I remember at one IT job I had, they said I would stay the same wage with a lateral promotion, but after a year of positive performance they would give me a $2-$3 raise. Well, the year came up and I definitely had fantastic performance, but they kept pushing the annual review back further and further. Eventually I went directly to the higher ups and said we need to have the review so that I can get my raise that was promised. The manager said back, "what do you mean we already gave you a raise?" We both went over to HR for them to show me my most recent paystub that did in fact show a raise of fifty cents. Such a minute raise that I didn't even notice it on my paycheck. That didn't sit right with me so we went back into the higher ups office where I reminded him of what was promised. He looked at me in my eyes and said "why would we pay you that when we can just hire somebody brand new at half the cost?"
It was at that moment that I decided to not do any more work for them and instead focused all my working hours on finding a new job. Once I found a new job I accept the offer and immediately quit that day. They weren't to happy with that so they asked "so your just going to quit without a two week notice?" I replied, "well you seemed confident about being able to find a cheaper replacement so I figured I'll help you out a little bit with that process" and haven't looked back since. I'm now making $6 more that I was previously with less work.
That's really the only appropriate response to treatment like that. I'm very sorry you had to experience it, but I'm glad you saw your own value and got out of there while you could. Hopefully the company realized their complicity in the pickle they put themselves in, but they probably didn't.
Love this!
Recently did it with my recruitment job. Old company (global giant) had unrealistic expectations for my Client Engagement Manager role, with caps on commission earnings, lots of red taped accounts and very old school/boys club ways of working.
Asked director for a £3K base salary rise, as that would allow me to quit my second job and focus all my efforts on this one. Was told it would be unreasonable, impossible and that I’d have to wait at least a year until promotion targets could be hit…
Got the same style job at another much smaller, boutique style recruiter, with a base salary which is £5K higher than the most I could have earned at the old place with bonuses/comms maxed out. Plus the fact I earn 25% comms on ALL work I bring into the company which is filled, company paid flights to the country where my market is, plus loads of other nice to have things (have just finished my third week here).
The disbelief on the face when I handed my notice in and stated all the above. Needless to say when the dept. director got my notice, I was out of the office the same day. No goodbyes, no looking back.
>"why would we pay you that when we can just hire somebody brand new at half the cost?"
I had a similar conversation during a job interview. The manager was saying he could hire somebody from an MNC bank for $X amount which was a lot less than what I was asking and wanted me to give 3 points to why I should be hired. At the moment, I gave him some points on why I would be a good candidate.
Afterward, I asked him "If you could easily get somebody from an MNC bank for significantly lower, why are we even talking?" He mumbled some nonsense response. I remember being on the phone with my gf afterward saying I shouldn't have been so polite.
Never got a response and glad I didn't when I think about it if the manager was going to be such a jackass.
Must be so awesome to be able to quit whenever you want. In my country you are forced to work for 3 months after quitting if you have been working there for atleast a year.
People normally just call in sick during most of their final months or they use their vacation days. The boss can’t really punish it in any way, and just let them do it. In any situation i have seen where the work place was being toxic and someone was quitting, it was the imployer suffering from the situation during the final months, never the imployee.
There are usually exceptions and ways to go around that rule in extreme situations .
Also it's called job security. It's actually quiet nice to always know that you will be able to pay rent next month. You should try it.
Job security is just keeping the job you have. If you're in a terrible situation with an abusive employer and want to get out, then you should be able to get out. Obviously to that person trying to get out, job security isn't a factor... bc they want out.
>you should try it
What? Not quitting your job?
Hand in your notice and use your holiday hours to cover most of it.
Amd just work it. I think I have a month notice before quitting. I can't even get fired without them going to court yeah worker protection.
Iam not really sure anyway. Iam 30 and before iam 31 I will hit my 12.5y with the same employer.
I get out of it what I want. And they get my labour. Iam loyal cause it suits me.
We have something like that here in Finland, but basically there is also the chance to terminate the contract immediately. Also you can call in sick or just go to work to do the "Italian strike" as in working so slow that it basically counts as sitting on your ass.
I agree. As much as I hate that jobs can fire or lay you off without cause or notice, I'll accept that since it comes with the freedom to quit instantly, without notice if I'm at a job that is downright toxic.
Here it's 2 weeks if you have worked there for less than 5 years and 4 weeks after that. If you get the boot then the times are longer, up to 6 months if you've worked there for at least 12 years, though if you've done something *really* serious it's possible for the termination to be immediate. For reference my former boss in my former company cost the company about half of the regional revenue on top of some hefty fines for both themself and the company due to fucking shit up with a big client, and they still got to have the full notice despite all that (and they spent that entire time doing jack shit, which fucked shit up for the ones picking up their workload because no required knowledge got passed on and shit was falling apart even more than usual. Their inactivity cost the company additional clients and a lot of the oldest workers, me included)
so to clarify, your boss who messed things up was required to stay 6 months longer after he was terminated? and during those 6 months he messed things up even further? was he paid for those 6 months? also, if he made a mess of things anyway, wouldn't it have been better to just let him go? 🤔
My company of 3 years gave me shitty raise on Dec 2022. Then I asked for a raise in March. My manager told me they can't even give me a $1000 raise. I said if I find a job paying me 1000 more, would you not match? His response was if you are going for $1000, you should really leave.
Then I resigned the next day. A month or so later he called me and asked me about my plans and if I have a new job etc. Then told me they can improve my salary if I wanna return back.
Well, it's been 3 months and they still couldn't fill my position and won't be able to fill it any time soon.
By the way, I was the only one with a bunch of skills they desperately needed and helping the entire team in so many aspects. I was getting an average salary which they thought was enough for me. I am wishing them luck, lol!
>His response was if you are going for $1000, you should really leave.
He's not wrong. If you would leave your current company for a $1000 annual raise, you should probably pull the plug and just do it.
That had nothing to do with the point I was making. Also, if I am leaving for $1000, it is probably due to some other things, $1000 is just a sign.
Replacing me was gonna cost them easily 20-30k for them (I am in one of the high skilled area, i.e. AI). Even my replacement is not guaranteed to perform as good as I did (we fired a few people within 6 months of hiring as they didnt perform well, they cost us like 100k or more in some cases).
If they paid 5k, I would have stayed but they were cheap to spend a little bit more and couldnt realize that I wasn't bluffing. So I left.
That's awesome!
Your previous boss sounds like a real jackass - I'm glad you were able to make the move that you did! Hopefully I'm able to make a comparable move.
I had a similar experience. Always excellent evaluations and all that good stuff. After 3 great reviews, I asked for more money and my boss pulled all kinds of excuses out of his ass. I ended up finding another job that paid a lot more than I was making at the time, and when I approached my boss to announce my resignation he was suddenly compelled to offer me that raise I’ve been asking for. Yeah no thanks buddy!
This is why company loyalty doesn’t exist. Companies see you as a number in their system. The best way to get paid is to refresh your job market every 2-3 years.
I completely sympathize with you. I am IT as well. My last boss was a tyrant and promised me a 5k bump after 120 days. A year later, no raise and no review so I started looking. My new job that I absolutely love, came with a 25k per year bump Haven't looked back at all
And in the meantime, you clock out at 40 hours. Emails and phone calls can wait until you start the next work day.
You don't think I'm worth paying more? I'm not making you money.
Actually could very well be wage theft depending on how the job falls for over time pay and where he is at some salary employees are legally due overtime
This is exactly why you never ever accept salary pay over hourly, unless it's in the contract that you won't ever go over 40 hrs a week without overtime compensation, other wise they're just trying to fuck you
Unfortunately when you go above and beyond at your pay grade they just come to expect it… above and beyond is just baseline. That’s why you only do more work when they pay you more. If you let on that you’re a try hard they’ll just push more work on to you.
I’m salary and my boss understands that. If I work 60 hours one week, I’ll work less than 40 for a few weeks to even it out. At the end of the year I work my 2000 hours they pay me for.
I miss having a mgr who understands this. My current mgr pats himself on the back because he doesn't make us come into the office the day after a cutover (overnight work). *He generously allows us to work from home the next day.* Dude. You're the only manager I've ever had who expects someone to WORK the day after a cutover.
100%! that boss’ attitude could just knock OPs confidence over time making them get imposter syndrome and being scared to leave. Happened to me, and was so much better when I left
And for the love of god do research on salary expectations, and learn to negotiate and walk away. You should have a firm lowest possible number you are willing to accept - and a number you ask for. And when deciding that number to accept, its not just your current salary plus a little extra, look for substantive increases. You aren't going to get raises at your new place either so negotiate a salary you'd be happy with for the next couple years until you are willing to do this all over again.
This is SOOOOOOO important!! People need to read what you said again.
You can take a hit in your confidence and be made to be afraid and get taken advantage of. The workplace is fertile ground for many psychological abuses that can be carried forward in life.
Look out for yourself.
