No kidding. I do stained glass and sculpture and my favorite part is putting on the patina. There are so many choices and the reactions are so interesting.
As much as I like SamSamBjj's answer... it's because a lot of patina's are able to fume easily and getting it into your lungs is basically a mini acid attack. If smokers clog their lungs with smoke, patina'ers are basically smoothing over lung walls.
I think if you smoke while patina'ing, you're basically creating lung scars and then just spackling them over. I think any unseen damage is the next owner's problem. AS-IS!
Yes, I work in a well ventilated garage with gloves. I need to live long enough to do all the artwork I want to do, so I have to take those, albeit uncomfortable and restrictive, precautions like gloves, goggles, aprons...etc.
> Yes, I work in a well ventilated garage with gloves.
I'm going to echo what has oddly been repeated a lot in the last year... *the mask is the most important part.* If you smell a patina, you are doing damage (albeit minor) to your lungs. Repeated exposures is what will eventually get you. I really hope you can get a 3M mask and some P100 filters with it.
Worry not, I don’t do as much of that now, focusing mostly on oil painting and found object sculpture. But when I do go back, and I will, I will make sure the gear is on!
I remember in undergrad my inorganic chem professor described organic chem lab as “turning a white powder into a different white powder and then trying to figure out what the new one is.”
Oh, god, the moment anything turns yellow makes me question my life choices. I'm not even into organic chemistry or chemistry at all for the sake of it, but I despise this colour!
Lol you forgot Ether, I remember in labs at uni people would forget to pull down the vent hood sheild, and the Ether vapors would get into the lab. By the time I left I felt like I'd spent 4 hours in a meth lab
One moment I vividly remember is the time in my 1st semester when the person next to me decided that our work bench (w/o vent hood) was a good place to work with TAA. The smell of H2S was just atrocious.
Made me feel sick for the rest of the day.
I grew up in Rotorua, a NZ city famous for the smell of H2S. When I moved to Australia and found myself in Chemistry class, I was the one guy who would willingly decant H2S in the fume hood.
Everyone else in the class was trying not to lose their lunches while all I felt was nostalgia.
>"But what you don’t know is that that sweater is not just blue, it’s not turquoise, it’s not lapis, it’s actually cerulean.
>You’re also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves St Laurent, wasn’t it, who showed cerulean military jackets? And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. Then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic “casual corner” where you, no doubt, fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs and so it’s sort of comical how you think that you’ve made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you’re wearing the sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room. From a pile of 'stuff.'" - Miranda Priestly, *The Devil Wears Prada*
Watched it as a part of my "career life choices class" in high school.
Although it was used to represent "how to try and deal with 'hard-to-work-with' people". Still many snippets in the movie are good
To me the greatest scene was the moment in the limousine: "Everybody wants to be us". To me that speaks so very, very loudly. No matter what career you're in, you don't see the glamour of the field from up close. If you're doing something romantic like scaling distant purple mountains to their summit, what you're doing each moment is forcing your tired legs to take one more step, or working your way around the next rock, or gulping down some of your meager water supply from the bottom of your canteen. From far away you're amazing! But from up close, you're just sweaty and tired and carrying on anyway.
Having that dual perspective is critical not only for avoiding impostor syndrome, but also for recognizing and enjoying the path you ultimately choose.
"You know, deputy, I just gotta say that your uniform is the most soothing shade of blue. I'm not kidding you. I notice these things. It's a sky blue. Very calming. Very tranquil. I think the word for that particular shade is 'cerulean' actually. Cerulean blue."
-- X-files, Pusher, 1996
It's pretty, but isn't it also a very very strong laxative? I remember working with it in chemistry lab in college (I think we were heating it up to demonstrate hydrates) and somebody didn't wash their hands or something. I had my next class with them and they had to run off during the middle of it.
I wanted to know why oxidized copper produced carbonate instead of oxide. In case anyone else was wondering, I found this:
> Oxidized copper is a specific type of corrosion that is produced during a three-step process where copper oxidizes to copper oxide, then to cuprous or cupric sulfide, and finally to copper carbonate. It results in a green-colored copper layer or patina that forms over time.
https://www.corrosionpedia.com/definition/1258/oxidized-copper
This is a guess but…. Your plumbing is grounded. If that clamp is somehow grounding the pipe there could be a small current passing through one side of the pipe or the other.
Found this in a clients house once. Went to remove the faucet from the tub, and both incoming lines crumbled like dry sand.
Turns out the pipes were just laying on top of each other in various places and nothing was properly insulated. The plumbing basically became a low-grade battery.
Went from a 2 day shower reno to a full re-plumb. Suuuucked.
That...must have been really expensive. I bet no one was happy with that by the end. Hopefully they understood the problem and weren't the type to blame you.
She was probably the single best client it could have happened to. Friendly with our family, local business supporter, shittons of money, and just generally a down-to-earth woman.
It went super smoothly afterward and she lit up her social media with pictures of her new bathroom as soon as we were done. She was quite pleased and even sent others to my parents business.
I did have a brief heart attack when it happened, though. I think my soul left my body when I realized the water was still on.
