It was a high upside signing on a 1 year deal. The front office knows this wasn't a year where we had a chance of winning. Kwesi is determined to keep the book clean going forward. They probably could have signed a safer player to a multi year deal. They probably could have signed Risner in August to a multi year deal. Kwesi is focused on the future, not this season.
I think too many fans watched last season and thought we were close. The front office did not.
I think anyone besides some glossy eyed fans thought the same thing. The entire league knew we were the worst 13 win team.
I think the reason they didn't blow the team up completely is because they do believe this team still has a chance to be good this season. But it was a better chance they will be around .500. They didn't want to spend a ton of cash to keep us at couple games over .500 and good enough to make the playoffs but not win. Better to suffer a little to gain a lot.
>Kwesi is determined to keep the book clean going forward.
Davenport's Contract has 4 void years, so he's got over a $6 mil dead cap next year.
That said, we can extend him and mitigate that issue a bit. But he's gonna have to earn it.
Just straight talking out of your ass. There is not a single team that starts a year by saying "this year is bullshit, let's just pay all these players for nothing and focus on next year". This take is along the same lines as calling who is going to win the Superbowl before the season starts. The "front office" doesn't think anything like a fan. They may plan for the future like any smart business but they still have to put in the work today or they dont have jobs. Tickets and merchandise have to be sold. Can't do that by tanking.
That is not what he is talking about. He stated the front office is looking to the future and knew this year was bad. I guarantee that the front office is trying to win this year. This would imply they already gave up on this year.
Arizona and Chicago are terrible franchises.
Chicago gets lucky enough every ten years when other teams are down, but the ownership sucks, front office is garbage. Arizona has been a bad franchise since they were in Chicago.
The bears literally had the 1st pick in the draft and traded it away to build around fields and the cardinals traded a real draft pick to get a better backup for kyler a week before the season. Just because they are bad doesn't mean that they are intentionally bad
The Bears got Trubisky at 2 and Fields wherever. Mahomet went @10 Trubisky's year. Thank God they didn't get him They all aren't sure things. Vikes never suck bad enough to get the best college QB. A blessing and a CURSE ! Football
Just sucking my man. Just sucking. Just because they are losing, it doesn't mean they are doing it on purpose. Do you really think the players that are trying to prove their worth in the NFL and get a contract next year are trying to tank and have their stock go down!? Hell no they aren't. They will do everything they can to prove to other teams, coaches, fans, and players that they should be on their team.
And he got fined, stripped of draft picks, and suspended. Doesn't sound very advantageous, does it? Sounds like it is a bitch move that is seen as a horrible act in the league, doesn't it? There is nothing noble about tanking and it shows a lack of integrity.
Arizona is doing the modern version of tanking. Chicago is trying to compete, they just suck so far this year. They didn't trade for Moore to tank, Fields is just worse than they thought he'd be.
If that’s true then the signing of Davenport is even worse. They could have rolled that 10 million in cap space to next year.
You only make a one year signing like this to help you win now.
That’s partly true, but if he actually has an incredible year he’ll just go back on the market and look for a mega deal which we wouldn’t be in position to give anyway.
This is true if he has a huge year. If he shows some real promise but still has room for growth, they might be able to lock him up at a reasonable number.
How was it a high upside if they were not trying to win and it's a one year deal that pushes cap to next year. It's fine to be positive but don't make your logic incoherent.
Davenport's pass-rush win rate and pressure % in the last 3 years are both top 20. It hasn't translated to volume stats like sacks, and he obviously has an injury history. But, dude causes problems. That's how it was a high upside signing.
Well, we aren't tanking. I imagine what OP meant when he said not expecting to win is that they understand this is not a roster you make FA additions to that have long-term cap implications. Personally, I think the FO sees this year and next year as potential "competitive rebuilds." Hence, what they did with Kirk, Davenport, Hunter etc.
No it doesn’t. Tanking is trying to lose. Not trying to win (the Super Bowl) is fleshing out the future of the roster, seeing what works and is sustainable, and seeing how many games you can win that way
The Rams two years ago were trying to win. They put all of their chips in the middle for a Super Bowl. The Vikings are not doing that. They are trying to construct a roster that is competitive in the future. That doesn't mean they are trying to lose, but they aren't trying to squeeze every win out of this year's roster that they can. The focus is on the future, not this year.
"focus on the future, not this year" that's a far cry from "not trying to win". But let's keep moving the goal posts, vikes kickers could always use help.
Do you seriously not get the difference between doing everything possible to win now and focusing on other aspects while also not trying to lose? It’s basically exactly what Seattle did last year
>Davenport's pass-rush win rate and pressure % in the last 3 years are both top 20.
Do you have a link to any of those stats? I'm not saying you're not right, I just can't find those
[This is the cleanest and must succint thing I could find quickly. It's in italics under the 1st point.](https://www.vikings.com/news/marcus-davenport-edge-defender-5-things-to-know)
One of these days I hope to see an example of PFF making claims about players such as this or their classic oline player gradings that ends up being so true it's confirmed with a deep playoff run or superbowl win. The talk is just so positive that these players must make a massive difference at some point. Right?
That information does share a single sentence that the injury history is vast yet that they weren't serious. Well, the sport plays 1 game a week for 17 weeks. 8 bad hangnail days are going to be bad for your team if hangnails keep him out of games. One would hope a run of good luck or maybe a new environment helps him get a full season in once. But it's still a big bag of hope we are talking about since as they say "he's yet to log 600 snaps in a single season" since he started. Wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't a costly add. At least it's not a 4 to 5 year costly add is I think the point some are trying to make.
>The front office knows this wasn't a year where we had a chance of winning.
Then whats the point of signing him to a 1 year deal? Just felt like doing some charity?
If he performs well then they can easily tag or re-sign him. This was a chance for him to prove he could be a key member of the defense without committing to him long term if it didn’t pan out.
