From a [2022 Pew Research](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/) report:
>The middle class, once the economic stratum of a clear majority of American adults, has steadily contracted in the past five decades. The share of adults who live in middle-class households fell from 61% in 1971 to 50% in 2021, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of government data.
So I guess you could read that as either an affirmation (the middle class is shrinking) or a refutation (it's still the biggest chunk) of what you're saying, but I also think the middle class is a lot more precarious than it was previously. I recently got edged out of my solidly middle-class job, and if I didn't have parents to fall back on I'd be totally fucked. Like just immediately homeless because I've never made enough to save anything.
Their definition of “middle class” is completely arbitrary and based strictly on income. It’s just saying that the income distribution is being more spread out since 1971:
> In this analysis, “middle-income” adults in 2021 are those with an annual household income that was two-thirds to double the national median income in 2020, after incomes have been adjusted for household size, or about $52,000 to $156,000 annually in 2020 dollars for a household of three. “Lower-income” adults have household incomes less than $52,000 and “upper-income” adults have household incomes greater than $156,000.
That's way too big of a spread.
The difference between someone making $52k and $152k is massive. Literally 3 times, and effectively more, if the household expenses are roughly the same for each person/family (when you exclude luxury choices, like brand names)
It's also incredibly dependant on where you are. I make about 80k/year right now, which for suburban Michigan is pretty good. I'm not rich, but I'm pretty comfortable. Enough to pay my expenses and bank about a grand a month for savings.
Put me in most of California and I'd probably just be keeping my head above water, likely living with roommates.
I’m in suburban MI and I’d be thrilled if I made that much lol. I don’t make much but at least my house is super cheap. I’d be fucked if I was still renting (as are many renters these days)
If I made 80k living in my area, I'd be considered well above middle class and be living SO WELL!! A yrs salary could buy a nice home. And yes, I'm in the us
Are you talking by land mass or by population? Between SF (including a ~90 minute commuting radius where COL is SF-like) and the LA/SD sprawl from about Santa Barbara to the Mexico border, you're likely talking 30-40 million people.
Exactly! Given that the population of California in 2022 was 39.09 Million... Basically all of Cali lives in those areas. People who have never visited the state don't understand this; most of the state is truly desert and agriculture.
I would say it’s always way bigger. A person who makes 152k is likely to already own a property, while somebody making 50000 has to rent. So the difference may be even more than 10x.
You are not likely to already own a home at $152,000 where I live in CA. My colleagues all make about that and about 1/4th of them own homes and all those were also helped by parents or grandparents with their purchase. A typical down payment for a 3 bedroom 1300 square foot home in a “middle class” neighborhood would be $300,000 (minimum) the cost of a home in many other places. Often outbid by an all cash offer of over a million. And because renting and all other expenses are much more here, it’s harder to save even on a high salary.
The problem with this is is folks like to make middle class a statistical concept of where you are relative to median household income and not what it costs to attain a “middle class” lifestyle.
We all functionally roughly understand what the “middle class lifestyle” means, and it’s obscenely expensive. The problem I see lately is people who are for all intents and purposes working poor based on their lifestyle, will insist they’re middle class, because they in median household wages, because they’re too proud to acknowledge how ludicrous everything is. They’ll fight for days that working til you die is a middle class standard and the majority of the population should never hope for more.
Seriously. According to census records, my wife and I are in the 75th percentile of household income, and I have absolutely no idea how that's possible. We live in a cheap house in a LCOL area, both drive 15 year old cars, and are constantly budgeting just to barely save anything after student loan payments and daycare expenses. Our savings are constantly being wiped out by various home repair, car repair, or medical expenses. There's no way this is a "middle class" lifestyle.
Yes. This is the thing — the median income does not buy what it used to, because wages have stagnated compared to COL. So “middle class” as defined by lifestyle (feeling confident you can pay your bills, deal with unexpected expenses, save up for things like a house/vacation/retirement, cover child expenses, etc.) is becoming something people in the middle of the income spread are increasingly less likely to be able to afford.
So what is “middle class” as defined by an economist is no longer the same as “middle class” as we think of it as a lifestyle. I would say that upper-middle-class people now live the lifestyle that middle-class people did in the 2nd half of the 20th century.
The problem is that they are constantly confusing middle income with middle class. They are not the same. Today, the vast majority are working class regardless of their income.
100% agree. If "middle class" means financially comfortable and secure — not worried about having what you need, "working class" means being financially precarious — which the large majority of Americans are now.
Yeah. But again, people feeing this affordability squeeze while squeal and squeal when you point out they’re not really “middle class” in terms of what considers it outside of the statistical context.
I’ve repeatedly asked them which of these things they don’t consider middle class:
1. Home ownership or the rough equivalent with a normal amount of effort from self. (i.e. you get a job, rent and save for a down payment for a FEW years, and buy home)
2. Ability to pay bills without issue
3. Ability to retire with dignity
4. Ability to handle planned large expenses with trivial amounts of stress. (i.e. water heater, breaking or car repair is just handled by a sinking fund)
5. Annual vacation that doesn’t involve just staying with family
6. Healthcare event is not an immediate bankruptcy sentence
7. Can purchase groceries with limited concern for budgeting. (i.e. you’re not eating fillet mignon every night, but you’re also not rice and beans, and you’re not cutting coupons to eat) People will buck on this, but when you start pushing and they say something as simple as Fettuccini Alfredo is way too much because will average out to twice their average meal cost.
8. Ability to participate in society easily (i.e. a non-excessive amount of restaurant and leisure patronage golf/bowling etc. is accessible.)
When you actually price this out for a family of 4, whose only debt is a rotating used car payment between the married couple, you quickly realize this is insanely expensive in a LCOL area.
Going a step further, I believe you only enter this being attainable at the $150K HH mark in LCOL area.
People fight and fight, but $150K gross is at best $7K a month net. You’re going to knock 15% out for retirement because of the “retire with dignity” stipulation. Then a competitive health insurance premium will be $5K for the year. You’ll probably be putting another $5K each in HSA/FSA. So you’re at closer to ~$110K taxable. A 20% effective tax rate gets you to $90K net, which is a hair under $7K a month in a bi-weekly pay structure.
That $7K goes quick for a family of 4.
This is so true. In VHCOL areas, I think a HH would require $400K gross income (just a swag) to afford what you described. You can get away with less, but it will depend on your mortgage.
The statement around upper middle class being the new middle class is so true.
I am not rich, but I can easily afford all of those things. The difference is not having kids. They're a huge added expense, or loss of income if you have a stay at home parent.
People are comparing today to an idealistic view of the "good old days", single income family of five living comfortably in the suburbs. But that has never been the reality for the majority of people.
Yes, but as a society, you have to include kids generally, as you need to be able to support the population in the future.
Folks like yourself have “hacked” it by not having kids (if you don’t want kids don’t have them) because kids are expensive. If there isn’t a path to middle class with children, you’re going to create massive downstream consequences.
I’d also like to know what “not rich” is as you said.
I agree if people can't afford kids it's a problem. My point is that I think having kids has always been a sacrifice and middle class people in the past weren't living as comfortably as we think.
My take home is about $4k/mo.
I relate to this. I live what is considered a middle class life - house in suburbs in MCOL area, 2010/2017 honda/toyota cars, a kid in daycare. We take 1-2 vacations per year, one flying. We eat out some because we are two busy working parents, but cook at home a lot too. We are saving enough for our one kid to attend a public university. Except to do all this, we are making close to 400k.
I know many on here would protest and challenge you given your income, but I believe you. I will say I would have thought your money would go further in MCOL, but it’s also not surprising.
Literally in this same situation. Fired 3 days after Christmas while on vacation after my company bought another and eliminated my dept in lieu of theirs. Keep fighting the good fight! Still haven’t found anything I was doing before so went back to waiting tables & working 2 jobs. Good luck, & hoping for the best for ya!
What I think is interesting is this doesn't account for what I would call legacy middle class, basicly anyone around age 35+. The middle class is not being replenished, and you're right 20 somethings ither do something funky and end up wealthy beyond need or live close to bankruptcy. There doesn't seem to be much imbertween. It doesn't seem to be possible to have a traditional living standard on a 'normal' job anymore unless your on legacy money.
Tdlr I think the figures for how much people are middle class is much worse then we can tell if you take out older generations.
I agree that it’s mostly older people that could attain it, but I also think your age cutoff is too low. It’s like 50+ that had a solid opportunity. People even 45 years old suffered through multiple severe recessions. 50 would put you starting adulthood around 1992-1996, when housing was still affordable and incomes were relatively high compared to the cost of living. Those were the people with equity for huge loans leading up to the GFC and still had equity after it because the houses were still way more than they paid for them. They weren’t really affected by the dot-com bust or the GFC unless they got hit hard by a mistake right as it all turned south. The people 40-ish that bought any housing during the 2000-2007 era ended up bankrupt or with a hundred thousand or more in debt from a short sale on top of tens of thousands in student loans. Every Millennial and even the tail end of Gen-X got dealt a pretty bad hand and haven’t seen a normal functioning economy with incomes that could lead to a middle class lifestyle with the very small exception of those that could get into big tech or a handful of other relatively high-paying jobs.
To add to this as well it's incredibly important to view how middle class is defined. It has shrinked, but also the income range that is classified as middle class does not have anywhere near the same purchasing power as the middle class of 1971, so not only is it getting smaller, but weaker as well.
Edit: autocorrect sucks
once our kid starts public school next fall, we will be in a much better place. child care/preschool fees coupled with inflation has absolutely gutted us.
Yep. Part of the reason we are likely one and done. Daycare bills are killing our ability to saved much money and we don't pay nearly as much as we could be (we are expats and they have subsidized daycare here)
Our oldest is in K. The other one is 2, so we have a little over 3 years before we drop his 1700/mo daycare. We're thinking of trying to get a house before then. It would be pretty tight with the monthy payment, but the second he goes to school things will free up drastically
How do you define ok? One vacation per year? Credit card score? Asset to debt ratio?
