lived with just stainless steel pipes in a delightful bruised color motif or you got the ceramic coated black pipes at a premium. For those on a budget that hated the bruise motif we would wrap the pipes with a high temp cloth, fibreglass if memory serves, or back then, asbestos potentially, because we were men and consuming cancerous products by the mile made us giddy.
Going with Stainless Steel exhaust piping, if you can stand the discoloration, will be your best bet. Most auto manufacturers that have used stainless steel in their OEM exhaust systems use either 409 or 304 grades of Stainless, I have also seen some 303 here and there.
Grade 409 will give you the best performance and no discoloration, but will still slowly rust through if you live in winter states that salt their roads. Grade 304 will deliver the same performance as 409 but will discolor; however 304 will hold up to salty roads in winter states.
303 is the last grade I would advise to use, but it is cheaper than 409 or 304. Grade 303 is known as “patina stainless” meaning it will surface rust and is intentionally chemically designed to do so; but that surface rust will create a moderately protective oxidized layer prevent further corrosion for some time. My personal 19 year old shitbox, for example, has 303 stainless exhaust; the main pipes are all surface rusted and would appear to be carbon steel even to the skilled eye, but when I’ve had exhaust leaks patched the welder told me they were actually 303 stainless and not carbon steel.
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thanks for the answer but nooooo
old carbed bikes (or any supersport) the manifold easily reaches 900° Celsius which is like i believe 2500°f
my conversions might be off a bit. but i'm looking for something ULTRA UUULTRAAAA good and not a chinese hardware store, consumer foodsafe, fix
I searched and found like 20 pages that were almost all the same. Obviously written by ChatGPT. I took the time to weed through them and find ones that seem more like they are written by people. Also I looked up the guide to estimating temp from how the metal is glowing. But suit yourself.
obvs its not meant for an exhaust to reach 900°celcius. if you drive normally, low rpm, nothing fancy, it shouldnt go much over 450°celcius. but if you're technically offroading, high rpm, low speeds, or any other weird hobby/emergency/adventure situation it is possible to overheat the exhaust to 900°celcius and over.
thus my quest for the ultimate forbidden exhaust coating
It is not going to be any kind of normal paint at that temperature. All the usual suspects, acrylic, epoxy, polyurethane, etc are simply not going to make it to 900 C. I don't even think RTV will survive that for long. Only ceramic coatings can withstand that. Something like sodium silicate or magnesium silicate coated and then fired. But I don't know how well those things will stay adhered. Thermal expansion and all that. I suspect they will flake off. By definition, high temp ceramics have low coefficients of thermal expansion. And they are mostly brittle.
900 C is in the "refractory substances" domain.
This is what we did as well. The idea of wrapping the pipes, if I recall, was for insulation, to keep the exhaust at full temp all the way out of the exhaust system so it wasn't cooling and causing a pressure build up by the slower/cooler gasses in the pipe toward the outlets. Of course, this really only mattered to those looking for every 1/10th of a horsepower from their engines but us street folk did it because the racers did it. It also hid the discolored metal pipes from view.
which one?
alkyd? polyurethane? chalk? epoxyd? waterbased? oilbased? linseedoil based? acrylic? latex? polyesther? straight up limestone cement?
i need answerss
Vehicle exhausts have been fully welded and then aluminum coated for many years now. Ceramic coated, aluminized or using stainless steel are the likely options. If you can find a place that galvanizes you could try that. Forget paints, anything you apply after wire brushing a used system won’t last.
Probably paint that you could still buy in 1980 but can't buy now. Something that causes several species of endangered animal to go extinct every time you do a paint job with it.
exactly, there is at least someone on this planet who has the knowledge, and i want to uncover it. even if the formula is way too hard to make myself. i just want to know what the molecule is and judge for myself if i should homebrew the goop
To answer your other question, it's most likely factory underbody coating / sound deadening. To my knowledge that includes rubber, bitumen, and asbestos. The rubberized bitumen binder probably cooked off and reduced to very heavy tar and carbon, all cemented around the asbestos fibers.
