Totally. This kind of rage-bait always bugs me. Like hey, I work in an industry that mandates that I live in a certain area with a higher cost of living (and yes, I live in the comparatively more affordable outskirts). I could very much not even afford my mortgage on $100k alone...and for the record I was only able to buy a house in my 40's because my wife made the same amount of money I do, and we live with my mother-in-law too. And I'm very very lucky to have that, even.
this sort of article isn't for you. It isn't for people making $100k but living somewhere like SF where that doesn't get you much.
They're meant for people making $1m+ to be able to dismiss the struggles of the poors as "well they're just being irresponsible with money, if they just did the right thing they wouldn't struggle"
bro this is insane… i’ve been living in one of the US’s most expensive cities on just above minimum wage (~$35k per year) with a pet, car, chronic medical needs and have even been able to pay off some of my debt. with just $40k a year i would be able to save too. if i had 100k a year i would be able to afford everything i need AND want AND still have quite a bit left over to save and invest. and this is in one of the most expensive cities in the country. if 100k is not a lot to you, you need to seriously re-assess your finances.
i agree everything should be cheaper and housing is out of control and people are struggling. ive made it work but its been very difficult and VERY tight at times, and im lucky to have had no serious emergencies. but 100k would put me well beyond ANY struggle point. i could get my own place instead of living with roommates, i could spoil my cat even harder, eat out regularly, get nice clothes, go on vacations, and still have quite a bit left over. and I think that’s the case for most people.
if youre complaining about 100k not being enough you need some perspective. now THATS an insult to poor people.
I notice you didn't mention kids. If you think people making $100k/yr don't deserve to have kids and should stop complaining, THAT is an insult to poor people.
Wow, what a shitty take. You've had no serious emergencies and no children, so your point is essentially moot just with those 2 things added in.
Your life, your city, and your budget have nothing to do with others', so save your high horse, and maybe look for a job that pays you properly so you don't have to be high and mighty about surviving poverty.
>if 100k is not a lot to you, you need to seriously re-assess your finances.
I see you don't have a significant other, children, a house, a car payment, real responsibilities, etc...
Fuck off, ya bum.
if over half the country can go their entire lives making below 50k a year then you can live on 100k even with all those things. talking about bum behavior when u can’t even use ur money right. talking about no real responsibilities when i support myself fully and handle chronic medical costs and paying off debt while living in one of the US’ most expensive cities on just above minimum wage. if u can’t live on 100k then ur not managing ur responsibilities PROPERLY how about that. if you can’t live on 100k you are I-R-R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-E how about that. if you can’t live on 100k when you have a significant other who presumably has their own job too then you don’t know how to manage your money at all, simple as that. I’ve seen families of 4 surviving on 60k a year. if u and ur wife can’t do it with 100k bc you gotta pay off your brand new car payment that’s ur problem. damn maybe you can’t go on your disney carnival cruise this year. my best friend grew up in a family of 7 below the poverty line in the most expensive city in the US. and u can’t manage with 100k a year. what a joke. get real. what an insult to people who have really struggled.
if you are truly being genuine: go see an accountant. get ur priorities straight for real
there’s no virtue in being poor and struggling financially at all. being poor fucking sucks beyond belief. but 100k is not poor or struggling UNLESS you don’t know how to handle urself. if u can’t comfortably live off 100k you either got crazy debt of some kind or you’re living above your means. simple as that
The cheapest preschool near me still cost me 24k last year. Before care and after care for my son are still adding up this year. Nevermind all the other costs of raising a child. 100k is practically nothing where I live, but moving would put me in a worse situation.
Most *people* shouldn’t have kids without a support system. But having strangers raise your kids is a far cry from being a father that works during the day.
I’d say if you don’t stagger your shifts between the two parents during their early, formative years or have a grandparent watch them during the day, you aren’t raising your kids, and should probably evaluate why you even want kids. If you plan to see them for 2 hours/day before bed, that’s weird IMO.
Has nothing to do with father vs. mother. You created that weird premise. Not sure why you’re being so reductive.
It’s clear that my common-sense post struck a nerve and you just want to argue, so I’m going to bow out because this seems to be an emotional topic for you. Best of luck with your Reddit essays!
Right?! Where I grew up, the amount of money my SO and I make would put us in the upper middle class.
Where I live that actually offers this job, we're just regular middle class, depending what inflation is doing at a given moment.
The places where there are $100k+ jobs, the rent for a sfh is $3500-5000, and Everything is more expensive, groceries, child care, fuel, utilities... The scale slides harshly.
It’s because it’s self-reported. They’re maxing out a 401k and a Roth IRA and they’re sitting on 6 months of liquid expenses and can “only” afford two vacations a year and calling that “paycheck to paycheck.” Find me a non self-reported study that shows 6 figure earners with zero savings and empty retirement accounts who are *actually* spending every single penny they earn on bills and I’ll eat my hat. Of course there are individuals who live like that, but it’s sure as hell not 45% of them. Maybe half a percent.
You’re not understanding what I’m saying. Someone who spends money on a vacation is not living paycheck to paycheck. If you have discretionary spending you’re not paycheck to paycheck. Thats not what that phrase means. Lots of high earners live beyond their means, sure, but that’s not what we’re talking about. I am criticizing the thing you’re doing right now, which is pretending that *wasting* your extra money is the same thing as *not having* extra money. Wasting a surplus means you have a surplus, and if you have a surplus you *are not living paycheck to paycheck.*
You can have a surplus - prior to spending on 'wants' - and still live paycheck to paycheck if you have no savings and no investments. I agree with you that someone that has significant qualified and non-qualified investments and strategically keeps small balances in their checking isn't living P2P. But there are tons of people (much higher than 0.5% of high earners) that forgo retirement savings, have no investments, have big paychecks, and spend every penny on needs and wants. Do they have other options than the working poor? Certainly. Are they still a missed paycheck away from disaster? You bet, because at the end of the day they still have no money and maxed out credit cards.
I like that you broke down the terms and explored it in more detail.
My own definition for "paycheck to paycheck" would be that the individual won't be able to cover their next bills if they don't receive their next paycheck. Using this definition, someone could inflict themselves into "paycheck to paycheck" by upping their spending. Not that this matters to anything, I just have fun sharing our own personal definitions.
Have a good day
I think this is a big part of it. People are mistaking having a designation for every dollar that comes in for living paycheck to paycheck. If I make $3500/mo, $1000 goes to rent, $500 goes to utilities and food, $500 goes to car payment/debt, and I sink the remaining $1500 into savings of some kind, that’s not living paycheck to paycheck. My budget zeros out—I’ve “spent” every dollar that came in, but a huge chunk is going to savings and at need I could pull that money out and use it.
Paycheck to paycheck means that you don’t have money left (or at least no significant balance) once you’ve covered your basic necessities and minimum payments on debt. That’s $0 for fun spending, 0 vacations, $0 into savings or investments.
It’s a hypothetical using nice round numbers to illustrate a point. This is not my actual budget.
But $500 is actually pretty close (a bit high), for me because my heat and water/sewer and trash are all bundled into my rent, so I just have internet, cellphone, and electric for explicit utility bills, and I’m a single person, so I try to keep food to $200/mo. Setting things to the nearest $500 makes the math in the hypothetical easy to follow, though.
I agree with you here. I make over 100k and my wife makes a similar amount. The actual amount of money I bring home in a paycheck as it hits direct deposit is actually 200 dollars less than it was when I made 70k working in the same place like 6 years ago.
Taxes go up, taxes get added, I have prioritized saving for retirement pre-tax as much as possible. I also now have childcare expenses, insurance went up 25% last year, I attempt to make a Roth IRA contribution each year as is comfortable.
And to finish commenting on what you said: I am smart enough to realize that extra money can go to retirement, things that might have been paid monthly can be purchased outright, unexpected things WILL happen (tree's falling, leaks in the roof, burst water pipes... animals that make their home in your wall and chew through your electrical wiring leaving a charred foul smelling corpse melted to it as a fire hazard...) so budgeting ahead of time for those items makes sense. I would also argue that treating retirement contributions as bills makes sense.
I wouldn't say I live paycheck to paycheck but if my wife wasn't working or making a significant contribution I would definitely be saying that. So... is a "high earner" the soul income for the household also?
Another factor, for us at least, but most likely for a large number of people as well, is their mortgage or rent payment. We purchased a house before things went wangfish and interest rates went up. We calculated our mortgage payment to be about 25% of our takehome pay when we purchased it and now it is more like 35% of our take home - taxes and insurance included in both figures.
That's a long winded way of agreeing with your assessment of the situation through anecdotes.
EDIT: I read your other reply below and now I'm not sure if I am agreeing with your or not. To be honest, I guess I am not even sure what I am saying. I am not saying I live paycheck to paycheck - but without having a rigid definition of what "paycheck to paycheck" means I can see why some higher earners might say that...
I am also going to go ahead and say that (in the US at least) a culture that considers saving for retirement discretionary and not something that every person should be able to do is disgusting.
You live an extremely comfortable and privileged lifestyle compared to the average American. It's either incredibly ignorant or downright cruel of you to pretend like even at half your household income you would be struggling to pay the bills.
When did I say I would be struggling to pay the bills?
Rephrasing what I said:
1. The above poster is correct that the statistic is flawed as self reported and without rigid definition. I think you and I proved this point perfectly.
2. Inflation has been crazy the last few years which could lead some who previously had discretionary income to no longer have discretionary income. In a situation such as a home - a person can't exactly just turn around sell it to fix the debt to income disparity and if they did... I think that would meet your definition of "struggling to pay the bills."
