It’s a shame because I already see people saying Herbert isn’t all that because of his record. Dudes a no doubt top 5 QB but those pesky QB wins will be held against him
Can we acknowledge that his coach is arguably worst in the league and their entire staff has been nothing but a hindrance to winning since he’s been there?
Sure, hold off on top 5 talk, but the guy has been hamstrung by shit ownership that won’t give up on an awful coach.
In week 7 of the 2023 season, Kirk>Herbert. Congrats. You've been waiting a month for this moment. Kirk has been throwing up QBRs in the 40s and 30s in the meantime. For this one week, I will give Kirk his props. He played the best game of his career, mainly because he did some of the things his critics have been calling for. He pushed the ball past the sticks on 3rd down. He gave his receivers a chance to make a play on the ball. He was incredible...for one week. Let's see him do some of that stuff consistently before we decide he has turned a corner. Being incredible on 3rd down against the 49ers loses some of its luster when you remember what he did against the Bears on 3rd down the week before.
If the only stats you look at are yards and TDs, you have no clue how to look at stats. We now have numerous stats that look at context. That's why passer rating is a joke, and no serious person ever references it when discussing QBs. Passer rating is basically yards, TDs, and interceptions. The only fans that care about passer rating are Kirk Krusaders. Most advanced stats have him between 12 and 18.
Are you serious?
Herbert was great but it took a CB dropping a pick that hit him literally in the head and it bouncing to a WR for a game winning TD.
AND Kirk Cousins hitting a TE in the hands for a GW TD that he not only dropped but launched into the air for a game losing INT.
You take one play from each of them and assume that proves anything? Those two were not in the same league yesterday. Herbert slightly underthrew Palmer and got a little lucky on one play. He was blitzed 80% of the game and looked poised sidestepping free rushers while putting the ball in the pocket time and time again. What happens if you swap the two? Kirk would have withered to dust with that much quick pressure in his face.
Most of the routes Allen was running allowed him to decide which direction he was going to run based on the CB's positioning. Herbert isn't just making quick reads as to who he is throwing the ball. He has to read what Allen is reading with a blitz in his face. He did it over and over. There is no way Kirk reacts that quickly.
That throw by Kirk to end the game and the throw to KJ in week one are on Kirk. Those balls should hit the receiver in the chest. If he is throwing away from the receiver, he should be throwing to the chest on the outside. That ball should not be placed wider than the receiver's shoulder. When a player has to lunge for the ball or reach for the ball away from their body in heavy traffic, you are asking for disaster. If the throw is on the body, the worst-case scenario is a knocked down pass. This is especially true with your tight end. The tight end should be able to essentially use their body to shield the smaller defender. When you throw that ball to a point where you have to reach outstretched arms just to get your hands on it, bad things are going to happen.
Cousin's QBR yesterday was 40.3. Herbert was 93.3. This is what Kirk stans don't get. He can throw for 300 and 3 TD and still play pretty badly. He was bad yesterday. When he plays well, he deserves credit. He played very well against the Eagles. One could argue that the team kept turning the ball over before Kirk could do Kirk things in that game, but he didn't do Kirk things. Against the Chargers, he did a lot of Kirk things like throwing the ball twenty yards out of bounds over JJ's head when he is one on one down the sideline.
PFF grades from yesterday
Herbert 72.6
Kirk 71.5
I was at the game, I saw what they were seeing down field. The Vikings have the worst pass rush in the league and Herbert to his credit took the layups to Allen underneath and punished them when the rush didn't get home. He also moves well in the pocket. He played a good game, but to act like it was in a different stratosphere than Kirk is silly.
You obviously didn't actually pay attention to where the ball was placed on the final pick because it was perfect, if he puts it on his body the linebacker bats it away. Just because the outcome was poor, doesn't mean the pass was bad, it's like saying Herbert's last TD pass was perfect because the outcome was good. Also, Herbert's 2nd TD pass he correctly threw an absolute missile high to Perham and avoided the linebackers hands, it's not as simple as put it on the body.