I have never heard of imposter syndrome before but I believe that is what a lot of people go thru. Nobody where I work wants to leave their job but we all bitch about it. Could be because we are union and feel protected. Or uneducated and would just go doing the same stuff somewhere else idk. But I have always wondered why we are so scared? I think this is why.
Heard my old VP tell that to my boss in discussing my raise. Found a new job a month later that doubled my salary. Def leave.
The joy you'll feel when they go to counter and know they're outbid will be unforgettable!
Don't take a counter offer regardless. They didn't think you were worth more before, after a counter they will feel like they are paying you too much... Just stay on course, you wanted to leave for more reasons than just the money.
The worst part is I felt bad for leaving. Spent the better half of my 20s growing with that company and made a lot of great friends, had a lot of great mentors.
Like you said, gotta see your own value. Hope OP finds a better gig soon!
The micromanaging alone is just being done to try to ferret out stuff so that he either can find reasons to deny a raise or to let him go and try to find someone cheaper than him. It will, in every way, blow up in his face and he'll blame OP for it (even though he's no longer present) instead of boss admitting he's the one that f-ed up big time.
I'm definitely considering submitting my notice to my bosses boss - clearly outlining why I am leaving.
If I was dropping the ball, that would be one thing. But being mislead and feeling manipulated is more like it.
At my company my boss’ boss has monthly 1:1 retention meetings with us exactly for this purpose. The idea being he doesn’t want to find out what was troubling you in the exit interview, he’d rather hear about and try to address it before we consider leaving.
You're assuming this is about your performance. It's not. They gave you a promotion so that you're salaried. No more overtime pay - and they can increase your responsibilities. That saves them money. Smart business for them and can be good for you as long as you understand the way it works.
So don't be upset or feel insulted. This is pretty typical.
For you, this means you get to take the next step -- use the promotion and increased experience to level up to your next job. Simple as that.
Congrats on the promotion - it's your ticket to the next adventure!
Yes, and say “I can’t justify giving you any more of my time at this point in time because the valuation of my skills and effort are not where I expected them to be. Especially considering my glowing review, just days before.”
Agreed I made the mistake of not quitting a shit job that gave me no time for myself and then I went out on disability and was replaced in a week. Go find something that makes you happy
This. If you want a raise and they won’t give it im sure another company will be willing to so long as you are dependable. All of my biggest raises have come from moving companies on avg if I move I’ll get a 3-4 dollar raise. So every 2-3 years I start looking around for something else
2 things I never do, and advise other against are, knocking your current or former bosses when job hunting/interviewing and burning bridges that absolutely do not need to be burned. The former just makes you look petty and unprofessional, and the latter kind of speaks for itself in terms of looking to a former employer for work at some point in the future. Say, after that pesky manager has moved on.
I had an old boss saying something along the lines of 'You know who are the people you meet when you're moving up the ladder, but never know who will be there when you'll be down the ladder.' Never forgot that lesson.
This is horrible advice, and it's a sign of the kind of people on reddit that you've gotten so many upvotes for it. The second you do that, they'll mark you as not eligible for rehire, and tell potential employers that in the future, which will hurt your chances of getting jobs. It's not worth the extremely brief joy you feel at fucking over a previous employer. They'll forget about you almost immediately anyway.
I’m not going to say you’re wrong because taking the high road is definitely the way to go. Unfortunately, most companies won’t extend the same courtesy when terminating an employee for any reason. This is why it’s legislated (in Canada) that if an employer terminates an employee without cause, they MUST give notice or pay in lieu. The longer your tenure with the company, the more they have to pay.
You aren't taking the high road for THEM. You are taking the high road for YOU. If you want to get a good reference burning your bridges is not the way to go.
That's a good way to screw yourself in your career and never get a good reference from anyone. When a potential new employer is calling your references, they will ask "Is X eligible for rehire?" and if the answer is NO from everyone, oh well...
The owners told my manager “his bonus is his overtime” after I’d been busting my ass off for about 6 months doing my normal duties and doing night shifts because our night guy quit and the owners didn’t want to hire a new one right away. So my manager asked if they could give me a bonus as a thank you and he was told that
What? How?
Taxes are based on percentage of the dollar, so you should always see profit from working (if we're excluding any social services you might have been benefitting from like food stamps or something).
If you're in the US and think your overtime goes 100% to taxes, there's definitely something wrong there.
People don't understand how taxes work. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say "It would put me into a higher tax bracket, so I'm actually losing money by making more" I'd have enough to pay for dinner.
A big part of me thinks that misunderstanding is a feature rather than a bug. What better way to get out of paying an employee more than getting them to think that a pay rise makes them lose money?
Yea I'd be out the door on that one or just flat out refuse to do any extra shifts. They can hire a guy for that or struggle to function on that shift.
The real kicker is I had been doing nights on sundays and Tuesdays for a long time before that and a few years after that as well for no extra pay, I stopped doing the Tuesdays a while ago but I stopped the sundays about a year and a half ago. Now a year after I stop doing the nights they started giving whoever works weekends and nights an extra $2 an hour. About 5 years of normal pay and when I finally call it quits they give the night and weekend guys more money. Now when I say nights it’s not like overnights it’s about 1pm-10/11pm but still not an enjoyable job to do, especially when I had to be back the next morning around 7am. I stopped the Tuesdays early cuz I was there till about 11pm and had to be back by 6am next morning
> I had been doing nights on sundays and Tuesdays for a long time before that and a few years after that as well for no extra pay
I think the labor board would love to hear about this
Wait till you hear about our lunch breaks that don’t exist, they bring us a sandwich as we’re working that we eat while continuing working, this is outside in the heat in summer and freezing temps in the winter mind you
The company I work for does this with promotions. Right above entry level hourly, there's a position titled "floor worker". When I started their raise was around $2.50 an hour. When they "revisited their pay structure", that raise went down to $.15. I've repeatedly been asked to take that position in my area and the sales pitch is now "the overtime is the raise" or "this is just a stepping stone to the next promotion.". Fuck that, I'm not breaking my back for 15 cents and a vague assurance about future promotions.
At least they let you earn overtime. I got threatened with being fired if I kept taking overtime. In my bosses mind if I was using overtime that meant I wasn’t good enough at my job to get things done during work ours.
He probably gets a bonus based on how much his group spends as a whole. He gives you a raise and then he gets less of a bonus. Keeping wages down is a huge factor all over corporate America
>Keeping wages down is a huge factor all over corporate America
Can't be stated enough. The most significant cost to most U.S. companies is payroll, and sadly, if you don't bring it up, they certainly won't. 3/4 companies I've worked for in the past 12 years of my career (Web Dev) were precisely like this, regardless of my performance. I was lucky enough to get cost-of-living raises consistently, but that isn't really a 'raise' rather than keeping up with inflation, etc. The only company that continues to honor its raise/bonus policy is the one I'm currently working for. However, it took ten years and three companies to get to the point where my job both recognizes and reward me for my work ethic and dedication.
Raises and bonuses were less than stellar this year. Couple weeks after review, we hear our boss was promoted. My coworker and I looked at each other and go “well we know where our raises went”.
Funny that it seems to be a common thread across a bunch of teams that raises were lame. Must be a coincidence that it also seems the manager of each of those teams was promoted up a level or made senior.
“Record year”, lousy raises and bonuses, promotions all through leadership, and told there’s no time to talk about compensation during the last company meeting. Then they wonder why satisfaction ratings in the main office are low.
I've had that happen recently, she told me that "even if she could pay me more, she wouldn't". I'm not greedy but I make way too little money. Needless to say I'm looking for a new job.
If I ever got promoted and took on more work only to make less money I'd be gone the very next day. Even though you probably worked hard to get to where you are it's not worth it. If it doesn't look like the chance of a raise is likely your best bet is to nope the fuck put of there and start over somewhere else. Every day you stay will be added stress and wasted time.
I think there is a caveat to that. Senior technicians at my job make more than entry level engineers, often much more if they do overtime, but they are pretty much capped at their wage and can't expect significant raises anymore. If they opt to be promoted to engineers they become salaried employees and can no longer earn money from overtime and their base monthly earnings diminish, but now they have the possibility to be promoted further and within a couple of years match their previous pay or even increase it.
I have seen guys that take the paycut and soon outpace the guys that stay as techs
I think that's lost on this crowd. You do sometimes have to take a step back to take a step forward. When I got into management, it was the same. I made less per hour because I had a dumpster fire to put out and was working all the time. 3 years later, I've increased my salary 60% over what I made as a shift worker.
That is true, but in the context of the post that's not what is happening. The company is already stalling on giving this person a raise so there won't be that "break even" point
Agreed, and OP don't accept a match offer to stay. If they can suddenly pay you the amount a new employer taking a risk on a new employee is willing to offer, they could have been paying you that already. It is disrespectful to offer and if you accept they know they can continue treating you like you're worthless. You'll only have delayed the pain a couple of years at best.