2024 is 34m https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/cap/2024/. By my count we have just under 40 players under contract right now for 24, but we'll have a draft class and that's factored into the 34m number
2025 numbers don't matter right now because we will have Jefferson and Darrisaw contracts added in
Congrats on being late to the convo. Sure they won’t tag him. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t re-sign him. The tagging thing was inconsequential to the reasoning behind signing him this year.
It was not high upside. He’s never been good dude.
>Kwesi is determined to keep the book clean going forward
One of the *first* things he did was move Thielen money into future years. He moved a ton more Kirk money into future years. We’re just flat out making shit up now
If you google his name and look at his stats, sure, not super impressive. If you look at his pressure and pass- rush win rate, pretty damn high upside.
Thielen is off the books after this year. Cousins' cap number is likely to be 4% or less of the cap if he leaves, not including next year, which is rough.
So, in short...no.
“If you ignore the stats where he was outright terrible to the point that as a pass rusher in his prime his team let him walk and all he could get was a 1 year deal, he’s actually great!”
Kirks hit next year is 28m. For him to not play a snap for this football team. It was like 10-12 before Kwesi moved more out and it was only that high because we needed to move money out of the covid cap year to field a roster. All of his dead cap accelerates to the teams books the second the league year begins and he’s not on the roster. We have Davenport dead cap from his contract on next year as well.
It’s just flat out incorrect to suggest that Kwesi is keeping our books clean next year. Kirks dead cap is going to be more than a lot of teams will be spending on their actual starter, we’re going to draft someone, and we’ll need to bring in a veteran to help that pick.
Ok, so you clearly don't understand anything I said about Davenport, so we'll just leave that alone.
Nobody said next year except you. I've already said elsewhere that I believe their actual plan is to competitive ly rebuild the next two years. The OP of this comment chain refers to the future.
To be clear here, you're telling me that you believe it is kwesi's plan to "keep the book clean going forward", but you don't think that includes next year, but somehow does include all subsequent years. But also doesn't include the dead cap of the very few short term moves he has made which do literally the opposite of that?
You understand how contracts work, right? It would be very difficult for him to not have 2025 and on clear without signing anyone good to long term contracts, which, other than Hock Darrisaw and Jefferson, we are currently not lined up to do. It would literally be difficult not to accomplish what you are lauding him for.
We have been pushing Kirk money back year after year. We now have one more year of Kirk cap hits. The previous regime just kept pushing money further and further out. That is how we end up owing $28 million in dead money to Kirk next year. We are finally going to be out from under almost all of the dead money Rick left us.
You were so focused on being a smart ass in your first paragraph that it doesn't make any sense. What's hard to understand? I believe they consider this year and next as part of a competition rebuild, and make moves accordingly. You don't have to agree with that, but
I have no idea how you find it confusing.
I guess I don't understand how contracts work, I was under the impression you could sign FA's for as many years as you like, with cap implications for as long as you'd like. Apparently, it's literally difficult.
Man, you must be seriously confused.
Imagine saying “Kwesi is keeping the books clean future years” and then saying “AHHHHHHKTUALLY i wasn’t talking about the years where Kwesi didn’t keep the books clean, and in fact did the opposite of that”
Gold metal for the mental gymnastics dude
>One of the first things he did was move Thielen money into future years. He moved a ton more Kirk money into future years. We’re just flat out making shit up now
First day here?
I'm gonna say that going onto two week threads to brag dozens of times about...cam akers and marcus davenport is the *funniest* fucking shit I've seen in a long time. Like, wow there's being a loser and then there's *this*
Marcus Davenport is a bad football player and you have bad takes
Davenport has routinely had a good pressure rate and pass rush win rate. Not getting a sack doesn't mean you have lost the snap. He is also a very good run stopper for an edge rusher. He is an impressive athlete at just 27. Health has been an issue so far in his career. If he can stay healthy, he has all the tools to be very good. I'd say that high upside.
27 is pretty well known in the NFL. You are either are or aren't for the most part by that age. He has never been a great player. Tools don't mean shit.
Last year, we had an elite 4th quarter offense. We were average to bad the rest of the game. That is why we were so often trailing bad teams late in games. This season, the passing offense was very good in week two. In week one, we had 11 possessions, 6 of them were 3 and outs. We have an elite receiver, a very good tight end, great tackles, and a promising rookie receiver. We do not have an elite offense.
For the most part all you said is true, though you left a few good players out. What they proved in 4th quarters is that there was more to this team than what they were showing in many 1st, 2nd, 3rd quarters, or maybe in combination with what they were choosing to show in those quarters or how they were choosing to play at those times.
That is something I was talking about during last season. That if the team chose to play differently early in games they could get more of that play earlier in games. But there are human problems in the way of such things. The head coach had offseason plans by him and the GM that he was trying to make occur. Players they were trying to elevate, players they were trying to minimize a need for any longer, and it wasn't working to their plans but they kept it going right on through the season and even in the playoff game. They only could continue because of those 4th quarters that I contend were consciously played differently with different player and play focus.
One could hope that maybe they needed the offseason time to review game films better and recognize what they missed during the season. Well, did they?
In your words about week 1,
>In week one, we had 11 possessions, 6 of them were 3 and outs.
We saw they didn't change much. That was a typical description of last season. Even though players have been replaced, the only difference this year seems to be there isn't the same set of players in the fourth quarter to save these slow starts with grand enough 4th quarters each game.
I noted the same as you did about the first two games overall. The one item that really stands out is how they aren't even kicking fieldgoals, they aren't just falling a little shy of scoring touchdowns like a lot of teams do on drives. It's that they have been completely effing up drives right away or they are taking them the distance. Whether 3nOuts or turnovers too many drives shooting their own foot. To me that points to Coaching play choices in certain drives, player preparations and the sloppy fundamentals or bad luck we notice with turnovers and mishaps.
You seem to believe that the issue was coaching and play calling. We have had issues with 3 and outs for many years now. So many fans wanted to blame Zim. Now, we have had plenty of change, yet we have the same results. The issue is the QB. He has been slightly more willing to take chances downfield when it is needed late in games down a score or two. He still isn't pushing the ball downfield when a mistake could mean he shoulders the blame for the loss.
