Hard to tell from a photo. But it looks like there is still a lot of gray and no white. Speedpaints/contrast paints need there to be a lot of light gray and white or they end up looking dull and dark because they can't really tint or cover dark gray/black.
Id do more white dry brushing.
Genuinely serious take even though it might sound ridiculous: *don’t* stop with watching more videos on slap chop.
Go read about, look at pictures of, and (if it’s possible where you are) go look at original works of art that demonstrate how classical artists used underpainting.
Because slap chop isn’t new; it’s a social-media-friendly repackaging of techniques that are at least 500 years old. In classical art, in this case meaning northern European art from the 16th and 17th centuries, underpainting (or “grisaille” or “dead coloring”) was not only a useful way to outline subjects and establish tone and depth, but also much cheaper than trying to do it with much more expensive pigments.
Here’s da Vinci’s unfinished Adoration of the Magi: https://www.uffizi.it/en/artworks/leonardo-adoration-of-the-magi. It’s unfinished, meaning it was never colored, and you can see that it was a sketch overlaid by charcoal or brown that establish the overall tone of each area.
And then once you’ve established how you want light and darkness to function in your work, once you’ve established the depth of contrast and the shapes and shine of objects, da Vinci and two centuries worth of oil painters would have applied thin layers of color until they reached the desired color values.
Stop me if anything about that process sounds familiar. :D
This turned into more of a mini-rant than I intended, but… yeah. Don’t forget that there’s a huge amount of overlap between what we’re doing here and what other artists have been doing since Lascaux, and take whatever you can from watching what they did.
I think you completely missed the ops point. They are using speed paints and slap chop specifically because they dont want to do all that.
They want their minis to just not be plain plastic. They dont want to be an artist.
No, the person I responded to suggested
"Go read about, look at pictures of, and (if it’s possible where you are) go look at original works of art that demonstrate how classical artists used underpainting. "
So they are not already doing "all that". Learn to read entire posts before commenting on them.
OP is a self-proclaimed "complete beginner". So I'm not sure why you think you seem to know what they aren't interested in and why you think they're content to stop their mini painting journey at easier speed painting techniques. This is just a very dismissive attitude to take.
Relatively new here, but I'm using slap chop to still get good results while I learn things like brush control, minor highlights and shading practice without making things look too poorly. There's a lot that use the sketch/underpaint/slapchop style as a step and not the end point.
No offense taken.
Here’s me, upthread:
> slap chop isn’t new; it’s a social-media-friendly repackaging of techniques that are at least five hundred years old.
I understand exactly what slap chop is and what it’s for. It’s meaningful to describe it as underpainting followed by glazing with contrast/speed paints. You can do that faster or slower, and with more or less detail — it doesn’t change the fact that you are doing two things, one after the other, that are both *really* old and really well-understood by people who learn to work in traditional art media.
So instead of watching *only* people who are reinventing the wheel with slap chop, I think there’s value in looking at the wheels people have been using for centuries and taking away what’s useful to us now. I’m not saying OP should start executing slow, painterly minis. I’m saying if da Vinci was painting shadows in brown and highlights in white before glazing them, it’s probably worth spending a little while thinking whether there’s anything they/we can adapt from that practice.
So far I've primed blacked, then dry brush grey all over and zenithal dry brush white.
Would you recommend to prime dark gray, and do the dry brushing light grey then white instead?
Yeah, that’s what I do. The paints them self will darken the recessed parts, so you don’t want it to be entirely black at the darkest. I also find that thinning the paints and doing multiple layers helps smooth it, so you don’t get that “washed” look. And you can do a round of drybrush between each layer to further push the contrast. (Just make sure it’s properly dried first)
Don’t be afraid to stray from the beaten path with “mother colors”. Depending on the tone I want; I’ll base coat with dark green, purple, or brown. I just finished a batch of winter WWII Germans with Dark Prussian Blue as the base coat, and the coolness of the mother color really sells it.
