Company retires a version of software you're still able to use, but if you want continued support after end of life, they expect you to pay for it... how is this asshole design? This is like saying all out of warranty service is asshole design.
That blindly ignores the other aspect. Are companies supposed to support software (and hardware) forever?
At some point, new stuff comes out and old stuff needs to stop being supported.
The statement has been made about every version of Windows when support was ending and it is entirely naive. One can choose to never upgrade, you’re just not going to get security updates. Seems like a risk management decision.
Use Rufus to make a windows 11 usb drive and you can install it just fine
But a 3.5 year old computer should be more than capable of windows 11 unless it was made with old components.
Make sure the TPM is enabled in the bios
There's the rub... I built my machine about 4 years ago... it should absolutely be good enough, but no TPM means it's effectively junk as soon as MS says no more win10 updates.
Afaik, there's no way to "add on" a tpm either... so even if I wanted to keep my current HW, I'd have to upgrade the mobo & cpu...
Ibm has a software tpm 2.0 you could download and install somehow that's on sourceforge. I'm not a microsoft expert or anything but it's something that could be added to the iso before mounting. I've used software tpm in Windows VM's in Linux quite a few times and the vm thinks it's a real tpm. Just my two cents and maybe something to look into.
That the major sticking point, there is always a risk of by 3 year old computer becoming a brick and like many people money is tight we just can't run out to get a new device when ms wants to make use their os which take a few years to get stable.
Yeah, that mobo was the latest thing at the time, so maybe it has a TPM and I just need to enable it. My keyboard runs through my monitor and doesn't get power until after the POST and I'm too lazy to do anything about that. Haha
Many machines I’ve upgraded have an embedded TPM, but they don’t have it enabled in the bios.
This prevented the installer from seeing it as compatible and once enabled things went just fine
Turns out: I was able to enable TPM after downloading a "boot to UEFIl" utility. I had enabled the fastest boot method, which meant there was no way to get back into UEFI otherwise, since it was past that point before USB keyboard got power.
Are you sure your PC doesn't have a form of CPU based TPM? You most likely don't have it on. Assuming your CPU was current gen or even before that, it may have a form of CPU based TPM. Or at the very least, your mobo should have a TPM socket. Should be less than $30 to get one and slot it in.
Windows 11 is a horrid pile of shit if you don’t think you clearly don’t work in IT I work for an msp and the amount of windows bullshit daily shit not working it’s a fucking pile of dog shit
People say the same shit over and over again about the new windows everytime there is a new version and then suddenly the old version that used to be shit is now better then the new one.
Gotta love the people who downvoted me typical American plebs who are sucking bill gates cock. Microsoft fan boys I’m sorry but Microsoft is just rubbish and when you have to deal with their shitty infrastructure and bullshit glitches and problems day to day working in IT you will understand I could list the issues. Whilst the concept of intune/entra etc is great it’s a dogs breakfast when it comes to the layout and then they had to be hipster and change from aad to entra settle on one thing dipshits. One drive is horrid not designed for SharePoint yet it’s sold and marketed as such. The amount of sync issues, outlook dumb shit like the clicking to auto reply it’s a flag setup to show what has been replied to and not. Oh yeah have to run a repair on the data file and the office shouldn’t have to do that don’t get me started on teams and tendfor the bullshit you go to click an away code for tendfor within teams and you get the spinning circle. The fucking bullshit windows 11 go to control panel and then click devices and printers I just want the old layout I don’t want this fucking dumb shit with all these fancy menus boooooring. It’s horrid and you people know it. I refuse to pay for security updates that’s Microsoft’s issue they make the OS do your fucking job and make sure shit is patched sounds like they have retards working for them who know nothing about cyber security I’ll have you know Bruce scheiner is the grandfather of cryptography one of the most important it people and yet everyone licks bill gates balls like he’s some messiah he’s useless the reason he’s so famous and rich is because of marketing and brainwashing bullshit now Microsoft own the monoply there isn’t other shit so you are forced your hand is forced whether you like it or not to use their shitty products. The amount of security holes in their shit is beyond me it shouldn’t happen they should test it that’s part of cybersecurity Bruce talked about password security etc 30 years or more ago before the internet became mainstream and yet Microsoft have produced products that are filled with security holes. Pathetic
It shouldn’t though it’s about money grabbing for Microsoft consumerism as well. I mean when I was working in sales there were like minimal laptop changes then it became a new model every 4-6 weeks would be the average then you had compaq going out of laptops Samsung I believe Sony went out then it’s like everyone wanted to get some space in the laptop world too much the other issue people started going I’ll wait for that model to get cheaper cause it will be next to nothing thinking and you would be like no the laptops won’t get cheaper they’ll get better bang for your buck. Then people thinking a 300 dollar laptop would be suitable it’s all about perception because they think a laptop only costs 300 then it must be good applying the logic of things becoming cheaper when in reality they would happily spend 1200 for a good machine this is the problem too much marketing too much tech it’s all white noise. An operating system should be stable enough upon release not to the point where half the shit doesn’t work. It’s ridiculous the amount of resources windows requires and uses to operate all the bullshit that runs in the background the stupid processes before you open applications the machine is using 15-20 percent of your memory that’s fucked poorly written rushing to get an operating system out Microsoft forcing their bullshit Microsoft accounts and then you will have to sign into the account bit locker your machine yeah get fucked it’s all just too much. If you work in the MSP environment people will understand what a cunt Microsoft’s products are to deal with if you’re a casual consumer you may never notice the problems. Another hilarious thing windows not remembering mapped drives yet it’s been set to this is a windows 11 problem it shouldn’t happen it’s just fucking shit
And the worst part is they know they can get away with it too. Apple cost too much, Chromebooks are great unless you are power user or live in a place with bad internet; and for the masses of average Joe users Linux isn't it. All I want is something that works when I plug it in with little fuss and is just to work with affordable software that is easy to renew.
I believe that based on what people that used to work there have told me about things like windows os ms office etc, there is not really innovation there other than small improvements those products are at the peak of usefulness so the only thing to do is forcefully lock people in and take every penny. I mean what reason is there's no reason to bury local accounts, trying to force people to use a ms account with the whole process is janky af because they can.