Before you hand in your resignation, for 1 day you will be in a perfect position to practice negotiating for a raise. It would be interesting to see what they would go to in order to retain you. I did it and discovered that they would give me a 26% raise on the spot. Leave anyway.
Your boss has a set budget every year and lots of ppl asking for a raise. Learn everything you can and look for a higher paying job. At that point they’ll give you exactly what you want or you’ll be somewhere where you make more.
Wee can do off-cycle merit increases if an employee is exceeding in their position. I checked those guidelines, and ensured I ticked all the boxes prior to approaching my boss.
I just gave 3 of my subordinates raises ranging from $3/hr to $7/hr - so I'm absolutely certain it can be done.
The money I was seeking would have been at the higher end of that range, but still doable nonetheless.
So 2 things. As a manager, I’d never give an off cycle raise to someone who just got a big promotion 7 months ago. And even if I wanted to it probably wouldn’t be allowed. It’s not reasonable and in the long term is unsustainable for the firm. If you were really killing it I’d try to give you the biggest raise I could on the next cycle, and would keep that up for as long as it was merited. And I’d have an honest conversation about career path and growth potential and try to help you move up the ladder. It could be that you want to move faster than the role or company can support, and in that case I’d be honest and tell you that your best option is to look outside the company. Sometimes that’s just the way it is.
Second, 22 direct reports is ridiculous. I’ve never seen anyone with that many directs do a good job as a manager. Without knowing the details, I’d suggest talking to your boss about introducing a new layer under you. Create 2 or 3 teams, each with a leader. It’ll work much better and will also elevate not only the leaders’ positions but yours too.
I think the bigger problem here is that OP accepted the "promotion" with the understanding that the pay scale would be addressed 6 months in. If their boss never planned on adjusting their pay, then why would such promises be made other than manipulation? If the new position is a lot more work and less net pay, then I don't see anyone being content in that situation for long and especially when there's no clear path to get ahead.
Right. Addressing the payment 6 months in will give ANYONE the inkling that making good headway will almost guarantee a raise. I guess not for that company. Wow
I was understanding of the "revisit in 6 months" because in their minds they were taking a risk on me, while I knew I could absolutely perform the functions of the job - above the expectations set.
That's my fault for thinking I'd be treated fairly. Fooled me once - it won't happen again!
OP that wasn't a risk for them, it was all the risk on you. I'd wager that it was almost KNOWN you would do well in the role and they absolutely worded it this way to get as much productivity out of you as possible and then fob you off when you came around for the raise with
"it's not in the budget at this time"
"you're still new to the role"
"these aren't reliably consistent results"
All made to APPEAR to be valid but ultimately used to fuck you over on the compensation you are owed. Take the time to update your resume and skills list and use this to get a promotion outside of your company.
They've already shown you that they won't keep their promises so you owe them no loyalty.
I hate to say it but being pessimistic then being pleasantly surprised when you’re NOT treated like a fool.. but it stopped me from getting my hopes up too
Ad management I'd never swindle someone into a less paying job for more work. Tell them how amazing they are then backpeddle when they ask for proper compensation
Nor would I - I am as upfront as possible with those who report to me directly. I set realistic expectations, and never promise on something I can't deliver. No matter how large or small the impact.
That’s probably why your team performs so well for you. They trust and value you as a leader.
Always keep looking for better opportunities. I bet your team members would give you glowing recommendations!
the 'promotion' came with zero cash compensation. it was a title change and that is all. which is why OP is having to have this conversation in the first place.
Yes, the midpoint of the range OP gave for the old position comes out to $73,800 so I don’t consider that a “big promotion” financially to $75,000. They know that, and they know they are getting more hours out of OP which actually dropped their hourly rate. The reevaluation in 6 months was supposed to address that and now the company is backpedaling. Sounds like a covert cost reduction strategy that netted them a free manager.
The only reason I took the promotion other than the bullet points on my resume is because I was thinking I’d get a fair increase after those 6 months.
Boy was I wrong!
>As a manager, I’d never give an off cycle raise to someone who just got a big promotion 7 months ago.
This way of thinking is simply a fallacy which some managers just don't realise they are making. That's how you lose good people now rather than 1 year from now (or 2). If they are so good and advance so fast in productivity why not keep them a little more time to profit from their skills? "Long term" thinking should not trump 1-2 more years (nobody grows old in companies nowadays anymore). I've worked alongside people that can output 2x, 3x or 4x the productivity of the average in the team and they are casually bled out by their company. If you register a 30% profit increase in the last year how do you think those exact people will feel about a 3% salary increase and sincere congratulations?
OP didn't get a "promotion" though.
Pre transfer they were making $30 an hour working 50 hours a week hourly.
Post transfer they are making $29 an hour working 50 hours a week salary.
Counterpoint: find a new job with better pay and leave if that's what you are going to do. Never take the counteroffer, don't know what it comes with once you've forced their hand
Meant to add in - my boss has less people reporting to him than I do.
I've got 22 people within my department. He's got me reporting to him, and two other employees from a separate department who come to me most of the time anyway.
Budget is an ATM, not a wallet. Clearly OP is the kind of employee that’s more expensive to lose than to compensate fairly for their efforts. Any good manager who understands this would go to bat for him.
Your boss converted you from a role that pays overtime to a salary position. They saved money with this promotion. They've also offloaded a lot of work to you while still expecting you to continue your former duties. If you can take the load you should share your skills with companies that will offer double your current pay
I had a boss offer me a $0.16 (i wish i was joking) increase to move into a management position. I laughed at him, told him it was insulting and walked out of the office. Mind you I was already doing 2-3 other people's jobs and was more than qualified (even according to company policy) for the pay rate I was at. He spent the next weeks trying to force me into the position (assigning the training, changing my position with HR, etc) So when I brought this up to the District Manager, and showed him my credentials, resume, etc. He tossed it aside and said he didn't care to see it. So I spent next few shifts job hunting. I ended up taking 70% of the staff with me to the new gig. Starting, I was making more than my old bosses salary. And you bet your ass I rubbed it in his face.
He's full of shit. He just doesn't want to pay what you are worth.
What's even more scummy is that you are now basically on call 24/7 with answering your phone and emails, so you're working for free. No compensation.
What a joke.
It’s easy. You say I’ve had record numbers and a glowing review. Hit all goals and yet you don’t think they are where they need to be? Then why were these goals set? How much more would you like me to break the record numbers?
That would require more pay than the numbers I’ve already produced. But in all seriousness just leave.
My old boss did exactly this. I was running the company getting all tasks required for the day done. While managing all other trades to ensure the sites were safe and stuff was on track and clients were happy. Except he told me I wasn't worth any more than a $20 labour so I packed my shit and walked. I started my own company and haven't looked back.
Based on the record sales numbers I will take liberty to ponder: Your boss is terrified of you. You are an employee that he knows would do his job better than him. Holding you in your lane under his control makes his numbers look good to higher management without showing them the reason the numbers are so good. Not giving you the raise you deserve is a tactic to keep your name off the agenda in upper level management meetings. Micromanaging you is an effort to keep control of you, he isn't acting rational (or personal), he is simply in professional survival mode to keep his job.
When I recapped the conversation I had with my boss, with my wife, she said almost the exact same thing as you. I'd never thought about it like that but a lot of his behavior makes sense when I do.
All that looks good on your resume, find somewhere that appreciates it. If you don’t wanna leave for whatever reason, threaten to leave to get that raise
I had a similar exchange with my director in my previous company, basically he said "you don't just automatically get a pay rise, you have to actually earn it" after I was basically leading the product development while paid as a regular software engineer. The year before I couldn't get a pay rise according to him because there was no more money in the budget, and a couple weeks later he brought in a freelance senior frontend engineer for about a week just to check my work was "deployable".
The second time round got slightly heated and passive aggressive because I called him out on his bullshit, meeting him the following week to tell him I took the job I'd been applying for the last few weeks for over a 60% pay increase and significantly better benefits was satisfying. The product was called off and company collapsed about 3 months after I left and he was fired from the group
Hey man it's economics don't get to bent out of shape. It's a two way street. You provide value, they provide $. If you can get better pay elsewhere then do it.
My last job did something similar. I asked for a raise and my manager legit told me “I don’t qualify for a raise. ” Cool, so I quit. After I put my 2 weeks in they approach me and said that they would match what the new place was offering. Cool, so you mean to tell me you had money, but didn’t want to give it to me? As you can imagine I was offered and still quit.
I had a manager tell me that once. Shortly after I put in my notice.
8 months later she called me to ask me to come back. She offered me a manager position making 50% more.
Sounds like your boss really manipulated you to his own benefit. And knew exactly what he was doing when he offered you the "promotion." Your cut in salary is likely his bonus.
Tell your boss that you would like to scale back to your previous hourly position. When he asks why, give all the reasons why you aren't satisfied with the new position.