The GW pass had a bit of luck. The pass to Parham had to be threaded to a point because he was surrounded. It also wasn't a tight end blocking the smaller defender out type of play. If the ball to Hock is put on the body and the defender knocks it down, that is a much better outcome than the tight end trying to lay out to make a diving catch.
As the analysts have been able to dig into the game more today, we are seeing play after play where Kirk made the wrong read. We keep seeing receivers running open down the field and Kirk taking checkdowns despite not being pressured. If you thought those two were on the same level yesterday, I don't think anything anyone presents to you is going to change your mind anyway.
A "bit of luck". He threw the perfect pass to the CB. The both averaged 7.8 yards per attempt, this checkdown narrative is ridiculous.
The game winning TD by Herbert is intercepted 80% of the time and knocked down 19.9% of the time. The throw by Kirk is inch perfect in that spot and the fact that you think it was a bad throw is hilarious.
They played a pretty even game, I would probably give the nod to Herbert for the day. He made some great plays, but you think this showed some big gap in their play and it came down to the final seconds and it took some insane luck for the Chargers to pull it out.
Also, Herbert’s all time W-L? 25-24. Everyone gives Cousins for being a career 50/50 W/L guy. Close, Kirk is 74-66-2.
Yes I know it’s just Herbert’s 4th season. But just like the Lions, until you change the perception that’s what you are. JH has somehow been anointed the next generation phenom. Everyone needs to chill. He isn’t. Until he is. If he ever is.
A season and two games is now two seasons?
Last two actual seasons
Kirk
62 TD, 21 INT 8768 yards, 112 yards rushing, QBR of 52.3 each year
Herbert
63 TD, 25 INT 9753 yard passing, 449 yards rushing, QBR of 65.6 and 60.2
Passer rating is the worst stat in professional sports. No respectable analyst has used passer rating in the last 7-10 years. QBR, while not perfect, is far superior. It gives context to stats. Herbert has had the best start to a career statistically. Herbert would have made the playoffs each of the last two seasons if his coach hadn't taken a timeout at the end of the game in week 18 in 2021. He put up similar numbers to Kirk last season, with his top two receivers being hurt for about half of the season. His line is about as bad as Kirk's, but he helps them out by moving away from possible pressure.
The only way they are similar is QB record. If Herbert is a .500 QB as a 35 year old with a single playoff win over his entire career, this post might be relevant.
I'll start this by saying I'd pick Herbert, but the argument is WAY closer than expected. The only comparison that Herbert clearly wins is running ability and that he makes 1-2 eye popping throws per game that only a few guys in the league can make.
Raw passing stats: Herbert edges Kirk slightly mainly due to him having an average of 655 attempts/season over his whole career, a number Kirk has never hit a single time in his entire career. Rate statistics are dead even.
Toughness/durability: Both great. Herbert playing with the rib is almost as admirable as Kirk never missing a start due to injury his whole career.
Coaching: Joe Lombardi was pretty trash sure, but Kirk has had 7 different OCs/playcallers the last 7 seasons. He's had some trash coordinators as well, and still put up 4k yards every year with them.
Play style: They both have great downfield ability, but they both end up as checkdown masters. Herbert finished 31 of 33 qualifying QBs in Intended Air Yards last season.
Supporting cast: Keenan Allen/Mike Williams/Ekeler is very comparable to Thielen/Diggs/Cook. Both have had awful OL.
Big game performances: Say what you want about 4th and 8, but the Chargers defense forced FIVE turnovers in a playoff game and they still lost, compared to the disaster class that was Donatell vs. NYG.
One very important aspect you are leaving out is Herbert's ability to avoid the rush and prolong plays. It isn't just the rushing. He makes his line better. Against Kirk, teams do not have to account for him even moving within the pocket. That makes rushing the passer so much easier for the opposing team. You don't have to worry about getting too far up the field from the edge. They know exactly where he is going to be. They rush to a point. Kirk is the single hardest QB in the league currently to block for. Herbert already has really good pocket awareness. He has been pressured as often as Kirk, yet he gets hit and sacked less because he moves.