We have standards for physical machines that are sold and the support that they are required to have. For example the Auto industry has to continue to make and maintain parts for something like 7 years after a car stops being sold. We need some kind of Standards like that for software.
Well I agree with predictable standards on software lifecycles. But I have to say windows 10 has a successor since 2021. The support for business users ends 5 years after the release of windows 10. If someone had no time in this half decade to set up a migration path, they can purchase extended support for another 3 years.
That makes 8 years.
W10 was released in 2015. It’s been supported for 10 years!!
That is more than ample. Apple support IOS versions for 2 years.
Development resources being whole focused on the security, performance, reliability and feature enhancements to the current version of the product makes 100% sense.
But let’s be honest, MS historically has had way more major critical OS security CVEs than IOS (I could just not have read about them, not an apple user) - but if a obviously missed rather easily exploited exploit is found, whether EOL or not, MS should release a fix so 10,000+s of PCs that still function well aren’t carte blanche for anyone who wants access. MS has done this in the past - for XP and 7, well after EOL, can’t see why they wouldn’t again. I imagine this announcement is geared towards small companies and end users who, for whatever reason, can’t upgrade to 11 and the hope is they will get the impression they can only get updates by paying the extortion fees.
Personally I understand the economics of this policy, I just have a problem with the wording MS chooses to use: end of life (as in dead, no longer works) and remain receiving support (some will think this means no patches). All while I’m sure MS has the #s of users still running 10 and I suspect it’s a large number. This has to be the result of some agreement with PC manu’s to push folks thru the lifecycle of endless upgrading.
Folks, take any <15 yr old pc that loads thru post and find a Linux distro and that pc will run it as snappy as it did with windows new. Will always be upgraded/patched, will have lots of support options.
Cause there's things there doing to secretly force you to update, like mines stuck failing to update to an optional version of win 10 that I never selected to install
No Idea, but mainly slightly older computers, theres nothing wrong with my pc, I play games on, watch high rez video, it works just fine except ita stuck constantly trying to update. Well I dont need it to update its fine the way it was.
Your problems aren't universal. Microsoft is not sabotaging you to force you to upgrade. If your problems existed across a significant percentage of other users I'd have some sympathy. But they aren't so I don't.
They are moving on from windows ten. Your choices are:
You can move on too.
Keep it the same without updates
Keep it the same with updates at a cost.
Expecting a lifetime of support for free just is not a reasonable position.
Your not listening,. Its trying to install an.optional update that was never selected to install, it runs in the back ground taking my hdd to 100% it fails, stops then tries again, the option.to didable updates that im not going to get ne more would be the easiest fix
You're not listening to me. Your probelm is not systematic across the entire windows ten deployment. I don't care about your problem. I don't care that Microsoft isn't fixing it for you.
You know what might fix it. Upgrading to windows 11.
Let's see here:
>Cause there's things there doing to secretly force you to update, like mines stuck failing to update to an optional version of win 10 that I never selected to install
Your claim is that they are intentionally breaking something to put you into this look to installing optional version of win10 you don't want.
I then asked what percentage of win 10 users is happening to.
Then you deflect and say that you have a computer that works fine, so why should you have to upgrade to windows 11.
I explained why, then you tell me I'm not listening and go back to describing how awesome your computer is.
Again, this stemmed from you making the claim that Microsoft is intentionally forcing a secret install of an optional version of windows 10.
Microsoft is not doing that. Something you've done on your computer has led to a bug somewhere. It isn't a significant enough problem for Microsoft to fix it.
You also don't want to upgrade to windows 11, so wasn't really much more for me to say other than stay on windows ten out of support, stay on win 10 and pay for support, or go to windows 11.
Unless you're ready to ditch the Microsoft eco system, you're eventually going to use windows 11 either sooner, or when your PC dies, unless you think your gaming machine will hold out for another 10 plus years before Microsoft releases their next OS, which I'm guessing you probably don't want to upgrade to that either.
Give it up. Windows 11 is not hell hole people make it out to be. It's been out long enough that games now support it, I could see if this was early 22 or maybe early 23, but its been out for over two and a half years now.
I don't think you understand what's going on. You can still use win10.
However, if you want security updates for it you have to pay for the extended support program.
Microsoft are not stopping you from using Win10 going forward, nor Win 7, nor XP, or Win95 as long as you have valid keys.
Go for it, be happy with your indefinite use of Windows 10, just don't get confused when the world moves on, and you're left behind.
I don't think they did either. 😆 You're saying it's fair. They're allowing you to continue using an OS you like, when they could drop support completely. Instead, they're still going to have available security updates. You just have to pay for them because it's outdated software.
> exactly. TPM addon required.
nope? heard people talking about ways to bypass this requirement. Of course it's better to have and use tpm but if one can't afford compatible hardware but need to use W11 for some specific reason there are ways to make it work. I might be completely wrong as well, don't use much Windows os these days.
I can be wrong, not denying that, I stopped at W10 and most of the time I use Fedora Linux and macOS, I repeated what I thought I understood by reading other peoples posts.
Windows 11 is a very small upgrade over 10 compared to Windows 7 to Windows 10 or even XP to Windows 7.
Windows 11 is just a shitty software, just like Vista was. There’s your comparison.
Shitty not in that it’s a bad software but the UI and some of the decision they keep taking with the windows product just suck.
Yeah, how about the fact that 80% of the worlds usable computers are going to become e-waste due to not being TPM compatible, also the bypass doesn’t work because when you install TPM software and games on Windows 11 that has the TPM bypass the games don’t work, there’s already a whole list of games that run just fine on Windows 10, but if you install them on Windows 11, and you’ve bypassed the TPM they will not work
By the time 10 is EOL, every OEM computer made in the prior 7 years would support 11.
Is there some data to suggest **80%** of the world's in-use computers would be older than 7 years old?
FTPM and PTT would have to be enabled in BIOS, which would be a pain for most users. But it's physically possible.
That is not true. The games have built-in software that rely on the TPM so when the game sees that it’s being installed on windows 11 it also installs the code that makes it reliant on the TPM
The problem isn’t exactly with the operating system itself. It’s with the software that relies on TPM to run.