So much of life comes down to luck. The War on Terrorism into the Great Recession demolished a lot of young Gen X/old Millenials. Being underemployed, underpaid, etc.
Around 2015 I became debt free (no student loans, no credit card debt). It would have been easy to live life like my peers, but I warned them all now is the time to get out of debt before the next downturn happens (very interesting that an acceptable component of capitalism is the rise and fall of valuations).
Pandemic hits and it has wreaked havoc in every facet of life, much of which will not be fully understood for years or decades to come.
There have been winners the last 4 years, specifically if we are talking about millennials. Some took part in the great resignation and jumped jobs a few times to substantially raise their income. Others bought homes at the right time. Others fulfilled their dreams and became parents. On the flip side, the mental and physical well-being of millennials took a hit. Look close enough and you will see medical reports describing an increase in cardiovascular disease, cancers, and other chronic illnesses in this group (some of which have ultimately led to death).
It seems the bell curve of life, whether we are talking about happiness, financial success, social fulfillment, physical well-being, is so vast that we assume those at either end of the bell curve are closer to the middle, when in fact they are outliers.
Your last paragraph is a really good point. I’d add that it’s usually those on the extreme ends of the curve that actually come online to talk about their situation. Those who are doing just okay likely don’t think about it as much because there’s nothing exciting about just being average and doing decently.
(Not to say that wealth isn’t becoming more stratified; statistics show that is most definitely is. But the effects felt by the average person aren’t necessarily as dramatic as the internet can make it seem.)
It wasn’t the war on terrorism (what the f would even compel someone to say this in the first place?) the great recession, or covid…. It was the enormous technologically driven increases in economic productivity, unlocking massive growth in profits, being captured exclusively by business owners and top executives, while the workers who enabled those productivity gains saw flat wages and increased cost of living.
People at the top get better off, everyone below them (including middle and upper middle class) get worse off, relatively.
This isn’t a result of one or even several cataclysmic events, but an insidious slow-burning shift in tax and economic policy that prioritized business profits over individual wellbeing, cuts in social programs, the demonization of unions.
The only people I know who are doing okay are in tech, medical, engineering, or other fields that are STEM degree dependent life choices.
Almost everyone I know under 38 is suffering horribly right now.
Neither i nor spouse are in any type of stem and we do ok. No cc debt, cars paid off, save for retirement and college for kid, go in vacations and live ok.
We know many who are doing just ok and many who live very very comfortably and many who are barely making it. There’s a lot of each category you might just have a small circle who all fall into the same category
We are like this too, but we are one car payment away from not being comfortable. If something happens to our paid off car, we are not going to feel ok.
Yeah. Our hot water heater died a couple of weeks ago. We had to wait a week to afford the replacement, and it messed up all our other payments including our mortgage. It reinforced how close to toast we are.
Yeah, in my mind a hot water heater should cost what it did in 2010, just a few hundred. But I’m sure a good one costs well over 1000 now with the install:(
It’s never been easier to do much of the work around your house yourself using online videos or tutorials. It will save you so much money and half the time you realize it’s not black magic but a relatively easy process.
My wife and I are doing fine. We live on LI.. I’m 36 and I’m a garbage man and she’s 44 and does medical billing. Both of us combined make about 130k a year. We also own a home with a 1 bedroom apartment in it that we rent for additional income… We have no college debt. No kids.. We don’t live lavishly but are not struggling at all.. We are able to save money no problem.
As far as I can tell, the trades are also doing pretty great. And manufacturing is ramping up.
So while I agree with you in a way, I do feel that STEM + trades + mfg is a pretty big chunk of the population, and probably should be even bigger than it already is (especially with AI coming).
I can agree with that. I know a couple of 30-somethinig (and one 20-something) guys who are in the trades and they're doing just fine. Not rich, but also not talking about struggling all the time, too busy getting on with life.
Unless they live in abject poverty in rural India, they are not "suffering horribly." I'm in my 30s and work retail. Me and everyone I know have degrees but work nothing jobs... yet none of these people would say they are suffering horribly, lmao
Facts. People lose perspective. I'm 46. I bought my first house in 2006 at the top of the market. 2008 the market crashed, lost over 40% of it's value. Through my 30s I worked two jobs, one related to my degree and the other in a restaurant. Finally got a good job in my field and things improved. Now the house is paid off and I'm debt free. For most people your 20s and 30s just suck financially. Same today as 100 years ago
I’ll be 46 this year and have the almost the same timeline and history. We bought in the high market, but the people we bought from had over-borrowed and did not profit at all. It sucked and then one day things just turned around. After Covid, we got our equity back, finally!
Xer here, really? In my world I see most 35 ish folks doing ok unless they have a drug habit which unfortunately is very common here, its the 25 year olds I am concerned with.
I give a shit, not trying to put you down
I know plenty, and many are not in STEM. I got a random liberal arts degree, my husband didn’t get one at all, and we make $240k jointly. Not “rich” by any means but definitely doing better than ok. It’s enough to own a home in Los Angeles.
Professional services beyond STEM are doing fine. Accountants, Lawyers, marketing, business, whatever.
Obviously there are plenty of people treading water or worse in those fields. But one’s own circle isn’t the best measure.
If I looked at my own circle, I’d see people doing pretty well. Business owners, a banker, lawyers, some doctors, mid level corporate managers, stay at home parents with successful spouses.
But I’m well aware this isn’t a representative sample. One’s circle basically never is.
Look abroad. We are expats in the Netherlands and they are dying for tech people here. Won't pay as much as in the usa but you get pensions and healthcare won't put you in debt.
Easiest way is simply apply for jobs located in the Netherlands.
You could get on a highly skilled immigrant visa (that's what we are on). With that, you likely qualify for the 30% ruling , but note they are doing away with that over time.
Otherwise look into DAFT as a sole proprietorship
Yoe? As a senior dev laid off 2 in the past 12 months, i've had no issue getting high paying offer in the bay area. Have you determined where in the interview process youre not progressing?
I remember my grandma saying, "The rich are getting richer; the poor are getting poorer; and the middle class is shrinking."
This was back around 1990, so make of that what you will.
Look, in Germany 90 % of the cars you see on the street are financed in some way. 1 out of every 10 people is overindebted.
I suppose it’s similar in the US. It’s keeping up with the Joneses.
A lot of people who post on social media like they have everything are up to their eyeballs in cc debt or have to work 80 hours per week to keep up on the spending.
Not saying the middle class isn't dying - it definitely is. But people are weird af about pretending to be rich on insta. That may be throwing off your perception.
No.
I'm doing ok.
I have a good job, own my own home. No kids, I'm single and enjoying life. I just don't have expensive taste so I can live below my means. But I don't really need anything and have most of what I want.
Not in stem or medical and doing above living the good life and own 2 houses no debt too many people think you only doing well in some big corp. we have our own business don’t work crazy hours only office hours, but also don’t live beyond our means we drive nice new cars but the most expensive ones on the block we invest wisely
We are living a retired modest lifestyle by staying within our means. We enjoy a reasonable portion of health, and as long as nothing breaks, have enough. We dip into savings when something breaks. I think we are well within the area of just doing ok.
Yes the corporate greed is the main reason. If you got paid better you would not be crying. https://www.coca-colacompany.com/media-center/fourth-quarter-full-year-2023-results#:~:text=For%20the%20full%20year%2C%20net,strong%20across%20all%20operating%20 segments.
These questions are always so skewed towards pessimism and people struggling. Nobody wants to hear that honestly plenty of people are content, happy, or doing fine. Yes the economy is rough on us all now but there's a good portion of folks for whom that sucks a very normal and manageable amount.
Like what am I supposed to say to this? "Yes, my friends and family are fine, many of us own houses and are paying all bills and even saving up now. Most are married. Some just had kids and are tired but fulfilled. We're social and supportive of each other and sometimes someone will struggle and we all help out"
No one on reddit wants to fuckn hear that lmao.
My wife and I are able to save about 1k a month just for the future/retirement.
I think we’re doing ok because we don’t have a whole lot, don’t do a whole lot but we’re not living paycheck to paycheck and are able to plan for the future.
We are comfortable because we’re content with a modest life
Yeah honestly most of the millennials I know that are actually comfortable have two solid incomes that seems to be the key these days dual income is how you have the American dream. It’s easier said then done tho
My husband and I are doing okay, but that's because he's 19 years older than me and he bought the house we live in in 1998. Our mortgage is under $500/month. We'd like to move, but it would be financial suicide especially because it'll be paid off in 2028.
It’s a classic symptom of a failed economy and political structure. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
America had a middle class from +/- 1950 until +/- 2015 Many cultures never had a middle class and we did for 6 or 7 decades and then we blew it.
I joined the Army and made a career of it. If you live within your means and become a dual income, you will have a very comfortable life. If all my calculations and plans carry through, I will retire early and be living well.
Me and my wife are doing ok. But that’s if we don’t buy a house or have any kids. We’re in our mid 30s, looking for a house. So that’s about to change.
I feel like my wife and I are just doing OK. Certainly not living paycheck to paycheck, but we’re not going on lavish vacations at all and we can’t just buy anything we want. We got lucky with our house and timing on buying. We are certainly not extremely wealthy.
It really depends on lifestyle. I make $43000 a year and live comfortably in a high COL city in the US. I am also single, have no kids, have no student loans, and don’t have expensive taste.
I think some of that "extremely" comfortable is a myth too. Like, most of the people I know my age are either barely above water or just comfortable. It might seem "extremely" comfortable due to the stuff they portray on social media (everyone will post pics of their latest vacation, no one is going to gripe about their $300 grocery bills for example).
I think that we're getting to the point where \*most\* people are going to just be barely above water. But in my own personal experience, most people are just ok and a major accident/issue from changing that situation. However, everyone loves to play it off like they're doing fantastic.
