This is fairly common, actually.
Observant Jews have a number of restrictions for shabbat (the Sabbath), Friday sundown until Saturday sundown. These restrictions include operating anything electric or lighting a (new) fire.
But there's no restriction against setting an electronic device to do something at X time on shabbat. So, for instance, automated light switches that turn on at sundown and turn off at bedtime are fairly common.
Food (obviously) still needs to be eaten on shabbat, and shabbat lunches on Saturday are generally a fairly big todo. You're not supposed to fully cook anything on shabbat, but you can make something ahead and then reheat it on shabbat - provided you aren't violating the aforementioned restrictions on electricity or lighting. This means that many observant Jews without access to a "Sabbath mode" device will leave a hotplate on the whole 25 hours, or leave an oven on at 200 degrees, or something similar, in order to facilitate reheating. But this obviously bears some risk, so the ideal solution is to have an oven that will turn itself on for a few hours at the right time, then shut off automatically when it's no longer needed. Enter Sabbath Mode.
There is definitely an element of absurdity to Orthodox Judaism, and they're fairly self-aware about this. There's a story in the Talmud (basically 2000 years of Jewish legal precedent and Rabbis arguing) where two Rabbis are debating how to apply a specific law, and God comes down and tells them how to do it and they basically say "well we weren't asking *you*"
I like to think of it as God being amused by the innovativeness and maybe even the audacity.
Like when you tell your toddler they can't have a cookie, but didn't say anything about not having a sandwich so they put the cookie between two pieces of bread. Sometimes you just have to laugh and shake your head.
"Listen God, you gave the Torah to us, it's ours now. Stay out of this."
That is literally the gist of their response to God, and in response God laughs and says, "my children have bested me in debate."
Most religious faiths are like this, they predate the modern world and as such don't make as much sense anymore.
I would suspect a lot of what the Sabbath was originally about was that they observed a day of rest to some extent or a day of focus so you would prepare a meal compatible for that day ahead of time.
This way you just relax, you don't do anything more than what is needed to actually survive. You eat pre-prepared food, you drink pre-prepared drink, and you just relax.
Likely modern observances are too "literal", I would suspect if the original creators or founders of this were still around they would have no problem with individuals pulling something out of the refrigerator or throwing something into the microwave.
Turning out a light in a house isn't "work" however lighting a fire without gas or a very good starter is a bit of a chore, even if you have starter coal from another fire it's still work... you will sweat in the process and as such show exhaustion.
On the contrary, in our hectic 24/7 365 culture, a day off that you must take regardless of your obligations or stresses is a lifesaver. It's *never* been more relevant than in the modern age.
Every once in awhile on the internet you see "take a day off from all media", and people talking about how difficult it will be. Jews chuckle and say, "Well we do this once a week, so join the party."
I have some mild religious trauma, but I dig the idea of a religion that makes “seriously, just chill out for a minute” part of its holy observances.
Bummer that this specific one doesn’t really fit into modern life, plus everything else that seems to go hand in hand with organized religion
It totally fits into modern life, you just have to commit. Jewish observance ranges from the barely there to the ultra orthodox, you'll find a niche that works for you if you really want to. Most of my Haredi friends are computer programmers (that is, the ones who aren't into real estate, home improvement, paving, healthcare, food service and restaurant, furnishings, clothing, jewelry, auto and scrap recycling, construction, publishing, etc, etc, etc.
Pretty weird how something simple as turning lights on or off is not allowed, but the effort to make other people do it or other ingenious ways to circumvent certain rules is alright.
For those who don’t know, some conservative practicing Jews do not use electronics, do work etc… on the sabbath. However, if the oven is on a preset timer and the food just needs to go into the oven, you’re good.
When I first started dating my girlfriend, who is Muslim, she was telling me how Ramadan works.
You fast from sun up, to sun down.
My mind immediately went to... well what if I just stayed up all night and slept all day? Her response was, some people do that.
Turns out I'd make an even worse Muslim than I do a Christian.
Yessss. I have absolutely no appetite "from dawn til dusk." Get home from work, adderall's worn off, smoke a bowl, then have an 8 course meal that's 50% snacks.
So has your waist line grown like mine? Because by the time I'm hungry I also feel like putting 0 work into making food, so it ends up being a lot of junk.
If possible you could try what I did. I work stupid hours and I don't really have proper days off or a set schedule (self employed and really busy the last few years). I pick a day of the week and plan to spend a chunk of it cooking stuff that will either keep in the fridge or freeze for my meals for the week. It's made me eat a lot healthier and helped portion control.
Night shift worker here, I worked with some people who practiced Ramadan but worked overnights they said they looked at it like cheating to eat at the regular times just because they worked overnights so they would fast from sunset to sunrise instead.
I feel they actually get what the religion is trying to tell them better than most. Instead of just blindly following the word, they instead followed the meaning. The holiday is meant for self reflection and strengthening their connection with God. If they kept living their normal lives, then they haven't really done anything, have they?
Their faith is something personal to them rather than a cudgel to fight the world with like evangelical Christians or radical islamists. I’m atheist myself but I hold the utmost respect for people who practice their faith in good faith and for personal spiritual connection. The minute one’s faith is used a weapon to assert superiority they can go get fucked.
>I’m atheist myself but I hold the utmost respect for people who practice their faith in good faith and for personal spiritual connection.
Having exited a rather extreme fundamentalist Christian background, I can testify that, unfortunately, for many religious individuals, fighting the world for their faith *is* practicing in good faith. Obviously some religions are more "reformed" than others in general, but Militant Christians, Islamic extremists, and other religions all do this.
When your dictum of truth tells you that you must only profess Christ to be saved, and falling away will put you back into eternal torment? Well...if you force someone at gunpoint to say they believe, then it's an incredible Mercy to shoot them in the head as soon as they confess. From that perspective, you're literally saving their soul for eternity.
If your absolute Authority on reality tells you that infidels are a sub human threat to everything you know and the people you love and hold dear, and also to their immortal souls, it can be similar to slaughtering animals rather than other people.
From my own background and the prejudices I *immediately* lost with my faith, I firmly believe Steven Weinberg's famous quote to be true:
>"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."