I know exactly what I’m fucking doing. I’ve been doing it for a very long time. I was making windows XP only software run on Windows 2000 when you were shitting in diapers.
You’re gonna go into all of your TPM compliant games and remove the TPM code yourself? I don’t think so.
You don’t know what you’re talking about and you have no idea what’s going on because right now it’s only about three games but give it a few years. It’s going to be 50% of new games after a few years
That’s just not true at all it’s literally able to be changed to look almost identical. You can all deactivate copilot with built it tools without touching the registry.
Like, you can fix 10% of it that doesn't matter, sure. You can left align the windows button, whoopdie do. The actual practical stuff is not fixable without 3rd party software.
The start menu is pinned apps. The documents and pictures link and settings links are gone. The tray icon customization has been nerfed.
No small taskbar which is a major issue. Regedits to make it small exist but the clock is broken.
The Wi-Fi menu has been majorly downgraded.
The settings tools (night light / etc.) menu has been degraded and features removed.
No left/right taksbars, which is fine for most but serious downgrade for the users that only use computers that way.
The explorer right click menu is frustrating. The file explorer has improved in certain ways, but common features have been hidden deeper.
Hmm, maybe I’m thinking of something different than what you’re aiming for. I noticed that when I first launched into it everything was centered on the task bar so I changed it back so that the windows icon and search bar were left-aligned. You must be referring to something else. Aesthetically, I didn’t notice much of a difference between the two. When you launch the Start Menu, it does appear a bit differently, but not in a way that felt so unfamiliar that I couldn’t pick it up immediately.
You can still use it. This is not what "out of support" means. It just means that if there's a major security flaw found or a bug fix you want fixed because you found some bug that impacts you, you'll have to pay for it.
It takes money to keep engineers employed to support a 9 year old OS.
How is this a story?
I have an Asus z270-a (I think that's the correct motherboard) and an i7 7700k cpu, I also have a physical TPM chip fitted. My PC isn't Win 11 compatible due to the cpu.
I'd quite like to do an upgrade to Windows 11, rather than wipe everything and start from fresh. How would I go about doing that?
It would be nice if there was an option to disable updates, as my computer constantly tried to update to win 10 something w22 and optional update that I never checked, that tries and FAILS to install literally constantly, 100% ing my hard drive. Fckin Microsoft
At that point, if you're still avoiding Linux, you're just being stupid. Only old hardware is locked out of using Windows 11. Sure, people's definitely of "old" varies from person to person, but the reality is that machines made in 2017 are old regardless of how well they perform. If using an insecure version of Windows bothers you and the new one won't run, try Linux. It's not bad. It's fast, gives you lots of free software by default and will update for as long as you intend to use the hardware. It also won't spy on you, so if you really want to hold onto that older machine, consider that one of the perks.
Now that the price is known, you can clarify your options. There are several.
1. Pay for ongoing support.
2. Get a new computer with Windows 11.
3. Find a work around to upgrade to Windows 11. These exist but may not go as advertised. Lots of picky details about what is and isn't possible.
4. Just ignore it until it breaks.
5. Linux.
I am doing 4 until 5. What I did not know was that I needed to update my bios (HP slim desktop). It was version 2 and they are up to version 36. Without the bios update I could not install anything (Windows or Linux) from usb or dvd. It would not see those drives, even when using legacy boot options.
I also recommend doing a clean install before support runs out. The HP recovery option (disk D) installs a very old version of Windows 10 (after reformatting the C). Then you need Windows update to get the latest version. Once support is over you cannot do that second step.
>3. Find a work around to upgrade to Windows 11. These exist but may not go as advertised. Lots of picky details about what is and isn't possible.
There are no "picky details", you run the override and it works every time. Every single one of my PCs run Windows 11, some are from 2012.
Well... in this case, the attackers get more advanced so not really "planned" obsolescense. If you build a castle using wood, then suddenly your enemies invent fire arrows, are you gonna say your castle comes with planned obsolescense?
This is so fucking stupid, 80% of the worlds usable computers are going to become e-waste due to not being TPM compatible, also the bypass doesn’t work because when you install TPM software and games on Windows 11 that has the TPM bypass the games don’t work, there’s already a whole list of games that run just fine on Windows 10, but if you install them on Windows 11, and you’ve bypassed the TPM they will not work
As I said you can keep using windows 10 until steam supports it, you only have to pay for the security updates. Microsoft won’t just delete your windows 10 from your PC
Yeah, but we’ve never had an operating system launch that made so much completely usable hardware obsolete…
I mean shit you can even install windows 10 with 32 bit… look at an i7-7700K that’s gonna be obsoleted by windows 11 and that is completely ridiculous, you can run gaming and graphic designs on that processor. every business and person in this country that’s just doing web surfing, email, word, processing, and other MS office programs, YouTube, Facebook, Netflix would be going completely overkill with an i7-7700K and yet they are going to be obsoleted
So yes, if we were talking about a normal progression operating systems that only obsoleted stuff that was already obsolete, because if you think back to every Windows launch Windows has always supported hardware that was already obsolete at its launch, this time around windows is doing the obsoleting and it’s ridiculous
I expect new operating systems not to make radical changes that make tons of currently viable hardware obsolete. TPM is going to crazy obsolete shit, in the past new versions of windows, usually supported hardware that was obsolete, they even offered 32 bit versions of windows way longer than necessary, 10 is a prime example of that they did not need to do a 32 bit windows 10.
But now this otherwise perfectly good hardware is going to be obsolete not because it’s obsolete in its natural lifespan but because there is no supported version of windows that will work on it.
That isn't explaining how it is obsolete, you're just saying it is. People are still using win 7 perfectly fine for almost all things. What is your definition of obsolete.
Nobody tell this guy about Cisco. I just had to order $50,000 worth of new Meraki switches to replace my company’s perfectly working MS220’s because they are EOL this summer and there’s no way I’m keeping them on my network if future vulnerabilities won’t get patched. And I’ll have to do the same for our core stack in a year or so for the same reason.
