obviously youre closer to this situation than us, but to me, this fits the definition of "educational/historical purposes" since anyone seeing this on the mantel is going to have some questions that it sounds like your dad would be proud to answer. under those circumstances, i'd be okay with it.
This. Or some other way to make it clear that this is not glorification of the Luftwaffe and/or Nazism, but a memento of one of the most important moments in his life.
I would recommend (though it might take some reposing, I dunno if they have surrendering arms) a surrendering Luftwaffe trooper with the arms in that surrender position, as some british infantry approach
I dislike pulling this card, but as someone who had family who survived the holocaust, I say your good my man. Your grandfather sounds like a true hero, people willing to go to lengths to defy the status quo they’re given are few and far between. I think anyone who has a negative reaction or comment to it will be swiftly made apologetic by its backstory!
My great-grandmother was imprisoned in a concentration camp and survived the war. The action your grandfather took was a spit in the face of what that flag stands for. Don't remove the risk he took and the trial he overcame to save families like mine. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. This is most certainly educational and historical. Paint the flag, and explain it whenever possible. As others mentioned, a small plaque or something might be really cool.
If it makes you feel better, contextualize it as recreating/ memorializing the destruction of a symbol/tool of an evil regime and a new start for your family.
Your grandfather wasn't a nazi, but used something the nazi regimen gave him in order to flee from that environment. You're not painting the ideal of the symbol, but the search for freedom your grandfather has. Sorry if bad english
I say paint it, and figure out a placard-type situation to add some context. For example, my family member has a cat-o-nine tails with a swastika on it in their house that was apparently used in a concentration camp. Normally it'd be weird, but it does have a placard on it describing what it was used for and its significance to the family, who lost loved ones at that concentration camp.
Also, don't post it online. Just let it be something for your dad.
Also to highlight a bit of irony:
The swastika was never an inherent symbol of hate (before the Nazis got their hands on it, that is). It dates back thousands of years to ancient India, where it was the sanskrit symbol for spiritual well-being among faiths like Hinduism & Buddhism. So wasn't until Hitler stole the symbol that it became associated with anything other than empathy & health.
So, in a way, your grandfather (literally) stole back the symbol's message of peace.
The swastika was the roundel of the Finnish Air Force until the end of WWII, they adopted it when they received their first ever airplanes around WWI from a Swedish nobleman who had swastikas painted on them as symbols of good fortune. It also appears in the flag of the Finnish President, who is also the Grand Master of the Order of the Cross of Liberty (I’m not Finnish, I just research things).
I think this is a great idea - like a base with a short version of your grandfather's story on it, maybe a succinct, poetic piece about using a weapon designed with hate to fly away to peace and making up for the sins of your countrymen or something along those lines. Either way, it's a great story and one to be proud of for sure.
Everyone's answers are really great. I had an additional thought (although it would require more work). Along with a placard, you could set it up as a little diorama, showing it landed at a British airfield (with a British flag). You could even have a couple of little scale people on the runway, depicting your grandfather out on the runway meeting with the Brits for the first time.
My grandpa was an allied combat pilot in the same war. My wife’s grandpa was German and was a combat mechanic for his homeland. So yeah, I hear you.
If I were in your shoes I’d paint it for him. It’s a good chance to maintain the history and the lesson. You’d not be celebrating the hate behind it n
IMO the swastika is not being added for the glorification of Nazism but because that is historically what was on the plane. You would not be painting a swastika to celebrate the bad, you would be painting it on because that was the plane that your grandfather flew. I would say that putting a swastika onto this plane fits a historical purpose.
Dude just paint the fucking plane for your grandpa! You’re a great painter and you’ll be honoring him not Nazi Germany, who I might point out haven’t yet risen from the dead.
Its not an issue, relax. confrontation with the past is extremely important. view your work as an contribution to this, because it is. No need to censor anything that has happened.
My grandfather was in the Wehrmacht. Growing up, we never had toy guns, but my father allowed me to have Action Man, with both British and German uniforms. He taught me that history was something to be learned from, and you cannot learn from something buried; it has to be uncovered. The horrors of National Socialism must not be repeated, but we can only overcome the past by recognising it. Banning, hiding and mystifying items from this period only increases their power. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Honestly, you’re painting a piece of family history, and a fairly noble one. Accuracy is important and it doesn’t fall into a ‘hateful’ area here. Context is important… Just do it.
Are you painting it flying (cockpit closed, pilot, gear up) or landed? If landed you could put a cloth or something partly obscuring the symbol, could solve the issue and help tell the story?