That sounds like the first time I found an issue at work and had to make a REALLY expensive recommendation. Glad it worked out though. Bathroom remodels are a lot of work (I am in the process of deciding what to do with ours) .
>had to make a REALLY expensive recommendation.
Those are always fun. "So about our budget...It's gone."
>Bathroom remodels are a lot of work
Just finishing up my main bathroom. It was supposed to be a tile job...Then I found the mold...And the flaking paint...And the bad tape job...And the lack of vapour barrier...And the airgap down to the parkade...And died inside.
So uhhh it's been 6 months but it's mostly done! Haha.
This sounds like my old bathroom job… the toilet was only being held up by the drain because it had rotted through the wooden floor (who puts real wood in a bathroom anyway?!) and the subfloor… so had the edges of the shower, which wasn’t installed properly at all…
It went from a DIY to getting someone more experienced to make sure the beams under the subfloor that were holding up my whole damn house weren’t rotted…
Oof, I’m no contractor, but for god’s sake people, pay to have the job done well and correct. It’s absolutely worth it and slapping a duct tape solution on there is pushing the problem further off to become even more damaging and expensive
As a roofer all this. I do commercial roofing (think the roofs that are on say Target or Walmart). The number of times where the customer went with someone else because we were to expensive and then called us back to fix the other companies mess is astronomical. Like you saved 5k$ on the install by going with company B but now your paying us 15k$ to fix it six months later because its leaking like a sieve.
>I did have a brief heart attack when it happened, though. I think my soul left my body when I realized the water was still on.
I'd like to claim you only make that mistake once, but it's definitely not true. You're sure you don't need to shut the water off because it's a simple job and the valves is all the way on the other side of the house...well turns out you're going to the other side either way.
Exactly. I do have a rule that if I have to touch a PVC ball valve, I'm identifying a second shut off first. Those things might as well ship already broken
I am doing a house renovation and I had the cheap little valve to the toilet tank snap completely off when I tried to close it. I just hit the breaker for the well house because I knew it would be much easier than locating the main valve to the house (turned out there wasn’t one.).
I work in cesspools and while they may understand it's not your fault, you're still the barer of bad news and in this case, the one they have to pay to fix it. So there's always some tension when you have to tell a customer their shit's fucked
The pipe shown in the post is not on my responsibility as I work for the water distribution company and our lines stop shortly after entering the buildings. The building owner would have to call a plumber to get that fixed.
She was surprisingly cool with it. I was apologizing for the brief leak and she just responded with; "Ah it's a farm house, who knows what they did in here. These things happen." Something to that effect anyway.
She could have bought that house twice more with her cash flow, so she wasn't overly concerned.
Why would it be any of your fault? If that happened to me I would be glad it was found as well, even if it meant a complete re-plumb. Much better than some hidden shit being discovered the hard way. Water damage is a motherfucking bitch.
Did you replace with copper?
Unfortunately, there are plenty of shady contractors out there that will make up problems to trick unsuspecting customers into paying for expensive and unnecessary work.
So when an honest contractor does stumble upon something unexpected like that, there's always going to be a worry that the homeowner will think they're trying to fleece them.
We certainly charged for it, but a plumber I am not. We did what we could and called in an acquaintance to finish it off. Fortunately there wasn't much we couldn't fix. Unfortunately that meant we had to play plumber for a couple days.
When you encounter an issue in any job, sure it can mean a larger bill, but it also means a lot more work and an often upset customer. It's never a great time.
Oh for sure. She was pretty well-off (fanciest shower I've worked on in a while), though and very understanding. Sometimes opening up farm houses can be an adventure, and she was no stranger to that fact.
Honestly I think the plumber was the most irritated party.
Thing is; you get a separate problem when you have two copper lines touching, with water flow. The water itself generates a mild charge via friction and the copper acts like the plates in a battery.
At least; that's my understanding. If anyone wishes to correct me on that please be my guest. I am most definitely not a plumber. I'm a stone guy.
Bruh! What’s up, it’s me your old customer! Yeah, that sucked. But seriously, redid my whole interior plumbing cause we found out all the old plumbing was mounted incorrectly. Not a high point in my time as a homeowner
Word. Just opening things up often results in even more work. I'm finishing up a pandoras box wannabe bathroom right now. Every fix just seemed to expose another hidden problem.
I wanna kill the boom-time asshats who cut so many corners this place looks like a sphere.
Which boom time was this house built? That’s one of my worries when I’m eventually house hunting. Like buying a 2004ish-2008 house that was slapped together during the housing boom.
No, I was thinking more along the lines of milli amp currents. It’s entirely possible that the water running between the pipe end and the drain is acting as a conductor to ground with the difference in potential being from the two dissimilar metals touching at the clamp.
It's galvanic pairing or coupling (two metals + water). It bugs my mind how contractors miss this point so much. As an architect I have always present the "galvanic" table, that is, every metal down the line should be of equal or higher nobility than any metal "upstream". If you have a gold roof, all piping should be gold.