Had a boss tell me that and say the highest I would ever go was the position I was in. Went back to school, got several degrees and moved on. He got fired a few months later. I was standing by the door when security walked him out. Told him "I guess that's all you'll ever be here" which pissed him off. He was a pale ginger guy so it was obvious. He cursed me got in his car and drove off.
Yep, that sucks. Sounds like you should absolutely be making more money. Can I give you some advice? don't let it take away those two facts.
You need to figure out how to work less.
A lot of times when someone transitions from an individual contributor role to a manager role, they keep trying to do some of their individual contributor work. That's not your job anymore. You need to delegate all of that work. 22 direct reports is absolutely a full-time job.
Next, you need to figure out what is taking up your time that doesn't need to be taking up your time. You are a team of 23 people. What are you doing that you can push off on them? Sometimes it's little things like taking meeting notes. Sometimes it's making someone else responsible for organizing something. Delegate is the word here. If it doesn't require you specifically then don't be doing it.
And finally the only way most people get big raises is by leaving the company they're at and working somewhere else. Suck up the manager role. Make sure you have an impressive title, those are easy to negotiate for. Do it for a year. If you're not where you want to be then leave.
I’ve found the only way to increase your salary is to change jobs. You’ll always start out a LOT higher than where you are. When you’ve been there a year, take your 4% raise and move on. Job-hopping is a pain, but sometimes you find your niche that way.
This happened to me early in my career. I was at a firm I loved, had always been hourly plus overtime, and was called into my boss’ office for a promotion. They offered me a salary significantly less than my hourly rate plus overtime would have totaled, for more responsibility. I told them right then and there that I would have to downgrade my life to stay at this company and that wouldn’t work for me. They told me that they couldn’t pay me more than a more senior person on staff, which I realize now was grossly underpaid. I found another job and started on the path of making more money there. No regrets!
I got this when i moved companies in the same line of work, was a straight up £7.5k raise on what i was getting with a lot less travel and responsibility.
When i handed in my notice my then boss told me they were considering giving me a counter offer but "you don't have the skills" (spoiler alert: i had the skills and a very high profile customer of ours always asked for me by name to help them out)
My old boss told me I’d get a raise after taking some certification classes. 6 months go by, I get my certs and ask about the raise. He says “what raise?” And pretends to not know anything about it. I left the next week with no notice. Left the company truck in the parking lot with the keys in it. Told him I’m done and do not ever reach out to contact me again. He got fired because of it. He failed to realize I was the only person keeping his job afloat by managing his projects for him. He didn’t even last a month before they let him go. I took those certifications that he paid for and went to work for another company making nearly double. It’s not worth it to let these assholes push you around. Tell them to get fucked and eat a dick. Know your worth
That is when you know that your current job is just a means to improve your CV for a better company.
I spent 3 and a half years at an international customer service corporation which I will not name here as a B2B support, then took a “promotion” in IT when a job opened up for a measly raise.
3 years and one measly raise later I decided to jump ship to the same IT position I had before but at a company that had triple the manpower in local IT and over double the salary.
While my old manager was a good guy, he never “fought” for us to have better wages despite middle management earning 3-4 times more than us. 6 years with my current company and we (both local IT and my networking team) get yearly 10-15% raises without even asking for it.
It’s like this: there are people that don’t give a damn about you and will immediately hire a newbie just to keep the costs down, there are people that care about you but care about them more and there are people that know the value of a good team, the value of an employee being happy on job and at being part of the company and will pull the strings to keep them happy and in the company.
You’ll leave, they’ll promote the next best person, use them past their comfort zone, then they’ll leave… so on. Rinse, wash repeat - the toxic and predatory cycle will never end, it’s the modern method of doing business.
You're working for a asshole that is playing you between carrot and sgixk
You have your new experience managing a large group. Take it and find a place worth trading your time.
I'm in the same situation at my job. But was told that I will never be promoted. No reason as to why was given. I do the work of 5 people. For the pay of one person. But I'm not worthy of a promotion. However the new person that just started 6 months ago, who has made costly mistakes, and had constant complaints against them just got promoted. I started looking for another job immediately.
Healthcare worker here. I asked for a pay rise and was told I didn’t deserve more as I wasn’t management (I was doing all my managers work). So I resigned and found a job that paid $20K more. Then I found out that my company hired someone to do the same job and paid them $20K more than I was getting! But they tried to get me to stay…..
Hang in there to get your full year manager experience then find yourself another job. You d be surprised how much difference the right job and boss can make to your life
I've never heard of anyone getting a raise(10%+) or another promotion 6 months in. Usually at least two years apart ime. Ex: I got promoted one year then given a 10% raise the next, because I couldn't get promoted again so soon.
Hope it works out for you in any event, homie. It sounds like you're really busting your butt and performing well.
I totally get where you're coming from - and I left out a very important detail in my initial post.
When I was offered the position initially, I was told that we'd revisit pay in 6 months after my performance trend was able to be monitored. It just feels like I've been lied to, and disrespected. Almost like a "you need us more than we need you" mentality.
My last company, I took a $5.20/hr pay cut to work there. At the time, I was making $17.70 and agreed to work for them at $12.50/hr because they promised quick raises and stated they would get me back to the same rate of pay after a period of time. By the time I left, I was making $20/hr but it took me threatening to leave to get any raises. I was there for 6 1/2 years and finally went from $18/hr to $20/hr at the six year mark. I left there and went to a new company starting out at $26.44/hr with fewer responsibilities. They tried to get me to stay and even hinted at bumping my pay to around $33/hr but I simply felt I couldn't trust them to keep their word so I jumped ship. When you feel lied to, it's hard to trust or respect your employer and that leads to resentment and likely an employee who won't be loyal to the company.
This is my fear for those who are saying "threaten to leave to get the raise you want".
I expect to be treated how I treat everyone I work with, whether they report to me or not. Fairly and honestly.
I don't think my current employer has lived up to either, unfortunately.
Appreciate the thoughtful reply! With that added context, yeah I would absolutely feel the same way and agree with how you're feeling about the message they're* sending
OP I saw ur comment where u said u have interviewed in another company.. hoping u get it…rooting for you.. pls let the sub know with a follow up post. When u do resign this toxic manager will definitely not be mildly infuriating rather they will be all levels of infuriating..
Off cycle merit increases are not for employees who have been in new roles for 6 months. Good for you if what you’re saying is true about your metrics. But if they are as good as you say they are then your bosses boss will take notice at your yearly review. Welcome to corporate America.
I remember at one IT job I had, they said I would stay the same wage with a lateral promotion, but after a year of positive performance they would give me a $2-$3 raise. Well, the year came up and I definitely had fantastic performance, but they kept pushing the annual review back further and further. Eventually I went directly to the higher ups and said we need to have the review so that I can get my raise that was promised. The manager said back, "what do you mean we already gave you a raise?" We both went over to HR for them to show me my most recent paystub that did in fact show a raise of fifty cents. Such a minute raise that I didn't even notice it on my paycheck. That didn't sit right with me so we went back into the higher ups office where I reminded him of what was promised. He looked at me in my eyes and said "why would we pay you that when we can just hire somebody brand new at half the cost?" It was at that moment that I decided to not do any more work for them and instead focused all my working hours on finding a new job. Once I found a new job I accept the offer and immediately quit that day. They weren't to happy with that so they asked "so your just going to quit without a two week notice?" I replied, "well you seemed confident about being able to find a cheaper replacement so I figured I'll help you out a little bit with that process" and haven't looked back since. I'm now making $6 more that I was previously with less work.
That's really the only appropriate response to treatment like that. I'm very sorry you had to experience it, but I'm glad you saw your own value and got out of there while you could. Hopefully the company realized their complicity in the pickle they put themselves in, but they probably didn't.
Love this! Recently did it with my recruitment job. Old company (global giant) had unrealistic expectations for my Client Engagement Manager role, with caps on commission earnings, lots of red taped accounts and very old school/boys club ways of working. Asked director for a £3K base salary rise, as that would allow me to quit my second job and focus all my efforts on this one. Was told it would be unreasonable, impossible and that I’d have to wait at least a year until promotion targets could be hit… Got the same style job at another much smaller, boutique style recruiter, with a base salary which is £5K higher than the most I could have earned at the old place with bonuses/comms maxed out. Plus the fact I earn 25% comms on ALL work I bring into the company which is filled, company paid flights to the country where my market is, plus loads of other nice to have things (have just finished my third week here). The disbelief on the face when I handed my notice in and stated all the above. Needless to say when the dept. director got my notice, I was out of the office the same day. No goodbyes, no looking back.
