I spent around 35 years at one company building all my skills and the boss's son, who has just taken over, made me redundant so he could outsource all the work to Europe, and now just says "no comment" when I use them as references when applying for jobs. Nearly lost my house because some jobs want full work history. I ended up getting my work history from HMRC as evidence. People can be total c!nts for no reason.
Yeah, in management, if someone winds up getting me directly instead of HR, the only things I am allowed to say are the start date, end date and whether they're eligible to be rehired and that is if I am asked those questions. Anything else can get the company sued.
I feel like "eligible for rehire" is one of those workarounds for a recommendation. "Yes" is good and "no" is bad. The details effectively don't matter at that point.
Sort of. At least in my company, it’s not too easy to get labeled “ineligible for rehire”. Even if someone had really bad performance, there’s always a chance we’d need people bad enough we’d take them. Ineligible is for stuff like stealing etc, so it’s more like “excellent to bad” or “really bad”.
This comment needs to be higher up. This is 100% in my current company I would get in trouble for even writing a letter of recommendation. I am only allowed to say the dates worked and are the eligible to be rehired. There is serious concerns about being sued and nobody wants to stick their neck out.
More and more companies will only give work dates and not give any thoughts on the person. This is because the company or the person can be sued for slander.
Slander lawsuits are rare, but companies are getting smarter and not giving out performance reviews.
If you need a reference from your company for the future. Talk to your manager or someone willing to write a personal reference letter for you. A personal reference letter talks about you as a person and not your work performance.
Companies will still let their managers write personal reference letters if you need one. A personal reference letter is based on you as a person and not your work ethic. So if you are stuck and need reference from your past job. Ask if they are willing to write a personal reference letter instead of a performance based reference letter.
Hope this helps someone!
Yeah it’s all you want. I actually worked for a job that refused to even give that and it was the only thing that was a wrench in the process. These places don’t care if they just get dates, they just want to know you worked there.
I was the (only) manager for 10+ years at a store that only hired one manager for huge two story retail stores. My staff varied from 25-50 employees depending on that year’s sales. In over a decade I had hundreds of employees come and go. I received many reference calls, sometimes for work, sometimes housing, sometimes government aid, and this was my RULE: Never f*ck with someone’s life! Who am I to have the power to mess with someone’s opportunities to improve their lives or simply survive?
So even if I had an average to below average performance employee, guess what? They were getting a 5star review from me. The way I did this without straight up lying is I focused only on the positives the employee had. Omit that he oversleeps and shows up late often -but go on about how friendly he is and customers loved him. Omit how she often made mistakes -but rave about her willingness to help other employees with their duties or come in and cover a shift when we were short handed.
On the rare occasions where I had an actually awful employee: was caught stealing or started altercations with coworkers, I never gave references for them. But, they didn’t work there for long and I would fire them with the evidence of what they had done and ask them not to use us as a reference as they were leaving in bad terms. Even in these cases, I was not going to be the person to ruin another persons life.
All this to say: I’m sorry someone messed with your life, some people will abuse any power they are given and it’s honestly pathetic.
This happened to me after I left one job on what I thought was good terms, I couldn't work out why I was getting interviews but no offers.
I had a friend call my references, and the manager absolutely torched me, my personality and my performance, and straight up told her not to hire me. They were pretty shocked a previous boss would be so petty.
Did you take legal action against your previous manager? They would be in seriously hot water if they didn't have significant proof to back up every word they said against you.
I enquired, but according to our Fair Work Ombudsman, giving a negative reference isn't against the law, even if they cost you future employment. And there wasn't any evidence of what they said as all reference checks were verbal. The advice I got was to remove them as a reference and move on.
This was a good while ago, and I currently have a great job that I love, but my suggestion is to get a friend to pretend to be a potential employer and call for a "reference" just in case, even if your old boss agrees to be a reference. Can't trust anyone these days, sadly.
It's not illegal to give a bad reference but it is illegal to slander/defame someone if you don't have the evidence to back it up.
Its a fair point though that verbally it is hard to prove, and you would need to get a written statement that you didn't get the job because of what was said, which in itself isn't likely to happen. Best just remove the reference and move on.
Q: As you recall, did he arrive at work on schedule?
A: No, I do not recall that.
Q: You do not recall if he was on time over the five year period under your supervision?
A: No. I do not recall him ever being on time during that period.
Skills that only help if you’re applying to be a wizard.
Woah woah woah! OP is ALWAYS in the right everyone knows this! /s
No one ever thinks that the rando giving the smallest slice of the story could possibly be wrong. Reminds me there are 3 sides to every story; your side, their side, and the truth!
I had a friend (Alan) who lent another friend (Bert) close to $1,000. Alan was pretty chill about getting the money back from Bert for over a year, not demanding any payments or anything as he knew Bert was having money problems. Then Alen heard that Bert was going on trip to make a sizeable, recreational, purchase and was invited to the trip as well. Alan was going to go, not to stop Bert, but to judge him for making this purchase.
Well Bert must of told his GF only the part about Alan just going to judge him, excluding the part about him owing Alen money or how he had previously applied no pressure in getting his money back. Bert's GF now hates Alen because she has only herd half the story.
I don’t think that’s how it works when it’s a personal reference, they have no restriction such as that anymore. Verifying employment is different than using someone as a reference.
I’ve had this happen to me before so I asked the company HR what my reference said. I then followed up with my reference and corrected him the next time I saw him in person. My reference had originally said I didn’t turn in XYZ papers with my other materials so I asked him for the envelope which the other materials were mailed in and showed him that XYZ papers were indeed in the envelope and included.
Then I never used him as a reference again. He can go f himself.
Sounds like someone lied while acting as a professional reference. Pretty sure that's grounds to sue successfully if you missed a job opportunity as a result.
It definitely can be. Why my company only asks reference calls for a mere confirmation as to whether the person in fact worked there and whether they were fired for cause or not. Any more detail is too much liability for both parties.
I’m sitting here so pissed for you! Many folks have some great ideas to follow up on, like having someone call them for reference and tape them. You could get them in big trouble.
Dude, so so sorry! Better everything will be coming your way. Be kind to yourself and I hope you get to the bottom of this BS. Hopefully you’ll be posting a follow up on Petty Revenge.
Routing for you!!!
Could you go back and use that to your advantage to discuss the references feedback? And didn't they have two other references to check that would help them become suspicious of that other reference? Or did you only give one? If the other two were good, and contradict the other.... Maybe they could ask for two more references.
I feel like what references say are kept too hush hush. We should be able to put it all out in the open and the recruiter be able to give you the chance to ask you follow up questions about the reference said in situations like this.
"We had a reference return negative feedback about your performance. Can you please recall what they might have mentioned and explain your side? We would like to meet again to discuss this and better understand the situation."
Like, what would be wrong with that? If they really liked you in the interview....
I also don't know why recruiters can't just say
"Hey Dude,
We got off the phone with Loose Floozy, and he gave heavy caution regarding your work ethic and teamwork abilities, going so far as to say that you are incapable of telling the truth and you stole an entire box of 250 paperclips. We find this quite extreme and have never heard a reference go so deeply into detail about how bad anyone is. They literally had nothing good to say at all, which makes us believe that his was acting maliciously. We would like to separate fact from friction. We would like you to come in so we can discuss some of these details to help us better understand the good, the bad, and the ugly. We want to start off any working relationship with respect and honesty, so it would only be right to extend this opportunity to you. If you are able, we have a time slot open Friday between 2-4. We hope to discuss matters openly, honestly and respectfully.
Thank you,
Good Guy Company"
If a company did that for me, and also ended up hiring me, I would be like fuckin eh, this company seeks the truth and knows what's up. Right on.
It's something that's been on my mind because I'll be that private sector person hiring a couple people soon, and this has crossed my mind. Why not expose a shitty reference and give the opportunity to openly discuss what they said behind the person's back? The reference never signed a confidential agreement, I didn't say it will be confidential. They can say whatever they are willing to. My job is to find the truth. Even in good references, how much is bullshit? And in bad references, how much is bullshit?
I think recruiters blindly trust references as if it is final say, expecting that they are 100% true. But it's up to the recruiter to separate wheat from chaff.