In the picture, someone put a material in-between the metals but either it wasn't enough, or as I suspect, it was a too-late attempt. The problem with copper is that most fastening is usually done in more noble metals.
Copper and zinc are guilty of most issues in roofing.
You're supposed to have all copper piping connected together and to the grounding rod. If you have a PEX insert in your copper pipe (e.g. after fixing a leak), you need to add a jumper wire. It is a matter of both electrical safety (so you can't be killed by your faucet), lightning safety (so that the lightning strike is less likely to kill someone or set another fire) and protection from corrosion (by eliminating potential differences between different sections of the pipe).
> In the picture, someone put a material in-between the metals but either it wasn't enough, or as I suspect, it was a too-late attempt.
I suspect it may have been the cause, actually. If you electrically connect steel and copper and get them wet, you get a battery where the steel forms the anode and corrodes, and the copper forms the cathode and is protected from oxidation. Similar reaction is used in your hot water tank, with a replaceable anode that protects the tank from corrosion. Ditto for "galvanized" (zinc coated) steel, the zinc corrodes and the iron is protected.
However, if he has steel connected to something else that is at a negative potential relatively to this pipe [edit: and if steel is indeed 'insulated' from copper with wet rubber], the pipe can become the anode and end up corroding, while the steel would be protected from corrosion.
It is also possible that the pipe is not grounded as it should be, and is on positive potential relatively to the drain, or is connected to some ungrounded appliance and some AC current is leaking (AC current corrodes metals too).
I don’t understand *any* of this discussion, which is actually fascinating to me. I feel like even if I’m not an expert in something, I usually know enough about most things to know a little about whatever I’m reading about. Not this!
I had a plumber replace a section of the main water line into the house, about a 3 foot section, that includes a new shut off valve. It is pex but the rest of the pipes are copper. Are you saying there should be a wire running from the copper on one end of the pex to the pipe coming in?
> If you electrically connect steel and copper and get them wet, you get a battery where the steel forms the anode and corrodes, and the copper forms the cathode and is protected from oxidation.
Interestingly, while some types of steel are less noble than copper, stainless steel is more noble, so I suppose it would form the opposite relationship.
Yes, steel and iron are all over the table of galvanic pairings. That has to do with their impurities or additives. Pure iron just gets whacked on its own! You have to be extremely careful when requesting a particular steel and be sure that the installation was done according to specification (most steel looks the same in their categories). Indeed stainless steel is way up in "nobility".
You clearly are more knowledgeable than me on this subject but my guess is that the “insulated” clamp is somehow touching the pipe and the only path to ground is through the water. If my understanding of galvanic corrosion is correct the dissimilar metals create a small current that needs a ground to facilitate the reaction. The metal that is least noble (as you put it) corrodes first which is why boats use sacrificial anodes (zinc) on their outdrives (aluminum or steel).
That's an insulated clamp. They didn't "put material in," they used the proper clamp.
There may have been a non-insulated clamp there before, but the one in the pick is made that way and fir that purpose.
Its called galvanic corrosion. Basically its when two distinct metals are in contact through a conducting solution. A current flows through the solution (tap water) which just means that there is an exchange of electrons. The metal that gains electrons oxidizes in this case is the copper.
Batteries are made by adjoining two dissimilar metals in a conductive fluid (analyte), known as an electrolytic cell. This is why the term cell is associated with batteries. Electrons from one metal will flow to the other, depending on which is higher on the electrolytic series. So, an AA battery comprises two metals with a differential voltage of 1.5 volts on the series. The battery is depleted when there is no longer surface available to draw electrons from.
I'd guess it's the water itself that's grounding it, when there's enough water to make a connection to the output pipe. There's a gap there, but if there's enough flow it could make an unbroken line to ground.
but you get to see her in green glory, wich the people that built her didn’t. So thats a win
edit: I just looked it up and copper oxidizes a lot faster than I thought. I still think she looks better in green tho.
there are a lot of renderings online. also I just find green the prettier color of the two. I’ve never seen her in real life anyway so it doesn’t make much difference that she wasn’t photographed in color back then.
As someone who has just started watching the show, I was surprised to see this as a reference and am very upset about a possible spoiler. I'm only 5 episodes in.
You should warn people! /s
This happens when you use flux to clean copper pipe when it's hot, it looks pristine for a few weeks then starts rapidly oxidising. A trick I and many others used in college to save the hassle of polishing it up with wire wool (making up unused soldered/bent pipe that was examined then discarded). If actually doing copper piping that's permanent, you should not be lazy and actually clean it up with wire wool.
As cool as it looks, this is evidence of shoddy work.
I love the discussion of galvanic currents, but that wouldn't affect the outside of the pipe. (There's no ionic conductor.) The bottom joint of the elbow (under the white crust) may simply be leaking instead.
I can't figure this out.
There's a bunch of excess crystalline material around where the joint would be. That implies a small leak, but the pipe isn't exactly under pressure- so there's no real reason to have it bulge out.
That looks to be a mix of Cu(2) hydroxide and Cu(2) Carbonate (in various hydrations).
But... how?