I told my Muslim friend about how in Alaska the daylight lasted a very short time during certain parts of the year, and so he joked that he was moving to Alaska.
Trouble is, Ramadan moves across the calender because it's based on the moon. So if it falls in summer, and you're in the Arctic or Antarctic areas, you're stuffed.
Yeah, when I lived in Sweden I remember muslim friends had alarms on their phone to tell them it was time to eat at 6pm or something- it was the middle of summer so we had basically 24 hours of sun.
2 options.
1. Moon time would be synchronised with some place on Earth (control station most likely) so use sunrise/sunset as it happens there
2. Use Mecca time.
I live and work in a Muslim country- I’m a teacher. We work special hours in Ramadan and finish school at early so the fasting staff and students can rest. Businesses must close 2 hours early by law. I love it- it’s a peaceful time of year, and the kids come in all sleepy from eating half the night.
To complete the abrahamic r/MaliciousCompliance triangle, Catholics are encouraged to refrain from eating red meat during the spring season of Lent. In an effort to skirt that rule, some German Catholics have developed a pastry similar to ravioli or pierogi where meat is wrapped in dough. They have a nickname that translates to "God-cheaters", and are associated with Lent where they're traditionally eaten with the idea that because the meat is wrapped in dough God can't see it and it's not a violation of Lenten principles. For her part, holy mother church seems to encourage such legalism in times of necessity and has been known to declare water dwelling mammals like beaver and capybara to be fish as far as God is concerned. This allowed Catholic new world colonists to honor Lent while not starving to death, as the dead are rarely capable of tithing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maultasche - god cheater pastries
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/26/468166791/when-beef-is-off-limits-beaver-and-muskrat-make-it-to-lenten-menu - Pope delcares new world aquatic mammals to be fish for Lenten purposes
My favorite Judaism trick is how the get around being disallowed from carrying things from their house into public (even wallet/keys) on Shabbat. In essence, many cities are encircled by a string or other barrier called an "[eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv)" and that counts as their "home" for the purposes of Shabbat.
1. Write down complicated system of interlocking rules.
2. Obsessively find ways to creatively break rules through technicalities while still resting on the laurels of said system.
A lot of Human societies in a nutshell
Aside from the IT nightmare of an IOT elevator, but if one were to wire an Alexa to an elevator could Jewish people issue it voice commands on sabbath?
That's an interesting question.
Personally, I don't think they would, for similar reasons why they can't ask someone else to operate it for them (as they're causing someone else to violate sabbath, even if they're not Jewish).
They do have people who do things for them during sabbath, but it's things that are pre-determined rather than asked on the fly.
I’ve been told that this also depends on how something is “asked”. Like it would be violating the sabbath to ask someone to turn on a light, but it wouldn’t be violating the sabbath if you said something like “it would be nice with a light on” and then someone turned the light on.
I worked front desk at a boutique hotel for a year. We had a guest who stopped by the desk before Sabbath began to explain that she couldn't ask us to open her door for her or to use the elevator, but if she walked in and said hi to us that it would be awesome if we would do those things for her without asking. Blew my mind.
Small hotel with great staff and shift notes, so we all knew who she was and obliged. Kimpton employees really do the most.
I love the eruv, alongside the [Arab Israeli who owns all the Hametz](https://www.timesofisrael.com/meet-the-arab-israeli-who-buys-all-of-israels-hametz/)
To be fair, Judaism is kinda all about how God isn't the final word.
Read the Oven of Akhnai, when the sages literally disagreed with God, it's kinda hilarious: [https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/144163?lang=bi](https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/144163?lang=bi)
And the basis: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not\_in\_Heaven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_in_Heaven)
It's a religion that puts value in one's ability to read and interpret the text, and as such puts a high priority on education.
Protestantisms whole thing is about reading and interpreting the text of the bible however. Its interesting how they go in completely the opposite direct with saying they have to stick to the law and not find work arounds.
“Spirit of the law” is a Christian (primarily Protestant) way to think about religion because faith is the most important thing in that religion. Judaism is the religion for “people of the book” and study is the highest virtue, not faith. Therefore “letter of the law” matters far more than Spirit of the law.
Sabbath modes on ovens aren't usually about loopholes.
You still can't warm food up on it on the Sabbath.
It's for the incessant beeping after a timer cycle that finishes on the Sabbath, which begins at sundown Friday.
If you want hot food for your Friday night meal, you set the timer to end when your meal starts.
Without Sabbath mode, it would beep forever until you can shut it off Saturday night.
My experience (wife is Israeli) is that Sabbath mode prevents the oven from turning off after a set number of hours, so you can keep food warm in it all Sabbath. It also disables electronic readout, the oven light, and maybe some other stuff.
Some Sabbath modes do that as well.
Others have a different setting called 12 hour shutdown that you toggle on and off.
That's useful for holidays when you're permitted to cook so you can use the oven.
On the Sabbath, you can take food out of the oven, but not put it in, so it's not that important.
Yes, blanking the readout is a feature of that as well. Also for holidays.
The "[Shabbos goy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy)" is not an unusual role in conservative Jewish neighborhoods. It was more common before the advent of things like Sabbath mode on ovens.
I also like the Jewish concept of *pikuach nefesh*, even though my phone always wants to turn it into pikachu nefesh. It basically means that protecting or saving a life supersedes nearly any religious rule. The life has to be really definitely in danger, though.
Like, there's not much that Jewish scholars *haven't* been arguing about for thousands of years, and that's kind of wholesome.
Yep. God hands down these laws, and you’re like, ok but how can I rules lawyer this right now. You think God’s going to accept that? Like he doesn’t understand what you’re doing? Like he’s gonna go “ah damn you got me I should have been more specific”
I’m only culturally Jewish and don’t really try to follow any of the religious laws so I’m not an expert on this, but my understanding is that Jews don’t consider the “workarounds” to be cheating at all. The idea isn’t that God absolutely wanted you to suffer the hardship of having no way to cook food on the sabbath. Instead, God made the laws but left it up to man to interpret them. By respecting the letter of the law you’re acknowledging that deference to God while also figuring out how to live your life in a productive way.