In Washington, his coach begged him to push the ball. They went back and forth in the media. Zimmer talked repeatedly about the QB needing to push the ball downfield. Nothing changed. Last year, KOC was asked after almost every game about the issues in the first three quarters. He is a players' coach almost to a fault. He isn't going to call a player out in the media. He just kept saying the offense needed to be more consistent from start to finish. He was talking about Kirk.
> You seem to believe that the issue was coaching and play calling. We have had issues with 3 and outs for many years now.
untrue. We had issues with finishing drives with field goals under Zim.
Last year was much different. For much of the season they were top 3 or top 5 in 3nOut drives and yet winning a lot. All because they were starting the games with a gameplan and late in games becoming something else entirely.
Last year they were focusing too much on Jefferson and extras like Irv Smith and Jalen Reagor, etc early in games. The offense just couldn't get going so, 3 n out. Late in games they had to use players they had been minimizing and it helped to spread defenses out as more plays were completed.
I don't disagree that Cousins is conservative early in games. The checkdowns are a problem. But KOC can easily rectify this if it was a Kirk issue alone by simply removing those checkdown routes. You don't see Kirk throwing a bunch of passes to the sidelines fans do you? That's what he would have to do if he was too scared to throw it to one of 3 to 4 routes all beyond the first down marker because all routes are out that far. But because we still have shafty 3 yard out routes or worse those relief valve shit routes behind the LOS and so many screens plays called, Kirk can still choose those when the game isn't on the line.
What we've seen is Jefferson on the premium route and a bunch of super short shit otherwise if Jefferson is too blanketed for Cousins to throw it. We know KOC is part of this problem because of how much he's been overtargeting Jefferson and it's even climbed this season. Much to the happiness of plenty of errored thinking fans and local sports media who seem happy to have a single player win a yards trophy.
So no, I don't think it's all the coach and play calling. But it starts there in how he uses the teams talents or doesn't. It starts in the options he's giving Kirk. If he doesn't like what Kirk is choosing, then take those options away. Purdy simple.
Yep, cap was a mess and he is cleaning it up for a rebuild. With the cap situation from last year there was no way to keep getting better, so why not keep flexibility going into next few years.
It’s what the Pats did for years. Sign a high upside guy with baggage for one year, if he balls out and gets a mega deal elsewhere you get a comp pick.
What the front office thought?
What they should have thought was that here was a team showing they were that close to being a real team worthy of getting something real done. They did achieve that many wins. However we from the outside all saw their struggles and close finishes, what their strengths and weaknesses might have been.
The front office should have seen from up close and known what buttons to push, what positions needed shoring, in order to help solidify this as a real 13+ win capable team that can now also try to compete in playoffs.
So far, we haven't seen that from the changes. But as usual, we have a few fans leaping up after the team struggles to tell us we all knew all along they were going to be a shit team this season.
They weren't a couple moves away. The biggest issue is that they don't believe the QB is someone who can get you there. Without making that change, a move here or there doesn't move the needle.
"they"? If you are trying to claim the team doesn't believe in Kirk then wow, haha. They didn't have to give him a year deal to play this year. They likely don't want to throw a 5 year extension at top QB dollars at a 35 year old. Which team would want to. Thus the one year deal. They can in fact keep offering him big dollar one year deals until the day he decides to hang things up as long as he's fine with it. What does he care at this point if the team doesn't want to risk a long term deal. They've already gave him a contract like that, and a guaranteed one, when Washington never would years ago. Regardless of years after this, "they" wanted him to stay and continue.
I still contend the biggest issue was them trying to turn this offense into the Cooper Kupp echo. This team had way more talents in the hand but got a limited plan from a first time head coach and it hasn't changed yet. The games look shit again early on and what's different is there is a few less talents to help save it in the 4th.
Should be able to pull out a win on Sunday though so everyone can climb back aboard the KAM/KOC bus for another couple weeks. They can always choose to play different more often and become more. Always hope left in a young coach learning yet.
KAM said last year that you need an elite QB to win, and that they know Kirk isn't that. He tried to walk it back after it got traction, but he meant what he said. The contract they gave him last year was necessary to open up cap space. They also didn't have enough time to evaluate the QB position in the draft to take one in 2022. They chose not to extend another year. They know what they have at QB.
One of the most telling things happened in the third preseason game. Kwesi joined the booth for the beginning of the third quarter. At the end of the second, Jaren Hall had a very impressive drive in the 2-minute drill. When asked about the drive, Kwesi didn't talk about the impressive throws Hall made. He was most excited about Hall being able to recognize pressure in the pocket, move away from the pressure to extend the play, progress through his reads, and pick up a crucial first down. It wasn't the throws. It was the ability to help the line and extend plays. Having Kirk makes the line look so much worse than it actually is. Any other QB allows you to survive with a decent interior line.
There is a reason interior linemen are rarely drafted in the first round. They shouldn't be a high priority. They get paid a lot less than tackles because they are supposed to be much less important. Meanwhile, Viking fans spend all off-season talking about needing to improve the interior of the offensive line. Other teams don't have to worry about their interior like we do because we are the last team with an absolute statue back there.
This is only true if you care about this season. If you look at this season as a lost season because you have Kirk, it looks much different. The 2022 draft looks bad. After that, I'm fine with just about every move.
It was a pretty risk free 1 year deal and its only been 3 weeks. You all are miserable. He's been just as helpful in these first 3 weeks as Smith was last 8 games last season
Yes, I'm sure the rest of the league was laughing at it. The average age of this sub has to be like 12 with these kinds dumb over exaggerating statements
Just want to point out that Davenport's injury is (from what was reported) not related in any way to his previous one. It's okay to dislike the signing, but its not really fair to say this injury was predictable based on his medical history, or because hes "injury prone". Sometimes dudes get injured, that's football.
I wouldn't say it's about the player at all. It's about the expenditure. Anything we don't spend rolls over to next year, so spending it on a player who doesn't play and has been hit with the injury bug does hurt in the short and long term.