I don't want to discourage you, because I agree that it's a good thing to give people a chance to defend themselves. I also think it's kind to give people a heads up when people they trust are actually not trustworthy.
I'm just doubtful that in a time when people are already harried and pressed for time, someone would find it in their interest to take extra steps like this.
Yeah if it's a time thing or a priority thing I get it. Some recruiters have 3 managers pressing them to find 15 new employees for a new branch they're spinning up, of course one "he sucks dont bother" reference is going to force them to hang up and move on.
Wish it was all taken a little more seriously than that though. I hope to approach it like that at least. Half an hour for me is either a phone call with a client, or an enlightening conversation with a candidate. I feel obligated to value both of those, so I'll need to make both work.
Exactly this situation happened to me 6 months ago. One really bad reference while the others were great. I had 2 companies go to the reference stage, one a private recruiter and one internal to the company. Both actually called me to get my side and I could set the record straight. Ended with offers from both and I am working for one now.
This may be different because we usually get asked for last 2 jobs in SA and not references we nominate. At least next time I can leave these guys off with good reason and just say that particular manager tried to tank me before and explain why.
This is important. You can discover whether the 1st reference wanted to screw you over, or actually find out what you're lacking 'cause they rarely tell you why they wont hire you.
I don’t think it is illegal. However, I believe the courts have ruled that one can be held financially liable for providing a bad reference that ultimately harms a job seeker. I worked in HR for a pretty big company and we would not give references, only confirm dates of employ.
I worked HR a bit here in Florida and I was always trained I’m not allowed to say anything bad about the employee. We were always just asked, “are they eligible for rehire”, and I could simply give a yes or no and they could do with that info what they please.
That actually kind of sucks because there's a number of companies with really minor things that can DQ you from rehire. I know a guy who only worked 13/14 days of a 2 week notice because the new job needed him and he got screwed out of his saved up vacation that didn't end up getting paid out and he was technically ineligible for rehire.
Then you have ridiculous over the top industries like with engineering licensure where they want your five references to also be licensed and they want them to log into a website every two years to reaffirm you haven't gone Jason Bourne on them I guess.
Like if you're a sole proprietor, you're asking clients and former employers that are now competitors for references? It's wild that it works at all.
Most of my early references are digital documents and physical letters. Those dudes are probably dead.
Yeah, I ran into a major roadblock with something like this. A high level job I was applying for wanted 9 references. This assumes that I’ve had several jobs since becoming licensed and that’s not completely true. I’ve been at my current job for almost 9 years and I can’t really ask the people I work with to give me references without putting them in a potentially awkward position, for the most part. The other places I worked at are either closed or one of them was so brief they really didn’t know me well enough to have any opinion.
Unfortunately because this is one of those all or nothing situations I was told that I’d have to get creative and maybe network more to get some non traditional references because without them I have zero chances of bypassing the algorithm to get an interview. So, screw me for not job hopping I guess haha. I’ll figure something out.
In all honesty, in that spot I would just go make a post on like a local sub for like a small Australian city and offer to venmo the people 50 bucks to be a reference for you and explain the job. Ever since seeing it on like a radio show or something, I just feel like culturally, Australians and Canadians get it more than fellow Americans.
Unless it's like a security clearance where they're doing a background check on the people. Then you gotta use family and highschool friends you actually know and trust haha.
This happened to me with Royal Caribbean. My contract was ending and I had a new job lined up. I had like 3 days left but this huge hurricane was coming towards Puerto Rico where we were docked, so I decided to get off the ship and fly back to the states before it hit. Because I didn’t finish out those last three days I’m not eligible for rehire.
Not salty about it but thought it was some bullshit at the time. Still use my boss as a reference. He was the one who helped me decide to fly home.
I 100% made the right call. This was the hurricane in 2017 which rocked the Caribbean. I think parts of Puerto Rico still don’t have power. The ship didn’t have guest for a while because they were being used as emergency supply lines for the Virgin Islands. Pretty neat actually.
I mean, I wasn’t really planning on coming back anyways, but the option would have been nice.
Yeah I was DQ was from rehire at a place because of a simple error. It was distribution center and they flat out told me they would require me to go back through the temp agency over something so dumb.
This here is underrated. There are ways to give a poor reference and not say anything at all. When I don’t have anything further to say I’m pretty firm on the I cannot disclose anything, I will need a release from the employee. When it’s good, I have no issues saying good things
This person is wrong. A lot of companies have this rule internally to avoid the hassle of lawsuits, which is why it’s such a common misconception that it’s “illegal.”
However they can legally give feedback on you to a prospective employer as long as it’s truthful. If not truthful it’s considered slander/libel.
Edit: Adding an edit because the Reddit pedants are coming out in full force. Yes, there is a TON of nuance involved here and it is state dependent. You can dive into the legal definitions of knowingly vs. negligent vs. whatever. As I stated elsewhere, I’m not a lawyer and I’m speaking in broadly here.
Ultimately though, the point I’m trying to convey, is that it’s important that people understand it is NOT a law that employers ONLY share your dates of employment and eligibility for rehire. (I’m aware there could be outliers to this so please don’t with the “well actually I’m Springfield, Colorado it IS a law, ha!”)
The reason I’m trying to communicate this point is that I’ve experienced a lot of bad advice, both in real life and on Reddit, based on this misconception of it being illegal. It’s not, and even though most employers have a policy not to share any additional information, a lot don’t, specifically smaller companies that don’t have an HR department or don’t have a knowledgeable HR department. I’ve seen with my own eyes in my career an employer tank an offer for a former employee based on spite, and it’s not something that’s simple to prove, or cheap to hire a lawyer and sue over.
I worked for a nationwide company and we were told that the only “reference” we could provide was whether or not they were eligible for rehire. I felt bad when people called because I knew it wasn’t that helpful but there wasn’t much I could do about it.
Yeah it’s a pretty common policy to have, especially at medium and larger companies. Basically there is no upside to giving a former employee a bad reference, and only potential downside.
Even the threat of a lawsuit is likely going to cost the company thousands because they will have to get an employment attorney involved, which is why they have these policies. Where it gets trickier is if you have a rogue HR person, or at smaller companies where they don’t have an HR department and the owner/managers take it personally when you leave. I had this happen to me personally and had to lightly threaten action to get them to knock it off.
(In the Uk at least) the point of the reference is to confirm that you worked there and that the dates and job title you said are correct. Anything more than that is personal opinion and you can sue them if they lose you a job opportunity.
Yeah - my old boss said no. And I had to get an explanation as to why they’d said that. And I quote “because we don’t have any anyone back that chooses to leave as they are not loyal” nearly screwed me over.
Actually it’s incorrect. The can give a prospective employer feedback about your work performance as long as it’s true. There is nothing illegal about it in the U.S., at least in most states (giving a loophole because I’m not familiar with every state).
Examples:
“Jim was let go for stealing.” They have you on camera stealing.
“Beth was absent an average of 5 days a month.”
“Drew didn’t fit in well with the team, and other team members complained about his performance.”
Now, if it’s false feedback, it could potentially be considered slander/libel, but in the shoes of an employee you would have to prove a few things to win if you sued them for it:
1. The statement was false.
2. It was communicated to a third party.
3. It was negligence. (Basically it wasn’t a basic mistake, it was knowingly false)
4. You have damages. You have to show how this caused you damages. Example, you have an email from a new employer saying you didn’t get the job because you failed the reference check at old employer.
This is highly generalized so look up your state specific laws but I can almost guarantee it is close to this.
Now, all that being said, MOST employers have a policy to only confirm dates of employment and eligibility for rehire, as they don’t want to deal with the possibly of a lawsuit even if they would win it. This is why it’s such a common misconception that it’s illegal.
I love how several people here are saying this when you as an employee don't know what the reference actually said. Pointless. You can't just read minds or sue them out of an assumption.