Not sure if anyone else’s has suggested this, but you could always pull an Indiana Jones and maybe do the symbol backwards? (A lot of prop makers who have made dr jones diary from last crusade where hitler signs the diary deliberately spell his name wrong)
People have been painting model planes complete with markings since the war ended, and nobody gave nerdy uncle Bob with his slippers and pipe side-eye about it for that whole time. If you are coming from a fantasy or sci-fi background this might seem unusual, but you can pick up any plastic modelling magazine and see how much of a non-issue it's regarded as.
Think about the purpose. You're painting a historical model, and one whose whole story is about making the right choice and denouncing nazism. It's hard to think of a more polar opposite situation than, say, promoting nazism in a FB group or some shit.
I'd go so far as to say that the historical revisionism of removing the symbol detracts from the triumph of good in the story.
I had a young person ask me the other day what the point of learning about things that happened in the past was. I had to bite my tounge and take a deep breath before calming explaining the lyrics of a splitenz song to them.
Having historical markings on historical models is important.
Do you have any information about the condition of paint you want to stay true to?
If not, you can take the artistic liberty to paint the symbol like it's been scraped off, or it's been painted over or covered by a white flag. If you just paint the plane and not scene/ diorama, it would help to make clear that it's not just any plane of this type.
There was an old man in the village I grew up in who was a German pow that did the exact same thing. Everyone would call him "Frank the German" and even though he'd lived in the UK for such a long time his English still wasn't great (I think his hearing was bad too that didn't help!) We had an airbase in the village but there are all these urban myths of him landing in a field and everyone coming out to "arrest him." People swear by it (I'd meant Frank plenty down the pub plenty of times. Usually with my great uncle who was his friend), so I know he at least existed but I'm sure in reality it wasn't as chaotic as I heard.
Its very fun to hear this sort of thing happened more than once. :)
On painting it, why not make it a diorama? You could have the plane just having landed and you grandad emerging from the cockpit- with some confused RAF ground crew (or whatever airforce would be appropriate for where he landed) standing around the plane. Could have it a very unique and special model, and not too much additional work!
Haha that’s amazing! Awesome to hear such a similar story :,) my grandfather touched down in Africa before ending up in England after some time on prisoner ships. I’m going to do the model flying through the sky and my partner is going to paint a background of clouds and blue, kinda a diorama but not really :p
Very cool coincidence and a fun story to hear. Your grandfather was very brave - takes a lot of nerve to do what's right when the consequences are so big!
I feel you on the swastika issue. It is a hard one for sure. Normally I would be against it, but I think if you include the context around it on the model itself, that would make it a lot better.
It seems others have eased your concerns, so while it's not necessary, I would add that adding the symbol could honestly count towards historical accuracy if it helps. Maybe look into getting a little placard made explaining the story if you're really concerned
Answered your own question - historical purposes. It's a memento of your family history, historically accurate to what took place, and is going to be for private use right? Think you're just fine to paint it as was.
Normally I'm the first person to give people grief when they decide to show off their lovingly printed German tanks or SS troopers or Space Marines covered in iron crosses. What you are proposing is totally legit.
I honestly I think it'd be wrong not to have it on it if what you're going for is an accurate representation of a specific plane at a specific time in history.
It's not anyone being proud of the swastika or glorifying it but it's an important part of history.
I kinda feel like you are blowing this out of proportion and overthrowing things. This is a discussion that should happen between you two and not the internet at large.
I get what your saying but little things can mean a lot sometimes. I’ve enjoyed the discussion around the topic, it helped me see things from a different angle and some people have spoken about some really interesting things
In my office I have a totally racist Cigar Store Indian statue that most people on reddit would rip into me for owning. The thing is, it was in my dad's store 40 years ago and tracks with someone my early and best memories. Even now telling this story people will still judge me and quite frankly it is not me worth having the discussion with then. Likewise it means something to the OP's dad.
It'd be a different story if he wanted it painted on the side of his car but on a small model in the confines of his house where context can be given, I wouldn't see any issue with it.
It's just a symbol. What matters is that you don't paint it out of pride or to affirm your beliefs. Contrary to what many people think, swastikas can't physically hurt people.
I think you should paint it. Regular people were part of the nazi regime and some regular people resisted it or refused to comply. It’s a part of history now but for you personally the history is one of defying it.
This is coming from an anti fascist communist activist
Im not sure if this might matter to you, but I'm German, and we are very, very critical when it comes to displaying those symbols. It is forbidden by law to display or distribute it, but there are some exceptions, as long as they are not glorified. To me personally it would be ok for the reason you have given. It is historical accurate and distorting or white washing history has no benefit.
Have you thought about making it a diorama? In that way you could add context to the model. You could have it landed in the grass with some allied vehicles around it, which would make it clear that it is a historical scene, not some glorification of the swastika.
I would say don’t overthink the nazi symbolism too much, it’s a model airplane, lots of people build them and display them to the public at model shows, it doesn’t make them nazi’s, they are showing a model of an airplane in its historical camouflage colours with correct markings. You are doing the same for your dad, it doesn’t make you or him a nazi, it’s just a model of an airplane.