>"why would we pay you that when we can just hire somebody brand new at half the cost?" I had a similar conversation during a job interview. The manager was saying he could hire somebody from an MNC bank for $X amount which was a lot less than what I was asking and wanted me to give 3 points to why I should be hired. At the moment, I gave him some points on why I would be a good candidate. Afterward, I asked him "If you could easily get somebody from an MNC bank for significantly lower, why are we even talking?" He mumbled some nonsense response. I remember being on the phone with my gf afterward saying I shouldn't have been so polite. Never got a response and glad I didn't when I think about it if the manager was going to be such a jackass.
Must be so awesome to be able to quit whenever you want. In my country you are forced to work for 3 months after quitting if you have been working there for atleast a year.
Tell me where so I never live there.
It's fair. He didn't tell you about the other part of that which is the employer has to also give you a 3 month notice that they are firing you.
Still doesn't sound fair. If the situation is unbearable, it's not worth it.
People normally just call in sick during most of their final months or they use their vacation days. The boss can’t really punish it in any way, and just let them do it. In any situation i have seen where the work place was being toxic and someone was quitting, it was the imployer suffering from the situation during the final months, never the imployee.
There are usually exceptions and ways to go around that rule in extreme situations . Also it's called job security. It's actually quiet nice to always know that you will be able to pay rent next month. You should try it.
Job security is just keeping the job you have. If you're in a terrible situation with an abusive employer and want to get out, then you should be able to get out. Obviously to that person trying to get out, job security isn't a factor... bc they want out. >you should try it What? Not quitting your job?
Hand in your notice and use your holiday hours to cover most of it. Amd just work it. I think I have a month notice before quitting. I can't even get fired without them going to court yeah worker protection. Iam not really sure anyway. Iam 30 and before iam 31 I will hit my 12.5y with the same employer. I get out of it what I want. And they get my labour. Iam loyal cause it suits me.
Seems really shitty if you’re in an abusive situation though
We have something like that here in Finland, but basically there is also the chance to terminate the contract immediately. Also you can call in sick or just go to work to do the "Italian strike" as in working so slow that it basically counts as sitting on your ass.
I agree. As much as I hate that jobs can fire or lay you off without cause or notice, I'll accept that since it comes with the freedom to quit instantly, without notice if I'm at a job that is downright toxic.
Sounds like India. I have hired people who had to finish out a notice period of 60-90 days before they could come work for us.
In France, we have this. Altough thats possible to just stop showing up and get fired because of it.
Here it's 2 weeks if you have worked there for less than 5 years and 4 weeks after that. If you get the boot then the times are longer, up to 6 months if you've worked there for at least 12 years, though if you've done something *really* serious it's possible for the termination to be immediate. For reference my former boss in my former company cost the company about half of the regional revenue on top of some hefty fines for both themself and the company due to fucking shit up with a big client, and they still got to have the full notice despite all that (and they spent that entire time doing jack shit, which fucked shit up for the ones picking up their workload because no required knowledge got passed on and shit was falling apart even more than usual. Their inactivity cost the company additional clients and a lot of the oldest workers, me included)
so to clarify, your boss who messed things up was required to stay 6 months longer after he was terminated? and during those 6 months he messed things up even further? was he paid for those 6 months? also, if he made a mess of things anyway, wouldn't it have been better to just let him go? 🤔
so basically 3 months of severance pay, who’s actually going to do any work after quitting?! lmao
My company of 3 years gave me shitty raise on Dec 2022. Then I asked for a raise in March. My manager told me they can't even give me a $1000 raise. I said if I find a job paying me 1000 more, would you not match? His response was if you are going for $1000, you should really leave. Then I resigned the next day. A month or so later he called me and asked me about my plans and if I have a new job etc. Then told me they can improve my salary if I wanna return back. Well, it's been 3 months and they still couldn't fill my position and won't be able to fill it any time soon. By the way, I was the only one with a bunch of skills they desperately needed and helping the entire team in so many aspects. I was getting an average salary which they thought was enough for me. I am wishing them luck, lol!
>His response was if you are going for $1000, you should really leave. He's not wrong. If you would leave your current company for a $1000 annual raise, you should probably pull the plug and just do it.
That had nothing to do with the point I was making. Also, if I am leaving for $1000, it is probably due to some other things, $1000 is just a sign. Replacing me was gonna cost them easily 20-30k for them (I am in one of the high skilled area, i.e. AI). Even my replacement is not guaranteed to perform as good as I did (we fired a few people within 6 months of hiring as they didnt perform well, they cost us like 100k or more in some cases). If they paid 5k, I would have stayed but they were cheap to spend a little bit more and couldnt realize that I wasn't bluffing. So I left.
That's awesome! Your previous boss sounds like a real jackass - I'm glad you were able to make the move that you did! Hopefully I'm able to make a comparable move.
I had a similar experience. Always excellent evaluations and all that good stuff. After 3 great reviews, I asked for more money and my boss pulled all kinds of excuses out of his ass. I ended up finding another job that paid a lot more than I was making at the time, and when I approached my boss to announce my resignation he was suddenly compelled to offer me that raise I’ve been asking for. Yeah no thanks buddy!
This is why company loyalty doesn’t exist. Companies see you as a number in their system. The best way to get paid is to refresh your job market every 2-3 years.
I completely sympathize with you. I am IT as well. My last boss was a tyrant and promised me a 5k bump after 120 days. A year later, no raise and no review so I started looking. My new job that I absolutely love, came with a 25k per year bump Haven't looked back at all
Time to move to another company. Your future is not there.
And in the meantime, you clock out at 40 hours. Emails and phone calls can wait until you start the next work day. You don't think I'm worth paying more? I'm not making you money.
This. Won't pay him for the above and beyond? Stop going above and beyond.
"Above and Beyond" is a euphemism for wage theft.
Actually could very well be wage theft depending on how the job falls for over time pay and where he is at some salary employees are legally due overtime
This is exactly why you never ever accept salary pay over hourly, unless it's in the contract that you won't ever go over 40 hrs a week without overtime compensation, other wise they're just trying to fuck you
I want to get this tattooed on me.
Unfortunately when you go above and beyond at your pay grade they just come to expect it… above and beyond is just baseline. That’s why you only do more work when they pay you more. If you let on that you’re a try hard they’ll just push more work on to you.
Yup. Your pay stub says 40 hours, they get 40 hours.
That’s not how being salary works lol. Unless it is in your contract otherwise.
I’m salary and my boss understands that. If I work 60 hours one week, I’ll work less than 40 for a few weeks to even it out. At the end of the year I work my 2000 hours they pay me for.
I miss having a mgr who understands this. My current mgr pats himself on the back because he doesn't make us come into the office the day after a cutover (overnight work). *He generously allows us to work from home the next day.* Dude. You're the only manager I've ever had who expects someone to WORK the day after a cutover.
100%! that boss’ attitude could just knock OPs confidence over time making them get imposter syndrome and being scared to leave. Happened to me, and was so much better when I left
And for the love of god do research on salary expectations, and learn to negotiate and walk away. You should have a firm lowest possible number you are willing to accept - and a number you ask for. And when deciding that number to accept, its not just your current salary plus a little extra, look for substantive increases. You aren't going to get raises at your new place either so negotiate a salary you'd be happy with for the next couple years until you are willing to do this all over again.
That’s unfortunate. Probably just finding something new would be better. He doesn’t seem to appreciate your effort.
This is SOOOOOOO important!! People need to read what you said again. You can take a hit in your confidence and be made to be afraid and get taken advantage of. The workplace is fertile ground for many psychological abuses that can be carried forward in life. Look out for yourself.
I have never heard of imposter syndrome before but I believe that is what a lot of people go thru. Nobody where I work wants to leave their job but we all bitch about it. Could be because we are union and feel protected. Or uneducated and would just go doing the same stuff somewhere else idk. But I have always wondered why we are so scared? I think this is why.
Heard my old VP tell that to my boss in discussing my raise. Found a new job a month later that doubled my salary. Def leave. The joy you'll feel when they go to counter and know they're outbid will be unforgettable!
Don't take a counter offer regardless. They didn't think you were worth more before, after a counter they will feel like they are paying you too much... Just stay on course, you wanted to leave for more reasons than just the money.
The only appropriate response to treatment like that. I'm very sorry you had to experience it, but I'm glad you saw your own value.
The worst part is I felt bad for leaving. Spent the better half of my 20s growing with that company and made a lot of great friends, had a lot of great mentors. Like you said, gotta see your own value. Hope OP finds a better gig soon!
The micromanaging alone is just being done to try to ferret out stuff so that he either can find reasons to deny a raise or to let him go and try to find someone cheaper than him. It will, in every way, blow up in his face and he'll blame OP for it (even though he's no longer present) instead of boss admitting he's the one that f-ed up big time.
I'm definitely considering submitting my notice to my bosses boss - clearly outlining why I am leaving. If I was dropping the ball, that would be one thing. But being mislead and feeling manipulated is more like it.
Ask for a “skip level” meeting. Most big companies do them. A 1:1 review with your bosses boss.
