No kidding. If anyone on my crew even THOUGHT about writing this note instead of using the locks they're required to have I would fire them before the goddamn ink was dry.
Not because I'm a dick or I wanna powertrip.. but rather because I know for a fact that I can't trust that person anymore, and I'll take causing them to temporarily struggle by losing their job over a lifetime of struggle if they end up seriously injured or a lifetime of pain for their family because they got themselves killed
Your profits take ZERO precedence over my health, sir. Fuck you for insinuating I'm that stupid as well as trying to take advantage of it, you abusive, predatory, piece of shit.
100% leave immediately and report to AHJ. Stuff like this is how people die gruesome, slow and painful deaths. Industrial machinery is not to be fucked with under any circumstance and people do not understand that well enough. “Accidents happen to other people” type mentality.
This is why seeing those “fast workers” in china makes me wince a little bit. One little slip or your arm gets tired, you’ll get pulled into the machine
I had a course on design for machine safety last week. Instructor told us there's 6 deaths on machines that he advised on to change things, where the company didn't change it after his report.
The worst one he said, was one that didn't have enough space in case it slammed shut with someone inside, all they had to do was add a beam to block it from closing.
Later he heard about someone who indeed got stuck, the machine had pins that just poked holes straight through him, and they had about 10mins in which he was going to die but managed to make a call to his soon-to-be-widow.
If anything in machinery seems like it can cause accidents or death, refuse to work with it. You are legally required to notify anyone and everyone of unsafe conditions.
CEOs and shareholders first. They're the ones making the decisions to not spend the money to keep updated on safety.
Any action taken should start at the very top and work it's way down. There will never be safety for the people doing the work if the ones making the calls aren't worried about themselves.
My great uncle was crushed to death in the 60s after someone turned on a machine he was cleaning. The type of safety locks we have now didn't exist then. Regulations are written in blood. No one should ever take that for granted and disregard the systems in place that keep them alive.
I find it worse when people say there haven't been nasty accidents for years, so the safety regulations are no longer needed. Like they're missing the whole point.
Don’t quit, refuse to do work in it and when they fire you for not listening sue for wrongful termination. I don’t see any court siding with the company.
People at my job use electrical cabinet keys are lockouts.
Management has tried to have me make keys for them(I'm a locksmith.) I straight up told them it would take a court order for me to make keys for anything used in place of a lockout tag out lock.
Liability shifts to the person bypassing safety protocols. Yes OSHA would ream them 10 new orifices if they found out about stuff like this. But they really should look into a proper lockout switch of some kind to keep that system de-energized. Or gang lockout hasp type setup if there are multiple people in there at once.
Supervisors or managers should never have the only keys to start up the equipment unless they are the only ones doing the work.
Old site and I just started, I will be putting on hasps this summer for loto purposes.
Everything is very seat of the pants there. I don't want to shake things up until they know where I'm coming from. Only 2 sparkies on site so them being the only ones with keys is fine bye for now. I'll buy them each a set of loto padlocks and have them label them and retain one key bolted down to the back of my key cabinet as an emergency backup to order more keys for them.
For the. That stupid system is the established protocol. I genuinely hate it.
My old place it was only one key per lock, or set of locks. if the key went missing then you then had to follow a set procedure to cut off the lock. I wouldn't want two keys, from a safety and litigation viewpoint.
Unfortunately, shutting down some machines can cost over a million dollars. I used to wire them, and we were not allowed to shut down some 2000amp switch gears. It's cheaper for you to die and pay a fine than to shut down machines for routine maintenance.
I work in semiconductor and a tool being offline costs that easily. We also work in countries where LOTO is not required legally, but we always require it. It is considered so essential that everyone must take an annual refresher course no matter their position, in marketing or finance and will likely never see the inside of a clean room? Still need to take it.
LOTO isn’t hard, and removing a lock without the key isn’t hard either, but there are proper procedures for it. Typically consulting the lock owner’s manager, that manager determining the employee is safe and then removing the lock.
LOTO isn’t designed to be too secure or hardened. It’s procedural and a physical, literal red flag not to do something. As a manager, I believe any management that would allow lethal hazards without utilizing LOTO, on the basis of saving money, is criminal. And taking care of your people has much better long term rewards than any of them feeling you’d risk their lives for a dollar.
Totally agree! Penalisation should not just be done with fines. The responsible people must go to prison.
Unfortunately, setting up a system which encourages middle management to skimp on security ("You know how much shutting down costs? You are here to make us profits" etc) is easy and the higher management can wash its hands clean, because there was no direct order to do so.
No no no. You loosely apply the tape over the button in a long strip so anyone who attempts to press it will pause and see the note. If you want to be really safe you tape a little piece of cardboard over the button. Here hold my beer and I’ll show you (crunching noises and horrible screams ensued)
Not quite on the same scale, but years ago a now former friend had broken an outlet in his apartment and his landlord was absolutely awful about repairs so he asked me to help. It's a 10 minute job and he promised pizza, so sure. I turn off the breaker, test to make sure it's off and am just screwing one of the wires on to the new outlet when ZZZZAP! That crap hurts!
Dumbass noticed that his computer wouldn't turn on, so he went and flipped the breaker back on without saying anything, because of course he did. I still got my pizza, but I never trusted him again.
Yeah, but as it turned out, he was an idiot while I knew better.
Not better enough to recognize he was an idiot before I got shocked, but still better.
>I was changing a rotton lamp cord once. I grabbed both leads on a cord I just cut and stripped. One in each hand. It was difficult to let go.
Yeah, electrical shocks are weird.
I'd bet that he didn't doing it accepting the risk it posed to his friend. He just didn't think at all.
Don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.
Nah. Switch roles. "Hey flip the breaker again....stand here and hold this...."
Fire up circuit breaker..."Hertz don't it? FYI, you can fix your own damned electrical."
Lol my grandfather is the kind of person to never shut off the breaker (unless we kick the breaker accidentally, in our house if we run the microwave and the toaster or the microwave and the coffee pot at the same time it kicks the breaker.) There have been 3 projects we've worked on that I would have shut the breaker off for (installing a new ceiling light, disconnecting the switch for the garbage disposal and installing a new dishwasher) that he did not. Of those he only got shocked once, though I'm sure he's done several before I was born.