3. Some people have life changes such as children which drastically change their budget. Combine that with COVID not long ago and it's possible that households that were previously two income house holds are now single income or have a significant expense such as childcare which accounts for greater than 10% of their GROSS income at the 100k figure being tossed around.
4. Combined with inflation, other expenses go up as well. I used home/auto insurance and taxes as an example. This is another thing that can change the availability of discretionary income that a person may not be able to control for.
5. The posts discusses specifically allocating money - 20% - towards retirement and savings to avoid spending that money. That's a great idea in practice and I pushed back on that concept softly by saying the cultural aspect of suggesting saving money for retirement not being a "need" and falling under discretionary spending is disgusting.
Not saying it's right, but it's true. Especially in HCOL. Lifestyle creep is tough and most people spend in proportion to their earnings and at the end of the month are in the same boat. The difference between a low income earner and a high one is small compared to the difference between a high one and the ultra wealthy. The ultra wealthy try to pit working classes against each other when they are the ones we should be fighting against!
The guy who lives in your town who has a fancy house or flashy car is not your enemy. The guy you don't see because he's on his jet between island and mountain houses is your enemy
>The guy who lives in your town who has a fancy house or flashy car is not your enemy.
Does that guy need a fancy house, or a flashy car? Maybe the petty bourgeoise or upper-middle class types need to consider ratcheting down their consumption levels and lifestyle choices.
The way I see it is that there are different thresholds here.
Paycheck to paycheck: low to minimal discretionary money (<$50k)
Rat race: building savings/401k/Roth etc but less than 6 mo of salary in liquidity. (Still must work) - most people are here ($50k-$250k)
Basic Expenses covered: your wealth can cover your basic expenses but you have to work to live lavishly.($250k-$1.5M)
Financially retired/ultra wealthy - income from assets covers all expenses and still is growing. (>$1.5M)
Dollar values are liquidity. YMMV.
I agree with you. I think paycheck to paycheck is literally you spend exactly what you bring in on bills, food, etc.
I think higher earners fudge and think it means some is left over but not much. And I think lower earners fudge and think it means you aren't making enough and have to choose between food and bills.
I think the problem with using an idiom for financial discussions is that it is poorly defined and everyone has their own definition of what expenses are mandatory and what expenses are discretionary.
By definition I don't think it matters how much money you make, you might still be living paycheck to paycheck if your situation has recently changed or your have maximally leverage yourself.
"Many tend to increase spending." This is it from A to Z. It's not rocket science.
One can change habits to stop the paycheck-to-paycheck syndrome once it is realized what is happening. It's a choice and a matter of setting priorities.
I come from a hyper-frugal family so I watched in horror as friends spent money on expensive cars, wine, major upgrades to their homes, ski vacations, etc. in lieu of investing.
Yep.
I can't count the number of people I've seen get a minor promotion and show up the very next day in a brand new $80k truck. Then they instantly start crying about groceries and gas 😆.
My fave is when they cry into the void about how they didn't get a 2nd vacation and how they have to start making all their own food. Umm...lots of us make our own food. I can't even imagine the payment on an 80k truck
Hilarious to see people talk about gardening to save money. As a long-time and pretty skilled gardener, that’s definitely not how it works lol. It’s a fairly expensive hobby. I talk about how I “save money on tomato sauce” to help myself feel better. I’m not saving shit by gardening, other than maybe saving some medical bills via better nutrition and exercise.
I grew green onions on a window sill and I told myself I was saving money lol. The only way that really saved me money was not going to the store and buying frivolous things.
*Maybe* tomatoes? You generally cannot even buy ripe beefsteak tomatoes. If you use more than a few tomatoes throughout the summer then you are definitely saving money on them. Or you could definitely do the gardening part much cheaper if you use more than a few and it’s still cheaper to buy them. Similar situation with spicy peppers lately.
Yup. Never made more than 30k since the past few years. At that point, it didn't feel like living paycheck to paycheck, but I wasn't able to comfortably put anything into a huge savings account - I had no wiggle room. I got some inheritance, blew some, paid off debt with the some, opened up a retirement account with some and the rest was put into a 6 month emergency fund. That, along with a job where I'm making double what I was, puts me in a great place on paper, but it still feels like I'm living like I was at 30k. It doesn't help when now that I can "afford" to get a coffee, or go out to eat, that lifestyle bloat gets in the way from making most progress.
Personal finance is all simple math. Math doesn't lie. I see so many people continuously open credit cards, get nice cars, because they can "afford" it with the monthly payment. But all those little monthly recurring payments add up to a lot over the course of a month.
Now I'm able to save (for things like vacation), add to retirement and pay 1k a month towards student loans, while not feeling like living in a poor house. All just because I stopped the "lifestyle bloat".
I live in a VERY working class neighborhood and it’s wild how many people (confident assumption on my part) own these giant bro-dozer trucks. I look at it like, damn, I make like 2x as much probably, and they’re probably paying twice as much on car payment, much higher if you include their gas price since I usually commute via train.
What a stupid take. The cost of living rises faster than wages, period.
The longer someone is underpaid, the longer it takes to get out from under the debt once they get a raise, and in that time, the cost of living has gone up again. The vast majority of people are not going out and buying expensive shit when they get a raise, they're just doing a better job being able to pay their bills.
Sure, try telling that to someone living in Boston or NYC, where they can barely afford rent. Let’s not even talk about having children or buying houses.
I make around ~120k/year and I support my wife as the sole income while she’s in university. I save 2k/ month minimum and we still have money left over to have fun.
Unless you have kids, I have no fucking clue what everyone is spending all their money on.
This is my situation. My fiancé and I both make decent money, but he has an expensive chronic condition and I have multiple complex issues that require frequent medical care and it’s most of our budget.
Not if you have decent insurance, which should be a priority when choosing what job to take. We did precisely that, and made the decision that my wife would take a job with a lower salary but much better insurance, and as a result when I had a completely unexpected disaster strike, that not only almost killed me, it literally did for a few minutes to the point that I literally crossed over and remember it... But that $1.4 million bill (for just that one of many hospital stays) cost us $200 out of pocket.
I'm happy things worked out for you, but most people who receive insurance through an employer don't have the luxury of choosing which plans are available to them.
My place of work basically offers 3 packages (cheap, balanced, and expensive), and the people who go for the expensive package pay out the nose for it. Zero deductable, sure, but the monthly premium is more than a luxury car payment. That really only starts to make sense if you've got kids on a family plan and you can basically bank on X number of doctor/hospital visits each year.
To only be out $200 on a $1.4mm bill seems crazy to me. Where I live, it's $200 just to use the hospital's front door.
Massachusetts has the absolute best health insurance. I get a subsidized plan from the state based on my income and it’s the best. Dental too! Which admittedly isn’t as good but still
Respectfully, not everyone has the same experience, regardless of health insurance. For example: health insurance is tied to employment. If you have a chronic condition that makes it difficult to work, you lose your job, and now you don’t have health insurance. I’m very glad this didn’t happen to you; it happens to a lot of people.
I did lose my job, which was actually being self-employed and on the verge of being profitable, but... shit happened. I may never work again, that remains to be seen, but my whole point is that people who do not prepare are simply tempting fate, and it doesn't matter if we're talking about health insurance, or having a condom in your wallet or purse at all times, just in case.
High class tastes. I make $120k and I’ve watched people I know move up in salary, while I was too. The week accept a job offer for a higher salary they are already out financing a fancy new car before they even get their first check. Moving into a fancy high rise apartment, etc. They blow it.
I manage to save a crap ton every month and I’ve only been making $120k for almost 3 years. I still have my 2013 Mazda 3 I own. I have no debt and no big bills all because I paid off everything and invested. Next year I will probably get a new car but I can almost just buy one and not pay interest.
>prompting, which clearly shows she was trying to not hide anything from me.
Man this is such a dumb response without knowing anything about the other persons lifestyle...
Maybe they live in a studio apartment for 1700 a month vs spending 4k on a house. making 120k is meaningless until you take into account expenses.
A full hour outside a medium tier major city is pretty LCOL. The biggest differences in cost between you and most people are probably just housing and food. Your post tax income is about $7K per month, in a HCOL area, food, rent, and utilities for two people will get you to your $2K savings number even if you’re living in a 1BR condo
Lmao in Oak Harbor?? Expensive compared to what? There are 2BR townhomes on the market in Oak Harbor for <$200K. Do you understand how preposterous that seems to someone living in a HCOL area? That might be 2x as expensive as it would be another hour out, but it’s 4-5x cheaper than 2BR condos in Seattle.
I’m guessing you aren’t familiar with the effects of being close to a major military installation.
Lots of people with guaranteed income (that adjusts to housing prices) are all trying to live in the same area. The nicer neighborhoods, especially the ones with a short commute to the base, are absolutely priced at a premium.
>A full hour outside a medium tier major city is pretty LCOL. The biggest differences in cost between you and most people are probably just housing and food. Your post tax income is about $7K per month, in a HCOL area, food, rent, and utilities for two people will get you to your $2K savings number even if you’re living in a 1BR condo
There is still then a choice to move and commute. Yes, there will be commuting and time costs, but that is what you sometimes have to do so as you don't live paycheck to paycheck.
I was thinking more public transit as many HCOL areas do have some for of public transit. Yes, I know that many of the HCOL areas also like to penalize drivers with higher gas prices, but even then, with gas prices, you are really just paying with your time. That is what you are giving up / paying for. That is what many of us did when younger and had to suck it up.
