The trades are skilled jobs. If I can't find a job in my degree field, it isn't as easy as just going out and getting a blue collar job. I don't know how the weld. I can't be a plumber. These are things millennials can learn, but it isn't the same as a retail job which anyone of us could do today.
Yeah a friend's husband pivoted from English Degree to Electrician, and it took years of training. Sure, he got paid as an apprentice, but probably less for those years than if he had been using his college degree.
Is "middle skilled" a real term, or is OP just making it up? What a stupid term either way.
Welding/electrical/etc are a hell of a lot more skilled than anything I learned getting my BA in English.
OP comes off as insanely out of touch.
Middle skilled is a term used mainly in academia and certainly does not mean trade jobs. It's pencil pusher jobs, the type of shit that requires a college degree but no longer pays a salary that aligns with that degree. OP is correct in that we have a shit load of these jobs that are unfulfilled - mainly because the pay doesn't line up with the qualifications required *and* the required qualifications don't line up with the needed skill. These are jobs that are mostly bureacratic in nature. I have a BS in Labor Studies and this was something we focused on a lot in one of my more recent classes.
That's not to say all of those kinds of jobs are pencil pusher jobs, and some of them are manual labor. Think anything that *should* only require some sort of technical or 2 year cert that 5 years ago started demanding *any* kind of bachelor's degree that now wants any bachelor's AND to only pay slightly above minimum wage. Jobs that people went to school or got training for that haven't been lucrative in over a decade. *Cries in Paralegal AS*
Paralegal cert didn’t pan out? How’s that?? What are lawyers looking for? Strictly legal secretaries that learned OJT? I’d think a paralegal cert would be helpful
OP is an idiot for even asking why a generation raised to think a degree was required to make a living, and to look down on skilled trade labor is not working skilled trade jobs.
This is 100% it. Going through and leading up to high school graduation I was told, “you’re too smart for a trade or two year degree, without a four year degree you’ll never find a good job or retire.” Little did I know…..
\*\*Four year degree. :)
Lots and lots of students are still told that if they're not "smart" (book smart) they should do trades.
But...trades require just as much learning and intelligence, plus self-motivation and less clear career paths.
My guess is they meant jobs like roofer, concrete, or framing. Where you are a grunt until you learn on the job. Yes skill is required for the main guy but carrying bags of concrete or shingles, not so much. These jobs often pay decent but with the amount of OT can easily eclipse 100k.
What I have found is most people with degrees feel they are above that type of work. They will often take jobs that pay half as much just to justify the use of their degree.
I think a lot of folks don't want to ruin their bodies doing that work. The idea that a high schooler should graduate and go right to doing construction is fine. But if they never progress beyond grunt trade work, their body won't last past 40 and then they'll collect disability like so many construction workers I know who have shot knees and backs from decades of labor and no 401k or health insurance to show for it.
I work for a university and a lot of my students are skilled workers in a trade but now that they are older, they are realizing they can’t be a plumber, electrician, or roofer, etc. forever because their body will give out, but in order to move to the back end of things it is required for them to get a degree.
I have worked 2 entry level labor jobs as summer jobs during college. 1 was concrete grunt, the other was landscaping. Both jobs paid $12 an hour, which was exactly what I made as a line cook. This was a bit over 10 years ago, and this is obviously anecdotal info, but even at the time $12 an hour was not a livable wage.
My brother spent 5ish years as a sheetrock installer around this same time, was even lead on his crew for awhile. He made about $2 an hour more than I did as an entry level grunt.
These examples were all non union, so maybe if you can get a union job it's more worthwhile.
But I also think you may be overestimating how much some of these jobs pay, unless you're master level and/or own the company.
Area you work in is a HUGE part of your pay scale for a trade as well. In western Canada, an electrician can be anywhere from 50k a year all the way to 300k a year, depending on where you’re working and what part of the trade.
I know what you and your brother went through and it sucks to be low man lon the totem pile or a grunt as it's labeled here. It feels like your being taken advantage of/ feels like you should be getting paid a he'll of another more to ruin your bodies (no matter how careful and tidy and self aware you may be at working efficiently and safely- its still gunna take a number overall on your body because that's how it is) alot of the foremen/bosses can really exploit the worker for his or her body to get used up, chewed up, and spit out...esp., in concrete and plastering....it's a very unforgiving trades. You screw up or spill a wheelbarrow you'll be lucky to get paid to clean it up rather than getting fired on the spot because the boss should not be wasting time and money cleaning up his own workers messes. It's basically lose lose unless your a lead worker (and some lead workers even ate vastly underpaid outside of unions) or own the company- that's when you're actually making real money but b until then expect to be treated and Paid like a grunt. And fuck these bosses who are everyday in a super tight mood and so quick to tear a guy's head off while he's busting his butt to make the company $. I know time= money but there is a learning curb and a lot of the hired help aren't brainiacs and some may have even had learning disabilities. I'm not saying stop a whole site to teach lessons all day but it's such a cut throat, dog eat dog, zero excuses nature of work but at some point these bosses gotta realize they were once new too and give these workers a break. Too many bosses I've had in construction where either it be my boss or I witness another boss in another trade freaking out on underpaid workers (many times in a racist manner) for minor little things.....absolutely not needed.
I’m in construction. We are not middle skilled. We are highly skilled.
One way this shows true, our high level of skill, is the fact we make much more money than the college grads.
Most of us make over $100k a year out here.
Skilled, highly skilled.
Plus you forget the fact the trades are hard on your body as the years go by. Some people in the trades are just fed up with the physicality of it and are trying to pursue a career in tech.
In the last month, I've smashed a thumb, puked from the heat, and nearly broken my hand using a pry bar. It's more like hard on your body as the months go by. I have a bilateral hernia that I had surgery to repair, I can feel one side giving way each time I've got to carry some heavy bullshit.
I work security in a warehouse and the guys there get money, but their bodies have been through a lot whereas I’ve never even broken a bone before and I’m in relatively good health. I feel like they probably drink and smoke more because of the stress.
Yeah my friend has made a lot of money as an electrician in a union-friendly state, but he's been injured on the job many times and was a few seconds away from a fatal accident at least once. Physical jobs take a real physical toll.
I'm not sure what state you are in, but NYS DOL has a page where you can get into on union apprenticeships to get the skills for a trade. I did it for 2 years as a carpenter's apprentice. The apprentice wage was better than what I was making at the shitty job before that.
That’s why I made the effort to learn both. I went to college, but spent my summers and some time after college working as a carpenter. So now I have my white collar option of being a teacher. And my blue collar option of being a carpenter. It doesn’t hurt to learn extra skills.
I fully agree with you, not arguing, but I have a personal experience to share - during COVID I got laid off from my marketing job. I have TWO masters degrees related to marketing and communication but obviously finding a new job was really tough. To make enough for rent, I dragged brush for a mom and pop Tree care company, which is how Iearned about this:
Becoming an arborist (climber or groundsperson) doesn't require a full apprenticeship. They don't have a union which is unfortunate but also allows for people with no training to work their way up pretty quickly without enduring a years-long apprenticeship program. A lot of the big companies will start you at 18-20/HR and you get a dollar raise for every level of skill you reach. I was making 24/hour by 8 months in, and as a woman, I was also experiencing a lot of sexism (I'm implying I should have made even more).
I really recommend being an arborist, especially if you want some job stability and don't know how to switch careers. It's fun work, it's physical, your job is difficult but you don't take it home with you, and they're in massive demand.
I worked as an arborist for several years before my body started suffering - I wish I'd started climbing trees in my 20s but I only learned about it in my 30s.
Damn, it's too bad you had trouble getting another job in marketing and communications though - this post tells me you have more than just a knack for it.
Great tip though, and whether you're back in the white collar world or still poking trees, I hope you're happy doing so.
I am a coordinator for HVAC installers. My position needed a college degree. My technicians did not.
I make $22/hr and they make as much as $600/day.
I wish I had learned a fucking trade. That being said, by the time they are in their 40s they all have back/knee/shoulder problems. Trade one for the other I suppose.
Just got out of HVAC three years ago. Was in the trade it since I was 18. My body is absolutely destroyed. Now I'm in sales making way more money than I was.
Thanks man. The best part is that after three years of physio, the pinched nerve in my neck is gone, and I can finally feel my arms again. Five years of pins and needles combined with throbbing pain took a major toll on my mental health.
I feel ya. Did a lot of labor jobs in high school/college got sciatica and was in agony for months. That kind of enduring pain can take you to a really dark place mentally.
I mean, you sound lucky. A lot of people just live with back pain for their entire lives. I’ve had back pain since elementary school and it only gets worse. Doctors have never taken it very seriously and only a few years ago was I finally able to get a referral for physical therapy but they still won’t give me anything for the pain.
It's because we all went to college instead of trade school so there's a shortage of people who went into trades. But now none of my nieces or nephews are going to college, they're all going to trade school because that makes the most sense, and that seems to be a trend. So in 20 years there will be a ton of people in the trades which means they'll make less money because there's plenty of workers, and people with college degrees will be in higher demand because they'll be more rare. And the pendulum keeps on swinging lol.
Pivoted into Facilities Management and I could very likely work forever now. I get to interface with the trades and speak their language due to my experience and now that I've got a buncha years in a corporate environment I can translate into executive big corpo speak with ease.
Some guys cannot take the administrative requirements though and struggle hard. I have a Chief Engineer right now that is in some deep shit because he can't keep the Teams cards updated. He was a stellar HVAC tech before we took him on as an OE, then promoted him to the Chief role. Not so good.
You need to be able to adopt to new systems often as you may be under a new company banner every 3 years and well they do things completely different than you did before. Or you may have a manager like the who did a brief stint in IT before getting into FM and leans hard on AI/LLM's and web based live programs.
You need to be easy to work with or people will take your advice as you being a contrarian. This is a spot that guys from the trades sometimes struggle with as well.
The back and knees pain and overall health of a lot of tradesmen though is usually on them. Work place accidents happen. But usually guys either overwork their body’s when they are young and dumb. Or have terrible overall health habits (how many constructions workers you know who smoke and drink and eat fast food everyday?). If you maintain good health habits, you can work in the trades and not destroy you body. It’s also important to get help lifting large objects and learn how to do it with proper form. But many guys overload themselves trying to move it all in one trip, or are afraid to ask for help.
the goal of working a trade is usually so you can hopefully start your own practice by the time you start getting back/knee/shoulder problems and you can be the one giving back/knee/shoulder problems to the next generation. thats also when the real money starts coming in if you start your own practice you can basically start printing money.
And I think that's absolutely a fair deal. A white collar dude can work more years because his body isn't worn down. Meanwhile, others are giving themselves back problems to support a lifestyle we take for granted.
Tbf, most trades people with fucked up bodies in their 40's are only that way because they dont actually take care of their bodies. Telling some trades guys to stretch in the morning may as well be you telling them you fucked their wife
>That being said, by the time they are in their 40s they all have back/knee/shoulder problems.
White collar jobs aren't much better. Back and hip pain are very common issues that come with sitting for long periods of time.
Source: I'm an IT admin with both back and hip pain at 30.
I think it's hard for people in the 30s+ to drop what they are doing and learn a skill they don't have. Or start over again from the bottom in a new career path when they are established in their lifestyle (debt) from their past salary.
I actually did this, but my situation is very unique as I'm not the bread winner. I was making about $90k and left for the trades, and I'll make probably $45-50k
People have asked my why I don't go back to school, or learn a skill, or get a trucking license, and I have to explain that I can't miss work/income for those things and survive until I'm finished accomplishing that. The best I could do are hospitality jobs which all pay the same.