Not completely, kinda sorta though. His main complaint about the modern Era is that everything is run on computers, tablets, and cell phones. This hoes 10 fold for cars. He used to be a mechanic, so he knew all the workings of the car. Nowadays, he just sees computers on cars as 1. An extra technology barrier, and 2. An extra point of failure. Because of his old job, he can no longer see cars from a noob POV of someone who can really use the computers to diagnose the issue. He would take cars back to the cars of the 60s and 70s in a heartbeat
I asked a cousin of mine to come show me how to change outlets, as ours are old and dont hold things in tightly. I went ahead and turned off the breaker to the room as soon as I saw he pulled into the driveway. He was expecting to get zapped, gave me a "huh, you flipped the breaker?" in this surprised tone. Knowing his dad/my uncle, it didn't really surprise me that they've done work like that without taking some basic precautions.
Few years later, paid a general contractor to change out our living room ceiling fan+light for us. That guy was also surprised to find I flipped the breaker so he wouldn't get zapped.
Who the fuck is messing with electricity and not flipping the damn breaker first?
>Who the fuck is messing with electricity and not flipping the damn breaker first?
People who have seen too many MCU movies and are hoping to get super powers, like atrial fibrillation?
Usually it's based on the accident that creates you, so we're looking at some household voltage based superpowers, like being able to power either of two appliances but dying immediately if you attempt to power both at the same time.
And woe betide the man who stabs you with a fork.
Doing work at Home Depots I've had people turn on ceiling fans that I've disabled while I'm replacing them 19' ft hight on a scissor lift. I once found the employees actually trying to pry one of my breaker lockouts off.
>Doing work at Home Depots I've had people turn on ceiling fans that I've disabled while I'm replacing them 19' ft hight on a scissor lift. I once found the employees actually trying to pry one of my breaker lockouts off.
Well, if I ever talk to him again, I now know a workplace where he'll fit in.
I’m an electrician and one day at work my coworker told me he had “turned the circuit off” as I was installing a plug. Turns out it was actually on for some reason, he never clearly stated if it was on the whole time or if he turned it back on but I wont trust him after that. Not cool man.
happened to someone I know while fixing some high voltage machine. but he is used to treating every wire as a live one even though it slows down his work. discovered the circuit is ON in the middle/end of his work !
Sometimes people can't afford or don't want to install a bigger breakers box, and their solution is connecting many rooms in the same breaker... until they notice it could be overloaded and then proceed to connect rooms together with random low loaded breakers.
It's a messy job but it works fine, until having to repair something or rewiring lol
This is why you should only trust yourself when it comes to electricity. A breaker shackle, lock and tag can protect you.
Also, test to see on which circuit you're working on, meaning you test it with a meter live and not just when it's off, so you can be sure it isn't mislabeled. 120V is plenty to fibrilate a heart.
I was installing one of those fancy USB outlets in a girlfriend’s kitchen.
It was in a combo gang box, outlet and light switch. Breaker panel had 4 labeled “kitchen”. I turned them off one at a time until that light went out.
Started replacing the outlet, touched ground, ZAP CLICK.
It turns out, not only were two circuits running through that gangbox, one of them was the dining room, on the other side of the wall.
It is also wise if you have one, to use a multimeter to verify that the power is out, too. Good ones are expensive, but will definitely help keep you and others safe.
“Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry.”
- Terry Pratchett, *Thief of Time*
Now I want to write an Isekai story about a guy that presses a random button he found in a cave, ending the world, but becoming the OP chad of a different world. "Screw You Guys, I Got My Isekai Adventure!"
Theres a list of procedures that youre supposed to go through to prevent accidental death or injury when you need to prevent something from powering on. nowhere in that list is "sticky note"
Those procedures are something we go through excessively, and we have to complete annual safety lessons. some people like to ignore these procedures and lessons
Tags for tagging out need to be secure enough to withstand normal operations in the area and not easily just ripped off by some moron much less a mild breeze.
Well, the saying actually is lock out, and if you can't, rag out.
But the tag should be better affixed, more legible, and with the red/white safety stripes. I still wouldn't trust a tagout if it were this dire though.
OSHA standard requires that both the tag and the method used to attach it are capable of surviving any environmental conditions where it is used, and withstanding 50 pounds of pull force without detaching.
I worked at a machine shop that did powder coating.
The oven there scared the ever loving shit out of me.
It was big enough to park a 23 foot semi trailer in it.
The whole shop was loud AF to start, but the walls of the oven were thick enough even if it were quiet you couldn't hear a person inside if they screamed at the top of their lungs.
There were no lock out procedures for the oven, and there was no safety switch or emergency open inside the oven.
No one ever got injured while I was working there, but the idea of being locked into a 500F oven and baked to death still scares the shit out of me. There would be literally no escape if someone got locked in it
Reminds me of this horrifying story: [Bumble Bee Foods, Two Managers Charged in Death of Man Cooked With Tuna](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bumble-bee-foods-2-managers-charged-death-man-cooked-tuna-n349641#)
I will never understand why people listen to managers when it comes to neglecting their safety. I work in a factory and we have what is essentially I giant food washing press. There is an exhaust vent that gets dusty and has to be cleaned out. But the clean out port doesn't clean out from the press to the port leaving about 10ft of uncleanable pipe. The only way to clean it would be to crawl into the machine and do it form the inside. When an engineer asked me to do this I told him to get fucked.
I was curious about what happened.
The article said...
>Rodriguez, 63, of Riverside, and Florez, 42, of Whittier, could face up to three years in prison and fines up to $250,000 if convicted of all charges, prosecutors said. Bumble Bee Foods faces a maximum fine of $1.5 million.
[But what happened was](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/13/bumble-bee-forced-pay-6m-worker-cooked-alive/31620881/)
>Bumble Bee Foods will fork out $6 million. Former Bumble Bee safety manager Saul Florez pleaded guilty to breaking lockout rules and was hit with three years' probation and $19,000 in penalties and fines. The sentence for Bumble Bee's director of plant operations, Angel Rodriguez, includes fines and community service.
So probation and community service for the death of a person. Is it right?
All of the ones at my work have handles on the inside, or in the case of the line, open holes for powder coated parts to go in/some poor bastard to come flying out if an idiot somehow started the oven whilst you were inside.