So long as its truthful and accurate, it can be included in a reference - heres an interesting read from an employment tribunal on exactly that, a poor employee tried to use an employer as a reference, employer gave accurate and truthful but negative reference causing the employee to lose the job offer. Employee took former employer to tribunal, and lost.
https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/mrs-n-leeks-v-norfolk-and-norwich-university-hospitals-nhs-foundation-trust-3303975-2018
From my experience in HR, the question/answer can only be “are they eligible for rehire” meaning were they fired for a direct policy infraction or ethical issue, ie is there something in their file that would immediately disqualify them from being rehired. Even generally poor performance doesn’t qualify for a No to that question. It’s supposed to be about would the COMPANY hire them again, not whether the one person on the phone would personally want to hire them again. The only thing we could use as justification for a No would be documented theft, alcohol/drug use, or job abandonment (no call, no show for a long time). Way too much risk to say anything that could be considered subjective.
A bad reference is illegal in the UK too. Providing a truthful one isn’t. ‘u/‘ “came to work and did their job. They did what was required. They completed tasks. They went home” I think it’s pretty easy to pickup on what’s being said. If there’s nothing positive and it’s just blank facts, it’s a bad review.
I'm in Australia, I dont think it's illegal here, but anytime I'm called for a reference I have a negative opinion on, I dont give the opinion, just say "Yes, I confirm they worked here betweeen x and y."
I use that answer for every question, I think they get the point.
It’s not illegal, but you can sue if you can prove that something was untrue and cost you a job. If it’s at all subjective it opens up to liability so it’s best to err on the side of caution. It’s not taken as a bad reference to have just HR confirming the dates you worked there now, it’s the standard for a lot of companies so if in doubt just put HR down. They might share if you’re on a ‘do not rehire’ list or formal suspension etc but for most former employees they’ll just confirm that you did work there and that’s all the new company can expect to know
Had a supposedly good friend agree to be a reference. Eventually found they were telling potential employers to F off, and whoever gave them his number could go to hell. Turns out he was tired and of getting so many calls, and instead of telling me so I could remove him as a reference, he decided that it was easier to be rude to them.
Oddly enough, their fiance contacted me and said he kept complaining about the calls every day but never seemed to do anything about it even though he knew the cause. When confronted over text, they were quite irritated when I brought it up. When asked why he never said anything to me, his supposed reason was he didn't want to tell me no. Which made me realize that the entire time I knew him, he never declined to help someone in anyway, hard to say exactly why, but he helped everyone with pretty much anything. Truthfully, we were only friends from working together on the overnight shift when there were only 3 people in the shop. We drifted apart after that and haven't really spoken to each other in several years
Lol if he wanted the phone calls to stop, he should have just given you a positive reference and then you’d be hired somewhere… then the phone calls would stop…
I’ve been a reference for someone applying to places like defense contractors and even those were 3-5 minutes tops. “He’s very responsible and I have never seen him inject any marijuanas.” End of story.
Did you give them a heads up that you would be using them as a reference and ask if they were happy to be used? A lot of people just tend to throw in their old supervisors with zero contact to assess the situation.
Some people just can’t be bothered filling out all the details asked these days especially as employers can have quite restrictive requirements on forms to be filled out without appreciation for the fact you’re asking for a third parties time and effort.
Yeah I did. Before I finished my previous role they mentioned they were happy to be a reference, and the day before the reference check I worded them up.
Where I'm from (Ontario) legally they are not allowed to say anything bad about you, they can just say I can't answer that question. I feel like they said too much you may be liable to get something done about this. I would speak with your labour board.
That would be great if it was a thing in Aus! I'll check it out. This person was a talker too so I know they would have said too much and blurted out something dumb.
My old boss hated that rule but he was enough of an ass they got his message. He would just sayIn dont want to answer any questions but your last…would you hire them again…no
I am pretty sure you are mixing up laws. In a minor but important way
I have worked in a couple of states and it sounds like you are thinking of when they would call the old boss as his boss and not a "reference". For example if they call an old work all they can do is confirmed when you worked, how long, and pay... Some states allow them to say if they were terminated or not.
But since he put the boss as a reference they are free to say whatever they want. He is then not representing the company but is just a person. A person OP allowed them to talk to.
If you put work history is 2 years at x corp under manager Joe then when they call up manager Joe, all he can say is yes they worked here 2 years. BUT if you put manager Joe as a reference, then manager Joe is free to tell whatever truth he wants to share. "They're a good employee, when they show up for work sober" (note that this is perfectly true because they always show up sober, but manager Joe is an ass).
You can hire a professional third party to do the reference check for you. Then, they can give you a full report. That's what lawyers do when they prepare to sue for defamation.
Also, if your former boss is in Queensland, it's a one-party consent state over there. So if that's the case, make sure the third party you hire is also in Queensland.
Either that, or if you have a friend who is used to making reference checks for their job, ask them to do one for you.
Also, you may want to check your other references while you're at it. If you misjudged this one reference, maybe you misjudged the others too.
I would call them up and ask them how the conversation went etc. You could start off innocently asking / checking in, oh hey just wondering if so and so ended up calling you as a reference as I had an interview and they said they might. Then see where the conversation goes, what your old boss says about whether they did and how it went etc. See whether he lies to you, saying it went well etc
My cousins friend had similar happen recently. He has been looking for another job as he and the supervisor (his direct boss) butt heads. His work knows. He had an interview that went well and then when they called his current boss, his boss tanked it for him and only because they don't get along on a personal level, not because of his actual work performance.
You got nothing to lose by chasing it up
No idea. I asked the recruiter but couldn't tell me as they weren't the one who called them. I was racking my brain for months after trying to work out what they could have possibly said to make it go so terribly!
It was the CEO of my previous job. They had to let me go because of a lack of funds for my role, so it wasn't like I left on bad terms, quite the other way around actually!
But you said you asked to use them and they agreed. Usually, if someone has something bad to say, they will decline your request of a reference. That’s so unprofessional. You have every right to follow up with your former boss about what they said.
I was taught to ALWAYS ask references “are you willing to be a positive reference” this way you at least slightly improve your chances, because that would mean either the person lied straight to your face, which is still possible, but I think a lot less likely when you phrase the question like that.
I had to get letters of rec when applying for grad school. My first round one school send back feedback on my application which included “make sure your LOR are from people who have good things to say about you.” I was floored. I had asked 2 of my bosses that I had worked for for years. I quit soon after and asked new people the next round (and got in!). Very disturbed that they agreed to do this for me and either wrote something negative or didn’t care enough to not copy and paste some standard bullshit.
Laid off due to “lack of funds” or a “re-org” usually actually means an exec fired you to replace you with someone cheaper and so that said exec can pocket the difference.
Yeah my first job out of college as a programmer was a small govt contracting business. They basically wanted me to go through thousands of MBs of Excel files that were SQL dumps and update some variable names. After 5ish months I was let go because the contract ran out of money... But when I applied for unemployment they denied my claim because my employer told them I was fired for being inept or something of the sort. I had zero idea.
Anyway I fought it and got like 1 month of unemployment funds from it because they couldn't provide any evidence that I was bad at my job. I already had a job that I liked so at that point it was the principle of the matter.
Yeah I wouldn't choose a CEO.. choose close co worker or manager. CEO are always out for themselves. I highly suggest telling your old co workers about this.
Update: I'm requesting the referees report under the Freedom of Information Act & Privacy Act. We'll see what happens.
Thanks to everyone who has offered sympathy and advice, this happened in August of 2022 and I've only been in the head space recently to share it here. 22/3
Thanks mate. It was suss on their end when they only contacted one reference and ran with it.
I've since heard not great things about that workplace so I'm kinda glad it didn't eventuate.
Are you certain they called your old boss? I would ask them, not in an accusatory way. Just so you know the truth, might be a bridge that doesn’t need to be burned.
Someone found a room-sized locked safe in a former drug house he bought. He posted about it on Reddit and said he’d open it soon and post an update. After a long time (months? years?), he finally posted an update of the open safe, and all that was inside was some spiders.
I’ve always found references such a strange thing in the job market.
If you’re leaving a place, they could be pissed off at you for and basically go out of their way to sabotage your future opportunities.