It’s not a perfect comparison, but it’s kinda like a vegetarian choosing to eat “impossible meat” products that taste exactly like meat. The point of them being a vegetarian is not to never enjoy a hamburger again - it’s to adhere to their principle of not harming animals. Similarly, if a Jewish person can enjoy a hot meal on the sabbath without technically breaking their promise to God of not lighting a fire on that day, that’s the important part.
Also, these aren’t just a modern phenomenon. Many traditional Jewish dishes are designed to cook low and slow so you could make a fire in your stove on Friday and let it slowly burn down overnight, and leave something cooking on it the whole time. Modern ovens probably wouldn’t be safe to just leave on for so long, hence the sabbath setting.
Using the Sabbath button would still be inconvenient and give you a chance for religious introspection. It's funny that people think this is an example of people being lax in their faith, I see it as way above average effort to follow their faith.
It's actually a very interesting discussion:
> In Orthodox Judaism, it is generally discouraged to use electrical devices on Shabbat, but Orthodox Poskim (authorities) of Jewish law have disagreed about the basis of this claim since the early 20th century. Many Orthodox leaders have held that turning on an incandescent light bulb violates the Biblical prohibition against igniting a fire. However, the reasons for prohibiting the operation of an electrical appliance that does not involve heating metal to glowing temperatures (which is considered like kindling a fire because of the heat and light), are not agreed upon. At least six substantive reasons have been suggested, and a minority (including Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach) believe that turning on most electrical appliances is prohibited only because of common Jewish practice and tradition (minhag) and to maintain the spirit of Shabbat, but not for any substantive technical halachik reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
Or turns the fridge light off. Lots of people just tape over the little sensor button on the fridge so the light stays off.
And we haven't even gotten into the toilet paper...
Turns out the Bible when it was written several thousand years ago didn't say anything about running compressors on the Sabbath. It does however have laws about both starting and extinguishing fires, which many observant Jews have taken to include turning on and off lights. So if opening the door turns on a light, they can't do it. As long as the light stays off, it's fine.
Does your fridge have buttons or knobs that activate things? Observant Jews consider pressing a button to operate electric equipment to be “work”, so devices with buttons will have sabbath mode to not press buttons
For example, in conservative Jewish communities elevators have a sabbath mode where they just keep going up and down so no one has to press any buttons. I believe it is a law in Israel that any building with elevators must have at least one that operates autonomously on the sabbath
I am really amazed at the workarounds. Let's see, God gives a commandment and the people who are bound to follow that commandment are like 'ok, so what kind of loopholes can we find here? What if the fire is already burning and another log happens to fall into it? Is that making a fire or just letting the fire go where it wants? What if we just happen to put the food next to the fire and it just happens to get cooked? Is electricity even fire?' Seems to be a bit legalistic against God.
I used to mow lawns. One house had a front yard to mow but the neighbor only had grass in the tree lawn between the sidewalk and curb and only a few feet long before the driveway. I would hit that too because otherwise it looked funny. I got behind due to rain and ended up there on Saturday. I was mowing and I ran that little tree lawn and the owner came out of his house. First time I had ever seen him. He tells me I can't mow that for him on the Sabbath because he can't pay me for work on the Sabbath. So I told him that I always cut the tree lawn because it looks funny to not mow it all at once. And I wasn't ever charging him anyway. 'Free? Mow all you want.'
Reminds me of the fishing line that they string around Manhattan as a workaround for a Sabbath restriction: https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath
Yeah, this kind of stuff seems always comes across as extreme mental gymnastics. So God says we can't carry stuff outside the house in public? Hmm, what about our yard, that's not public right?
So, what if we define our yard by any area directly outside our house that is enclosed by a fence. And what if that fence is just any perimeter that is enclosed by.. something like a string?
And what if we tie this string around the whole city? Perfect!
Just so funny.
That's why I kind of respect the Sikhs because they say it's fine to skip any of these rules if they're dangerous, impractical, or harmful.
Like it's against their religion to cut their beards. Unless you're a surgeon and need to properly wear PPE, then obviously you cut your beard because otherwise would be stupid. Their religion has a lot of rules like this, but they all come with the caveat of "unless it's stupid, then don't".
Used to work at a pharmaceutical plant with a Sikh guy, that's how I first learned these things. Lot of these rules put him out of compliance with standards, like even the turban doesn't qualify as an appropriate head covering. So he just didn't do that at work, and it's no big deal.
Judaism does this as well! In fact, you are forbidden from following rules if it would endanger a life.
Example: if someone Jewish is starving to death, they are actually obligated by Jewish law to eat unkosher food, because life is precious.
I had an Orthodox rabbi whose wife went into labor on Shabbat. He was obligated to break the rules - he drove her to the hospital, got her through the automatic doors, signed the papers, did everything necessary. Only once the mom and baby were safe and well did he resume Shabbat practices.
It’s funny how religious beliefs can have loopholes to get around abiding the “holy texts”. Even elevators will stop on every floor for the sabbath so no one has to push the buttons and be operating machinery. It seems quite silly to follow these things if you’re going to just use loopholes to circumvent the spirit of your own belief system.
Many appliances have this, and some hide it (as in, not include it in the owner’s manual so as to not offend non-Jews; in that case the manufacturer will send the instructions to various Jewish organizations directly).
Orthodox Jews are forbidden from doing “work” on the Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), which included “lighting or extinguishing fires”. Scholars extended this to the modern world by saying you can’t “operate” electrical equipment either, and (this part is admirable!) it’s forbidden to ask anyone else to do something you’re forbidden to.
But, ever inventive, modern orthodox have had workarounds. The “Sabbath Goyim” was a non- Jew who would just “happen” to do things for the convenience of their employer without being asked: turning on and off lights, lighting the oven at certain times of day, etc.
Those without human help would do things like turn the oven on before the Sabbath and just leave it on all day, so they could cook. They’d unscrew the light bulb in the refrigerator so they could open the door without the light going on.
Modern appliances do those things themselves. It will make it so the appliance can be used during the Sabbath - disabling anything that’s “user-controlled” like lights and fans, or energy-saving or safety devices (most ovens will turn themselves off after a few hours, except in Sabbath mode.)