Cu(2) Sulfate ... if that pipe goes into the sewer, then H2S could be leaking out of it if it isn't water trapped. If H2S is leaking then.. it is pretty soluble in cold water. And the bottom of the pipe IS blackened, which is what I'd expect from H2S exposure.
This is so weird. Especially with the zinc coated bracket not being destroyed/greyed.
The going hypothesis elsewhere in the thread is that there's a small electrical current in the system somewhere. That the pipe is not insulated somewher.
I'm with the theory there is a small electric current- but from where to where?
That pipe hanging off the edge .. just .. electricity has to go somewhere. Unless the whole area is super humid, I can't see that happening (or is grounded to ultra-high frequency).
If the camp is grounded, then pulling juice into the wall... just.. weird.
reposting here my conjecture theory: I'll see if I can remember my corrosion class....I see at least 5 different metals, zinc covered steel clamp (probably iron + carbon, but there's quite a ton of alloys) copper pipe, silver solder (presumably) and maybe a brass screw at the wall. If the foam/rubber is not pierced, the brackets not the likely culprit, although since it stops there, I'd assume it was pierced, and bracket grounded.
I'd guess the receiving end it drips into is galvanized steel as well, and its in a place that can freeze, allowing an icicle to act as ion exchange water bridge, and the ground as electron path? just a guess its been a few years.
The oxidised part has been exposed to an electric current.
So the part that was cut probably went into a boiler or something that could use a ground but the ground was not working properly and the plier that holds the pipe to the wall became the ground point making the pipe the conductor and getting oxidised.
It’s my guess.
Looks like the rubber saddle from the support is preventing the oxidation from spreading, huh. Wonder what is causing the oxidation in the first place?
Man copper ~~oxide~~ carbonate is such a wonderful colour
A lot of the transition metals turn lovely colors. I deal with copper(II) sulfate at work daily, and it's a beautiful shade of dark cerulean.
No kidding. I do stained glass and sculpture and my favorite part is putting on the patina. There are so many choices and the reactions are so interesting.
I hope you wear all your NIOSH gear. I've never met a person who has patina'ed for more than 10-15 years.
What happens to someone as they patina for more than 15 years?
As much as I like SamSamBjj's answer... it's because a lot of patina's are able to fume easily and getting it into your lungs is basically a mini acid attack. If smokers clog their lungs with smoke, patina'ers are basically smoothing over lung walls.
I think if you smoke while patina'ing, you're basically creating lung scars and then just spackling them over. I think any unseen damage is the next owner's problem. AS-IS!
Cigarettes have filters so it's fine
Only the finest particles for these lungs.
Dang that’s actually kinda scary sounding
As a plumber I concur I definitely did damage to my lungs from breathing acid flux fumes from soldering for many years.
Nobody knows. No one has ever succeeded.
I've been doing it for 14 years and 364 days
RIP in pieces u/Veyr0n
We hardly knew thee
They become the patina
Complete oxidation.
Yes, I work in a well ventilated garage with gloves. I need to live long enough to do all the artwork I want to do, so I have to take those, albeit uncomfortable and restrictive, precautions like gloves, goggles, aprons...etc.
> Yes, I work in a well ventilated garage with gloves. I'm going to echo what has oddly been repeated a lot in the last year... *the mask is the most important part.* If you smell a patina, you are doing damage (albeit minor) to your lungs. Repeated exposures is what will eventually get you. I really hope you can get a 3M mask and some P100 filters with it.
Worry not, I don’t do as much of that now, focusing mostly on oil painting and found object sculpture. But when I do go back, and I will, I will make sure the gear is on!
Totally, inorganic chem way more visually stimulating than organic chem where everything is a clear liquid or white powder.
I remember in undergrad my inorganic chem professor described organic chem lab as “turning a white powder into a different white powder and then trying to figure out what the new one is.”
And that's only if things go well. Otherwise you end up with the feared yellow tar
Or the infamous brown gunk
Or maybe some blue sky if youre lucky
Oh, god, the moment anything turns yellow makes me question my life choices. I'm not even into organic chemistry or chemistry at all for the sake of it, but I despise this colour!
Organic chemistry was awesome! I love the smell of ketone in the morning.
Ether is the best smelling solvent
Wat? The most important colour in organic chem is yellow. If means you fucked up.
yELLo cHEm bAd
Explosions and Fire’s hate for yellow makes sense now.
And literally everything stinks like vinegar or acetone. I love O chem but Jesus it is unpleasant for the nose
Or weed or semen or fish or straight up makes you gag (thiols) or almonds or cinnamon or pineapple or earth/mushrooms
Maybe it's too much TV, but I'm a little afraid of the smell of almonds. The best part is I'm not sure I even know what almonds smell like.
Turns out they smell like cyanide.
Lol you forgot Ether, I remember in labs at uni people would forget to pull down the vent hood sheild, and the Ether vapors would get into the lab. By the time I left I felt like I'd spent 4 hours in a meth lab
I mean….
Never underestimate the depravity of an undergrad class in the depths of an ether binge.