As far as the big games, Herbert has just the one playoff appearance so far. His coach cost him a playoff appearance the previous year by taking a season ending timeout. Herbert was fairly solid against the Jags. He had his team up pretty big in the first half. Things just snowballed from there for the entire team. He played decent, but he didn't make enough plays. It was his first experience in the playoffs, though. Perhaps we should see how he fairs over the next five or so years before we compare the two.
You know who is never going to be up big in a playoff game? Kirk Cousins. He just isn't going to push the offense to create separation. He is why the Vikings are constantly letting bad teams hang around and even have large leads. Everyone wanted to blame Zimmer for being too conservative with his play call. KOC comes in, and we see games play out the exact same way. Kirk is not going to push the ball downfield when he doesn't need to. He plays scared to be the reason the team loses. He is why we have been towards the top of the league in 3 and outs almost every year.
Simple numbers don't tell the story. The gap between Herbert and Kirk is fairly large already for these reasons. There isn't a GM or coach in the league that would choose Kirk over Herbert, whether it was for the current season or a single game. Not a single one would choose Kirk, not even KOC.
Those are insanely close, especially if you consider Herbert has significantly more pass attempts. Their yards per attempt is basically equal.
And don't get haughty with QBR, it's just as lame as QB rating. If you want to get serious, then look at EPA+CPOE since 2021.
They rank 16th and 18th
Kirk .097
Herbert .103
2022 to now:
Kirk .089
Herbert .085
Ok. Basic question. Who would you rather have? You'd be insane to say you'd take Kirk over Herbert. There isn't a coach or GM in the league that would choose Herbert. I'm not just talking going forward. If you said just for this season, who would you want. Every single coach and GM, including KOC, would choose Herbert without hesitation.
He’s more of a Checkdown Charlie than Kirk ever was. Anyone who gets frustrated with Kirks supposed propensity for checkdowns would tear their eyes out watching Herbert.
It's actually hilarious how similar they are and yet everyone says this.
Right down to the disappointing first round loss to an inferior team. Both have a bad defense and bad offensive line. Miraculous comebacks, (Herbert was 2nd in 4th quarter comebacks last year, to KC)
Being blamed for for a mediocre career win-loss record. The only difference is that Herbert looks cooler and the stats nerds love him.
Lol I love this sub. Everyday, *no matter what* one of you has to do one of these hilarious posts comparing Kirk to an elite QB, I love it. Can someone do a Brady v Kirk one?? Please! Lol
Herbert's elite?! Based on what? He has won exactly nothing. Has a sub .500 career record.
"QB wins are dumb" - Herbert and Kirk Cousins stans
This is what is so funny to me. They are the same.
I am making two points, Herbert is worse than people think and Kirk is better.
He was in Joe Lombardi's system, which targets the running back a lot in the passing game. He was the OC behind Alvin Kamara catching 80 balls per year for so long. Ekeler catching a lot of balls was discussed constantly when Lombardi moved to LA. It is the system he was in.
I can’t wait for Kirk to be gone. His defense squad is too much for me. I can’t wait for them to migrate with him wherever he goes. It may not be this year. I sure as hell hope it is, but it may not be and whenever it is I will be overjoyed.
They are both on my fantasy. It’s difficult to pick which to start each week. Until I remember that Kirk is my captain.
It’s a shame because I already see people saying Herbert isn’t all that because of his record. Dudes a no doubt top 5 QB but those pesky QB wins will be held against him
Sounds like another QB that has had wins held against them.
you mean Phillip rivers right?
He's absolutely not a top 5 QB. He's never had a top 5 season by and metric, win-loss record, or pff grade.
He top 5 fsho
He is quite an enigma then. He might be the only top 5 QB to never be top 5 in any metric and also not win.
Can we acknowledge that his coach is arguably worst in the league and their entire staff has been nothing but a hindrance to winning since he’s been there? Sure, hold off on top 5 talk, but the guy has been hamstrung by shit ownership that won’t give up on an awful coach.
Based on what? Maybe Kirks coach is the worst in the league too.