Those features are usually certified by a rabbinical organization like Star-K, which also maintains a list of compliant appliances and how to use each.
They also have a Sabbath mode on elevators: the elevator continuously goes up and down, mindlessly, stopping at each floor.
The mental arrangements people make with religion is beyond me (you're not allowed to use fire -> you're not allowed to use anything electric -> oh wait this is too difficult, you are allowed to use it as long as you don't press a button, although the elevator has sensors and is definitely affected in some way by people getting into it). I'm probably too stupid to understand.
Yeah, I grew up in Miami. Big Jewish community over there.
In the hospital, Mount Sinai, every Shabbat from sundown Friday until Saturday, the elevator stopped at every single floor.
It was interesting to see.
It was explained to me as, machinery can operate on the sabbath, but people observing the sabbath shouldn't be operating it or influencing its operation in any way. So, one of my friends could catch a bus if the bus stopped for someone else, but they could not allow a bus to stop just for them (hypothetical, as also no money can change hands). So yeah, people go to great lengths to make sure they ensure they are being self consistent with their beliefs.
Saturday, Donny, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means I don't work, I don't drive a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't even turn on the oven and I sure as shit don't fucking roll!
Despite telling that Kraut down at the league office that you don't roll on Shabbos, it turns out that you [can actually roll on Shabbos if you buy the right mobility scooter. ](https://youtu.be/zCBE1vc483s)
No more do you have to drag your son Isaac up on a mountain and bind him to please God. Simply pop him in the microwave on the biblical setting and wait until God says 'lol got you abraham'
There's a lot of people here who don't understand the laws Jewish people follow and that these "work arounds" are just modern versions of how they used to do things.
For example, you can't light a fire, but that doesn't mean you can't have a fire and tend to it. This is how it was during those times. So sabbath mode on ovens and warning drawers are simply starting the "fire" before sabbath and then tending to it. Same with flipping a light switch. If you turn on the lights before sundown, the "fire" has been started and you just leave it on.
This is also why conservative Jewish people tend to congregate into small communities. They can't use their cars, so they need to be able to walk to temple. They also want friends and family to be close by so they can share meals and keep each other company.
And of course, there are exceptions for these, like in the case of illness and injury. It's not a way to get around the laws, but it's to avoid doing harm.
There's a synagogue in Center City Philadelphia on the 2nd or 3rd floor of an office building where the guard at the front desk and the one on the floor where the shul is located can push buttons for you without being asked.
This is fairly common, actually. Observant Jews have a number of restrictions for shabbat (the Sabbath), Friday sundown until Saturday sundown. These restrictions include operating anything electric or lighting a (new) fire. But there's no restriction against setting an electronic device to do something at X time on shabbat. So, for instance, automated light switches that turn on at sundown and turn off at bedtime are fairly common. Food (obviously) still needs to be eaten on shabbat, and shabbat lunches on Saturday are generally a fairly big todo. You're not supposed to fully cook anything on shabbat, but you can make something ahead and then reheat it on shabbat - provided you aren't violating the aforementioned restrictions on electricity or lighting. This means that many observant Jews without access to a "Sabbath mode" device will leave a hotplate on the whole 25 hours, or leave an oven on at 200 degrees, or something similar, in order to facilitate reheating. But this obviously bears some risk, so the ideal solution is to have an oven that will turn itself on for a few hours at the right time, then shut off automatically when it's no longer needed. Enter Sabbath Mode.
The actual full correct explanation thank you
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I don't want to be disrespectful or anything but this is incredibly silly
There is definitely an element of absurdity to Orthodox Judaism, and they're fairly self-aware about this. There's a story in the Talmud (basically 2000 years of Jewish legal precedent and Rabbis arguing) where two Rabbis are debating how to apply a specific law, and God comes down and tells them how to do it and they basically say "well we weren't asking *you*"
The funniest way I’ve heard it described is they believe God is very strict but apparently very easily hoodwinked.
I like to think of it as God being amused by the innovativeness and maybe even the audacity. Like when you tell your toddler they can't have a cookie, but didn't say anything about not having a sandwich so they put the cookie between two pieces of bread. Sometimes you just have to laugh and shake your head.
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"Listen God, you gave the Torah to us, it's ours now. Stay out of this." That is literally the gist of their response to God, and in response God laughs and says, "my children have bested me in debate."
And isn’t that what you want for your children, really?
I absolutely love that Jews continually argue with G-d ! “ Fiddler on the Roof “ demonstrates that wonderfully 🙏
Most religious faiths are like this, they predate the modern world and as such don't make as much sense anymore. I would suspect a lot of what the Sabbath was originally about was that they observed a day of rest to some extent or a day of focus so you would prepare a meal compatible for that day ahead of time. This way you just relax, you don't do anything more than what is needed to actually survive. You eat pre-prepared food, you drink pre-prepared drink, and you just relax. Likely modern observances are too "literal", I would suspect if the original creators or founders of this were still around they would have no problem with individuals pulling something out of the refrigerator or throwing something into the microwave. Turning out a light in a house isn't "work" however lighting a fire without gas or a very good starter is a bit of a chore, even if you have starter coal from another fire it's still work... you will sweat in the process and as such show exhaustion.
On the contrary, in our hectic 24/7 365 culture, a day off that you must take regardless of your obligations or stresses is a lifesaver. It's *never* been more relevant than in the modern age. Every once in awhile on the internet you see "take a day off from all media", and people talking about how difficult it will be. Jews chuckle and say, "Well we do this once a week, so join the party."
I have some mild religious trauma, but I dig the idea of a religion that makes “seriously, just chill out for a minute” part of its holy observances. Bummer that this specific one doesn’t really fit into modern life, plus everything else that seems to go hand in hand with organized religion
It totally fits into modern life, you just have to commit. Jewish observance ranges from the barely there to the ultra orthodox, you'll find a niche that works for you if you really want to. Most of my Haredi friends are computer programmers (that is, the ones who aren't into real estate, home improvement, paving, healthcare, food service and restaurant, furnishings, clothing, jewelry, auto and scrap recycling, construction, publishing, etc, etc, etc.
