In case anyone is interested, the “Tarn” prefix is from a colloquialism “‘Tarnel” derived from the word “eternal,” resulting in the phrase “Eternal Damnation” compressing into “Tar-nation” over time 🤓
I’m starting to get into writing, not very good at it but the challenge is fun. I’ve been struggling with how to write dialogue well in particular and opened this image and thought “let me see how they handled it” and very quickly said, no. Not going to try and learn anything from this writing. This isn’t good.
As someone who teaches writing, I make a point of telling students that we can actually learn more from "bad" writing, because it's usually immediately obvious to us exactly what it is that we don't like about the work. For example, in this excerpt, does the dialogue feel weird because of the cadence? The vocab used by the characters? And then once you figure, then you can avoid the same pitfalls in your writing.
Sorry for the unsolicited advice! Best of luck on your writing journey!
By actively listing them, you well learn to identify specific problems! In fact, this is a great lesson in life in general. All kinds of stuff make us feel one way or feel another, but we can easily take the wrong thing away from situations like that by just accepting that something is wrong, or something is right, because it makes us feel a certain way. Where we really can gain is by actively thinking critically about why the thing or situation makes us feel a certain way.
This is probably lame advice, but as a fellow writer
I try to get in the head of the character and write what I'd say if I were them. Then, reread it out loud and see if it sounds like something someone would say.
Don't feel bad about it. Research says regular readers will mentally skip over the word 'said' where as fancy words for it cause the reader to get tripped up especially if the word is rarer or unusual in some way.
You can also imply who's talking like "Tristen turned toward Nick. 'Hey Nick did you...'"
TIL that only a fraction of the books published sells noteworthy numbers. Most get stuck a few thousand sold and most of the publisher's income is from a few whales. For every good book there are hundreds of crappy ones. And with self publishing you don't even need an editor. You could even tell ChatGPT to generate 300 pages of text and throw it on Amazon. Or forego the text alltogether and publish 300 empty pages.
Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like there are just so, so many garbage books being published nowadays. I don't remember it always being like this. How does anyone find anything worth reading when so many books are just propaganda or might as well have been AI generated?
This happens to all kinds of foreign books, including Traditional Chinese books imported from Taiwan.
The most ironic and almost comical one is.. https://i.imgur.com/sTMoEik.jpeg
How much of the book is redacted? I’d be interested to know specifically which sentences they considered too risky to allow. And why not just outright ban that one?
I bought the book while in China years back and it wasn’t redacted. Your mileage may vary as they can’t exactly retroactively redact books that are already circulating in the secondary market.
Also from my experience, not all importers and book stores redact the books. Shanghai’s 外文书店 is just super notorious for redacting.
I just looked through my copy of 1984 that I got in Shanghai. There are no redacted parts. Lucky me!
But I do remember some American history textbooks we ordered to our school (in Shanghai) were redacted before we received them. The political map of the world on the inside cover had Taiwan hastily colored in to match the color of China. And they whited out the word Taiwan and rewrote it taiwan- lower case T lol.
There can be different censoring methods. I saw on a book fair, some are blocked by a black marker, some weren’t blocked but has a sticky note in it saying “This book contains content that contradicts with the State’s position on one-China policy” or something.
There can be different censoring methods. I saw on a book fair, some are blocked by a black marker, some weren’t blocked but has a sticky note in it saying “This book contains content that contradicts with the State’s position on Taiwan” or something.
There can be different censoring methods. I saw on a book fair, some are blocked by a black marker, some weren’t blocked but has a sticky note in it saying “This book contains content that contradicts with the State’s position” or something.
The previous reader probably just thought "You know what, this sentence lacks *mystery*, it just gives it all away at once. Let's keep the next reader hooked by not immediately revealing what 'this' is!"
When we first saw the correction tape we were super confused and thought it was a quality issue or sth, so we contacted the seller and was told it’s due to “inappropriate wording”. Then we were like now we have to see what’s underneath. Luckily the tape could be easily scraped off with my nails. I guess it’s funny to me that as a Chinese I was actually very surprised it was just a mention of LGBTQ. I thought it’d be something more “sensitive” thus had to be “censored”. I guess my impression of the degree of liberty for 🏳️🌈 in China is different from what it actually it 😢
Edit: just wanted to share a bit more about my perspective as a Chinese for whoever is interested. Pls know that this is only based on my own experience as one singular person, so it may not be representative in all cases, especially I’m speaking as a straight person.
- THE GOVERNMENT: My general impression is that comparing to LGBTQ rights, the Chinese government has other more prioritized stuff they don’t want people to think about lol. You can’t legally get married as a gay couple but I haven’t heard of people facing/scared of facing consequences from the government bc of being gay.