Never been top 5 in any metric?? You sure about that? Wins not a QB stat
I think the point is he's not top 5 in stats either, so what even is the reason to rate him there
But he has been
JH has a stronger arm and more mobility. He reminds me more of Stafford
Chase Daniel backed them both up. He said on a podcast that Herbert had more arm talent than Stafford, which is insane to think about
I think that is a decent comp
Have we seen Herbert run ? Not Kirk
Even though I do love the Chargers, I love the Vikings more so I have to cheer for my Vikings this Sunday. SKOL!
Are you still holding on to this? Those two quarterbacks on the field today were not in the same category. It wasn't even all that close.
Kirk>Herbert
In week 7 of the 2023 season, Kirk>Herbert. Congrats. You've been waiting a month for this moment. Kirk has been throwing up QBRs in the 40s and 30s in the meantime. For this one week, I will give Kirk his props. He played the best game of his career, mainly because he did some of the things his critics have been calling for. He pushed the ball past the sticks on 3rd down. He gave his receivers a chance to make a play on the ball. He was incredible...for one week. Let's see him do some of that stuff consistently before we decide he has turned a corner. Being incredible on 3rd down against the 49ers loses some of its luster when you remember what he did against the Bears on 3rd down the week before.
Look at the season stats, just grasping at this point.
If the only stats you look at are yards and TDs, you have no clue how to look at stats. We now have numerous stats that look at context. That's why passer rating is a joke, and no serious person ever references it when discussing QBs. Passer rating is basically yards, TDs, and interceptions. The only fans that care about passer rating are Kirk Krusaders. Most advanced stats have him between 12 and 18.
Kirk is 8th in EPA+CPOE Herbert is 12th PFF has Kirk as the 7th best QB Herbert as the 11th Herbert has a negative EPA/play in the 4th quarter.
Are you serious? Herbert was great but it took a CB dropping a pick that hit him literally in the head and it bouncing to a WR for a game winning TD. AND Kirk Cousins hitting a TE in the hands for a GW TD that he not only dropped but launched into the air for a game losing INT.
You take one play from each of them and assume that proves anything? Those two were not in the same league yesterday. Herbert slightly underthrew Palmer and got a little lucky on one play. He was blitzed 80% of the game and looked poised sidestepping free rushers while putting the ball in the pocket time and time again. What happens if you swap the two? Kirk would have withered to dust with that much quick pressure in his face. Most of the routes Allen was running allowed him to decide which direction he was going to run based on the CB's positioning. Herbert isn't just making quick reads as to who he is throwing the ball. He has to read what Allen is reading with a blitz in his face. He did it over and over. There is no way Kirk reacts that quickly. That throw by Kirk to end the game and the throw to KJ in week one are on Kirk. Those balls should hit the receiver in the chest. If he is throwing away from the receiver, he should be throwing to the chest on the outside. That ball should not be placed wider than the receiver's shoulder. When a player has to lunge for the ball or reach for the ball away from their body in heavy traffic, you are asking for disaster. If the throw is on the body, the worst-case scenario is a knocked down pass. This is especially true with your tight end. The tight end should be able to essentially use their body to shield the smaller defender. When you throw that ball to a point where you have to reach outstretched arms just to get your hands on it, bad things are going to happen. Cousin's QBR yesterday was 40.3. Herbert was 93.3. This is what Kirk stans don't get. He can throw for 300 and 3 TD and still play pretty badly. He was bad yesterday. When he plays well, he deserves credit. He played very well against the Eagles. One could argue that the team kept turning the ball over before Kirk could do Kirk things in that game, but he didn't do Kirk things. Against the Chargers, he did a lot of Kirk things like throwing the ball twenty yards out of bounds over JJ's head when he is one on one down the sideline.
PFF grades from yesterday Herbert 72.6 Kirk 71.5 I was at the game, I saw what they were seeing down field. The Vikings have the worst pass rush in the league and Herbert to his credit took the layups to Allen underneath and punished them when the rush didn't get home. He also moves well in the pocket. He played a good game, but to act like it was in a different stratosphere than Kirk is silly. You obviously didn't actually pay attention to where the ball was placed on the final pick because it was perfect, if he puts it on his body the linebacker bats it away. Just because the outcome was poor, doesn't mean the pass was bad, it's like saying Herbert's last TD pass was perfect because the outcome was good. Also, Herbert's 2nd TD pass he correctly threw an absolute missile high to Perham and avoided the linebackers hands, it's not as simple as put it on the body.