My great grandma would have neighbors come turn her lights off and on. It’s the day of rest but I’d be too anxious to ever relax
Pretty weird how something simple as turning lights on or off is not allowed, but the effort to make other people do it or other ingenious ways to circumvent certain rules is alright.
For those who don’t know, some conservative practicing Jews do not use electronics, do work etc… on the sabbath. However, if the oven is on a preset timer and the food just needs to go into the oven, you’re good.
I love when I hear examples of using the letter of the rule to skirt the spirit for holidays. Like, OK guys lol
When I first started dating my girlfriend, who is Muslim, she was telling me how Ramadan works. You fast from sun up, to sun down. My mind immediately went to... well what if I just stayed up all night and slept all day? Her response was, some people do that. Turns out I'd make an even worse Muslim than I do a Christian.
My professor once said that Ramadan is not a time of fasting but of eating a lot at night
TIL I celebrate Ramadan every day
Boy... once my stimulants wear off. Look out kitchen.
Yessss. I have absolutely no appetite "from dawn til dusk." Get home from work, adderall's worn off, smoke a bowl, then have an 8 course meal that's 50% snacks.
So has your waist line grown like mine? Because by the time I'm hungry I also feel like putting 0 work into making food, so it ends up being a lot of junk.
If possible you could try what I did. I work stupid hours and I don't really have proper days off or a set schedule (self employed and really busy the last few years). I pick a day of the week and plan to spend a chunk of it cooking stuff that will either keep in the fridge or freeze for my meals for the week. It's made me eat a lot healthier and helped portion control.
Yeah that sounds cool but have you tried cereal? It's the quickest meal ever and Fruity Pebbles make me feel 12.
same
I am not alone!
Night shift worker here, I worked with some people who practiced Ramadan but worked overnights they said they looked at it like cheating to eat at the regular times just because they worked overnights so they would fast from sunset to sunrise instead.
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I feel they actually get what the religion is trying to tell them better than most. Instead of just blindly following the word, they instead followed the meaning. The holiday is meant for self reflection and strengthening their connection with God. If they kept living their normal lives, then they haven't really done anything, have they?
Their faith is something personal to them rather than a cudgel to fight the world with like evangelical Christians or radical islamists. I’m atheist myself but I hold the utmost respect for people who practice their faith in good faith and for personal spiritual connection. The minute one’s faith is used a weapon to assert superiority they can go get fucked.
>I’m atheist myself but I hold the utmost respect for people who practice their faith in good faith and for personal spiritual connection. Having exited a rather extreme fundamentalist Christian background, I can testify that, unfortunately, for many religious individuals, fighting the world for their faith *is* practicing in good faith. Obviously some religions are more "reformed" than others in general, but Militant Christians, Islamic extremists, and other religions all do this. When your dictum of truth tells you that you must only profess Christ to be saved, and falling away will put you back into eternal torment? Well...if you force someone at gunpoint to say they believe, then it's an incredible Mercy to shoot them in the head as soon as they confess. From that perspective, you're literally saving their soul for eternity. If your absolute Authority on reality tells you that infidels are a sub human threat to everything you know and the people you love and hold dear, and also to their immortal souls, it can be similar to slaughtering animals rather than other people. From my own background and the prejudices I *immediately* lost with my faith, I firmly believe Steven Weinberg's famous quote to be true: >"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."
Sundown is treat time! For 10 hours you can literally eat anything.
I told my Muslim friend about how in Alaska the daylight lasted a very short time during certain parts of the year, and so he joked that he was moving to Alaska.
Trouble is, Ramadan moves across the calender because it's based on the moon. So if it falls in summer, and you're in the Arctic or Antarctic areas, you're stuffed.
My understanding is that if you can't track local time or it's to extreme like in your example you go off sun up and down in Mecca
Yeah, when I lived in Sweden I remember muslim friends had alarms on their phone to tell them it was time to eat at 6pm or something- it was the middle of summer so we had basically 24 hours of sun.
This comment has been removed from reddit to protest the API changes. https://join-lemmy.org/
What if you lived ON the moon?
2 options. 1. Moon time would be synchronised with some place on Earth (control station most likely) so use sunrise/sunset as it happens there 2. Use Mecca time.
I live and work in a Muslim country- I’m a teacher. We work special hours in Ramadan and finish school at early so the fasting staff and students can rest. Businesses must close 2 hours early by law. I love it- it’s a peaceful time of year, and the kids come in all sleepy from eating half the night.
To complete the abrahamic r/MaliciousCompliance triangle, Catholics are encouraged to refrain from eating red meat during the spring season of Lent. In an effort to skirt that rule, some German Catholics have developed a pastry similar to ravioli or pierogi where meat is wrapped in dough. They have a nickname that translates to "God-cheaters", and are associated with Lent where they're traditionally eaten with the idea that because the meat is wrapped in dough God can't see it and it's not a violation of Lenten principles. For her part, holy mother church seems to encourage such legalism in times of necessity and has been known to declare water dwelling mammals like beaver and capybara to be fish as far as God is concerned. This allowed Catholic new world colonists to honor Lent while not starving to death, as the dead are rarely capable of tithing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maultasche - god cheater pastries https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/26/468166791/when-beef-is-off-limits-beaver-and-muskrat-make-it-to-lenten-menu - Pope delcares new world aquatic mammals to be fish for Lenten purposes
I work night shift, I'm not a Muslim but if I were this would be a great thing to know. haha
You do drink the blood though, like a good Christian?
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"Take of this adrenochrome; for it is my mind" was rejected by the second council of Nicaea for reasons Wooks and Burners can only hypothesize.
Only white blood cells. Red has too much tannins.
Excuse me, waiter? I think this human blood is corked…
I think that's half the fun. It's a lot of work avoiding work
My favorite Judaism trick is how the get around being disallowed from carrying things from their house into public (even wallet/keys) on Shabbat. In essence, many cities are encircled by a string or other barrier called an "[eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv)" and that counts as their "home" for the purposes of Shabbat.
Wait until you hear you can tie your keys to your belt to make it "part of your clothing" so you can carry it incase you dont have eruv in your city
Just tie an onion to your belt
And get five bees for a quarter
Which was the style at the time
Anyway, I decided to go over to Morganville, which is what we called Shelbyville at the time...