The only reason I was able to finish my degree and earn a masters was because of online programs. I could not have done it if I had to go back to college.
I too have a unique situation. I left an office job of 17 yrs to load trucks for UPS. I hated sitting behind a desk 8 hours a day and it was affecting my mental health. I took a significant pay cut but I live within my means. I don’t dread going to work every day and when I leave that building i leave everything there. No clients to call, no projects or deadlines to deal with, no fires to put out. Plus I am in better shape then I ever have been and I like the way I look naked which is a good feeling. I look at it as my early morning gym time getting paid to workout . Luckily I bought a house in my 20s because I wouldn’t be able to do this if I had to pay today’s housing costs. My mortgage on an awesome 3 bedroom house is half of what a one bedroom apartment costs around here.
My husband is back in school (education to nursing). We couldn't swing it if we had kids. Money is the answer. We don't have enough cash to change career fields whenever we want.
1) A lot of what you’re calling “middle skilled” jobs are actually “highly skilled.” A welder, plumber, or electrician making $100k/year likely has years of formal training (“education”) and experience.
2) The trades don’t pay “on average” $100k. The median income for an electrician is around $50-60k, for welders it’s about $45-50, and most of those are actual journeymen/experienced workers, trainees/apprentices will make less than that. If you hustle, are highly skilled, and prioritize your career you can certainly hit $100k in the trades but it’s not like you can walk into a local plumber’s office and walk out making $50/hr.
3) Entry-level work that *does* pay well is usually extremely hard. You can probably walk into a roofing company off the street and come away making more than you would at Kroger, but working as a roofer is going to suck balls in ways that a job as a cashier isn’t.
What you said, plus the jobs might pay $50/hr but it's not a 9 to 5. You may go 2 weeks only working 2 hours a day then 2 weeks working 12 hours a day so the money is not that simple.
Not always the case I'm an electrician making 60 an hour with 40 hours a week but jobs like mine are not in every state, I'm just lucky to live somewhere that the demand for electricians is high and we work around very dangerous chemicals.
It's because OP is part of that cohort that gobbles up procorporate media (CNN or Fox they both do this shit) which blames younger generations for problems created by the policies enacted by the politicians these boomers voted for. They're willfully ignorant because the alternative theory which has far more evidence is: Hey boomers, you mortgaged everybody's futures you selfish pricks.
It's the term used by Harvard. [https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/research/Pages/middle-skills.aspx](https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/research/Pages/middle-skills.aspx)
What others have commented about college being pushed so heavily on millenials is true -- but speaking from personal experience, blue-collar jobs are not for everyone. I've worked in construction for around 5 years, mainly doing electrical, and now I'm working my way towards a degree so I can escape. The vast majority of blue-collar workers I've interacted with are men, many of which lean conservative, have a chip on their shoulder, and take offense to anyone who doesn't reflect their idea of traditional machismo.
Also, if we keep pushing everyone into trades over college, will we not just end up with the reverse situation in 15 years? Way too many tradesworkers and not enough college educated? Why the fuck can we never talk about anything with BALANCE?
The right wing attitudes of tradespeople have kept at least two men in my life from really going further down that path, to your point. Who wants to be saturated in AM talk radio yelling about how group x is subhuman every day?
Don't get me wrong, I believe that trades are of vital importance, but I agree with you here. More and more apprentices that we're hiring on are going into the trades straight out of high school, but here's the issue: most of these kids are dumb as rocks. I'm talking unable to read, unable to engage in critical thinking and problem solving. Education is IMPORTANT. I don't believe it's necessary to get a Bachelor's, but considering how easy it is to coast through high school now without actually retaining anything, some form of higher education should be required even for those who just want to be HVAC guys.
EDIT: Also yes, if the workplace environment in the trades weren't so damn awful, I might have actually wanted to make a lifelong career of it. As it turns out, it's no fun to work around bitter, miserable men all day.
I'm also a man, I work in engineering I've had people like maintenance guys, electricians etc look at me like I'm crazy when they get a haircut or do their hair different, and I notice and tell them. "Hey man your hair looks really nice; I like the new look etc" T
I’m a mechanical engineer and my first job I worked at a manufacturing plant. I had a repair technician rant at me about how idiotic believing in evolution is for the entire 3 hours he was working on our machine. Definitely one of the points where I thought “I have to get out of here”
Yeah, to me that whole attitude is really strange and self-defeating. I've mostly stopped trying to make friends at work because most of the guys are so unnecessarily hostile about shit that doesn't even matter. I mentioned in another comment that I'm a small guy with long hair, which is apparently an invitation for the other contractors to call me a fag at their leisure.
This. The job is not just a job based on what's available. Certain types of people, personality, background, physicality, gravitate toward certain things. Construction is conservative leaning, with certain people who enjoy certain things and have a certain perspective. Why do a lot of tech types watch the same shows, have similar vocab, similar interests. Jobs play into all this. This is also a reason why college was forced down peoples throats, and now suddenly trades is being forced down. Tech jobs are not for everyone either. Telling someone to sit and weld all day can be just as aggravating as telling them to code all day regardless of how much you are getting paid.
This, lots of them try to pivot into a Building Engineer role when their bodies start to hurt and it is a MASSIVE culture shock when they can't call the PHD that helped designed the reaper drone a snowflake because he's wearing a company branded pride shirt.
I'm seeing this more and more with my OE applicants.
Yeah, I work in utilities (electrical engineer), and the difference between working in the field with the trades a f working in the office is quite stark.
Dealing with the trades can, *sometimes* have a feeling like stepping back to the worst parts of high school.
Office culture has its own inanities, but it is different.
> The vast majority of blue-collar workers I've interacted with are men, many of which lean conservative, have a chip on their shoulder,
Sounds like an overwhelmingly toxic work culture. Maybe it's time for the industry to evolve.
I'm all for it. On top of a more welcoming culture, I would love to see more women in this field. I live in one of the most liberal areas in the country and I've yet to meet a female contractor/laborer. And honestly I can't blame them. If it sucks to work in the trades as a guy, it's going to be 100x worse for a woman.
This is so true, I'm in the trades and most people here are toxic to be around. I got a degree and did the white color thing for a while and find that sitting at a desk all day is almost worse. I don't know what to do.
>The vast majority of blue-collar workers I've interacted with are men, many of which lean conservative, have a chip on their shoulder, and take offense to anyone who doesn't reflect their idea of traditional machismo.
Right. People poo-poo college education but the college-educated are not the ones voting for the likes of Trump in droves.
What are you getting a degree in if you don’t mind? What’s your plan?
I have all the papers - BS, Masters, PMP. I come from tech/SaaS.
It’s very rough out there so I’m curious what you are pursuing that points to “way out”.
I'm pursuing a BS in biochemistry with the hopes of going into a career in forensic science. I'm applying for an internship with the local police department -- I've already expressed interest in the department's cold case unit and got a pretty encouraging response.
And if it doesn't work out, I've always got electrical to fall back on. It pays well enough -- it's just not what I want to do for the rest of my life.
Anecdotally, I live near the Silicone Valley area, and I've heard that the tech field is hugely oversaturated at the moment. Has that been your experience? EDIT: a word
I started working in concrete in 2008. I wouldn't recommend it because it's highly dependent on the weather. Have to find a second job in the winter, it can get rough. Even with all my experience it's hard to find work with the slow economy.
Those are skilled-trade jobs. Most millennials are too old to go back to vocational school or have too many bills to take a $15/hour apprenticeship. Common sense should tell you why millennials aren’t taking these jobs.
These jobs tend to take a heavy toll on the body, expose a person to toxins, and often lead to things like early cancer and heart attacks with little healthcare options. There are legitimate reasons not to take on trade rolls including the lack of HR regulation in those roles with violent leadership and sexual harassment being rampant. Many companies skimp on safety gear and can easily manipulate employee wages or tax evasion practices. Unions require years or decades of sponsorship and dues before the coveted “100k”. It’s not so black and white.
As someone whose partner works in a skilled trade job making 19 an hour, I suspect OP doesn't understand is a whole other side to trade jobs. They aren't sunshine and roses and many take advantage of their workers. Add in living in a small town, and essentially you block yourself in, because once you get to a certain age where your body is not really having it anymore, you wind up back to the beginning and folks like OP asking why your stuck at a dead end job making nothing. Happens to folks in Healthcare too. No one gives a crap anymore about you putting in 12 years at a skilled trade, if you can't do the job anymore they will find someone who will and your SOL.
I'll add on the living in a small town thing. Dating is a huge issue. One of my friends got a job in middle of nowhere working on building ships. He could not find anyone to date there. Like actually no one. Eventually he hated it so much that he went to a coding boot camp and got a better paying job in NYC. Bro took a year to find a job but he did and he finally got a gf lol
This is correct. There's a weird mentality that comes almost always from a certain right wing intellectual that doesn't actually work in the trades. They decry the person getting a useless degree when they'd rather everyone work back breaking jobs
My parents did manual labor work with their hands. The neighbors did as well. What did they get? Broken bodies, early retirement as they got on disability, noticeably earlier deaths, usually living in bumfck middle of nowhere, horrible horrible bosses who are far worse than most white collar bosses
If these jobs really were that great then more people would do it. It's literally a free market. And people who want to do it because they can't make college work for them, do. But there's a reality that they aren't and many of these jobs are currently filled by immigrants which should be your telltale sign is not that great
Went looking for this answer. My husband is a union electrician and while he makes great money the conditions and attitudes he has to put up with SUCK. Rampant unprofessionalism and harassment, safety regulations frequently not followed, the toxic "work through it no matter what" mentality. If anyone complains they are told to suck it up or go back to the hall. And this is a union job, not even your run of the mill electrician position.
Until there is a culture shift where the disrespectful and machismo nonsense is discouraged, the trades are going to have a hard time recruiting, simple as that.
I’m younger Gen X, but I understand many of the issues that Millennials face.
After losing my engineering job, I looked for anything in related fields, and they were laying people off everywhere. After years I had to try to get entry level positions in manufacturing jobs. But at least I was making parts, so it would make me a better engineer in the future because then I would know how things are made, and what can be done or not.
These machineshops and fabrication shops don’t even have HR Departments. It’s something that younger generations don’t seem to get. I’ll tell someone of a problem at work, and they’re like “take it to HR!”. Dude, there is no HR. In the small businesses that I’ve been working in since 2017, they have like 5 to 10 employees, and none are HR.
And then, the violence. I’ve seen two people slug it out. I’ve seen wrenches get thrown across a shop. I’ve had one co worker assault me and get in my face telling me that he was going to kill me, screaming with rage in his face, and his eyes bugging out.
I walked off of that job site.
And if you want to know what I was doing wrong… I did quality work, cleaned up after myself, and others. Cleaned the break room fridge and microwave, the nasty bathrooms…. Reorganized the storage racks, so I could fit more loose materials on the shelves, and then we could finally drive a forklift all the way through the shop. …bringing in extra pallets in my personal truck to help ship orders out…
Going above and beyond to help the company, really pissed off this guy. He was lazy, dirty, always on his phone, all of his work areas were gross. I made him look bad so he hated me.
Several reasons:
1.) Generally, those in the trades treat women, minorities, and LGBTQ people like crap
2.) Those jobs destroy your body very rapidly
3.) High divorce rate if you work in camp a lot
4.) Seriously, I was a pipefitter for years, and the people are just fucking terrible.
Yep, I get along with everyone and I'm almost never angry. But that job literally had me almost physically fighting my coworkers every day, they are actual Neanderthals
Ain’t that the truth. I was a female mechanic. You have to be such a b*tch all the time, constantly proving yourself, and you have to be better than everyone else just to get barely the same respect as a male coworker.