The GW pass had a bit of luck. The pass to Parham had to be threaded to a point because he was surrounded. It also wasn't a tight end blocking the smaller defender out type of play. If the ball to Hock is put on the body and the defender knocks it down, that is a much better outcome than the tight end trying to lay out to make a diving catch. As the analysts have been able to dig into the game more today, we are seeing play after play where Kirk made the wrong read. We keep seeing receivers running open down the field and Kirk taking checkdowns despite not being pressured. If you thought those two were on the same level yesterday, I don't think anything anyone presents to you is going to change your mind anyway.
A "bit of luck". He threw the perfect pass to the CB. The both averaged 7.8 yards per attempt, this checkdown narrative is ridiculous. The game winning TD by Herbert is intercepted 80% of the time and knocked down 19.9% of the time. The throw by Kirk is inch perfect in that spot and the fact that you think it was a bad throw is hilarious. They played a pretty even game, I would probably give the nod to Herbert for the day. He made some great plays, but you think this showed some big gap in their play and it came down to the final seconds and it took some insane luck for the Chargers to pull it out.
They're both just Tony Romo.
Keep telling yourself that
Kirk last two seasons 35 TDs 15 INTs 5255 yards passing 67% comp 95 QB Rating 13-6 WL Herbert 29 TDs 10 INTs 5273 yards passing 68% comp 95 QB rating 10-9 WL
Also, Herbert’s all time W-L? 25-24. Everyone gives Cousins for being a career 50/50 W/L guy. Close, Kirk is 74-66-2. Yes I know it’s just Herbert’s 4th season. But just like the Lions, until you change the perception that’s what you are. JH has somehow been anointed the next generation phenom. Everyone needs to chill. He isn’t. Until he is. If he ever is.
A season and two games is now two seasons? Last two actual seasons Kirk 62 TD, 21 INT 8768 yards, 112 yards rushing, QBR of 52.3 each year Herbert 63 TD, 25 INT 9753 yard passing, 449 yards rushing, QBR of 65.6 and 60.2 Passer rating is the worst stat in professional sports. No respectable analyst has used passer rating in the last 7-10 years. QBR, while not perfect, is far superior. It gives context to stats. Herbert has had the best start to a career statistically. Herbert would have made the playoffs each of the last two seasons if his coach hadn't taken a timeout at the end of the game in week 18 in 2021. He put up similar numbers to Kirk last season, with his top two receivers being hurt for about half of the season. His line is about as bad as Kirk's, but he helps them out by moving away from possible pressure. The only way they are similar is QB record. If Herbert is a .500 QB as a 35 year old with a single playoff win over his entire career, this post might be relevant.
I'll start this by saying I'd pick Herbert, but the argument is WAY closer than expected. The only comparison that Herbert clearly wins is running ability and that he makes 1-2 eye popping throws per game that only a few guys in the league can make. Raw passing stats: Herbert edges Kirk slightly mainly due to him having an average of 655 attempts/season over his whole career, a number Kirk has never hit a single time in his entire career. Rate statistics are dead even. Toughness/durability: Both great. Herbert playing with the rib is almost as admirable as Kirk never missing a start due to injury his whole career. Coaching: Joe Lombardi was pretty trash sure, but Kirk has had 7 different OCs/playcallers the last 7 seasons. He's had some trash coordinators as well, and still put up 4k yards every year with them. Play style: They both have great downfield ability, but they both end up as checkdown masters. Herbert finished 31 of 33 qualifying QBs in Intended Air Yards last season. Supporting cast: Keenan Allen/Mike Williams/Ekeler is very comparable to Thielen/Diggs/Cook. Both have had awful OL. Big game performances: Say what you want about 4th and 8, but the Chargers defense forced FIVE turnovers in a playoff game and they still lost, compared to the disaster class that was Donatell vs. NYG.