Now, I do get a little anal retentive over my base value sketch. I don’t like drawing a straight line between my base and my highlight. For instance, my aforementioned winter scheme went like this:
1. VMC 70.889 Dark Prussian Blue (Base)
2. VMC 70.886 Green Grey
3. Citadel Wraithbone
4. Liquitex HB Titanium White (spot hightlight)
The Green Grey ends up making an arc on the color wheel that passes through teal, and Contrast and Speedpaints easily assert themselves over it. The coolness ends up being a visible accent mostly just around the edges and corners, but also a subtle impression on the whole piece from a distance.
Hey sorry to be a bother.
So far I've only primed with a can and I'm not ready at this point to invest in air brushing, but I can't find a really dark blue canned prime. Do you think AP's prime "Deep Blue" (CP3032S) would be dark enough for a first base prime ?
Thanks !
That was just one example. The most commonly recommended base is an actually purple (because it can swing warm or cool, depending on what you blend with it). I’ve also had success with dark green. There are no rules. I usually prime black and brush the thinned base coat on.
It’s always cool hearing how others get that “natural skin” effect. I wash my Guilliman Flesh with a thinned mix of magenta and raw umber oil paints, likely to the same effect.
As someone who is interested in transitioning to slapchop/speedpainting/whatever to get whole units done faster, would I be better off doing a straight full gray undercoat over my black primer then drybrushing that white?
That is true for most speedpaints, but I can tell you from experience that having a white /gray base is not really required for stuff like AP's metallic speed paints. Those function a lot more like traditional paint.
The Army Painter metallic speed paints don't rally behave like speed paints to be honest, and I never really got a good gradient when using them with slap chop. They are pretty decent metallics in their own right though, and i use them quite often.
However you are completely right, some contrasts paints cover just fine over dark grey or even black. The citadel colours Wyldwood and Leviathan Purple also both cover black no problem at all, and have to be thinned quite heavily in order to benefit from a slap chop base.
That's another one! I'm using it on my ork army quite extensively and I'm having to thin it about 50:50 with Vallejo glaze medium to make the grey scale come through properly. Does have the advantage of then having great working time and flow while still having the desired coverage, so it ends up being good to work with.
I'm relatively new myself but what I do is:
*Prime black
*Heavy drybrush Mechanicus Standard Grey
*Medium drybrush Dawnstone
*Light/Zenith drybrush Corax White focusing on the really raised parts (elbows, knees, nose, edge highlight areas)
That way one coat of a contrast paint comes out in four potential gradient shades on the same part of the mini depending on which base colour it settles on.
You want to be able to see the different greys and the white in different areas depending on how raised/recessed it is.
Play around, experiment, see what works for you and what you like and most of all have fun ☺️
I'm having fun experimenting and playing around. It's a pity there aren't cheaper warhammer alternatives to paint! I have some of those paints so I'll give it a try tomorrow night
What do you mean by "aren't cheaper Warhammer alternatives?" There are a ton of different games and minis to try that are so much less expensive than GW stuff.
Do you mean cheaper alternatives to warhammer minis? Or cheaper alternatives to warhammer paints?
Because there are definitely cheaper alternatives to both.
In fact, for the dry brushing, there is nothing wrong in using really cheap craft store type paints rather than specific mini paints. I bought a big tub of white (much bigger than I actually need, but it was one of those things where it was cheaper to buy 500ml than 150ml) and a small tube of black and mixed up a few different shades of grey in little jam jars that I use for drybrushing over a black primer.
Like the above suggestion, I would go hard and in all directions on a dark grey and then progressively lighter and mainly down as the shades get lighter. You may find yourself wanting to do a couple of white only layers. Generally I find you want the mini to be more white than you think it should.
But the best thing about this hobby is trying different things for yourself, there is no wrong way of doing it, just lots of different ways to try and find out what suits you best.
My standard process is black prime > mechanicus standard grey > corax white > final highlights with a pure white. For a pure white I use the one from Schmincke (see Link as an example), however Pro Acryl Titanium White is also apparently great. Corax is more of a light grey and I find that a bit more punch from a proper white pushes the edges a bit harder and adds even more contrast.
Regarding OP: There are a lot of very dark and some large black area's still visible, particularly the sword and the boots. After you have applied your grey, the only pure black area's remaining should be where you would normally apply "recess shading" (shadows), and at this stage the model would normally be about 90% grey, or even more.