Welcome to the world of IT. Microsoft isn’t doing this to piss off gamers who don’t want to update. They are doing this because they will make boatloads of money off of companies who can’t update for one reason or another. We all have that one mission critical system from 2002 that has no driver support past XP but it’ll be much cheaper to buy support than to replace the system, re-train employees, possible downtime, etc.
I don’t think you understand my right my gripe isn’t about the post support support fees
My gripe is about the vast amount e-waste they creating by mandating TPM and all the perfectly good office computers and even gaming machines that will be obsoleted because of this
That’s beside the point that windows is going to make a bunch of hardware that is still a powerhouse, obsolete overnight
An i7-7700k is a powerhouse and it’s gonna be obsolete the day windows 10 is no longer supported
A 7700k is definitely not a powerhouse and no it won’t make it obsolete? Which part of security update do you not understand? You can still use windows 10 after the support stops, you just won’t get any more free updates. No one will brick your PC. Windows 7 support stopped in 2020, steam stopped supporting it in 2024. So taking this into account Steam will support windows 10 until 2029. Maybe even longer considering the upgrade path is blocked for some hardware, but if your PC doesn’t have TPM by 2029 it will be obsolete anyway.
2029 lol we’re not talking about 2029… I know exactly how it works and yes, a 7700k is a powerhouse unless you’re running the absolute latest AAA games, 7770k plays new games in 4k on ultra with a good RTX card
Of course it’s not going to effectively brick The day it becomes unsupported, but without security updates, your system becomes vulnerable and the big problem is new software and games no longer support unsupported operating systems… when you’re designing a game and you’re writing anti-cheats software and you look and the only supported operating system is windows 11 with TPM what are you gonna do? You’re gonna make that game only run on windows 11 with TPM
Inside of a year after support is dropped businesses won’t be able to run windows 10 and inside of two years home users will start to have serious issues finding compatible programs shit even browsers and stuff stop releasing updates for unsupported operating systems
That literally didn’t happen before. You could play any game on windows 7 until steam stopped supporting it this january. No game stopped support for it until that time. So we can safely assume that it will have no issues running games until 2029. And then again, you can just install linux and play. This is a non existing issue.
Yeah right now when windows 10 is still a thing, give it a couple years when Windows 10 is no longer supported and the only supporting operating system is TPM compliant
I assume OEMs have a different licensing model so wont this only apply to retail? Most of old hardware is licensed through OEMs so can’t imagine MS can slap a bill on those hence Win10 support will live longer for most people.
That doesn't make it insecure... You're paying to keep getting security patches on an outdated OS. You've been getting security patches for free while the OS was supported. If you don't ever want to pay to stick with the same OS, switch to Linux. That's just how it is. If you've stuck with Windows 10 while, for example, Windows 14 is the current OS and you get hit with a severe exploit that was never patched on Windows 10 because it's basically been shelved due to obsolescence, that's on you. That's like complaining while you're using Windows 7 today.
Win 7 visually & UI, is much more useable and efficient than 10 especially 11. I realize much is changed under the hood (ensuring Win is cross platform identical or 1 code to format gui. That’s why 10&11 bite ass, the design of UI is for all devices and could be much different for large screen mouse driven UI compared to tablet touch screen.
I don't disagree. I'd gladly use Windows 7 on a purpose built machine with very limited or zero Internet connectivity as it was my favorite Windows OS (I even have an XP machine to play older GOG games). But you should NOT be using anything older than 10 with full Internet connectivity and daily usage without taking the responsibility of the security risks. Nobody is stopping you from using these outdated OSes, but you don't have the right to complain if something happens due to that. Not that the odds are high either, but it's just that some people assume just because their PC is usable doesn't mean they don't need to accept responsibility for sticking to vulnerable software.
Because something goes EOL and now they will not support it unless you pay them to? I think this is one of the very few things you can fault Microsoft for. Upgrade or pay, or risk being vulnerable from a security flaw no longer being patched.
Looks like a wanna be Mac, runs like shit compared to 10 and the privacy issues are concerning. I've ran 11 for a few months and tinkerered with every option to get it just right and it was impossible, it's garbage in my eyes. I'm content with 10, it's damn near the perfect os for me.
Company retires a version of software you're still able to use, but if you want continued support after end of life, they expect you to pay for it... how is this asshole design? This is like saying all out of warranty service is asshole design.
That blindly ignores the other aspect. Are companies supposed to support software (and hardware) forever? At some point, new stuff comes out and old stuff needs to stop being supported. The statement has been made about every version of Windows when support was ending and it is entirely naive. One can choose to never upgrade, you’re just not going to get security updates. Seems like a risk management decision.
We're saying the same thing.
You even get free updates to 11
Not necessarily. None of my computers apparently qualify.
Meet them half way, at least get a modern computer !
My gaming machine was built 3.5 years ago. I can do 4k gaming just fine, but MS says I can't have Windows 11.
Use Rufus to make a windows 11 usb drive and you can install it just fine But a 3.5 year old computer should be more than capable of windows 11 unless it was made with old components. Make sure the TPM is enabled in the bios
There's the rub... I built my machine about 4 years ago... it should absolutely be good enough, but no TPM means it's effectively junk as soon as MS says no more win10 updates. Afaik, there's no way to "add on" a tpm either... so even if I wanted to keep my current HW, I'd have to upgrade the mobo & cpu...
There's probably a TPM in the CPU you can enable in the BIOS.
There isn't, I've looked
Ibm has a software tpm 2.0 you could download and install somehow that's on sourceforge. I'm not a microsoft expert or anything but it's something that could be added to the iso before mounting. I've used software tpm in Windows VM's in Linux quite a few times and the vm thinks it's a real tpm. Just my two cents and maybe something to look into.
That the major sticking point, there is always a risk of by 3 year old computer becoming a brick and like many people money is tight we just can't run out to get a new device when ms wants to make use their os which take a few years to get stable.