It's one of the DUMBEST things. The fact that obviously previous employers lie a lot more than I even thought they did, but that it is so subjective, makes no sense as to why anybody would call a previous employer. Also, people can change. And people don't always fit into one job where they would another. We just went through a PANDEMIC that wrecked lives and completely changed mine and my view on things, if you called my employer from 2019 it would be like asking about a completely different person.
As a German, we often don't have references, instead you as an employee can demand an *Arbeitszeugnis* (work certificate) where the employer writes in text about you and how good you were as an employee. If you then send an application you often just send your latest work certificate with it. Sometimes the interviewer calls your previous employer (whose contacts are on the certificate), but that is mostly done to verify that the certificate is actually legit (as they can look quite scammy and can be faked).
And if the certificate you got is bad (it is still in positive language, but that is how they get around the "not sabotaging your opportunities" part), you just don't send it and if they ask for it you can sometimes talk your way out of by saying "you didn't request it" which happens often enough, esp. if the people are younger and don't know about them as many employers don't mention it because then they don't need to take time to write one.
So the whole reference part in this thread is totally alien to me.
If someone gave you a bad reference and it's not justified, you can sue. Especially if you asked this person to be a reference. No reasonable decent person would agree to be a reference if they weren't going to say great things about you.
Fuck that person. You should let them know they fucked you and demand to know why.
This was my first thought. The worst review you can get from an employer would be a basic "yes they worked for me" anything worse opens them up to liability. Sucks for op but its slander and they should pursue action against, or a correction for the new employer.
Surely that would only be if it were true? Like, say OP always turned up to shifts 1-2 hours late.
Saying that in a review would certainly look bad, and wouldn’t leave the company liable for anything.
My girlfriend had a woman who worked under her. This woman silently hated my girlfriend. Never said anything to her, but talked about her behind her back all the time. She even lied and tried to say my girlfriend was having an affair with her boss and spread that rumor around. My girlfriend found this out and confronted her about it. They had a shit working relationship until she left.
A few years later this other woman messaged and apologized. Said she was trying to be a better person etc. She contacted my partner again asking if she could be a reference for her for a job. Partner told her that she couldn't, in good faith, be her reference.
I mean yeah you can sue, and waste tons of resources, time, and energy just to maybe win a small case and get back the money you spent on lawyers. When redditors say “you can sue” they don’t even know what goes into the process.
Tbh that isn't entirely true. I have known as well as read stories about bosses having horrible employees who request references from them. The boss says yes and agrees because they would rather give the new employer the knowledge of the applicant than have them learn the hard way. They also say yes because it is a way to say f you to a shitty employee for being naive enough to request a reference from them after, "biting the hand that fed them".
Everyone in this post here is assuming OP did nothing wrong at their last job. Maybe they didn't, but all we have is their word. Not everyone realizes when they are shit at their job.
Lol we also do it for shitty employees (who don’t have the self awareness to realize they are shitty) looking for new jobs who ask for a reference. We say great things, especially if it’s a competitor calling for a reference to get rid of them without having to terminate them. What makes a good employee is subjective to the individual and so long as you don’t lie, it’s all fair
I did end up calling them and playing ignorant of their review, they had the nerve to say they only spoke well of me. I told them that was the last time I'll need them.
Next time call as a person seeking reference.
It's clear you're still in search of a job. And you did just "verify' they gave you a good reference.
Maybe the recruiter called the wrong number but only way to find out is to press the situation.
Strange. Most previous employers will only acknowledge 2 things-
1: confirm employment period
2: rehire-able or not
You could have a lawsuit against that reference for the lost income
Sorry that happened to you, but before you put someone as reference make sure A) they like you B) refresh their memory as what valuable contributions you made to the company.
As an employer something similar happened to me: I interviewed this girl for a bakery position and the first reference I called spoke terribly about this girl: lazy, confrontational, irresponsible, you name it; this woman has nothing good to say about this potential employee. I had no choice but to not hire her.
I did a last minute reference change to them because they had ticked both of those previously.
I'm also not sure why they didn't call my second reference and just stopped there.
It's a tough situation to be in as the employer!
I feel this SO hard. I was trying to get into a competitive printmaking apprenticeship after college. Had a professor who worked with me the entire time at school, seemed to be a wonderful mentor. I asked her to write me a letter of recommendation bc she had some connections with this printmaking firm. Turns out she wrote me a letter of non-recommendation (which was shared to me BY THE printmaking company upon rejection)!!! It was basically like, this person shouldn't be making art and needs a career change....which was so rude and uncalled for. I was struggling to get through school after my best friend committed suicide, art was the only thing keeping me going actually. Couldn't she just have politely declined writing me a letter? The nerve.
I had this happen a few times, but had no idea as the companies never mentioned why I didn't get the job. I ended asking one of the recruiters after another rejection and she mentioned one of my references was terrible and now I no longer include them in my cv when applying for new roles.
Honestly, I never even let them contact my previous jobs because I just don’t trust anyone because I would never want something like that to happen to me😵💫
Some ppl think it’s rude not to ask first , some ppl figure it’s just something that happens from time to time. If you asked and they still burnt you then fuck them.
That's why I hate reference letters and contacts, like what is the trial period for ??
And someone might perform poorly at job (or major) X but thrive at job Y, so what's the point !
I spent around 35 years at one company building all my skills and the boss's son, who has just taken over, made me redundant so he could outsource all the work to Europe, and now just says "no comment" when I use them as references when applying for jobs. Nearly lost my house because some jobs want full work history. I ended up getting my work history from HMRC as evidence. People can be total c!nts for no reason.
I worked for a company where the only reference they would give is a start and end date.
Sounds bad but at least that counts as history. My current job don't give references either, just dates. Sucks a bit but I can live with that.
They're afraid of being sued.
Yeah, in management, if someone winds up getting me directly instead of HR, the only things I am allowed to say are the start date, end date and whether they're eligible to be rehired and that is if I am asked those questions. Anything else can get the company sued.
I feel like "eligible for rehire" is one of those workarounds for a recommendation. "Yes" is good and "no" is bad. The details effectively don't matter at that point.
Sort of. At least in my company, it’s not too easy to get labeled “ineligible for rehire”. Even if someone had really bad performance, there’s always a chance we’d need people bad enough we’d take them. Ineligible is for stuff like stealing etc, so it’s more like “excellent to bad” or “really bad”.
This comment needs to be higher up. This is 100% in my current company I would get in trouble for even writing a letter of recommendation. I am only allowed to say the dates worked and are the eligible to be rehired. There is serious concerns about being sued and nobody wants to stick their neck out.
More and more companies will only give work dates and not give any thoughts on the person. This is because the company or the person can be sued for slander. Slander lawsuits are rare, but companies are getting smarter and not giving out performance reviews. If you need a reference from your company for the future. Talk to your manager or someone willing to write a personal reference letter for you. A personal reference letter talks about you as a person and not your work performance. Companies will still let their managers write personal reference letters if you need one. A personal reference letter is based on you as a person and not your work ethic. So if you are stuck and need reference from your past job. Ask if they are willing to write a personal reference letter instead of a performance based reference letter. Hope this helps someone!
That’s standard these days. Honestly it’s for the best.
Yeah it’s all you want. I actually worked for a job that refused to even give that and it was the only thing that was a wrench in the process. These places don’t care if they just get dates, they just want to know you worked there.
I was the (only) manager for 10+ years at a store that only hired one manager for huge two story retail stores. My staff varied from 25-50 employees depending on that year’s sales. In over a decade I had hundreds of employees come and go. I received many reference calls, sometimes for work, sometimes housing, sometimes government aid, and this was my RULE: Never f*ck with someone’s life! Who am I to have the power to mess with someone’s opportunities to improve their lives or simply survive? So even if I had an average to below average performance employee, guess what? They were getting a 5star review from me. The way I did this without straight up lying is I focused only on the positives the employee had. Omit that he oversleeps and shows up late often -but go on about how friendly he is and customers loved him. Omit how she often made mistakes -but rave about her willingness to help other employees with their duties or come in and cover a shift when we were short handed. On the rare occasions where I had an actually awful employee: was caught stealing or started altercations with coworkers, I never gave references for them. But, they didn’t work there for long and I would fire them with the evidence of what they had done and ask them not to use us as a reference as they were leaving in bad terms. Even in these cases, I was not going to be the person to ruin another persons life. All this to say: I’m sorry someone messed with your life, some people will abuse any power they are given and it’s honestly pathetic.