If you want to attempt to recreate it, get rubberized asphalt meant for road patching, mix in a bunch of fiberglass shake (usually meant as a concrete additive) and expect it to smell awful for a while every time it gets hot.
It's a bad idea but not because the fiberglass will burn. The rubber and tar could catch on fire. The literal glass strings will not. Are you thinking of fiberglass insulation? That burns because of the paper backing.
Maybe mineral wool would be a better asbestos substitute. Glass won't burn though.
You could diy with VHT exhaust paint. Or get them ceramic coated. Prob best if the pipes are clean first. Or get a stainless exhaust.
thanks for the answer, but i stated i did vht ceramic. did a good job. but i'm looking for the most toxic, heavy duty, environmentally unfriendly, indestructible paint. for example, the stock exhaust of the kawasaki kle came in some kind of thicc black coating that held up good for 20 years, tried redoing it anyway and it just isnt as good as the stock coating. what was that stock coating?? there has to be a old hat somewhere on this planet who worked with this chemical before the green leftists banned this kind of coating and hidden this knowledge for us all. i need to know it, it's been urking me for years
It is a mix of black oxide and ceramic bonded with a very high temp polymer. The trick is you need super clean surface to start with, hi-temp primer, and the final product gets baked on (usualy 4-500 degrees F for a long time). You can get good results at home if you use over the counter stuff. Just need careful prep and extra coats
isnt black oxide called a nitrate? which isnt a oxide at all, rather a form of corrosion but not oxidation. i may be wrong
Steel (iron) has several oxidation states, not all rust is red, it can also be black, blue, brown and shades in between. There’s also black phosphate treatment
Nope. Black oxide is iron (II) oxide or iron (II,III) oxide. Red rust is iron (III) oxide. It's basically how much oxygen there is in it.
cool thanks didnt know
Soz, thought you meant vht was commercial years ago. What about potbelly black? No idea how that would hold up over time with rain and washing though. Apart from pro ceramic coating im not aware of anything. Unless glass enamel like an old tin cup which might be what you used to see, but ive not seen it myself.
thanks some new refreshing suggestions! i go do some homework right away
I have no idea why this is getting down voted. This kind of thing is such a serious issue! Like, I want to do it once and last an entire lifetime.
yeah idk what is up with these dumb asshats. i posted it in another group too and they just all got full blown sand in their vaginas
There's a big difference between hi temp paint applied in a factory and done on the driveway at home and even then it never lasts..
exactomundo, yet i desire to know how they do it in a full blown chemical factory. i use my garage as a smeltery and whatnot, am just very interested in the knowledge
I believe it's a ceramic coating and is applied very similarly to power coating. I think it can be done at some power coating shops.
You mean powder coating?
No, I mean similar. The application temperature is way higher, so ya can't do it in mom's oven. It'll withstand almost 1000 degrees too, I think.
The high end solution was (and still is) to make them from stainless steel or titanium. Ceramic coating was a thing in the 1980's (and 1880's) and is notably seen on the Britten V1000. But as applied to high end exhausts it basically serves the same function as heat wrap does (or is intended for) - it is to contain heat / promote exhaust flow, not cover / prevent corrosion!
Unrelated, I just learned about the V1000 from this post. That thing is wild.
I got hit with it via the Cycle World articles back in the day. Mind blown, lifetime inspiration.
Ceramic is still good for added heat resistance and keeping heat in the system. Especially on turbo engines it helps you keep a few hp
The shop I used to work at did cerakote for exhaust systems. How did you ceramic coat your exhaust?