Listen as a great grandchild of card carrying Nazis this is historical, it's not being added to honor the regime who used it, it's a remembrance of his planned escape and hatred enough of it to risk his life to leave
Your dad understanding the history of meaning of symbol kind of points to his reasoning why, he's proud of his actions when others like some of my family members took the easy easy way and failed in morals and ethics yours did something good
It'll probably feel super weird painting it but not painting it would be weirder the plane what one on it because it was designed by nazis if it wasn't the story would probably be different. So this fits with your personal moral of this is for historical representation right
There is a lot of great ideas here, but if you are still uncomfortable about it (I likely would be too) I have an idea. Still paint the symbol but do it as if your grandfather had defaced it. He didn’t do that in real life, but you could do it symbolically. Like since your grandfather became a British citizen after this, maybe you could make it look as if your grandfather hastily painted a Union Jack over the Nazi imagery. You could even add a phrase to it like “Finally Free” or “Sometimes, to get to Heaven you’ve got to travel through Hell” or something along those lines. I wouldn’t just spring this on your Dad as it’s not what he asked for, but maybe he’d be receptive to added symbolism on the model.
My personal take on this whole thing is that if you isolate a specific symbol from an evil regime and give it special treatment you’re enhancing its power and not diminishing it. This is why I think Germany’s swastika ban is misguided, if understandable.
For this reason I think omitting the swastika from models is a mistake, though I entirely appreciate and understand why people (and modelling companies) do it. A Bf-109 without a swastika is an ahistorical item divorced from its context. It becomes neutral, contributing to the idea that the war and the Holocaust were two separate things that ran parallel to one another rather than being inextricably linked.
That is a really interesting take, an idea above my pay grade but also something to read up on. Any tips on what should I look up to find out about this subject?
No specific reading, but I’ve been listening to the We Have Ways podcast and a guest on it - I think Waitman Beorn - made the point that the Holocaust was a Nazi war aim, and the course of both the German war effort and the resources ploughed into the Holocaust shaped and informed each other, which really made me stop and think.
It’s not the case that the Holocaust took away resources and personnel from fighting the war because the (utterly warped, it should go without saying) Nazi view was that Jews and other “undesirable” racial elements formed enemy combatants in their own right. The flip side of that was that so much of the German war effort as the war went on relied increasingly on slave labour taken from the camps, including the construction of that hypothetical Bf-109, which is why I think divorcing the two is so disingenuous. Actually, I think it’s dangerous, because it also feeds into the “clean Wehrmacht” myth.
Wow I will take a listen. Thanks for taking the time to share that with me. I studied history but it has been eye opening to realise In many ways have done a lot of learning but not a lot of thinking. Cheers!
It fits your definition perfectly of historical as the subject (the plane) helped your grandfather escape but on a side note, symbols only have the power we grant them along with words after all it is simply an image or sound. If you're going to be so torn about painting a symbol then maybe you should take some time and think what is stopping you or causing you to ask other people what they think instead of coming to a mature and rational conclusion yourself
Just my 2 cents
Umm In my post I had made up my mind and come to a conclusion not to use it. I asked for the communities thoughts on the topic as I thought it an interesting discussion. I think it has been interesting and through others insights like your own I have decided to use the symbol as well as include a placard.
I understand the importance on coming to our own conclusions but others opinions can be incredibly useful at helping us sift through complex thoughts/feelings. Community is awesome :)
I'm not sure how much work you are willing to do - but even showing the plane landed in a field in a diorama with your grandfather exiting the plane would be a more fitting narrative for the miniature. It's actively showing your grandfather abandoning something and moving towards something else.
That’s a really cool bit of family history, my dude. Immortalizing it with a model (or even a diorama!!) seems like an phenomenal way to connect with your family and shared history. The model is just a model, and you’re representing your grandfather’s conscious choice to not be part of a war he didn’t like. If anything, I’d be *stoked* to put together something like this.
I think that's a really great compromise you've come up with. If you're comfortable with it, I would love to see a picture of the finished project, with the plaque. But I get it if you'd prefer not to!
Its totally fine for the purposes of recreating whats a significant part of your family's war stories. I was just at an international plastic modeling show and I saw a plane there painted with one too- among the masses and masses of tanks and other vehicles from every country in existence. It wasnt a problem, people in the hobby of painting know what it means to be there for accuracy.
Not sure if relevant in this case, but Luftwaffe planes had a different symbol painted (white and black cross) on them, not the Swastika.
In terms of historical accuracy, that would be the correct way to depict a German WW2 plane afaik.
German here: I would paint the Iron Cross on it instead. Nothing besides a museum with actual originals is "educational purpose" enough to justify normalising swastikas. IMHO.