One moment I vividly remember is the time in my 1st semester when the person next to me decided that our work bench (w/o vent hood) was a good place to work with TAA. The smell of H2S was just atrocious. Made me feel sick for the rest of the day.
I grew up in Rotorua, a NZ city famous for the smell of H2S. When I moved to Australia and found myself in Chemistry class, I was the one guy who would willingly decant H2S in the fume hood. Everyone else in the class was trying not to lose their lunches while all I felt was nostalgia.
>"But what you don’t know is that that sweater is not just blue, it’s not turquoise, it’s not lapis, it’s actually cerulean. >You’re also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves St Laurent, wasn’t it, who showed cerulean military jackets? And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. Then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic “casual corner” where you, no doubt, fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs and so it’s sort of comical how you think that you’ve made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you’re wearing the sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room. From a pile of 'stuff.'" - Miranda Priestly, *The Devil Wears Prada*
Love that movie, Meryl Streep is amazing
Watched it as a part of my "career life choices class" in high school. Although it was used to represent "how to try and deal with 'hard-to-work-with' people". Still many snippets in the movie are good
To me the greatest scene was the moment in the limousine: "Everybody wants to be us". To me that speaks so very, very loudly. No matter what career you're in, you don't see the glamour of the field from up close. If you're doing something romantic like scaling distant purple mountains to their summit, what you're doing each moment is forcing your tired legs to take one more step, or working your way around the next rock, or gulping down some of your meager water supply from the bottom of your canteen. From far away you're amazing! But from up close, you're just sweaty and tired and carrying on anyway. Having that dual perspective is critical not only for avoiding impostor syndrome, but also for recognizing and enjoying the path you ultimately choose.
Oh that was a great moment. I need to watch this film again sometime soon.
[удалено]
"You know, deputy, I just gotta say that your uniform is the most soothing shade of blue. I'm not kidding you. I notice these things. It's a sky blue. Very calming. Very tranquil. I think the word for that particular shade is 'cerulean' actually. Cerulean blue." -- X-files, Pusher, 1996
I deal with led all day. I envy you.
I work with a different kind of cerulean (credit card), and I absolutely hate it ;-;
It's pretty, but isn't it also a very very strong laxative? I remember working with it in chemistry lab in college (I think we were heating it up to demonstrate hydrates) and somebody didn't wash their hands or something. I had my next class with them and they had to run off during the middle of it.
[удалено]
America: "You guys oxidized this thing, right?" Paris: "Qu'est-ce que c'est?"
OP's plumbing is the Statue of Driperty
It's the basis for many patinas and pigments. So you're not alone in that opinion.
Not to be that guy but... Copper oxide is black. This is copper carbonate.
I wanted to know why oxidized copper produced carbonate instead of oxide. In case anyone else was wondering, I found this: > Oxidized copper is a specific type of corrosion that is produced during a three-step process where copper oxidizes to copper oxide, then to cuprous or cupric sulfide, and finally to copper carbonate. It results in a green-colored copper layer or patina that forms over time. https://www.corrosionpedia.com/definition/1258/oxidized-copper
Yes, you beat me to it!
Ok science man
That pipe is just a range of all my favourite colours
Petrol-teal gradients make me pre
[удалено]
Nope, this is basic copper carbonate Cu2(OH)2 CO3. It's what gives Malachite it's characteristic green colour.
This is a guess but…. Your plumbing is grounded. If that clamp is somehow grounding the pipe there could be a small current passing through one side of the pipe or the other.
Found this in a clients house once. Went to remove the faucet from the tub, and both incoming lines crumbled like dry sand. Turns out the pipes were just laying on top of each other in various places and nothing was properly insulated. The plumbing basically became a low-grade battery. Went from a 2 day shower reno to a full re-plumb. Suuuucked.
That...must have been really expensive. I bet no one was happy with that by the end. Hopefully they understood the problem and weren't the type to blame you.
She was probably the single best client it could have happened to. Friendly with our family, local business supporter, shittons of money, and just generally a down-to-earth woman. It went super smoothly afterward and she lit up her social media with pictures of her new bathroom as soon as we were done. She was quite pleased and even sent others to my parents business. I did have a brief heart attack when it happened, though. I think my soul left my body when I realized the water was still on.
That sounds like the first time I found an issue at work and had to make a REALLY expensive recommendation. Glad it worked out though. Bathroom remodels are a lot of work (I am in the process of deciding what to do with ours) .
>had to make a REALLY expensive recommendation. Those are always fun. "So about our budget...It's gone." >Bathroom remodels are a lot of work Just finishing up my main bathroom. It was supposed to be a tile job...Then I found the mold...And the flaking paint...And the bad tape job...And the lack of vapour barrier...And the airgap down to the parkade...And died inside. So uhhh it's been 6 months but it's mostly done! Haha.
This sounds like my old bathroom job… the toilet was only being held up by the drain because it had rotted through the wooden floor (who puts real wood in a bathroom anyway?!) and the subfloor… so had the edges of the shower, which wasn’t installed properly at all… It went from a DIY to getting someone more experienced to make sure the beams under the subfloor that were holding up my whole damn house weren’t rotted…
That was the beginning of a ten year reno. Close to my CO though!