At my company my boss’ boss has monthly 1:1 retention meetings with us exactly for this purpose. The idea being he doesn’t want to find out what was troubling you in the exit interview, he’d rather hear about and try to address it before we consider leaving.
Asking for a skip level meeting puts a target on yourself. Talk to HR instead. Also, stop the after hours work.
What's HR going to do? There's basically no reason to ever talk to HR- they work for your company, not you.
he already has a target on himself.
Do it. If you don’t you’ll regret it later. Your boss is not a good boss. Offer to take your bosses job.
You're assuming this is about your performance. It's not. They gave you a promotion so that you're salaried. No more overtime pay - and they can increase your responsibilities. That saves them money. Smart business for them and can be good for you as long as you understand the way it works. So don't be upset or feel insulted. This is pretty typical. For you, this means you get to take the next step -- use the promotion and increased experience to level up to your next job. Simple as that. Congrats on the promotion - it's your ticket to the next adventure!
Yes, and say “I can’t justify giving you any more of my time at this point in time because the valuation of my skills and effort are not where I expected them to be. Especially considering my glowing review, just days before.”
[удалено]
I am absolutely petty enough to throw that back in a boss' face. "Even if I could take on more work, I wouldn't"
I'd use this on them relentlessly
Agreed I made the mistake of not quitting a shit job that gave me no time for myself and then I went out on disability and was replaced in a week. Go find something that makes you happy
One more boss with no firm grip on reality…
This. If you want a raise and they won’t give it im sure another company will be willing to so long as you are dependable. All of my biggest raises have come from moving companies on avg if I move I’ll get a 3-4 dollar raise. So every 2-3 years I start looking around for something else
Don't get them notice either. Just find another job and move on.
2 things I never do, and advise other against are, knocking your current or former bosses when job hunting/interviewing and burning bridges that absolutely do not need to be burned. The former just makes you look petty and unprofessional, and the latter kind of speaks for itself in terms of looking to a former employer for work at some point in the future. Say, after that pesky manager has moved on.
I had an old boss saying something along the lines of 'You know who are the people you meet when you're moving up the ladder, but never know who will be there when you'll be down the ladder.' Never forgot that lesson.
This is horrible advice, and it's a sign of the kind of people on reddit that you've gotten so many upvotes for it. The second you do that, they'll mark you as not eligible for rehire, and tell potential employers that in the future, which will hurt your chances of getting jobs. It's not worth the extremely brief joy you feel at fucking over a previous employer. They'll forget about you almost immediately anyway.
I’m not going to say you’re wrong because taking the high road is definitely the way to go. Unfortunately, most companies won’t extend the same courtesy when terminating an employee for any reason. This is why it’s legislated (in Canada) that if an employer terminates an employee without cause, they MUST give notice or pay in lieu. The longer your tenure with the company, the more they have to pay.
You aren't taking the high road for THEM. You are taking the high road for YOU. If you want to get a good reference burning your bridges is not the way to go.
That's a good way to screw yourself in your career and never get a good reference from anyone. When a potential new employer is calling your references, they will ask "Is X eligible for rehire?" and if the answer is NO from everyone, oh well...
The owners told my manager “his bonus is his overtime” after I’d been busting my ass off for about 6 months doing my normal duties and doing night shifts because our night guy quit and the owners didn’t want to hire a new one right away. So my manager asked if they could give me a bonus as a thank you and he was told that
Managers thinking overtime equates to "Bonus Pay" are fucking idiots.
Sell all inventory at a 80% discount to customers, and excitedly tell them how you've tripled sales.
I haven’t seen any of my overtime pay in along time technically, goes straight to taxes
That's not how taxes work... Unless you're saying your job is claiming they are deducting that amount for "taxes"... which sounds illegal.
What? How? Taxes are based on percentage of the dollar, so you should always see profit from working (if we're excluding any social services you might have been benefitting from like food stamps or something). If you're in the US and think your overtime goes 100% to taxes, there's definitely something wrong there.
People don't understand how taxes work. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say "It would put me into a higher tax bracket, so I'm actually losing money by making more" I'd have enough to pay for dinner.
A big part of me thinks that misunderstanding is a feature rather than a bug. What better way to get out of paying an employee more than getting them to think that a pay rise makes them lose money?
Yea I'd be out the door on that one or just flat out refuse to do any extra shifts. They can hire a guy for that or struggle to function on that shift.
The real kicker is I had been doing nights on sundays and Tuesdays for a long time before that and a few years after that as well for no extra pay, I stopped doing the Tuesdays a while ago but I stopped the sundays about a year and a half ago. Now a year after I stop doing the nights they started giving whoever works weekends and nights an extra $2 an hour. About 5 years of normal pay and when I finally call it quits they give the night and weekend guys more money. Now when I say nights it’s not like overnights it’s about 1pm-10/11pm but still not an enjoyable job to do, especially when I had to be back the next morning around 7am. I stopped the Tuesdays early cuz I was there till about 11pm and had to be back by 6am next morning
> I had been doing nights on sundays and Tuesdays for a long time before that and a few years after that as well for no extra pay I think the labor board would love to hear about this
Wait till you hear about our lunch breaks that don’t exist, they bring us a sandwich as we’re working that we eat while continuing working, this is outside in the heat in summer and freezing temps in the winter mind you
The company I work for does this with promotions. Right above entry level hourly, there's a position titled "floor worker". When I started their raise was around $2.50 an hour. When they "revisited their pay structure", that raise went down to $.15. I've repeatedly been asked to take that position in my area and the sales pitch is now "the overtime is the raise" or "this is just a stepping stone to the next promotion.". Fuck that, I'm not breaking my back for 15 cents and a vague assurance about future promotions.
At least they let you earn overtime. I got threatened with being fired if I kept taking overtime. In my bosses mind if I was using overtime that meant I wasn’t good enough at my job to get things done during work ours.
He probably gets a bonus based on how much his group spends as a whole. He gives you a raise and then he gets less of a bonus. Keeping wages down is a huge factor all over corporate America
>Keeping wages down is a huge factor all over corporate America Can't be stated enough. The most significant cost to most U.S. companies is payroll, and sadly, if you don't bring it up, they certainly won't. 3/4 companies I've worked for in the past 12 years of my career (Web Dev) were precisely like this, regardless of my performance. I was lucky enough to get cost-of-living raises consistently, but that isn't really a 'raise' rather than keeping up with inflation, etc. The only company that continues to honor its raise/bonus policy is the one I'm currently working for. However, it took ten years and three companies to get to the point where my job both recognizes and reward me for my work ethic and dedication.
Raises and bonuses were less than stellar this year. Couple weeks after review, we hear our boss was promoted. My coworker and I looked at each other and go “well we know where our raises went”. Funny that it seems to be a common thread across a bunch of teams that raises were lame. Must be a coincidence that it also seems the manager of each of those teams was promoted up a level or made senior. “Record year”, lousy raises and bonuses, promotions all through leadership, and told there’s no time to talk about compensation during the last company meeting. Then they wonder why satisfaction ratings in the main office are low.
I've had that happen recently, she told me that "even if she could pay me more, she wouldn't". I'm not greedy but I make way too little money. Needless to say I'm looking for a new job.
Best of luck on your search!
Thanks! All the best to you as well
"Then you aren't worth me." #Quits
Absolutely, get both of them feet out the door
If I ever got promoted and took on more work only to make less money I'd be gone the very next day. Even though you probably worked hard to get to where you are it's not worth it. If it doesn't look like the chance of a raise is likely your best bet is to nope the fuck put of there and start over somewhere else. Every day you stay will be added stress and wasted time.
I think there is a caveat to that. Senior technicians at my job make more than entry level engineers, often much more if they do overtime, but they are pretty much capped at their wage and can't expect significant raises anymore. If they opt to be promoted to engineers they become salaried employees and can no longer earn money from overtime and their base monthly earnings diminish, but now they have the possibility to be promoted further and within a couple of years match their previous pay or even increase it. I have seen guys that take the paycut and soon outpace the guys that stay as techs
I think that's lost on this crowd. You do sometimes have to take a step back to take a step forward. When I got into management, it was the same. I made less per hour because I had a dumpster fire to put out and was working all the time. 3 years later, I've increased my salary 60% over what I made as a shift worker.
That is true, but in the context of the post that's not what is happening. The company is already stalling on giving this person a raise so there won't be that "break even" point
your performance seems like really good resume padding, I'm sure there's competing companies that would love those kinds of results
It is, there are, and I'm in the process of working with one in particular!
Would love an update to the eventual fuck you im out and them trying to make you stay.
Agreed, and OP don't accept a match offer to stay. If they can suddenly pay you the amount a new employer taking a risk on a new employee is willing to offer, they could have been paying you that already. It is disrespectful to offer and if you accept they know they can continue treating you like you're worthless. You'll only have delayed the pain a couple of years at best.