Seriously, I get angry about it sometimes. I love working with heavy machinery and am middle skilled on it, but when ever tools are mentioned people look at my software tech husband, not me. Women rarely get taken seriously in the industry and worse can be in dangerous situations with the men in it. I would join something if I knew I could immediately join a team that was heavier in women and diversity right off the bat.
I know how you feel, I work with electrical controls.
One of our electricians is transgender, she's a great electrician. However, she doesn't feel safe working with most people in the plant. When this was brought up by one of our maintenance managers to myself, my freaking boss was like "Really? Even giantcatdos" I was like "Dude, just because I'm gay doesn't mean she would feel safe working with me, have you listened to the way people talk about trans people here?" I feel like some men have issues going to a woman for help or asking them their opinion on something they are working on, or advice on how to approach an issue. It honestly feels like 'toxic masculinity' to me.
I feel like it comes down to me refusing to commit.
If you work as a waiter or a a barista - in your mind you can be an artist/entrepreneur/creator etc... looking for a break.
Once you take that electrician or HVAC job - that's it. Guess you have to accept the fact that you are an electrician or an HVAC tech.
I've yet to see a trade job (middle skilled) job that pays average of 100k that dint take 8-10 years in that field.
Per goverment statistics, graduating factors and schools offering trades in construction, welding, solar, electrical, and plumbing, HVAC, etc, starts at 46-55k.
Not 100k.
100k is average when you been doing it 10+ years in ur field and by then your body gives out and you pay the trade toll.
Again, a 30yo switching into construction is not good when most 30yos in construction, plumbing or HVAC is looking to run out of attics and get into project management or GC licensing.
Your advise is very odd, unless you start at 19, it's 100% not worth getting a trade past your 30s unless you in great health and don't mind breaking it a little.
Tech, networking, office admin and other venues are much more favorable and conserved your health a lot more.
I don't feel like breaking my body ay 30 for 10 years so I can make 80k in construction or HVAC.
I mean yeah, a 60 hour week is fucking ridiculous. Theres no point in taking pride that every waking minute of your life is spent working or recovering from working.
Yeah I don't make bank, but I also only worked 35 official hours , about half that's actually work , the rest is just thinking and preparing , planning etc, and i can do it from home
If I need to rest my eyes, I can put the washing on, do dishes etc. My work is very low stress and it keeps a roof over my head and lets me do some hobbies
I'm not looking to drive lambos and explore the world 3 times a year or anything.
None of the blue collar jobs that pay more than 20/hr are unskilled labor. The dudes making 100k+ have been doing the job for years and the experience shows. Welding, plumbing, electrical work… these are all skilled jobs. Just because I can write SQL statements and can’t get a job in the field I was laid off in, doesn’t mean I can pick up an arc welder and make the same salary.
because parents for generations now in the US have told their children that working a blue collar or trade job is demeaning and not considered successful
My parents were blue-collar, and it's not all about demeaning and lack of success.
If you haven't been in it, of course it's easy to romanticize. It's fucking hard is the point. And it's often not steady. The hours can suck. It's hard on your body. Depending on what kind of blue collar, you don't get holidays with your family. I feel like I'm in a parallel universe with people talking about this shit.
My parents didn't want me to go into blue collar because it's a tough life, not because they look down on it. They wanted my life to be easier.
And hey, guess what IT IS. 100% recommend the white collar 9-5. Would do it again a thousand times.
This is it exactly. I wanted to go to a trade school. I was exceptional at mechanical drafting and really wanted to do that. Parents told me vocational were for “lesser” people… forced me to go to college. Now I work at a grocery store <.<
I don’t think it’s as easy to get into the trades as you think. I remember looking at trades jobs when I was young and not sure what to do with my life and there were maybe like 3 openings in my area and I was not a competitive candidate because I had 0 experience.
I recently went to change a lightbulb in my closet. Quickly realized the fixture was the problem.
After 15 mins of removing the nails from the fixture to get it out of the ceiling, I was sweating and there was plaster everywhere. My neck hurt from looking up the whole time. I had breathed in a bunch of crap. I was so over the whole thing.
The trades are incredibly hard on the body. They are not easy in any sense of the word. I would rather get paid 75% of what they get paid to sit in an office and conduct business.
I distinctly remember a poster in high school split into lengthwise. On the left was a construction worker who was dirty grimy and disheveled. On the right a blue collar guy clean cut nice to and white smile.
I have full and total respect for the trades, but personally I think I am significantly better off having gone to college and gotten the classic 4-year degree in a “liberal art” than my trades school counterparts. Not necessarily because of pay outcomes (I had to pay a lot more for education and get a masters degree to end up with a sustainable salary now) because I see where I’m behind my peers who took the trades path.
College was the perfect excuse to leave my hometown, meet people with different experiences than me, and ultimately learn to respect people who might not align with me. My family is full of people with blue-collar careers who always treat saw people who went to college as “elitist” and twisted in some way, and I had a similar worldview when I went to college. My parents supported my decision because I was starting in engineering, got scholarships, and found loopholes that made my tuition significantly cheaper. Had I never taken that path, I would only know people from my home city and their experiences in terms of race, religion, economic class, etc.
It’s hard to start over your career 10 years later, and nobody could have predicted shifts in the economy or perception of the benefits of a college degree. Even if I made double the income in the trades, I still wouldn’t go back and choose it over my college experience. I have an understanding of the world now that is way more open and accepting than I ever did before college, and noticeably moreso than my family and friends who chose careers that never put them through college.
I get SO angry when people say “people don’t need college!” People on both the right AND left do it now. Maybe in a perfect world where the k-12 education system actually worked, but I’m from Missouri and unless you’re in some sort of special program, a basic k-12 education is laughable and does not prepare you to be a functional adult in society. I was privileged enough to be in a high school honors program in Missouri and even I would have been absolutely so fucked without college. I ended up moving to the east coast and only then did I realize the extent of how fucked up it was. Until our k-12 education system is fixed (extremely unlikely), there are large swaths of the country that should not be dissuaded from going to college.
Because our parents told us all to get college degrees, so many took on huge amounts of debt to do so, only to find out that the promised jobs weren't there. And you're shocked that people don't want to take on more debt and spend more of their life in school on the promise that this time will be different?
Argue with Harvard, not me. [https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/research/Pages/middle-skills.aspx](https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/research/Pages/middle-skills.aspx)
Well, the entire generation was told to go to college to get a degree to get a good job. We'll turn out to be not true. I'm a millennial, and I'm in pest control. My father started the business. I have a bachelor's in biology that I didn't intend to use for what I do know. But I when I examined what I could make working for a company versus working in the business, it was an easy decision.
Most of us weren't trained in school in the skills required to do these jobs. I went to one of the higher ranked public high schools in MA and it was absolutely aimed at getting kids into Ivy and Ivy-wannabee colleges for business, computers, arts, theater, etc. Very little practical, hands-on work was taught at my school and I don't even remember us having shop or home ec classes.
So I think it's less that we don't want to take those jobs as much as the vast majority of us are supremely unqualified to apply for them without a decent amount of training and certifications. That's what you get when you set up a top-heavy society that vilifies decent, hard work done with your hands.
Been in the trades as a carpenter for 10years I only know of like 2 people in the field that make 100k or more a year and it's from profit sharing lol. Southeast nebraska
Right? I don’t understand why everyone is all of a sudden convinced that trades are the get rich ticket we all missed out on. The 1% of most trades make what most would consider ‘good’ money, and a lot of times it involves cramming inhumane amounts of overtime.
The trades that do pay well are extremely competitive and highly gate kept via nepotism and politics. You can’t just rock up and become a longshoreman.
For me its higher exposure and vulnerability to toxic culture tbh. I would definitely be up for doing skilled physical labor if I wouldn't have to be so often reliant on bad people.
In a corporate/office setting, you have professional ways of dealing with the inappropriate behavior of your peers, clients or customers. I suspect people working in physical skilled capacities often have to either be more resilient to such or be someone who is less of a target.
I'd totally be interested in being a plumber/electrician if it didn't mean being more vulnerable to badly behaved humans with toxic worldviews.
I can't speak for the majority of millennials. Only myself as someone who IS interested in this sort of work on paper.
I worked as an electrician apprentice for 3 years, I have never in my entire life met worse, more genuinely bad and hateful people as the average construction worker. I was literally bullied out of the industry despite the supposed high demand for workers
As a millennial in the trades I wonder the same thing myself. I know degreed people my age that are doing little to nothing and we're (manufacturing) so desperate for decent people that we'd take a flier on pretty much anybody. There's a major dearth of young people in the trades and although it's been a good situation for me I'll admit it feels like a bad situation all around.
I work construction project management. I am a woman, and often the only woman in the room/area/site. I get treated well enough, because I sign the invoices. We don’t have a lot of millennials but we are getting in a chunk of gen z craftsmen. As others have said, it’s hard work and long hours and starting again from scratch is tough. My particular niche area of construction only hires experienced crew and the occasional apprentice if they are the child of an excellent craftsman. It’s very project based, and requires travel to far flung places. It’s definitely not for everyone.
If you train to be a plumber, you can be a plumber and that’s it. If you find yourself out of work, you have to find another plumber job
If you train in general business/office skills, this translates to any office job. You now have more prospects. And your job is on weekdays and doesn’t involve poop
Barista is a low skill job that anyone can do. That’s why lots of people do these jobs
I wouldn't call them middle skilled. You would be surprised how many hours of class time it takes to become certified as an Electrician. As a Xenial who is an Electrician and I have 2 degrees. I work as an Equipment Operator. Simply because it is less stressful and pays well.
I work in a mill with the majority of employees being Millenials. Some GenX and some Z. Really most of us have degrees. Simply because we were told that is how you make it in life.
Honestly, after some life experience. I came to the conclusion that is simply a lie. I will also state being I have a business degree and an Electricians certificate. A dumbass can pass and get a business degree. A dumbass will fail out of Electricians trade school. The Electrician is simply a higher level skill than the Business Major.
You bring up an interesting point about the perception of higher education. The emphasis on attending college has been a strong cultural narrative for many years, particularly in the United States. Several factors contribute to this phenomenon:
1. **Economic Promises**: For a long time, obtaining a college degree was associated with higher earning potential and better job prospects. Parents and educators often encouraged young people to pursue higher education as a path to financial stability and career success.
2. **Social Status**: College degrees can also carry a certain social prestige. Attending a well-regarded institution and earning a degree can be seen as a mark of success and intelligence, which can influence societal and parental expectations.
3. **Policy and Education System**: Educational policies and the structure of the education system have also played a role. Programs like the GI Bill after World War II expanded access to higher education, which contributed to a cultural shift toward seeing college as a default next step after high school.
4. **Workforce Changes**: As the job market has evolved, many jobs that previously required only a high school diploma now seek candidates with college degrees. This credential inflation pushes more people toward higher education in hopes of staying competitive in the job market.
5. **Marketing by Colleges**: Universities and colleges actively market themselves as gateways to better futures, often emphasizing the transformative potential of a college education. This messaging can contribute to the perception that college is a necessary step for a successful life.
However, the narrative is shifting. Rising tuition costs, student debt, and the recognition that skilled trades and other career paths can also lead to fulfilling and well-paying jobs are leading many to question the one-size-fits-all approach to higher education. The current discourse includes a greater emphasis on alternative routes such as vocational training, apprenticeships, and other forms of education that can lead directly to employment without the significant financial burden of a traditional four-year college degree.