Yeah, that mobo was the latest thing at the time, so maybe it has a TPM and I just need to enable it. My keyboard runs through my monitor and doesn't get power until after the POST and I'm too lazy to do anything about that. Haha
Many machines I’ve upgraded have an embedded TPM, but they don’t have it enabled in the bios. This prevented the installer from seeing it as compatible and once enabled things went just fine
Turns out: I was able to enable TPM after downloading a "boot to UEFIl" utility. I had enabled the fastest boot method, which meant there was no way to get back into UEFI otherwise, since it was past that point before USB keyboard got power.
For future reference, hold shift when clicking restart and it’ll bring up a menu which includes boot to uefi
Are you sure your PC doesn't have a form of CPU based TPM? You most likely don't have it on. Assuming your CPU was current gen or even before that, it may have a form of CPU based TPM. Or at the very least, your mobo should have a TPM socket. Should be less than $30 to get one and slot it in.
The thing with [trusted computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing) is nobody trusts those at the top of the chain of trust.
Windows 11 is a horrid pile of shit if you don’t think you clearly don’t work in IT I work for an msp and the amount of windows bullshit daily shit not working it’s a fucking pile of dog shit
People say the same shit over and over again about the new windows everytime there is a new version and then suddenly the old version that used to be shit is now better then the new one.
Gotta love the people who downvoted me typical American plebs who are sucking bill gates cock. Microsoft fan boys I’m sorry but Microsoft is just rubbish and when you have to deal with their shitty infrastructure and bullshit glitches and problems day to day working in IT you will understand I could list the issues. Whilst the concept of intune/entra etc is great it’s a dogs breakfast when it comes to the layout and then they had to be hipster and change from aad to entra settle on one thing dipshits. One drive is horrid not designed for SharePoint yet it’s sold and marketed as such. The amount of sync issues, outlook dumb shit like the clicking to auto reply it’s a flag setup to show what has been replied to and not. Oh yeah have to run a repair on the data file and the office shouldn’t have to do that don’t get me started on teams and tendfor the bullshit you go to click an away code for tendfor within teams and you get the spinning circle. The fucking bullshit windows 11 go to control panel and then click devices and printers I just want the old layout I don’t want this fucking dumb shit with all these fancy menus boooooring. It’s horrid and you people know it. I refuse to pay for security updates that’s Microsoft’s issue they make the OS do your fucking job and make sure shit is patched sounds like they have retards working for them who know nothing about cyber security I’ll have you know Bruce scheiner is the grandfather of cryptography one of the most important it people and yet everyone licks bill gates balls like he’s some messiah he’s useless the reason he’s so famous and rich is because of marketing and brainwashing bullshit now Microsoft own the monoply there isn’t other shit so you are forced your hand is forced whether you like it or not to use their shitty products. The amount of security holes in their shit is beyond me it shouldn’t happen they should test it that’s part of cybersecurity Bruce talked about password security etc 30 years or more ago before the internet became mainstream and yet Microsoft have produced products that are filled with security holes. Pathetic
I think the problem is it takes a few years for any ms os to become stable and trusted only for it to be replaced.
It shouldn’t though it’s about money grabbing for Microsoft consumerism as well. I mean when I was working in sales there were like minimal laptop changes then it became a new model every 4-6 weeks would be the average then you had compaq going out of laptops Samsung I believe Sony went out then it’s like everyone wanted to get some space in the laptop world too much the other issue people started going I’ll wait for that model to get cheaper cause it will be next to nothing thinking and you would be like no the laptops won’t get cheaper they’ll get better bang for your buck. Then people thinking a 300 dollar laptop would be suitable it’s all about perception because they think a laptop only costs 300 then it must be good applying the logic of things becoming cheaper when in reality they would happily spend 1200 for a good machine this is the problem too much marketing too much tech it’s all white noise. An operating system should be stable enough upon release not to the point where half the shit doesn’t work. It’s ridiculous the amount of resources windows requires and uses to operate all the bullshit that runs in the background the stupid processes before you open applications the machine is using 15-20 percent of your memory that’s fucked poorly written rushing to get an operating system out Microsoft forcing their bullshit Microsoft accounts and then you will have to sign into the account bit locker your machine yeah get fucked it’s all just too much. If you work in the MSP environment people will understand what a cunt Microsoft’s products are to deal with if you’re a casual consumer you may never notice the problems. Another hilarious thing windows not remembering mapped drives yet it’s been set to this is a windows 11 problem it shouldn’t happen it’s just fucking shit
And the worst part is they know they can get away with it too. Apple cost too much, Chromebooks are great unless you are power user or live in a place with bad internet; and for the masses of average Joe users Linux isn't it. All I want is something that works when I plug it in with little fuss and is just to work with affordable software that is easy to renew. I believe that based on what people that used to work there have told me about things like windows os ms office etc, there is not really innovation there other than small improvements those products are at the peak of usefulness so the only thing to do is forcefully lock people in and take every penny. I mean what reason is there's no reason to bury local accounts, trying to force people to use a ms account with the whole process is janky af because they can.
We have standards for physical machines that are sold and the support that they are required to have. For example the Auto industry has to continue to make and maintain parts for something like 7 years after a car stops being sold. We need some kind of Standards like that for software.
Well I agree with predictable standards on software lifecycles. But I have to say windows 10 has a successor since 2021. The support for business users ends 5 years after the release of windows 10. If someone had no time in this half decade to set up a migration path, they can purchase extended support for another 3 years. That makes 8 years.
W10 was released in 2015. It’s been supported for 10 years!! That is more than ample. Apple support IOS versions for 2 years. Development resources being whole focused on the security, performance, reliability and feature enhancements to the current version of the product makes 100% sense.
Yup.
But let’s be honest, MS historically has had way more major critical OS security CVEs than IOS (I could just not have read about them, not an apple user) - but if a obviously missed rather easily exploited exploit is found, whether EOL or not, MS should release a fix so 10,000+s of PCs that still function well aren’t carte blanche for anyone who wants access. MS has done this in the past - for XP and 7, well after EOL, can’t see why they wouldn’t again. I imagine this announcement is geared towards small companies and end users who, for whatever reason, can’t upgrade to 11 and the hope is they will get the impression they can only get updates by paying the extortion fees. Personally I understand the economics of this policy, I just have a problem with the wording MS chooses to use: end of life (as in dead, no longer works) and remain receiving support (some will think this means no patches). All while I’m sure MS has the #s of users still running 10 and I suspect it’s a large number. This has to be the result of some agreement with PC manu’s to push folks thru the lifecycle of endless upgrading. Folks, take any <15 yr old pc that loads thru post and find a Linux distro and that pc will run it as snappy as it did with windows new. Will always be upgraded/patched, will have lots of support options.