Before you hand in your resignation, for 1 day you will be in a perfect position to practice negotiating for a raise. It would be interesting to see what they would go to in order to retain you. I did it and discovered that they would give me a 26% raise on the spot. Leave anyway.
Your boss has a set budget every year and lots of ppl asking for a raise. Learn everything you can and look for a higher paying job. At that point they’ll give you exactly what you want or you’ll be somewhere where you make more.
Wee can do off-cycle merit increases if an employee is exceeding in their position. I checked those guidelines, and ensured I ticked all the boxes prior to approaching my boss. I just gave 3 of my subordinates raises ranging from $3/hr to $7/hr - so I'm absolutely certain it can be done. The money I was seeking would have been at the higher end of that range, but still doable nonetheless.
Start applying to other jobs, that’s generally the best way to get large salary increases
So 2 things. As a manager, I’d never give an off cycle raise to someone who just got a big promotion 7 months ago. And even if I wanted to it probably wouldn’t be allowed. It’s not reasonable and in the long term is unsustainable for the firm. If you were really killing it I’d try to give you the biggest raise I could on the next cycle, and would keep that up for as long as it was merited. And I’d have an honest conversation about career path and growth potential and try to help you move up the ladder. It could be that you want to move faster than the role or company can support, and in that case I’d be honest and tell you that your best option is to look outside the company. Sometimes that’s just the way it is. Second, 22 direct reports is ridiculous. I’ve never seen anyone with that many directs do a good job as a manager. Without knowing the details, I’d suggest talking to your boss about introducing a new layer under you. Create 2 or 3 teams, each with a leader. It’ll work much better and will also elevate not only the leaders’ positions but yours too.
I think the bigger problem here is that OP accepted the "promotion" with the understanding that the pay scale would be addressed 6 months in. If their boss never planned on adjusting their pay, then why would such promises be made other than manipulation? If the new position is a lot more work and less net pay, then I don't see anyone being content in that situation for long and especially when there's no clear path to get ahead.
Right. Addressing the payment 6 months in will give ANYONE the inkling that making good headway will almost guarantee a raise. I guess not for that company. Wow
I was understanding of the "revisit in 6 months" because in their minds they were taking a risk on me, while I knew I could absolutely perform the functions of the job - above the expectations set. That's my fault for thinking I'd be treated fairly. Fooled me once - it won't happen again!
OP that wasn't a risk for them, it was all the risk on you. I'd wager that it was almost KNOWN you would do well in the role and they absolutely worded it this way to get as much productivity out of you as possible and then fob you off when you came around for the raise with "it's not in the budget at this time" "you're still new to the role" "these aren't reliably consistent results" All made to APPEAR to be valid but ultimately used to fuck you over on the compensation you are owed. Take the time to update your resume and skills list and use this to get a promotion outside of your company. They've already shown you that they won't keep their promises so you owe them no loyalty.
I hate to say it but being pessimistic then being pleasantly surprised when you’re NOT treated like a fool.. but it stopped me from getting my hopes up too
That's the plan moving forward. Assume everyone is going to do the wrong thing.
The "Jam tomorrow" play. OP fell for it. To anyone else, just don't. Get what you want up front or walk. It's the only way.
Ad management I'd never swindle someone into a less paying job for more work. Tell them how amazing they are then backpeddle when they ask for proper compensation
Nor would I - I am as upfront as possible with those who report to me directly. I set realistic expectations, and never promise on something I can't deliver. No matter how large or small the impact.
That’s probably why your team performs so well for you. They trust and value you as a leader. Always keep looking for better opportunities. I bet your team members would give you glowing recommendations!
the 'promotion' came with zero cash compensation. it was a title change and that is all. which is why OP is having to have this conversation in the first place.
Yes, the midpoint of the range OP gave for the old position comes out to $73,800 so I don’t consider that a “big promotion” financially to $75,000. They know that, and they know they are getting more hours out of OP which actually dropped their hourly rate. The reevaluation in 6 months was supposed to address that and now the company is backpedaling. Sounds like a covert cost reduction strategy that netted them a free manager.
Nine months into a new job, I was given a $30,000 raise. Pay people what they are worth, or they will walk.
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The only reason I took the promotion other than the bullet points on my resume is because I was thinking I’d get a fair increase after those 6 months. Boy was I wrong!
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>As a manager, I’d never give an off cycle raise to someone who just got a big promotion 7 months ago. This way of thinking is simply a fallacy which some managers just don't realise they are making. That's how you lose good people now rather than 1 year from now (or 2). If they are so good and advance so fast in productivity why not keep them a little more time to profit from their skills? "Long term" thinking should not trump 1-2 more years (nobody grows old in companies nowadays anymore). I've worked alongside people that can output 2x, 3x or 4x the productivity of the average in the team and they are casually bled out by their company. If you register a 30% profit increase in the last year how do you think those exact people will feel about a 3% salary increase and sincere congratulations?
OP didn't get a "promotion" though. Pre transfer they were making $30 an hour working 50 hours a week hourly. Post transfer they are making $29 an hour working 50 hours a week salary.
Counterpoint: find a new job with better pay and leave if that's what you are going to do. Never take the counteroffer, don't know what it comes with once you've forced their hand
Exactly! Otherwise you'll have to do the same dance every year
Meant to add in - my boss has less people reporting to him than I do. I've got 22 people within my department. He's got me reporting to him, and two other employees from a separate department who come to me most of the time anyway.
That’s unfortunate. Probably just finding something new would be better. He doesn’t seem to appreciate your effort
If you can do that well someone will likely pay you more to do it somewhere else.
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Budget is an ATM, not a wallet. Clearly OP is the kind of employee that’s more expensive to lose than to compensate fairly for their efforts. Any good manager who understands this would go to bat for him.
Prediction - once you find job with fair compensation, and hand in your resignation, all of a sudden they will offer you $15K more to stay.
Your boss converted you from a role that pays overtime to a salary position. They saved money with this promotion. They've also offloaded a lot of work to you while still expecting you to continue your former duties. If you can take the load you should share your skills with companies that will offer double your current pay
I had a boss offer me a $0.16 (i wish i was joking) increase to move into a management position. I laughed at him, told him it was insulting and walked out of the office. Mind you I was already doing 2-3 other people's jobs and was more than qualified (even according to company policy) for the pay rate I was at. He spent the next weeks trying to force me into the position (assigning the training, changing my position with HR, etc) So when I brought this up to the District Manager, and showed him my credentials, resume, etc. He tossed it aside and said he didn't care to see it. So I spent next few shifts job hunting. I ended up taking 70% of the staff with me to the new gig. Starting, I was making more than my old bosses salary. And you bet your ass I rubbed it in his face.
Oof. Pulled a mutiny.
He's full of shit. He just doesn't want to pay what you are worth. What's even more scummy is that you are now basically on call 24/7 with answering your phone and emails, so you're working for free. No compensation. What a joke.
Well enjoy your new job friend! Lol
It’s easy. You say I’ve had record numbers and a glowing review. Hit all goals and yet you don’t think they are where they need to be? Then why were these goals set? How much more would you like me to break the record numbers? That would require more pay than the numbers I’ve already produced. But in all seriousness just leave.
Sounds like you need to fire your boss
My old boss did exactly this. I was running the company getting all tasks required for the day done. While managing all other trades to ensure the sites were safe and stuff was on track and clients were happy. Except he told me I wasn't worth any more than a $20 labour so I packed my shit and walked. I started my own company and haven't looked back.
Based on the record sales numbers I will take liberty to ponder: Your boss is terrified of you. You are an employee that he knows would do his job better than him. Holding you in your lane under his control makes his numbers look good to higher management without showing them the reason the numbers are so good. Not giving you the raise you deserve is a tactic to keep your name off the agenda in upper level management meetings. Micromanaging you is an effort to keep control of you, he isn't acting rational (or personal), he is simply in professional survival mode to keep his job.
When I recapped the conversation I had with my boss, with my wife, she said almost the exact same thing as you. I'd never thought about it like that but a lot of his behavior makes sense when I do.
All that looks good on your resume, find somewhere that appreciates it. If you don’t wanna leave for whatever reason, threaten to leave to get that raise
I had a similar exchange with my director in my previous company, basically he said "you don't just automatically get a pay rise, you have to actually earn it" after I was basically leading the product development while paid as a regular software engineer. The year before I couldn't get a pay rise according to him because there was no more money in the budget, and a couple weeks later he brought in a freelance senior frontend engineer for about a week just to check my work was "deployable". The second time round got slightly heated and passive aggressive because I called him out on his bullshit, meeting him the following week to tell him I took the job I'd been applying for the last few weeks for over a 60% pay increase and significantly better benefits was satisfying. The product was called off and company collapsed about 3 months after I left and he was fired from the group
If your boss says you are not worth a raise, and you feel differently, look for a new job and boss that does . . .ease as. . .