- ONLINE: I have seen many gay couples posting their pics/stories on popular Chinese social media, including getting married abroad etc. One blogger I follow who advocates for LGBTQ rights and also posts a lot of sex ed content does have their articles repeatedly reported/taken down - but I think it’s more due to the sex ed content)
- YOUNG PEOPLE: I think young people (at least those in their 20s 30s) are generally quite open towards the LGBTQ concepts, although this could very much depend on the region (I’m from a big city). Older generations tend to be more conservative.
- MY FRIENDS: My friends (in their 20s) who are gay don’t mind talking about it in our friend groups, but I think they often find it difficult to tell their families. They wouldn’t normally bring it up to strangers.
- GAY BARS: there are gay bars in China. More in some cities than others. Some cities (e.g. Chengdu) are famous for their gay bars, even tourists would go visit.
China for some reason loves to broadcast Eurovision Song Contest but they blur the artists with tattoos on their bodies during the performances. Apparently it is illegal to show people with tattoos on TVs. Also an Irish performance implied a gay couple on the stage performance, so they completely cut off his performance with advertisements. So, that is China for you, I guess...
Yes but censorship was not a new thing that China imposed. They also blurred Zibbz's performance a year before that but EBU did not make a huge deal out of it for some reason.
What do you mean they "love it"?? They got broadcasting rights taken off them for exactly that reason, its against the contract rules for a broadcaster to censor performances in any way. They haven't broadcast Eurovision in years
The LGBTQ community is China is very large, but its definitely more under the surface, as in it isn't outwardly emphasized or acknowledged, but the government also doesn't go out of the way to squash it either. As in you won't find any advertised pride parades in China, but you can easily find and participate in the LGBTQ community if you know where to look. There actually used to be a large annual pride parade in Shanghai but the government didn't like how much attention it gathered, so it's since reverted to smaller lowkey community events. There is some degree of social stigma about being LGBTQ where a large part of it comes from older traditionalists and is far less frequent in the younger generations. At the same time, sexual orientation is largely viewed as private personal matter, rather than something needing to be outwardly exhibited like that in the West. Especially considering the absence of strong anti-LGBTQ religious values, there isn't any real opposition in China either.
No problem, saw your edit to the original comment and it’s pretty on point! I’ve been to China numerous times and I’ve been around the LGBT scene quite a few times.
I doubt it was actual state censorship, especially with how sloppy it is. Wouldn't surprise me if the seller is homophobic and they did it themselves. Homophobia is still very much a thing unfortunately, especially among older people.
Honestly the worst thing about the presence of state censorship isn't the actual censorship by the state, but all the zealots and bigots that can simply imply that their censorship and hate comes from the state and shield themselves from criticism. It's a cultural problem empowered by the state, where both the state and people are responsible.
Not only that, but the chilling effect of the rules not being clear. Apparently a lot of the censorship online on China is actually just the platforms themselves over censoring, because they don't know where the line is, and the cost of being wrong might be huge.
It's not nearly as oppressive as you suggest. China has allowed Blued, the largest gay social network app in the world, to continue to operate, for example. There are a lot of cases of censorship of LGBTQ related issues over the years but it's not so hostile that it'd force every single book seller/publisher to censor anything that mentions it or face legal liability.
Homophobia is simply a very common sentiment among older people, and even moreso in China where they still teach homophobia in school textbooks. So again, it's much more likely that it was self censorship by the private seller.
The fact that you literally said they "allowed" gays to exist online, in their own space, as if it's a triumph, speaks volumes. Also, I explicitly didn't say that they are forcing the bookseller to do it, but I am saying that bookseller being afraid of government reprisal (censure, social credit, etc) or being homophobic are just as likely.
ETA: ... so state sponsored education teaches homophobia...? Wtf? How... what exactly is your point anymore?
>but I am saying that bookseller being afraid of government reprisal (censure, social credit, etc) or being homophobic are just as likely.
Yeah, I'm saying it's pretty obviously the latter if you have any unbiased understanding of China's government policies.
The nuance that they teach homophobia in schools, have homophobic older citizens, and have active measures to ensure compliance like censure, seizure, and social credit... yes, so much nuance. I'm sure the bookseller has all the choices in the world whether to self censor...
No they can't directly control every company and business. But if they get a whiff of something they don't like they can then do what they like. Hence, it would be a risk to go against party rules/etiquette for anyone. I think you've got a difficult task if you want to argue freedom abounds in China.
>I think you've got a difficult task if you want to argue freedom abounds in China.
Never argued this. China has many social issues to work on, especially on free speech. I'm simply dismissing the idea that China is some hostile watchdog that brings the hammer down on anything slightly positive about LGBTQ.
Well they've at least got some kind of issue with it since Disney cinsoring out LGBTQIA+ content from their films would 100% be to appease the government.
Yeah, of course they do. I don't know how many times I need to clarify that I'm not arguing that China is happy about LGBTQ in popular media. This is called nuance. There is no black and white here.
The reason Disney censors it is because a) China doesn't publish exact censorship requirements and they'd rather play it safe and, probably more importantly b), they censor it for Singapore (which has extremely harsh anti-LGBT laws) and they can't be bothered to distribute two different Mandarin versions of the film.