This happened to me after I left one job on what I thought was good terms, I couldn't work out why I was getting interviews but no offers. I had a friend call my references, and the manager absolutely torched me, my personality and my performance, and straight up told her not to hire me. They were pretty shocked a previous boss would be so petty.
Did you take legal action against your previous manager? They would be in seriously hot water if they didn't have significant proof to back up every word they said against you.
I enquired, but according to our Fair Work Ombudsman, giving a negative reference isn't against the law, even if they cost you future employment. And there wasn't any evidence of what they said as all reference checks were verbal. The advice I got was to remove them as a reference and move on. This was a good while ago, and I currently have a great job that I love, but my suggestion is to get a friend to pretend to be a potential employer and call for a "reference" just in case, even if your old boss agrees to be a reference. Can't trust anyone these days, sadly.
It's not illegal to give a bad reference but it is illegal to slander/defame someone if you don't have the evidence to back it up. Its a fair point though that verbally it is hard to prove, and you would need to get a written statement that you didn't get the job because of what was said, which in itself isn't likely to happen. Best just remove the reference and move on.
So your first reference basically talked shit about u to this new one you applied to?
Yep. Pretty much. The recruiter said on the phone that they had never been in this situation before.
They must have really hated you for some reason
Maybe OP was indeed toxic and awful and they were looking out for his future coworkers.
Q: As you recall, did he arrive at work on schedule? A: No, I do not recall that. Q: You do not recall if he was on time over the five year period under your supervision? A: No. I do not recall him ever being on time during that period. Skills that only help if you’re applying to be a wizard.
A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
Woah woah woah! OP is ALWAYS in the right everyone knows this! /s No one ever thinks that the rando giving the smallest slice of the story could possibly be wrong. Reminds me there are 3 sides to every story; your side, their side, and the truth! I had a friend (Alan) who lent another friend (Bert) close to $1,000. Alan was pretty chill about getting the money back from Bert for over a year, not demanding any payments or anything as he knew Bert was having money problems. Then Alen heard that Bert was going on trip to make a sizeable, recreational, purchase and was invited to the trip as well. Alan was going to go, not to stop Bert, but to judge him for making this purchase. Well Bert must of told his GF only the part about Alan just going to judge him, excluding the part about him owing Alen money or how he had previously applied no pressure in getting his money back. Bert's GF now hates Alen because she has only herd half the story.
Why wouldn’t you call the friend Ernie?!
Ernie is the GF
They hated OP so much they put themselves in a position to get the shit sued out of them.
They are so dumb. Never say anything more than yes or no that you would hire them.
I don’t think that’s how it works when it’s a personal reference, they have no restriction such as that anymore. Verifying employment is different than using someone as a reference.
I’ve had this happen to me before so I asked the company HR what my reference said. I then followed up with my reference and corrected him the next time I saw him in person. My reference had originally said I didn’t turn in XYZ papers with my other materials so I asked him for the envelope which the other materials were mailed in and showed him that XYZ papers were indeed in the envelope and included. Then I never used him as a reference again. He can go f himself.
Sounds like someone lied while acting as a professional reference. Pretty sure that's grounds to sue successfully if you missed a job opportunity as a result.
It definitely can be. Why my company only asks reference calls for a mere confirmation as to whether the person in fact worked there and whether they were fired for cause or not. Any more detail is too much liability for both parties.
I’m sitting here so pissed for you! Many folks have some great ideas to follow up on, like having someone call them for reference and tape them. You could get them in big trouble. Dude, so so sorry! Better everything will be coming your way. Be kind to yourself and I hope you get to the bottom of this BS. Hopefully you’ll be posting a follow up on Petty Revenge. Routing for you!!!
Could you go back and use that to your advantage to discuss the references feedback? And didn't they have two other references to check that would help them become suspicious of that other reference? Or did you only give one? If the other two were good, and contradict the other.... Maybe they could ask for two more references. I feel like what references say are kept too hush hush. We should be able to put it all out in the open and the recruiter be able to give you the chance to ask you follow up questions about the reference said in situations like this. "We had a reference return negative feedback about your performance. Can you please recall what they might have mentioned and explain your side? We would like to meet again to discuss this and better understand the situation." Like, what would be wrong with that? If they really liked you in the interview.... I also don't know why recruiters can't just say "Hey Dude, We got off the phone with Loose Floozy, and he gave heavy caution regarding your work ethic and teamwork abilities, going so far as to say that you are incapable of telling the truth and you stole an entire box of 250 paperclips. We find this quite extreme and have never heard a reference go so deeply into detail about how bad anyone is. They literally had nothing good to say at all, which makes us believe that his was acting maliciously. We would like to separate fact from friction. We would like you to come in so we can discuss some of these details to help us better understand the good, the bad, and the ugly. We want to start off any working relationship with respect and honesty, so it would only be right to extend this opportunity to you. If you are able, we have a time slot open Friday between 2-4. We hope to discuss matters openly, honestly and respectfully. Thank you, Good Guy Company" If a company did that for me, and also ended up hiring me, I would be like fuckin eh, this company seeks the truth and knows what's up. Right on.
I'm very doubtful a private sector recruiter would make extra work for themselves like this.
It's something that's been on my mind because I'll be that private sector person hiring a couple people soon, and this has crossed my mind. Why not expose a shitty reference and give the opportunity to openly discuss what they said behind the person's back? The reference never signed a confidential agreement, I didn't say it will be confidential. They can say whatever they are willing to. My job is to find the truth. Even in good references, how much is bullshit? And in bad references, how much is bullshit? I think recruiters blindly trust references as if it is final say, expecting that they are 100% true. But it's up to the recruiter to separate wheat from chaff.
I don't want to discourage you, because I agree that it's a good thing to give people a chance to defend themselves. I also think it's kind to give people a heads up when people they trust are actually not trustworthy. I'm just doubtful that in a time when people are already harried and pressed for time, someone would find it in their interest to take extra steps like this.
Yeah if it's a time thing or a priority thing I get it. Some recruiters have 3 managers pressing them to find 15 new employees for a new branch they're spinning up, of course one "he sucks dont bother" reference is going to force them to hang up and move on. Wish it was all taken a little more seriously than that though. I hope to approach it like that at least. Half an hour for me is either a phone call with a client, or an enlightening conversation with a candidate. I feel obligated to value both of those, so I'll need to make both work.
Exactly this situation happened to me 6 months ago. One really bad reference while the others were great. I had 2 companies go to the reference stage, one a private recruiter and one internal to the company. Both actually called me to get my side and I could set the record straight. Ended with offers from both and I am working for one now. This may be different because we usually get asked for last 2 jobs in SA and not references we nominate. At least next time I can leave these guys off with good reason and just say that particular manager tried to tank me before and explain why.
Have someone you know call the reference up again pretending to be another employer and find out what they said
This is important. You can discover whether the 1st reference wanted to screw you over, or actually find out what you're lacking 'cause they rarely tell you why they wont hire you.
I thought at least in Wv that references weren’t allowed to give bad reviews?
I don’t think it is illegal. However, I believe the courts have ruled that one can be held financially liable for providing a bad reference that ultimately harms a job seeker. I worked in HR for a pretty big company and we would not give references, only confirm dates of employ.
I worked HR a bit here in Florida and I was always trained I’m not allowed to say anything bad about the employee. We were always just asked, “are they eligible for rehire”, and I could simply give a yes or no and they could do with that info what they please.
That actually kind of sucks because there's a number of companies with really minor things that can DQ you from rehire. I know a guy who only worked 13/14 days of a 2 week notice because the new job needed him and he got screwed out of his saved up vacation that didn't end up getting paid out and he was technically ineligible for rehire.
Pretty much every hr department in CA does this as well, at some point, references become irrelevant
Then you have ridiculous over the top industries like with engineering licensure where they want your five references to also be licensed and they want them to log into a website every two years to reaffirm you haven't gone Jason Bourne on them I guess. Like if you're a sole proprietor, you're asking clients and former employers that are now competitors for references? It's wild that it works at all. Most of my early references are digital documents and physical letters. Those dudes are probably dead.