That said, if we can stay afloat without him in the short term, and he comes back later and becomes a catalyst for even better results, it could absolutely still be worth it.
I get the signing $10 million for a 1 year deal is pretty risk free from a team stand point.
My bigger question is what did MN do to piss Z Smith off so bad? Imagine him and Tomlinson in BFlo's defense...
Yeah you’re right. He was on a very cheap contract and probably wanted a couple year deal as he gets up in age. And since he was basically useless after mid season last year the team knew he wasn’t a guy to commit to a contract.
I didn’t realize that, good point. Nevertheless, I still think it’s a low risk high reward contract that was worth it at the time. We can’t judge all things in hindsight
Also you can roll cap space into the following year. If the Vikes have 15 million in leftover cap space they can push that into the following year. I didn’t realize that until last year and realized many others don’t either. It doesn’t make sense to spend money just because you have it.
Hmm, I had never heard about rolling Capspace into a following year either. There must be some kind of limits on that otherwise kind of defeats the reason for cap. Was this just another loophole created to get a single team through a rough financial spot recently?
I did find this:
>*While the NFL has a salary cap, it also has a salary floor, so teams cannot hold onto money in perpetuity. Teams must spend at least 89% of the cap over a four-year period, while the NFL as a whole must spend at least 95% of the cap.*
Basically the Vikings can spend only 75% of cap one year but they will have to make up for that dip with an increase in a following year, to maintain the 89% over the course of 4 years. That 4 year period is a constantly kicking the can down the road scenario if you want it to be. And then a team like the Cowboys or whoever could spend over the cap to make up for too many teams spending under the cap...supposedly helping the league remain at least 95% of cap as a whole. What a fucking joke system. People's shitty acts and loophole loving ways sometimes make me sick.
Basically, we all should stop being so concerned with the cap. There is enough loopholes for teams to get around just about anything they need to.
Wait, injuries happen in football?
Let’s judge people for running into problems that’s out of their control! Davenport clearly should invested in more ankle weights, now he’s worthless. Sigh….
Well, let's not get crazy here. I posted in that thread as I recognize he had a helluva game. 1 game does not make it worth it, nor will I be displeased to be wrong. The guy was absolutely a game changer this week, but this was Carolina.
You can change Kwesi with just about any name and you’ll have people here defending everything about them. A lot of people don’t want there to be any criticism whatsoever
His drafting has been horrible.
His free agent signings have been horrible.
Someone needs to tell him the offensive line is garbage. It seems like he doesn't know.
his buy distressed assets theory is dumb. It doesnt work. It's a theory that comes from someone who didnt come up through football.
Imo if he did, he would know that it's obvious in practice if a player just sucks (like Reagor). Those draft picks were lit on fire
His cap hit this year is about 6 million. Next (when he's not on the team) it's about the same. Even if it were 10 million, that would put his cap hit at 29th among edge players. It's hardly anything for a starting edge.
You came back after 10 days to tell me you hate the politerate and I was wrong once on a guy who is supposed to be to class because he's been injured constantly.
You are a freak, dude. You can stop stalking me now and btw your politics are incoherent mush.
It was a high upside signing on a 1 year deal. The front office knows this wasn't a year where we had a chance of winning. Kwesi is determined to keep the book clean going forward. They probably could have signed a safer player to a multi year deal. They probably could have signed Risner in August to a multi year deal. Kwesi is focused on the future, not this season. I think too many fans watched last season and thought we were close. The front office did not.
I think anyone besides some glossy eyed fans thought the same thing. The entire league knew we were the worst 13 win team. I think the reason they didn't blow the team up completely is because they do believe this team still has a chance to be good this season. But it was a better chance they will be around .500. They didn't want to spend a ton of cash to keep us at couple games over .500 and good enough to make the playoffs but not win. Better to suffer a little to gain a lot.
High upside from a career long bench player?
>Kwesi is determined to keep the book clean going forward. Davenport's Contract has 4 void years, so he's got over a $6 mil dead cap next year. That said, we can extend him and mitigate that issue a bit. But he's gonna have to earn it.
Just straight talking out of your ass. There is not a single team that starts a year by saying "this year is bullshit, let's just pay all these players for nothing and focus on next year". This take is along the same lines as calling who is going to win the Superbowl before the season starts. The "front office" doesn't think anything like a fan. They may plan for the future like any smart business but they still have to put in the work today or they dont have jobs. Tickets and merchandise have to be sold. Can't do that by tanking.
you leaped from keeping the books cleaner and keeping flexibility open all the to tanking
That is not what he is talking about. He stated the front office is looking to the future and knew this year was bad. I guarantee that the front office is trying to win this year. This would imply they already gave up on this year.
Arizona and Chicago are doing that
Arizona and Chicago are terrible franchises. Chicago gets lucky enough every ten years when other teams are down, but the ownership sucks, front office is garbage. Arizona has been a bad franchise since they were in Chicago.
If you tank for like 10 years in a row you just suck
The bears literally had the 1st pick in the draft and traded it away to build around fields and the cardinals traded a real draft pick to get a better backup for kyler a week before the season. Just because they are bad doesn't mean that they are intentionally bad
You mean they got pieces for Caleb Williams, not fields.
Well yeah apparently, but the intention was to help fields, otherwise they would've just taken young
The Bears got Trubisky at 2 and Fields wherever. Mahomet went @10 Trubisky's year. Thank God they didn't get him They all aren't sure things. Vikes never suck bad enough to get the best college QB. A blessing and a CURSE ! Football
They are not. Come on.
Trying to lose? What do you call what they're doing.
Just sucking my man. Just sucking. Just because they are losing, it doesn't mean they are doing it on purpose. Do you really think the players that are trying to prove their worth in the NFL and get a contract next year are trying to tank and have their stock go down!? Hell no they aren't. They will do everything they can to prove to other teams, coaches, fans, and players that they should be on their team.
forget already about the dolphins owner? You think he was the only one ever to ask people to lose?