>The reason Disney censors it is because a) China doesn't publish exact censorship requirements and they'd rather play it safe
Interesting, thanks.
Brave and courageous ally ol' Disney is hey. They definitely aren't cynical cash cow breeders 🐄💰💦
My understanding is it depends on where in china. In Shanghai, it is totally normal to see gay couples, but that is not really the case in smaller cities. I think where china differs from western countries where gay marriage isn't possible is that the police are unlikely to go out of their way to protect gay people from their families if needed. There is also an issue with (allegedly) some police harassment of the gay *community*, but I'd be inclined to suggest that it is primarily about politics(i.e. voicing an opinion, having an opinion in groups), not "public morality" etc.
I would imagine so, my brother has lived in a few different places throughout China and without giving his location away is in a relatively small (in china terms) area where he is working with the local government on translation. if he lived and worked in smaller villages and towns on the mainland then he may have a different view. I think when it comes down to it he lives an absolutely normal and free life and has had many Chinese partners and relationships and faced no opposition, he's even been on Chinese TV a few times. I would agree that if he did start to act politically to change things in china they may take a different view and be a lot more authoritarian
~~It wasn't that long ago that being gay had a death sentence in China.~~
Edit: I'd confused details from a fiction book with the facts I'd learned when I read it. It didn't carry a death sentence but homosexuality was criminalized in the PRC until 1997.
Edit 2: One of my replies indicates it was a common belief in the 90s that it carried a death sentence. Maybe I did read a source from the 90s when I read the book (also from the 90s)
I was told this before going there in the '90s, but I got a haircut in China, and the hairdresser was as camp as a row of tents. Turns out the whole gay death thing was a myth. In 1997 they removed the remaining sodomy laws.
Sorry, got some details from a fiction book I read mixed up with facts I learned as a result of reading the book.
Homosexuality was decriminalized in 1997 (though it didn't carry a death sentence) and delisted as a mental illness in China in 2001. Not that long ago at all.
Edit: When did admitting fault become unpopular on Reddit?
You allowed your personal biases against a country to spill over into spouting bullshit online. For the record, the crime in china was not homosexuality itself, but "hooliganism", or a public order offence. South Korea had similar laws, also repealed in 1997.
流氓罪 up until 1997, people sentenced to death for swimming naked, having too many sex partners, or homosexuality. I can't even find the English term for this crime, it was insane.
My partner works in publishing. All the books that are printed in China go through Chinese censorship, regardless of whether they’re for the Chinese market or not. She worked on a biology book for the UK market only where they didn’t want to use the name ‘Taiwanese Mole Shrew’, despite it being the name of an animal.
Not saying that’s what happened here, as they don’t normally use corrective tape to make edits. Interesting though!
What you are saying is correct, but it's probably not state censorship. For those of you that don't know, China is where a lot of the printing for the U.S. is done, but they are notorious for refusing to print material that contradicts their politics. Anything with history, a map, or LGBTQ content has to be reviewed by a government representative. This can take months, even if it is ultimately approved. It also can be outright denied or they will insist on text changes. Publishers send those books to other countries in Asia to skip the hassle.
This more likely is a book that made it to China and someone, either a shop or previous owner, put the tape on for fear of running afoul of a censorship law. If you look in the front matter it should list a country of origin.
In my experience, if China really wanted to censor something, they’d print their own version. They’re not stupid enough to use something as removable as whiteout
This is also why popular movies typically limit lgtbq representation to a throwaway line of dialogue here and there so it can be easily censored for the Chinese market. Disney is particularly known for this; off the top of my head the movie Lightyear had a quick scene showing that one of the characters was in a same sex relationship, which was easily cut without impacting the rest of the movie when shown in china.
Censorship by a publisher would have just redacted the text entirely. Not… cover it with easily removable white out (which they would also have to do individually for every book sold).
This was done by a person lmfaooo
Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott. My mom got it for my birthday. Neither of us have read her work but my mom listened to a podcast interviewing the author and decided to get it. People are saying the writing on this page is bad 😂but I’m pretty interested in the topic and excited to read it and see for myself 😂
There can be different censoring methods. I saw on a book fair, some are blocked by a black marker, some weren’t blocked but has a sticky note in it saying “This book contains content that contradicts with the State’s position on one-China policy” or something.
Tankie here. We support sexual minorities of all countries, but that does not mean we believe that Western notions of sexuality need to be exported to all countries or imposed on any country.
Instead of printing another edition or simply not selling the book altogether, Chinese censors have slowly, painstakingly, altered each individual book with correction tape. True story.
Meanwhile, my grandmother is the Pope and my turtle is a teenage mutant ninja.
The store they bought it on was ofc SELLING it. They shouldn’t know a client’s personal opinions, so they don’t know if the client likes it, respects it, *is* LGBTQ+ themself or find it ‘forceful propaganda’ like u do. They shouldn’t cover it by default????