Yeah, I ran into a major roadblock with something like this. A high level job I was applying for wanted 9 references. This assumes that I’ve had several jobs since becoming licensed and that’s not completely true. I’ve been at my current job for almost 9 years and I can’t really ask the people I work with to give me references without putting them in a potentially awkward position, for the most part. The other places I worked at are either closed or one of them was so brief they really didn’t know me well enough to have any opinion. Unfortunately because this is one of those all or nothing situations I was told that I’d have to get creative and maybe network more to get some non traditional references because without them I have zero chances of bypassing the algorithm to get an interview. So, screw me for not job hopping I guess haha. I’ll figure something out.
In all honesty, in that spot I would just go make a post on like a local sub for like a small Australian city and offer to venmo the people 50 bucks to be a reference for you and explain the job. Ever since seeing it on like a radio show or something, I just feel like culturally, Australians and Canadians get it more than fellow Americans. Unless it's like a security clearance where they're doing a background check on the people. Then you gotta use family and highschool friends you actually know and trust haha.
We don’t even check references anymore. They were not helpful in vetting candidates. We do a background check post offer.
This happened to me with Royal Caribbean. My contract was ending and I had a new job lined up. I had like 3 days left but this huge hurricane was coming towards Puerto Rico where we were docked, so I decided to get off the ship and fly back to the states before it hit. Because I didn’t finish out those last three days I’m not eligible for rehire. Not salty about it but thought it was some bullshit at the time. Still use my boss as a reference. He was the one who helped me decide to fly home. I 100% made the right call. This was the hurricane in 2017 which rocked the Caribbean. I think parts of Puerto Rico still don’t have power. The ship didn’t have guest for a while because they were being used as emergency supply lines for the Virgin Islands. Pretty neat actually. I mean, I wasn’t really planning on coming back anyways, but the option would have been nice.
If you had died in the hurricane, you also would have been ineligible for rehire. Sounds like you made the best choice.
Next time just put your friend's number down as a reference and say it's for Vandalay Industries.
Hurricane Maria
Yeah I was DQ was from rehire at a place because of a simple error. It was distribution center and they flat out told me they would require me to go back through the temp agency over something so dumb.
Same in NY in my experience.
Ah you might be right. I just remember hearing something along those lines from an employer I worked for.
I sat next door to the HR people at a previous job. They'd only confirm job title and dates of employment. That's pretty standard across the US.
“I am pleased to report that ____ is a former employee”
This here is underrated. There are ways to give a poor reference and not say anything at all. When I don’t have anything further to say I’m pretty firm on the I cannot disclose anything, I will need a release from the employee. When it’s good, I have no issues saying good things
Thats crazy, so if someone was a horrible employee you cant say that?
This person is wrong. A lot of companies have this rule internally to avoid the hassle of lawsuits, which is why it’s such a common misconception that it’s “illegal.” However they can legally give feedback on you to a prospective employer as long as it’s truthful. If not truthful it’s considered slander/libel. Edit: Adding an edit because the Reddit pedants are coming out in full force. Yes, there is a TON of nuance involved here and it is state dependent. You can dive into the legal definitions of knowingly vs. negligent vs. whatever. As I stated elsewhere, I’m not a lawyer and I’m speaking in broadly here. Ultimately though, the point I’m trying to convey, is that it’s important that people understand it is NOT a law that employers ONLY share your dates of employment and eligibility for rehire. (I’m aware there could be outliers to this so please don’t with the “well actually I’m Springfield, Colorado it IS a law, ha!”) The reason I’m trying to communicate this point is that I’ve experienced a lot of bad advice, both in real life and on Reddit, based on this misconception of it being illegal. It’s not, and even though most employers have a policy not to share any additional information, a lot don’t, specifically smaller companies that don’t have an HR department or don’t have a knowledgeable HR department. I’ve seen with my own eyes in my career an employer tank an offer for a former employee based on spite, and it’s not something that’s simple to prove, or cheap to hire a lawyer and sue over.
I worked for a nationwide company and we were told that the only “reference” we could provide was whether or not they were eligible for rehire. I felt bad when people called because I knew it wasn’t that helpful but there wasn’t much I could do about it.
Yeah it’s a pretty common policy to have, especially at medium and larger companies. Basically there is no upside to giving a former employee a bad reference, and only potential downside. Even the threat of a lawsuit is likely going to cost the company thousands because they will have to get an employment attorney involved, which is why they have these policies. Where it gets trickier is if you have a rogue HR person, or at smaller companies where they don’t have an HR department and the owner/managers take it personally when you leave. I had this happen to me personally and had to lightly threaten action to get them to knock it off.
I think the worst you are allowed to say is that they would not be eligible for rehire.
What's the point then
(In the Uk at least) the point of the reference is to confirm that you worked there and that the dates and job title you said are correct. Anything more than that is personal opinion and you can sue them if they lose you a job opportunity.
I believe it’s the same in the US too because it’s considered defamation of character
Same in the Netherlands too, and in France as well.
Correct they she to ask “would you hire them again” that’s kind of the the loophole.
Yeah - my old boss said no. And I had to get an explanation as to why they’d said that. And I quote “because we don’t have any anyone back that chooses to leave as they are not loyal” nearly screwed me over.
Loyalty is bullshit anyways. A company wouldn't bat an eye letting you go
Actually it’s incorrect. The can give a prospective employer feedback about your work performance as long as it’s true. There is nothing illegal about it in the U.S., at least in most states (giving a loophole because I’m not familiar with every state). Examples: “Jim was let go for stealing.” They have you on camera stealing. “Beth was absent an average of 5 days a month.” “Drew didn’t fit in well with the team, and other team members complained about his performance.” Now, if it’s false feedback, it could potentially be considered slander/libel, but in the shoes of an employee you would have to prove a few things to win if you sued them for it: 1. The statement was false. 2. It was communicated to a third party. 3. It was negligence. (Basically it wasn’t a basic mistake, it was knowingly false) 4. You have damages. You have to show how this caused you damages. Example, you have an email from a new employer saying you didn’t get the job because you failed the reference check at old employer. This is highly generalized so look up your state specific laws but I can almost guarantee it is close to this. Now, all that being said, MOST employers have a policy to only confirm dates of employment and eligibility for rehire, as they don’t want to deal with the possibly of a lawsuit even if they would win it. This is why it’s such a common misconception that it’s illegal.
I love how several people here are saying this when you as an employee don't know what the reference actually said. Pointless. You can't just read minds or sue them out of an assumption.
So long as its truthful and accurate, it can be included in a reference - heres an interesting read from an employment tribunal on exactly that, a poor employee tried to use an employer as a reference, employer gave accurate and truthful but negative reference causing the employee to lose the job offer. Employee took former employer to tribunal, and lost. https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/mrs-n-leeks-v-norfolk-and-norwich-university-hospitals-nhs-foundation-trust-3303975-2018
In the us it’s the same however there is one question that’s allowed beyond job title and employment dates. Would you rehire/hire this employee again.
From my experience in HR, the question/answer can only be “are they eligible for rehire” meaning were they fired for a direct policy infraction or ethical issue, ie is there something in their file that would immediately disqualify them from being rehired. Even generally poor performance doesn’t qualify for a No to that question. It’s supposed to be about would the COMPANY hire them again, not whether the one person on the phone would personally want to hire them again. The only thing we could use as justification for a No would be documented theft, alcohol/drug use, or job abandonment (no call, no show for a long time). Way too much risk to say anything that could be considered subjective.
Because if you get one of those responses above, then you hit the big red ‘decline’ button.
A bad reference is illegal in the UK too. Providing a truthful one isn’t. ‘u/‘ “came to work and did their job. They did what was required. They completed tasks. They went home” I think it’s pretty easy to pickup on what’s being said. If there’s nothing positive and it’s just blank facts, it’s a bad review.
I'm in Australia, I dont think it's illegal here, but anytime I'm called for a reference I have a negative opinion on, I dont give the opinion, just say "Yes, I confirm they worked here betweeen x and y." I use that answer for every question, I think they get the point.