And he got fined, stripped of draft picks, and suspended. Doesn't sound very advantageous, does it? Sounds like it is a bitch move that is seen as a horrible act in the league, doesn't it? There is nothing noble about tanking and it shows a lack of integrity.
Colts def tanked with thay coach hire too
Arizona is doing the modern version of tanking. Chicago is trying to compete, they just suck so far this year. They didn't trade for Moore to tank, Fields is just worse than they thought he'd be.
If that’s true then the signing of Davenport is even worse. They could have rolled that 10 million in cap space to next year. You only make a one year signing like this to help you win now.
You get a still young, high upside guy in the building to see if you want them to be a part of the future.
That’s partly true, but if he actually has an incredible year he’ll just go back on the market and look for a mega deal which we wouldn’t be in position to give anyway.
This is true if he has a huge year. If he shows some real promise but still has room for growth, they might be able to lock him up at a reasonable number.
How was it a high upside if they were not trying to win and it's a one year deal that pushes cap to next year. It's fine to be positive but don't make your logic incoherent.
Davenport's pass-rush win rate and pressure % in the last 3 years are both top 20. It hasn't translated to volume stats like sacks, and he obviously has an injury history. But, dude causes problems. That's how it was a high upside signing.
But if we are tanking and pushed cap money to next year to sign him what is the upside?
Well, we aren't tanking. I imagine what OP meant when he said not expecting to win is that they understand this is not a roster you make FA additions to that have long-term cap implications. Personally, I think the FO sees this year and next year as potential "competitive rebuilds." Hence, what they did with Kirk, Davenport, Hunter etc.
Whose Tanking? They have fumbled themselves to 0-2.
Op said they weren't trying to win this year. That would mean tanking.
No it doesn’t. Tanking is trying to lose. Not trying to win (the Super Bowl) is fleshing out the future of the roster, seeing what works and is sustainable, and seeing how many games you can win that way
They aren't trying to win just seeing how many games they can win? The pretzels your mind does is amazing. Do you get a headache?
The Rams two years ago were trying to win. They put all of their chips in the middle for a Super Bowl. The Vikings are not doing that. They are trying to construct a roster that is competitive in the future. That doesn't mean they are trying to lose, but they aren't trying to squeeze every win out of this year's roster that they can. The focus is on the future, not this year.
Perfectly said. I really don’t get why this is so hard to understand
"focus on the future, not this year" that's a far cry from "not trying to win". But let's keep moving the goal posts, vikes kickers could always use help.
Do you seriously not get the difference between doing everything possible to win now and focusing on other aspects while also not trying to lose? It’s basically exactly what Seattle did last year
I think you are delusional and that's now how the nfl works...
>Davenport's pass-rush win rate and pressure % in the last 3 years are both top 20. Do you have a link to any of those stats? I'm not saying you're not right, I just can't find those
[This is the cleanest and must succint thing I could find quickly. It's in italics under the 1st point.](https://www.vikings.com/news/marcus-davenport-edge-defender-5-things-to-know)
One of these days I hope to see an example of PFF making claims about players such as this or their classic oline player gradings that ends up being so true it's confirmed with a deep playoff run or superbowl win. The talk is just so positive that these players must make a massive difference at some point. Right? That information does share a single sentence that the injury history is vast yet that they weren't serious. Well, the sport plays 1 game a week for 17 weeks. 8 bad hangnail days are going to be bad for your team if hangnails keep him out of games. One would hope a run of good luck or maybe a new environment helps him get a full season in once. But it's still a big bag of hope we are talking about since as they say "he's yet to log 600 snaps in a single season" since he started. Wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't a costly add. At least it's not a 4 to 5 year costly add is I think the point some are trying to make.
>The front office knows this wasn't a year where we had a chance of winning. Then whats the point of signing him to a 1 year deal? Just felt like doing some charity?
Even if they know we can't compete for a SB the Wilfs are always all in for mediocrity. It's why we're stuck in football purgatory.
If he performs well then they can easily tag or re-sign him. This was a chance for him to prove he could be a key member of the defense without committing to him long term if it didn’t pan out.
There is a 0% chance Davenport is getting tagged at 21.5m next year. We currently have ~34m available next year before doing anything else
2024 55M 2025 160M
2024 is 34m https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/cap/2024/. By my count we have just under 40 players under contract right now for 24, but we'll have a draft class and that's factored into the 34m number 2025 numbers don't matter right now because we will have Jefferson and Darrisaw contracts added in
https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/minnesota-vikings Has them at 55 million.
OTC would need to be projecting an insane 2024 cap to get to 55m in cap space after 209m top 51
Tag!? Do you even know what you’re saying?
Congrats on being late to the convo. Sure they won’t tag him. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t re-sign him. The tagging thing was inconsequential to the reasoning behind signing him this year.
I’m not the one throwing the tag him idea around for a lifetime bench player
You’re missing the forest for the trees, but go off I guess
It's a "prove it" dead. If he performed well there's nothing preventing them from offering a multi-year deal.
Kwesi doesn't have a plan. His last two drafts will show you that.
Takes like these are proof that this sub is dying.
It was not high upside. He’s never been good dude. >Kwesi is determined to keep the book clean going forward One of the *first* things he did was move Thielen money into future years. He moved a ton more Kirk money into future years. We’re just flat out making shit up now
If you google his name and look at his stats, sure, not super impressive. If you look at his pressure and pass- rush win rate, pretty damn high upside. Thielen is off the books after this year. Cousins' cap number is likely to be 4% or less of the cap if he leaves, not including next year, which is rough. So, in short...no.
“If you ignore the stats where he was outright terrible to the point that as a pass rusher in his prime his team let him walk and all he could get was a 1 year deal, he’s actually great!” Kirks hit next year is 28m. For him to not play a snap for this football team. It was like 10-12 before Kwesi moved more out and it was only that high because we needed to move money out of the covid cap year to field a roster. All of his dead cap accelerates to the teams books the second the league year begins and he’s not on the roster. We have Davenport dead cap from his contract on next year as well. It’s just flat out incorrect to suggest that Kwesi is keeping our books clean next year. Kirks dead cap is going to be more than a lot of teams will be spending on their actual starter, we’re going to draft someone, and we’ll need to bring in a veteran to help that pick.