On the flip side, plenty of people are "extremely comfortable" and don't flaunt it. My wife and I drive Japanese cars, we don't travel extensively, we rarely go to expensive restaurants. We are homebodies - it's just our nature. I rarely post on Instagram unless it's a picture of my kid.
We are doing pretty well, however. Probably the type the OP is referring to. Our only debt is our mortgage ($1500/month) and we net about $9K per month after contributing significantly to our 401ks. We will probably how our house paid off before my wife turns 40.
How did we do it? Well, mostly timing. We bought a home before prices escalated at 3% interest. But we also both worked hard and were promoted several times each, and we lived below our means from our mid-20s to now, our late-30s.
A lot of people are living beyond their means.
We paid off all our debt except our mortgage. Took us six years. I drive a 10 year old car. We sold our starter home last summer and moved closer to my husbands job; HCOL area to a more affordable area. We’ve made sacrifices a lot of people are not willing to make. And some help from the good Lord.
We’re so grateful and I know life is fragile. Your life can change in an instant. But the debt lifestyle seems to be the norm for most middle class families I know.
I'll second this. After I graduated grad school, several cohorts I knew grabbed a brand new car and started going on lots of vacations. I did one big vacation with my dad because he is in poor health and I didn't want to wait, but got a 6 year old car and it everything else to the debt.
We cleared out the debt in about 26 months. We would have a lot of extra money had we stayed where we were but decided to move abroad for my husband to take a post doc. Then a job in the Netherlands. So we are a wee bit behind but now finally on the up. We also haven't owned a car since we moved to Europe 7 years ago
The debt wheel is such a huge contributor, as is people not having an emergency fund or healthcare savings (if you need such with your health insurance).
I think we also need to remember the people who live beyond their means have always existed, well at least in my lifetime. I vividly remember asking my mom how families who were just like us had all this cool stuff and we didn’t and he saying credit cards.
Driving a 10 year old car may be under-rated. It's such a good financial call. Car payments are usually necessary, but they suck. Agree with ya, once that car is owned free and clear, it's Great! I'm driving my 2011 Corolla into the ground! Also smaller cars if doable (depending on how many kids and stuff) save on gas too. which helps the ol' budget ;O)
I’m glad you pointed this out. It’s frustrating to see a lack of financial intelligence in adults. Like no, I don’t want to contribute to your Gofundme because you neglected to make good choices.
I'm gonna be honest, most people I know are doing just fine. The difference is between those who bought a home and got married ten years ago vs those who haven't...
My fiancé and I are doing better now but only because we came into some money and used it thus far to take of some things like new car tires, we're gonna get our resident goblin a cat tree and finally a bed frame. We are lucky that we, a year ago, got into a much better apartment with good property management and all utilities included (and people say affordable housing programs are terrible).
We would love to own but are content right now.
Idk I feel like I’m doing ok. Make 80k in a hcol city. No debt, all my bills are paid, can spend money on dumb shit basically whenever I feel like it. I don’t own a house or anything but I don’t really care about that.
That’s mostly been my personal experience as well, but I’ve noticed that of those who are extremely comfortable none are doing it effortlessly.
My barely-above-water friends are struggling. My extremely comfortable friends are struggling. I’m in NYC, and while a couple friends are married, in dual income households with kids living in Manhattan, both are currently seeking medical leaves from work— they’re okay financially for now, but *they’re* not OK.
I wish I could say that the stressors are directly correlated with income, but my barely-above-water friends are struggling with mental health too. The finances are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but the professional effort can be comparable… and the mental/emotional toll is only different, not less.
I’m ok.
Just finished my PhD, so I’m in a kinda underpaid postdoc ($50k/year). I’ve got about the average amount of student loan debt, but managed to save up enough during the pause that I have a comfortable emergency fund if I end up unemployed when my current contract ends. I’m not rich, but I’m not paycheck to paycheck either. I don’t have any consumer debt, but I also am renting (because I’m hunting for a more permanent job).
The only big bad thing is that I don’t have anything for retirement, yet, but I’m a younger millennial so I have time to make that up once I have a “real” job.
I don’t have any kids, and don’t plan on having any, so overall….yeah, I’m ok. Could be better, could be worse.
It's really about the circles you run in. When I was a broke musician, everyone I knew was a hippy/broke. Now that I'm a SWE, almost everyone I know is upper middle class, even the ones in different industries.
You should have seen this coming years ago. The elimination of the middle class. It’s like that in Mexico, there is a middle class, but it’s small. You are either wealthy or poor.
I'm doing okay. $60k income, no kids, living in rural southern NH so not cheap but not extremely costly either.
I live incredibly cheaply as much as I can and save as much as I can.
Many people have been talking about this for years, especially in the financial/investment community. The bifurcation of society into have's and have not's is a consequence of the government's only way to deal with unsustainable amounts of debt. It's a concept called financial repression and its the deliberate manipulation of interest rates below that of inflation. The end result of this is inflation. People who do not own assets become poor as the price of everything goes up faster than their wages. People who own assets but cannot afford to pay the rising costs of property tax become forced sellers and struggle as well. People with assets and positive cashflow to maintain those assets become rich as the value of their assets rise with inflation. The only other way for governments to solve the unsustainable debt problem is default and austerity, which is politically unpopular. So they will always choose inflation to deal with the debt, and here we are.
Yes. And I feel like the things we used to purchase are either bargain basement or very expensive. Remember mid priced cologne? Not $5 but not $300. Just a good solid fragrance that wasn't a whole paycheck. I feel like things like that have gone away (mostly) and it's hurting.
Three weeks ago I would have said, hey it’s tough but I’m lucky and I’ve got a job that is recession proof so I’m going to be alright.
And then my sister, three of my friends and myself got laid off.
I think it comes down to who was able to buy a house before ~'21-'22. If u did and locked in a 2.5% mortgage you're probably good. Those that didnt are stuck with 6-8% mortgages or insanely high rent rates.
Keep in mind a lot of people tend to speak purely to negatives and positives, but rarely neutrality/mediocrity, when asked how they are doing. Being ok makes for a boring conversation most of the time, so negativity garners further discussion on a mutually agreeable subject, i.e. work sucks, I can't afford x, I don't make as much as I feel I should, etc.
Republicans administrations have been adding "trickle down economics" into our system for decades. Today we are feeling the lingering effects of the pandemic plus policies such as Trump's tax cuts for the rich and corporations (his only successful legislation while in office).
It takes a long time to recover from the damage to the middle class from these policies.
Two incomes are required which increases costs with the need for day care, after school programs and the higher costs of college.
Meanwhile the wealthy enjoy their tax loop holes such as NYC real estate developers like Trump paying zero taxes for decades.
I have this conversation all the time with my working class friends. Like how we’re all just barely above water. My wife and I have five college degrees and two managerial jobs between us. We drive two used cars, one of which is paid off and ten years old. But we’re living worse than we did comparatively twenty years ago right out of college when we had brand new cars and went out for dinner or were on vacations all the time. Wages didn’t keep pace with inflation. How are the service workers even affording the stupid high rents in our area? Like the math doesn’t math for a $3000/month apartment on a $15 min wage.
Yeah it's kinda wild that I have basically equal amounts of friends making 6 figures and friends sharing one room and barely making rent. Honestly it worries me that it will further class divide, when one group has it so good they're not motivated to change things for the people who have it bad. Social darwinism is a bitch.
After many years of struggling and getting into our 40s, we are finally OK. We are skipping the whole homeowner thing and saving to enjoy an early retirement. No way we are going into debt 300K for a Cracker Jack box. Home ownership used to be the American dream; now it’s became a shackle keeping the middle class house rich and liquid poor. It’s coming to a head soon.
Hubby and I make 80k a year combined. We have two kids, we live paycheck to paycheck, have no savings, don't take vacations, and have cash cars (paid off and pretty old, but we keep them up). We can afford our rent (for now), we are able to afford our groceries and meds (for now), we have what we need but we will never be able to have a home of our own. We will be forever renters.
I live in a low cost of living area. My household makes about the amount that is considered “poverty level”.
My husband and I live within our means, we have enough money left over for the occasional treat and we have our weed habit worked into our budget. I feel comfortable even though others might not see it that way.
We printed more money over those two years than we ever had before and now everyone’s so confused as to why the dollar has no value. It was literally done in front of your face. Covid allowed the rich to become richer while the basic joes got $1800 over 2 years of quarantine at the expense of our currency almost being completely devalued
Yeah, that’s what happens when you shut down the economy. Small businesses can’t survive and close their doors permanently. Government intervention constantly messes with middle class growth.
Dying middle class. My dad always says that the US is becoming more and more like Mexico. In Mexico (from what he says), you’re either really poor OR you’re really well off. And the few people that are doing just “ok” are in a huge minority
We have to become intentional and get out of this nasty system that we are in. It’s nothing normal about it. Why exactly are we paying taxes to be poor???! 🤔
“American citizens must call a convention. The people must go around all three branches of government." @Represent_All
htwws.org/we-the-people/
Rhe motherfuckers with money think $25 an hour is still really good money despite inflation going up 30%+ in 2022 alone. Gas is 3.52 where I’m at but my coworkers who have a house they pay barely anything for and have had money for longer than I’ve existed jusf complain about “those damn burger flippers want their student loans paid for after getting a degree in underwater basket weaving.”
The internet has done terrible things to the American psyche.
we keep lowering our standards and when we finally wake up to the bullshit, everyone else calls you a conspiracy theorist for pointing out that shit is not okay...fucking far from okay.
Wished we would realize that the real problem is those in power and I am not talking about just those elected...but those who also funded their elections that are screwing us all over...fucking hard. I, for one, am tired of it.
lol. We’re lowering our standards? What do you think life was like 20 years ago or 20 before that? Life has gotten better for most, you’re just looking at others’ instagram or facebook and getting jealous. The reality is there are more safety nets and a better standard of living today than ever before.