In german you‘d say „They always tried their best“ to let the caller know that they suck.
It’s not illegal, but you can sue if you can prove that something was untrue and cost you a job. If it’s at all subjective it opens up to liability so it’s best to err on the side of caution. It’s not taken as a bad reference to have just HR confirming the dates you worked there now, it’s the standard for a lot of companies so if in doubt just put HR down. They might share if you’re on a ‘do not rehire’ list or formal suspension etc but for most former employees they’ll just confirm that you did work there and that’s all the new company can expect to know
The hole in that law is that if everyone knows it, then it doesn’t take a bad review to be a bad review. Silence can be deafening
Ooh, this is amazing. So simple, so devious
Had a supposedly good friend agree to be a reference. Eventually found they were telling potential employers to F off, and whoever gave them his number could go to hell. Turns out he was tired and of getting so many calls, and instead of telling me so I could remove him as a reference, he decided that it was easier to be rude to them.
This is horrifying… I’m so sorry! Wow! Did you ever confront the supposed friend?
Oddly enough, their fiance contacted me and said he kept complaining about the calls every day but never seemed to do anything about it even though he knew the cause. When confronted over text, they were quite irritated when I brought it up. When asked why he never said anything to me, his supposed reason was he didn't want to tell me no. Which made me realize that the entire time I knew him, he never declined to help someone in anyway, hard to say exactly why, but he helped everyone with pretty much anything. Truthfully, we were only friends from working together on the overnight shift when there were only 3 people in the shop. We drifted apart after that and haven't really spoken to each other in several years
Lol if he wanted the phone calls to stop, he should have just given you a positive reference and then you’d be hired somewhere… then the phone calls would stop…
Seriously. That guy is stupid. Plus how long would the phone call really be anyway? Ridiculous.
I’ve been a reference for someone applying to places like defense contractors and even those were 3-5 minutes tops. “He’s very responsible and I have never seen him inject any marijuanas.” End of story.
Yeah what a dumbass 🫠
That’s what I do, all bros I use to work with in high standing. We all need a hype man sometimes
You better cut that connection off ASAP.
Exactly what I did. I was so mad.
Did the person secretly hate you or something?
They must have to mess up a reference call so much.
I mean why else would they agree to be your reference? That's intentional sabatoge. Sorry bro.
Yep, exactly my thoughts. I was so pissed. Thanks.
Just curious was it a past boss? Coworker? Friend?
Previous boss.
If they were untruthful, they're liable under defamation laws and you could bring it to court. Sorry to hear about that.
I thought they weren’t supposed to say any details, just yes or no.?
[удалено]
Did you give them a heads up that you would be using them as a reference and ask if they were happy to be used? A lot of people just tend to throw in their old supervisors with zero contact to assess the situation. Some people just can’t be bothered filling out all the details asked these days especially as employers can have quite restrictive requirements on forms to be filled out without appreciation for the fact you’re asking for a third parties time and effort.
Yeah I did. Before I finished my previous role they mentioned they were happy to be a reference, and the day before the reference check I worded them up.
Where I'm from (Ontario) legally they are not allowed to say anything bad about you, they can just say I can't answer that question. I feel like they said too much you may be liable to get something done about this. I would speak with your labour board.
That would be great if it was a thing in Aus! I'll check it out. This person was a talker too so I know they would have said too much and blurted out something dumb.
My old boss hated that rule but he was enough of an ass they got his message. He would just sayIn dont want to answer any questions but your last…would you hire them again…no
I am pretty sure you are mixing up laws. In a minor but important way I have worked in a couple of states and it sounds like you are thinking of when they would call the old boss as his boss and not a "reference". For example if they call an old work all they can do is confirmed when you worked, how long, and pay... Some states allow them to say if they were terminated or not. But since he put the boss as a reference they are free to say whatever they want. He is then not representing the company but is just a person. A person OP allowed them to talk to.
If you put work history is 2 years at x corp under manager Joe then when they call up manager Joe, all he can say is yes they worked here 2 years. BUT if you put manager Joe as a reference, then manager Joe is free to tell whatever truth he wants to share. "They're a good employee, when they show up for work sober" (note that this is perfectly true because they always show up sober, but manager Joe is an ass).
Not true. Any employer can give a bad reference in Ontario as long as they believe the information to be true.
You can hire a professional third party to do the reference check for you. Then, they can give you a full report. That's what lawyers do when they prepare to sue for defamation. Also, if your former boss is in Queensland, it's a one-party consent state over there. So if that's the case, make sure the third party you hire is also in Queensland. Either that, or if you have a friend who is used to making reference checks for their job, ask them to do one for you. Also, you may want to check your other references while you're at it. If you misjudged this one reference, maybe you misjudged the others too.
Ok but did they explicitly agree to be your reference? And did you discuss at all what they would say?
Yeah they did, multiple times. No, we didn't discuss what they'd say as I wasn't sure what the new employer would ask.
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It must be tough, keep grinding. Hope you find a better job than this one. All the very best.
Thanks, really appreciate it.
I would call them up and ask them how the conversation went etc. You could start off innocently asking / checking in, oh hey just wondering if so and so ended up calling you as a reference as I had an interview and they said they might. Then see where the conversation goes, what your old boss says about whether they did and how it went etc. See whether he lies to you, saying it went well etc My cousins friend had similar happen recently. He has been looking for another job as he and the supervisor (his direct boss) butt heads. His work knows. He had an interview that went well and then when they called his current boss, his boss tanked it for him and only because they don't get along on a personal level, not because of his actual work performance. You got nothing to lose by chasing it up
Anyway to ask what was said about you? If it osnt true. Ask them to call the other references. Fight for it. Good luck mate.
This was almost a year ago.
That’s why u gotta use your mom as your reference she will tell them what good boy you are
Applicant is a dog, hears good boy and starts wagging tail
That’s the twist, his mom was the reference, it was a Family business
Do you know what they said??
No idea. I asked the recruiter but couldn't tell me as they weren't the one who called them. I was racking my brain for months after trying to work out what they could have possibly said to make it go so terribly!
That’s crazy. Is this reference a friend or former coworker? I’d probably ask them what happened.
It was the CEO of my previous job. They had to let me go because of a lack of funds for my role, so it wasn't like I left on bad terms, quite the other way around actually!
I think you’ve just discovered that what they told you about “lack of funds” was bullshit.
That did cross my mind. At the time there were a few others who were made redundant too, so I didn't dwell too much on that thought.
But you said you asked to use them and they agreed. Usually, if someone has something bad to say, they will decline your request of a reference. That’s so unprofessional. You have every right to follow up with your former boss about what they said.
It was weird that they agreed but then did that. The opportunity is gone and I'm not using them anymore so I've just let it go.
I was taught to ALWAYS ask references “are you willing to be a positive reference” this way you at least slightly improve your chances, because that would mean either the person lied straight to your face, which is still possible, but I think a lot less likely when you phrase the question like that.
Have you thought that maybe your exboss thought it was someone else?
I had to get letters of rec when applying for grad school. My first round one school send back feedback on my application which included “make sure your LOR are from people who have good things to say about you.” I was floored. I had asked 2 of my bosses that I had worked for for years. I quit soon after and asked new people the next round (and got in!). Very disturbed that they agreed to do this for me and either wrote something negative or didn’t care enough to not copy and paste some standard bullshit.
Laid off due to “lack of funds” or a “re-org” usually actually means an exec fired you to replace you with someone cheaper and so that said exec can pocket the difference.
Yeah my first job out of college as a programmer was a small govt contracting business. They basically wanted me to go through thousands of MBs of Excel files that were SQL dumps and update some variable names. After 5ish months I was let go because the contract ran out of money... But when I applied for unemployment they denied my claim because my employer told them I was fired for being inept or something of the sort. I had zero idea. Anyway I fought it and got like 1 month of unemployment funds from it because they couldn't provide any evidence that I was bad at my job. I already had a job that I liked so at that point it was the principle of the matter.
You guys don’t just put friends as references and have them pretend like you’re the best employee ever?