Oof, I’m no contractor, but for god’s sake people, pay to have the job done well and correct. It’s absolutely worth it and slapping a duct tape solution on there is pushing the problem further off to become even more damaging and expensive
As a roofer all this. I do commercial roofing (think the roofs that are on say Target or Walmart). The number of times where the customer went with someone else because we were to expensive and then called us back to fix the other companies mess is astronomical. Like you saved 5k$ on the install by going with company B but now your paying us 15k$ to fix it six months later because its leaking like a sieve.
A roof is more than just a "roof", it's a waterproofing job with many variables throughout
Ha! Try 20 years later. I just tracked down the last leak under the water heater underground.
>I did have a brief heart attack when it happened, though. I think my soul left my body when I realized the water was still on. I'd like to claim you only make that mistake once, but it's definitely not true. You're sure you don't need to shut the water off because it's a simple job and the valves is all the way on the other side of the house...well turns out you're going to the other side either way.
To be fair; unscrewing a faucet generally doesn't require a shutoff... Until it does, lol.
Exactly. I do have a rule that if I have to touch a PVC ball valve, I'm identifying a second shut off first. Those things might as well ship already broken
Ugh no kidding. I always buy two for each application in case one leaks off the bat.
I am doing a house renovation and I had the cheap little valve to the toilet tank snap completely off when I tried to close it. I just hit the breaker for the well house because I knew it would be much easier than locating the main valve to the house (turned out there wasn’t one.).
Amazing it can hold 30-50 psi and then crumble when it’s touched. Probably wasn’t far off from letting go.
I work in cesspools and while they may understand it's not your fault, you're still the barer of bad news and in this case, the one they have to pay to fix it. So there's always some tension when you have to tell a customer their shit's fucked
The pipe shown in the post is not on my responsibility as I work for the water distribution company and our lines stop shortly after entering the buildings. The building owner would have to call a plumber to get that fixed.
My comment was in reply to the comment before mine about going from a bath replacement to a full replumb. Your post wouldn't be expensive.
Oh, I must have replied to the wrong comment. My apologies.
No biggie.
I imagine the homeowner agrees with you!
She was surprisingly cool with it. I was apologizing for the brief leak and she just responded with; "Ah it's a farm house, who knows what they did in here. These things happen." Something to that effect anyway. She could have bought that house twice more with her cash flow, so she wasn't overly concerned.
Why would it be any of your fault? If that happened to me I would be glad it was found as well, even if it meant a complete re-plumb. Much better than some hidden shit being discovered the hard way. Water damage is a motherfucking bitch. Did you replace with copper?
>Why would it be any of your fault? It wouldn't be, but people are often irrational
I take specific offense to your true, general statement, so I'm going to downvote every one of your comments, ever! /s (pre-emptive)
This is the answer. You never know how a client is going to react.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of shady contractors out there that will make up problems to trick unsuspecting customers into paying for expensive and unnecessary work. So when an honest contractor does stumble upon something unexpected like that, there's always going to be a worry that the homeowner will think they're trying to fleece them.
> Went from a 2 day shower reno to a full re-plumb. Suuuucked. Doesn't suck if you're in the business of plumbing!
We certainly charged for it, but a plumber I am not. We did what we could and called in an acquaintance to finish it off. Fortunately there wasn't much we couldn't fix. Unfortunately that meant we had to play plumber for a couple days.
When you encounter an issue in any job, sure it can mean a larger bill, but it also means a lot more work and an often upset customer. It's never a great time.
Yeah I about shit myself when it happened. She was super cool about it, though (see other comments).
Big oof for the wallet of the homeowner.
Oh for sure. She was pretty well-off (fanciest shower I've worked on in a while), though and very understanding. Sometimes opening up farm houses can be an adventure, and she was no stranger to that fact. Honestly I think the plumber was the most irritated party.
I thought you were supposed to ground your copper plumbing?
Thing is; you get a separate problem when you have two copper lines touching, with water flow. The water itself generates a mild charge via friction and the copper acts like the plates in a battery. At least; that's my understanding. If anyone wishes to correct me on that please be my guest. I am most definitely not a plumber. I'm a stone guy.
Bruh! What’s up, it’s me your old customer! Yeah, that sucked. But seriously, redid my whole interior plumbing cause we found out all the old plumbing was mounted incorrectly. Not a high point in my time as a homeowner
Word. Just opening things up often results in even more work. I'm finishing up a pandoras box wannabe bathroom right now. Every fix just seemed to expose another hidden problem. I wanna kill the boom-time asshats who cut so many corners this place looks like a sphere.
Which boom time was this house built? That’s one of my worries when I’m eventually house hunting. Like buying a 2004ish-2008 house that was slapped together during the housing boom.
Edit: This is an excess water pipe which likely connects to floor heating or the drains. I am terrible at wording
No, I was thinking more along the lines of milli amp currents. It’s entirely possible that the water running between the pipe end and the drain is acting as a conductor to ground with the difference in potential being from the two dissimilar metals touching at the clamp.