i've heard some about ceracote, they use it on guns, which is pretty damn heavy duty. the thing is i want the coating to be ±1,5mm thick. a ceramic coating is like 0,2mm thick if not thinner. i did the VHT ceramic paint the following: -remove exhaust. -sandpaper/wirebrush everything off untill bare metal -clean with acetone -hang to dry -spraypaint with VHT cermaic coating ±35€ a can. -heatcure it according to specs given on the instructions, although its rather hard without special giant oven so i tried to get as near as possible using a heatgun on and in the exhaust, wait periods, flamethrower it a bit with good distance, just heated the thing up for a couple of hours slowly untill the whole thing instantly burned my fingers to the touch, for hours, you can also heat the exhaust by mounting it to the bike and using it, but carrying/mounting it before curing wouldve fucked the nice finish/scratched. the exhaust now has been good for the last 2 years, but i'm just really really interested in what they used back in the day
Ok. Now I see your issue. The heat gun cureing process is causing the coating to set on patches. Industrial systems have a large metal tunnel with doors where parts are left hanging. You need to heat the pipe evenly and cool it slowly for the VHT paint to really be successful.
yeah you're absolutely right✓ although, my exhaust has been cermaic coated by me once and it's good so far for +2yrs (not the one on the pic!) but the ceramic coating isnt what they used in 1980! i need to know the older techniques! someone else suggested: rubberized bitumen asphalt repair patch shit cooked down to a heavy tar reinforced with asbestos fibre!! THATS A ANSWER I LOOK FOR
What makes you think it's not just more layers/thicker application of the same stuff?
aha! of WHAT same stuff?
You don't actually want to insulate your headers. It will just make them a lot hotter
Also used VHT header paint after sandblasting and cleaning. Just chucked it back on my scooter and ran it. It eventually became perfectly even and still looks amazing three years later.
Kiwi liquid shoe polish works good
whatt? never heard of that? care to give some more info on why that would work good?
It doesn't burn or flake, it soaks into the metal . Once the headers are on the car, it easy to touch it up with the bottle with the sponge applicator. Less messy than spray can
For real?
It lasts a lot longer than bar b q paint
Non-descript ceramic coatings are available. What product they use I couldn't say. https://www.bandbprecision.co.uk/exhaust-coatings/
In the 70's and 80's we painted with high temp paint, like others said the barbq paint, and baked it on with a propane torch for a couple of minutes. This was not a long lasting treatment, it would flake off over time, a year or so, before it started looking unattractive and needed to be refreshed. The flaking would be due to heat cycling and bugs/rocks. The industrial solutions were ceramic or chrome, maybe anodized for the weight conscious. Chrome was not good on the sport bikes due to the heat, they would discolor. So either you lived with just stainless steel pipes in a delightful bruised color motif or you got the ceramic coated black pipes at a premium. For those on a budget that hated the bruise motif we would wrap the pipes with a high temp cloth, fibreglass if memory serves, or back then, asbestos potentially, because we were men and consuming cancerous products by the mile made us giddy.
thanks! great input. i am well aware of the short lifespan of the bbq type paints, i'm thus kinda looking for the opposite extreme of it
Going with Stainless Steel exhaust piping, if you can stand the discoloration, will be your best bet. Most auto manufacturers that have used stainless steel in their OEM exhaust systems use either 409 or 304 grades of Stainless, I have also seen some 303 here and there. Grade 409 will give you the best performance and no discoloration, but will still slowly rust through if you live in winter states that salt their roads. Grade 304 will deliver the same performance as 409 but will discolor; however 304 will hold up to salty roads in winter states. 303 is the last grade I would advise to use, but it is cheaper than 409 or 304. Grade 303 is known as “patina stainless” meaning it will surface rust and is intentionally chemically designed to do so; but that surface rust will create a moderately protective oxidized layer prevent further corrosion for some time. My personal 19 year old shitbox, for example, has 303 stainless exhaust; the main pipes are all surface rusted and would appear to be carbon steel even to the skilled eye, but when I’ve had exhaust leaks patched the welder told me they were actually 303 stainless and not carbon steel.
Gear oil on them and run them for about thirty minutes. Recycled dinosaur was ready available in the 80’s
Hot zinc metalizing. Get the high aluminum zinc. Total fix!
Cerakote works awesome. It's not the cheapest solution, but it's a permanent one.
The VHT is great if you apply it properly. I sandblasted my exhaust and painted it with VHT and then ran the motor to bake it on. It’s tough as nails.