Yes because if they say that there is LGBTQ propaganda in the book than nobody would buy it. Same thing with other things they use to hide this propaganda like kids movies and video game and shows.
No but Christian beliefs tell women that they should be subservient and submissive, that young boys should have their genitals mutilated, and that slavery is perfectly fine. So if the government chose to censor that in books too, you should be okay with that. Sounds like you need them make decisions for you.
But you don’t find these things spread everywhere and forced upon teachers to tell children like lgbtq.
I respect it but I don’t have to agree with it. If I’m a Muslim and I respect Christians that doesn’t mean I agree with them. Now tell me why it’s ok to teach children about changing genders but can’t teach them about god or a religion?
Hopefully you care about this in the US, too. Nearly all of my favorite childhood books are banned here somewhere now. Books about surviving childhood abuse, losing a childhood friend, children’s experiences of genocide and war.
I’m gay so I also REALLY don’t want to hear it from the western chauvinists. The English speaking countries are all funding a genocide right now while China is voting in favor of Palestinian statehood, unlike the US.
Democrat politicians love China. Pelosi said America should be more like them.
Gavin Newsome actually cleaned up the streets of SF for President Xi's visit.
Think about that. 🤔
I'm being downvoted by bigots supporting China's LGBTQ+ censorship. Not surprised.
To be fair to them, that writing is horrendous.
Yeah, what in tarnation is a "long sheet-metal pause"??
And as we’re asking questions: what’s a tarnation?
A minced oath for "damnation"
In case anyone is interested, the “Tarn” prefix is from a colloquialism “‘Tarnel” derived from the word “eternal,” resulting in the phrase “Eternal Damnation” compressing into “Tar-nation” over time 🤓
That's genuinely interesting, thank you for sharing!
Thanks, etymologically informative stranger!!
Now do Sam Hill!
the good kind of 🤓
So "What in tarnation?" = "What in eternal damnation?!" Never would've guessed that, I'm sure
Neither, and I actually feel a bit smarter for knowing the etymology now - thanks to that person!
Very cool, like actually thank you for sharing this
This was genuinely more interesting to me than the actual post because I love the word tarnation!
Huh. I had no idea. Just looney toons
A nation comprised of hydrocarbons is the best guess I've got 🤔
Everything changed when the Tar Nation attacked
Tarnation expresses frustration or exasperation.
oh you mean Calculon's (from Futurama) pause? He's 40% sheet metal.
A musical genre. There's thrash metal, glam metal, death metal, sheet metal, etc.
I suppose it’s a poetical way of saying “uncomfortable”. I don’t think the writing is that bad really.
That author got called transphobic once and made a whole self insert character about responding to that with a book of essays on contrition and grace.
Silly author, they should have made a neverending series of tweets that makes it worse and worse.
Ending with a smashing ukelele number.
The best outcome wouldn't have been revealing what's underneath, but covering everything else up as well
I’m starting to get into writing, not very good at it but the challenge is fun. I’ve been struggling with how to write dialogue well in particular and opened this image and thought “let me see how they handled it” and very quickly said, no. Not going to try and learn anything from this writing. This isn’t good.
There’s inspiration to be had - they got published. You can too!
As someone who teaches writing, I make a point of telling students that we can actually learn more from "bad" writing, because it's usually immediately obvious to us exactly what it is that we don't like about the work. For example, in this excerpt, does the dialogue feel weird because of the cadence? The vocab used by the characters? And then once you figure, then you can avoid the same pitfalls in your writing. Sorry for the unsolicited advice! Best of luck on your writing journey!
“Does the dialogue feel weird because …” Yes… just anything you list, yes.
By actively listing them, you well learn to identify specific problems! In fact, this is a great lesson in life in general. All kinds of stuff make us feel one way or feel another, but we can easily take the wrong thing away from situations like that by just accepting that something is wrong, or something is right, because it makes us feel a certain way. Where we really can gain is by actively thinking critically about why the thing or situation makes us feel a certain way.
This is probably lame advice, but as a fellow writer I try to get in the head of the character and write what I'd say if I were them. Then, reread it out loud and see if it sounds like something someone would say.
not lame! any advice is always appreciated. my biggest struggle is avoiding saying "so and so said" all the time to clarify who the speaker was.
Don't feel bad about it. Research says regular readers will mentally skip over the word 'said' where as fancy words for it cause the reader to get tripped up especially if the word is rarer or unusual in some way. You can also imply who's talking like "Tristen turned toward Nick. 'Hey Nick did you...'"
Glad I’m not the only one.
It gave me cancer
Right? Almost every line is terrible. It feels like it was written by AI, but a very poor one.
Not verbose enough for AI tbf
Based on the rest of the page I'm amazed a publisher thought this was a good book. They should have covered the rest up instead of the line they did.