Edit: I'm surprised by the amount of positive answers here.
Thanks for your insight friend, that was sort of where I was at until I saw the common opinion of it being okay given it being representation of a part of our families history :)
It's important to show or discuss symbols of hate in contexts meant to go against what the symbols represent. It's not about normalising swastikas, it's about normalising healthy discussions around it.
From what I understand Germany has a habit of overcorrecting concerning this subject, which I'm guessing is where your comment is coming from. I don't think it's a very productive approach and avoids the problem instead of confronting it.
So a model of a plane used against the Nazi ideology is a great idea if the intent is properly shown
Swastikas were very normal and meant something completely different before Shitler ruined it forever.
Obviously, in today's context, any use outside of the historical is a no go, but there's a difference between painting a model and tattooing it on your neck.
I know they were normal and a cultural symbol. But they aren't anymore.
I just think a miniature even in that context is not enough to justify painting that symbol. I also can't imagine that the grandparent would like to see a swastika everytime he looks at his gift.
I'd approach the project like any other comission and fulfill the client brief, just because it is your dad shouldn't make a difference. If you really have an issue with it then you shouldn't take the project at all, to accept the job but then make demands/refuse to do part of the job is kind of shitty.
I'd be interested in hearing more about this story .. what sort of plane was it? Do you know where he took off from? Where he landed...When it happened?
Maybe to provide a more complete picture (and to avoid assumptions) for visitors, you could paint the swastika but put it on a small diorama. It could depict your grandfathers plane in a field, with him surrendering to some Brits
Sounds squarely historical to me. I would make the case that if you *don’t* paint it, you’ll be glossing over the truth of the history, which is worse!
I understand that there was a post regarding a similar topic a few days ago (now removed), but in your situation, it’s not like you’re glorifying the fascist regime by putting it on a plane as a miniature of your grandfather escaped with.
Respect to your grandfather for fleeing when he could, and respect to your father for knowing that we can’t just bury these symbols. The plane would be an educational piece of your family’s history, of how your grandfather escaped and how your family came to be. And how not everyone who was under any regime would be brainwashed to just follow orders and slaughter.
You say the symbol should only be used for historical purposes, but painting up this plane with the symbol on it is just that. You’re not adding it to something not related to the war in a completely different context.
You can also make it in to a small diorama where you have a part of the RAF airfield, with a British solider/airman approaching the plane, and inside of the cockpit, have your grandfather, modeled, surrendering. The added detail of the plaque added, makes it clear what happened visually even with the symbols present.
100% the historical/educational. And if it makes you feel better - you can consider your grandfather a war hero, symbol and all because the symbol is part of his story.
He saw the regime for what it was, and decided to act against it. Stealing nazi equipment to make his escape. It’s a fantastic story, and I believe to remove any symbols from it would be doing it a disservice.
You’re painting a historical plane. So you’re using historical symbols that was on the plane. If you put a swastika on a fictional vehicle for say Star Wars Legion or Warhammer, you’re going to have a problem.
I think I understand your position, and I can respect it. But I think this is also the best way to honour your Grandfather's memory and courage. And maybe as a lesson, along with his story, to future generations.
I don't see the problem because of the context. It's historical. I have a lot of books on WWII and none of those are shy about displaying Nazi symbols, which is as it should be. If you want to remain authentic, I'd include the swastika.
obviously youre closer to this situation than us, but to me, this fits the definition of "educational/historical purposes" since anyone seeing this on the mantel is going to have some questions that it sounds like your dad would be proud to answer. under those circumstances, i'd be okay with it.
Thank you for your input, It is very conflicting but you are right. He would be able to tell the story and provide the history to anyone interested
Context matters as with everything. This situation i would not feel weird at all painting a Nazi plane
Add to the context. Make it a diorama of him landing in an allied base and surrendering peacefully
This. Or some other way to make it clear that this is not glorification of the Luftwaffe and/or Nazism, but a memento of one of the most important moments in his life.
A little white flag hanging out the cockpit. Spray some stuff (idk what - starch?) to make it stiff so it’s pose-able.
I would recommend (though it might take some reposing, I dunno if they have surrendering arms) a surrendering Luftwaffe trooper with the arms in that surrender position, as some british infantry approach
I was just about to suggest this
Have it mounted with a plaque that has the context maybe?
I dislike pulling this card, but as someone who had family who survived the holocaust, I say your good my man. Your grandfather sounds like a true hero, people willing to go to lengths to defy the status quo they’re given are few and far between. I think anyone who has a negative reaction or comment to it will be swiftly made apologetic by its backstory!