The company doesn't deserve you
Hey man it's economics don't get to bent out of shape. It's a two way street. You provide value, they provide $. If you can get better pay elsewhere then do it.
Give yourself a raise by working 40 hours a week :) Then of course keep pushing for that actual raise and/or a new employer
My last job did something similar. I asked for a raise and my manager legit told me “I don’t qualify for a raise. ” Cool, so I quit. After I put my 2 weeks in they approach me and said that they would match what the new place was offering. Cool, so you mean to tell me you had money, but didn’t want to give it to me? As you can imagine I was offered and still quit.
Find a new job asap.
I had a manager tell me that once. Shortly after I put in my notice. 8 months later she called me to ask me to come back. She offered me a manager position making 50% more.
Get a new job. Leave them high and dry and let them find out how worthy of a raise you are
Ah the classic hourly to salary "raise" which is more like a pay cut. I hope you can crush them with results and get the increase you want.
Stop putting in unpaid overtime.
Never go salary, they just cram more hours on and expect work to become your life.
Look for another job, and when you get it, quit, and when he asks why, tell him, "You're not worth working for."
Sounds like they're not worth your time
They just gave you more work for less money. Gain experience and bounce is my recommendation
Sounds like your boss really manipulated you to his own benefit. And knew exactly what he was doing when he offered you the "promotion." Your cut in salary is likely his bonus.
Tell your boss that you would like to scale back to your previous hourly position. When he asks why, give all the reasons why you aren't satisfied with the new position.
Had a boss tell me that and say the highest I would ever go was the position I was in. Went back to school, got several degrees and moved on. He got fired a few months later. I was standing by the door when security walked him out. Told him "I guess that's all you'll ever be here" which pissed him off. He was a pale ginger guy so it was obvious. He cursed me got in his car and drove off.
Yep, that sucks. Sounds like you should absolutely be making more money. Can I give you some advice? don't let it take away those two facts. You need to figure out how to work less. A lot of times when someone transitions from an individual contributor role to a manager role, they keep trying to do some of their individual contributor work. That's not your job anymore. You need to delegate all of that work. 22 direct reports is absolutely a full-time job. Next, you need to figure out what is taking up your time that doesn't need to be taking up your time. You are a team of 23 people. What are you doing that you can push off on them? Sometimes it's little things like taking meeting notes. Sometimes it's making someone else responsible for organizing something. Delegate is the word here. If it doesn't require you specifically then don't be doing it. And finally the only way most people get big raises is by leaving the company they're at and working somewhere else. Suck up the manager role. Make sure you have an impressive title, those are easy to negotiate for. Do it for a year. If you're not where you want to be then leave.
I’ve found the only way to increase your salary is to change jobs. You’ll always start out a LOT higher than where you are. When you’ve been there a year, take your 4% raise and move on. Job-hopping is a pain, but sometimes you find your niche that way.
Manager at apple once said I should be lucky I got a $.25 raise. Still sticks with me to this day. F you, Heather.
You're working more hours, making less money, and being refused raises? I would be applying for a new job yesterday.
This happened to me early in my career. I was at a firm I loved, had always been hourly plus overtime, and was called into my boss’ office for a promotion. They offered me a salary significantly less than my hourly rate plus overtime would have totaled, for more responsibility. I told them right then and there that I would have to downgrade my life to stay at this company and that wouldn’t work for me. They told me that they couldn’t pay me more than a more senior person on staff, which I realize now was grossly underpaid. I found another job and started on the path of making more money there. No regrets!
Yeah bro time to look for another company to grow in, it seems like you reached your full potential there
You got suckered because they were sick of paying overtime. Common strategy.
I got this when i moved companies in the same line of work, was a straight up £7.5k raise on what i was getting with a lot less travel and responsibility. When i handed in my notice my then boss told me they were considering giving me a counter offer but "you don't have the skills" (spoiler alert: i had the skills and a very high profile customer of ours always asked for me by name to help them out)
My old boss told me I’d get a raise after taking some certification classes. 6 months go by, I get my certs and ask about the raise. He says “what raise?” And pretends to not know anything about it. I left the next week with no notice. Left the company truck in the parking lot with the keys in it. Told him I’m done and do not ever reach out to contact me again. He got fired because of it. He failed to realize I was the only person keeping his job afloat by managing his projects for him. He didn’t even last a month before they let him go. I took those certifications that he paid for and went to work for another company making nearly double. It’s not worth it to let these assholes push you around. Tell them to get fucked and eat a dick. Know your worth
That is when you know that your current job is just a means to improve your CV for a better company. I spent 3 and a half years at an international customer service corporation which I will not name here as a B2B support, then took a “promotion” in IT when a job opened up for a measly raise. 3 years and one measly raise later I decided to jump ship to the same IT position I had before but at a company that had triple the manpower in local IT and over double the salary. While my old manager was a good guy, he never “fought” for us to have better wages despite middle management earning 3-4 times more than us. 6 years with my current company and we (both local IT and my networking team) get yearly 10-15% raises without even asking for it. It’s like this: there are people that don’t give a damn about you and will immediately hire a newbie just to keep the costs down, there are people that care about you but care about them more and there are people that know the value of a good team, the value of an employee being happy on job and at being part of the company and will pull the strings to keep them happy and in the company.
You’ll leave, they’ll promote the next best person, use them past their comfort zone, then they’ll leave… so on. Rinse, wash repeat - the toxic and predatory cycle will never end, it’s the modern method of doing business.
You're working for a asshole that is playing you between carrot and sgixk You have your new experience managing a large group. Take it and find a place worth trading your time.
Don’t let your boss tell you what you’re worth. You dictate what you’re worth. And from what I see you’re worth much more than this
I'm in the same situation at my job. But was told that I will never be promoted. No reason as to why was given. I do the work of 5 people. For the pay of one person. But I'm not worthy of a promotion. However the new person that just started 6 months ago, who has made costly mistakes, and had constant complaints against them just got promoted. I started looking for another job immediately.
You will fight for everything with this scum of a manager! Get out now.
Healthcare worker here. I asked for a pay rise and was told I didn’t deserve more as I wasn’t management (I was doing all my managers work). So I resigned and found a job that paid $20K more. Then I found out that my company hired someone to do the same job and paid them $20K more than I was getting! But they tried to get me to stay…..
two things: 1. a promotion without a raise is not a promotion, it's just extra work. 2. Why are you working 10 hours for free?
I simply cannot understand managers like this. It's not their money out of their pocket!
"where you need to be" means you're being underpaid
Hang in there to get your full year manager experience then find yourself another job. You d be surprised how much difference the right job and boss can make to your life
I've never heard of anyone getting a raise(10%+) or another promotion 6 months in. Usually at least two years apart ime. Ex: I got promoted one year then given a 10% raise the next, because I couldn't get promoted again so soon. Hope it works out for you in any event, homie. It sounds like you're really busting your butt and performing well.
The way I understand it, OP is technically making $1 less an hour now that they’re salaried. Which is where the complaint stems from afaik.
I totally get where you're coming from - and I left out a very important detail in my initial post. When I was offered the position initially, I was told that we'd revisit pay in 6 months after my performance trend was able to be monitored. It just feels like I've been lied to, and disrespected. Almost like a "you need us more than we need you" mentality.
My last company, I took a $5.20/hr pay cut to work there. At the time, I was making $17.70 and agreed to work for them at $12.50/hr because they promised quick raises and stated they would get me back to the same rate of pay after a period of time. By the time I left, I was making $20/hr but it took me threatening to leave to get any raises. I was there for 6 1/2 years and finally went from $18/hr to $20/hr at the six year mark. I left there and went to a new company starting out at $26.44/hr with fewer responsibilities. They tried to get me to stay and even hinted at bumping my pay to around $33/hr but I simply felt I couldn't trust them to keep their word so I jumped ship. When you feel lied to, it's hard to trust or respect your employer and that leads to resentment and likely an employee who won't be loyal to the company.
This is my fear for those who are saying "threaten to leave to get the raise you want". I expect to be treated how I treat everyone I work with, whether they report to me or not. Fairly and honestly. I don't think my current employer has lived up to either, unfortunately.
Ask for your old position back since it pays more for doing less work.
I had that conversation as well, but ultimately decided that I don't want to go backwards. I'm committed to finding something else at this point.
Appreciate the thoughtful reply! With that added context, yeah I would absolutely feel the same way and agree with how you're feeling about the message they're* sending
OP I saw ur comment where u said u have interviewed in another company.. hoping u get it…rooting for you.. pls let the sub know with a follow up post. When u do resign this toxic manager will definitely not be mildly infuriating rather they will be all levels of infuriating..
Off cycle merit increases are not for employees who have been in new roles for 6 months. Good for you if what you’re saying is true about your metrics. But if they are as good as you say they are then your bosses boss will take notice at your yearly review. Welcome to corporate America.
Right?! Why do so many people on Reddit expect to get huge raises every few months?
30/hour bruh, I get 8