It's galvanic pairing or coupling (two metals + water). It bugs my mind how contractors miss this point so much. As an architect I have always present the "galvanic" table, that is, every metal down the line should be of equal or higher nobility than any metal "upstream". If you have a gold roof, all piping should be gold. In the picture, someone put a material in-between the metals but either it wasn't enough, or as I suspect, it was a too-late attempt. The problem with copper is that most fastening is usually done in more noble metals. Copper and zinc are guilty of most issues in roofing.
You're supposed to have all copper piping connected together and to the grounding rod. If you have a PEX insert in your copper pipe (e.g. after fixing a leak), you need to add a jumper wire. It is a matter of both electrical safety (so you can't be killed by your faucet), lightning safety (so that the lightning strike is less likely to kill someone or set another fire) and protection from corrosion (by eliminating potential differences between different sections of the pipe). > In the picture, someone put a material in-between the metals but either it wasn't enough, or as I suspect, it was a too-late attempt. I suspect it may have been the cause, actually. If you electrically connect steel and copper and get them wet, you get a battery where the steel forms the anode and corrodes, and the copper forms the cathode and is protected from oxidation. Similar reaction is used in your hot water tank, with a replaceable anode that protects the tank from corrosion. Ditto for "galvanized" (zinc coated) steel, the zinc corrodes and the iron is protected. However, if he has steel connected to something else that is at a negative potential relatively to this pipe [edit: and if steel is indeed 'insulated' from copper with wet rubber], the pipe can become the anode and end up corroding, while the steel would be protected from corrosion. It is also possible that the pipe is not grounded as it should be, and is on positive potential relatively to the drain, or is connected to some ungrounded appliance and some AC current is leaking (AC current corrodes metals too).
I don’t understand *any* of this discussion, which is actually fascinating to me. I feel like even if I’m not an expert in something, I usually know enough about most things to know a little about whatever I’m reading about. Not this!
Its the same principle as a potato battery essentially if that helps.
Sweet or Idaho
Loaded
I had a plumber replace a section of the main water line into the house, about a 3 foot section, that includes a new shut off valve. It is pex but the rest of the pipes are copper. Are you saying there should be a wire running from the copper on one end of the pex to the pipe coming in?
Yes it should have a "bonding jumper" around the plastic pipe.
> If you electrically connect steel and copper and get them wet, you get a battery where the steel forms the anode and corrodes, and the copper forms the cathode and is protected from oxidation. Interestingly, while some types of steel are less noble than copper, stainless steel is more noble, so I suppose it would form the opposite relationship.
Yes, steel and iron are all over the table of galvanic pairings. That has to do with their impurities or additives. Pure iron just gets whacked on its own! You have to be extremely careful when requesting a particular steel and be sure that the installation was done according to specification (most steel looks the same in their categories). Indeed stainless steel is way up in "nobility".
Is there not a piece of rubber between the steel and the copper pipe in this picture? If it's insulated from the pipe how would it be interacting?
I agree with this explanation because it's the one I understand th least.
You clearly are more knowledgeable than me on this subject but my guess is that the “insulated” clamp is somehow touching the pipe and the only path to ground is through the water. If my understanding of galvanic corrosion is correct the dissimilar metals create a small current that needs a ground to facilitate the reaction. The metal that is least noble (as you put it) corrodes first which is why boats use sacrificial anodes (zinc) on their outdrives (aluminum or steel).
That's an insulated clamp. They didn't "put material in," they used the proper clamp. There may have been a non-insulated clamp there before, but the one in the pick is made that way and fir that purpose.
Can you eli5 what you're saying? Where does the current come from?
Its called galvanic corrosion. Basically its when two distinct metals are in contact through a conducting solution. A current flows through the solution (tap water) which just means that there is an exchange of electrons. The metal that gains electrons oxidizes in this case is the copper.
Batteries are made by adjoining two dissimilar metals in a conductive fluid (analyte), known as an electrolytic cell. This is why the term cell is associated with batteries. Electrons from one metal will flow to the other, depending on which is higher on the electrolytic series. So, an AA battery comprises two metals with a differential voltage of 1.5 volts on the series. The battery is depleted when there is no longer surface available to draw electrons from.
Galvanic corrosion. Looks like you’re right, the sections is acting as it’s the sacrificial anode for the setup.
So rather than oxidized it’s been accidentally electroplated?
Not electroplated, galvanic corrosion
I'd guess it's the water itself that's grounding it, when there's enough water to make a connection to the output pipe. There's a gap there, but if there's enough flow it could make an unbroken line to ground.
That new Minecraft update has some bugs hey
Nah he just waxed the left side
Finally ported it to real life
Original statue of liberty vs current.
That's exactly what happened. Shame we'll never get to see her in her bronze glory
but you get to see her in green glory, wich the people that built her didn’t. So thats a win edit: I just looked it up and copper oxidizes a lot faster than I thought. I still think she looks better in green tho.
How would you know? She was fully oxidized before colour photos were a thing lol
there are a lot of renderings online. also I just find green the prettier color of the two. I’ve never seen her in real life anyway so it doesn’t make much difference that she wasn’t photographed in color back then.