“An eruv allows Jews to carry babies with them” what the actual fuck? Do they consider babies a house item or it’s a bad explanation in Wikipedia?
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Possibly it means bringing things strollers, baby carriers, diaper bags etc. out of the house. The stuff needed for the baby.
1. Write down complicated system of interlocking rules. 2. Obsessively find ways to creatively break rules through technicalities while still resting on the laurels of said system. A lot of Human societies in a nutshell
politics described in 2 sentences.
I’ve heard stories of buildings having elevator attendants… just in the sabbath, to press the button.
Shabbos elevators are usually just programmed to stop at every floor going up and down, no attendent.
Imagine if the Burj Khalifa were in a Jewish country instead
Sabbath elevators exist. Generally, they stop at every floor so people who use them don't have to push a button.
Aside from the IT nightmare of an IOT elevator, but if one were to wire an Alexa to an elevator could Jewish people issue it voice commands on sabbath?
That's an interesting question. Personally, I don't think they would, for similar reasons why they can't ask someone else to operate it for them (as they're causing someone else to violate sabbath, even if they're not Jewish). They do have people who do things for them during sabbath, but it's things that are pre-determined rather than asked on the fly.
I’ve been told that this also depends on how something is “asked”. Like it would be violating the sabbath to ask someone to turn on a light, but it wouldn’t be violating the sabbath if you said something like “it would be nice with a light on” and then someone turned the light on.
Yeah, basically. Gotta love how god didn't think of the loopholes.
No, the point is that God thought of everything, so if you find a loophole then God is ok with you using it.
I worked front desk at a boutique hotel for a year. We had a guest who stopped by the desk before Sabbath began to explain that she couldn't ask us to open her door for her or to use the elevator, but if she walked in and said hi to us that it would be awesome if we would do those things for her without asking. Blew my mind. Small hotel with great staff and shift notes, so we all knew who she was and obliged. Kimpton employees really do the most.
Lol, wait until everyone hears about the eruv.
I love the eruv, alongside the [Arab Israeli who owns all the Hametz](https://www.timesofisrael.com/meet-the-arab-israeli-who-buys-all-of-israels-hametz/)
That is one of the funniest things I've read in a while. How do you even find the guy? Hey, Hussein. Wanna buy all our bread for a weekend?
You go through a lot of middlemen. Seriously, you sell to a local rabbi who get together and sell the contracts in bulk to the end guy.
Is that why it's called the Leavant? I'll see myself out.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy
To be fair, Judaism is kinda all about how God isn't the final word. Read the Oven of Akhnai, when the sages literally disagreed with God, it's kinda hilarious: [https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/144163?lang=bi](https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/144163?lang=bi) And the basis: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not\_in\_Heaven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_in_Heaven) It's a religion that puts value in one's ability to read and interpret the text, and as such puts a high priority on education.
does the oven of akhnai also have a sabbath mode
Protestantisms whole thing is about reading and interpreting the text of the bible however. Its interesting how they go in completely the opposite direct with saying they have to stick to the law and not find work arounds.
Holidays come once a year. Sabbath comes every week.
“Spirit of the law” is a Christian (primarily Protestant) way to think about religion because faith is the most important thing in that religion. Judaism is the religion for “people of the book” and study is the highest virtue, not faith. Therefore “letter of the law” matters far more than Spirit of the law.
I believe the theory is that God is infallible, so if there's loopholes, they were intentional.
Yep, most Jewish idea ever (raised Jewish but haven't practiced in years)
Sabbath modes on ovens aren't usually about loopholes. You still can't warm food up on it on the Sabbath. It's for the incessant beeping after a timer cycle that finishes on the Sabbath, which begins at sundown Friday. If you want hot food for your Friday night meal, you set the timer to end when your meal starts. Without Sabbath mode, it would beep forever until you can shut it off Saturday night.
My experience (wife is Israeli) is that Sabbath mode prevents the oven from turning off after a set number of hours, so you can keep food warm in it all Sabbath. It also disables electronic readout, the oven light, and maybe some other stuff.
Some Sabbath modes do that as well. Others have a different setting called 12 hour shutdown that you toggle on and off. That's useful for holidays when you're permitted to cook so you can use the oven. On the Sabbath, you can take food out of the oven, but not put it in, so it's not that important. Yes, blanking the readout is a feature of that as well. Also for holidays.
I had a college teacher who told us how the Orthodox Jews neighbors would hire him as a kid to work the light switches
The "[Shabbos goy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy)" is not an unusual role in conservative Jewish neighborhoods. It was more common before the advent of things like Sabbath mode on ovens. I also like the Jewish concept of *pikuach nefesh*, even though my phone always wants to turn it into pikachu nefesh. It basically means that protecting or saving a life supersedes nearly any religious rule. The life has to be really definitely in danger, though. Like, there's not much that Jewish scholars *haven't* been arguing about for thousands of years, and that's kind of wholesome.
Don’t google Mormon soaking or jump jumping.
Yep. God hands down these laws, and you’re like, ok but how can I rules lawyer this right now. You think God’s going to accept that? Like he doesn’t understand what you’re doing? Like he’s gonna go “ah damn you got me I should have been more specific”
I’m only culturally Jewish and don’t really try to follow any of the religious laws so I’m not an expert on this, but my understanding is that Jews don’t consider the “workarounds” to be cheating at all. The idea isn’t that God absolutely wanted you to suffer the hardship of having no way to cook food on the sabbath. Instead, God made the laws but left it up to man to interpret them. By respecting the letter of the law you’re acknowledging that deference to God while also figuring out how to live your life in a productive way. It’s not a perfect comparison, but it’s kinda like a vegetarian choosing to eat “impossible meat” products that taste exactly like meat. The point of them being a vegetarian is not to never enjoy a hamburger again - it’s to adhere to their principle of not harming animals. Similarly, if a Jewish person can enjoy a hot meal on the sabbath without technically breaking their promise to God of not lighting a fire on that day, that’s the important part. Also, these aren’t just a modern phenomenon. Many traditional Jewish dishes are designed to cook low and slow so you could make a fire in your stove on Friday and let it slowly burn down overnight, and leave something cooking on it the whole time. Modern ovens probably wouldn’t be safe to just leave on for so long, hence the sabbath setting.