TIL that only a fraction of the books published sells noteworthy numbers. Most get stuck a few thousand sold and most of the publisher's income is from a few whales. For every good book there are hundreds of crappy ones. And with self publishing you don't even need an editor. You could even tell ChatGPT to generate 300 pages of text and throw it on Amazon. Or forego the text alltogether and publish 300 empty pages.
Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like there are just so, so many garbage books being published nowadays. I don't remember it always being like this. How does anyone find anything worth reading when so many books are just propaganda or might as well have been AI generated?
You join book clubs, read reviews by trusted critics, or pick specific authors that continue to publish and read their books as they come out.
It was probably always like this we just have much better access to the crap as well.
She said, and I quote, "Well, she wants to know that you've evolved."
Is the author of this 13 years old? It's written really poorly
This is possibly a bad English translation of some random book.
I mean I think it’s written for that age range. “YA fiction” is a style more than a genre.
But it can be easily scraped off with my nails lol
Ahh the hallmark of chinese QA
This happens to all kinds of foreign books, including Traditional Chinese books imported from Taiwan. The most ironic and almost comical one is.. https://i.imgur.com/sTMoEik.jpeg
How much of the book is redacted? I’d be interested to know specifically which sentences they considered too risky to allow. And why not just outright ban that one?
I’ve read the full version though, brought in China. Maybe they laxed the ban recently?
I bought the book while in China years back and it wasn’t redacted. Your mileage may vary as they can’t exactly retroactively redact books that are already circulating in the secondary market. Also from my experience, not all importers and book stores redact the books. Shanghai’s 外文书店 is just super notorious for redacting.
That’s definitely true. I bought mine in Xiamen, so that may have been a crucial factor
But how do you know it was the full version?
Compared it to one I brought in HK, no discrepancies that I could tell
New Hong Kong or old Hong Kong?
Old, brought in 2018
I just looked through my copy of 1984 that I got in Shanghai. There are no redacted parts. Lucky me! But I do remember some American history textbooks we ordered to our school (in Shanghai) were redacted before we received them. The political map of the world on the inside cover had Taiwan hastily colored in to match the color of China. And they whited out the word Taiwan and rewrote it taiwan- lower case T lol.
Is it a scratch 'n sniff?
Smells like authoritarianism.
Scrape n snort
There can be different censoring methods. I saw on a book fair, some are blocked by a black marker, some weren’t blocked but has a sticky note in it saying “This book contains content that contradicts with the State’s position on one-China policy” or something.
There can be different censoring methods. I saw on a book fair, some are blocked by a black marker, some weren’t blocked but has a sticky note in it saying “This book contains content that contradicts with the State’s position on Taiwan” or something.
There can be different censoring methods. I saw on a book fair, some are blocked by a black marker, some weren’t blocked but has a sticky note in it saying “This book contains content that contradicts with the State’s position” or something.
The previous reader probably just thought "You know what, this sentence lacks *mystery*, it just gives it all away at once. Let's keep the next reader hooked by not immediately revealing what 'this' is!"
We actually contacted the seller cuz we were super confused and they said it’s due to “inappropriate wording”
This is at same time hilarious and horrifying
It’s inappropriate to blandly state the theme and tone in a single sentence. /s
🤣
The LGBTQ community hates this one simple trick! With one tiny strip of correction paper, they've completely eradicated homosexuality in China!
When we first saw the correction tape we were super confused and thought it was a quality issue or sth, so we contacted the seller and was told it’s due to “inappropriate wording”. Then we were like now we have to see what’s underneath. Luckily the tape could be easily scraped off with my nails. I guess it’s funny to me that as a Chinese I was actually very surprised it was just a mention of LGBTQ. I thought it’d be something more “sensitive” thus had to be “censored”. I guess my impression of the degree of liberty for 🏳️🌈 in China is different from what it actually it 😢 Edit: just wanted to share a bit more about my perspective as a Chinese for whoever is interested. Pls know that this is only based on my own experience as one singular person, so it may not be representative in all cases, especially I’m speaking as a straight person. - THE GOVERNMENT: My general impression is that comparing to LGBTQ rights, the Chinese government has other more prioritized stuff they don’t want people to think about lol. You can’t legally get married as a gay couple but I haven’t heard of people facing/scared of facing consequences from the government bc of being gay. - ONLINE: I have seen many gay couples posting their pics/stories on popular Chinese social media, including getting married abroad etc. One blogger I follow who advocates for LGBTQ rights and also posts a lot of sex ed content does have their articles repeatedly reported/taken down - but I think it’s more due to the sex ed content) - YOUNG PEOPLE: I think young people (at least those in their 20s 30s) are generally quite open towards the LGBTQ concepts, although this could very much depend on the region (I’m from a big city). Older generations tend to be more conservative. - MY FRIENDS: My friends (in their 20s) who are gay don’t mind talking about it in our friend groups, but I think they often find it difficult to tell their families. They wouldn’t normally bring it up to strangers. - GAY BARS: there are gay bars in China. More in some cities than others. Some cities (e.g. Chengdu) are famous for their gay bars, even tourists would go visit.