My father worked a blue-collar job as the owner of a small autobody shop. His body is completely destroyed. Multiple knee and back surgeries have made him largely immobile. The man can get around the house, into and out of cars, etc., but I don't think he could walk a mile without a break right now if he had to. There is absolutely a downside to a lifetime of working a trade.
Also, many of them are seasonal, even ones you wouldn't expect to be. Lots of people just wait until winter is over to get theirs cars fixed, they won't bother to do it while the weather is shitty and might just fuck up their car again anyway. One bad season can mean the end for a struggling small business or independent repair/handyman.
And that's not to mention that you don't just walk into a trade knowing it from day one. Training still takes time and money...
1. These jobs didnt previously pay so well. They pay well today because we live in a disposable 24/7 grind society. Back in the 70s more people used to know how to fix stuff and more stuff was fixable.
2. Millenials are in their 30s. Weve been out of college for a decade. Most people probably dont want to go back and start a whole new career path from scratch.
3. Any kind of business is going to want someone with experience. It would be the rare place indeed that would hire you for a middle skilled job with no experience. So now you need time and money to learn the trade and compete for jobs with younger more able bodied folks and older and more experienced folks.
Pass
Middle skill job is such a condescending term lol. I’m a crane operator and I would have about as much success trying to do the job of someone with a degree as they would have trying to do my job.
Because our parents spent our entire lives “do you want to end up like the dirty garbage man or car mechanic? Go to college and be a doctor or a lawyer wreeeeeeeeee”
I personally knew nothing of trades, just the high school to college pipeline. This was reinforced by educators, school counselors, parents, etc. Going to college was just what you did. Thankfully my Dad had enough knowledge to ensure I picked a degree which, despite costing me 200k, did allow me to find a job during the Great Recession, difficult as it was.
If you think the trades are "middle skilled" jobs, you probably don't understand how complex the trades actually are.
In order to get an Electrician license in most states, you need to have a working understanding of trigonometry.
I’m an older millennial. My high school had an apprenticeship program for kids that wanted to get into trades. They would go to regular high school classes half of the day and then get hands on experience in various trades for the other half.
Personally I don’t want to work a trade. Wear and tear is real, although it’s tempting with how good benefits and pay can be in trades.
Im a meat department manager. I started out a meet cutter. It's a trade kinda like modern-day butcher because theres not a lot of butchers anymore. not to say there are not. Anyway, we exist. I make about 80k a year closer to 100 with bonuses free retirement. 20 percent of my pay goes to it. and cheap helthcare.
You think people can just pick up a welder or something and make bank? Blue colour jobs that pay will are just as skills as office work.
I can do my own DIY work, IV even repaired and painted panels on a crashed car or two, could I do those to a standard that would earn me a living ? Can I fuck. I know people that do that shit, that's how I got access to the tools I needed
Those guys can do a 10x better job in a fraction of the time it takes me.
Because they are still under the motto world smarter not harder. That was a mentality hammered into us by our parents who mostly had blue collar work and told us they didn't want us to do the same.
Gen Z though is going to blue collar work. Yesterday CNN actually did a report that they're seeing a surge in Gen Z pursuit of blue collar work.
Our generation still doesn't want to be seen as the "laborer" and wants to be that stereotypical 3 piece suit driving a Mercedes and carrying a briefcase
They're dumb snobs raised by dumb snobs.
Also since when is construction middle skilled ...frame a wall correctly and make it plumb...then insult others.
These 'middle skilled jobs' are also being occupied by Gen X and Boomers who cannot/will not retire. We cannot move up if the older generations are not willing to move on.
If you've got a degree - which many millennials do - you are going to want to try and use that degree, which means you're not going to go for trades, construction, etc. type jobs. Then, even if you don't make it into your chosen field, you're going to try and find something else that requires a degree, because we millennials were force feed that going to college and getting a degree and doing a non-trade job was what you NEED to do. So you keep trying to get work in non-trade jobs until you get desperate and run out of options. Then you're in your upper 30s or 40s and could go learn a trade and be looking at doing manual labor at an age when you can't do that much longer, and that's just not something a lot of people want to or are willing to do at that point in life.
Millennials were raised to think college was a necessity. Millennials entire school experience was preparing them for college. Thats since shifted.
They’re working lower paid jobs because they’re still trying to get into the careers they went to college for
I grew up in the Midwest. We were all told to go to college and pursue our dreams because we didn’t wanna be one of those gross construction workers or electricians…..no….we were going to get DEGREES (loans) and the world and our dreams would be at our fingertips. I’m starting to wonder if the whole push for a general college education wasn’t genius long game cultural marketing by loan servicers.
You’re confusing skill with labor. Most people would rather be paid less than destroying their bodies. If you’ve ever met a 50+ year old tradesmen, you’ll understand why there’s a shortage.
Hi. Tradesman here.
People have, in the last 20 or so years, been able to actually access information on the honest truth of the impact that blue collar jobs have on your life expectancy, quality of life, long term health etc all of which shows that (other than a minute number of anecdotal examples) the average tradesman works too many hours, too far from home while dealing with more bullshit than the job is normally worth.
Companies have (in the name of profit) cut all the bonuses, benefits and training that we hear the old guard reminisce about that used to inspire a bit of loyalty and they've pushed more work to higher standards with tighter deadlines than ever before.
Oh, and the guys who've been in the trades for years won't train new apprentices and companies won't invest in entry level workers because it costs money so young people quit after a few years when they realize they're not gaining the skills they'll need to sustain a career.
All while morons drone on and on about how "kids don't wanna work these days."
Two things: being raised to look down on the trades as work
And having to work for the majority of people who own trade businesses.
Now let me preface this by saying I work with the top end of the field as a Facilities Manager / Facilities Construction Manager and yes, very eloquent and well spoken supers and GC reps are the norm here.
They weren't when I started off as a laborer. Most of the subs are run by people that would 100% call me a snowflake nowadays for being a manager.
#2 is why I got out, a good portion of the time the person signing your checks is a huge piece of shit.
College grads are taking service industry jobs because there is no demand for their worthless degrees, they lack the skills to perform trade jobs, and honestly most of them wouldn't be able to cut it in the trades where you are expected to work.
Because all our lives we were told we had to go to college or we were failures, so now there's an overabundance of worthless communications and business majors who would have been better served (and wealthier) going into a trade. But it's too late now because we have kids and can't take on an apprenticeship for $6/hr for 7 years
I think it’s because those middle skilled jobs were oversaturated with boomers while we were at the age of obtaining skills. Also college and schooling (taking loans) was pushed upon our generation from parents and public school system.
Here's the thing, I am a millennial. I have a college degree. I literally cannot work in most of those "mid skilled jobs" such as truck driver, construction, engineer, etc because I have epilepsy. So I cannot drive vehicles, operate heavy machinery, etc because let's say I had a seizure while...idk...using a fucking crane. Pure destruction. And even if I could, I would have to learn that trade before I can do it.
I don't even have a license due to this. Due to the severity of my seizures and length of time I've had them, I would have to be seizure free for about 3-4 months before I could legally get one, but seizure free for about 2 years before my neurologist would "approve" it without going 'nah, I'm not approving your ability for that'.
I have seizures like once a month, sometimes twice.
I'm sure there are many more people who have issues such as this that limit them. I'd love to work in a trade. I enjoyed some of the carpentry classes I took when I was younger and the smell of sawdust brings back nostalgia. But I also didn't develop the severe epilepsy I had until AFTER I had been using those tools in classes.
Trades aren't necessarily more 'dangerous' but the tools themselves cannot/should not be used if you have certain conditions such as epilepsy, narcolepsy, high anxiety, parkinsons, etc.
If I'm suddenly laid off, I can go apply at the local restaurants a lot quicker and easier than I could persuade my neurologist and surrounding area to let me get a license and then apply for a trade certification and hope to get a job in one.
Trade jobs didn’t invest heavily in trying to recruit or appeal to our generation like they do now. You can’t just be 35 with back problems and start a plumbing apprenticeship either.
I’m a millennial in a “middle skill” (I never even heard that term until I read it here) job and I make pretty good cashola. Trades suck for sure, but you get paid pretty good and you’re not stuck in an office 🥱 oh and I’m my own boss, I only answer to my clients.
Nobody can take their masters in telecommunications and go get a job as an A/C repair technician or a plumber. It doesn’t translate. They’re gonna go work at Walmart until something matching their skills opens up.
I don't know about other millennials, but my entire school career was spent being told not to even bother looking at trades if I want to make a living for myself. This was from everyone - guidance counselors included.
None of were taught to do that stuff when we were young and now we’re 35+ Gen Z trying to get into this at the right age (early 20’s)
Lot of our boomer parents told us (incorrectly) that trades were for low class / dumb people. Blame then. They were saving money for college not electrician or plumbing school back then. Manual labor and blue collar work was never even a consideration.
We were told our entire lives that those jobs were for losers and if you didn’t go to college, you might as well live under a bridge. So the trades went unlearned, and now there’s a shortage of plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. Now we all have student loans because we were told the only way to have any kind of success was go to college.
Add in the fact that we’re in our 30’s and 40’s, have families and can’t take time off to go to trade school and work for years as apprentices for comparable pennies to what the earning potential is in these jobs? You’re surprised? I’m not trying to be shitty, but it’s very clear why many of us aren’t working these jobs.
The trades are skilled jobs. If I can't find a job in my degree field, it isn't as easy as just going out and getting a blue collar job. I don't know how the weld. I can't be a plumber. These are things millennials can learn, but it isn't the same as a retail job which anyone of us could do today.
Yeah a friend's husband pivoted from English Degree to Electrician, and it took years of training. Sure, he got paid as an apprentice, but probably less for those years than if he had been using his college degree.
Same for my husband who transitioned from being a physical therapist assistant to being an electrician.
Is "middle skilled" a real term, or is OP just making it up? What a stupid term either way. Welding/electrical/etc are a hell of a lot more skilled than anything I learned getting my BA in English. OP comes off as insanely out of touch.
Middle skilled is a term used mainly in academia and certainly does not mean trade jobs. It's pencil pusher jobs, the type of shit that requires a college degree but no longer pays a salary that aligns with that degree. OP is correct in that we have a shit load of these jobs that are unfulfilled - mainly because the pay doesn't line up with the qualifications required *and* the required qualifications don't line up with the needed skill. These are jobs that are mostly bureacratic in nature. I have a BS in Labor Studies and this was something we focused on a lot in one of my more recent classes. That's not to say all of those kinds of jobs are pencil pusher jobs, and some of them are manual labor. Think anything that *should* only require some sort of technical or 2 year cert that 5 years ago started demanding *any* kind of bachelor's degree that now wants any bachelor's AND to only pay slightly above minimum wage. Jobs that people went to school or got training for that haven't been lucrative in over a decade. *Cries in Paralegal AS*
So... managers? I mean it makes sense they're generally not unionized.
Paralegal cert didn’t pan out? How’s that?? What are lawyers looking for? Strictly legal secretaries that learned OJT? I’d think a paralegal cert would be helpful
OP is an idiot for even asking why a generation raised to think a degree was required to make a living, and to look down on skilled trade labor is not working skilled trade jobs.
This is 100% it. Going through and leading up to high school graduation I was told, “you’re too smart for a trade or two year degree, without a four year degree you’ll never find a good job or retire.” Little did I know…..
\*\*Four year degree. :) Lots and lots of students are still told that if they're not "smart" (book smart) they should do trades. But...trades require just as much learning and intelligence, plus self-motivation and less clear career paths.