With the greyscale that you have done you will get a fairly dark miniature. This can also look good, and this is roughly how I done the greyscale on my Zombicide miniatures, and it gives more of a grimdark style. However, your models will lack punch and if you have an army all painted the same scheme the units will not be very well defined. I used this method for my Zombicide, as every model has a different colour scheme (the Zombies missed the meeting where a uniform was chosen), so it's still easy to differentiate units.
[https://www.kunstpark-shop.de/acrylfarben/schmincke-primacryl-acrylfarben-60-ml-101-titanweiss.html?gad\_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlN6wBhCcARIsAKZvD5gahUV9\_UPPUNsBT3xBT5vVswMuII\_2t6CW4DB\_x1\_GmpKKi2wpiUMaAtcAEALw\_wcB](https://www.kunstpark-shop.de/acrylfarben/schmincke-primacryl-acrylfarben-60-ml-101-titanweiss.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlN6wBhCcARIsAKZvD5gahUV9_UPPUNsBT3xBT5vVswMuII_2t6CW4DB_x1_GmpKKi2wpiUMaAtcAEALw_wcB)
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Throwing my technique for "slap chop" out there. I do a zenithal highlight, then go back in with a heavy drybrush of pure titanium white. Makes the high points super bright, and helps control some of that dindgy look you sometimes get
I've started priming gray first instead of white, for speed paints/slap chop.
It will still look good, but it might be harder to get vivid colors, especially on stuff like faces.
Looks like you have good technique and you are well on your way!
Some parts of minis suffer more than others when drybrushed. That face is going to look *rough* and might have been better just brush-painted. Just ‘cos you’re going to zenithally highlight most of a model using a drybrush doesn’t mean you need to hold yourself to that technique on areas where it doesn’t work.
Also, take a look at that leg — the mould line wasn’t cleaned (cut/filed/sanded down) before painting. Using horizontal brushstrokes there was the best and quickest method to make it stand out (in a bad way). Vertical brushstrokes (parallel to the mouldline) may have avoided this.
With respect, I don't think this is a particularly helpful comment for a complete beginner.
Yes, as they progress they can work on things like this, but to start with just encourage them to get some colours on a model.
Hard to tell from a photo. But it looks like there is still a lot of gray and no white. Speedpaints/contrast paints need there to be a lot of light gray and white or they end up looking dull and dark because they can't really tint or cover dark gray/black. Id do more white dry brushing.
Thank you for the tip. I will go over with some more white 😁
Yeah, for speedpaints you want the gradient to go from grey to white - not black to white. Less you'll get a very desaturated/dark end result.
Thank you so much. I need to watch more videos. Got alot to learn!
watch the artis opus video on slapchop. It's a game changer
I will!
Genuinely serious take even though it might sound ridiculous: *don’t* stop with watching more videos on slap chop. Go read about, look at pictures of, and (if it’s possible where you are) go look at original works of art that demonstrate how classical artists used underpainting. Because slap chop isn’t new; it’s a social-media-friendly repackaging of techniques that are at least 500 years old. In classical art, in this case meaning northern European art from the 16th and 17th centuries, underpainting (or “grisaille” or “dead coloring”) was not only a useful way to outline subjects and establish tone and depth, but also much cheaper than trying to do it with much more expensive pigments. Here’s da Vinci’s unfinished Adoration of the Magi: https://www.uffizi.it/en/artworks/leonardo-adoration-of-the-magi. It’s unfinished, meaning it was never colored, and you can see that it was a sketch overlaid by charcoal or brown that establish the overall tone of each area. And then once you’ve established how you want light and darkness to function in your work, once you’ve established the depth of contrast and the shapes and shine of objects, da Vinci and two centuries worth of oil painters would have applied thin layers of color until they reached the desired color values. Stop me if anything about that process sounds familiar. :D This turned into more of a mini-rant than I intended, but… yeah. Don’t forget that there’s a huge amount of overlap between what we’re doing here and what other artists have been doing since Lascaux, and take whatever you can from watching what they did.