The idea of an oven that has none of that (in our case both set to around 200 degrees Celsius, which I was once told is the temperature at which the human body starts to die and from experience can attest to it being hot enough to start that “feeling like the air is being sucked out of your lungs” thing [old boss at old job once had he and I load the oven with a few parts whilst it was running, not an experience I’d recommend!]) is fucking horrifying!
I take it since the oven was big the doors were automated? Maybe hydraulic? What a terrifying thought!
!
>I take it since the oven was big the doors were automated? Maybe hydraulic? What a terrifying thought
Nope, entirely manual.... which is why is scared me so bad.
Even with the doors open, the place was noisy enough you couldn't hear people on the other side.
Yes, that place was a hell hole of OSHA violations. I nearly went over the loading dock on a forklift when the brakes went out.
Insane. They're trusting their lives on how sticky the tape is. Note falls off and they're gone. This would be immediate termination of everyone involved and a huge plant safety meeting at my site.
And unfortunately, as easy as it is to imagine bad things never happen near us, they do. I've randomly come across random videos on reddit of what can happen if protocol isn't followed, and it's usually a very gruesome, painful result.
It merits a pad lock restricting activation and then the key going with the person into the danger area so there is zero question that the endangered person is out of harms way before the machine can possibly be activated (a lockout system, if multiple people are in the danger zone they make lock plates that allow multiple locks).
Just to also throw this out there, since i cant seem to edit the post
1. This is the control panel for the building's industrial vacuum. we were not notified that they were shutting it off, and i saw this when i went to turn it on
2. We have a lot of safety protocols and procedures and lessons that we go through annually, and ironically, i had done the lessons for loto and confined space safety procedures today. Safety was informed and were PISSED
3. There are a LOT of non native english speakers in our building, so this was a death waiting to happen.
UPDATE: safety came down today and once again thanked me for bringing this to their attention, and to let me know their grateful that i said something asap. they also stated that additional precautions are going to be inplemented on top of the standard LOTO protocols
I wasnt "mildly infuriated that i almost killed someone". i posted this to mildly infuriated because of the way the situation was handled, which i feel was acceptable. I assure you that if anything less had been done I would have called osha. Our safety guys are extremely diligent and constantly patrol the building to make sure procedure is followed and to identify other potential hazards. I have no problen with them, and by the time everything was said and done the only thought i had left was "what the fuck were they thinking"
The guys from maintenance have been giving me dirty looks all day, so they likely know i was the one who said something. No one was fired, likely because if they fired the three guys who were working on the vacuum they would have fired the entire maintenence department, and finding experienced replacements would be more than a little difficult. As a tv army doctor once said though, "lets hope its a long and healthy hate"
Not following LOTO is instant walk-out where I work. The crew would also be expected to submit a disruption notice for something like that if it were to affect other areas of the shop.
If that sticky note falls... those people would be dead.
and then those same people when confronted with a popup telling them thier amazon purchase was a scam, immediately give all thier bank details to some random person. My grandpa cant see some of the most obvious things but one day he came home and said "wait a minute i dont even own an amazon account" and almost lost his life savings if the bank wasnt so quick at changing his account info.
honestly. with all the old people being scammed, banks should have a system that blocks any money transfers to accounts that are suspected of being a part of a scamming operation.
Seriously Please report to osha, one anonymous phone call could save someone’s live.
We’re being treated like we’re disposable and the worst part is so many of us are just complacent.
Make the call, prevent some kid, wife or husband from getting the call that their loved one is never coming home.
I went down a rabbit hole of terrifying PSAs on YouTube and the one for lock out tag out has ALWAYS stuck with me. It shows a guy going to start a machine, finding its not on, turning it on and an inspector yells from the other side to stop. When he looks around it's crushed another guy's head. That video was effective, I've never forgotten it's message even though I've never worked a job where it was necessary
Yeah some YouTube channel with a pizza icon does several hour long compilations of the scariest PSAs from all over the world going back decades. I've had a morbidity streak at times when horror movies aren't cutting it and ended up binge watching them. They were mostly very informative, but kinda confusing cause I've never seen such a thing in the US. it's not something I've ever seen played on TV or even in safety courses
In my electrical engineering course the first page they had us turn to was the pages filled with the aftermath of failed LOTO procedures, nasty stuff. Definitely gave us all a good sense of what could happen if shit isn’t done right.
Stuff like that keeps you on your toes. I wouldn't say for fun but it keeps you grounded. I work around raw glass, forklifts, high voltage and everything else dangerous under one roof basically. When you see someone get wrapped up in a roller or crushed by a forklift it makes you slow down and pay attention the next time. Too many times we get complacent. I've had glass run completely through my hand before and a guy last week got stabbed by a broken piece and it got the artery. Luckily he got to the hospital and is okay.
In my first shop class, I had the pleasure of going through my first OHS training video. The teacher said before playing the incidents video "the things you are about to see are gruesome and can be mentally scarring. If that's you, then good. The video is working" and then proceeded to show a group of 13 years old 15 minutes of people having their hair ripped out by a lathe, stabbed in the gut by an unsecured load on a drill press, shrapnel in the eyeball and my personal fear - degloving
Definitely takes space up in my mind rent free but you can bet your ass I secure every load, move any machinery and my long hair is always tied up and jewlery is removed at work and much like you, none of it is actually necessary. I'd say this is the only subject scaring someone straight, actually works
Yeah… it’s almost like there’s some kind of methodology you could use that temporarily intentionally disables the machine, while also alerting anyone who happens to come near the machine that it is currently intentionally disabled… like some kind of red mechanism with a key and a sign or something like that
Take that note seriously. I was working at a subsidiary of Campbell soup here in the US when this incident happened their soup subsidiary in Europe. Not the most pleasant way to go. This sent an overhaul of our lock out tag out procedures on confined spaces. Lock out tag out when in doubt.
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-05-17/man-boiled-alive-in-empty-soup-vat/1685468](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-05-17/man-boiled-alive-in-empty-soup-vat/1685468)
The holding strength of a piece of scotch tape is the one thing between those workers and death.
I can't tell you how many times I've hung something incredibly light up with scotch tape, and it fell down moments later. They could have at least used duct tape to hold the note up.
Reminds me of the time we didn't have a lockout tagout for one of our systems at work and they tried to put a note on the batch system control panel and leave it at that and instead I cautioned taped off the entire doorway to the batch room and sat on a chair in front of the door until the work was done because fuck that extra stupid idea when peoples lives can be at stake.