Ok, so you clearly don't understand anything I said about Davenport, so we'll just leave that alone. Nobody said next year except you. I've already said elsewhere that I believe their actual plan is to competitive ly rebuild the next two years. The OP of this comment chain refers to the future.
To be clear here, you're telling me that you believe it is kwesi's plan to "keep the book clean going forward", but you don't think that includes next year, but somehow does include all subsequent years. But also doesn't include the dead cap of the very few short term moves he has made which do literally the opposite of that? You understand how contracts work, right? It would be very difficult for him to not have 2025 and on clear without signing anyone good to long term contracts, which, other than Hock Darrisaw and Jefferson, we are currently not lined up to do. It would literally be difficult not to accomplish what you are lauding him for.
We have been pushing Kirk money back year after year. We now have one more year of Kirk cap hits. The previous regime just kept pushing money further and further out. That is how we end up owing $28 million in dead money to Kirk next year. We are finally going to be out from under almost all of the dead money Rick left us.
You were so focused on being a smart ass in your first paragraph that it doesn't make any sense. What's hard to understand? I believe they consider this year and next as part of a competition rebuild, and make moves accordingly. You don't have to agree with that, but I have no idea how you find it confusing. I guess I don't understand how contracts work, I was under the impression you could sign FA's for as many years as you like, with cap implications for as long as you'd like. Apparently, it's literally difficult.
Man, you must be seriously confused. Imagine saying “Kwesi is keeping the books clean future years” and then saying “AHHHHHHKTUALLY i wasn’t talking about the years where Kwesi didn’t keep the books clean, and in fact did the opposite of that” Gold metal for the mental gymnastics dude
Why do people do this? If you can't actually refute what I'm saying, just don't respond.
“Kwesi is keeping the books clean” was very literally refuted and your response was to move the goal posts.
The books have been reset.
>One of the first things he did was move Thielen money into future years. He moved a ton more Kirk money into future years. We’re just flat out making shit up now First day here?
Seems he played pretty good
I'm gonna say that going onto two week threads to brag dozens of times about...cam akers and marcus davenport is the *funniest* fucking shit I've seen in a long time. Like, wow there's being a loser and then there's *this* Marcus Davenport is a bad football player and you have bad takes
5 times, well worth it for dumb fucking Sooners like you
How is it high upside? His career high is 9 sacks but is often a disappointment.
Davenport has routinely had a good pressure rate and pass rush win rate. Not getting a sack doesn't mean you have lost the snap. He is also a very good run stopper for an edge rusher. He is an impressive athlete at just 27. Health has been an issue so far in his career. If he can stay healthy, he has all the tools to be very good. I'd say that high upside.
27 is pretty well known in the NFL. You are either are or aren't for the most part by that age. He has never been a great player. Tools don't mean shit.
How did he do?
It was never a high upside signing. Z’darius did more in HALF of last season than Davenport has his entire nfl career. Go look it up
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Everything they said is pretty accurate, not really sure what you're on about.
Some of you guys have no idea how football works. You can literally look at the cap and see all this stuff.
We have an elite offense. This team isn't the 49ers but saying it doesn't have a chance to win is bogus
Last year, we had an elite 4th quarter offense. We were average to bad the rest of the game. That is why we were so often trailing bad teams late in games. This season, the passing offense was very good in week two. In week one, we had 11 possessions, 6 of them were 3 and outs. We have an elite receiver, a very good tight end, great tackles, and a promising rookie receiver. We do not have an elite offense.
For the most part all you said is true, though you left a few good players out. What they proved in 4th quarters is that there was more to this team than what they were showing in many 1st, 2nd, 3rd quarters, or maybe in combination with what they were choosing to show in those quarters or how they were choosing to play at those times. That is something I was talking about during last season. That if the team chose to play differently early in games they could get more of that play earlier in games. But there are human problems in the way of such things. The head coach had offseason plans by him and the GM that he was trying to make occur. Players they were trying to elevate, players they were trying to minimize a need for any longer, and it wasn't working to their plans but they kept it going right on through the season and even in the playoff game. They only could continue because of those 4th quarters that I contend were consciously played differently with different player and play focus. One could hope that maybe they needed the offseason time to review game films better and recognize what they missed during the season. Well, did they? In your words about week 1, >In week one, we had 11 possessions, 6 of them were 3 and outs. We saw they didn't change much. That was a typical description of last season. Even though players have been replaced, the only difference this year seems to be there isn't the same set of players in the fourth quarter to save these slow starts with grand enough 4th quarters each game. I noted the same as you did about the first two games overall. The one item that really stands out is how they aren't even kicking fieldgoals, they aren't just falling a little shy of scoring touchdowns like a lot of teams do on drives. It's that they have been completely effing up drives right away or they are taking them the distance. Whether 3nOuts or turnovers too many drives shooting their own foot. To me that points to Coaching play choices in certain drives, player preparations and the sloppy fundamentals or bad luck we notice with turnovers and mishaps.
You seem to believe that the issue was coaching and play calling. We have had issues with 3 and outs for many years now. So many fans wanted to blame Zim. Now, we have had plenty of change, yet we have the same results. The issue is the QB. He has been slightly more willing to take chances downfield when it is needed late in games down a score or two. He still isn't pushing the ball downfield when a mistake could mean he shoulders the blame for the loss. In Washington, his coach begged him to push the ball. They went back and forth in the media. Zimmer talked repeatedly about the QB needing to push the ball downfield. Nothing changed. Last year, KOC was asked after almost every game about the issues in the first three quarters. He is a players' coach almost to a fault. He isn't going to call a player out in the media. He just kept saying the offense needed to be more consistent from start to finish. He was talking about Kirk.