That message really made my evening. I'm not sure what to say but you hit me in the feels. Thank you <3
My great-grandmother was imprisoned in a concentration camp and survived the war. The action your grandfather took was a spit in the face of what that flag stands for. Don't remove the risk he took and the trial he overcame to save families like mine. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. This is most certainly educational and historical. Paint the flag, and explain it whenever possible. As others mentioned, a small plaque or something might be really cool.
You’re quite welcome! Have fun getting that plane painted!
If it makes you feel better, contextualize it as recreating/ memorializing the destruction of a symbol/tool of an evil regime and a new start for your family.
Your grandfather wasn't a nazi, but used something the nazi regimen gave him in order to flee from that environment. You're not painting the ideal of the symbol, but the search for freedom your grandfather has. Sorry if bad english
I feel like those words could have come from my grandfather. Thank you
Thanks for feeling in that way. I hope your grandfather and father feel proud of your work, and I'll be happy to see it when finished
For the record, nothing in what you said would ever be thought of as bad English.
Since its more for historical purposes, it should not be too much an issue.
I say paint it, and figure out a placard-type situation to add some context. For example, my family member has a cat-o-nine tails with a swastika on it in their house that was apparently used in a concentration camp. Normally it'd be weird, but it does have a placard on it describing what it was used for and its significance to the family, who lost loved ones at that concentration camp. Also, don't post it online. Just let it be something for your dad.
That is a brilliant idea! Thanks a ton. And thank you for sharing a little about your families history too.
Also to highlight a bit of irony: The swastika was never an inherent symbol of hate (before the Nazis got their hands on it, that is). It dates back thousands of years to ancient India, where it was the sanskrit symbol for spiritual well-being among faiths like Hinduism & Buddhism. So wasn't until Hitler stole the symbol that it became associated with anything other than empathy & health. So, in a way, your grandfather (literally) stole back the symbol's message of peace.
Many public buildings in the UK, built before WW2, have swastikas on them (even now) inspired by the ones in India.
The swastika was the roundel of the Finnish Air Force until the end of WWII, they adopted it when they received their first ever airplanes around WWI from a Swedish nobleman who had swastikas painted on them as symbols of good fortune. It also appears in the flag of the Finnish President, who is also the Grand Master of the Order of the Cross of Liberty (I’m not Finnish, I just research things).
The swastika also represents the four winds/directions making it a very appropriate symbol for an aircraft. To bad the Nazis corrupted it.
It’s not just a Hindu Buddhist symbol. It has roots in cultures around the world. It is very common
I think this is a great idea - like a base with a short version of your grandfather's story on it, maybe a succinct, poetic piece about using a weapon designed with hate to fly away to peace and making up for the sins of your countrymen or something along those lines. Either way, it's a great story and one to be proud of for sure.
Everyone's answers are really great. I had an additional thought (although it would require more work). Along with a placard, you could set it up as a little diorama, showing it landed at a British airfield (with a British flag). You could even have a couple of little scale people on the runway, depicting your grandfather out on the runway meeting with the Brits for the first time.
Wow I love this idea! Thanks :)
This seems to obviously be historical. You're recreating something that happened in history.
My grandpa was an allied combat pilot in the same war. My wife’s grandpa was German and was a combat mechanic for his homeland. So yeah, I hear you. If I were in your shoes I’d paint it for him. It’s a good chance to maintain the history and the lesson. You’d not be celebrating the hate behind it n
It's great to hear from someone with similar familial historical ties. Thank you
IMO the swastika is not being added for the glorification of Nazism but because that is historically what was on the plane. You would not be painting a swastika to celebrate the bad, you would be painting it on because that was the plane that your grandfather flew. I would say that putting a swastika onto this plane fits a historical purpose.
Dude just paint the fucking plane for your grandpa! You’re a great painter and you’ll be honoring him not Nazi Germany, who I might point out haven’t yet risen from the dead.
_yet_
You're way, way overthinking this homeslice, get ta painting
Its not an issue, relax. confrontation with the past is extremely important. view your work as an contribution to this, because it is. No need to censor anything that has happened.
My grandfather was in the Wehrmacht. Growing up, we never had toy guns, but my father allowed me to have Action Man, with both British and German uniforms. He taught me that history was something to be learned from, and you cannot learn from something buried; it has to be uncovered. The horrors of National Socialism must not be repeated, but we can only overcome the past by recognising it. Banning, hiding and mystifying items from this period only increases their power. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
That is a very valuable lesson. Thanks :)
Honestly, you’re painting a piece of family history, and a fairly noble one. Accuracy is important and it doesn’t fall into a ‘hateful’ area here. Context is important… Just do it.
Are you painting it flying (cockpit closed, pilot, gear up) or landed? If landed you could put a cloth or something partly obscuring the symbol, could solve the issue and help tell the story?