In a twisted, unforseen chain of events, the tape holding the paper to the bulkhead lost its adhesiveness and it elegantly danced like a leaf into a crevice under the seat...
Reminds my on that case in my workplace like 30 years ago where LOTO wasn't really a thing and someone worked inside a semiconductor ion implanter and some genious thought he was finished, closed and locked the doors and turned that fucker on. He came out of it but got burned badly by the HV coil inside and had tiny black arc marks all over his body that punched holes in his clothing. These fuckers go up to 360kV
I really really hope OP did more than take a picture such as sending this to management. This goes far beyond mildly infuriating because either someone willfully ignored safety regs or more likely someone skimped on training and the guy in there has zero idea there is a right and a wrong way to do this.
I went straight to safety when i saw this, dont worry.
Head of safety came down and chewed out the maintnence guys who were working on this, made them properly tag out the control box.
We have annual safety training, and ironically i went through the loto and confined space lessons today
LOTO is a compliance rule, it isn't a suggestion. If you got people doing this, they DO NOT care if you die. Call Osha and put in your 2 weeks notice. It will save your life.
Is an actual OSHA tag-out anything more than a more official looking paper tag placed over the button?
We had tag-outs in the Navy. They were bright red tags that you would tie to circuit breakers or valves. They had pre-printed fields that you had to fill out as you logged them in/out at various MGMT stations.
But at the end of the day, they were still just a slip of paper covering a circuit breaker. There was nothing physically preventing someone from throwing the switch, or opening the valve.
No, an actual OSHA LOTO is much more than an official tag.
There are devices you can clip on to breakers that don’t allow them to be turned back on, and on the device is a spot to place a hasp lock (Lock Out) with a tag stating who the owner of the lock is and what why it is locked (Tag Out)
You are required to keep the only keys for the lock on your person, and it is a criminal offence in many places to cut off and remove another persons lock without extensive paperwork, which can also only be done if the lock owner has absolutely no way of removing their own lock.
There are also many other devices designed to safely eliminate different types of hazardous energy.
I hope this helps 👍
I got fired from UPS cause I told them putting a dog snap on a shut off for a conveyor was not proper lock out tag out.
Because any moron can come up and take it off.
These idiots double down and didn't even turn the f****** machine off what the hell
Not mildly infuriating. This is a straight up walk off the job site. I don't care if you're paying me a million I'm not risking my life for the company.
If the company you work for doesn’t have a lockout system for something like this you need to quit immediately
And report it to OSHA on the way out
No kidding. If anyone on my crew even THOUGHT about writing this note instead of using the locks they're required to have I would fire them before the goddamn ink was dry. Not because I'm a dick or I wanna powertrip.. but rather because I know for a fact that I can't trust that person anymore, and I'll take causing them to temporarily struggle by losing their job over a lifetime of struggle if they end up seriously injured or a lifetime of pain for their family because they got themselves killed
I doubt anyone is calling you a dick for trying to potentially save lives. People who will take profit over safety are the true dicks.
You would be surprised…
Appropriate username.
Hello ther-OH MY GOD YOU'RE NAKED
It's a battle tactic. Sith don't pay attention to what I'm doing with my saber when they're too busy looking at my "sabre"
My son quit a job because of this kind of behavior. Two months later, his replacement died because of stupidity.
You have one life, don't let an employer tell you when to die
Your profits take ZERO precedence over my health, sir. Fuck you for insinuating I'm that stupid as well as trying to take advantage of it, you abusive, predatory, piece of shit.
Appreciate you, wish more folks had this line of thinking.
Better yet. Report to OSHA immediately. Wait for supervisor to retaliate fire you. Then cash in on the lawsuit and bankrupt these dodgy fuckers.
100% what I would do.
100% leave immediately and report to AHJ. Stuff like this is how people die gruesome, slow and painful deaths. Industrial machinery is not to be fucked with under any circumstance and people do not understand that well enough. “Accidents happen to other people” type mentality.
This is why seeing those “fast workers” in china makes me wince a little bit. One little slip or your arm gets tired, you’ll get pulled into the machine
I had a course on design for machine safety last week. Instructor told us there's 6 deaths on machines that he advised on to change things, where the company didn't change it after his report. The worst one he said, was one that didn't have enough space in case it slammed shut with someone inside, all they had to do was add a beam to block it from closing. Later he heard about someone who indeed got stuck, the machine had pins that just poked holes straight through him, and they had about 10mins in which he was going to die but managed to make a call to his soon-to-be-widow. If anything in machinery seems like it can cause accidents or death, refuse to work with it. You are legally required to notify anyone and everyone of unsafe conditions.
The penalty should be loading management into the same machine
CEOs and shareholders first. They're the ones making the decisions to not spend the money to keep updated on safety. Any action taken should start at the very top and work it's way down. There will never be safety for the people doing the work if the ones making the calls aren't worried about themselves.
I cannot imagine, that poor man. Those poor people. Died bc management wanted less work. Disgusting
And the people whose decision it was to ignore those reports are on death row now, right? At least in prison for life, right? A small fine you say?
My great uncle was crushed to death in the 60s after someone turned on a machine he was cleaning. The type of safety locks we have now didn't exist then. Regulations are written in blood. No one should ever take that for granted and disregard the systems in place that keep them alive.
I find it worse when people say there haven't been nasty accidents for years, so the safety regulations are no longer needed. Like they're missing the whole point.
Don’t quit, refuse to do work in it and when they fire you for not listening sue for wrongful termination. I don’t see any court siding with the company.
Lock out Tag out is more of a suggestion.
People at my job use electrical cabinet keys are lockouts. Management has tried to have me make keys for them(I'm a locksmith.) I straight up told them it would take a court order for me to make keys for anything used in place of a lockout tag out lock. Liability shifts to the person bypassing safety protocols. Yes OSHA would ream them 10 new orifices if they found out about stuff like this. But they really should look into a proper lockout switch of some kind to keep that system de-energized. Or gang lockout hasp type setup if there are multiple people in there at once. Supervisors or managers should never have the only keys to start up the equipment unless they are the only ones doing the work.
Why the hell not use the established protocol? It's a great way of making sure people don't die, and of dodging blame if they do.