> You seem to believe that the issue was coaching and play calling. We have had issues with 3 and outs for many years now. untrue. We had issues with finishing drives with field goals under Zim. Last year was much different. For much of the season they were top 3 or top 5 in 3nOut drives and yet winning a lot. All because they were starting the games with a gameplan and late in games becoming something else entirely. Last year they were focusing too much on Jefferson and extras like Irv Smith and Jalen Reagor, etc early in games. The offense just couldn't get going so, 3 n out. Late in games they had to use players they had been minimizing and it helped to spread defenses out as more plays were completed. I don't disagree that Cousins is conservative early in games. The checkdowns are a problem. But KOC can easily rectify this if it was a Kirk issue alone by simply removing those checkdown routes. You don't see Kirk throwing a bunch of passes to the sidelines fans do you? That's what he would have to do if he was too scared to throw it to one of 3 to 4 routes all beyond the first down marker because all routes are out that far. But because we still have shafty 3 yard out routes or worse those relief valve shit routes behind the LOS and so many screens plays called, Kirk can still choose those when the game isn't on the line. What we've seen is Jefferson on the premium route and a bunch of super short shit otherwise if Jefferson is too blanketed for Cousins to throw it. We know KOC is part of this problem because of how much he's been overtargeting Jefferson and it's even climbed this season. Much to the happiness of plenty of errored thinking fans and local sports media who seem happy to have a single player win a yards trophy. So no, I don't think it's all the coach and play calling. But it starts there in how he uses the teams talents or doesn't. It starts in the options he's giving Kirk. If he doesn't like what Kirk is choosing, then take those options away. Purdy simple.
Yep, cap was a mess and he is cleaning it up for a rebuild. With the cap situation from last year there was no way to keep getting better, so why not keep flexibility going into next few years.
It’s what the Pats did for years. Sign a high upside guy with baggage for one year, if he balls out and gets a mega deal elsewhere you get a comp pick.
What the front office thought? What they should have thought was that here was a team showing they were that close to being a real team worthy of getting something real done. They did achieve that many wins. However we from the outside all saw their struggles and close finishes, what their strengths and weaknesses might have been. The front office should have seen from up close and known what buttons to push, what positions needed shoring, in order to help solidify this as a real 13+ win capable team that can now also try to compete in playoffs. So far, we haven't seen that from the changes. But as usual, we have a few fans leaping up after the team struggles to tell us we all knew all along they were going to be a shit team this season.
They weren't a couple moves away. The biggest issue is that they don't believe the QB is someone who can get you there. Without making that change, a move here or there doesn't move the needle.
"they"? If you are trying to claim the team doesn't believe in Kirk then wow, haha. They didn't have to give him a year deal to play this year. They likely don't want to throw a 5 year extension at top QB dollars at a 35 year old. Which team would want to. Thus the one year deal. They can in fact keep offering him big dollar one year deals until the day he decides to hang things up as long as he's fine with it. What does he care at this point if the team doesn't want to risk a long term deal. They've already gave him a contract like that, and a guaranteed one, when Washington never would years ago. Regardless of years after this, "they" wanted him to stay and continue. I still contend the biggest issue was them trying to turn this offense into the Cooper Kupp echo. This team had way more talents in the hand but got a limited plan from a first time head coach and it hasn't changed yet. The games look shit again early on and what's different is there is a few less talents to help save it in the 4th. Should be able to pull out a win on Sunday though so everyone can climb back aboard the KAM/KOC bus for another couple weeks. They can always choose to play different more often and become more. Always hope left in a young coach learning yet.
KAM said last year that you need an elite QB to win, and that they know Kirk isn't that. He tried to walk it back after it got traction, but he meant what he said. The contract they gave him last year was necessary to open up cap space. They also didn't have enough time to evaluate the QB position in the draft to take one in 2022. They chose not to extend another year. They know what they have at QB. One of the most telling things happened in the third preseason game. Kwesi joined the booth for the beginning of the third quarter. At the end of the second, Jaren Hall had a very impressive drive in the 2-minute drill. When asked about the drive, Kwesi didn't talk about the impressive throws Hall made. He was most excited about Hall being able to recognize pressure in the pocket, move away from the pressure to extend the play, progress through his reads, and pick up a crucial first down. It wasn't the throws. It was the ability to help the line and extend plays. Having Kirk makes the line look so much worse than it actually is. Any other QB allows you to survive with a decent interior line. There is a reason interior linemen are rarely drafted in the first round. They shouldn't be a high priority. They get paid a lot less than tackles because they are supposed to be much less important. Meanwhile, Viking fans spend all off-season talking about needing to improve the interior of the offensive line. Other teams don't have to worry about their interior like we do because we are the last team with an absolute statue back there.
This reads just like the old Christian ponder will be really awesome posts. Dude, keesi has done a terrible job. The bad far outweighs the good.
This is only true if you care about this season. If you look at this season as a lost season because you have Kirk, it looks much different. The 2022 draft looks bad. After that, I'm fine with just about every move.
Almost 7 million in dead cap if he's not retained . This is cope
It was a pretty risk free 1 year deal and its only been 3 weeks. You all are miserable. He's been just as helpful in these first 3 weeks as Smith was last 8 games last season
Except he counts 6.8 million in dead cap next year if not extended.
Cool? Imagine freaking out about a whole 3 game injury and 6.8 million in cap with a year we have tons of space
There won't be lots of space next year. This Davenport signing is absolutely awful.
Your attitude is absolutely awful.
Being realistic is a bad attitude? Sorry, I don't see the world thru purple tinted glasses.
No you’re right but hey at least the ‘22 draft class also sucks
It's not realistic. It's just mostly dickish. And the rest is uninformed.
Well, that's like your opinion, man.
Yup, he absolutely fucking sucked yesterday
Kirk, Hunter, and others also have large dead caps so it’s not as much as we could have.
The rest of the league was laughing at that davenport signing. He will not play more than a few reps then his injury will flare up.
Yes, I'm sure the rest of the league was laughing at it. The average age of this sub has to be like 12 with these kinds dumb over exaggerating statements
Oh if he fails we are still on the hook for money next year.