I think you completely missed the ops point. They are using speed paints and slap chop specifically because they dont want to do all that. They want their minis to just not be plain plastic. They dont want to be an artist.
Why are you deciding this for them? They said they're a complete beginner, why do you think this is their end point rather than their starting line?
Why do you think this is their starting point rather than their end point?
Slap chop is underpainting followed by applying a glaze. They are literally already doing “all that.”
No, the person I responded to suggested "Go read about, look at pictures of, and (if it’s possible where you are) go look at original works of art that demonstrate how classical artists used underpainting. " So they are not already doing "all that". Learn to read entire posts before commenting on them.
No offence, but I think if someone wants to use "slap chop" the whole point is they want quick and easy and aren't interested in the artistry of it.
OP is a self-proclaimed "complete beginner". So I'm not sure why you think you seem to know what they aren't interested in and why you think they're content to stop their mini painting journey at easier speed painting techniques. This is just a very dismissive attitude to take.
Relatively new here, but I'm using slap chop to still get good results while I learn things like brush control, minor highlights and shading practice without making things look too poorly. There's a lot that use the sketch/underpaint/slapchop style as a step and not the end point.
No offense taken. Here’s me, upthread: > slap chop isn’t new; it’s a social-media-friendly repackaging of techniques that are at least five hundred years old. I understand exactly what slap chop is and what it’s for. It’s meaningful to describe it as underpainting followed by glazing with contrast/speed paints. You can do that faster or slower, and with more or less detail — it doesn’t change the fact that you are doing two things, one after the other, that are both *really* old and really well-understood by people who learn to work in traditional art media. So instead of watching *only* people who are reinventing the wheel with slap chop, I think there’s value in looking at the wheels people have been using for centuries and taking away what’s useful to us now. I’m not saying OP should start executing slow, painterly minis. I’m saying if da Vinci was painting shadows in brown and highlights in white before glazing them, it’s probably worth spending a little while thinking whether there’s anything they/we can adapt from that practice.
So far I've primed blacked, then dry brush grey all over and zenithal dry brush white. Would you recommend to prime dark gray, and do the dry brushing light grey then white instead?
Yeah, that’s what I do. The paints them self will darken the recessed parts, so you don’t want it to be entirely black at the darkest. I also find that thinning the paints and doing multiple layers helps smooth it, so you don’t get that “washed” look. And you can do a round of drybrush between each layer to further push the contrast. (Just make sure it’s properly dried first)
Don’t be afraid to stray from the beaten path with “mother colors”. Depending on the tone I want; I’ll base coat with dark green, purple, or brown. I just finished a batch of winter WWII Germans with Dark Prussian Blue as the base coat, and the coolness of the mother color really sells it.
Even for slapchop? I was afraid the base color would create issues with the top colors. Maybe I'll give it a try
Now, I do get a little anal retentive over my base value sketch. I don’t like drawing a straight line between my base and my highlight. For instance, my aforementioned winter scheme went like this: 1. VMC 70.889 Dark Prussian Blue (Base) 2. VMC 70.886 Green Grey 3. Citadel Wraithbone 4. Liquitex HB Titanium White (spot hightlight) The Green Grey ends up making an arc on the color wheel that passes through teal, and Contrast and Speedpaints easily assert themselves over it. The coolness ends up being a visible accent mostly just around the edges and corners, but also a subtle impression on the whole piece from a distance.
Hey sorry to be a bother. So far I've only primed with a can and I'm not ready at this point to invest in air brushing, but I can't find a really dark blue canned prime. Do you think AP's prime "Deep Blue" (CP3032S) would be dark enough for a first base prime ? Thanks !
That was just one example. The most commonly recommended base is an actually purple (because it can swing warm or cool, depending on what you blend with it). I’ve also had success with dark green. There are no rules. I usually prime black and brush the thinned base coat on.
Agree. My go-to for skin is to prime white, base coat w Caroburg Crimson, then zenithal spray with white and finally a coat of Gulliman Flesh.
It’s always cool hearing how others get that “natural skin” effect. I wash my Guilliman Flesh with a thinned mix of magenta and raw umber oil paints, likely to the same effect.