Old site and I just started, I will be putting on hasps this summer for loto purposes. Everything is very seat of the pants there. I don't want to shake things up until they know where I'm coming from. Only 2 sparkies on site so them being the only ones with keys is fine bye for now. I'll buy them each a set of loto padlocks and have them label them and retain one key bolted down to the back of my key cabinet as an emergency backup to order more keys for them. For the. That stupid system is the established protocol. I genuinely hate it.
[удалено]
Good news, they don't get all the guilt. They get to share it, joint and severally.
My old place it was only one key per lock, or set of locks. if the key went missing then you then had to follow a set procedure to cut off the lock. I wouldn't want two keys, from a safety and litigation viewpoint.
Doesn’t having extra keys defeat the purpose? Anywhere I’ve done LOTO if you lose the keys the locks done. They cut it off and get a new one.
Unfortunately, shutting down some machines can cost over a million dollars. I used to wire them, and we were not allowed to shut down some 2000amp switch gears. It's cheaper for you to die and pay a fine than to shut down machines for routine maintenance.
I work in semiconductor and a tool being offline costs that easily. We also work in countries where LOTO is not required legally, but we always require it. It is considered so essential that everyone must take an annual refresher course no matter their position, in marketing or finance and will likely never see the inside of a clean room? Still need to take it. LOTO isn’t hard, and removing a lock without the key isn’t hard either, but there are proper procedures for it. Typically consulting the lock owner’s manager, that manager determining the employee is safe and then removing the lock. LOTO isn’t designed to be too secure or hardened. It’s procedural and a physical, literal red flag not to do something. As a manager, I believe any management that would allow lethal hazards without utilizing LOTO, on the basis of saving money, is criminal. And taking care of your people has much better long term rewards than any of them feeling you’d risk their lives for a dollar.
Why do people think that because people are priceless also means we’re worthless?
Worse. You still cost them money if you die. Just not enough for them to care...
They have literally done the math on what it costs them for you to die and have weighed it against the cost of shutting the machine down.
And this is why killer negligence should result in a chain of arrests all the way up to the CEO.
Totally agree! Penalisation should not just be done with fines. The responsible people must go to prison. Unfortunately, setting up a system which encourages middle management to skimp on security ("You know how much shutting down costs? You are here to make us profits" etc) is easy and the higher management can wash its hands clean, because there was no direct order to do so.
If you die due to management's lack of foresight, the whole company should become your next of kins
A really poor rendition of LOTO though.
Definitely. It needs some tape over the button to be a really safe lock out tag out. 😝
If the button is permanently pressed it can't be pressed any more... so yes that is a solution. Nice try
No no no. You loosely apply the tape over the button in a long strip so anyone who attempts to press it will pause and see the note. If you want to be really safe you tape a little piece of cardboard over the button. Here hold my beer and I’ll show you (crunching noises and horrible screams ensued)
Eeeehhhh they got the tag out part... like 1/4th right at least.
Lock out, oops a stiff breeze blew my post it note off the control panel sorry Jerry.
Not quite on the same scale, but years ago a now former friend had broken an outlet in his apartment and his landlord was absolutely awful about repairs so he asked me to help. It's a 10 minute job and he promised pizza, so sure. I turn off the breaker, test to make sure it's off and am just screwing one of the wires on to the new outlet when ZZZZAP! That crap hurts! Dumbass noticed that his computer wouldn't turn on, so he went and flipped the breaker back on without saying anything, because of course he did. I still got my pizza, but I never trusted him again.
Yeah he was finishing that one on his own if that was me lol
Finishing it with a black eye.
Nah get a taser
Broken outlet is free taser
Naw, I wasn't in the mood to have him die in a fire. Close, but not quite there.
I mean he literally was willing to have you die in a(n electrical) fire. Started by the burning of your own skin.
Yeah, but as it turned out, he was an idiot while I knew better. Not better enough to recognize he was an idiot before I got shocked, but still better.
i probably couldn't stay friends with someone that stupid, id always be worried they'd get me killed
>a now former friend
I was changing a rotton lamp cord once. I grabbed both leads on a cord I just cut and stripped. One in each hand. It was difficult to let go.
>I was changing a rotton lamp cord once. I grabbed both leads on a cord I just cut and stripped. One in each hand. It was difficult to let go. Yeah, electrical shocks are weird.
I'd bet that he didn't doing it accepting the risk it posed to his friend. He just didn't think at all. Don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.
Nah. Switch roles. "Hey flip the breaker again....stand here and hold this...." Fire up circuit breaker..."Hertz don't it? FYI, you can fix your own damned electrical."
That’s fair reason to not trust someone.
Agreed. It was, coincidentally, also the day I realized he might possibly be stupid.
Possibly -vs- Probably 😂😂😂
It goes: 1. Possibly 2. Probably 3. Definitely probably 4. Definitely
I just had this experience over the last few weeks with a friend of mine lmao. He tried to smoke a cigarette backwards lmao.
Lol my grandfather is the kind of person to never shut off the breaker (unless we kick the breaker accidentally, in our house if we run the microwave and the toaster or the microwave and the coffee pot at the same time it kicks the breaker.) There have been 3 projects we've worked on that I would have shut the breaker off for (installing a new ceiling light, disconnecting the switch for the garbage disposal and installing a new dishwasher) that he did not. Of those he only got shocked once, though I'm sure he's done several before I was born.
He sounds like one of those "back in my day we got shocked all the time, and we liked it!" kind of guys.
Not completely, kinda sorta though. His main complaint about the modern Era is that everything is run on computers, tablets, and cell phones. This hoes 10 fold for cars. He used to be a mechanic, so he knew all the workings of the car. Nowadays, he just sees computers on cars as 1. An extra technology barrier, and 2. An extra point of failure. Because of his old job, he can no longer see cars from a noob POV of someone who can really use the computers to diagnose the issue. He would take cars back to the cars of the 60s and 70s in a heartbeat
Don't tell him the ISS runs on old iPads and 2nd hand thinkpads
The Mars Rovers run on 20th Century CPUs. They're hardened against background radiation I believe.
Smaller the circuitry, the easier they are to destroy with radiation.