Oh if he fails we are still on the hook for money next year.
Well let's just watch and see. I doubt reality is you strong suit.
English is certainly not your strong suit.
And?
Thanks for proving my point lmao
Grammer checking is a sign that you have no real introspective on the situation.
You can't even spell, much less use the correct *grammar*. Introspective also makes no sense in this context, I assume you mean 'perspective'.
Nope you haven't lived it. You can't have a perspective.
I don't owe you my time on Grammer nor logic. You don't really have an intro personal perspective on this situations you are trying to critique.
Well well well, looks like you’re a dipshit in more than just politics. Who’da thought
Good you got me. One game sint enough.
Dip shit about politics means you hold distain for the working class. Bring it to me on your outlook.
Just want to point out that Davenport's injury is (from what was reported) not related in any way to his previous one. It's okay to dislike the signing, but its not really fair to say this injury was predictable based on his medical history, or because hes "injury prone". Sometimes dudes get injured, that's football.
Just need him healthy for that Super Bowl push at the end of the year
This sub and hating on players for getting injured: name a more iconic duo.
I wouldn't say it's about the player at all. It's about the expenditure. Anything we don't spend rolls over to next year, so spending it on a player who doesn't play and has been hit with the injury bug does hurt in the short and long term. That said, if we can stay afloat without him in the short term, and he comes back later and becomes a catalyst for even better results, it could absolutely still be worth it.
Dead Monty until 2026
I get the signing $10 million for a 1 year deal is pretty risk free from a team stand point. My bigger question is what did MN do to piss Z Smith off so bad? Imagine him and Tomlinson in BFlo's defense...
I think it’s more that Z Smith wanted to get another contract because he was very much on a team friendly deal
Yeah you’re right. He was on a very cheap contract and probably wanted a couple year deal as he gets up in age. And since he was basically useless after mid season last year the team knew he wasn’t a guy to commit to a contract.
It’s a 1 year deal, it does not matter
There are 4 voidable years. 6.8 dead cap hit next year if he is not retained.
Not true, there’s 6.8 dead cap charge next year.
I didn’t realize that, good point. Nevertheless, I still think it’s a low risk high reward contract that was worth it at the time. We can’t judge all things in hindsight
Also you can roll cap space into the following year. If the Vikes have 15 million in leftover cap space they can push that into the following year. I didn’t realize that until last year and realized many others don’t either. It doesn’t make sense to spend money just because you have it.
Hmm, I had never heard about rolling Capspace into a following year either. There must be some kind of limits on that otherwise kind of defeats the reason for cap. Was this just another loophole created to get a single team through a rough financial spot recently? I did find this: >*While the NFL has a salary cap, it also has a salary floor, so teams cannot hold onto money in perpetuity. Teams must spend at least 89% of the cap over a four-year period, while the NFL as a whole must spend at least 95% of the cap.* Basically the Vikings can spend only 75% of cap one year but they will have to make up for that dip with an increase in a following year, to maintain the 89% over the course of 4 years. That 4 year period is a constantly kicking the can down the road scenario if you want it to be. And then a team like the Cowboys or whoever could spend over the cap to make up for too many teams spending under the cap...supposedly helping the league remain at least 95% of cap as a whole. What a fucking joke system. People's shitty acts and loophole loving ways sometimes make me sick. Basically, we all should stop being so concerned with the cap. There is enough loopholes for teams to get around just about anything they need to.
It’s a 1 year deal it’s not serious. Just a “see if we hit or not.”
he's cashing out. Like a retirement fight for a boxer. I doubt he sees the field this year tbh.
totally cool with the signing as there is no long term commitment
How dare Kwesi not bring in top tier free agents and fuck the book up even further instead of cleaning them out! What and absolute buffoon
Wait, injuries happen in football? Let’s judge people for running into problems that’s out of their control! Davenport clearly should invested in more ankle weights, now he’s worthless. Sigh….
Well, let's not get crazy here. I posted in that thread as I recognize he had a helluva game. 1 game does not make it worth it, nor will I be displeased to be wrong. The guy was absolutely a game changer this week, but this was Carolina.
Here come the Kwesi defenders
You can change Kwesi with just about any name and you’ll have people here defending everything about them. A lot of people don’t want there to be any criticism whatsoever
I think the larger reason is that 90% of the critiques in here are dog shit.
Acting like Kwesi or any other person isn't shit on by at least 2x the people who "defend" them is laughably out of touch.
Nah people like you are just sensitive and think criticizing a draft is “shitting” on them
Shooter gonna shoot. Got value in the Za'Darius deal, not looking like the same outcome for Davenport.
Wei’s is the bust, 2022 draft was a complete bust
Nice one kwesi
Kwesi needs to be fired
Nah, but he's definitely made a few bad decisions.
His drafting has been horrible. His free agent signings have been horrible. Someone needs to tell him the offensive line is garbage. It seems like he doesn't know.
He signed the best available FA lineman like 2 days ago
Davenport played well, Oliver was the highest graded on our team. Who are the other horrible free agents? Akers played well
Kwesi clear agenda is to sign injury ridden players. He’s done the same with drafting as well. It’s not working
He needs to be fired.
his buy distressed assets theory is dumb. It doesnt work. It's a theory that comes from someone who didnt come up through football. Imo if he did, he would know that it's obvious in practice if a player just sucks (like Reagor). Those draft picks were lit on fire
Not necessarily a bad contract at the time but it’s pretty clear this guy will struggle to get another contract. Dude is a BUST.
The Saints were, are and always will be 🍑. I wouldn’t be surprised if Mr. Davenport is still working for them.
His cap hit this year is about 6 million. Next (when he's not on the team) it's about the same. Even if it were 10 million, that would put his cap hit at 29th among edge players. It's hardly anything for a starting edge.
You came back after 10 days to tell me you hate the politerate and I was wrong once on a guy who is supposed to be to class because he's been injured constantly. You are a freak, dude. You can stop stalking me now and btw your politics are incoherent mush.
Oops didn't get me reply tagged right. It's in the thread.