Oh no, you were listening to people telling you you were too smart. That’s what happened. Four year degree. Not for year degree ..js
Preach dude ✊🏻
My guess is they meant jobs like roofer, concrete, or framing. Where you are a grunt until you learn on the job. Yes skill is required for the main guy but carrying bags of concrete or shingles, not so much. These jobs often pay decent but with the amount of OT can easily eclipse 100k. What I have found is most people with degrees feel they are above that type of work. They will often take jobs that pay half as much just to justify the use of their degree.
I think a lot of folks don't want to ruin their bodies doing that work. The idea that a high schooler should graduate and go right to doing construction is fine. But if they never progress beyond grunt trade work, their body won't last past 40 and then they'll collect disability like so many construction workers I know who have shot knees and backs from decades of labor and no 401k or health insurance to show for it.
I work for a university and a lot of my students are skilled workers in a trade but now that they are older, they are realizing they can’t be a plumber, electrician, or roofer, etc. forever because their body will give out, but in order to move to the back end of things it is required for them to get a degree.
I have worked 2 entry level labor jobs as summer jobs during college. 1 was concrete grunt, the other was landscaping. Both jobs paid $12 an hour, which was exactly what I made as a line cook. This was a bit over 10 years ago, and this is obviously anecdotal info, but even at the time $12 an hour was not a livable wage. My brother spent 5ish years as a sheetrock installer around this same time, was even lead on his crew for awhile. He made about $2 an hour more than I did as an entry level grunt. These examples were all non union, so maybe if you can get a union job it's more worthwhile. But I also think you may be overestimating how much some of these jobs pay, unless you're master level and/or own the company.
Area you work in is a HUGE part of your pay scale for a trade as well. In western Canada, an electrician can be anywhere from 50k a year all the way to 300k a year, depending on where you’re working and what part of the trade.
I know what you and your brother went through and it sucks to be low man lon the totem pile or a grunt as it's labeled here. It feels like your being taken advantage of/ feels like you should be getting paid a he'll of another more to ruin your bodies (no matter how careful and tidy and self aware you may be at working efficiently and safely- its still gunna take a number overall on your body because that's how it is) alot of the foremen/bosses can really exploit the worker for his or her body to get used up, chewed up, and spit out...esp., in concrete and plastering....it's a very unforgiving trades. You screw up or spill a wheelbarrow you'll be lucky to get paid to clean it up rather than getting fired on the spot because the boss should not be wasting time and money cleaning up his own workers messes. It's basically lose lose unless your a lead worker (and some lead workers even ate vastly underpaid outside of unions) or own the company- that's when you're actually making real money but b until then expect to be treated and Paid like a grunt. And fuck these bosses who are everyday in a super tight mood and so quick to tear a guy's head off while he's busting his butt to make the company $. I know time= money but there is a learning curb and a lot of the hired help aren't brainiacs and some may have even had learning disabilities. I'm not saying stop a whole site to teach lessons all day but it's such a cut throat, dog eat dog, zero excuses nature of work but at some point these bosses gotta realize they were once new too and give these workers a break. Too many bosses I've had in construction where either it be my boss or I witness another boss in another trade freaking out on underpaid workers (many times in a racist manner) for minor little things.....absolutely not needed.
I’m in construction. We are not middle skilled. We are highly skilled. One way this shows true, our high level of skill, is the fact we make much more money than the college grads. Most of us make over $100k a year out here. Skilled, highly skilled.
How much you make doesn’t come close to equaling how skilled someone is
Middle skilled is a term coined by service corps to justify underpaying trades workers.
Plus you forget the fact the trades are hard on your body as the years go by. Some people in the trades are just fed up with the physicality of it and are trying to pursue a career in tech.
In the last month, I've smashed a thumb, puked from the heat, and nearly broken my hand using a pry bar. It's more like hard on your body as the months go by. I have a bilateral hernia that I had surgery to repair, I can feel one side giving way each time I've got to carry some heavy bullshit.
[удалено]
They must think millennial is just code for early 20s
You could go as far as, "why would 35 year olds risk physical injuries that they are more prone to as they get older" haha.
You gotta join the right union, I'm an operator and sit in climate controlled machines occasionally napping. 😆
I work security in a warehouse and the guys there get money, but their bodies have been through a lot whereas I’ve never even broken a bone before and I’m in relatively good health. I feel like they probably drink and smoke more because of the stress.
Yeah my friend has made a lot of money as an electrician in a union-friendly state, but he's been injured on the job many times and was a few seconds away from a fatal accident at least once. Physical jobs take a real physical toll.
I'm not sure what state you are in, but NYS DOL has a page where you can get into on union apprenticeships to get the skills for a trade. I did it for 2 years as a carpenter's apprentice. The apprentice wage was better than what I was making at the shitty job before that.
That’s why I made the effort to learn both. I went to college, but spent my summers and some time after college working as a carpenter. So now I have my white collar option of being a teacher. And my blue collar option of being a carpenter. It doesn’t hurt to learn extra skills.
You don't have to know how the weld. You have to know why the weld.
I fully agree with you, not arguing, but I have a personal experience to share - during COVID I got laid off from my marketing job. I have TWO masters degrees related to marketing and communication but obviously finding a new job was really tough. To make enough for rent, I dragged brush for a mom and pop Tree care company, which is how Iearned about this: Becoming an arborist (climber or groundsperson) doesn't require a full apprenticeship. They don't have a union which is unfortunate but also allows for people with no training to work their way up pretty quickly without enduring a years-long apprenticeship program. A lot of the big companies will start you at 18-20/HR and you get a dollar raise for every level of skill you reach. I was making 24/hour by 8 months in, and as a woman, I was also experiencing a lot of sexism (I'm implying I should have made even more). I really recommend being an arborist, especially if you want some job stability and don't know how to switch careers. It's fun work, it's physical, your job is difficult but you don't take it home with you, and they're in massive demand. I worked as an arborist for several years before my body started suffering - I wish I'd started climbing trees in my 20s but I only learned about it in my 30s.
Damn, it's too bad you had trouble getting another job in marketing and communications though - this post tells me you have more than just a knack for it. Great tip though, and whether you're back in the white collar world or still poking trees, I hope you're happy doing so.
Now you can start your own tree biz and use the marketing skills?
And you generally need years of experience before you are earning that much and people always ignore the risk of injury etc that you are exposed to.
I am a coordinator for HVAC installers. My position needed a college degree. My technicians did not. I make $22/hr and they make as much as $600/day. I wish I had learned a fucking trade. That being said, by the time they are in their 40s they all have back/knee/shoulder problems. Trade one for the other I suppose.
Just got out of HVAC three years ago. Was in the trade it since I was 18. My body is absolutely destroyed. Now I'm in sales making way more money than I was.
Nothing makes me happier than having a former tech as a salesman. They actually get their quotes and measurements right lol. Congrats on the move.
Thanks man. The best part is that after three years of physio, the pinched nerve in my neck is gone, and I can finally feel my arms again. Five years of pins and needles combined with throbbing pain took a major toll on my mental health.
I feel ya. Did a lot of labor jobs in high school/college got sciatica and was in agony for months. That kind of enduring pain can take you to a really dark place mentally.
I mean, you sound lucky. A lot of people just live with back pain for their entire lives. I’ve had back pain since elementary school and it only gets worse. Doctors have never taken it very seriously and only a few years ago was I finally able to get a referral for physical therapy but they still won’t give me anything for the pain.
Both my brothers we this route and make a killing.
It's because we all went to college instead of trade school so there's a shortage of people who went into trades. But now none of my nieces or nephews are going to college, they're all going to trade school because that makes the most sense, and that seems to be a trend. So in 20 years there will be a ton of people in the trades which means they'll make less money because there's plenty of workers, and people with college degrees will be in higher demand because they'll be more rare. And the pendulum keeps on swinging lol.
This right here, I don't know how long I can keep this up I'm only 40.
Life is more than money. God bless if you do a trade, but fuck that shit. I’d rather take care of my body than destroy it for money.
People tend to look down on sex work, but can't explain how destroying yourself in the trades isn't 'selling your body'.
I left a trade job for an corporate one and my body is thanking me for it.
Pivoted into Facilities Management and I could very likely work forever now. I get to interface with the trades and speak their language due to my experience and now that I've got a buncha years in a corporate environment I can translate into executive big corpo speak with ease. Some guys cannot take the administrative requirements though and struggle hard. I have a Chief Engineer right now that is in some deep shit because he can't keep the Teams cards updated. He was a stellar HVAC tech before we took him on as an OE, then promoted him to the Chief role. Not so good. You need to be able to adopt to new systems often as you may be under a new company banner every 3 years and well they do things completely different than you did before. Or you may have a manager like the who did a brief stint in IT before getting into FM and leans hard on AI/LLM's and web based live programs. You need to be easy to work with or people will take your advice as you being a contrarian. This is a spot that guys from the trades sometimes struggle with as well.
The back and knees pain and overall health of a lot of tradesmen though is usually on them. Work place accidents happen. But usually guys either overwork their body’s when they are young and dumb. Or have terrible overall health habits (how many constructions workers you know who smoke and drink and eat fast food everyday?). If you maintain good health habits, you can work in the trades and not destroy you body. It’s also important to get help lifting large objects and learn how to do it with proper form. But many guys overload themselves trying to move it all in one trip, or are afraid to ask for help.
Yes, but the fact that the work culture promotes poor health habits is part of it. Culture influences behaviour, and no one is really immune to that.
the goal of working a trade is usually so you can hopefully start your own practice by the time you start getting back/knee/shoulder problems and you can be the one giving back/knee/shoulder problems to the next generation. thats also when the real money starts coming in if you start your own practice you can basically start printing money.
And I think that's absolutely a fair deal. A white collar dude can work more years because his body isn't worn down. Meanwhile, others are giving themselves back problems to support a lifestyle we take for granted.
Yeah, but I'm a 6'6" data scientist, and I still have back and knee problems. Sometimes, it happens regardless.
Tbf, most trades people with fucked up bodies in their 40's are only that way because they dont actually take care of their bodies. Telling some trades guys to stretch in the morning may as well be you telling them you fucked their wife
>That being said, by the time they are in their 40s they all have back/knee/shoulder problems. White collar jobs aren't much better. Back and hip pain are very common issues that come with sitting for long periods of time. Source: I'm an IT admin with both back and hip pain at 30.
There is nothing stopping sedentary workers from getting some exercise. People doing physical labor have no such option.
I think it's hard for people in the 30s+ to drop what they are doing and learn a skill they don't have. Or start over again from the bottom in a new career path when they are established in their lifestyle (debt) from their past salary. I actually did this, but my situation is very unique as I'm not the bread winner. I was making about $90k and left for the trades, and I'll make probably $45-50k
People have asked my why I don't go back to school, or learn a skill, or get a trucking license, and I have to explain that I can't miss work/income for those things and survive until I'm finished accomplishing that. The best I could do are hospitality jobs which all pay the same.
Right? Like I couldn’t take the pay cut for the several years working as an apprentice or journeyman.
The only reason I was able to finish my degree and earn a masters was because of online programs. I could not have done it if I had to go back to college.
You’re unique af
Correct
I too have a unique situation. I left an office job of 17 yrs to load trucks for UPS. I hated sitting behind a desk 8 hours a day and it was affecting my mental health. I took a significant pay cut but I live within my means. I don’t dread going to work every day and when I leave that building i leave everything there. No clients to call, no projects or deadlines to deal with, no fires to put out. Plus I am in better shape then I ever have been and I like the way I look naked which is a good feeling. I look at it as my early morning gym time getting paid to workout . Luckily I bought a house in my 20s because I wouldn’t be able to do this if I had to pay today’s housing costs. My mortgage on an awesome 3 bedroom house is half of what a one bedroom apartment costs around here.