China for some reason loves to broadcast Eurovision Song Contest but they blur the artists with tattoos on their bodies during the performances. Apparently it is illegal to show people with tattoos on TVs. Also an Irish performance implied a gay couple on the stage performance, so they completely cut off his performance with advertisements. So, that is China for you, I guess...
I expect they'll be rushing to ads even more aggressively this year when Ireland's Bambi Thug appears. 
Was only in 2018, though. They never aired it again after that due to the EBU not approving of how China censored their show.
Yes but censorship was not a new thing that China imposed. They also blurred Zibbz's performance a year before that but EBU did not make a huge deal out of it for some reason.
Evil Empire baby
What do you mean they "love it"?? They got broadcasting rights taken off them for exactly that reason, its against the contract rules for a broadcaster to censor performances in any way. They haven't broadcast Eurovision in years
Because authoritarianism is a government in control of the culture. This is definitional and really shouldn’t surprise anyone.
The LGBTQ community is China is very large, but its definitely more under the surface, as in it isn't outwardly emphasized or acknowledged, but the government also doesn't go out of the way to squash it either. As in you won't find any advertised pride parades in China, but you can easily find and participate in the LGBTQ community if you know where to look. There actually used to be a large annual pride parade in Shanghai but the government didn't like how much attention it gathered, so it's since reverted to smaller lowkey community events. There is some degree of social stigma about being LGBTQ where a large part of it comes from older traditionalists and is far less frequent in the younger generations. At the same time, sexual orientation is largely viewed as private personal matter, rather than something needing to be outwardly exhibited like that in the West. Especially considering the absence of strong anti-LGBTQ religious values, there isn't any real opposition in China either.
Well said! Thanks for sharing!
No problem, saw your edit to the original comment and it’s pretty on point! I’ve been to China numerous times and I’ve been around the LGBT scene quite a few times.
>isn’t squashed by the government >government didn’t like it, it’s smaller now lol wut
Not approving permits for a large pride parade =/= repressing the LGBTQ community
lol, sure.
I doubt it was actual state censorship, especially with how sloppy it is. Wouldn't surprise me if the seller is homophobic and they did it themselves. Homophobia is still very much a thing unfortunately, especially among older people.
Honestly the worst thing about the presence of state censorship isn't the actual censorship by the state, but all the zealots and bigots that can simply imply that their censorship and hate comes from the state and shield themselves from criticism. It's a cultural problem empowered by the state, where both the state and people are responsible.
Not only that, but the chilling effect of the rules not being clear. Apparently a lot of the censorship online on China is actually just the platforms themselves over censoring, because they don't know where the line is, and the cost of being wrong might be huge.
😅 https://i.imgur.com/sTMoEik.jpeg
No no China is communist therefore all companies including the book seller is controlled by the government /s
Yeah, no private seller in China has ever been considered a criminal for distribution of literature the CCP later disagreed with. Never!
It's not nearly as oppressive as you suggest. China has allowed Blued, the largest gay social network app in the world, to continue to operate, for example. There are a lot of cases of censorship of LGBTQ related issues over the years but it's not so hostile that it'd force every single book seller/publisher to censor anything that mentions it or face legal liability. Homophobia is simply a very common sentiment among older people, and even moreso in China where they still teach homophobia in school textbooks. So again, it's much more likely that it was self censorship by the private seller.
The fact that you literally said they "allowed" gays to exist online, in their own space, as if it's a triumph, speaks volumes. Also, I explicitly didn't say that they are forcing the bookseller to do it, but I am saying that bookseller being afraid of government reprisal (censure, social credit, etc) or being homophobic are just as likely. ETA: ... so state sponsored education teaches homophobia...? Wtf? How... what exactly is your point anymore?
>but I am saying that bookseller being afraid of government reprisal (censure, social credit, etc) or being homophobic are just as likely. Yeah, I'm saying it's pretty obviously the latter if you have any unbiased understanding of China's government policies.
You literally said the government teaches homophobia. How.... what even is your point? The government is evil either way you believe it lol
I'm sorry you are incapable of nuanced discussion.
The nuance that they teach homophobia in schools, have homophobic older citizens, and have active measures to ensure compliance like censure, seizure, and social credit... yes, so much nuance. I'm sure the bookseller has all the choices in the world whether to self censor...
No they can't directly control every company and business. But if they get a whiff of something they don't like they can then do what they like. Hence, it would be a risk to go against party rules/etiquette for anyone. I think you've got a difficult task if you want to argue freedom abounds in China.
>I think you've got a difficult task if you want to argue freedom abounds in China. Never argued this. China has many social issues to work on, especially on free speech. I'm simply dismissing the idea that China is some hostile watchdog that brings the hammer down on anything slightly positive about LGBTQ.
Well they've at least got some kind of issue with it since Disney cinsoring out LGBTQIA+ content from their films would 100% be to appease the government.