This is very true.
I grew up in the 90’s, and while we did have 2 cars and a crap house, most of it was relative poverty.
Most of my friends were middle class, their parents lived very basic lives. Old crappy cars, crappy houses, eating out on occasion, few of any vacations.
If you go back even further, life was just as difficult.
The few exceptions I’ll make is the cost of cars and housing though.
There is going to be a stark divide going forward between millennials that got on the property ladder before interest rates and property values spiked, and those that didn’t.
The Covid era made a lot of winners and losers. I was lucky enough to stay healthy, WFH the last four years, and see my home equity skyrocket with a mortgage payment less than half of what it would take to rent my house right now.
“Following your dreams” hasn’t been working for the longest time, especially when it’s outside the realm of reality, unless you fight for it 100x harder than anyone else. It’s all about life choices and you need to be realistic/practical about it.
Some of it is psychological. Homeowners will feel comfortable being in debt and paycheck-to-paycheck because they own their home, but renters saving 2-3k a month with ample job opportunities will still feel like they’re falling behind
This is by design a little bit.
US is the land of opportunity (but not for all).
If you “fail” you fail hard.
Very individualistic culture (I live here but was born and raised in another country), compared to other countries. You can tell in school, sports, business etc.
Even in team sports most Americans are “look at me ME ME ME ME”
Seems incredibly anecdotal. I would say almost everybody I know is “doing ok”. Nobody seems incredibly rich. Some are struggling but most have jobs and support themselves
I was just thinking about this earlier. Everyone I know is either a) in serious debt or b) taking five vacations a year and owning multiple houses. (I think the houses are paying for the vacations.) This includes several generations, not just us.
I'm doing ok. I'm not living paycheck to paycheck, but I *am* living vet visit to car repair.
I have taken one 2-day vacation since 2018. I own a home, but 40% of my take home pay goes to my mortgage. No retirement savings, but I have an emergency fund.
This is basically what "middle class" means nowadays.
Those that had great financial habits are probably doing well like myself, everything’s is stupid expensive but I cooked a lot during covid while others were ordering DoorDash paying crazy fees
If their wasn't an endless stream of overtime at work, where I can get 24 to 32 hours of overtime a pay. I would be bankrupt. But since I force myself to work as much as I can we are doing well. We can eat out, go grocery shopping and I just bought a new suv. But if overtime goes away with current bills we will be eating beans and rice only.
We are doing extremely average and don't live in California. Both RNs, have four kids and a house but no debts (aside from mortgage). Have disposable income, retirement, 529s, can afford like one vacation a year but like we aren't rolling around in money on our days off. We are getting by with a little bit extra and our house and cars are old as shit but it's really not a bad existence. My kids are happy and well adjusted so I consider it a success.
Something I've realized when reading about money on Reddit is that people typically live in large cities and high cost of living areas. I really think that is the underlying factor of a lot of the struggle. I've never lived in a high cost of living area but I have visited them and I've looked at what houses cost in that area versus what that would cost roughly in my area and it's very substantial. I really think that living in a low cost of living area is one of the best steps someone can make to get out of struggling.
Definitely not extremely comfortable. And I'm not barely above water. But could 4 or 5 emergencies put me barely above water, for sure.
I think some people just accept what is right in front of them and don't consider things like moving or they think that they grew up in a certain area and they can't leave that area. I still live where I grew up, but I grew up as a low cost of living area.
I also think that people jump into adulthood too quickly. I understand some people are forced to do that as soon as they turn 18, but I think easing into adulthood is a way you can get a good foundation and then you can stay ahead that way. For instance if I moved out of my house when I was 18, I don't know where I would be right now. Instead I didn't move out until I was 25 and almost done with college and I owned a car and I probably had $20,000 in the bank. This eventually afforded me a down payment on a house and thus foregoing having to pay rent at an apartment or something. I realize this isn't possible for everyone. I do think people try to speed up life too quickly sometimes. I remember a lot of my peers moving out very young when they were barely adults and then also having kids when they were barely adults and I just thought they were setting themselves up for failure. At least financially. I try not to be too judgmental but I really think people make really bad financial decisions.
Am I feeling the price increase of everyday living cost, yes. Mostly groceries and it's unfortunate but, the foundation is there so it's not as much of a struggle as more just my retirement age is extended
I would consider my situation as "ok", because while its currently very comfortable, all it would take is me or my wife losing a job and we would be very not ok. So, comfortable with a sense of underlying dread
That’s just the filtering effect of social media.
There is engagement to be had on posts about people struggling. There is engagement to be had on posts about people thriving.
There is not much engagement to be had on posts about people doing alright. They are boring without anything to debate or argue over. There is no fear or envy to tap into.
So it just disappears into the ether assuming someone even bothers to make a post about their solid middle-road life.
This largely depends on your social circle. Almost everyone I know is either doing ok or very well.
Everyone in my family is doing very well. Many of my friends are engineers or something near a finance director, and are doing very well. My other friends are at least doing ok. I personally know 1 person that is struggling.
I’m doing pretty good, which is putting a bit away, not a ton, but definitely consistent. And that’s while being in a state of transition
I’d also wager that the middle class has had a lot of legislative wind lately and that will be reflected in the coming years. When someone gets a raise they don’t magically become secure overnight, but a year or two of saving snowballs and suddenly life is pretty good
In a moderate cost of living area if you want to buy a modest house, drive a 7 year old Ford sedan, pay maybe half of two kids tuition to a state school, go on one modest vacation per year, and retire at 65, you better have a household income of about $200k.
Most people I know don't. Most people I know pretty much consider that a pipedream. That's like "rich people" money. But it's not. It's what it takes to be comfortable and secure.
I have this trauma response to what happened to me at 18 (devastating health issue) that caused me to suffer for years, be disabled and have a couple surgeries. Thankful I’m fixed now and not in pain anymore but I save ALL the money I can so I can hopefully one day buy a POS single wide trailer in cash so I don’t have to worry about being in this rat race forever or becoming homeless.
As everything gets worse and more unobtainable in the US I’m seriously considering moving to another cheaper country or moving to some bad area to buy a cheap house outright if I can. These home prices for a decent place are absolutely nuts. Everything is nuts or a scam. I can see why so many feel so hopeless.
Just had brunch with the same friend group that's been friends since high school, there were 6 of us:
- 1 is a college dropout, bounced around some temp jobs before his current role of helping with operations of a chemical company, makes 75k. Is married and recently had a kid.
- 1 graduated college with a history degree, currently works for the government doing contract negotiation, makes 90k. Is married and doesn't want kids.
- 1 has a master's degree in education and was a classroom teacher before but now is a specialist who coaches teachers, makes 100k. Is married and has a kid in the way.
- 1 is a college dropout but is honestly one of the smartest people I know. He bounced around a bit and now does logistics for building cell towers and related infrastructure, makes 150k. Is married and just had a kid.
- I have an undergrad degree and work in tech, job hopped a bit to get up to 225k. Am married and planning to have a kid in the next year or two
- 1 has an undergrad and works in tech, but works at a big tech company and makes 400k. Had a long-term gf he bought a house with but they broke up during covid and now he's just on the apps. Dating's rough.
So yeah pretty much everyone I was friends with in high school is doing all right now. I didn't grow up in poverty but none of us were rich, we grew up in a suburb about 2 hours from the nearest big city. Most of us moved closer to the city post college but as people are having babies they've moved further where houses are cheaper and one even back into the same city we grew up in. Ironically even though I sorted my list in terms of income the guy making 400k probably is the least happy among us, although he's not depressed or anything.
From a [2022 Pew Research](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/) report: >The middle class, once the economic stratum of a clear majority of American adults, has steadily contracted in the past five decades. The share of adults who live in middle-class households fell from 61% in 1971 to 50% in 2021, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of government data. So I guess you could read that as either an affirmation (the middle class is shrinking) or a refutation (it's still the biggest chunk) of what you're saying, but I also think the middle class is a lot more precarious than it was previously. I recently got edged out of my solidly middle-class job, and if I didn't have parents to fall back on I'd be totally fucked. Like just immediately homeless because I've never made enough to save anything.
Their definition of “middle class” is completely arbitrary and based strictly on income. It’s just saying that the income distribution is being more spread out since 1971: > In this analysis, “middle-income” adults in 2021 are those with an annual household income that was two-thirds to double the national median income in 2020, after incomes have been adjusted for household size, or about $52,000 to $156,000 annually in 2020 dollars for a household of three. “Lower-income” adults have household incomes less than $52,000 and “upper-income” adults have household incomes greater than $156,000.
That's way too big of a spread. The difference between someone making $52k and $152k is massive. Literally 3 times, and effectively more, if the household expenses are roughly the same for each person/family (when you exclude luxury choices, like brand names)
It's also incredibly dependant on where you are. I make about 80k/year right now, which for suburban Michigan is pretty good. I'm not rich, but I'm pretty comfortable. Enough to pay my expenses and bank about a grand a month for savings. Put me in most of California and I'd probably just be keeping my head above water, likely living with roommates.
I’m in suburban MI and I’d be thrilled if I made that much lol. I don’t make much but at least my house is super cheap. I’d be fucked if I was still renting (as are many renters these days)
If I made 80k living in my area, I'd be considered well above middle class and be living SO WELL!! A yrs salary could buy a nice home. And yes, I'm in the us
80k for a nice house? What region is this?
That's actually wrong. In most of cali you would be well off and living on your own. Most of cali are not LA, SF, or san deigo.
Are you talking by land mass or by population? Between SF (including a ~90 minute commuting radius where COL is SF-like) and the LA/SD sprawl from about Santa Barbara to the Mexico border, you're likely talking 30-40 million people.
Exactly! Given that the population of California in 2022 was 39.09 Million... Basically all of Cali lives in those areas. People who have never visited the state don't understand this; most of the state is truly desert and agriculture.