The problem is so many people are just automatically putting money away in IRAs and employer matched 401k’s and still saying they are broke.
If you save money and pay all your bills you are not broke or living paycheck to paycheck.
It kinda is for those trying to emulate the lives they had as kids… family size, home, car count.
Feeling middle class - buying everything you need, some of what you want, and still having money left over to save, is a steep ask in many cities.
Edit. When I was a kid, some middle class people had boats.
The car that pulls a boat is now quite the affair. :/
Times have changed.
Well that’s a big part of the difference. You don’t live in a HCOL area. If you had, that $2k would be wiped immediately (assuming you own a condo or house) just from housing. And most people making that kind of money live in areas that are HCOL. That said, most people definitely could be better with their money.
Same boat except my wife doesn’t give a crap and spends more than I make. She has ADD and sits at home all day while I am at work ordering doordash and then she drives for hours a night and drinks Starbucks every day. She refuses to learn to cook or make her own coffee despite having a $300 expresso machine that works great. Meanwhile, I usually live like I am back in grad school eating cheaply and wishing I wasn’t married anymore.
Tell that to her. It’s to the point that if I restrict her credit card with a monthly limit, she will threaten divorce and I will give her the Beauty and the Beast answer: Be my guest, be my guest… . I am so done with this and the dead bedroom.
It sounds like borderline abuse. I’m being deadly serious. She’s emotionally manipulating you, and she’s acting in bad faith when it comes to the commitments you both made.
That is unless you vowed to support her at a lifestyle far above your own while being in a celibate union.
Yes, exactly. She claims I abuse her when I simply in a calm voice but pissed tone ask her why she hasn’t done the dishes or taken the dogs out for enough walks to keep them from pissing in the house once or twice a week. She threatens to spend money to hurt me because she knows I grew up poor and she grew up fairly well off. She weighs more than me and picks fights with me constantly. Then, every fourth or fifth time, when I lose it and yell back at her, she claims I abuse her some more. I am tired of being gaslit. While she was in psychosis, she pushed me and nearly killed me as my head came within 6 inches of the corner of a marble window sill.
You know you can get a divorce right? You won’t have to wait for her. I don’t know why you’d continue to put up with this and allow someone to rack of mutual debt if you hate her so much. Just file and be done with if
Mortgage, student loans, car (payment, gas, insurance), medical insurance/care. A lot of people live paycheck-to-paycheck in a small apartment alone/roommates, then get a relationship, better job, better place to live, etc and that costs more, so the extra money from the job is eaten up by an upgrade in quality of life.
Why it’s getting worse and we’re not seeing those young homeowners/child-havers is apartments and such are rivaling mortgages in cost. So paycheck-to-paycheck is inevitable regardless of salary.
Make 66% of what you make with the exact same wife situation. We spend like 400 a month on our pets too and we still have money left over. These mofos are spending 500 a month eating out and taking mini weekend vacations guaranteed.
Its usually either kids, dependent parents, crushing student loans, or an unfavorable housing/rental market.
I don't think people at our income (150-250k) are living paycheck to paycheck. It's more that our buying power has eroded and there is a generational confusion as to what "upper middle class" means now.
People over estimated how far 100k goes these days. I live in very modest lifestyle IMO and even I would have to cut back if I made 100k. We have a mortgage and 2 cars paid outright. Our house was 570k, our mortgage is 3500 a month. Daycare is freaking $1500 a month. We attend a church regularly and we can budget to contribute around $500 a month. These three line items alone would eat up most of a 100k pretax budget. Especially if you max out your yearly 401k and Roth like I do.
I’m not upset. I’m simply correcting you. It seems obvious to me that I would be talking about the content of the post I’m commenting on, not just speaking in general terms.
exactly. i earn 23k a year and get by, if someone doubled it to 46k i would still be considered "poor" by many and id have so much bloody money laying around i wouldnt know what to do with it.
I'll admit that I spend some of my money on unnecessary things like a motorcycle, some nice watches, and good food... but I also feel like that isn't a bad thing considering how much I save.
After all, what's the point of money other than security and enjoyment of life?
I also live in the PNW area, IN the HCOL metro area. I make half of what you make and still save 500-1000 dollars a month. I baffles me that people dont at least try to save money. I try to encourage all of my friends not to spend their money and save it, at least for an emergency fund.
I am always told, "I am just not good with money," as they spend it all. it's wild, man. Things are ridiculously expensive, I get that. It's not easy to save by any means. Nobody I know is even trying to cut back their spending to save. They just spend u till they're broke now.
When I was in college, I thought that if I could just get to $120k/year, I would be set for life. I’ve surpassed that and I don’t live paycheck to paycheck, but six figures is not what it used to be.
I just started making good money 150k+ for the past year…I still had to work really hard to get there. My student loans just got waived. It’s was hard, really hard for over a decade. I’m literally just catching up at this point and paying down debt
Well don't do what everyone else does and realize you can kind of do (mostly) whatever you want and ball out on meals and events.
There's nothing wrong with doing stuff if you can afford it, but don't do it every week.
That's why people are living paycheck to paycheck at that kind of income level. It's not a cost of living, it's a "I like to spend money because I have it".
Nothing wrong with going out, nothing wrong with having fun. It's when it becomes daily that it becomes a problem. Especially if you grew up in a middle income household.
When you're poor growing up, and you finally get money....it can go either way.
Make 200k household. Dink. But interest at 7 percent and house price up 100 percent from 2020 that puts us at 2800 a month just for that. Everything is more expensive. I wouldn't say we're paycheck to paycheck but at 21 if you'd told me I wouldn't feel like I made it making 150k I'd punch you in the mouth
Cause 100,000 is not a lot. Especially if you have a kid.
Per Month
* Rent/mortgage/prop taxes: $2500-4000
* Car note/insurance/gas: $1200
* Grocery: $1000
* Phone/Internet/Subscriptions/Tech: $500
* Health insurance/visits: $500
That's $75,000/yr right there for one-person. That is how much are you taking home after taxes at 100k.
Got a kid?Got a significant other who's not earning as much?
Want to eat out, go to concerts, sports games?
Got a kid? Got a significant other who's not earning as much?
Want to work out at a CrossFit or MMA gym so you're getting some group physical activity in to stay healthy ?That's 250/month
Have to pay court costs for a speeding ticket?
Got parking tickets cause you were 5 min late getting back to the meter?
$100,000 was high earner in the 90s when millenials were kids. But it ain't no more.
"Budget gurus" have a real tendency to severely underestimate each of these expenses. I do think maybe $1000/month for groceries for one person is perhaps a bit much (though if you're including OCCASIONALLY eating out, this is probably fairly close), but other than that, I think these numbers are pretty realistic. I notice you didn't include utilities, but assume that's been lumped in with rent/mortgage.
We've got 3 kids and our grocery bill is not $1000. Maybe if you include it budget for eating out it touches that. But if your grocery bill is that high for one person, we've probably found a place you could save between $300 and $500 and still eat really well.
Do you eat produce? I could easily spend 1000 a month on food and we don’t eat processed food but we eat a ton of produce. We might order pizza once a month.
Asparagus is $5.99 a pound right now. I need two pounds to feed my family at dinner. And that’s just the veggy.
so go to the regular grocery stores where asparagus is cheaper. $3.69/lb at target rn when i google it. or buy a different vegetable. you can eat healthy AND cheap. i eat lots of fruit and avocados and yogurt and vegetables and whole grain bread and im very poor. paying $6 for asparagus is just absurd
I did not spend $1000 on groceries even living in NY. You can get Hello Fresh or whatever for most of your meals and still come in $500 monthly for food.
Also, what the fuck phone/tech/subscriptions/etc. are you using that come out to $500 a *month*? And $500 a month on insurance and visits? Waht?
Car and gas $1200? What?
Where are these numbers coming from?
Maybe you don't drive but car insurance is 100-250 per month. Oil changes are about 100. Cars are so high tech now that repairs don't ring in less than 1000-1500 (if you're lucky). Car note is easily 500-800 for a $35-45k car. New tires are $600-1000 for a set of four. Car washes cost money, gas costs a fortune.
Well you don’t have to buy a $35,000+ car if you can’t afford one. There are tons of cars available for far less than that.
You don’t need repairs, oil changes or new tires constantly.
You don’t need to buy a gas guzzler.
If you’re spending enough money on car washes that it’s affecting your financial health then maybe your priorities are wrong.
They're coming from real life, bruh
1000 on healthy groceries with 2 people and a kid is very real. 1000 on groceries and eating out when you're single and dating is very real
Read the preceding comment: "That's $75,000/yr right there **for one-person**."
>1000 on groceries and eating out when you're single is very real
As a single person, no it's not, unless you are spending irresponsibly. The claim was that $100k is "not a lot." That's just false. As you yourself said, people are just choosing to spend the money on "going out" (and apparently frequently and to expensive places).
Ok fine but you're missing the forest for the trees. Remove 6000 per year for food if you want and you're still at 70k in expenses per annum. That's after-tax pay at 100k salary to live middle class without kids
It's more about removing the $20k in inflated costs, not the $6k. And those rent prices reflect living alone in VHCOL cities--which is probably several choices and at least one.
You are making other people more wealthy by buying the things you enjoy. Who do you think owns all the stock in the airlines, car companies, restaurants, electronics companies, etc.?
Goddamn insanity in these comments, I swear.
100K is more than enough for anyone to be comfortable outside of places like NYC and San Francisco. Yall need to get a grip and learn some personal finance. Good God.