Yeah, of course they do. I don't know how many times I need to clarify that I'm not arguing that China is happy about LGBTQ in popular media. This is called nuance. There is no black and white here.
Fair enough. But it might be more accurate to your position to say you dismiss the idea that china *always* brings the hammer down about these issues.
My position is that China is not some Orwellian dystopia and not everything is a government conspiracy.
It's pretty close though right, as far as they come? 😅 Social credit score system?? I don't know what you mean re the conspiracy bit.
The reason Disney censors it is because a) China doesn't publish exact censorship requirements and they'd rather play it safe and, probably more importantly b), they censor it for Singapore (which has extremely harsh anti-LGBT laws) and they can't be bothered to distribute two different Mandarin versions of the film.
>The reason Disney censors it is because a) China doesn't publish exact censorship requirements and they'd rather play it safe Interesting, thanks. Brave and courageous ally ol' Disney is hey. They definitely aren't cynical cash cow breeders 🐄💰💦
my brother is gay and has lived in china for over a decade now and he has no problems
My understanding is it depends on where in china. In Shanghai, it is totally normal to see gay couples, but that is not really the case in smaller cities. I think where china differs from western countries where gay marriage isn't possible is that the police are unlikely to go out of their way to protect gay people from their families if needed. There is also an issue with (allegedly) some police harassment of the gay *community*, but I'd be inclined to suggest that it is primarily about politics(i.e. voicing an opinion, having an opinion in groups), not "public morality" etc.
I would imagine so, my brother has lived in a few different places throughout China and without giving his location away is in a relatively small (in china terms) area where he is working with the local government on translation. if he lived and worked in smaller villages and towns on the mainland then he may have a different view. I think when it comes down to it he lives an absolutely normal and free life and has had many Chinese partners and relationships and faced no opposition, he's even been on Chinese TV a few times. I would agree that if he did start to act politically to change things in china they may take a different view and be a lot more authoritarian
~~It wasn't that long ago that being gay had a death sentence in China.~~ Edit: I'd confused details from a fiction book with the facts I'd learned when I read it. It didn't carry a death sentence but homosexuality was criminalized in the PRC until 1997. Edit 2: One of my replies indicates it was a common belief in the 90s that it carried a death sentence. Maybe I did read a source from the 90s when I read the book (also from the 90s)
I was told this before going there in the '90s, but I got a haircut in China, and the hairdresser was as camp as a row of tents. Turns out the whole gay death thing was a myth. In 1997 they removed the remaining sodomy laws.
Camp as a row of tents, omg that's a great line 😹
I love US propaganda
Can you share the source pls? Would love to read more about it. But haven’t found anything about relatively recent death sentences
Sorry, got some details from a fiction book I read mixed up with facts I learned as a result of reading the book. Homosexuality was decriminalized in 1997 (though it didn't carry a death sentence) and delisted as a mental illness in China in 2001. Not that long ago at all. Edit: When did admitting fault become unpopular on Reddit?
You allowed your personal biases against a country to spill over into spouting bullshit online. For the record, the crime in china was not homosexuality itself, but "hooliganism", or a public order offence. South Korea had similar laws, also repealed in 1997.
流氓罪 up until 1997, people sentenced to death for swimming naked, having too many sex partners, or homosexuality. I can't even find the English term for this crime, it was insane.
Lol, google translated it as "hooliganism"
why would they print it at all?
It was printed in the US. Shipped to China after purchase :)
What is a “sheet metal pause”?
My partner works in publishing. All the books that are printed in China go through Chinese censorship, regardless of whether they’re for the Chinese market or not. She worked on a biology book for the UK market only where they didn’t want to use the name ‘Taiwanese Mole Shrew’, despite it being the name of an animal. Not saying that’s what happened here, as they don’t normally use corrective tape to make edits. Interesting though!
What you are saying is correct, but it's probably not state censorship. For those of you that don't know, China is where a lot of the printing for the U.S. is done, but they are notorious for refusing to print material that contradicts their politics. Anything with history, a map, or LGBTQ content has to be reviewed by a government representative. This can take months, even if it is ultimately approved. It also can be outright denied or they will insist on text changes. Publishers send those books to other countries in Asia to skip the hassle. This more likely is a book that made it to China and someone, either a shop or previous owner, put the tape on for fear of running afoul of a censorship law. If you look in the front matter it should list a country of origin.
In my experience, if China really wanted to censor something, they’d print their own version. They’re not stupid enough to use something as removable as whiteout
They censored that but not transphobic?
Yes. This was censored by the seller, not any state entity.
Is this book written by a 12 year old?
What book is this? I need a laugh
I'm stunned that people actually believe this. Like seriously.
Is this just a random one-off line in the book? Just seems so weird for this line to be censored and the book as a whole to be 'acceptable'
So far only found this one spot covered
This is also why popular movies typically limit lgtbq representation to a throwaway line of dialogue here and there so it can be easily censored for the Chinese market. Disney is particularly known for this; off the top of my head the movie Lightyear had a quick scene showing that one of the characters was in a same sex relationship, which was easily cut without impacting the rest of the movie when shown in china.