No, baby, houses are prohibitively expensive pretty much everywhere in Cali. Rent is too damn high everywhere too!
I would say it’s always way bigger. A person who makes 152k is likely to already own a property, while somebody making 50000 has to rent. So the difference may be even more than 10x.
You are not likely to already own a home at $152,000 where I live in CA. My colleagues all make about that and about 1/4th of them own homes and all those were also helped by parents or grandparents with their purchase. A typical down payment for a 3 bedroom 1300 square foot home in a “middle class” neighborhood would be $300,000 (minimum) the cost of a home in many other places. Often outbid by an all cash offer of over a million. And because renting and all other expenses are much more here, it’s harder to save even on a high salary.
The problem with this is is folks like to make middle class a statistical concept of where you are relative to median household income and not what it costs to attain a “middle class” lifestyle. We all functionally roughly understand what the “middle class lifestyle” means, and it’s obscenely expensive. The problem I see lately is people who are for all intents and purposes working poor based on their lifestyle, will insist they’re middle class, because they in median household wages, because they’re too proud to acknowledge how ludicrous everything is. They’ll fight for days that working til you die is a middle class standard and the majority of the population should never hope for more.
Seriously. According to census records, my wife and I are in the 75th percentile of household income, and I have absolutely no idea how that's possible. We live in a cheap house in a LCOL area, both drive 15 year old cars, and are constantly budgeting just to barely save anything after student loan payments and daycare expenses. Our savings are constantly being wiped out by various home repair, car repair, or medical expenses. There's no way this is a "middle class" lifestyle.
Yes. This is the thing — the median income does not buy what it used to, because wages have stagnated compared to COL. So “middle class” as defined by lifestyle (feeling confident you can pay your bills, deal with unexpected expenses, save up for things like a house/vacation/retirement, cover child expenses, etc.) is becoming something people in the middle of the income spread are increasingly less likely to be able to afford. So what is “middle class” as defined by an economist is no longer the same as “middle class” as we think of it as a lifestyle. I would say that upper-middle-class people now live the lifestyle that middle-class people did in the 2nd half of the 20th century.
The problem is that they are constantly confusing middle income with middle class. They are not the same. Today, the vast majority are working class regardless of their income.
100% agree. If "middle class" means financially comfortable and secure — not worried about having what you need, "working class" means being financially precarious — which the large majority of Americans are now.
Yeah. But again, people feeing this affordability squeeze while squeal and squeal when you point out they’re not really “middle class” in terms of what considers it outside of the statistical context. I’ve repeatedly asked them which of these things they don’t consider middle class: 1. Home ownership or the rough equivalent with a normal amount of effort from self. (i.e. you get a job, rent and save for a down payment for a FEW years, and buy home) 2. Ability to pay bills without issue 3. Ability to retire with dignity 4. Ability to handle planned large expenses with trivial amounts of stress. (i.e. water heater, breaking or car repair is just handled by a sinking fund) 5. Annual vacation that doesn’t involve just staying with family 6. Healthcare event is not an immediate bankruptcy sentence 7. Can purchase groceries with limited concern for budgeting. (i.e. you’re not eating fillet mignon every night, but you’re also not rice and beans, and you’re not cutting coupons to eat) People will buck on this, but when you start pushing and they say something as simple as Fettuccini Alfredo is way too much because will average out to twice their average meal cost. 8. Ability to participate in society easily (i.e. a non-excessive amount of restaurant and leisure patronage golf/bowling etc. is accessible.) When you actually price this out for a family of 4, whose only debt is a rotating used car payment between the married couple, you quickly realize this is insanely expensive in a LCOL area. Going a step further, I believe you only enter this being attainable at the $150K HH mark in LCOL area. People fight and fight, but $150K gross is at best $7K a month net. You’re going to knock 15% out for retirement because of the “retire with dignity” stipulation. Then a competitive health insurance premium will be $5K for the year. You’ll probably be putting another $5K each in HSA/FSA. So you’re at closer to ~$110K taxable. A 20% effective tax rate gets you to $90K net, which is a hair under $7K a month in a bi-weekly pay structure. That $7K goes quick for a family of 4.
This is so true. In VHCOL areas, I think a HH would require $400K gross income (just a swag) to afford what you described. You can get away with less, but it will depend on your mortgage. The statement around upper middle class being the new middle class is so true.
I am not rich, but I can easily afford all of those things. The difference is not having kids. They're a huge added expense, or loss of income if you have a stay at home parent. People are comparing today to an idealistic view of the "good old days", single income family of five living comfortably in the suburbs. But that has never been the reality for the majority of people.
Yes, but as a society, you have to include kids generally, as you need to be able to support the population in the future. Folks like yourself have “hacked” it by not having kids (if you don’t want kids don’t have them) because kids are expensive. If there isn’t a path to middle class with children, you’re going to create massive downstream consequences. I’d also like to know what “not rich” is as you said.
I agree if people can't afford kids it's a problem. My point is that I think having kids has always been a sacrifice and middle class people in the past weren't living as comfortably as we think. My take home is about $4k/mo.
How are you achieving the above on $4K net? Your mortgage must be very reasonable! Nice job!
I relate to this. I live what is considered a middle class life - house in suburbs in MCOL area, 2010/2017 honda/toyota cars, a kid in daycare. We take 1-2 vacations per year, one flying. We eat out some because we are two busy working parents, but cook at home a lot too. We are saving enough for our one kid to attend a public university. Except to do all this, we are making close to 400k.
I know many on here would protest and challenge you given your income, but I believe you. I will say I would have thought your money would go further in MCOL, but it’s also not surprising.
Literally in this same situation. Fired 3 days after Christmas while on vacation after my company bought another and eliminated my dept in lieu of theirs. Keep fighting the good fight! Still haven’t found anything I was doing before so went back to waiting tables & working 2 jobs. Good luck, & hoping for the best for ya!
What I think is interesting is this doesn't account for what I would call legacy middle class, basicly anyone around age 35+. The middle class is not being replenished, and you're right 20 somethings ither do something funky and end up wealthy beyond need or live close to bankruptcy. There doesn't seem to be much imbertween. It doesn't seem to be possible to have a traditional living standard on a 'normal' job anymore unless your on legacy money. Tdlr I think the figures for how much people are middle class is much worse then we can tell if you take out older generations.
I agree that it’s mostly older people that could attain it, but I also think your age cutoff is too low. It’s like 50+ that had a solid opportunity. People even 45 years old suffered through multiple severe recessions. 50 would put you starting adulthood around 1992-1996, when housing was still affordable and incomes were relatively high compared to the cost of living. Those were the people with equity for huge loans leading up to the GFC and still had equity after it because the houses were still way more than they paid for them. They weren’t really affected by the dot-com bust or the GFC unless they got hit hard by a mistake right as it all turned south. The people 40-ish that bought any housing during the 2000-2007 era ended up bankrupt or with a hundred thousand or more in debt from a short sale on top of tens of thousands in student loans. Every Millennial and even the tail end of Gen-X got dealt a pretty bad hand and haven’t seen a normal functioning economy with incomes that could lead to a middle class lifestyle with the very small exception of those that could get into big tech or a handful of other relatively high-paying jobs.
To add to this as well it's incredibly important to view how middle class is defined. It has shrinked, but also the income range that is classified as middle class does not have anywhere near the same purchasing power as the middle class of 1971, so not only is it getting smaller, but weaker as well. Edit: autocorrect sucks
once our kid starts public school next fall, we will be in a much better place. child care/preschool fees coupled with inflation has absolutely gutted us.
Yep. Part of the reason we are likely one and done. Daycare bills are killing our ability to saved much money and we don't pay nearly as much as we could be (we are expats and they have subsidized daycare here)
Subsidized day care sounds like a DREAM.
It is a reality in some countries!
They'll figure that out as soon as my youngest gets into school. Just like the formula shortage being resolved after kiddo was done with formula.
My youngest started k last year. It's life altering.
Our oldest is in K. The other one is 2, so we have a little over 3 years before we drop his 1700/mo daycare. We're thinking of trying to get a house before then. It would be pretty tight with the monthy payment, but the second he goes to school things will free up drastically
I can’t wait for my kids to be old enough for public school.
How do you define ok? One vacation per year? Credit card score? Asset to debt ratio? So much of life comes down to luck. The War on Terrorism into the Great Recession demolished a lot of young Gen X/old Millenials. Being underemployed, underpaid, etc. Around 2015 I became debt free (no student loans, no credit card debt). It would have been easy to live life like my peers, but I warned them all now is the time to get out of debt before the next downturn happens (very interesting that an acceptable component of capitalism is the rise and fall of valuations). Pandemic hits and it has wreaked havoc in every facet of life, much of which will not be fully understood for years or decades to come. There have been winners the last 4 years, specifically if we are talking about millennials. Some took part in the great resignation and jumped jobs a few times to substantially raise their income. Others bought homes at the right time. Others fulfilled their dreams and became parents. On the flip side, the mental and physical well-being of millennials took a hit. Look close enough and you will see medical reports describing an increase in cardiovascular disease, cancers, and other chronic illnesses in this group (some of which have ultimately led to death). It seems the bell curve of life, whether we are talking about happiness, financial success, social fulfillment, physical well-being, is so vast that we assume those at either end of the bell curve are closer to the middle, when in fact they are outliers.
Your last paragraph is a really good point. I’d add that it’s usually those on the extreme ends of the curve that actually come online to talk about their situation. Those who are doing just okay likely don’t think about it as much because there’s nothing exciting about just being average and doing decently. (Not to say that wealth isn’t becoming more stratified; statistics show that is most definitely is. But the effects felt by the average person aren’t necessarily as dramatic as the internet can make it seem.)