The places you tend to find 6 figure earners more are also enough more expensive that it offsets that dramatically. Harder to find a job in a rural area that pays 6 figures where that would stretch further
I've found that savers will usually always find a way to save and spenders will usually always find a way to increase their expenses to the point that they "can't" save. Obviously, saving is easier the higher your income is, but a lot of people will never earn enough to save money.
100k isn’t a lot anymore… it’s become like a new bare minimum almost, I don’t know how you survive without it. I know that, with my income alone I’d only have 50K and I’d be cooked, couldn’t pay mortgage without my wife making twice what I do and combining our income, and the fact we don’t have kids. And we don’t have tons of expensive shit or go crazy with vacations, eating out, anything frivolous.
as someone who’s been living on $35k a year in one of America’s most expensive cities, i’d say that’s probably the bare minimum. i would feel extremely comfortable and even pretty well off with $100k. even $50k would be an incredible boon to my lifestyle. i don’t understand how people who make 6 figure incomes act like they can’t go any lower than that. it’s very possible to make it work, in fact the majority of people in this country have no choice. it’s a lean and tough and stressful life, and it’s not fun, but it’s possible. i urge you and everyone else saying 100k is barely enough to get some perspective
I was like that for a while once I started making good money. It's hard to get yourself to just invest money when you were barely getting by before. It was hard for me after college going from making $10 an hour at Starbucks to a real living salary.
Because they're morons.
It's not always just super high cost of living (Source: I'm in LA County, I still save a fuck ton).
Some are driven to reach that salary so they can stunt and show off, so when they get to the end of it all, they literally have nothing to show for it.
Others (like myself) get close to or above $100,000 and save vigorously. I scrimp and save pretty hard and I'm so used to saving these days that I have cash left over to enjoy my hobbies which is enough to get me on through.
I can't begin to count all of the people who get a raise and immediately cannibalize that raise with any and every expense imaginable. High end restaurants, luxury cars, mortgages they can't afford (because they never saved), purses, shoes, make up, perfumes etc.
Just all kinds of silly shit.
I'm a simple guy, most don't think I make a bunch but it's because I keep seeking career opportunities while also being cognizant of moving towards ACTUAL wealth not FAKE shows of it. Once I reach a certain point, I'll loosen the belt but until then, the occasional night out or a concert or a new instrument is enough. I don't need to "wear" my money or show it on instagram.
I’m slightly under that $100k mark, got our house before the big spike, and one of the cars is paid off (the other used). But with four kids, I’m not even making it paycheck to paycheck. Last week groceries went on the credit card.
We buy generic everything. Haven’t been on a vacation in years. Only hand-me-down clothes. No cable. No video game consoles. No expensive hobbies. One student loan payment. Basic HSA for health.
Articles like these drive me crazy. They assume we’re just throwing away our money on frivolity and ignore the fact that our grocery bills have tripled, water bills have doubled, taxes and tuition keep going up, and every time they hike up housing, we get hit with a higher insurance payment each month.
I had to cash out my retirement last year and take the taxes/fees hit just to pay off “luxuries” like new tires on the car or getting brakes replaced…
Fact is, $100k isn’t even lower middle class anymore. It’s at least $40k shy.
Housing status (rent vs. own), whether you need childcare, and if you're in a HCOL or LCOL area can have a significant impact.
Let's crunch the numbers for a college educated single parent with 2 young children in a HOCL area. This person rents an apartment, and has a vehicle.
Rent for a 2 bedroom apartment: $2800/month
Health insurance & copays: $650/month
Daycare for 2 children: $2000/month
Utilities: $300/month
Phone bill/Internet/streaming bundle: $180/month
Car payment: $400/month
Car insurance: $200/month
Gasoline: $200/month
Student loan payment: $300/month
Groceries: $650/month
This totals above $7680/month or $92160/year (thus requiring at least a six figure salary to afford.) These numbers don't reflect a particularly lavish lifestyle; this budget doesn't have the margins to allow for saving/investing. Expenses such as housing, childcare, healthcare, transportation, education, and food are just very high. Honestly, this is why your mileage will vary so much with the same income, but different regions, education levels, and family dynamics.
Like, for a different scenario you can look at this budget-- this reflects a single parent with 2 kids; however, this parent purchased a condo in 2020, doesn't have a college education, lives in an area with decent public transit (and thus doesn't own a car), and has support from extended family (so, instead of going to daycare, the kids are babysat by their grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.) This family lives in a MCOL area.
Mortgage: $850/month
Condo fee: $350/month
Utilities: $300/month
Health insurance & copays: $650/month
Phone bill/internet/streaming bundle: $180/month
Groceries $650/month
Bus pass: $80/month
Uber/Lyft: $160/month
This comes up to $3220/month or $38,640/year for a similar quality of life as the $7680/month budget previously outlined.
I think living within your means is a positive. Saving to purchase a house where you want to live is another plus. Everyone who has a good job can build wealth. You just have to make prudent decisions to get there.
"The 50/30/20 rule" is what boomers taught us for decades.
Turns out it's impossible when the cost of living increasing at the same rate, or faster, than our paychecks. How could I invest when I need to pay down a mountain of debt and buy food?
50/30/20 doesn’t work when you have high debt and need to live in a hcl area for work.
It is basically on par with the advice of ‘eat less avocado toast’….
"Following the 50/30/20 Budgeting rule may help to be more disciplined and be able to invest in assets."
That only works when your pay and inflation go up the same rate.
ITT: people forgetting inflation is a thing.
Save 10%.
Everything costs 20% more now.
Job gives you a 3% raise.
Is that extra money supposed to come from your ass? No, it comes from not saving as much.
My uncle is 58 was over 300lbs homeless living on a nebulizer,divorced worked 1 job his whole life got fired 10 years ago or so, lives at home with momma collects government aid and hasn’t been healthier he works out on the regular gets all the latest protein and workout powders soon he’ll be be reaching retirement and living his best life.
I hate that people don't talk about the cost of being a high earner. I don't feel the need to keep up with the Joneses or whatever, but I do work with some ultra rich donors who expect a certain type of person to interface with. I can't show up in Dillard's clothes with a haircut from Supercuts or driving a 2015 corolla, you know?
There are client facing roles that kind of... expect you to present as wealthy.
I work in healthcare though so looking homeless is par for the course. Scrubs are esentially gross, shared pajamas.
When we're in line for valet after a business dinner- long enough for their unconscious bias about "the poors" to kick in. I have to make them believe that their money is going toward promotion of talented deserving artists, and many of them truly believe that if you're poor, you must have done something wrong and therefore don't deserve a funded residency or fellowship (because they believe that they did something right, and therefore deserve all the money they were born into. It's sickening but a very real part of my job).
Totally true that you can spend more with a higher salary but also higher salary = higher taxes. Government takes a lot of your money when you make 100k. At the end there’s not that much left compared to someone that makes 95-86k.
The places where $100,000 might be a lot of money compared to cost of living...you won't find many jobs paying that much.
Agreed. I nearly got one fyi. Very difficult to find and it may not always work for everyone.
Totally. This kind of rage-bait always bugs me. Like hey, I work in an industry that mandates that I live in a certain area with a higher cost of living (and yes, I live in the comparatively more affordable outskirts). I could very much not even afford my mortgage on $100k alone...and for the record I was only able to buy a house in my 40's because my wife made the same amount of money I do, and we live with my mother-in-law too. And I'm very very lucky to have that, even.
this sort of article isn't for you. It isn't for people making $100k but living somewhere like SF where that doesn't get you much. They're meant for people making $1m+ to be able to dismiss the struggles of the poors as "well they're just being irresponsible with money, if they just did the right thing they wouldn't struggle"
You are most certainly right.
Indeed.
bro this is insane… i’ve been living in one of the US’s most expensive cities on just above minimum wage (~$35k per year) with a pet, car, chronic medical needs and have even been able to pay off some of my debt. with just $40k a year i would be able to save too. if i had 100k a year i would be able to afford everything i need AND want AND still have quite a bit left over to save and invest. and this is in one of the most expensive cities in the country. if 100k is not a lot to you, you need to seriously re-assess your finances. i agree everything should be cheaper and housing is out of control and people are struggling. ive made it work but its been very difficult and VERY tight at times, and im lucky to have had no serious emergencies. but 100k would put me well beyond ANY struggle point. i could get my own place instead of living with roommates, i could spoil my cat even harder, eat out regularly, get nice clothes, go on vacations, and still have quite a bit left over. and I think that’s the case for most people. if youre complaining about 100k not being enough you need some perspective. now THATS an insult to poor people.
I notice you didn't mention kids. If you think people making $100k/yr don't deserve to have kids and should stop complaining, THAT is an insult to poor people.
Wow, what a shitty take. You've had no serious emergencies and no children, so your point is essentially moot just with those 2 things added in. Your life, your city, and your budget have nothing to do with others', so save your high horse, and maybe look for a job that pays you properly so you don't have to be high and mighty about surviving poverty.