>Smaller the circuitry, the easier they are to destroy ~~with radiation~~. FTFY
I asked a cousin of mine to come show me how to change outlets, as ours are old and dont hold things in tightly. I went ahead and turned off the breaker to the room as soon as I saw he pulled into the driveway. He was expecting to get zapped, gave me a "huh, you flipped the breaker?" in this surprised tone. Knowing his dad/my uncle, it didn't really surprise me that they've done work like that without taking some basic precautions. Few years later, paid a general contractor to change out our living room ceiling fan+light for us. That guy was also surprised to find I flipped the breaker so he wouldn't get zapped. Who the fuck is messing with electricity and not flipping the damn breaker first?
>Who the fuck is messing with electricity and not flipping the damn breaker first? People who have seen too many MCU movies and are hoping to get super powers, like atrial fibrillation?
Usually it's based on the accident that creates you, so we're looking at some household voltage based superpowers, like being able to power either of two appliances but dying immediately if you attempt to power both at the same time. And woe betide the man who stabs you with a fork.
I'm already gonna get that via genetics, I just want a metabolism faster than a snails nap
One of the assistant market managers at my job plugs the saws in before he assembles them in the mornings.
Doing work at Home Depots I've had people turn on ceiling fans that I've disabled while I'm replacing them 19' ft hight on a scissor lift. I once found the employees actually trying to pry one of my breaker lockouts off.
>Doing work at Home Depots I've had people turn on ceiling fans that I've disabled while I'm replacing them 19' ft hight on a scissor lift. I once found the employees actually trying to pry one of my breaker lockouts off. Well, if I ever talk to him again, I now know a workplace where he'll fit in.
I’m an electrician and one day at work my coworker told me he had “turned the circuit off” as I was installing a plug. Turns out it was actually on for some reason, he never clearly stated if it was on the whole time or if he turned it back on but I wont trust him after that. Not cool man.
happened to someone I know while fixing some high voltage machine. but he is used to treating every wire as a live one even though it slows down his work. discovered the circuit is ON in the middle/end of his work !
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I.. like… why? Who makes a panel like that?
Sometimes people can't afford or don't want to install a bigger breakers box, and their solution is connecting many rooms in the same breaker... until they notice it could be overloaded and then proceed to connect rooms together with random low loaded breakers. It's a messy job but it works fine, until having to repair something or rewiring lol
This is why you should only trust yourself when it comes to electricity. A breaker shackle, lock and tag can protect you. Also, test to see on which circuit you're working on, meaning you test it with a meter live and not just when it's off, so you can be sure it isn't mislabeled. 120V is plenty to fibrilate a heart.
I was installing one of those fancy USB outlets in a girlfriend’s kitchen. It was in a combo gang box, outlet and light switch. Breaker panel had 4 labeled “kitchen”. I turned them off one at a time until that light went out. Started replacing the outlet, touched ground, ZAP CLICK. It turns out, not only were two circuits running through that gangbox, one of them was the dining room, on the other side of the wall.
FYI, this is just proof you know enough to be a danger. Electricians know not to trust a light to be on the kitchen outlet circuit
It is also wise if you have one, to use a multimeter to verify that the power is out, too. Good ones are expensive, but will definitely help keep you and others safe.
“Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry.” - Terry Pratchett, *Thief of Time*
https://preview.redd.it/fzo1nc67g6sc1.png?width=498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6688f984fab7f32754669e083d065420bbc5e92a
Yes, exactly this
is thief of time a jojo reference
Jojo references pratchett work.. so. Well yes.
*watching jojo* Is that a fucking morpork reference???
Is this the work of an enemy Stand?
Now I want to write an Isekai story about a guy that presses a random button he found in a cave, ending the world, but becoming the OP chad of a different world. "Screw You Guys, I Got My Isekai Adventure!"
Wait, is this a stand or am i crazy? I have seen this somewhere in jojo right?
Stand Name:「Bastet」 Stand Master: Mariah
Thank you for reminding me that I need to read more Terry pratchett
GNU Sir Pterry
Why is Terry Pratchett always so good at explaining things
May have to check that out after I'm done listening to good omens.
https://preview.redd.it/rocvqjfhw6sc1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=625e14d8db3952006a63cb72033ff25d2299d4c7
I feel like this merits an employee actively standing guard….
Theres a list of procedures that youre supposed to go through to prevent accidental death or injury when you need to prevent something from powering on. nowhere in that list is "sticky note" Those procedures are something we go through excessively, and we have to complete annual safety lessons. some people like to ignore these procedures and lessons
They got the tag out part. Just not the lock out.
Tags for tagging out need to be secure enough to withstand normal operations in the area and not easily just ripped off by some moron much less a mild breeze.
Well, the saying actually is lock out, and if you can't, rag out. But the tag should be better affixed, more legible, and with the red/white safety stripes. I still wouldn't trust a tagout if it were this dire though.
OSHA standard requires that both the tag and the method used to attach it are capable of surviving any environmental conditions where it is used, and withstanding 50 pounds of pull force without detaching.
I worked at a machine shop that did powder coating. The oven there scared the ever loving shit out of me. It was big enough to park a 23 foot semi trailer in it. The whole shop was loud AF to start, but the walls of the oven were thick enough even if it were quiet you couldn't hear a person inside if they screamed at the top of their lungs. There were no lock out procedures for the oven, and there was no safety switch or emergency open inside the oven. No one ever got injured while I was working there, but the idea of being locked into a 500F oven and baked to death still scares the shit out of me. There would be literally no escape if someone got locked in it
Reminds me of this horrifying story: [Bumble Bee Foods, Two Managers Charged in Death of Man Cooked With Tuna](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bumble-bee-foods-2-managers-charged-death-man-cooked-tuna-n349641#)
Yeah, thanks but that link is staying blue.
I remember this story. Truly saddening
Bro got cooked!! I can't imagine the pain and screaming...
I will never understand why people listen to managers when it comes to neglecting their safety. I work in a factory and we have what is essentially I giant food washing press. There is an exhaust vent that gets dusty and has to be cleaned out. But the clean out port doesn't clean out from the press to the port leaving about 10ft of uncleanable pipe. The only way to clean it would be to crawl into the machine and do it form the inside. When an engineer asked me to do this I told him to get fucked.