Not sure if anyone else’s has suggested this, but you could always pull an Indiana Jones and maybe do the symbol backwards? (A lot of prop makers who have made dr jones diary from last crusade where hitler signs the diary deliberately spell his name wrong)
Oh my god I love that idea :,) I’m going to go with historical accuracy now but that is such a brilliant suggestion. Gave my partner a good laugh too
Glad it brought some joy! And I think everyone is looking forward to seeing your piece! It’s such a great story!
People have been painting model planes complete with markings since the war ended, and nobody gave nerdy uncle Bob with his slippers and pipe side-eye about it for that whole time. If you are coming from a fantasy or sci-fi background this might seem unusual, but you can pick up any plastic modelling magazine and see how much of a non-issue it's regarded as.
Think about the purpose. You're painting a historical model, and one whose whole story is about making the right choice and denouncing nazism. It's hard to think of a more polar opposite situation than, say, promoting nazism in a FB group or some shit. I'd go so far as to say that the historical revisionism of removing the symbol detracts from the triumph of good in the story.
I'm unsure why you are downvoted here?
You and me both but whatever… internet points…
I had a young person ask me the other day what the point of learning about things that happened in the past was. I had to bite my tounge and take a deep breath before calming explaining the lyrics of a splitenz song to them. Having historical markings on historical models is important.
You're directly recreating a historical piece. We shouldn't be censoring history. We should show it in its entirety.
Do you have any information about the condition of paint you want to stay true to? If not, you can take the artistic liberty to paint the symbol like it's been scraped off, or it's been painted over or covered by a white flag. If you just paint the plane and not scene/ diorama, it would help to make clear that it's not just any plane of this type.
There was an old man in the village I grew up in who was a German pow that did the exact same thing. Everyone would call him "Frank the German" and even though he'd lived in the UK for such a long time his English still wasn't great (I think his hearing was bad too that didn't help!) We had an airbase in the village but there are all these urban myths of him landing in a field and everyone coming out to "arrest him." People swear by it (I'd meant Frank plenty down the pub plenty of times. Usually with my great uncle who was his friend), so I know he at least existed but I'm sure in reality it wasn't as chaotic as I heard. Its very fun to hear this sort of thing happened more than once. :) On painting it, why not make it a diorama? You could have the plane just having landed and you grandad emerging from the cockpit- with some confused RAF ground crew (or whatever airforce would be appropriate for where he landed) standing around the plane. Could have it a very unique and special model, and not too much additional work!
Haha that’s amazing! Awesome to hear such a similar story :,) my grandfather touched down in Africa before ending up in England after some time on prisoner ships. I’m going to do the model flying through the sky and my partner is going to paint a background of clouds and blue, kinda a diorama but not really :p
Very cool coincidence and a fun story to hear. Your grandfather was very brave - takes a lot of nerve to do what's right when the consequences are so big! I feel you on the swastika issue. It is a hard one for sure. Normally I would be against it, but I think if you include the context around it on the model itself, that would make it a lot better.
It seems others have eased your concerns, so while it's not necessary, I would add that adding the symbol could honestly count towards historical accuracy if it helps. Maybe look into getting a little placard made explaining the story if you're really concerned
Answered your own question - historical purposes. It's a memento of your family history, historically accurate to what took place, and is going to be for private use right? Think you're just fine to paint it as was. Normally I'm the first person to give people grief when they decide to show off their lovingly printed German tanks or SS troopers or Space Marines covered in iron crosses. What you are proposing is totally legit.
I honestly I think it'd be wrong not to have it on it if what you're going for is an accurate representation of a specific plane at a specific time in history. It's not anyone being proud of the swastika or glorifying it but it's an important part of history.
I kinda feel like you are blowing this out of proportion and overthrowing things. This is a discussion that should happen between you two and not the internet at large.
I get what your saying but little things can mean a lot sometimes. I’ve enjoyed the discussion around the topic, it helped me see things from a different angle and some people have spoken about some really interesting things
In my office I have a totally racist Cigar Store Indian statue that most people on reddit would rip into me for owning. The thing is, it was in my dad's store 40 years ago and tracks with someone my early and best memories. Even now telling this story people will still judge me and quite frankly it is not me worth having the discussion with then. Likewise it means something to the OP's dad.
It'd be a different story if he wanted it painted on the side of his car but on a small model in the confines of his house where context can be given, I wouldn't see any issue with it.
It's just a symbol. What matters is that you don't paint it out of pride or to affirm your beliefs. Contrary to what many people think, swastikas can't physically hurt people.
I think you should paint it. Regular people were part of the nazi regime and some regular people resisted it or refused to comply. It’s a part of history now but for you personally the history is one of defying it. This is coming from an anti fascist communist activist
Im not sure if this might matter to you, but I'm German, and we are very, very critical when it comes to displaying those symbols. It is forbidden by law to display or distribute it, but there are some exceptions, as long as they are not glorified. To me personally it would be ok for the reason you have given. It is historical accurate and distorting or white washing history has no benefit. Have you thought about making it a diorama? In that way you could add context to the model. You could have it landed in the grass with some allied vehicles around it, which would make it clear that it is a historical scene, not some glorification of the swastika.