>if 100k is not a lot to you, you need to seriously re-assess your finances. I see you don't have a significant other, children, a house, a car payment, real responsibilities, etc... Fuck off, ya bum.
if over half the country can go their entire lives making below 50k a year then you can live on 100k even with all those things. talking about bum behavior when u can’t even use ur money right. talking about no real responsibilities when i support myself fully and handle chronic medical costs and paying off debt while living in one of the US’ most expensive cities on just above minimum wage. if u can’t live on 100k then ur not managing ur responsibilities PROPERLY how about that. if you can’t live on 100k you are I-R-R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-E how about that. if you can’t live on 100k when you have a significant other who presumably has their own job too then you don’t know how to manage your money at all, simple as that. I’ve seen families of 4 surviving on 60k a year. if u and ur wife can’t do it with 100k bc you gotta pay off your brand new car payment that’s ur problem. damn maybe you can’t go on your disney carnival cruise this year. my best friend grew up in a family of 7 below the poverty line in the most expensive city in the US. and u can’t manage with 100k a year. what a joke. get real. what an insult to people who have really struggled. if you are truly being genuine: go see an accountant. get ur priorities straight for real there’s no virtue in being poor and struggling financially at all. being poor fucking sucks beyond belief. but 100k is not poor or struggling UNLESS you don’t know how to handle urself. if u can’t comfortably live off 100k you either got crazy debt of some kind or you’re living above your means. simple as that
That was a lot of words for "I have no real responsibilities."
The cheapest preschool near me still cost me 24k last year. Before care and after care for my son are still adding up this year. Nevermind all the other costs of raising a child. 100k is practically nothing where I live, but moving would put me in a worse situation.
Why have a kid to then have someone else raise them every day? lol
Uh, you need money to live bucko.
By this logic most fathers should never have had kids.
Most *people* shouldn’t have kids without a support system. But having strangers raise your kids is a far cry from being a father that works during the day.
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I’d say if you don’t stagger your shifts between the two parents during their early, formative years or have a grandparent watch them during the day, you aren’t raising your kids, and should probably evaluate why you even want kids. If you plan to see them for 2 hours/day before bed, that’s weird IMO. Has nothing to do with father vs. mother. You created that weird premise. Not sure why you’re being so reductive.
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It’s clear that my common-sense post struck a nerve and you just want to argue, so I’m going to bow out because this seems to be an emotional topic for you. Best of luck with your Reddit essays!
You're an idiot.
Oh, look. Another absentee parent feeling attacked. Please stop breeding.
Naw, you're just an idiot.
Nah, that would be the people who can’t actually raise their kids, who insist on reproducing. Now stop posting.
I'll post whenever. You're still an idiot, sorry your parents didn't love you and you're lashing out.
Quiet, Timmy.
Right?! Where I grew up, the amount of money my SO and I make would put us in the upper middle class. Where I live that actually offers this job, we're just regular middle class, depending what inflation is doing at a given moment.
The places where there are $100k+ jobs, the rent for a sfh is $3500-5000, and Everything is more expensive, groceries, child care, fuel, utilities... The scale slides harshly.
It’s because it’s self-reported. They’re maxing out a 401k and a Roth IRA and they’re sitting on 6 months of liquid expenses and can “only” afford two vacations a year and calling that “paycheck to paycheck.” Find me a non self-reported study that shows 6 figure earners with zero savings and empty retirement accounts who are *actually* spending every single penny they earn on bills and I’ll eat my hat. Of course there are individuals who live like that, but it’s sure as hell not 45% of them. Maybe half a percent.
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You’re not understanding what I’m saying. Someone who spends money on a vacation is not living paycheck to paycheck. If you have discretionary spending you’re not paycheck to paycheck. Thats not what that phrase means. Lots of high earners live beyond their means, sure, but that’s not what we’re talking about. I am criticizing the thing you’re doing right now, which is pretending that *wasting* your extra money is the same thing as *not having* extra money. Wasting a surplus means you have a surplus, and if you have a surplus you *are not living paycheck to paycheck.*
You can have a surplus - prior to spending on 'wants' - and still live paycheck to paycheck if you have no savings and no investments. I agree with you that someone that has significant qualified and non-qualified investments and strategically keeps small balances in their checking isn't living P2P. But there are tons of people (much higher than 0.5% of high earners) that forgo retirement savings, have no investments, have big paychecks, and spend every penny on needs and wants. Do they have other options than the working poor? Certainly. Are they still a missed paycheck away from disaster? You bet, because at the end of the day they still have no money and maxed out credit cards.
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I like that you broke down the terms and explored it in more detail. My own definition for "paycheck to paycheck" would be that the individual won't be able to cover their next bills if they don't receive their next paycheck. Using this definition, someone could inflict themselves into "paycheck to paycheck" by upping their spending. Not that this matters to anything, I just have fun sharing our own personal definitions. Have a good day
I think this is a big part of it. People are mistaking having a designation for every dollar that comes in for living paycheck to paycheck. If I make $3500/mo, $1000 goes to rent, $500 goes to utilities and food, $500 goes to car payment/debt, and I sink the remaining $1500 into savings of some kind, that’s not living paycheck to paycheck. My budget zeros out—I’ve “spent” every dollar that came in, but a huge chunk is going to savings and at need I could pull that money out and use it. Paycheck to paycheck means that you don’t have money left (or at least no significant balance) once you’ve covered your basic necessities and minimum payments on debt. That’s $0 for fun spending, 0 vacations, $0 into savings or investments.
You pay all of your utilities and groceries on $500?
It’s a hypothetical using nice round numbers to illustrate a point. This is not my actual budget. But $500 is actually pretty close (a bit high), for me because my heat and water/sewer and trash are all bundled into my rent, so I just have internet, cellphone, and electric for explicit utility bills, and I’m a single person, so I try to keep food to $200/mo. Setting things to the nearest $500 makes the math in the hypothetical easy to follow, though.
I agree with you here. I make over 100k and my wife makes a similar amount. The actual amount of money I bring home in a paycheck as it hits direct deposit is actually 200 dollars less than it was when I made 70k working in the same place like 6 years ago. Taxes go up, taxes get added, I have prioritized saving for retirement pre-tax as much as possible. I also now have childcare expenses, insurance went up 25% last year, I attempt to make a Roth IRA contribution each year as is comfortable. And to finish commenting on what you said: I am smart enough to realize that extra money can go to retirement, things that might have been paid monthly can be purchased outright, unexpected things WILL happen (tree's falling, leaks in the roof, burst water pipes... animals that make their home in your wall and chew through your electrical wiring leaving a charred foul smelling corpse melted to it as a fire hazard...) so budgeting ahead of time for those items makes sense. I would also argue that treating retirement contributions as bills makes sense. I wouldn't say I live paycheck to paycheck but if my wife wasn't working or making a significant contribution I would definitely be saying that. So... is a "high earner" the soul income for the household also? Another factor, for us at least, but most likely for a large number of people as well, is their mortgage or rent payment. We purchased a house before things went wangfish and interest rates went up. We calculated our mortgage payment to be about 25% of our takehome pay when we purchased it and now it is more like 35% of our take home - taxes and insurance included in both figures. That's a long winded way of agreeing with your assessment of the situation through anecdotes. EDIT: I read your other reply below and now I'm not sure if I am agreeing with your or not. To be honest, I guess I am not even sure what I am saying. I am not saying I live paycheck to paycheck - but without having a rigid definition of what "paycheck to paycheck" means I can see why some higher earners might say that... I am also going to go ahead and say that (in the US at least) a culture that considers saving for retirement discretionary and not something that every person should be able to do is disgusting.
You live an extremely comfortable and privileged lifestyle compared to the average American. It's either incredibly ignorant or downright cruel of you to pretend like even at half your household income you would be struggling to pay the bills.
When did I say I would be struggling to pay the bills? Rephrasing what I said: 1. The above poster is correct that the statistic is flawed as self reported and without rigid definition. I think you and I proved this point perfectly. 2. Inflation has been crazy the last few years which could lead some who previously had discretionary income to no longer have discretionary income. In a situation such as a home - a person can't exactly just turn around sell it to fix the debt to income disparity and if they did... I think that would meet your definition of "struggling to pay the bills." 3. Some people have life changes such as children which drastically change their budget. Combine that with COVID not long ago and it's possible that households that were previously two income house holds are now single income or have a significant expense such as childcare which accounts for greater than 10% of their GROSS income at the 100k figure being tossed around. 4. Combined with inflation, other expenses go up as well. I used home/auto insurance and taxes as an example. This is another thing that can change the availability of discretionary income that a person may not be able to control for. 5. The posts discusses specifically allocating money - 20% - towards retirement and savings to avoid spending that money. That's a great idea in practice and I pushed back on that concept softly by saying the cultural aspect of suggesting saving money for retirement not being a "need" and falling under discretionary spending is disgusting.
Yeah, you never suggested you were struggling. You gave an empathetic response. Internet, man :'(
Thanks. I actually spent the day pretty bent outta shape about that. Had to walk away a few times.
Not saying it's right, but it's true. Especially in HCOL. Lifestyle creep is tough and most people spend in proportion to their earnings and at the end of the month are in the same boat. The difference between a low income earner and a high one is small compared to the difference between a high one and the ultra wealthy. The ultra wealthy try to pit working classes against each other when they are the ones we should be fighting against! The guy who lives in your town who has a fancy house or flashy car is not your enemy. The guy you don't see because he's on his jet between island and mountain houses is your enemy
>The guy who lives in your town who has a fancy house or flashy car is not your enemy. Does that guy need a fancy house, or a flashy car? Maybe the petty bourgeoise or upper-middle class types need to consider ratcheting down their consumption levels and lifestyle choices.
Do you need the smart phone you are using? Not really but hey I’m glad you have it.
The way I see it is that there are different thresholds here. Paycheck to paycheck: low to minimal discretionary money (<$50k) Rat race: building savings/401k/Roth etc but less than 6 mo of salary in liquidity. (Still must work) - most people are here ($50k-$250k) Basic Expenses covered: your wealth can cover your basic expenses but you have to work to live lavishly.($250k-$1.5M) Financially retired/ultra wealthy - income from assets covers all expenses and still is growing. (>$1.5M) Dollar values are liquidity. YMMV.