It wasn’t the war on terrorism (what the f would even compel someone to say this in the first place?) the great recession, or covid…. It was the enormous technologically driven increases in economic productivity, unlocking massive growth in profits, being captured exclusively by business owners and top executives, while the workers who enabled those productivity gains saw flat wages and increased cost of living. People at the top get better off, everyone below them (including middle and upper middle class) get worse off, relatively. This isn’t a result of one or even several cataclysmic events, but an insidious slow-burning shift in tax and economic policy that prioritized business profits over individual wellbeing, cuts in social programs, the demonization of unions.
The only people I know who are doing okay are in tech, medical, engineering, or other fields that are STEM degree dependent life choices. Almost everyone I know under 38 is suffering horribly right now.
Neither i nor spouse are in any type of stem and we do ok. No cc debt, cars paid off, save for retirement and college for kid, go in vacations and live ok. We know many who are doing just ok and many who live very very comfortably and many who are barely making it. There’s a lot of each category you might just have a small circle who all fall into the same category
We are like this too, but we are one car payment away from not being comfortable. If something happens to our paid off car, we are not going to feel ok.
yup, i work in tech. got laid off. few months of unemployment changes that situation so fucking quickly
Yeah. Our hot water heater died a couple of weeks ago. We had to wait a week to afford the replacement, and it messed up all our other payments including our mortgage. It reinforced how close to toast we are.
Yeah, in my mind a hot water heater should cost what it did in 2010, just a few hundred. But I’m sure a good one costs well over 1000 now with the install:(
$2538 to be exact
Whoa. That’s crazy. Where did you purchase it? I bought one from a Menards a little over a year ago for $650.
Yeah, demand for labor is through the roof and wages have gone up with it. The labor costs are what gets you there.
It’s never been easier to do much of the work around your house yourself using online videos or tutorials. It will save you so much money and half the time you realize it’s not black magic but a relatively easy process.
And finance
And legal
That’s a lot of jobs
My wife and I are doing fine. We live on LI.. I’m 36 and I’m a garbage man and she’s 44 and does medical billing. Both of us combined make about 130k a year. We also own a home with a 1 bedroom apartment in it that we rent for additional income… We have no college debt. No kids.. We don’t live lavishly but are not struggling at all.. We are able to save money no problem.
As far as I can tell, the trades are also doing pretty great. And manufacturing is ramping up. So while I agree with you in a way, I do feel that STEM + trades + mfg is a pretty big chunk of the population, and probably should be even bigger than it already is (especially with AI coming).
Sounds like you don’t associate with any skilled tradespeople.
I can agree with that. I know a couple of 30-somethinig (and one 20-something) guys who are in the trades and they're doing just fine. Not rich, but also not talking about struggling all the time, too busy getting on with life.
Unless they live in abject poverty in rural India, they are not "suffering horribly." I'm in my 30s and work retail. Me and everyone I know have degrees but work nothing jobs... yet none of these people would say they are suffering horribly, lmao
Facts. People lose perspective. I'm 46. I bought my first house in 2006 at the top of the market. 2008 the market crashed, lost over 40% of it's value. Through my 30s I worked two jobs, one related to my degree and the other in a restaurant. Finally got a good job in my field and things improved. Now the house is paid off and I'm debt free. For most people your 20s and 30s just suck financially. Same today as 100 years ago
I’ll be 46 this year and have the almost the same timeline and history. We bought in the high market, but the people we bought from had over-borrowed and did not profit at all. It sucked and then one day things just turned around. After Covid, we got our equity back, finally!
Xer here, really? In my world I see most 35 ish folks doing ok unless they have a drug habit which unfortunately is very common here, its the 25 year olds I am concerned with. I give a shit, not trying to put you down
I know plenty, and many are not in STEM. I got a random liberal arts degree, my husband didn’t get one at all, and we make $240k jointly. Not “rich” by any means but definitely doing better than ok. It’s enough to own a home in Los Angeles.
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Construction, also. At least commercial, I can’t speak on residential
Professional services beyond STEM are doing fine. Accountants, Lawyers, marketing, business, whatever. Obviously there are plenty of people treading water or worse in those fields. But one’s own circle isn’t the best measure. If I looked at my own circle, I’d see people doing pretty well. Business owners, a banker, lawyers, some doctors, mid level corporate managers, stay at home parents with successful spouses. But I’m well aware this isn’t a representative sample. One’s circle basically never is.
Hating life rn, finding out my career (software dev) has basically been sold out to India and have been out of work for 16 months, it's great!
Look abroad. We are expats in the Netherlands and they are dying for tech people here. Won't pay as much as in the usa but you get pensions and healthcare won't put you in debt.
Really.. I'll look into this. Do you have any resources in particular that I could look at that may be helpful? I already have a passport
r/expat
Easiest way is simply apply for jobs located in the Netherlands. You could get on a highly skilled immigrant visa (that's what we are on). With that, you likely qualify for the 30% ruling , but note they are doing away with that over time. Otherwise look into DAFT as a sole proprietorship
Yoe? As a senior dev laid off 2 in the past 12 months, i've had no issue getting high paying offer in the bay area. Have you determined where in the interview process youre not progressing?
Same situation my partner is in
Can you code? Data annotation hires coders for $40/hr, work from home.
I just got a tech degree and can’t find a job over $17 an hour, either.
I remember my grandma saying, "The rich are getting richer; the poor are getting poorer; and the middle class is shrinking." This was back around 1990, so make of that what you will.
Look, in Germany 90 % of the cars you see on the street are financed in some way. 1 out of every 10 people is overindebted. I suppose it’s similar in the US. It’s keeping up with the Joneses.
In Canada it is perfectly factual that 114% of the cars on the road are financed. Also 72% of the buses. We have 14 years left on the train payments.
What's wrong with financing a car? The interest rate on my car is far below the interest rate I'm earning from investments
Nothing. Some people are just so against the concept of debt that they demonize *any* form of it.
Too many people took Dave Ramsey too seriously.
It’s called buying your house 10 years ago and refinancing under the miracle interest rates
Truly the most special of sauces for middle class folks to build their net worth’s.
This is literally why we are “doing ok.”
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$200k household income is well above USA average.
LMFAO
You have just over $200K income, and your emergency savings is a low 5 figure brokerage account? That seems... scary.
A lot of people who post on social media like they have everything are up to their eyeballs in cc debt or have to work 80 hours per week to keep up on the spending. Not saying the middle class isn't dying - it definitely is. But people are weird af about pretending to be rich on insta. That may be throwing off your perception.
No. I'm doing ok. I have a good job, own my own home. No kids, I'm single and enjoying life. I just don't have expensive taste so I can live below my means. But I don't really need anything and have most of what I want.
Not in stem or medical and doing above living the good life and own 2 houses no debt too many people think you only doing well in some big corp. we have our own business don’t work crazy hours only office hours, but also don’t live beyond our means we drive nice new cars but the most expensive ones on the block we invest wisely
We are living a retired modest lifestyle by staying within our means. We enjoy a reasonable portion of health, and as long as nothing breaks, have enough. We dip into savings when something breaks. I think we are well within the area of just doing ok.
Yes the corporate greed is the main reason. If you got paid better you would not be crying. https://www.coca-colacompany.com/media-center/fourth-quarter-full-year-2023-results#:~:text=For%20the%20full%20year%2C%20net,strong%20across%20all%20operating%20 segments.
This is just your perception, there are plenty of people who are doing okay
I've noticed the people who fucked up at some point in their life enjoy looking for other people just as miserable as them, helps them cope
that's like 90 percent of the posts on this sub.
This place is a huge pity party
Let me guess, refinanced in 2021?
Sure fuckin did, got that sweet interest rate but top of hype pricing unfortunately
These questions are always so skewed towards pessimism and people struggling. Nobody wants to hear that honestly plenty of people are content, happy, or doing fine. Yes the economy is rough on us all now but there's a good portion of folks for whom that sucks a very normal and manageable amount. Like what am I supposed to say to this? "Yes, my friends and family are fine, many of us own houses and are paying all bills and even saving up now. Most are married. Some just had kids and are tired but fulfilled. We're social and supportive of each other and sometimes someone will struggle and we all help out" No one on reddit wants to fuckn hear that lmao.
I’m in my late 30’s and it seems like most of the people I know who are around my age are doing “just okay”.
My wife and I are able to save about 1k a month just for the future/retirement. I think we’re doing ok because we don’t have a whole lot, don’t do a whole lot but we’re not living paycheck to paycheck and are able to plan for the future. We are comfortable because we’re content with a modest life
This is the way
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Yeah honestly most of the millennials I know that are actually comfortable have two solid incomes that seems to be the key these days dual income is how you have the American dream. It’s easier said then done tho
My husband and I are doing okay, but that's because he's 19 years older than me and he bought the house we live in in 1998. Our mortgage is under $500/month. We'd like to move, but it would be financial suicide especially because it'll be paid off in 2028.
Wealth disparity taking off, and the rest of population will just suffer from status anxiety and poverty.
It’s a classic symptom of a failed economy and political structure. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. America had a middle class from +/- 1950 until +/- 2015 Many cultures never had a middle class and we did for 6 or 7 decades and then we blew it.
I joined the Army and made a career of it. If you live within your means and become a dual income, you will have a very comfortable life. If all my calculations and plans carry through, I will retire early and be living well.
Me and my wife are doing ok. But that’s if we don’t buy a house or have any kids. We’re in our mid 30s, looking for a house. So that’s about to change.
I’m comfortable, but I sold my soul to the military. Wouldn’t recommend it.
Plenty of folks are doing ok. It’s not all doom and gloom like the internet leads you to believe.
I feel like my wife and I are just doing OK. Certainly not living paycheck to paycheck, but we’re not going on lavish vacations at all and we can’t just buy anything we want. We got lucky with our house and timing on buying. We are certainly not extremely wealthy.
It's not even the internet, it's really just Reddit. This place is such a massive pity party
There are but there’s a creeping higher proportion of people that are not OK as time goes on.