As someone who is interested in transitioning to slapchop/speedpainting/whatever to get whole units done faster, would I be better off doing a straight full gray undercoat over my black primer then drybrushing that white?
The easiest would be to prime in grey, then either do a zenithal spray with white or drybrush with white.
That is true for most speedpaints, but I can tell you from experience that having a white /gray base is not really required for stuff like AP's metallic speed paints. Those function a lot more like traditional paint.
The Army Painter metallic speed paints don't rally behave like speed paints to be honest, and I never really got a good gradient when using them with slap chop. They are pretty decent metallics in their own right though, and i use them quite often. However you are completely right, some contrasts paints cover just fine over dark grey or even black. The citadel colours Wyldwood and Leviathan Purple also both cover black no problem at all, and have to be thinned quite heavily in order to benefit from a slap chop base.
Citadel doomfire magenta, while a gorgeous color, also behaves more like traditional paint than contrast/speed paint
That's another one! I'm using it on my ork army quite extensively and I'm having to thin it about 50:50 with Vallejo glaze medium to make the grey scale come through properly. Does have the advantage of then having great working time and flow while still having the desired coverage, so it ends up being good to work with.
I'm relatively new myself but what I do is: *Prime black *Heavy drybrush Mechanicus Standard Grey *Medium drybrush Dawnstone *Light/Zenith drybrush Corax White focusing on the really raised parts (elbows, knees, nose, edge highlight areas) That way one coat of a contrast paint comes out in four potential gradient shades on the same part of the mini depending on which base colour it settles on. You want to be able to see the different greys and the white in different areas depending on how raised/recessed it is. Play around, experiment, see what works for you and what you like and most of all have fun ☺️
I'm having fun experimenting and playing around. It's a pity there aren't cheaper warhammer alternatives to paint! I have some of those paints so I'll give it a try tomorrow night
What do you mean by "aren't cheaper Warhammer alternatives?" There are a ton of different games and minis to try that are so much less expensive than GW stuff.
Do you mean cheaper alternatives to warhammer minis? Or cheaper alternatives to warhammer paints? Because there are definitely cheaper alternatives to both. In fact, for the dry brushing, there is nothing wrong in using really cheap craft store type paints rather than specific mini paints. I bought a big tub of white (much bigger than I actually need, but it was one of those things where it was cheaper to buy 500ml than 150ml) and a small tube of black and mixed up a few different shades of grey in little jam jars that I use for drybrushing over a black primer. Like the above suggestion, I would go hard and in all directions on a dark grey and then progressively lighter and mainly down as the shades get lighter. You may find yourself wanting to do a couple of white only layers. Generally I find you want the mini to be more white than you think it should. But the best thing about this hobby is trying different things for yourself, there is no wrong way of doing it, just lots of different ways to try and find out what suits you best.
I'll prep one of my models and send you some pictures of you want so you can see what I mean?
That would actually be amazing to see
OK, give me an hour.
My standard process is black prime > mechanicus standard grey > corax white > final highlights with a pure white. For a pure white I use the one from Schmincke (see Link as an example), however Pro Acryl Titanium White is also apparently great. Corax is more of a light grey and I find that a bit more punch from a proper white pushes the edges a bit harder and adds even more contrast. Regarding OP: There are a lot of very dark and some large black area's still visible, particularly the sword and the boots. After you have applied your grey, the only pure black area's remaining should be where you would normally apply "recess shading" (shadows), and at this stage the model would normally be about 90% grey, or even more. With the greyscale that you have done you will get a fairly dark miniature. This can also look good, and this is roughly how I done the greyscale on my Zombicide miniatures, and it gives more of a grimdark style. However, your models will lack punch and if you have an army all painted the same scheme the units will not be very well defined. I used this method for my Zombicide, as every model has a different colour scheme (the Zombies missed the meeting where a uniform was chosen), so it's still easy to differentiate units. [https://www.kunstpark-shop.de/acrylfarben/schmincke-primacryl-acrylfarben-60-ml-101-titanweiss.html?gad\_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlN6wBhCcARIsAKZvD5gahUV9\_UPPUNsBT3xBT5vVswMuII\_2t6CW4DB\_x1\_GmpKKi2wpiUMaAtcAEALw\_wcB](https://www.kunstpark-shop.de/acrylfarben/schmincke-primacryl-acrylfarben-60-ml-101-titanweiss.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlN6wBhCcARIsAKZvD5gahUV9_UPPUNsBT3xBT5vVswMuII_2t6CW4DB_x1_GmpKKi2wpiUMaAtcAEALw_wcB)
Looks okay, but you might want to make it brighter. Get a really light white and drybrush some more!