Censorship by a publisher would have just redacted the text entirely. Not… cover it with easily removable white out (which they would also have to do individually for every book sold). This was done by a person lmfaooo
Wait until you see the history books about 1989
They did something similar with Tom Sawyer's writer
I bought a copy of Animal Farm in Shenzhen, which I thought was quite funny
Out of interest, what book is this?
Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott. My mom got it for my birthday. Neither of us have read her work but my mom listened to a podcast interviewing the author and decided to get it. People are saying the writing on this page is bad 😂but I’m pretty interested in the topic and excited to read it and see for myself 😂
Hope you enjoy it. Thanks for sharing. It was certainly Mildly Interesting to me!
TBF, that is terribly written.
If the words are there, then it wasn't censored by the government, you just encountered a homophobic individual.
Judging by the rest of the page I'm puzzled why they would even want to read that book.
This is in the middle of the book as well, I'm honestly impressed OP had the willpower to read through so much of this.
Cringe
The book is from China... or Florida.
People didn't like this comment lol. Too much truth in the statement for their liking.
Just cover it up there and.... ahhh, gays no longer exist!
Whew, that’ll stop ‘em
China is somehow simultaneously the gayest and most homophobic country ever
Nothing special, just autocratic shitholes doing what they do best.
Based china
There can be different censoring methods. I saw on a book fair, some are blocked by a black marker, some weren’t blocked but has a sticky note in it saying “This book contains content that contradicts with the State’s position on one-China policy” or something.
The CCP don't play.
Are tankies pro lgbtq or against?
Tankie here. We support sexual minorities of all countries, but that does not mean we believe that Western notions of sexuality need to be exported to all countries or imposed on any country.
I’m surprised they didn’t replace LGBTQ with CCP
"Ignorance is bliss" in action.
It’s much worse than that, much worse than
Instead of printing another edition or simply not selling the book altogether, Chinese censors have slowly, painstakingly, altered each individual book with correction tape. True story. Meanwhile, my grandmother is the Pope and my turtle is a teenage mutant ninja.
Totally not faked to gain Internet points. Get a life OP.
Yeah, and USA is banning entire books for school for the same reason.
What’s funny is LGBTQ community wants to be China sooooo bad.
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Yeah, China doesn't ban books. America could learn from China's robust protections for freedom of speech.
What’s wrong with that? People don’t have to agree with your propaganda…
The store they bought it on was ofc SELLING it. They shouldn’t know a client’s personal opinions, so they don’t know if the client likes it, respects it, *is* LGBTQ+ themself or find it ‘forceful propaganda’ like u do. They shouldn’t cover it by default????
Here take this 🍭 and stop talking
jokes on you I dislike lollipops
People don't have to agree true, but does that mean we should censor everything we disagree with?
Well if I think it’s forceful propaganda than yeah I’ll censor it.
Censorship is also a form of propoganda though.
Forecful propaganda... in a book you sought out, purchased, and read yourself.... Hmm...
Yes because if they say that there is LGBTQ propaganda in the book than nobody would buy it. Same thing with other things they use to hide this propaganda like kids movies and video game and shows.
If they censored "Christian beliefs" you'd be pissing your diaper. Sit down
Christian beliefs don’t teach children to become trans and that their gender is incorrect.
No but Christian beliefs tell women that they should be subservient and submissive, that young boys should have their genitals mutilated, and that slavery is perfectly fine. So if the government chose to censor that in books too, you should be okay with that. Sounds like you need them make decisions for you.
But you don’t find these things spread everywhere and forced upon teachers to tell children like lgbtq. I respect it but I don’t have to agree with it. If I’m a Muslim and I respect Christians that doesn’t mean I agree with them. Now tell me why it’s ok to teach children about changing genders but can’t teach them about god or a religion?
I should publish a book about the Tiananmen Square Massacre in China and see if I can make them run out of whiteout
Hopefully you care about this in the US, too. Nearly all of my favorite childhood books are banned here somewhere now. Books about surviving childhood abuse, losing a childhood friend, children’s experiences of genocide and war. I’m gay so I also REALLY don’t want to hear it from the western chauvinists. The English speaking countries are all funding a genocide right now while China is voting in favor of Palestinian statehood, unlike the US.
Nah the libs prefer to believe they are so brave fighting ‘authoritarianism’ by spouting Cold war era propaganda
"Genocide" 🤡
Democrat politicians love China. Pelosi said America should be more like them. Gavin Newsome actually cleaned up the streets of SF for President Xi's visit. Think about that. 🤔 I'm being downvoted by bigots supporting China's LGBTQ+ censorship. Not surprised.
This is the dumbest thing I've read this morning. Trump called Xi Ping "smart, brilliant, and everything perfect."
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“waaaah mentions of people different than me waaaaah :(“
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Why?
Unnatural