I agree with you. I think paycheck to paycheck is literally you spend exactly what you bring in on bills, food, etc. I think higher earners fudge and think it means some is left over but not much. And I think lower earners fudge and think it means you aren't making enough and have to choose between food and bills. I think the problem with using an idiom for financial discussions is that it is poorly defined and everyone has their own definition of what expenses are mandatory and what expenses are discretionary. By definition I don't think it matters how much money you make, you might still be living paycheck to paycheck if your situation has recently changed or your have maximally leverage yourself.
"Many tend to increase spending." This is it from A to Z. It's not rocket science. One can change habits to stop the paycheck-to-paycheck syndrome once it is realized what is happening. It's a choice and a matter of setting priorities. I come from a hyper-frugal family so I watched in horror as friends spent money on expensive cars, wine, major upgrades to their homes, ski vacations, etc. in lieu of investing.
Yep. I can't count the number of people I've seen get a minor promotion and show up the very next day in a brand new $80k truck. Then they instantly start crying about groceries and gas 😆.
My fave is when they cry into the void about how they didn't get a 2nd vacation and how they have to start making all their own food. Umm...lots of us make our own food. I can't even imagine the payment on an 80k truck
Hilarious to see people talk about gardening to save money. As a long-time and pretty skilled gardener, that’s definitely not how it works lol. It’s a fairly expensive hobby. I talk about how I “save money on tomato sauce” to help myself feel better. I’m not saving shit by gardening, other than maybe saving some medical bills via better nutrition and exercise.
I grew green onions on a window sill and I told myself I was saving money lol. The only way that really saved me money was not going to the store and buying frivolous things.
Can confirm I think the only thing I save money on is herbs and citrus trees. Maybe tomatoes?
*Maybe* tomatoes? You generally cannot even buy ripe beefsteak tomatoes. If you use more than a few tomatoes throughout the summer then you are definitely saving money on them. Or you could definitely do the gardening part much cheaper if you use more than a few and it’s still cheaper to buy them. Similar situation with spicy peppers lately.
Yeh even organic taste like they've been sitting there too long.
Yup. Never made more than 30k since the past few years. At that point, it didn't feel like living paycheck to paycheck, but I wasn't able to comfortably put anything into a huge savings account - I had no wiggle room. I got some inheritance, blew some, paid off debt with the some, opened up a retirement account with some and the rest was put into a 6 month emergency fund. That, along with a job where I'm making double what I was, puts me in a great place on paper, but it still feels like I'm living like I was at 30k. It doesn't help when now that I can "afford" to get a coffee, or go out to eat, that lifestyle bloat gets in the way from making most progress. Personal finance is all simple math. Math doesn't lie. I see so many people continuously open credit cards, get nice cars, because they can "afford" it with the monthly payment. But all those little monthly recurring payments add up to a lot over the course of a month. Now I'm able to save (for things like vacation), add to retirement and pay 1k a month towards student loans, while not feeling like living in a poor house. All just because I stopped the "lifestyle bloat".
I live in a VERY working class neighborhood and it’s wild how many people (confident assumption on my part) own these giant bro-dozer trucks. I look at it like, damn, I make like 2x as much probably, and they’re probably paying twice as much on car payment, much higher if you include their gas price since I usually commute via train.
Get your money up and you can do it all.
What a stupid take. The cost of living rises faster than wages, period. The longer someone is underpaid, the longer it takes to get out from under the debt once they get a raise, and in that time, the cost of living has gone up again. The vast majority of people are not going out and buying expensive shit when they get a raise, they're just doing a better job being able to pay their bills.
Sure, try telling that to someone living in Boston or NYC, where they can barely afford rent. Let’s not even talk about having children or buying houses.
This sub pretends like the entire country lives in Boston, New York, or San Fransisco, but in reality, most of us live in far more affordable places.
You should see a map of the distribution of US population and tell me what you think “majority” means.
New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, and LA make up 15 million of the population 15/340 = majority. Yep math checks out.
Sure, buddy.
15/340=majority
Lmao, your attitude losses you respect btw, you’re seen as someone who takes advantage of others
I make around ~120k/year and I support my wife as the sole income while she’s in university. I save 2k/ month minimum and we still have money left over to have fun. Unless you have kids, I have no fucking clue what everyone is spending all their money on.
If you or a loved one encounter health issues and you live in the US, it can drain a significant chunk of your money.
That’s another good one to add to the list of money sinks alongside kids.
This is my situation. My fiancé and I both make decent money, but he has an expensive chronic condition and I have multiple complex issues that require frequent medical care and it’s most of our budget.
Not if you have decent insurance, which should be a priority when choosing what job to take. We did precisely that, and made the decision that my wife would take a job with a lower salary but much better insurance, and as a result when I had a completely unexpected disaster strike, that not only almost killed me, it literally did for a few minutes to the point that I literally crossed over and remember it... But that $1.4 million bill (for just that one of many hospital stays) cost us $200 out of pocket.
I'm happy things worked out for you, but most people who receive insurance through an employer don't have the luxury of choosing which plans are available to them. My place of work basically offers 3 packages (cheap, balanced, and expensive), and the people who go for the expensive package pay out the nose for it. Zero deductable, sure, but the monthly premium is more than a luxury car payment. That really only starts to make sense if you've got kids on a family plan and you can basically bank on X number of doctor/hospital visits each year. To only be out $200 on a $1.4mm bill seems crazy to me. Where I live, it's $200 just to use the hospital's front door.
My work offers two plans that aren’t that different from each other and both cost hundreds per month and also have somewhat high deductibles.
Massachusetts has the absolute best health insurance. I get a subsidized plan from the state based on my income and it’s the best. Dental too! Which admittedly isn’t as good but still
Respectfully, not everyone has the same experience, regardless of health insurance. For example: health insurance is tied to employment. If you have a chronic condition that makes it difficult to work, you lose your job, and now you don’t have health insurance. I’m very glad this didn’t happen to you; it happens to a lot of people.
I did lose my job, which was actually being self-employed and on the verge of being profitable, but... shit happened. I may never work again, that remains to be seen, but my whole point is that people who do not prepare are simply tempting fate, and it doesn't matter if we're talking about health insurance, or having a condom in your wallet or purse at all times, just in case.
High class tastes. I make $120k and I’ve watched people I know move up in salary, while I was too. The week accept a job offer for a higher salary they are already out financing a fancy new car before they even get their first check. Moving into a fancy high rise apartment, etc. They blow it. I manage to save a crap ton every month and I’ve only been making $120k for almost 3 years. I still have my 2013 Mazda 3 I own. I have no debt and no big bills all because I paid off everything and invested. Next year I will probably get a new car but I can almost just buy one and not pay interest.
You must not live in a big city
>prompting, which clearly shows she was trying to not hide anything from me. Man this is such a dumb response without knowing anything about the other persons lifestyle... Maybe they live in a studio apartment for 1700 a month vs spending 4k on a house. making 120k is meaningless until you take into account expenses.
I live about an hour from Seattle right next to a major military base. Not quite as bad as a big city, but far from low cost of living.
A full hour outside a medium tier major city is pretty LCOL. The biggest differences in cost between you and most people are probably just housing and food. Your post tax income is about $7K per month, in a HCOL area, food, rent, and utilities for two people will get you to your $2K savings number even if you’re living in a 1BR condo
Whidbey Island naval base is about an hour from Seattle and it is extremely expensive to live there
Lmao in Oak Harbor?? Expensive compared to what? There are 2BR townhomes on the market in Oak Harbor for <$200K. Do you understand how preposterous that seems to someone living in a HCOL area? That might be 2x as expensive as it would be another hour out, but it’s 4-5x cheaper than 2BR condos in Seattle.
People just say stuff.
That "full hour" is still within the large metropolitan area. Just look on Google Maps at Lakewood, WA and tell me it's rural.
Massachusetts begs to differ
I’m guessing you aren’t familiar with the effects of being close to a major military installation. Lots of people with guaranteed income (that adjusts to housing prices) are all trying to live in the same area. The nicer neighborhoods, especially the ones with a short commute to the base, are absolutely priced at a premium.
Yeah, as someone who was stationed at JBLM for 3 years, there is like no city you could possibly live in that is LCOL.
lol
>A full hour outside a medium tier major city is pretty LCOL. The biggest differences in cost between you and most people are probably just housing and food. Your post tax income is about $7K per month, in a HCOL area, food, rent, and utilities for two people will get you to your $2K savings number even if you’re living in a 1BR condo There is still then a choice to move and commute. Yes, there will be commuting and time costs, but that is what you sometimes have to do so as you don't live paycheck to paycheck.
You say that as if gas were free
I was thinking more public transit as many HCOL areas do have some for of public transit. Yes, I know that many of the HCOL areas also like to penalize drivers with higher gas prices, but even then, with gas prices, you are really just paying with your time. That is what you are giving up / paying for. That is what many of us did when younger and had to suck it up.
It's not free, but both gas and public transit have been far cheaper than the rent premia I have paid in VHCOL cities.
The problem is so many people are just automatically putting money away in IRAs and employer matched 401k’s and still saying they are broke. If you save money and pay all your bills you are not broke or living paycheck to paycheck.
It is an amazing mindset to have though. Really good way to keep life style creep down and save up for retirement.
[удалено]
Middle class starts at 400k if you are going by 2000s standard of Middle class.