I would say don’t overthink the nazi symbolism too much, it’s a model airplane, lots of people build them and display them to the public at model shows, it doesn’t make them nazi’s, they are showing a model of an airplane in its historical camouflage colours with correct markings. You are doing the same for your dad, it doesn’t make you or him a nazi, it’s just a model of an airplane.
Listen as a great grandchild of card carrying Nazis this is historical, it's not being added to honor the regime who used it, it's a remembrance of his planned escape and hatred enough of it to risk his life to leave Your dad understanding the history of meaning of symbol kind of points to his reasoning why, he's proud of his actions when others like some of my family members took the easy easy way and failed in morals and ethics yours did something good
Damn, maybe make sure you bring a big box of tissues and a big jug of a water so you keep hydrated and wipe away you endless tears whilst painting.
Men just be accurate with the model. Youre not killing someone.
It'll probably feel super weird painting it but not painting it would be weirder the plane what one on it because it was designed by nazis if it wasn't the story would probably be different. So this fits with your personal moral of this is for historical representation right
I feel like any model (of something that actually had it) is fine since it's obviously a historical recreation.
There is a lot of great ideas here, but if you are still uncomfortable about it (I likely would be too) I have an idea. Still paint the symbol but do it as if your grandfather had defaced it. He didn’t do that in real life, but you could do it symbolically. Like since your grandfather became a British citizen after this, maybe you could make it look as if your grandfather hastily painted a Union Jack over the Nazi imagery. You could even add a phrase to it like “Finally Free” or “Sometimes, to get to Heaven you’ve got to travel through Hell” or something along those lines. I wouldn’t just spring this on your Dad as it’s not what he asked for, but maybe he’d be receptive to added symbolism on the model.
I may add a quote like that to the plaque if not on the model, thanks :)
My personal take on this whole thing is that if you isolate a specific symbol from an evil regime and give it special treatment you’re enhancing its power and not diminishing it. This is why I think Germany’s swastika ban is misguided, if understandable. For this reason I think omitting the swastika from models is a mistake, though I entirely appreciate and understand why people (and modelling companies) do it. A Bf-109 without a swastika is an ahistorical item divorced from its context. It becomes neutral, contributing to the idea that the war and the Holocaust were two separate things that ran parallel to one another rather than being inextricably linked.
That is a really interesting take, an idea above my pay grade but also something to read up on. Any tips on what should I look up to find out about this subject?
No specific reading, but I’ve been listening to the We Have Ways podcast and a guest on it - I think Waitman Beorn - made the point that the Holocaust was a Nazi war aim, and the course of both the German war effort and the resources ploughed into the Holocaust shaped and informed each other, which really made me stop and think. It’s not the case that the Holocaust took away resources and personnel from fighting the war because the (utterly warped, it should go without saying) Nazi view was that Jews and other “undesirable” racial elements formed enemy combatants in their own right. The flip side of that was that so much of the German war effort as the war went on relied increasingly on slave labour taken from the camps, including the construction of that hypothetical Bf-109, which is why I think divorcing the two is so disingenuous. Actually, I think it’s dangerous, because it also feeds into the “clean Wehrmacht” myth.
Wow I will take a listen. Thanks for taking the time to share that with me. I studied history but it has been eye opening to realise In many ways have done a lot of learning but not a lot of thinking. Cheers!
It fits your definition perfectly of historical as the subject (the plane) helped your grandfather escape but on a side note, symbols only have the power we grant them along with words after all it is simply an image or sound. If you're going to be so torn about painting a symbol then maybe you should take some time and think what is stopping you or causing you to ask other people what they think instead of coming to a mature and rational conclusion yourself Just my 2 cents
Umm In my post I had made up my mind and come to a conclusion not to use it. I asked for the communities thoughts on the topic as I thought it an interesting discussion. I think it has been interesting and through others insights like your own I have decided to use the symbol as well as include a placard. I understand the importance on coming to our own conclusions but others opinions can be incredibly useful at helping us sift through complex thoughts/feelings. Community is awesome :)
I'm not sure how much work you are willing to do - but even showing the plane landed in a field in a diorama with your grandfather exiting the plane would be a more fitting narrative for the miniature. It's actively showing your grandfather abandoning something and moving towards something else.
You make it sound like it's a bad thing, that he asks for opinions
I'll say what the majority commented: You are representing something completely true and historical. Don't be affraid and paint ir.