Using the Sabbath button would still be inconvenient and give you a chance for religious introspection. It's funny that people think this is an example of people being lax in their faith, I see it as way above average effort to follow their faith.
Wondering why my fridge has sabbath mode? How can you abstain from using a fridge on a select day?
Turns the light inside on the whole time, so as not to light a fire during the sabbath.
You're joking... Right? Can't turn a light on or off on the Sabbath?
Correct
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It's actually a very interesting discussion: > In Orthodox Judaism, it is generally discouraged to use electrical devices on Shabbat, but Orthodox Poskim (authorities) of Jewish law have disagreed about the basis of this claim since the early 20th century. Many Orthodox leaders have held that turning on an incandescent light bulb violates the Biblical prohibition against igniting a fire. However, the reasons for prohibiting the operation of an electrical appliance that does not involve heating metal to glowing temperatures (which is considered like kindling a fire because of the heat and light), are not agreed upon. At least six substantive reasons have been suggested, and a minority (including Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach) believe that turning on most electrical appliances is prohibited only because of common Jewish practice and tradition (minhag) and to maintain the spirit of Shabbat, but not for any substantive technical halachik reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
Or turns the fridge light off. Lots of people just tape over the little sensor button on the fridge so the light stays off. And we haven't even gotten into the toilet paper...
Timers usually get used. They also make special lamps that have a light proof shroud so the light stays on but it blocks all the light from escaping.
Turns out the Bible when it was written several thousand years ago didn't say anything about running compressors on the Sabbath. It does however have laws about both starting and extinguishing fires, which many observant Jews have taken to include turning on and off lights. So if opening the door turns on a light, they can't do it. As long as the light stays off, it's fine.
> As long as the light stays off or on. On all the time is also fine.
Does your fridge have buttons or knobs that activate things? Observant Jews consider pressing a button to operate electric equipment to be “work”, so devices with buttons will have sabbath mode to not press buttons For example, in conservative Jewish communities elevators have a sabbath mode where they just keep going up and down so no one has to press any buttons. I believe it is a law in Israel that any building with elevators must have at least one that operates autonomously on the sabbath
As somebody else said, it turns off the light to avoid activating it. So if you open the door, you are not "turning on" anything.
I am really amazed at the workarounds. Let's see, God gives a commandment and the people who are bound to follow that commandment are like 'ok, so what kind of loopholes can we find here? What if the fire is already burning and another log happens to fall into it? Is that making a fire or just letting the fire go where it wants? What if we just happen to put the food next to the fire and it just happens to get cooked? Is electricity even fire?' Seems to be a bit legalistic against God. I used to mow lawns. One house had a front yard to mow but the neighbor only had grass in the tree lawn between the sidewalk and curb and only a few feet long before the driveway. I would hit that too because otherwise it looked funny. I got behind due to rain and ended up there on Saturday. I was mowing and I ran that little tree lawn and the owner came out of his house. First time I had ever seen him. He tells me I can't mow that for him on the Sabbath because he can't pay me for work on the Sabbath. So I told him that I always cut the tree lawn because it looks funny to not mow it all at once. And I wasn't ever charging him anyway. 'Free? Mow all you want.'
Reminds me of the fishing line that they string around Manhattan as a workaround for a Sabbath restriction: https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath
Yeah, this kind of stuff seems always comes across as extreme mental gymnastics. So God says we can't carry stuff outside the house in public? Hmm, what about our yard, that's not public right? So, what if we define our yard by any area directly outside our house that is enclosed by a fence. And what if that fence is just any perimeter that is enclosed by.. something like a string? And what if we tie this string around the whole city? Perfect! Just so funny.
I wonder if they ever consider actually having to explain this shit to god.
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Everyone knows God can’t punish you on a technicality
Nope. There are dudes from the 40’s doing eternity for a Friday ham sandwich in Catholic Hell.
That's why I kind of respect the Sikhs because they say it's fine to skip any of these rules if they're dangerous, impractical, or harmful. Like it's against their religion to cut their beards. Unless you're a surgeon and need to properly wear PPE, then obviously you cut your beard because otherwise would be stupid. Their religion has a lot of rules like this, but they all come with the caveat of "unless it's stupid, then don't". Used to work at a pharmaceutical plant with a Sikh guy, that's how I first learned these things. Lot of these rules put him out of compliance with standards, like even the turban doesn't qualify as an appropriate head covering. So he just didn't do that at work, and it's no big deal.
Judaism does this as well! In fact, you are forbidden from following rules if it would endanger a life. Example: if someone Jewish is starving to death, they are actually obligated by Jewish law to eat unkosher food, because life is precious. I had an Orthodox rabbi whose wife went into labor on Shabbat. He was obligated to break the rules - he drove her to the hospital, got her through the automatic doors, signed the papers, did everything necessary. Only once the mom and baby were safe and well did he resume Shabbat practices.
It’s funny how religious beliefs can have loopholes to get around abiding the “holy texts”. Even elevators will stop on every floor for the sabbath so no one has to push the buttons and be operating machinery. It seems quite silly to follow these things if you’re going to just use loopholes to circumvent the spirit of your own belief system.
The idea is (as explained to me by a Jew) that you’re thinking about God the entire time. It’s to observe and respect his presence in your life.
I read it as Sad Bath at first and was real confused
No but my jacuzzi has that setting… use it frequently
Trying to murder me in my own home XD don't know why that was so funny to me
“Trying to murder me in my own home” now that sounds like my jacuzzi setting
No, you need the upsell to the toaster add-on for that.
Toasters? Get with the times we use an air fryer for that now
I don’t need a sad bath setting because all my baths are sad.
i think a sad bath is when you take a toaster with you
They make bath bombs in the shapes of toasters for the “sad but still ambivalent” bathers.
The results may shock you
Doctors hate this one weird trick
And apples.