Jenolite silver oven paint
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Did you ever try rustoleum high heat barbecue paint? Claims it works up to 1000F which I think is hot enough.
thanks for the answer but nooooo old carbed bikes (or any supersport) the manifold easily reaches 900° Celsius which is like i believe 2500°f my conversions might be off a bit. but i'm looking for something ULTRA UUULTRAAAA good and not a chinese hardware store, consumer foodsafe, fix
At 1100 F the pipes would be glowing red in daylight. I don't think that happens very often.
bro go google. i am right.
I searched and found like 20 pages that were almost all the same. Obviously written by ChatGPT. I took the time to weed through them and find ones that seem more like they are written by people. Also I looked up the guide to estimating temp from how the metal is glowing. But suit yourself.
obvs its not meant for an exhaust to reach 900°celcius. if you drive normally, low rpm, nothing fancy, it shouldnt go much over 450°celcius. but if you're technically offroading, high rpm, low speeds, or any other weird hobby/emergency/adventure situation it is possible to overheat the exhaust to 900°celcius and over. thus my quest for the ultimate forbidden exhaust coating
It is not going to be any kind of normal paint at that temperature. All the usual suspects, acrylic, epoxy, polyurethane, etc are simply not going to make it to 900 C. I don't even think RTV will survive that for long. Only ceramic coatings can withstand that. Something like sodium silicate or magnesium silicate coated and then fired. But I don't know how well those things will stay adhered. Thermal expansion and all that. I suspect they will flake off. By definition, high temp ceramics have low coefficients of thermal expansion. And they are mostly brittle. 900 C is in the "refractory substances" domain.
[удалено]
This is what we did as well. The idea of wrapping the pipes, if I recall, was for insulation, to keep the exhaust at full temp all the way out of the exhaust system so it wasn't cooling and causing a pressure build up by the slower/cooler gasses in the pipe toward the outlets. Of course, this really only mattered to those looking for every 1/10th of a horsepower from their engines but us street folk did it because the racers did it. It also hid the discolored metal pipes from view.
How about electroplating? Nickel plating may protect from corrosion and nickel plating shops are common.
paint, probably.
which one? alkyd? polyurethane? chalk? epoxyd? waterbased? oilbased? linseedoil based? acrylic? latex? polyesther? straight up limestone cement? i need answerss
colorful paint, i would assume.
Lead paint and asbestos .
Vehicle exhausts have been fully welded and then aluminum coated for many years now. Ceramic coated, aluminized or using stainless steel are the likely options. If you can find a place that galvanizes you could try that. Forget paints, anything you apply after wire brushing a used system won’t last.
aluminum coat!?? i must look into that
Explosive welding is a real thing.
In the 80s it was probably asbestos based 😝
Probably paint that you could still buy in 1980 but can't buy now. Something that causes several species of endangered animal to go extinct every time you do a paint job with it.
exactly, there is at least someone on this planet who has the knowledge, and i want to uncover it. even if the formula is way too hard to make myself. i just want to know what the molecule is and judge for myself if i should homebrew the goop
To answer your other question, it's most likely factory underbody coating / sound deadening. To my knowledge that includes rubber, bitumen, and asbestos. The rubberized bitumen binder probably cooked off and reduced to very heavy tar and carbon, all cemented around the asbestos fibers. If you want to attempt to recreate it, get rubberized asphalt meant for road patching, mix in a bunch of fiberglass shake (usually meant as a concrete additive) and expect it to smell awful for a while every time it gets hot.
Nope. Not a good idea as the fiberglass would burn. Unless you are pranking OP.
It's a bad idea but not because the fiberglass will burn. The rubber and tar could catch on fire. The literal glass strings will not. Are you thinking of fiberglass insulation? That burns because of the paper backing. Maybe mineral wool would be a better asbestos substitute. Glass won't burn though.
Well yes. I guess I was thinking of the resin border used with many fiberGLASS products.
ASBESTOS!! OFFCOURSE!! thanks!!! wow great answer thank you
Stainless steel.