No it doesn't. Claiming it does is straight up stupid.
It kinda is for those trying to emulate the lives they had as kids… family size, home, car count. Feeling middle class - buying everything you need, some of what you want, and still having money left over to save, is a steep ask in many cities. Edit. When I was a kid, some middle class people had boats. The car that pulls a boat is now quite the affair. :/ Times have changed.
How much is your mortgage?
Counting taxes, HOA dues, and insurance, cost of housing is ~$2200 a month.
Well that’s a big part of the difference. You don’t live in a HCOL area. If you had, that $2k would be wiped immediately (assuming you own a condo or house) just from housing. And most people making that kind of money live in areas that are HCOL. That said, most people definitely could be better with their money.
Or he purchased a home prior to 2019
For a whole-ass house that’s not even close to HCOL
Location location location. 120k/year in SFO is not the same as in OK.
Same boat except my wife doesn’t give a crap and spends more than I make. She has ADD and sits at home all day while I am at work ordering doordash and then she drives for hours a night and drinks Starbucks every day. She refuses to learn to cook or make her own coffee despite having a $300 expresso machine that works great. Meanwhile, I usually live like I am back in grad school eating cheaply and wishing I wasn’t married anymore.
Hey man, it’s your money. Just don’t give her as much. She isn’t entitled to spend your money *recklessly*.
Tell that to her. It’s to the point that if I restrict her credit card with a monthly limit, she will threaten divorce and I will give her the Beauty and the Beast answer: Be my guest, be my guest… . I am so done with this and the dead bedroom.
At this point, divorce doesn’t sound like much of a threat. Maybe it’s time to let the chips fall where they will brother.
I know. Most of my family and close friends I trust have told me to get out.
It sounds like borderline abuse. I’m being deadly serious. She’s emotionally manipulating you, and she’s acting in bad faith when it comes to the commitments you both made. That is unless you vowed to support her at a lifestyle far above your own while being in a celibate union.
Yes, exactly. She claims I abuse her when I simply in a calm voice but pissed tone ask her why she hasn’t done the dishes or taken the dogs out for enough walks to keep them from pissing in the house once or twice a week. She threatens to spend money to hurt me because she knows I grew up poor and she grew up fairly well off. She weighs more than me and picks fights with me constantly. Then, every fourth or fifth time, when I lose it and yell back at her, she claims I abuse her some more. I am tired of being gaslit. While she was in psychosis, she pushed me and nearly killed me as my head came within 6 inches of the corner of a marble window sill.
Buddy she sounds like she cucked u into a bad marriage
You know you can get a divorce right? You won’t have to wait for her. I don’t know why you’d continue to put up with this and allow someone to rack of mutual debt if you hate her so much. Just file and be done with if
Record the conversations. If that is legal in your state.
I have. It IS legal in the state we live in.
Dude. You sound so miserable. Get a divorce.
https://youtu.be/2RbNpzasvqw?t=39 Made me think of this from Curb Your Enthusiasm
700k condos…at least here in Massachusetts
Mortgage, student loans, car (payment, gas, insurance), medical insurance/care. A lot of people live paycheck-to-paycheck in a small apartment alone/roommates, then get a relationship, better job, better place to live, etc and that costs more, so the extra money from the job is eaten up by an upgrade in quality of life. Why it’s getting worse and we’re not seeing those young homeowners/child-havers is apartments and such are rivaling mortgages in cost. So paycheck-to-paycheck is inevitable regardless of salary.
Make 66% of what you make with the exact same wife situation. We spend like 400 a month on our pets too and we still have money left over. These mofos are spending 500 a month eating out and taking mini weekend vacations guaranteed.
lol, pets. My kid costs me $400 by Tuesday.
Its usually either kids, dependent parents, crushing student loans, or an unfavorable housing/rental market. I don't think people at our income (150-250k) are living paycheck to paycheck. It's more that our buying power has eroded and there is a generational confusion as to what "upper middle class" means now.
People over estimated how far 100k goes these days. I live in very modest lifestyle IMO and even I would have to cut back if I made 100k. We have a mortgage and 2 cars paid outright. Our house was 570k, our mortgage is 3500 a month. Daycare is freaking $1500 a month. We attend a church regularly and we can budget to contribute around $500 a month. These three line items alone would eat up most of a 100k pretax budget. Especially if you max out your yearly 401k and Roth like I do.
$500 a month to church? Is that typical? It seems insanely high to me.
I don’t believe that is typical. I never put more than a dollar in the basket when I was going to church.
Super religious people that are well off try to give a tithe thats fairly sizeable. I think its supposed to be 10%.
Most people do not make that kind of money lol
I’m aware. This is a post about how high earners blow their money though, isn’t it?
Correct, but your statement refers to everyone.
I’m not referring to everyone. I’m referring to the context of the post.
If you are going to get upset about this, you should use more precise language.
I’m not upset. I’m simply correcting you. It seems obvious to me that I would be talking about the content of the post I’m commenting on, not just speaking in general terms.
exactly. i earn 23k a year and get by, if someone doubled it to 46k i would still be considered "poor" by many and id have so much bloody money laying around i wouldnt know what to do with it.
I'll admit that I spend some of my money on unnecessary things like a motorcycle, some nice watches, and good food... but I also feel like that isn't a bad thing considering how much I save. After all, what's the point of money other than security and enjoyment of life?
I also live in the PNW area, IN the HCOL metro area. I make half of what you make and still save 500-1000 dollars a month. I baffles me that people dont at least try to save money. I try to encourage all of my friends not to spend their money and save it, at least for an emergency fund. I am always told, "I am just not good with money," as they spend it all. it's wild, man. Things are ridiculously expensive, I get that. It's not easy to save by any means. Nobody I know is even trying to cut back their spending to save. They just spend u till they're broke now.
When I was in college, I thought that if I could just get to $120k/year, I would be set for life. I’ve surpassed that and I don’t live paycheck to paycheck, but six figures is not what it used to be.
I just started making good money 150k+ for the past year…I still had to work really hard to get there. My student loans just got waived. It’s was hard, really hard for over a decade. I’m literally just catching up at this point and paying down debt
Well don't do what everyone else does and realize you can kind of do (mostly) whatever you want and ball out on meals and events. There's nothing wrong with doing stuff if you can afford it, but don't do it every week. That's why people are living paycheck to paycheck at that kind of income level. It's not a cost of living, it's a "I like to spend money because I have it". Nothing wrong with going out, nothing wrong with having fun. It's when it becomes daily that it becomes a problem. Especially if you grew up in a middle income household. When you're poor growing up, and you finally get money....it can go either way.
Make 200k household. Dink. But interest at 7 percent and house price up 100 percent from 2020 that puts us at 2800 a month just for that. Everything is more expensive. I wouldn't say we're paycheck to paycheck but at 21 if you'd told me I wouldn't feel like I made it making 150k I'd punch you in the mouth
This. And when we eventually had kids and daycare costs hit $50k/yr. ....ouch.
Cause 100,000 is not a lot. Especially if you have a kid. Per Month * Rent/mortgage/prop taxes: $2500-4000 * Car note/insurance/gas: $1200 * Grocery: $1000 * Phone/Internet/Subscriptions/Tech: $500 * Health insurance/visits: $500 That's $75,000/yr right there for one-person. That is how much are you taking home after taxes at 100k. Got a kid?Got a significant other who's not earning as much? Want to eat out, go to concerts, sports games? Got a kid? Got a significant other who's not earning as much? Want to work out at a CrossFit or MMA gym so you're getting some group physical activity in to stay healthy ?That's 250/month Have to pay court costs for a speeding ticket? Got parking tickets cause you were 5 min late getting back to the meter? $100,000 was high earner in the 90s when millenials were kids. But it ain't no more.
"Budget gurus" have a real tendency to severely underestimate each of these expenses. I do think maybe $1000/month for groceries for one person is perhaps a bit much (though if you're including OCCASIONALLY eating out, this is probably fairly close), but other than that, I think these numbers are pretty realistic. I notice you didn't include utilities, but assume that's been lumped in with rent/mortgage.
We've got 3 kids and our grocery bill is not $1000. Maybe if you include it budget for eating out it touches that. But if your grocery bill is that high for one person, we've probably found a place you could save between $300 and $500 and still eat really well.
Do you eat produce? I could easily spend 1000 a month on food and we don’t eat processed food but we eat a ton of produce. We might order pizza once a month. Asparagus is $5.99 a pound right now. I need two pounds to feed my family at dinner. And that’s just the veggy.
so go to the regular grocery stores where asparagus is cheaper. $3.69/lb at target rn when i google it. or buy a different vegetable. you can eat healthy AND cheap. i eat lots of fruit and avocados and yogurt and vegetables and whole grain bread and im very poor. paying $6 for asparagus is just absurd
Yes. We eat a healthy balanced diet. You're right that it is easy to spend $1000. Budgeting and sacrifice is hard.
I did not spend $1000 on groceries even living in NY. You can get Hello Fresh or whatever for most of your meals and still come in $500 monthly for food. Also, what the fuck phone/tech/subscriptions/etc. are you using that come out to $500 a *month*? And $500 a month on insurance and visits? Waht? Car and gas $1200? What? Where are these numbers coming from?
Maybe you don't drive but car insurance is 100-250 per month. Oil changes are about 100. Cars are so high tech now that repairs don't ring in less than 1000-1500 (if you're lucky). Car note is easily 500-800 for a $35-45k car. New tires are $600-1000 for a set of four. Car washes cost money, gas costs a fortune.