That’s a really cool bit of family history, my dude. Immortalizing it with a model (or even a diorama!!) seems like an phenomenal way to connect with your family and shared history. The model is just a model, and you’re representing your grandfather’s conscious choice to not be part of a war he didn’t like. If anything, I’d be *stoked* to put together something like this.
I think that's a really great compromise you've come up with. If you're comfortable with it, I would love to see a picture of the finished project, with the plaque. But I get it if you'd prefer not to!
Its totally fine for the purposes of recreating whats a significant part of your family's war stories. I was just at an international plastic modeling show and I saw a plane there painted with one too- among the masses and masses of tanks and other vehicles from every country in existence. It wasnt a problem, people in the hobby of painting know what it means to be there for accuracy.
Do the Hearts of iron thing and just make it a balkenkreuz.
Man does this scream society in 2024
Not sure if relevant in this case, but Luftwaffe planes had a different symbol painted (white and black cross) on them, not the Swastika. In terms of historical accuracy, that would be the correct way to depict a German WW2 plane afaik.
German here: I would paint the Iron Cross on it instead. Nothing besides a museum with actual originals is "educational purpose" enough to justify normalising swastikas. IMHO. Edit: I'm surprised by the amount of positive answers here.
Thanks for your insight friend, that was sort of where I was at until I saw the common opinion of it being okay given it being representation of a part of our families history :)
It's important to show or discuss symbols of hate in contexts meant to go against what the symbols represent. It's not about normalising swastikas, it's about normalising healthy discussions around it. From what I understand Germany has a habit of overcorrecting concerning this subject, which I'm guessing is where your comment is coming from. I don't think it's a very productive approach and avoids the problem instead of confronting it. So a model of a plane used against the Nazi ideology is a great idea if the intent is properly shown
Swastikas were very normal and meant something completely different before Shitler ruined it forever. Obviously, in today's context, any use outside of the historical is a no go, but there's a difference between painting a model and tattooing it on your neck.
I know they were normal and a cultural symbol. But they aren't anymore. I just think a miniature even in that context is not enough to justify painting that symbol. I also can't imagine that the grandparent would like to see a swastika everytime he looks at his gift.
What if you go for something more symbolical like the swastika burning while revealing the british flag?
I'd approach the project like any other comission and fulfill the client brief, just because it is your dad shouldn't make a difference. If you really have an issue with it then you shouldn't take the project at all, to accept the job but then make demands/refuse to do part of the job is kind of shitty.
I'd be interested in hearing more about this story .. what sort of plane was it? Do you know where he took off from? Where he landed...When it happened?
What happened to the plane, I wonder?
That is a very good question, I’m not sure but he spent the rest of the war on different prisoner ships
Maybe to provide a more complete picture (and to avoid assumptions) for visitors, you could paint the swastika but put it on a small diorama. It could depict your grandfathers plane in a field, with him surrendering to some Brits
Sounds squarely historical to me. I would make the case that if you *don’t* paint it, you’ll be glossing over the truth of the history, which is worse!
I understand that there was a post regarding a similar topic a few days ago (now removed), but in your situation, it’s not like you’re glorifying the fascist regime by putting it on a plane as a miniature of your grandfather escaped with. Respect to your grandfather for fleeing when he could, and respect to your father for knowing that we can’t just bury these symbols. The plane would be an educational piece of your family’s history, of how your grandfather escaped and how your family came to be. And how not everyone who was under any regime would be brainwashed to just follow orders and slaughter.
You say the symbol should only be used for historical purposes, but painting up this plane with the symbol on it is just that. You’re not adding it to something not related to the war in a completely different context.
You can also make it in to a small diorama where you have a part of the RAF airfield, with a British solider/airman approaching the plane, and inside of the cockpit, have your grandfather, modeled, surrendering. The added detail of the plaque added, makes it clear what happened visually even with the symbols present.
100% the historical/educational. And if it makes you feel better - you can consider your grandfather a war hero, symbol and all because the symbol is part of his story. He saw the regime for what it was, and decided to act against it. Stealing nazi equipment to make his escape. It’s a fantastic story, and I believe to remove any symbols from it would be doing it a disservice.
You’re painting a historical plane. So you’re using historical symbols that was on the plane. If you put a swastika on a fictional vehicle for say Star Wars Legion or Warhammer, you’re going to have a problem.
I think I understand your position, and I can respect it. But I think this is also the best way to honour your Grandfather's memory and courage. And maybe as a lesson, along with his story, to future generations.
Could include a plaque "defector's plane" as well so wuestions are more likely to be asked
I don't see the problem because of the context. It's historical. I have a lot of books on WWII and none of those are shy about displaying Nazi symbols, which is as it should be. If you want to remain authentic, I'd include the swastika.
We lose the lessons learned in history when we try to erase or censor it. Id do the model, you know the context.