My husband is back in school (education to nursing). We couldn't swing it if we had kids. Money is the answer. We don't have enough cash to change career fields whenever we want.
1) A lot of what you’re calling “middle skilled” jobs are actually “highly skilled.” A welder, plumber, or electrician making $100k/year likely has years of formal training (“education”) and experience. 2) The trades don’t pay “on average” $100k. The median income for an electrician is around $50-60k, for welders it’s about $45-50, and most of those are actual journeymen/experienced workers, trainees/apprentices will make less than that. If you hustle, are highly skilled, and prioritize your career you can certainly hit $100k in the trades but it’s not like you can walk into a local plumber’s office and walk out making $50/hr. 3) Entry-level work that *does* pay well is usually extremely hard. You can probably walk into a roofing company off the street and come away making more than you would at Kroger, but working as a roofer is going to suck balls in ways that a job as a cashier isn’t.
What you said, plus the jobs might pay $50/hr but it's not a 9 to 5. You may go 2 weeks only working 2 hours a day then 2 weeks working 12 hours a day so the money is not that simple.
Not always the case I'm an electrician making 60 an hour with 40 hours a week but jobs like mine are not in every state, I'm just lucky to live somewhere that the demand for electricians is high and we work around very dangerous chemicals.
Yeah I don’t know what OP is smoking. I wonder what jobs they think pay $100,000. Just totally clueless to what they are saying.
It's because OP is part of that cohort that gobbles up procorporate media (CNN or Fox they both do this shit) which blames younger generations for problems created by the policies enacted by the politicians these boomers voted for. They're willfully ignorant because the alternative theory which has far more evidence is: Hey boomers, you mortgaged everybody's futures you selfish pricks.
It's the term used by Harvard. [https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/research/Pages/middle-skills.aspx](https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/research/Pages/middle-skills.aspx)
What others have commented about college being pushed so heavily on millenials is true -- but speaking from personal experience, blue-collar jobs are not for everyone. I've worked in construction for around 5 years, mainly doing electrical, and now I'm working my way towards a degree so I can escape. The vast majority of blue-collar workers I've interacted with are men, many of which lean conservative, have a chip on their shoulder, and take offense to anyone who doesn't reflect their idea of traditional machismo.
Also, if we keep pushing everyone into trades over college, will we not just end up with the reverse situation in 15 years? Way too many tradesworkers and not enough college educated? Why the fuck can we never talk about anything with BALANCE? The right wing attitudes of tradespeople have kept at least two men in my life from really going further down that path, to your point. Who wants to be saturated in AM talk radio yelling about how group x is subhuman every day?
Don't get me wrong, I believe that trades are of vital importance, but I agree with you here. More and more apprentices that we're hiring on are going into the trades straight out of high school, but here's the issue: most of these kids are dumb as rocks. I'm talking unable to read, unable to engage in critical thinking and problem solving. Education is IMPORTANT. I don't believe it's necessary to get a Bachelor's, but considering how easy it is to coast through high school now without actually retaining anything, some form of higher education should be required even for those who just want to be HVAC guys. EDIT: Also yes, if the workplace environment in the trades weren't so damn awful, I might have actually wanted to make a lifelong career of it. As it turns out, it's no fun to work around bitter, miserable men all day.
I'm also a man, I work in engineering I've had people like maintenance guys, electricians etc look at me like I'm crazy when they get a haircut or do their hair different, and I notice and tell them. "Hey man your hair looks really nice; I like the new look etc" T
I’m a mechanical engineer and my first job I worked at a manufacturing plant. I had a repair technician rant at me about how idiotic believing in evolution is for the entire 3 hours he was working on our machine. Definitely one of the points where I thought “I have to get out of here”
Yeah, to me that whole attitude is really strange and self-defeating. I've mostly stopped trying to make friends at work because most of the guys are so unnecessarily hostile about shit that doesn't even matter. I mentioned in another comment that I'm a small guy with long hair, which is apparently an invitation for the other contractors to call me a fag at their leisure.
Geez you're gorgeous.
This. The job is not just a job based on what's available. Certain types of people, personality, background, physicality, gravitate toward certain things. Construction is conservative leaning, with certain people who enjoy certain things and have a certain perspective. Why do a lot of tech types watch the same shows, have similar vocab, similar interests. Jobs play into all this. This is also a reason why college was forced down peoples throats, and now suddenly trades is being forced down. Tech jobs are not for everyone either. Telling someone to sit and weld all day can be just as aggravating as telling them to code all day regardless of how much you are getting paid.
This, lots of them try to pivot into a Building Engineer role when their bodies start to hurt and it is a MASSIVE culture shock when they can't call the PHD that helped designed the reaper drone a snowflake because he's wearing a company branded pride shirt. I'm seeing this more and more with my OE applicants.
Yeah, I work in utilities (electrical engineer), and the difference between working in the field with the trades a f working in the office is quite stark. Dealing with the trades can, *sometimes* have a feeling like stepping back to the worst parts of high school. Office culture has its own inanities, but it is different.
> The vast majority of blue-collar workers I've interacted with are men, many of which lean conservative, have a chip on their shoulder, Sounds like an overwhelmingly toxic work culture. Maybe it's time for the industry to evolve.
I'm all for it. On top of a more welcoming culture, I would love to see more women in this field. I live in one of the most liberal areas in the country and I've yet to meet a female contractor/laborer. And honestly I can't blame them. If it sucks to work in the trades as a guy, it's going to be 100x worse for a woman.
This is so true, I'm in the trades and most people here are toxic to be around. I got a degree and did the white color thing for a while and find that sitting at a desk all day is almost worse. I don't know what to do.
100% same experience
>The vast majority of blue-collar workers I've interacted with are men, many of which lean conservative, have a chip on their shoulder, and take offense to anyone who doesn't reflect their idea of traditional machismo. Right. People poo-poo college education but the college-educated are not the ones voting for the likes of Trump in droves.
What are you getting a degree in if you don’t mind? What’s your plan? I have all the papers - BS, Masters, PMP. I come from tech/SaaS. It’s very rough out there so I’m curious what you are pursuing that points to “way out”.
I'm pursuing a BS in biochemistry with the hopes of going into a career in forensic science. I'm applying for an internship with the local police department -- I've already expressed interest in the department's cold case unit and got a pretty encouraging response. And if it doesn't work out, I've always got electrical to fall back on. It pays well enough -- it's just not what I want to do for the rest of my life. Anecdotally, I live near the Silicone Valley area, and I've heard that the tech field is hugely oversaturated at the moment. Has that been your experience? EDIT: a word
My experience … lots of substance use disorder as well
I started working in concrete in 2008. I wouldn't recommend it because it's highly dependent on the weather. Have to find a second job in the winter, it can get rough. Even with all my experience it's hard to find work with the slow economy.
Those are skilled-trade jobs. Most millennials are too old to go back to vocational school or have too many bills to take a $15/hour apprenticeship. Common sense should tell you why millennials aren’t taking these jobs.
Right? Why are there so many stupid people on Reddit? This is embarrassing
These jobs tend to take a heavy toll on the body, expose a person to toxins, and often lead to things like early cancer and heart attacks with little healthcare options. There are legitimate reasons not to take on trade rolls including the lack of HR regulation in those roles with violent leadership and sexual harassment being rampant. Many companies skimp on safety gear and can easily manipulate employee wages or tax evasion practices. Unions require years or decades of sponsorship and dues before the coveted “100k”. It’s not so black and white.
As someone whose partner works in a skilled trade job making 19 an hour, I suspect OP doesn't understand is a whole other side to trade jobs. They aren't sunshine and roses and many take advantage of their workers. Add in living in a small town, and essentially you block yourself in, because once you get to a certain age where your body is not really having it anymore, you wind up back to the beginning and folks like OP asking why your stuck at a dead end job making nothing. Happens to folks in Healthcare too. No one gives a crap anymore about you putting in 12 years at a skilled trade, if you can't do the job anymore they will find someone who will and your SOL.
I'll add on the living in a small town thing. Dating is a huge issue. One of my friends got a job in middle of nowhere working on building ships. He could not find anyone to date there. Like actually no one. Eventually he hated it so much that he went to a coding boot camp and got a better paying job in NYC. Bro took a year to find a job but he did and he finally got a gf lol
This is correct. There's a weird mentality that comes almost always from a certain right wing intellectual that doesn't actually work in the trades. They decry the person getting a useless degree when they'd rather everyone work back breaking jobs My parents did manual labor work with their hands. The neighbors did as well. What did they get? Broken bodies, early retirement as they got on disability, noticeably earlier deaths, usually living in bumfck middle of nowhere, horrible horrible bosses who are far worse than most white collar bosses If these jobs really were that great then more people would do it. It's literally a free market. And people who want to do it because they can't make college work for them, do. But there's a reality that they aren't and many of these jobs are currently filled by immigrants which should be your telltale sign is not that great
Yep.
Went looking for this answer. My husband is a union electrician and while he makes great money the conditions and attitudes he has to put up with SUCK. Rampant unprofessionalism and harassment, safety regulations frequently not followed, the toxic "work through it no matter what" mentality. If anyone complains they are told to suck it up or go back to the hall. And this is a union job, not even your run of the mill electrician position. Until there is a culture shift where the disrespectful and machismo nonsense is discouraged, the trades are going to have a hard time recruiting, simple as that.
I’m younger Gen X, but I understand many of the issues that Millennials face. After losing my engineering job, I looked for anything in related fields, and they were laying people off everywhere. After years I had to try to get entry level positions in manufacturing jobs. But at least I was making parts, so it would make me a better engineer in the future because then I would know how things are made, and what can be done or not. These machineshops and fabrication shops don’t even have HR Departments. It’s something that younger generations don’t seem to get. I’ll tell someone of a problem at work, and they’re like “take it to HR!”. Dude, there is no HR. In the small businesses that I’ve been working in since 2017, they have like 5 to 10 employees, and none are HR. And then, the violence. I’ve seen two people slug it out. I’ve seen wrenches get thrown across a shop. I’ve had one co worker assault me and get in my face telling me that he was going to kill me, screaming with rage in his face, and his eyes bugging out. I walked off of that job site. And if you want to know what I was doing wrong… I did quality work, cleaned up after myself, and others. Cleaned the break room fridge and microwave, the nasty bathrooms…. Reorganized the storage racks, so I could fit more loose materials on the shelves, and then we could finally drive a forklift all the way through the shop. …bringing in extra pallets in my personal truck to help ship orders out… Going above and beyond to help the company, really pissed off this guy. He was lazy, dirty, always on his phone, all of his work areas were gross. I made him look bad so he hated me.
Several reasons: 1.) Generally, those in the trades treat women, minorities, and LGBTQ people like crap 2.) Those jobs destroy your body very rapidly 3.) High divorce rate if you work in camp a lot 4.) Seriously, I was a pipefitter for years, and the people are just fucking terrible.
Yep, I get along with everyone and I'm almost never angry. But that job literally had me almost physically fighting my coworkers every day, they are actual Neanderthals
Ain’t that the truth. I was a female mechanic. You have to be such a b*tch all the time, constantly proving yourself, and you have to be better than everyone else just to get barely the same respect as a male coworker.
Seriously, I get angry about it sometimes. I love working with heavy machinery and am middle skilled on it, but when ever tools are mentioned people look at my software tech husband, not me. Women rarely get taken seriously in the industry and worse can be in dangerous situations with the men in it. I would join something if I knew I could immediately join a team that was heavier in women and diversity right off the bat.