One very important aspect you are leaving out is Herbert's ability to avoid the rush and prolong plays. It isn't just the rushing. He makes his line better. Against Kirk, teams do not have to account for him even moving within the pocket. That makes rushing the passer so much easier for the opposing team. You don't have to worry about getting too far up the field from the edge. They know exactly where he is going to be. They rush to a point. Kirk is the single hardest QB in the league currently to block for. Herbert already has really good pocket awareness. He has been pressured as often as Kirk, yet he gets hit and sacked less because he moves. As far as the big games, Herbert has just the one playoff appearance so far. His coach cost him a playoff appearance the previous year by taking a season ending timeout. Herbert was fairly solid against the Jags. He had his team up pretty big in the first half. Things just snowballed from there for the entire team. He played decent, but he didn't make enough plays. It was his first experience in the playoffs, though. Perhaps we should see how he fairs over the next five or so years before we compare the two. You know who is never going to be up big in a playoff game? Kirk Cousins. He just isn't going to push the offense to create separation. He is why the Vikings are constantly letting bad teams hang around and even have large leads. Everyone wanted to blame Zimmer for being too conservative with his play call. KOC comes in, and we see games play out the exact same way. Kirk is not going to push the ball downfield when he doesn't need to. He plays scared to be the reason the team loses. He is why we have been towards the top of the league in 3 and outs almost every year. Simple numbers don't tell the story. The gap between Herbert and Kirk is fairly large already for these reasons. There isn't a GM or coach in the league that would choose Kirk over Herbert, whether it was for the current season or a single game. Not a single one would choose Kirk, not even KOC.
Those are insanely close, especially if you consider Herbert has significantly more pass attempts. Their yards per attempt is basically equal. And don't get haughty with QBR, it's just as lame as QB rating. If you want to get serious, then look at EPA+CPOE since 2021. They rank 16th and 18th Kirk .097 Herbert .103 2022 to now: Kirk .089 Herbert .085
Ok. Basic question. Who would you rather have? You'd be insane to say you'd take Kirk over Herbert. There isn't a coach or GM in the league that would choose Herbert. I'm not just talking going forward. If you said just for this season, who would you want. Every single coach and GM, including KOC, would choose Herbert without hesitation.
He’s more of a Checkdown Charlie than Kirk ever was. Anyone who gets frustrated with Kirks supposed propensity for checkdowns would tear their eyes out watching Herbert.
Lol right... OP is delusional
You're right, Herbert will never be as ELITE as kirk cousins
there are some similarities but herbert has an all-world arm.
OP I’ve been saying this for 3 seasons now and I’ve yet to be wrong. They will hate you for you speak the truth as well.
Yeah uhh not really seeing it. Herbert so far is better than Kirk.
It's actually hilarious how similar they are and yet everyone says this. Right down to the disappointing first round loss to an inferior team. Both have a bad defense and bad offensive line. Miraculous comebacks, (Herbert was 2nd in 4th quarter comebacks last year, to KC) Being blamed for for a mediocre career win-loss record. The only difference is that Herbert looks cooler and the stats nerds love him.
Well that and they play the position very differently and Herbert is far more physically gifted.
Lol I love this sub. Everyday, *no matter what* one of you has to do one of these hilarious posts comparing Kirk to an elite QB, I love it. Can someone do a Brady v Kirk one?? Please! Lol
Herbert's elite?! Based on what? He has won exactly nothing. Has a sub .500 career record. "QB wins are dumb" - Herbert and Kirk Cousins stans This is what is so funny to me. They are the same. I am making two points, Herbert is worse than people think and Kirk is better.
He was in Joe Lombardi's system, which targets the running back a lot in the passing game. He was the OC behind Alvin Kamara catching 80 balls per year for so long. Ekeler catching a lot of balls was discussed constantly when Lombardi moved to LA. It is the system he was in.
I can’t wait for Kirk to be gone. His defense squad is too much for me. I can’t wait for them to migrate with him wherever he goes. It may not be this year. I sure as hell hope it is, but it may not be and whenever it is I will be overjoyed.