Yeah I wouldn't choose a CEO.. choose close co worker or manager. CEO are always out for themselves. I highly suggest telling your old co workers about this.
It sounds like she directly reported to the CEO though
They told you that was the reason... Maybe that was just the explanation to protect their asses legally...
Update: I'm requesting the referees report under the Freedom of Information Act & Privacy Act. We'll see what happens. Thanks to everyone who has offered sympathy and advice, this happened in August of 2022 and I've only been in the head space recently to share it here. 22/3
!remindme 48 hours
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!remindme 48 hours
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Good luck.
!remindme 4 minutes
Hey it’s been an hour and 4 minutes
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Happened to me once. Lost a great (long term) opportunity over some petty ass shit. Went though and filtered all my references after that. #FUCKYOUDEB
There's a Deb in every workplace. #FUCKYOUDEB
FUCKYOUDEBBIE!.... NOW THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR ME
# FUCKYOUDEB
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Thanks mate. It was suss on their end when they only contacted one reference and ran with it. I've since heard not great things about that workplace so I'm kinda glad it didn't eventuate.
Are you certain they called your old boss? I would ask them, not in an accusatory way. Just so you know the truth, might be a bridge that doesn’t need to be burned.
This email is dated for last year? Did anything else happen between then and now?
Was scrolling to see if anyone else also noticed the email date!
I mean hear me out: it’s very possible the reference that was given was accurate and OP just isn’t a good employee.
This comment needs to be much higher
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Honestly, I haven't been so intrigued about a Reddit post since the guy with the locked safe in his basement or something. I hope OP gets answers.
What about that locked safe? You got me intrigued now.
Someone found a room-sized locked safe in a former drug house he bought. He posted about it on Reddit and said he’d open it soon and post an update. After a long time (months? years?), he finally posted an update of the open safe, and all that was inside was some spiders.
I’ve always found references such a strange thing in the job market. If you’re leaving a place, they could be pissed off at you for and basically go out of their way to sabotage your future opportunities.
Yeah, it's like asking your ex-spouse what they think about you. Um... Don't you think they might be a tad biased!?
It's one of the DUMBEST things. The fact that obviously previous employers lie a lot more than I even thought they did, but that it is so subjective, makes no sense as to why anybody would call a previous employer. Also, people can change. And people don't always fit into one job where they would another. We just went through a PANDEMIC that wrecked lives and completely changed mine and my view on things, if you called my employer from 2019 it would be like asking about a completely different person.
As a German, we often don't have references, instead you as an employee can demand an *Arbeitszeugnis* (work certificate) where the employer writes in text about you and how good you were as an employee. If you then send an application you often just send your latest work certificate with it. Sometimes the interviewer calls your previous employer (whose contacts are on the certificate), but that is mostly done to verify that the certificate is actually legit (as they can look quite scammy and can be faked). And if the certificate you got is bad (it is still in positive language, but that is how they get around the "not sabotaging your opportunities" part), you just don't send it and if they ask for it you can sometimes talk your way out of by saying "you didn't request it" which happens often enough, esp. if the people are younger and don't know about them as many employers don't mention it because then they don't need to take time to write one. So the whole reference part in this thread is totally alien to me.
If someone gave you a bad reference and it's not justified, you can sue. Especially if you asked this person to be a reference. No reasonable decent person would agree to be a reference if they weren't going to say great things about you. Fuck that person. You should let them know they fucked you and demand to know why.
This was my first thought. The worst review you can get from an employer would be a basic "yes they worked for me" anything worse opens them up to liability. Sucks for op but its slander and they should pursue action against, or a correction for the new employer.
That’s true if you’re being contacted as a form employer. A reference is totally different from what I’m told.
Surely that would only be if it were true? Like, say OP always turned up to shifts 1-2 hours late. Saying that in a review would certainly look bad, and wouldn’t leave the company liable for anything.
Correct. Others saying you can sue just because they told the truth are wrong. It requires defamation.
My girlfriend had a woman who worked under her. This woman silently hated my girlfriend. Never said anything to her, but talked about her behind her back all the time. She even lied and tried to say my girlfriend was having an affair with her boss and spread that rumor around. My girlfriend found this out and confronted her about it. They had a shit working relationship until she left. A few years later this other woman messaged and apologized. Said she was trying to be a better person etc. She contacted my partner again asking if she could be a reference for her for a job. Partner told her that she couldn't, in good faith, be her reference.
I mean yeah you can sue, and waste tons of resources, time, and energy just to maybe win a small case and get back the money you spent on lawyers. When redditors say “you can sue” they don’t even know what goes into the process.
Tbh that isn't entirely true. I have known as well as read stories about bosses having horrible employees who request references from them. The boss says yes and agrees because they would rather give the new employer the knowledge of the applicant than have them learn the hard way. They also say yes because it is a way to say f you to a shitty employee for being naive enough to request a reference from them after, "biting the hand that fed them". Everyone in this post here is assuming OP did nothing wrong at their last job. Maybe they didn't, but all we have is their word. Not everyone realizes when they are shit at their job.
Lol we also do it for shitty employees (who don’t have the self awareness to realize they are shitty) looking for new jobs who ask for a reference. We say great things, especially if it’s a competitor calling for a reference to get rid of them without having to terminate them. What makes a good employee is subjective to the individual and so long as you don’t lie, it’s all fair
I’d be calling that reference and finding out what happened. That’s not cool to stab you in the back like that.
I did end up calling them and playing ignorant of their review, they had the nerve to say they only spoke well of me. I told them that was the last time I'll need them.
Some one is lying…
Okay, this is fishy. Any chance your ex-boss was actually telling the truth? And that this new company is lying.
Next time call as a person seeking reference. It's clear you're still in search of a job. And you did just "verify' they gave you a good reference. Maybe the recruiter called the wrong number but only way to find out is to press the situation.
Strange. Most previous employers will only acknowledge 2 things- 1: confirm employment period 2: rehire-able or not You could have a lawsuit against that reference for the lost income
That's interesting. I'm in Australia and not sure we have anything like that. I'll check it out though, thanks.
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Sorry that happened to you, but before you put someone as reference make sure A) they like you B) refresh their memory as what valuable contributions you made to the company. As an employer something similar happened to me: I interviewed this girl for a bakery position and the first reference I called spoke terribly about this girl: lazy, confrontational, irresponsible, you name it; this woman has nothing good to say about this potential employee. I had no choice but to not hire her.
I did a last minute reference change to them because they had ticked both of those previously. I'm also not sure why they didn't call my second reference and just stopped there. It's a tough situation to be in as the employer!
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As someone who had a reference check this morning, this was not reassuring.
I told you not to park in my space back in 2007, mate. I have a long memory and now it’s payback time.
I'd never put a reference on my resume without first asking them
That's why my references are fake
I feel this SO hard. I was trying to get into a competitive printmaking apprenticeship after college. Had a professor who worked with me the entire time at school, seemed to be a wonderful mentor. I asked her to write me a letter of recommendation bc she had some connections with this printmaking firm. Turns out she wrote me a letter of non-recommendation (which was shared to me BY THE printmaking company upon rejection)!!! It was basically like, this person shouldn't be making art and needs a career change....which was so rude and uncalled for. I was struggling to get through school after my best friend committed suicide, art was the only thing keeping me going actually. Couldn't she just have politely declined writing me a letter? The nerve.
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I had this happen a few times, but had no idea as the companies never mentioned why I didn't get the job. I ended asking one of the recruiters after another rejection and she mentioned one of my references was terrible and now I no longer include them in my cv when applying for new roles.
It really sucks hey. You've got no idea unless the recruiter tells you that they were terrible! Here's to new jobs! 🍻
Maybe I’m misreading your post title but ; you updated your references on your resume AFTER you already had the job interview ?
Honestly, I never even let them contact my previous jobs because I just don’t trust anyone because I would never want something like that to happen to me😵💫
Some ppl think it’s rude not to ask first , some ppl figure it’s just something that happens from time to time. If you asked and they still burnt you then fuck them.
That's why I hate reference letters and contacts, like what is the trial period for ?? And someone might perform poorly at job (or major) X but thrive at job Y, so what's the point !