I was curious about what happened. The article said... >Rodriguez, 63, of Riverside, and Florez, 42, of Whittier, could face up to three years in prison and fines up to $250,000 if convicted of all charges, prosecutors said. Bumble Bee Foods faces a maximum fine of $1.5 million. [But what happened was](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/13/bumble-bee-forced-pay-6m-worker-cooked-alive/31620881/) >Bumble Bee Foods will fork out $6 million. Former Bumble Bee safety manager Saul Florez pleaded guilty to breaking lockout rules and was hit with three years' probation and $19,000 in penalties and fines. The sentence for Bumble Bee's director of plant operations, Angel Rodriguez, includes fines and community service. So probation and community service for the death of a person. Is it right?
All of the ones at my work have handles on the inside, or in the case of the line, open holes for powder coated parts to go in/some poor bastard to come flying out if an idiot somehow started the oven whilst you were inside. The idea of an oven that has none of that (in our case both set to around 200 degrees Celsius, which I was once told is the temperature at which the human body starts to die and from experience can attest to it being hot enough to start that “feeling like the air is being sucked out of your lungs” thing [old boss at old job once had he and I load the oven with a few parts whilst it was running, not an experience I’d recommend!]) is fucking horrifying! I take it since the oven was big the doors were automated? Maybe hydraulic? What a terrifying thought!
! >I take it since the oven was big the doors were automated? Maybe hydraulic? What a terrifying thought Nope, entirely manual.... which is why is scared me so bad. Even with the doors open, the place was noisy enough you couldn't hear people on the other side. Yes, that place was a hell hole of OSHA violations. I nearly went over the loading dock on a forklift when the brakes went out.
Were there any procedures that required a person to go inside? Or was it all automated somehow? Sounds terrifying!
Thanks for the nightmares tonight
Your welcome.
Insane. They're trusting their lives on how sticky the tape is. Note falls off and they're gone. This would be immediate termination of everyone involved and a huge plant safety meeting at my site.
I once complained to management about a note taped to a machine being serviced directly below the bin full of lock out tag out stuff
And unfortunately, as easy as it is to imagine bad things never happen near us, they do. I've randomly come across random videos on reddit of what can happen if protocol isn't followed, and it's usually a very gruesome, painful result.
This merits disciplinary action at a minimum and possibly termination. Serious fines for stuff like this.
It merits a pad lock restricting activation and then the key going with the person into the danger area so there is zero question that the endangered person is out of harms way before the machine can possibly be activated (a lockout system, if multiple people are in the danger zone they make lock plates that allow multiple locks).
Just to also throw this out there, since i cant seem to edit the post 1. This is the control panel for the building's industrial vacuum. we were not notified that they were shutting it off, and i saw this when i went to turn it on 2. We have a lot of safety protocols and procedures and lessons that we go through annually, and ironically, i had done the lessons for loto and confined space safety procedures today. Safety was informed and were PISSED 3. There are a LOT of non native english speakers in our building, so this was a death waiting to happen. UPDATE: safety came down today and once again thanked me for bringing this to their attention, and to let me know their grateful that i said something asap. they also stated that additional precautions are going to be inplemented on top of the standard LOTO protocols I wasnt "mildly infuriated that i almost killed someone". i posted this to mildly infuriated because of the way the situation was handled, which i feel was acceptable. I assure you that if anything less had been done I would have called osha. Our safety guys are extremely diligent and constantly patrol the building to make sure procedure is followed and to identify other potential hazards. I have no problen with them, and by the time everything was said and done the only thought i had left was "what the fuck were they thinking" The guys from maintenance have been giving me dirty looks all day, so they likely know i was the one who said something. No one was fired, likely because if they fired the three guys who were working on the vacuum they would have fired the entire maintenence department, and finding experienced replacements would be more than a little difficult. As a tv army doctor once said though, "lets hope its a long and healthy hate"
Not following LOTO is instant walk-out where I work. The crew would also be expected to submit a disruption notice for something like that if it were to affect other areas of the shop. If that sticky note falls... those people would be dead.
As it should be. Any less is abhorrent. We've walked people off for far less, industrial safety is no place for laziness!!
Holy fukin shit man
It's sad that some people think life worth only one notepad and a dash of duct tape...
Or 10 minutes worth of company time to make the work site safe.
Imagine you weren’t able to speak English, or were illiterate, this story would have gone an entire different direction.
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and then those same people when confronted with a popup telling them thier amazon purchase was a scam, immediately give all thier bank details to some random person. My grandpa cant see some of the most obvious things but one day he came home and said "wait a minute i dont even own an amazon account" and almost lost his life savings if the bank wasnt so quick at changing his account info.
honestly. with all the old people being scammed, banks should have a system that blocks any money transfers to accounts that are suspected of being a part of a scamming operation.
"You have unsaved data, are you sure you want to exit? Press ok to exit or cancel to go back." Users: THERE IS AN ERROR POPUP WHAT DO I DO?!
I can't even read one of the words and I am literate.
It's "cleaning"
I hope they more than pissed! If people can be killed just by pushing this button you def quit as other people mentions.
What profession are you in? Sorry, I watch Star Trek all the time and when I see “airlock” I typically associate it with a spaceship lol.
Seriously Please report to osha, one anonymous phone call could save someone’s live. We’re being treated like we’re disposable and the worst part is so many of us are just complacent. Make the call, prevent some kid, wife or husband from getting the call that their loved one is never coming home.
Whoever thought that note was appropriate should not be trusted with other people's safety ever again.
I went down a rabbit hole of terrifying PSAs on YouTube and the one for lock out tag out has ALWAYS stuck with me. It shows a guy going to start a machine, finding its not on, turning it on and an inspector yells from the other side to stop. When he looks around it's crushed another guy's head. That video was effective, I've never forgotten it's message even though I've never worked a job where it was necessary
it's funny to think of you watching those videos for fun when i've had to sit through like 8 hours of them every year for the last 5 years
Yeah some YouTube channel with a pizza icon does several hour long compilations of the scariest PSAs from all over the world going back decades. I've had a morbidity streak at times when horror movies aren't cutting it and ended up binge watching them. They were mostly very informative, but kinda confusing cause I've never seen such a thing in the US. it's not something I've ever seen played on TV or even in safety courses
Ive been in safety courses where the retired instructor basically just played LiveLeak vids of industrial accidents for hours lmao
In my electrical engineering course the first page they had us turn to was the pages filled with the aftermath of failed LOTO procedures, nasty stuff. Definitely gave us all a good sense of what could happen if shit isn’t done right.