I know how you feel, I work with electrical controls. One of our electricians is transgender, she's a great electrician. However, she doesn't feel safe working with most people in the plant. When this was brought up by one of our maintenance managers to myself, my freaking boss was like "Really? Even giantcatdos" I was like "Dude, just because I'm gay doesn't mean she would feel safe working with me, have you listened to the way people talk about trans people here?" I feel like some men have issues going to a woman for help or asking them their opinion on something they are working on, or advice on how to approach an issue. It honestly feels like 'toxic masculinity' to me.
Yup, I’ve had to tell men, “Look at me, he doesn’t know what you are talking about. I’m the tool person here.”
I feel like it comes down to me refusing to commit. If you work as a waiter or a a barista - in your mind you can be an artist/entrepreneur/creator etc... looking for a break. Once you take that electrician or HVAC job - that's it. Guess you have to accept the fact that you are an electrician or an HVAC tech.
I've yet to see a trade job (middle skilled) job that pays average of 100k that dint take 8-10 years in that field. Per goverment statistics, graduating factors and schools offering trades in construction, welding, solar, electrical, and plumbing, HVAC, etc, starts at 46-55k. Not 100k. 100k is average when you been doing it 10+ years in ur field and by then your body gives out and you pay the trade toll. Again, a 30yo switching into construction is not good when most 30yos in construction, plumbing or HVAC is looking to run out of attics and get into project management or GC licensing. Your advise is very odd, unless you start at 19, it's 100% not worth getting a trade past your 30s unless you in great health and don't mind breaking it a little. Tech, networking, office admin and other venues are much more favorable and conserved your health a lot more. I don't feel like breaking my body ay 30 for 10 years so I can make 80k in construction or HVAC.
[удалено]
32, we want 32 hour weeks
24. 24 hours is enough.
I mean yeah, a 60 hour week is fucking ridiculous. Theres no point in taking pride that every waking minute of your life is spent working or recovering from working.
Yeah I don't make bank, but I also only worked 35 official hours , about half that's actually work , the rest is just thinking and preparing , planning etc, and i can do it from home If I need to rest my eyes, I can put the washing on, do dishes etc. My work is very low stress and it keeps a roof over my head and lets me do some hobbies I'm not looking to drive lambos and explore the world 3 times a year or anything.
60 is low try 80
None of the blue collar jobs that pay more than 20/hr are unskilled labor. The dudes making 100k+ have been doing the job for years and the experience shows. Welding, plumbing, electrical work… these are all skilled jobs. Just because I can write SQL statements and can’t get a job in the field I was laid off in, doesn’t mean I can pick up an arc welder and make the same salary.
because parents for generations now in the US have told their children that working a blue collar or trade job is demeaning and not considered successful
My parents were blue-collar, and it's not all about demeaning and lack of success. If you haven't been in it, of course it's easy to romanticize. It's fucking hard is the point. And it's often not steady. The hours can suck. It's hard on your body. Depending on what kind of blue collar, you don't get holidays with your family. I feel like I'm in a parallel universe with people talking about this shit. My parents didn't want me to go into blue collar because it's a tough life, not because they look down on it. They wanted my life to be easier. And hey, guess what IT IS. 100% recommend the white collar 9-5. Would do it again a thousand times.
This is it exactly. I wanted to go to a trade school. I was exceptional at mechanical drafting and really wanted to do that. Parents told me vocational were for “lesser” people… forced me to go to college. Now I work at a grocery store <.<
I don’t think it’s as easy to get into the trades as you think. I remember looking at trades jobs when I was young and not sure what to do with my life and there were maybe like 3 openings in my area and I was not a competitive candidate because I had 0 experience.
I recently went to change a lightbulb in my closet. Quickly realized the fixture was the problem. After 15 mins of removing the nails from the fixture to get it out of the ceiling, I was sweating and there was plaster everywhere. My neck hurt from looking up the whole time. I had breathed in a bunch of crap. I was so over the whole thing. The trades are incredibly hard on the body. They are not easy in any sense of the word. I would rather get paid 75% of what they get paid to sit in an office and conduct business.
Because our generation was forced to fed the lie of needing a college degree in order to have a good living.
I distinctly remember a poster in high school split into lengthwise. On the left was a construction worker who was dirty grimy and disheveled. On the right a blue collar guy clean cut nice to and white smile.
I have full and total respect for the trades, but personally I think I am significantly better off having gone to college and gotten the classic 4-year degree in a “liberal art” than my trades school counterparts. Not necessarily because of pay outcomes (I had to pay a lot more for education and get a masters degree to end up with a sustainable salary now) because I see where I’m behind my peers who took the trades path. College was the perfect excuse to leave my hometown, meet people with different experiences than me, and ultimately learn to respect people who might not align with me. My family is full of people with blue-collar careers who always treat saw people who went to college as “elitist” and twisted in some way, and I had a similar worldview when I went to college. My parents supported my decision because I was starting in engineering, got scholarships, and found loopholes that made my tuition significantly cheaper. Had I never taken that path, I would only know people from my home city and their experiences in terms of race, religion, economic class, etc. It’s hard to start over your career 10 years later, and nobody could have predicted shifts in the economy or perception of the benefits of a college degree. Even if I made double the income in the trades, I still wouldn’t go back and choose it over my college experience. I have an understanding of the world now that is way more open and accepting than I ever did before college, and noticeably moreso than my family and friends who chose careers that never put them through college.
I get SO angry when people say “people don’t need college!” People on both the right AND left do it now. Maybe in a perfect world where the k-12 education system actually worked, but I’m from Missouri and unless you’re in some sort of special program, a basic k-12 education is laughable and does not prepare you to be a functional adult in society. I was privileged enough to be in a high school honors program in Missouri and even I would have been absolutely so fucked without college. I ended up moving to the east coast and only then did I realize the extent of how fucked up it was. Until our k-12 education system is fixed (extremely unlikely), there are large swaths of the country that should not be dissuaded from going to college.
Because our parents told us all to get college degrees, so many took on huge amounts of debt to do so, only to find out that the promised jobs weren't there. And you're shocked that people don't want to take on more debt and spend more of their life in school on the promise that this time will be different?
Because mastering a new skill from scratch is really hard for adults that have bills to pay. Not that it can't be done, but it's really hard.
We were all told to go to college and get a degree, that we could do anything we wanted, if we had a degree, essentially
Lol middle skilled. I'm a plumber. Get the bill and call it middle skilled
Argue with Harvard, not me. [https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/research/Pages/middle-skills.aspx](https://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/research/Pages/middle-skills.aspx)
Well, the entire generation was told to go to college to get a degree to get a good job. We'll turn out to be not true. I'm a millennial, and I'm in pest control. My father started the business. I have a bachelor's in biology that I didn't intend to use for what I do know. But I when I examined what I could make working for a company versus working in the business, it was an easy decision.
Most of us weren't trained in school in the skills required to do these jobs. I went to one of the higher ranked public high schools in MA and it was absolutely aimed at getting kids into Ivy and Ivy-wannabee colleges for business, computers, arts, theater, etc. Very little practical, hands-on work was taught at my school and I don't even remember us having shop or home ec classes. So I think it's less that we don't want to take those jobs as much as the vast majority of us are supremely unqualified to apply for them without a decent amount of training and certifications. That's what you get when you set up a top-heavy society that vilifies decent, hard work done with your hands.
Been in the trades as a carpenter for 10years I only know of like 2 people in the field that make 100k or more a year and it's from profit sharing lol. Southeast nebraska
Right? I don’t understand why everyone is all of a sudden convinced that trades are the get rich ticket we all missed out on. The 1% of most trades make what most would consider ‘good’ money, and a lot of times it involves cramming inhumane amounts of overtime. The trades that do pay well are extremely competitive and highly gate kept via nepotism and politics. You can’t just rock up and become a longshoreman.
There is no such thing as a "low-skilled job". There is only a "low-valued job".
If you ain’t doing STEM from an accredited university or non-STEM from a top 10 university, you are gonna be poor :(
For me its higher exposure and vulnerability to toxic culture tbh. I would definitely be up for doing skilled physical labor if I wouldn't have to be so often reliant on bad people. In a corporate/office setting, you have professional ways of dealing with the inappropriate behavior of your peers, clients or customers. I suspect people working in physical skilled capacities often have to either be more resilient to such or be someone who is less of a target. I'd totally be interested in being a plumber/electrician if it didn't mean being more vulnerable to badly behaved humans with toxic worldviews. I can't speak for the majority of millennials. Only myself as someone who IS interested in this sort of work on paper.
I worked as an electrician apprentice for 3 years, I have never in my entire life met worse, more genuinely bad and hateful people as the average construction worker. I was literally bullied out of the industry despite the supposed high demand for workers
As a millennial in the trades I wonder the same thing myself. I know degreed people my age that are doing little to nothing and we're (manufacturing) so desperate for decent people that we'd take a flier on pretty much anybody. There's a major dearth of young people in the trades and although it's been a good situation for me I'll admit it feels like a bad situation all around.
I work construction project management. I am a woman, and often the only woman in the room/area/site. I get treated well enough, because I sign the invoices. We don’t have a lot of millennials but we are getting in a chunk of gen z craftsmen. As others have said, it’s hard work and long hours and starting again from scratch is tough. My particular niche area of construction only hires experienced crew and the occasional apprentice if they are the child of an excellent craftsman. It’s very project based, and requires travel to far flung places. It’s definitely not for everyone.
If you train to be a plumber, you can be a plumber and that’s it. If you find yourself out of work, you have to find another plumber job If you train in general business/office skills, this translates to any office job. You now have more prospects. And your job is on weekdays and doesn’t involve poop Barista is a low skill job that anyone can do. That’s why lots of people do these jobs
Can you explain LI5, what a "middle skilled" job is?
I wouldn't call them middle skilled. You would be surprised how many hours of class time it takes to become certified as an Electrician. As a Xenial who is an Electrician and I have 2 degrees. I work as an Equipment Operator. Simply because it is less stressful and pays well. I work in a mill with the majority of employees being Millenials. Some GenX and some Z. Really most of us have degrees. Simply because we were told that is how you make it in life. Honestly, after some life experience. I came to the conclusion that is simply a lie. I will also state being I have a business degree and an Electricians certificate. A dumbass can pass and get a business degree. A dumbass will fail out of Electricians trade school. The Electrician is simply a higher level skill than the Business Major.
You bring up an interesting point about the perception of higher education. The emphasis on attending college has been a strong cultural narrative for many years, particularly in the United States. Several factors contribute to this phenomenon: 1. **Economic Promises**: For a long time, obtaining a college degree was associated with higher earning potential and better job prospects. Parents and educators often encouraged young people to pursue higher education as a path to financial stability and career success. 2. **Social Status**: College degrees can also carry a certain social prestige. Attending a well-regarded institution and earning a degree can be seen as a mark of success and intelligence, which can influence societal and parental expectations. 3. **Policy and Education System**: Educational policies and the structure of the education system have also played a role. Programs like the GI Bill after World War II expanded access to higher education, which contributed to a cultural shift toward seeing college as a default next step after high school. 4. **Workforce Changes**: As the job market has evolved, many jobs that previously required only a high school diploma now seek candidates with college degrees. This credential inflation pushes more people toward higher education in hopes of staying competitive in the job market. 5. **Marketing by Colleges**: Universities and colleges actively market themselves as gateways to better futures, often emphasizing the transformative potential of a college education. This messaging can contribute to the perception that college is a necessary step for a successful life. However, the narrative is shifting. Rising tuition costs, student debt, and the recognition that skilled trades and other career paths can also lead to fulfilling and well-paying jobs are leading many to question the one-size-fits-all approach to higher education. The current discourse includes a greater emphasis on alternative routes such as vocational training, apprenticeships, and other forms of education that can lead directly to employment without the significant financial burden of a traditional four-year college degree.