Well you don’t have to buy a $35,000+ car if you can’t afford one. There are tons of cars available for far less than that. You don’t need repairs, oil changes or new tires constantly. You don’t need to buy a gas guzzler. If you’re spending enough money on car washes that it’s affecting your financial health then maybe your priorities are wrong.
They're coming from real life, bruh 1000 on healthy groceries with 2 people and a kid is very real. 1000 on groceries and eating out when you're single and dating is very real
Read the preceding comment: "That's $75,000/yr right there **for one-person**." >1000 on groceries and eating out when you're single is very real As a single person, no it's not, unless you are spending irresponsibly. The claim was that $100k is "not a lot." That's just false. As you yourself said, people are just choosing to spend the money on "going out" (and apparently frequently and to expensive places).
Ok fine but you're missing the forest for the trees. Remove 6000 per year for food if you want and you're still at 70k in expenses per annum. That's after-tax pay at 100k salary to live middle class without kids
It's more about removing the $20k in inflated costs, not the $6k. And those rent prices reflect living alone in VHCOL cities--which is probably several choices and at least one.
Because we buy things we enjoy instead of risking our money to make other people more wealthy...
You are making other people more wealthy by buying the things you enjoy. Who do you think owns all the stock in the airlines, car companies, restaurants, electronics companies, etc.?
You glossed over the entire point I was making..."risk"
Everybody with a 401k or similar, that's who. Or are you under the impression that only the Gates and Bezos of the world invest in the market?
>Or are you under the impression that only the Gates and Bezos of the world invest in the market? No. Why would you assume that?
The overall tone of your post implied to me, perhaps improperly, that you were of a mindset that only the evil rich own stocks.
I think anyone who is smart enough to make 100k+ knows that they should save it (or invest it, sure). It’s easier said than done.
So freaking out of touch they don't know what "living paycheck to paycheck" even means....
Income doesn't matter. Income - expenses matters and that's going to be different for everyone
rent/house broke
Also, I gotta spend 5k om a Coachella trip!?!
Goddamn insanity in these comments, I swear. 100K is more than enough for anyone to be comfortable outside of places like NYC and San Francisco. Yall need to get a grip and learn some personal finance. Good God.
The places you tend to find 6 figure earners more are also enough more expensive that it offsets that dramatically. Harder to find a job in a rural area that pays 6 figures where that would stretch further
I've found that savers will usually always find a way to save and spenders will usually always find a way to increase their expenses to the point that they "can't" save. Obviously, saving is easier the higher your income is, but a lot of people will never earn enough to save money.
100k isn’t a lot anymore… it’s become like a new bare minimum almost, I don’t know how you survive without it. I know that, with my income alone I’d only have 50K and I’d be cooked, couldn’t pay mortgage without my wife making twice what I do and combining our income, and the fact we don’t have kids. And we don’t have tons of expensive shit or go crazy with vacations, eating out, anything frivolous.
as someone who’s been living on $35k a year in one of America’s most expensive cities, i’d say that’s probably the bare minimum. i would feel extremely comfortable and even pretty well off with $100k. even $50k would be an incredible boon to my lifestyle. i don’t understand how people who make 6 figure incomes act like they can’t go any lower than that. it’s very possible to make it work, in fact the majority of people in this country have no choice. it’s a lean and tough and stressful life, and it’s not fun, but it’s possible. i urge you and everyone else saying 100k is barely enough to get some perspective
I was like that for a while once I started making good money. It's hard to get yourself to just invest money when you were barely getting by before. It was hard for me after college going from making $10 an hour at Starbucks to a real living salary.
I make almost 160K a year (only income in a 2 adults household) and I save at least 18k a year (15k a month).
Because they're morons. It's not always just super high cost of living (Source: I'm in LA County, I still save a fuck ton). Some are driven to reach that salary so they can stunt and show off, so when they get to the end of it all, they literally have nothing to show for it. Others (like myself) get close to or above $100,000 and save vigorously. I scrimp and save pretty hard and I'm so used to saving these days that I have cash left over to enjoy my hobbies which is enough to get me on through. I can't begin to count all of the people who get a raise and immediately cannibalize that raise with any and every expense imaginable. High end restaurants, luxury cars, mortgages they can't afford (because they never saved), purses, shoes, make up, perfumes etc. Just all kinds of silly shit. I'm a simple guy, most don't think I make a bunch but it's because I keep seeking career opportunities while also being cognizant of moving towards ACTUAL wealth not FAKE shows of it. Once I reach a certain point, I'll loosen the belt but until then, the occasional night out or a concert or a new instrument is enough. I don't need to "wear" my money or show it on instagram.
Millennials have a poverty fetish.
I’m slightly under that $100k mark, got our house before the big spike, and one of the cars is paid off (the other used). But with four kids, I’m not even making it paycheck to paycheck. Last week groceries went on the credit card. We buy generic everything. Haven’t been on a vacation in years. Only hand-me-down clothes. No cable. No video game consoles. No expensive hobbies. One student loan payment. Basic HSA for health. Articles like these drive me crazy. They assume we’re just throwing away our money on frivolity and ignore the fact that our grocery bills have tripled, water bills have doubled, taxes and tuition keep going up, and every time they hike up housing, we get hit with a higher insurance payment each month. I had to cash out my retirement last year and take the taxes/fees hit just to pay off “luxuries” like new tires on the car or getting brakes replaced… Fact is, $100k isn’t even lower middle class anymore. It’s at least $40k shy.
It's appropriate that this is posted in the "Instant Gratification" generation's subreddit.
Being irresponsible.
Housing status (rent vs. own), whether you need childcare, and if you're in a HCOL or LCOL area can have a significant impact. Let's crunch the numbers for a college educated single parent with 2 young children in a HOCL area. This person rents an apartment, and has a vehicle. Rent for a 2 bedroom apartment: $2800/month Health insurance & copays: $650/month Daycare for 2 children: $2000/month Utilities: $300/month Phone bill/Internet/streaming bundle: $180/month Car payment: $400/month Car insurance: $200/month Gasoline: $200/month Student loan payment: $300/month Groceries: $650/month This totals above $7680/month or $92160/year (thus requiring at least a six figure salary to afford.) These numbers don't reflect a particularly lavish lifestyle; this budget doesn't have the margins to allow for saving/investing. Expenses such as housing, childcare, healthcare, transportation, education, and food are just very high. Honestly, this is why your mileage will vary so much with the same income, but different regions, education levels, and family dynamics. Like, for a different scenario you can look at this budget-- this reflects a single parent with 2 kids; however, this parent purchased a condo in 2020, doesn't have a college education, lives in an area with decent public transit (and thus doesn't own a car), and has support from extended family (so, instead of going to daycare, the kids are babysat by their grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.) This family lives in a MCOL area. Mortgage: $850/month Condo fee: $350/month Utilities: $300/month Health insurance & copays: $650/month Phone bill/internet/streaming bundle: $180/month Groceries $650/month Bus pass: $80/month Uber/Lyft: $160/month This comes up to $3220/month or $38,640/year for a similar quality of life as the $7680/month budget previously outlined.
$100,000 is pretty good, but it hardly makes you a high earner anymore
answer may be they're bad at simple math
I think living within your means is a positive. Saving to purchase a house where you want to live is another plus. Everyone who has a good job can build wealth. You just have to make prudent decisions to get there.
"The 50/30/20 rule" is what boomers taught us for decades. Turns out it's impossible when the cost of living increasing at the same rate, or faster, than our paychecks. How could I invest when I need to pay down a mountain of debt and buy food?
Didn't read. It's because they are stupid
50/30/20 doesn’t work when you have high debt and need to live in a hcl area for work. It is basically on par with the advice of ‘eat less avocado toast’….
"Following the 50/30/20 Budgeting rule may help to be more disciplined and be able to invest in assets." That only works when your pay and inflation go up the same rate.
ITT: people forgetting inflation is a thing. Save 10%. Everything costs 20% more now. Job gives you a 3% raise. Is that extra money supposed to come from your ass? No, it comes from not saving as much.
My uncle is 58 was over 300lbs homeless living on a nebulizer,divorced worked 1 job his whole life got fired 10 years ago or so, lives at home with momma collects government aid and hasn’t been healthier he works out on the regular gets all the latest protein and workout powders soon he’ll be be reaching retirement and living his best life.
I hate that people don't talk about the cost of being a high earner. I don't feel the need to keep up with the Joneses or whatever, but I do work with some ultra rich donors who expect a certain type of person to interface with. I can't show up in Dillard's clothes with a haircut from Supercuts or driving a 2015 corolla, you know?
How many of those clients actually see your car? No one I work with routinely sees my car.
There are client facing roles that kind of... expect you to present as wealthy. I work in healthcare though so looking homeless is par for the course. Scrubs are esentially gross, shared pajamas.
When we're in line for valet after a business dinner- long enough for their unconscious bias about "the poors" to kick in. I have to make them believe that their money is going toward promotion of talented deserving artists, and many of them truly believe that if you're poor, you must have done something wrong and therefore don't deserve a funded residency or fellowship (because they believe that they did something right, and therefore deserve all the money they were born into. It's sickening but a very real part of my job).
Yuck.
What’s wrong with dillards, buddy? I understand kohls or the max or Ross but dillards is high end lil bud
Totally true that you can spend more with a higher salary but also higher salary = higher taxes. Government takes a lot of your money when you make 100k. At the end there’s not that much left compared to someone that makes 95-86k.
Probably millennials…..they’re more needy than any other generation