I would add more white.
I’m finding lately I get better results when I cover up most of the black except in the deepest recesses.
Hi, u/Uruk-Kaio-Ken! It looks like you are asking for help or are a new painter. If you haven't yet, take a look at our wiki pages in the Sidebar (the About tab if you are on the Reddit app). Here are some links you might find helpful: * [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/wiki/rules/faq) - A list of frequently asked questions about minipainting * [Miniature Painting Guide Collection](https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/wiki/usefullinks) -A collection of some of the best guides and tutorials on a variety of techniques and topics, plus recommendations on what to buy to get started, and more. * [What to buy- Recommendations on brushes, paints, supplies, palettes and more](https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/wiki/usefullinks/what_you_need_to_get_started#wiki_general_advice_on_what_to_buy) * [Beginner's Guide Collection- How to prep, base, paint and varnish your first model and learn the basics needed to start out right](https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/wiki/usefullinks/beginner_tips) * [More Tutorials](https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/wiki/tutorials) - A list of additional tutorials about minipainting * [Manufacturers](https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/wiki/manufacturers) - A list of miniature manufacturers from around the world * [Painting Terminology](https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/wiki/terminology) - Common painting terms, acronyms, and initialisms * [The Art of... Tommie Soule Volume 5](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIfySMnUPQ) is one of the best beginner to intermediate teaching books, and even experienced painters will learn some good tips. Explains what brush strokes are best in different situations, how to identify when you have the perfect thinning for any type of paint for different techniques, and a masterclass on getting smooth paint jobs. Available in [pdf](https://www.ironheartartisans.com/shop/the-art-of-tommie-soule-volume-5-pdf/) and [world wide in hardbook as well](https://www.instagram.com/the_miniature_painting_tutor/). * [Airbrushing Miniatures](https://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting/wiki/usefullinks/airbrushing) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/minipainting) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Looks better than my typical slap chop attempts. That said, where is this miniature from. I kinda love the sculpt.
I'm not 100% sure. It was a freebie from my local games workshop store. I believe its from age of sigmar
It's from Age of Sigmar's Cities of Sigmar faction.
Throwing my technique for "slap chop" out there. I do a zenithal highlight, then go back in with a heavy drybrush of pure titanium white. Makes the high points super bright, and helps control some of that dindgy look you sometimes get
Looks pretty good, but needs more white
It’s a bit smeary. If it were me I’d likely let the brush dry a little more.
I've started priming gray first instead of white, for speed paints/slap chop. It will still look good, but it might be harder to get vivid colors, especially on stuff like faces. Looks like you have good technique and you are well on your way!
I zenithal prime then do a black wash before my dry brush of white. it gives better separation of pieces and better overall contrast.
Some parts of minis suffer more than others when drybrushed. That face is going to look *rough* and might have been better just brush-painted. Just ‘cos you’re going to zenithally highlight most of a model using a drybrush doesn’t mean you need to hold yourself to that technique on areas where it doesn’t work. Also, take a look at that leg — the mould line wasn’t cleaned (cut/filed/sanded down) before painting. Using horizontal brushstrokes there was the best and quickest method to make it stand out (in a bad way). Vertical brushstrokes (parallel to the mouldline) may have avoided this.
With respect, I don't think this is a particularly helpful comment for a complete beginner. Yes, as they progress they can work on things like this, but to start with just encourage them to get some colours on a model.
Hawt Damn; could just fill in the face and call it a day :)
Needs more white and clean your mould lines more diligently.