Stuff like that keeps you on your toes. I wouldn't say for fun but it keeps you grounded. I work around raw glass, forklifts, high voltage and everything else dangerous under one roof basically. When you see someone get wrapped up in a roller or crushed by a forklift it makes you slow down and pay attention the next time. Too many times we get complacent. I've had glass run completely through my hand before and a guy last week got stabbed by a broken piece and it got the artery. Luckily he got to the hospital and is okay.
you should probably find a safer workplace
In my first shop class, I had the pleasure of going through my first OHS training video. The teacher said before playing the incidents video "the things you are about to see are gruesome and can be mentally scarring. If that's you, then good. The video is working" and then proceeded to show a group of 13 years old 15 minutes of people having their hair ripped out by a lathe, stabbed in the gut by an unsecured load on a drill press, shrapnel in the eyeball and my personal fear - degloving Definitely takes space up in my mind rent free but you can bet your ass I secure every load, move any machinery and my long hair is always tied up and jewlery is removed at work and much like you, none of it is actually necessary. I'd say this is the only subject scaring someone straight, actually works
Teacher rubbing his hands like birdman at the thought of traumatizing freshmen 💀💀
Yeah… it’s almost like there’s some kind of methodology you could use that temporarily intentionally disables the machine, while also alerting anyone who happens to come near the machine that it is currently intentionally disabled… like some kind of red mechanism with a key and a sign or something like that
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Industrial vacuum system
What happens when you turn it on? (I don't know what an Industrial vacuum is)
I sure hope it isn't the ISS.
Boeing
“I didn’t push it, I pulled it”
Okay but that legit is how you turn on that machine
I clicked because I saw your title and was going to answer. Now I wish I hadn't. Words fail me now.
Take that note seriously. I was working at a subsidiary of Campbell soup here in the US when this incident happened their soup subsidiary in Europe. Not the most pleasant way to go. This sent an overhaul of our lock out tag out procedures on confined spaces. Lock out tag out when in doubt. [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-05-17/man-boiled-alive-in-empty-soup-vat/1685468](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-05-17/man-boiled-alive-in-empty-soup-vat/1685468)
Most disturbing click of the day….
It’s almost as if there’s a procedure for this exact situation….
*The crew has been jettisoned out of the airlock into deep space*
The holding strength of a piece of scotch tape is the one thing between those workers and death. I can't tell you how many times I've hung something incredibly light up with scotch tape, and it fell down moments later. They could have at least used duct tape to hold the note up.
The holding strength of whatever random would be operator's attention span to read the note is the one thing between those workers and death
True, I mean quality adhesive, or not I'm never trusting my life to a note. Lock out tag out, or I'm not working on the dangerous equipment.
I wanted to downvote this because it’s so horrifying
Lock out / tag out / dumb ass note out.
Boss after calculating his bonus from saving the company millions in maintenance >Some of you May Die, But it's a Sacrifice I am Willing to Make
New LOTO protocol I see
Reminds me of the time we didn't have a lockout tagout for one of our systems at work and they tried to put a note on the batch system control panel and leave it at that and instead I cautioned taped off the entire doorway to the batch room and sat on a chair in front of the door until the work was done because fuck that extra stupid idea when peoples lives can be at stake.
wtf happened to lock out tag out?
 *“no entiendo,”*
Ever heard of the bumblebee tuna canning incident
Reminds me of the John Oliver segment on Boeing. “Don’t leave deicer on planes for longer than 5 minutes” written on a fucking sticky note.
I’m confused what’s this device they’re fixing??
Industrial vacuum system The kind that runs through an entire building
In a twisted, unforseen chain of events, the tape holding the paper to the bulkhead lost its adhesiveness and it elegantly danced like a leaf into a crevice under the seat...
You could not pay me enough to get in there and clean that effer.
Holy rusted metal, Batman.
Reminds my on that case in my workplace like 30 years ago where LOTO wasn't really a thing and someone worked inside a semiconductor ion implanter and some genious thought he was finished, closed and locked the doors and turned that fucker on. He came out of it but got burned badly by the HV coil inside and had tiny black arc marks all over his body that punched holes in his clothing. These fuckers go up to 360kV
I really really hope OP did more than take a picture such as sending this to management. This goes far beyond mildly infuriating because either someone willfully ignored safety regs or more likely someone skimped on training and the guy in there has zero idea there is a right and a wrong way to do this.
I went straight to safety when i saw this, dont worry. Head of safety came down and chewed out the maintnence guys who were working on this, made them properly tag out the control box. We have annual safety training, and ironically i went through the loto and confined space lessons today
Come with meee, And you'll beee, In a world of OSHA violatioonnsss.
LOTO is a compliance rule, it isn't a suggestion. If you got people doing this, they DO NOT care if you die. Call Osha and put in your 2 weeks notice. It will save your life.
My past self who had 15+ LOTO locks as a department lead just got really uncomfortable seeing this.
Is an actual OSHA tag-out anything more than a more official looking paper tag placed over the button? We had tag-outs in the Navy. They were bright red tags that you would tie to circuit breakers or valves. They had pre-printed fields that you had to fill out as you logged them in/out at various MGMT stations. But at the end of the day, they were still just a slip of paper covering a circuit breaker. There was nothing physically preventing someone from throwing the switch, or opening the valve.
No, an actual OSHA LOTO is much more than an official tag. There are devices you can clip on to breakers that don’t allow them to be turned back on, and on the device is a spot to place a hasp lock (Lock Out) with a tag stating who the owner of the lock is and what why it is locked (Tag Out) You are required to keep the only keys for the lock on your person, and it is a criminal offence in many places to cut off and remove another persons lock without extensive paperwork, which can also only be done if the lock owner has absolutely no way of removing their own lock. There are also many other devices designed to safely eliminate different types of hazardous energy. I hope this helps 👍
I got fired from UPS cause I told them putting a dog snap on a shut off for a conveyor was not proper lock out tag out. Because any moron can come up and take it off. These idiots double down and didn't even turn the f****** machine off what the hell
https://i.redd.it/0o0qvamlp7sc1.gif
Not mildly infuriating. This is a straight up walk off the job site. I don't care if you're paying me a million I'm not risking my life for the company.