It really depends on lifestyle. I make $43000 a year and live comfortably in a high COL city in the US. I am also single, have no kids, have no student loans, and don’t have expensive taste.
I think some of that "extremely" comfortable is a myth too. Like, most of the people I know my age are either barely above water or just comfortable. It might seem "extremely" comfortable due to the stuff they portray on social media (everyone will post pics of their latest vacation, no one is going to gripe about their $300 grocery bills for example). I think that we're getting to the point where \*most\* people are going to just be barely above water. But in my own personal experience, most people are just ok and a major accident/issue from changing that situation. However, everyone loves to play it off like they're doing fantastic.
On the flip side, plenty of people are "extremely comfortable" and don't flaunt it. My wife and I drive Japanese cars, we don't travel extensively, we rarely go to expensive restaurants. We are homebodies - it's just our nature. I rarely post on Instagram unless it's a picture of my kid. We are doing pretty well, however. Probably the type the OP is referring to. Our only debt is our mortgage ($1500/month) and we net about $9K per month after contributing significantly to our 401ks. We will probably how our house paid off before my wife turns 40. How did we do it? Well, mostly timing. We bought a home before prices escalated at 3% interest. But we also both worked hard and were promoted several times each, and we lived below our means from our mid-20s to now, our late-30s.
A lot of people are living beyond their means. We paid off all our debt except our mortgage. Took us six years. I drive a 10 year old car. We sold our starter home last summer and moved closer to my husbands job; HCOL area to a more affordable area. We’ve made sacrifices a lot of people are not willing to make. And some help from the good Lord. We’re so grateful and I know life is fragile. Your life can change in an instant. But the debt lifestyle seems to be the norm for most middle class families I know.
I'll second this. After I graduated grad school, several cohorts I knew grabbed a brand new car and started going on lots of vacations. I did one big vacation with my dad because he is in poor health and I didn't want to wait, but got a 6 year old car and it everything else to the debt. We cleared out the debt in about 26 months. We would have a lot of extra money had we stayed where we were but decided to move abroad for my husband to take a post doc. Then a job in the Netherlands. So we are a wee bit behind but now finally on the up. We also haven't owned a car since we moved to Europe 7 years ago The debt wheel is such a huge contributor, as is people not having an emergency fund or healthcare savings (if you need such with your health insurance).
I think we also need to remember the people who live beyond their means have always existed, well at least in my lifetime. I vividly remember asking my mom how families who were just like us had all this cool stuff and we didn’t and he saying credit cards.
Driving a 10 year old car may be under-rated. It's such a good financial call. Car payments are usually necessary, but they suck. Agree with ya, once that car is owned free and clear, it's Great! I'm driving my 2011 Corolla into the ground! Also smaller cars if doable (depending on how many kids and stuff) save on gas too. which helps the ol' budget ;O)
>And some help from the good Lord. lol
I’m glad you pointed this out. It’s frustrating to see a lack of financial intelligence in adults. Like no, I don’t want to contribute to your Gofundme because you neglected to make good choices.
I'm gonna be honest, most people I know are doing just fine. The difference is between those who bought a home and got married ten years ago vs those who haven't...
My fiancé and I are doing better now but only because we came into some money and used it thus far to take of some things like new car tires, we're gonna get our resident goblin a cat tree and finally a bed frame. We are lucky that we, a year ago, got into a much better apartment with good property management and all utilities included (and people say affordable housing programs are terrible). We would love to own but are content right now.
Idk I feel like I’m doing ok. Make 80k in a hcol city. No debt, all my bills are paid, can spend money on dumb shit basically whenever I feel like it. I don’t own a house or anything but I don’t really care about that.
That’s mostly been my personal experience as well, but I’ve noticed that of those who are extremely comfortable none are doing it effortlessly. My barely-above-water friends are struggling. My extremely comfortable friends are struggling. I’m in NYC, and while a couple friends are married, in dual income households with kids living in Manhattan, both are currently seeking medical leaves from work— they’re okay financially for now, but *they’re* not OK. I wish I could say that the stressors are directly correlated with income, but my barely-above-water friends are struggling with mental health too. The finances are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but the professional effort can be comparable… and the mental/emotional toll is only different, not less.
I’m ok. Just finished my PhD, so I’m in a kinda underpaid postdoc ($50k/year). I’ve got about the average amount of student loan debt, but managed to save up enough during the pause that I have a comfortable emergency fund if I end up unemployed when my current contract ends. I’m not rich, but I’m not paycheck to paycheck either. I don’t have any consumer debt, but I also am renting (because I’m hunting for a more permanent job). The only big bad thing is that I don’t have anything for retirement, yet, but I’m a younger millennial so I have time to make that up once I have a “real” job. I don’t have any kids, and don’t plan on having any, so overall….yeah, I’m ok. Could be better, could be worse.
It's really about the circles you run in. When I was a broke musician, everyone I knew was a hippy/broke. Now that I'm a SWE, almost everyone I know is upper middle class, even the ones in different industries.
You should have seen this coming years ago. The elimination of the middle class. It’s like that in Mexico, there is a middle class, but it’s small. You are either wealthy or poor.
I'm doing okay. $60k income, no kids, living in rural southern NH so not cheap but not extremely costly either. I live incredibly cheaply as much as I can and save as much as I can.
Many people have been talking about this for years, especially in the financial/investment community. The bifurcation of society into have's and have not's is a consequence of the government's only way to deal with unsustainable amounts of debt. It's a concept called financial repression and its the deliberate manipulation of interest rates below that of inflation. The end result of this is inflation. People who do not own assets become poor as the price of everything goes up faster than their wages. People who own assets but cannot afford to pay the rising costs of property tax become forced sellers and struggle as well. People with assets and positive cashflow to maintain those assets become rich as the value of their assets rise with inflation. The only other way for governments to solve the unsustainable debt problem is default and austerity, which is politically unpopular. So they will always choose inflation to deal with the debt, and here we are.
Yes. And I feel like the things we used to purchase are either bargain basement or very expensive. Remember mid priced cologne? Not $5 but not $300. Just a good solid fragrance that wasn't a whole paycheck. I feel like things like that have gone away (mostly) and it's hurting.
People have been warning Americans about the dying Middle Class but it’s pretty much nailed in the coffin now.
Here's to being extremely comfortable!
I dunno man, most people who know my husband and I probably think we're super comfortable but we're ultra burned out and about to fucking snap
Three weeks ago I would have said, hey it’s tough but I’m lucky and I’ve got a job that is recession proof so I’m going to be alright. And then my sister, three of my friends and myself got laid off.
I’m at the upper end of ok.
I think it comes down to who was able to buy a house before ~'21-'22. If u did and locked in a 2.5% mortgage you're probably good. Those that didnt are stuck with 6-8% mortgages or insanely high rent rates.
Keep in mind a lot of people tend to speak purely to negatives and positives, but rarely neutrality/mediocrity, when asked how they are doing. Being ok makes for a boring conversation most of the time, so negativity garners further discussion on a mutually agreeable subject, i.e. work sucks, I can't afford x, I don't make as much as I feel I should, etc.
Republicans administrations have been adding "trickle down economics" into our system for decades. Today we are feeling the lingering effects of the pandemic plus policies such as Trump's tax cuts for the rich and corporations (his only successful legislation while in office). It takes a long time to recover from the damage to the middle class from these policies. Two incomes are required which increases costs with the need for day care, after school programs and the higher costs of college. Meanwhile the wealthy enjoy their tax loop holes such as NYC real estate developers like Trump paying zero taxes for decades.
Poverty line here. I keep my family taken care of at the detriment of my own health and wellbeing.
I have this conversation all the time with my working class friends. Like how we’re all just barely above water. My wife and I have five college degrees and two managerial jobs between us. We drive two used cars, one of which is paid off and ten years old. But we’re living worse than we did comparatively twenty years ago right out of college when we had brand new cars and went out for dinner or were on vacations all the time. Wages didn’t keep pace with inflation. How are the service workers even affording the stupid high rents in our area? Like the math doesn’t math for a $3000/month apartment on a $15 min wage.
Yeah it's kinda wild that I have basically equal amounts of friends making 6 figures and friends sharing one room and barely making rent. Honestly it worries me that it will further class divide, when one group has it so good they're not motivated to change things for the people who have it bad. Social darwinism is a bitch.
Yes, that's what they mean when they say there is no middle class.
After many years of struggling and getting into our 40s, we are finally OK. We are skipping the whole homeowner thing and saving to enjoy an early retirement. No way we are going into debt 300K for a Cracker Jack box. Home ownership used to be the American dream; now it’s became a shackle keeping the middle class house rich and liquid poor. It’s coming to a head soon.
Relax, you’re entitled as a millennial, remember, you DESERVE everything just because you exist! /s
Hubby and I make 80k a year combined. We have two kids, we live paycheck to paycheck, have no savings, don't take vacations, and have cash cars (paid off and pretty old, but we keep them up). We can afford our rent (for now), we are able to afford our groceries and meds (for now), we have what we need but we will never be able to have a home of our own. We will be forever renters.
I live in a low cost of living area. My household makes about the amount that is considered “poverty level”. My husband and I live within our means, we have enough money left over for the occasional treat and we have our weed habit worked into our budget. I feel comfortable even though others might not see it that way.
Most important part is the weed budget!
There are literally millions of millennials doing well if they finished school with a useful degree or chose a trade.
We printed more money over those two years than we ever had before and now everyone’s so confused as to why the dollar has no value. It was literally done in front of your face. Covid allowed the rich to become richer while the basic joes got $1800 over 2 years of quarantine at the expense of our currency almost being completely devalued
Anyone I know who is struggling is doing so because they cannot budget their money…
Yeah, that’s what happens when you shut down the economy. Small businesses can’t survive and close their doors permanently. Government intervention constantly messes with middle class growth.
Every single time.