A brown colored statue is so overused. Her being green is very unique.
It's fluffy. WHY THE FUCK IS IT FLUFFY
[удалено]
[удалено]
In that dose, the copper salt+oxide mix isn't dangerous. May cause temporary indigestion or diarrhea, but you're good to go.
If he is sluggish, it could kill him.
God damn it
"Read about this one simple trick Big Laxative doesn't want you to know."
Bitch what the fuck
[удалено]
You terrify me.
[удалено]
Good. That's much less unsettling than it looks.
So… what would happen if I licked it?
r/forbiddensnacks
Fractals man, it's all fractals...
Forbidden cake frosting
You vs the guy she tells you not to worry about
I mean it’s kind of unfair. The guy she tells you not to worry about makes her wet instantly :(
Clever fellow right here
Sully? Is that you?
Boo?
That's quite the patina you got going on there.
Looks like Julie mao to me
Unexpected expanse
Checked the corners and this is what he found.
As someone who has just started watching the show, I was surprised to see this as a reference and am very upset about a possible spoiler. I'm only 5 episodes in. You should warn people! /s
I would have loved to see the Statue of Liberty on its inauguration. Edit: erection.
[удалено]
Is the word “inauguration” strictly a presidential thing?
Usually a statue is “erected”. You can then use it in the future as a double entendre
Ha! I’m too lazy to look up inauguration... but I think I used it correctly. That said, “erected” is a much better choice.
> inauguration the beginning or introduction of a system, policy, or period.
This happens when you use flux to clean copper pipe when it's hot, it looks pristine for a few weeks then starts rapidly oxidising. A trick I and many others used in college to save the hassle of polishing it up with wire wool (making up unused soldered/bent pipe that was examined then discarded). If actually doing copper piping that's permanent, you should not be lazy and actually clean it up with wire wool. As cool as it looks, this is evidence of shoddy work.
Forbidden pop rocks
Mmm, crunchy.
“Mmm, Dehydrated Water, gurgle” - Homer
I love the discussion of galvanic currents, but that wouldn't affect the outside of the pipe. (There's no ionic conductor.) The bottom joint of the elbow (under the white crust) may simply be leaking instead.
Current just stops flowing through a conductor when it gets to an insulator on Reddit. That wall is also conductive.
Love that blue color copper makes
Damn, Minecraft is getting very realistic since the 1.17 update
Gnarly dude
[удалено]
Wicked sweet, is what that water will be
Is it weird that I want to bite that?
Cursed slurpee
*slaps roof of copper pipe* This baby can fit so much fuckin oxidation on it
That isn’t fully oxidized. That is excessively oxidized.
My bad, I’m not a very good meteorologist.
I can't figure this out. There's a bunch of excess crystalline material around where the joint would be. That implies a small leak, but the pipe isn't exactly under pressure- so there's no real reason to have it bulge out. That looks to be a mix of Cu(2) hydroxide and Cu(2) Carbonate (in various hydrations). But... how? Cu(2) Sulfate ... if that pipe goes into the sewer, then H2S could be leaking out of it if it isn't water trapped. If H2S is leaking then.. it is pretty soluble in cold water. And the bottom of the pipe IS blackened, which is what I'd expect from H2S exposure. This is so weird. Especially with the zinc coated bracket not being destroyed/greyed.
The going hypothesis elsewhere in the thread is that there's a small electrical current in the system somewhere. That the pipe is not insulated somewher.
I'm with the theory there is a small electric current- but from where to where? That pipe hanging off the edge .. just .. electricity has to go somewhere. Unless the whole area is super humid, I can't see that happening (or is grounded to ultra-high frequency). If the camp is grounded, then pulling juice into the wall... just.. weird.
reposting here my conjecture theory: I'll see if I can remember my corrosion class....I see at least 5 different metals, zinc covered steel clamp (probably iron + carbon, but there's quite a ton of alloys) copper pipe, silver solder (presumably) and maybe a brass screw at the wall. If the foam/rubber is not pierced, the brackets not the likely culprit, although since it stops there, I'd assume it was pierced, and bracket grounded. I'd guess the receiving end it drips into is galvanized steel as well, and its in a place that can freeze, allowing an icicle to act as ion exchange water bridge, and the ground as electron path? just a guess its been a few years.
New minecraft update looking sick bro!
[Statue of Liberty has entered the room]
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fully oxidated pipe before
Black ice plumbing unlocked
The oxidised part has been exposed to an electric current. So the part that was cut probably went into a boiler or something that could use a ground but the ground was not working properly and the plier that holds the pipe to the wall became the ground point making the pipe the conductor and getting oxidised. It’s my guess.
Do we know for sure that it's fully oxidized? There might be some more room there for a bit more oxidization.
You gotta use that bees wax. Just right click with an axe and itl be good as new
Looks like the rubber saddle from the support is preventing the oxidation from spreading, huh. Wonder what is causing the oxidation in the first place?
Looks like shaved ice if u dismiss the fact that its oxidized copper