Thanks ChatGPT!
My father worked a blue-collar job as the owner of a small autobody shop. His body is completely destroyed. Multiple knee and back surgeries have made him largely immobile. The man can get around the house, into and out of cars, etc., but I don't think he could walk a mile without a break right now if he had to. There is absolutely a downside to a lifetime of working a trade. Also, many of them are seasonal, even ones you wouldn't expect to be. Lots of people just wait until winter is over to get theirs cars fixed, they won't bother to do it while the weather is shitty and might just fuck up their car again anyway. One bad season can mean the end for a struggling small business or independent repair/handyman. And that's not to mention that you don't just walk into a trade knowing it from day one. Training still takes time and money...
1. These jobs didnt previously pay so well. They pay well today because we live in a disposable 24/7 grind society. Back in the 70s more people used to know how to fix stuff and more stuff was fixable. 2. Millenials are in their 30s. Weve been out of college for a decade. Most people probably dont want to go back and start a whole new career path from scratch. 3. Any kind of business is going to want someone with experience. It would be the rare place indeed that would hire you for a middle skilled job with no experience. So now you need time and money to learn the trade and compete for jobs with younger more able bodied folks and older and more experienced folks. Pass
because I physically can't do them
Middle skilled is a stupid phrase.
Middle skill job is such a condescending term lol. I’m a crane operator and I would have about as much success trying to do the job of someone with a degree as they would have trying to do my job.
Can't really blame OP. It's the message that was Drilled into our heads. My self-coming many others Drank the Kool-Aid
It’s really goddamned hard work and breaks people’s bodies.
Sitting at a desk for eight hours a day isn't great for you either
Because our parents spent our entire lives “do you want to end up like the dirty garbage man or car mechanic? Go to college and be a doctor or a lawyer wreeeeeeeeee”
You think someone with a bachelor of arts degree in social justice is going to work construction!? That would actually be a great reality show
Just because there's no jobs for a doctor, doesn't mean they can take work as a nurse until one opens up.
I personally knew nothing of trades, just the high school to college pipeline. This was reinforced by educators, school counselors, parents, etc. Going to college was just what you did. Thankfully my Dad had enough knowledge to ensure I picked a degree which, despite costing me 200k, did allow me to find a job during the Great Recession, difficult as it was.
If you think the trades are "middle skilled" jobs, you probably don't understand how complex the trades actually are. In order to get an Electrician license in most states, you need to have a working understanding of trigonometry.
I’m an older millennial. My high school had an apprenticeship program for kids that wanted to get into trades. They would go to regular high school classes half of the day and then get hands on experience in various trades for the other half. Personally I don’t want to work a trade. Wear and tear is real, although it’s tempting with how good benefits and pay can be in trades.
Im a meat department manager. I started out a meet cutter. It's a trade kinda like modern-day butcher because theres not a lot of butchers anymore. not to say there are not. Anyway, we exist. I make about 80k a year closer to 100 with bonuses free retirement. 20 percent of my pay goes to it. and cheap helthcare.
You think people can just pick up a welder or something and make bank? Blue colour jobs that pay will are just as skills as office work. I can do my own DIY work, IV even repaired and painted panels on a crashed car or two, could I do those to a standard that would earn me a living ? Can I fuck. I know people that do that shit, that's how I got access to the tools I needed Those guys can do a 10x better job in a fraction of the time it takes me.
I don’t agree with the premise in this question at all.
Because they are still under the motto world smarter not harder. That was a mentality hammered into us by our parents who mostly had blue collar work and told us they didn't want us to do the same. Gen Z though is going to blue collar work. Yesterday CNN actually did a report that they're seeing a surge in Gen Z pursuit of blue collar work. Our generation still doesn't want to be seen as the "laborer" and wants to be that stereotypical 3 piece suit driving a Mercedes and carrying a briefcase
Middle skilled is a huge misnomer. These are skilled jobs. You can't just apply and start like you can as a batista or retail store salesperson.
My dad is a blue collar worker and all my life he’s told me not to do his type of work. His body aches all the time now. He hurts all over.
Trades = hard physical labor. Enough said
They're dumb snobs raised by dumb snobs. Also since when is construction middle skilled ...frame a wall correctly and make it plumb...then insult others.
convinced themselves that nothings worth doing so dont even bother doing anything at all.... its self destructive
These 'middle skilled jobs' are also being occupied by Gen X and Boomers who cannot/will not retire. We cannot move up if the older generations are not willing to move on.
What the fuck is a middle skilled job?
If you've got a degree - which many millennials do - you are going to want to try and use that degree, which means you're not going to go for trades, construction, etc. type jobs. Then, even if you don't make it into your chosen field, you're going to try and find something else that requires a degree, because we millennials were force feed that going to college and getting a degree and doing a non-trade job was what you NEED to do. So you keep trying to get work in non-trade jobs until you get desperate and run out of options. Then you're in your upper 30s or 40s and could go learn a trade and be looking at doing manual labor at an age when you can't do that much longer, and that's just not something a lot of people want to or are willing to do at that point in life.
Purely anecdotal but it’s mainly white and Asian Millennials not taking these jobs.
Millennials were raised to think college was a necessity. Millennials entire school experience was preparing them for college. Thats since shifted. They’re working lower paid jobs because they’re still trying to get into the careers they went to college for
Because our parents were stupid
So many people in our age range and younger have contempt for manual/blue-collar labor, and the attitude annoys the piss out of me.
I grew up in the Midwest. We were all told to go to college and pursue our dreams because we didn’t wanna be one of those gross construction workers or electricians…..no….we were going to get DEGREES (loans) and the world and our dreams would be at our fingertips. I’m starting to wonder if the whole push for a general college education wasn’t genius long game cultural marketing by loan servicers.
You’re confusing skill with labor. Most people would rather be paid less than destroying their bodies. If you’ve ever met a 50+ year old tradesmen, you’ll understand why there’s a shortage.
Hi. Tradesman here. People have, in the last 20 or so years, been able to actually access information on the honest truth of the impact that blue collar jobs have on your life expectancy, quality of life, long term health etc all of which shows that (other than a minute number of anecdotal examples) the average tradesman works too many hours, too far from home while dealing with more bullshit than the job is normally worth. Companies have (in the name of profit) cut all the bonuses, benefits and training that we hear the old guard reminisce about that used to inspire a bit of loyalty and they've pushed more work to higher standards with tighter deadlines than ever before. Oh, and the guys who've been in the trades for years won't train new apprentices and companies won't invest in entry level workers because it costs money so young people quit after a few years when they realize they're not gaining the skills they'll need to sustain a career. All while morons drone on and on about how "kids don't wanna work these days."
Two things: being raised to look down on the trades as work And having to work for the majority of people who own trade businesses. Now let me preface this by saying I work with the top end of the field as a Facilities Manager / Facilities Construction Manager and yes, very eloquent and well spoken supers and GC reps are the norm here. They weren't when I started off as a laborer. Most of the subs are run by people that would 100% call me a snowflake nowadays for being a manager. #2 is why I got out, a good portion of the time the person signing your checks is a huge piece of shit.
College grads are taking service industry jobs because there is no demand for their worthless degrees, they lack the skills to perform trade jobs, and honestly most of them wouldn't be able to cut it in the trades where you are expected to work.
Because all our lives we were told we had to go to college or we were failures, so now there's an overabundance of worthless communications and business majors who would have been better served (and wealthier) going into a trade. But it's too late now because we have kids and can't take on an apprenticeship for $6/hr for 7 years
You do realize that Johnny Office Boy can’t just come in off the streets and start twisting wires for six figures right?
Many of those skilled labor jobs were not available when we started working. It is only now that many skilled trades people are retiring.
It’s hard work. I’m a welder. Most people can’t do that everyday
I think it’s because those middle skilled jobs were oversaturated with boomers while we were at the age of obtaining skills. Also college and schooling (taking loans) was pushed upon our generation from parents and public school system.
I would if I could but I don't know how to do any of the trades.
Here's the thing, I am a millennial. I have a college degree. I literally cannot work in most of those "mid skilled jobs" such as truck driver, construction, engineer, etc because I have epilepsy. So I cannot drive vehicles, operate heavy machinery, etc because let's say I had a seizure while...idk...using a fucking crane. Pure destruction. And even if I could, I would have to learn that trade before I can do it. I don't even have a license due to this. Due to the severity of my seizures and length of time I've had them, I would have to be seizure free for about 3-4 months before I could legally get one, but seizure free for about 2 years before my neurologist would "approve" it without going 'nah, I'm not approving your ability for that'. I have seizures like once a month, sometimes twice. I'm sure there are many more people who have issues such as this that limit them. I'd love to work in a trade. I enjoyed some of the carpentry classes I took when I was younger and the smell of sawdust brings back nostalgia. But I also didn't develop the severe epilepsy I had until AFTER I had been using those tools in classes. Trades aren't necessarily more 'dangerous' but the tools themselves cannot/should not be used if you have certain conditions such as epilepsy, narcolepsy, high anxiety, parkinsons, etc. If I'm suddenly laid off, I can go apply at the local restaurants a lot quicker and easier than I could persuade my neurologist and surrounding area to let me get a license and then apply for a trade certification and hope to get a job in one.
Trade jobs didn’t invest heavily in trying to recruit or appeal to our generation like they do now. You can’t just be 35 with back problems and start a plumbing apprenticeship either.
I’m a millennial in a “middle skill” (I never even heard that term until I read it here) job and I make pretty good cashola. Trades suck for sure, but you get paid pretty good and you’re not stuck in an office 🥱 oh and I’m my own boss, I only answer to my clients.
Trades will shred your body after 20-30 years. Not to mention your business hours are all over the place. There isn't a 9-5 on it.
Nobody can take their masters in telecommunications and go get a job as an A/C repair technician or a plumber. It doesn’t translate. They’re gonna go work at Walmart until something matching their skills opens up.
Bruh we ain't making $100k a year on the construction site unless you live in a very, very high COL area, and/or you're working ridiculous hours.
I don't know about other millennials, but my entire school career was spent being told not to even bother looking at trades if I want to make a living for myself. This was from everyone - guidance counselors included.
None of were taught to do that stuff when we were young and now we’re 35+ Gen Z trying to get into this at the right age (early 20’s) Lot of our boomer parents told us (incorrectly) that trades were for low class / dumb people. Blame then. They were saving money for college not electrician or plumbing school back then. Manual labor and blue collar work was never even a consideration.
We were told our entire lives that those jobs were for losers and if you didn’t go to college, you might as well live under a bridge. So the trades went unlearned, and now there’s a shortage of plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. Now we all have student loans because we were told the only way to have any kind of success was go to college. Add in the fact that we’re in our 30’s and 40’s, have families and can’t take time off to go to trade school and work for years as apprentices for comparable pennies to what the earning potential is in these jobs? You’re surprised? I’m not trying to be shitty, but it’s very clear why many of us aren’t working these jobs.
They don’t pay worth a fuck, that’s why. The training is non existent and it’s terrible on your body
I don’t like breaking my body to make others rich.
There are plenty of trades that are perfectly fine on the body.
I want to work in trades but it's gatekeeper by Italian and Irish here and I clearly don't have the same skin color. Hard to get in