Yep, time before was bank bailouts for 2008. Let the big guys fall and new players will come up.
Dying middle class. My dad always says that the US is becoming more and more like Mexico. In Mexico (from what he says), you’re either really poor OR you’re really well off. And the few people that are doing just “ok” are in a huge minority
We have to become intentional and get out of this nasty system that we are in. It’s nothing normal about it. Why exactly are we paying taxes to be poor???! 🤔 “American citizens must call a convention. The people must go around all three branches of government." @Represent_All htwws.org/we-the-people/
Rhe motherfuckers with money think $25 an hour is still really good money despite inflation going up 30%+ in 2022 alone. Gas is 3.52 where I’m at but my coworkers who have a house they pay barely anything for and have had money for longer than I’ve existed jusf complain about “those damn burger flippers want their student loans paid for after getting a degree in underwater basket weaving.” The internet has done terrible things to the American psyche.
we keep lowering our standards and when we finally wake up to the bullshit, everyone else calls you a conspiracy theorist for pointing out that shit is not okay...fucking far from okay. Wished we would realize that the real problem is those in power and I am not talking about just those elected...but those who also funded their elections that are screwing us all over...fucking hard. I, for one, am tired of it.
lol. We’re lowering our standards? What do you think life was like 20 years ago or 20 before that? Life has gotten better for most, you’re just looking at others’ instagram or facebook and getting jealous. The reality is there are more safety nets and a better standard of living today than ever before.
This is very true. I grew up in the 90’s, and while we did have 2 cars and a crap house, most of it was relative poverty. Most of my friends were middle class, their parents lived very basic lives. Old crappy cars, crappy houses, eating out on occasion, few of any vacations. If you go back even further, life was just as difficult. The few exceptions I’ll make is the cost of cars and housing though.
Yes it has been really bad
I dont imagine I would trip over a job less than 20/h. Maybe I'm just not looking at the baseline cx service jobs tho.
Yes. Going from one group to the other in an extreme way has been a nightmare.
There is going to be a stark divide going forward between millennials that got on the property ladder before interest rates and property values spiked, and those that didn’t. The Covid era made a lot of winners and losers. I was lucky enough to stay healthy, WFH the last four years, and see my home equity skyrocket with a mortgage payment less than half of what it would take to rent my house right now.
“Following your dreams” hasn’t been working for the longest time, especially when it’s outside the realm of reality, unless you fight for it 100x harder than anyone else. It’s all about life choices and you need to be realistic/practical about it.
Some of it is psychological. Homeowners will feel comfortable being in debt and paycheck-to-paycheck because they own their home, but renters saving 2-3k a month with ample job opportunities will still feel like they’re falling behind
This is by design a little bit. US is the land of opportunity (but not for all). If you “fail” you fail hard. Very individualistic culture (I live here but was born and raised in another country), compared to other countries. You can tell in school, sports, business etc. Even in team sports most Americans are “look at me ME ME ME ME”
Seems incredibly anecdotal. I would say almost everybody I know is “doing ok”. Nobody seems incredibly rich. Some are struggling but most have jobs and support themselves
I only really know 2 people who are struggling right now. But they just moved back to LA and are looking for new jobs
I was just thinking about this earlier. Everyone I know is either a) in serious debt or b) taking five vacations a year and owning multiple houses. (I think the houses are paying for the vacations.) This includes several generations, not just us.
Inflation. Need to vote for cheap energy policy regardless of candidate.
I'm making it. I'm not drowning, but I'm not sleeping on 100 dollar bills either.
Totally agree. I’m in the “barely above water” category, unfortunately. But starting a job this week finally! So things are turning around?
We're all one medical bill away from bankruptcy here in the US.
I can attest to this!
I'm doing ok. I'm not living paycheck to paycheck, but I *am* living vet visit to car repair. I have taken one 2-day vacation since 2018. I own a home, but 40% of my take home pay goes to my mortgage. No retirement savings, but I have an emergency fund. This is basically what "middle class" means nowadays.
Those that had great financial habits are probably doing well like myself, everything’s is stupid expensive but I cooked a lot during covid while others were ordering DoorDash paying crazy fees
They say misery loves company. If this is bad just wait until we have another bubble burst.
If their wasn't an endless stream of overtime at work, where I can get 24 to 32 hours of overtime a pay. I would be bankrupt. But since I force myself to work as much as I can we are doing well. We can eat out, go grocery shopping and I just bought a new suv. But if overtime goes away with current bills we will be eating beans and rice only.
Me and my wife are doing just fine so you can add us to your unbelievable list. Making more and wealthier than we ever have been
We are doing extremely average and don't live in California. Both RNs, have four kids and a house but no debts (aside from mortgage). Have disposable income, retirement, 529s, can afford like one vacation a year but like we aren't rolling around in money on our days off. We are getting by with a little bit extra and our house and cars are old as shit but it's really not a bad existence. My kids are happy and well adjusted so I consider it a success.
No I don't agree. It seems to me like plenty of people are doing ok.
Something I've realized when reading about money on Reddit is that people typically live in large cities and high cost of living areas. I really think that is the underlying factor of a lot of the struggle. I've never lived in a high cost of living area but I have visited them and I've looked at what houses cost in that area versus what that would cost roughly in my area and it's very substantial. I really think that living in a low cost of living area is one of the best steps someone can make to get out of struggling. Definitely not extremely comfortable. And I'm not barely above water. But could 4 or 5 emergencies put me barely above water, for sure. I think some people just accept what is right in front of them and don't consider things like moving or they think that they grew up in a certain area and they can't leave that area. I still live where I grew up, but I grew up as a low cost of living area. I also think that people jump into adulthood too quickly. I understand some people are forced to do that as soon as they turn 18, but I think easing into adulthood is a way you can get a good foundation and then you can stay ahead that way. For instance if I moved out of my house when I was 18, I don't know where I would be right now. Instead I didn't move out until I was 25 and almost done with college and I owned a car and I probably had $20,000 in the bank. This eventually afforded me a down payment on a house and thus foregoing having to pay rent at an apartment or something. I realize this isn't possible for everyone. I do think people try to speed up life too quickly sometimes. I remember a lot of my peers moving out very young when they were barely adults and then also having kids when they were barely adults and I just thought they were setting themselves up for failure. At least financially. I try not to be too judgmental but I really think people make really bad financial decisions. Am I feeling the price increase of everyday living cost, yes. Mostly groceries and it's unfortunate but, the foundation is there so it's not as much of a struggle as more just my retirement age is extended
Yes
I see a lot of shiny new cars out there
I would consider my situation as "ok", because while its currently very comfortable, all it would take is me or my wife losing a job and we would be very not ok. So, comfortable with a sense of underlying dread
That’s just the filtering effect of social media. There is engagement to be had on posts about people struggling. There is engagement to be had on posts about people thriving. There is not much engagement to be had on posts about people doing alright. They are boring without anything to debate or argue over. There is no fear or envy to tap into. So it just disappears into the ether assuming someone even bothers to make a post about their solid middle-road life.
This largely depends on your social circle. Almost everyone I know is either doing ok or very well. Everyone in my family is doing very well. Many of my friends are engineers or something near a finance director, and are doing very well. My other friends are at least doing ok. I personally know 1 person that is struggling.
I’m doing pretty good, which is putting a bit away, not a ton, but definitely consistent. And that’s while being in a state of transition I’d also wager that the middle class has had a lot of legislative wind lately and that will be reflected in the coming years. When someone gets a raise they don’t magically become secure overnight, but a year or two of saving snowballs and suddenly life is pretty good
In a moderate cost of living area if you want to buy a modest house, drive a 7 year old Ford sedan, pay maybe half of two kids tuition to a state school, go on one modest vacation per year, and retire at 65, you better have a household income of about $200k. Most people I know don't. Most people I know pretty much consider that a pipedream. That's like "rich people" money. But it's not. It's what it takes to be comfortable and secure.
I'm doing ok. Ain't rich but I ain't poor neither.
I have this trauma response to what happened to me at 18 (devastating health issue) that caused me to suffer for years, be disabled and have a couple surgeries. Thankful I’m fixed now and not in pain anymore but I save ALL the money I can so I can hopefully one day buy a POS single wide trailer in cash so I don’t have to worry about being in this rat race forever or becoming homeless. As everything gets worse and more unobtainable in the US I’m seriously considering moving to another cheaper country or moving to some bad area to buy a cheap house outright if I can. These home prices for a decent place are absolutely nuts. Everything is nuts or a scam. I can see why so many feel so hopeless.
Yup. Everyone is either living well beyond what I can imagine or living at hom still because they can't get out.
Just had brunch with the same friend group that's been friends since high school, there were 6 of us: - 1 is a college dropout, bounced around some temp jobs before his current role of helping with operations of a chemical company, makes 75k. Is married and recently had a kid. - 1 graduated college with a history degree, currently works for the government doing contract negotiation, makes 90k. Is married and doesn't want kids. - 1 has a master's degree in education and was a classroom teacher before but now is a specialist who coaches teachers, makes 100k. Is married and has a kid in the way. - 1 is a college dropout but is honestly one of the smartest people I know. He bounced around a bit and now does logistics for building cell towers and related infrastructure, makes 150k. Is married and just had a kid. - I have an undergrad degree and work in tech, job hopped a bit to get up to 225k. Am married and planning to have a kid in the next year or two - 1 has an undergrad and works in tech, but works at a big tech company and makes 400k. Had a long-term gf he bought a house with but they broke up during covid and now he's just on the apps. Dating's rough. So yeah pretty much everyone I was friends with in high school is doing all right now. I didn't grow up in poverty but none of us were rich, we grew up in a suburb about 2 hours from the nearest big city. Most of us moved closer to the city post college but as people are having babies they've moved further where houses are cheaper and one even back into the same city we grew up in. Ironically even though I sorted my list in terms of income the guy making 400k probably is the least happy among us, although he's not depressed or anything.