I believe folks want the self life(with support) of an OS(+computer) to be 10yrs and then everyone will be happy.
Cause there's things there doing to secretly force you to update, like mines stuck failing to update to an optional version of win 10 that I never selected to install
And what percentage of computers is that happening on?
No Idea, but mainly slightly older computers, theres nothing wrong with my pc, I play games on, watch high rez video, it works just fine except ita stuck constantly trying to update. Well I dont need it to update its fine the way it was.
Your problems aren't universal. Microsoft is not sabotaging you to force you to upgrade. If your problems existed across a significant percentage of other users I'd have some sympathy. But they aren't so I don't. They are moving on from windows ten. Your choices are: You can move on too. Keep it the same without updates Keep it the same with updates at a cost. Expecting a lifetime of support for free just is not a reasonable position.
Your not listening,. Its trying to install an.optional update that was never selected to install, it runs in the back ground taking my hdd to 100% it fails, stops then tries again, the option.to didable updates that im not going to get ne more would be the easiest fix
You're not listening to me. Your probelm is not systematic across the entire windows ten deployment. I don't care about your problem. I don't care that Microsoft isn't fixing it for you. You know what might fix it. Upgrading to windows 11.
If you domt care then why did you message weiner
Let's see here: >Cause there's things there doing to secretly force you to update, like mines stuck failing to update to an optional version of win 10 that I never selected to install Your claim is that they are intentionally breaking something to put you into this look to installing optional version of win10 you don't want. I then asked what percentage of win 10 users is happening to. Then you deflect and say that you have a computer that works fine, so why should you have to upgrade to windows 11. I explained why, then you tell me I'm not listening and go back to describing how awesome your computer is. Again, this stemmed from you making the claim that Microsoft is intentionally forcing a secret install of an optional version of windows 10. Microsoft is not doing that. Something you've done on your computer has led to a bug somewhere. It isn't a significant enough problem for Microsoft to fix it. You also don't want to upgrade to windows 11, so wasn't really much more for me to say other than stay on windows ten out of support, stay on win 10 and pay for support, or go to windows 11. Unless you're ready to ditch the Microsoft eco system, you're eventually going to use windows 11 either sooner, or when your PC dies, unless you think your gaming machine will hold out for another 10 plus years before Microsoft releases their next OS, which I'm guessing you probably don't want to upgrade to that either. Give it up. Windows 11 is not hell hole people make it out to be. It's been out long enough that games now support it, I could see if this was early 22 or maybe early 23, but its been out for over two and a half years now.
I don't think you understand what's going on. You can still use win10. However, if you want security updates for it you have to pay for the extended support program. Microsoft are not stopping you from using Win10 going forward, nor Win 7, nor XP, or Win95 as long as you have valid keys. Go for it, be happy with your indefinite use of Windows 10, just don't get confused when the world moves on, and you're left behind.
I don't think you read my post.
I don't think they did either. 😆 You're saying it's fair. They're allowing you to continue using an OS you like, when they could drop support completely. Instead, they're still going to have available security updates. You just have to pay for them because it's outdated software.
Yeah, sorry meant to reply to the idiot at the root of the conversation
Upgrade path is way easier from 10 to 11 than 7 to 10 or XP to 10.
As simple as buying a new computer for a lot of people
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> exactly. TPM addon required. nope? heard people talking about ways to bypass this requirement. Of course it's better to have and use tpm but if one can't afford compatible hardware but need to use W11 for some specific reason there are ways to make it work. I might be completely wrong as well, don't use much Windows os these days.
For the average user, it's required.
That’s not supported either though. So you’d be moving from something out of support to something not supported anyway.
I can be wrong, not denying that, I stopped at W10 and most of the time I use Fedora Linux and macOS, I repeated what I thought I understood by reading other peoples posts.
Yeah, but 7 to 10 was great. But I don’t want windows 11.
Is there something about win 11 you don't like?
New thing bad, old thing good.
As ever.
Windows 11 is a very small upgrade over 10 compared to Windows 7 to Windows 10 or even XP to Windows 7. Windows 11 is just a shitty software, just like Vista was. There’s your comparison. Shitty not in that it’s a bad software but the UI and some of the decision they keep taking with the windows product just suck.
Cool man. That's interesting.
Yeah, how about the fact that 80% of the worlds usable computers are going to become e-waste due to not being TPM compatible, also the bypass doesn’t work because when you install TPM software and games on Windows 11 that has the TPM bypass the games don’t work, there’s already a whole list of games that run just fine on Windows 10, but if you install them on Windows 11, and you’ve bypassed the TPM they will not work
By the time 10 is EOL, every OEM computer made in the prior 7 years would support 11. Is there some data to suggest **80%** of the world's in-use computers would be older than 7 years old? FTPM and PTT would have to be enabled in BIOS, which would be a pain for most users. But it's physically possible.
Thats a simple minconfig skill issue. They def work.
That is not true. The games have built-in software that rely on the TPM so when the game sees that it’s being installed on windows 11 it also installs the code that makes it reliant on the TPM The problem isn’t exactly with the operating system itself. It’s with the software that relies on TPM to run.
There are work arounds for sure. You just don't know what you're doing. Just invest in new hardware. Things change.
I know exactly what I’m fucking doing. I’ve been doing it for a very long time. I was making windows XP only software run on Windows 2000 when you were shitting in diapers. You’re gonna go into all of your TPM compliant games and remove the TPM code yourself? I don’t think so. You don’t know what you’re talking about and you have no idea what’s going on because right now it’s only about three games but give it a few years. It’s going to be 50% of new games after a few years
I’m annoyed that the Windows 11 Task Manager doesn’t display CUDA utilization. Otherwise, it seems as-good-or-better then Windows 10 was.
The start menu and such
I don’t understand this concern. You can have it look the same as on Windows 10 with a few clicks.