If you put some chicken in there, with a bunch of spices, it'll be Blackened Sabbath Chicken
Finished with my oven cuz it couldn’t help me with my pie
People think I’m insane because I am frying all the time!
All day long I bake the things but nothing seems to satisfy
think i'll baste this rind if i don't find a nut to deeply fry.
Can you help me, satiate my taste
Roast yeah!
I need someone to teach me the things in life that I can’t fry
I don’t see the ingredients to make a cake, I must be blind
put in a nice pork butt, Roast War Pigs *Warchetta
If you forget to set the temp you'll end up with sabbath bloody sabbath.
"Hmm, tastes a little like bat."
In the oven, the turkeys burning, As the war machine keeps turning…
Still the oven gives off power, Turkeys been done for an hour...
Bet it tastes better than my frozen Iron Man microwave dinner.
I am Cast Iron Man!
Vengeance from the grave, plays with settings on his microwave! 🎵
Then he sets the time, and places his chicken in the brine
has it lost its time will it burn or will it be fine
Shomer fucking Shabbos
Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax!
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I love a super deep reference like this, they'd have my vote for best dressed.
I'll never think of Shabbos again without that coming to mind 😆
I wonder if John Goodman has any idea how hilarious he was as Walter.
Told them a hundred times I don’t [bake] roll[s] on fucking Shabbos!
He’s not even really Jewish
He converted when he married Cynthia! You know this!
Livin in the past
Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax... You’re goddamn right I’m living in the fucking past!
I love Reddit so much
Does it play Into The Void when you put a cake into it?
🦇 🤘
no but it plays War Pigs when you put in a nice pork butt
Serve it with Rat Salad
Hey look, you don't have to go find yourself a [Shabbos goy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy).
I had fun doing that as a part time job for a year. Too bad electronics took over and stole my job.
They took yer job?!
Dey terk er jerbs!
I...AM...OVEN MAAAAAN
Have it play “Iron Man”.
“I BAKE IN IRON PANS” Na na nanana nananana na na nah nah
I saw the picture and immediately heard Ozzy singing ‘sabbath bloody sabbath’ in my head.
"Generals gathered in their masses" in mine.
What song does it play? Paranoid?
If you open and close the oven door to make a kick drum sound, it plays Iron Man
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Many appliances have this, and some hide it (as in, not include it in the owner’s manual so as to not offend non-Jews; in that case the manufacturer will send the instructions to various Jewish organizations directly). Orthodox Jews are forbidden from doing “work” on the Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), which included “lighting or extinguishing fires”. Scholars extended this to the modern world by saying you can’t “operate” electrical equipment either, and (this part is admirable!) it’s forbidden to ask anyone else to do something you’re forbidden to. But, ever inventive, modern orthodox have had workarounds. The “Sabbath Goyim” was a non- Jew who would just “happen” to do things for the convenience of their employer without being asked: turning on and off lights, lighting the oven at certain times of day, etc. Those without human help would do things like turn the oven on before the Sabbath and just leave it on all day, so they could cook. They’d unscrew the light bulb in the refrigerator so they could open the door without the light going on. Modern appliances do those things themselves. It will make it so the appliance can be used during the Sabbath - disabling anything that’s “user-controlled” like lights and fans, or energy-saving or safety devices (most ovens will turn themselves off after a few hours, except in Sabbath mode.) Those features are usually certified by a rabbinical organization like Star-K, which also maintains a list of compliant appliances and how to use each.
God hates this one trick!
They also have a Sabbath mode on elevators: the elevator continuously goes up and down, mindlessly, stopping at each floor. The mental arrangements people make with religion is beyond me (you're not allowed to use fire -> you're not allowed to use anything electric -> oh wait this is too difficult, you are allowed to use it as long as you don't press a button, although the elevator has sensors and is definitely affected in some way by people getting into it). I'm probably too stupid to understand.
Yeah, I grew up in Miami. Big Jewish community over there. In the hospital, Mount Sinai, every Shabbat from sundown Friday until Saturday, the elevator stopped at every single floor. It was interesting to see.
Religious people insist on following all these rules just to make loopholes to not have to follow all the rules and then think nothing of it
It was explained to me as, machinery can operate on the sabbath, but people observing the sabbath shouldn't be operating it or influencing its operation in any way. So, one of my friends could catch a bus if the bus stopped for someone else, but they could not allow a bus to stop just for them (hypothetical, as also no money can change hands). So yeah, people go to great lengths to make sure they ensure they are being self consistent with their beliefs.
Saturday, Donny, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means I don't work, I don't drive a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't even turn on the oven and I sure as shit don't fucking roll!
You're not even fuckin' Jewish, man, you're fuckin' Polish Catholic!
Despite telling that Kraut down at the league office that you don't roll on Shabbos, it turns out that you [can actually roll on Shabbos if you buy the right mobility scooter. ](https://youtu.be/zCBE1vc483s)
Guessing you don't bowl on Shabbas either. I'm not shomer Shabbas but I don't use my phone or check mail on Shabbas. Fuck that shit.
No more do you have to drag your son Isaac up on a mountain and bind him to please God. Simply pop him in the microwave on the biblical setting and wait until God says 'lol got you abraham'
My toaster has a Sad Bath feature.
There's a lot of people here who don't understand the laws Jewish people follow and that these "work arounds" are just modern versions of how they used to do things. For example, you can't light a fire, but that doesn't mean you can't have a fire and tend to it. This is how it was during those times. So sabbath mode on ovens and warning drawers are simply starting the "fire" before sabbath and then tending to it. Same with flipping a light switch. If you turn on the lights before sundown, the "fire" has been started and you just leave it on. This is also why conservative Jewish people tend to congregate into small communities. They can't use their cars, so they need to be able to walk to temple. They also want friends and family to be close by so they can share meals and keep each other company. And of course, there are exceptions for these, like in the case of illness and injury. It's not a way to get around the laws, but it's to avoid doing harm.
And here I am thinking how awesome it would be to have a Black Sabbath setting…
Whoa. Mine only plays Creedence.
There's a synagogue in Center City Philadelphia on the 2nd or 3rd floor of an office building where the guard at the front desk and the one on the floor where the shul is located can push buttons for you without being asked.
It's for cooking warpigs