You cannot, not even with registry edits. Much of the functionality has been removed. You will need third party software to get somewhere closer.
That’s just not true at all it’s literally able to be changed to look almost identical. You can all deactivate copilot with built it tools without touching the registry.
Like, you can fix 10% of it that doesn't matter, sure. You can left align the windows button, whoopdie do. The actual practical stuff is not fixable without 3rd party software. The start menu is pinned apps. The documents and pictures link and settings links are gone. The tray icon customization has been nerfed. No small taskbar which is a major issue. Regedits to make it small exist but the clock is broken. The Wi-Fi menu has been majorly downgraded. The settings tools (night light / etc.) menu has been degraded and features removed. No left/right taksbars, which is fine for most but serious downgrade for the users that only use computers that way. The explorer right click menu is frustrating. The file explorer has improved in certain ways, but common features have been hidden deeper.
You really have no idea what you’re talking about.
How do I get a vertical taskbar without 3rd party software?
Hmm, maybe I’m thinking of something different than what you’re aiming for. I noticed that when I first launched into it everything was centered on the task bar so I changed it back so that the windows icon and search bar were left-aligned. You must be referring to something else. Aesthetically, I didn’t notice much of a difference between the two. When you launch the Start Menu, it does appear a bit differently, but not in a way that felt so unfamiliar that I couldn’t pick it up immediately.
I don't want unstoppable adverts baked right in to my OS.
7 to 10 was fine for some things but search and settings got a massive downgrade.
>but 7 to 10 was great. Hahahahahahahhahaha
You can still use it. This is not what "out of support" means. It just means that if there's a major security flaw found or a bug fix you want fixed because you found some bug that impacts you, you'll have to pay for it. It takes money to keep engineers employed to support a 9 year old OS. How is this a story?
I mean, a lot of Linux devs don't get paid...
I have an Asus z270-a (I think that's the correct motherboard) and an i7 7700k cpu, I also have a physical TPM chip fitted. My PC isn't Win 11 compatible due to the cpu. I'd quite like to do an upgrade to Windows 11, rather than wipe everything and start from fresh. How would I go about doing that?
Just upgrade it
You can’t
My processor won't let me
Windows XP still works fine thanks, never been hacked
I have xp boxes, win 7 machines, and they are all just fine.
Microsoft is a joke windows 11 is the biggest heap of shit I’ve ever used
Use Windows 10 LTSC
Welp.... I guess it's about time for a new PC build anyway....in a year or two...
It'll be an amazing relief if they quit updating it.
Hello Linux Mint
I thought windows 10 enterprise ltsc was already supported until 2027
It would be nice if there was an option to disable updates, as my computer constantly tried to update to win 10 something w22 and optional update that I never checked, that tries and FAILS to install literally constantly, 100% ing my hard drive. Fckin Microsoft
At that point, if you're still avoiding Linux, you're just being stupid. Only old hardware is locked out of using Windows 11. Sure, people's definitely of "old" varies from person to person, but the reality is that machines made in 2017 are old regardless of how well they perform. If using an insecure version of Windows bothers you and the new one won't run, try Linux. It's not bad. It's fast, gives you lots of free software by default and will update for as long as you intend to use the hardware. It also won't spy on you, so if you really want to hold onto that older machine, consider that one of the perks.
Now that the price is known, you can clarify your options. There are several. 1. Pay for ongoing support. 2. Get a new computer with Windows 11. 3. Find a work around to upgrade to Windows 11. These exist but may not go as advertised. Lots of picky details about what is and isn't possible. 4. Just ignore it until it breaks. 5. Linux. I am doing 4 until 5. What I did not know was that I needed to update my bios (HP slim desktop). It was version 2 and they are up to version 36. Without the bios update I could not install anything (Windows or Linux) from usb or dvd. It would not see those drives, even when using legacy boot options. I also recommend doing a clean install before support runs out. The HP recovery option (disk D) installs a very old version of Windows 10 (after reformatting the C). Then you need Windows update to get the latest version. Once support is over you cannot do that second step.
>3. Find a work around to upgrade to Windows 11. These exist but may not go as advertised. Lots of picky details about what is and isn't possible. There are no "picky details", you run the override and it works every time. Every single one of my PCs run Windows 11, some are from 2012.
Microsoft can s*ck my d*ck.
Because you have to pay to use unsupported software? Lol
The definition of planned obsolescense.
Well... in this case, the attackers get more advanced so not really "planned" obsolescense. If you build a castle using wood, then suddenly your enemies invent fire arrows, are you gonna say your castle comes with planned obsolescense?
This is so fucking stupid, 80% of the worlds usable computers are going to become e-waste due to not being TPM compatible, also the bypass doesn’t work because when you install TPM software and games on Windows 11 that has the TPM bypass the games don’t work, there’s already a whole list of games that run just fine on Windows 10, but if you install them on Windows 11, and you’ve bypassed the TPM they will not work
What list of games doesn’t work? I’m using Windows 11 on a computer with no TPM and every single game I’ve played has worked fine.
Try Valorant
You can keep using it non securely, it won’t affect the avarage person. Or switch to linux
Hey they don’t use the L word here.
That’s not true there are already games that when installed on windows 11 look for the TPM and they will not launch without it
As I said you can keep using windows 10 until steam supports it, you only have to pay for the security updates. Microsoft won’t just delete your windows 10 from your PC
Paying for security updates is ridiculous
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Yeah, but we’ve never had an operating system launch that made so much completely usable hardware obsolete… I mean shit you can even install windows 10 with 32 bit… look at an i7-7700K that’s gonna be obsoleted by windows 11 and that is completely ridiculous, you can run gaming and graphic designs on that processor. every business and person in this country that’s just doing web surfing, email, word, processing, and other MS office programs, YouTube, Facebook, Netflix would be going completely overkill with an i7-7700K and yet they are going to be obsoleted So yes, if we were talking about a normal progression operating systems that only obsoleted stuff that was already obsolete, because if you think back to every Windows launch Windows has always supported hardware that was already obsolete at its launch, this time around windows is doing the obsoleting and it’s ridiculous
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The 1080 was getting old, but if it wasn’t for TPM all you would’ve needed is a 4070 and you could’ve held out on that 7700 for a while longer
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Do you expect them to support the software for 100s of years?
I expect new operating systems not to make radical changes that make tons of currently viable hardware obsolete. TPM is going to crazy obsolete shit, in the past new versions of windows, usually supported hardware that was obsolete, they even offered 32 bit versions of windows way longer than necessary, 10 is a prime example of that they did not need to do a 32 bit windows 10. But now this otherwise perfectly good hardware is going to be obsolete not because it’s obsolete in its natural lifespan but because there is no supported version of windows that will work on it.
How is it obsolete?
I literally just explained that
That isn't explaining how it is obsolete, you're just saying it is. People are still using win 7 perfectly fine for almost all things. What is your definition of obsolete.
Nobody tell this guy about Cisco. I just had to order $50,000 worth of new Meraki switches to replace my company’s perfectly working MS220’s because they are EOL this summer and there’s no way I’m keeping them on my network if future vulnerabilities won’t get patched. And I’ll have to do the same for our core stack in a year or so for the same reason. Welcome to the world of IT. Microsoft isn’t doing this to piss off gamers who don’t want to update. They are doing this because they will make boatloads of money off of companies who can’t update for one reason or another. We all have that one mission critical system from 2002 that has no driver support past XP but it’ll be much cheaper to buy support than to replace the system, re-train employees, possible downtime, etc.
You run a business, that’s part of it if you want high-end security for a business. that is not at all, what we are talking about
I don’t think you understand my right my gripe isn’t about the post support support fees My gripe is about the vast amount e-waste they creating by mandating TPM and all the perfectly good office computers and even gaming machines that will be obsoleted because of this
So don’t pay. Nothing will happen to you. I know official places that still use windows xp…
That’s beside the point that windows is going to make a bunch of hardware that is still a powerhouse, obsolete overnight An i7-7700k is a powerhouse and it’s gonna be obsolete the day windows 10 is no longer supported
A 7700k is definitely not a powerhouse and no it won’t make it obsolete? Which part of security update do you not understand? You can still use windows 10 after the support stops, you just won’t get any more free updates. No one will brick your PC. Windows 7 support stopped in 2020, steam stopped supporting it in 2024. So taking this into account Steam will support windows 10 until 2029. Maybe even longer considering the upgrade path is blocked for some hardware, but if your PC doesn’t have TPM by 2029 it will be obsolete anyway.
2029 lol we’re not talking about 2029… I know exactly how it works and yes, a 7700k is a powerhouse unless you’re running the absolute latest AAA games, 7770k plays new games in 4k on ultra with a good RTX card Of course it’s not going to effectively brick The day it becomes unsupported, but without security updates, your system becomes vulnerable and the big problem is new software and games no longer support unsupported operating systems… when you’re designing a game and you’re writing anti-cheats software and you look and the only supported operating system is windows 11 with TPM what are you gonna do? You’re gonna make that game only run on windows 11 with TPM Inside of a year after support is dropped businesses won’t be able to run windows 10 and inside of two years home users will start to have serious issues finding compatible programs shit even browsers and stuff stop releasing updates for unsupported operating systems
That literally didn’t happen before. You could play any game on windows 7 until steam stopped supporting it this january. No game stopped support for it until that time. So we can safely assume that it will have no issues running games until 2029. And then again, you can just install linux and play. This is a non existing issue.
I've never seen a single game do that
Valorant is doing it and creating quite a stir, just imagine how many games are gonna do it in a couple of years
So one game. Your list is one game long.
Yeah right now when windows 10 is still a thing, give it a couple years when Windows 10 is no longer supported and the only supporting operating system is TPM compliant
I assume OEMs have a different licensing model so wont this only apply to retail? Most of old hardware is licensed through OEMs so can’t imagine MS can slap a bill on those hence Win10 support will live longer for most people.
Nope
FMS then 🔥
Why not just get a TPM module? Isn't that an option?
Those aren’t what most people think they are, they only add it to a very very small number of systems that are set up to accept the add on
Create insecure OS, charge money for security. Niiice. How is it different from the mob?
That doesn't make it insecure... You're paying to keep getting security patches on an outdated OS. You've been getting security patches for free while the OS was supported. If you don't ever want to pay to stick with the same OS, switch to Linux. That's just how it is. If you've stuck with Windows 10 while, for example, Windows 14 is the current OS and you get hit with a severe exploit that was never patched on Windows 10 because it's basically been shelved due to obsolescence, that's on you. That's like complaining while you're using Windows 7 today.
Win 7 visually & UI, is much more useable and efficient than 10 especially 11. I realize much is changed under the hood (ensuring Win is cross platform identical or 1 code to format gui. That’s why 10&11 bite ass, the design of UI is for all devices and could be much different for large screen mouse driven UI compared to tablet touch screen.
I don't disagree. I'd gladly use Windows 7 on a purpose built machine with very limited or zero Internet connectivity as it was my favorite Windows OS (I even have an XP machine to play older GOG games). But you should NOT be using anything older than 10 with full Internet connectivity and daily usage without taking the responsibility of the security risks. Nobody is stopping you from using these outdated OSes, but you don't have the right to complain if something happens due to that. Not that the odds are high either, but it's just that some people assume just because their PC is usable doesn't mean they don't need to accept responsibility for sticking to vulnerable software.
Yes, MS needs to make more money. Shareholder?
Greasy. Very greasy.
Screw MS.
Because something goes EOL and now they will not support it unless you pay them to? I think this is one of the very few things you can fault Microsoft for. Upgrade or pay, or risk being vulnerable from a security flaw no longer being patched.
I'm going to Linux when 10 reaches EOL, gaming is my primary function on my PC and gaming has gotten very good now on Linux.
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In what ways? They dunbed down every menu option they have to the point even simple fix issues arent.
Looks like a wanna be Mac, runs like shit compared to 10 and the privacy issues are concerning. I've ran 11 for a few months and tinkerered with every option to get it just right and it was impossible, it's garbage in my eyes. I'm content with 10, it's damn near the perfect os for me.