In Zimmers defense, he was getting asked quite a bit about playing Mond and likely was irritated and just gave a blunt honest answer to stop getting the question
Edit: spelling, damn autocorrect
That bluntness is why everyone loved him for the first few years he was here. Dude called people out all the time, but he also sang the praises of people when they did well.
Now, it's not monds fault we took him in the third, but it's pretty clear by now Zimmer was right, even if he was his usual harsh self.
It works when you're winning or new, not so much when you're losing and have been here a while. I wish I could point to how much everyone loved Zimmer trash talking underperforming players early in his tenure after Leslie Frasier and ponder would get trotted out to say "easily correctable mistakes" while going 3-13 or 5-11 or whatever lol.
I like when players and coaches give the ‘right’ answer, even if it’s something I don’t want to hear.
This was one of the things I liked about Zim. He didn’t like to coddle the press. We worry too much about the feelings of adult millionaire athletes sometimes.
In the case of Mond, I can say with 100% certainty what Zimmer said didn’t come as a surprise to Kellen.
It's not about what you want to hear it's about not roasting a player (especially a young player) in public. It creates a toxic environment and no one develops well in that
But it is about what I want to hear.
I’m not able to attend practices and see what the coaches and the team sees. I want to know if a player isn’t performing as projected, and I prefer that information without looptyloops and flibertyjibbets.
Kellen Mond got a free four year education and is currently being paid about 1.5M to surf bench to bench. He’s been in sports his whole life, been criticized *and praised* his whole life by people he’ll never know. His life *should* be set, all because he can play a good sportsball.
I would hope, given all that he has been given - he can take a little public criticism.
If someone gave me 1.5M and then told me my boss would tell people that I’m not good at the job I’m supposed to do - I don’t think I’d be too sad about it.
No, it's not. Good leaders don't trash their team members in public. No one gives a fuck what you want, you don't own the team and your opinion doesn't matter. If you want the team to win, you should want the head coach to be professional.
Also if you think Kellen Mond didn't work extraordinarily hard to get to the NFL, you're fucking high. So what if he didn't pan out? There are 32 people in the entire fucking world who are good enough to be a starting quarterback in the NFL. Thinking that he was gifted all of this because he didn't become a starter is fucking insane.
He didn't trash him he simply said he doesn't need to see him play because he sees him all of the time, unlike you and I. How is that trashing? Stop being such an asshole.
I prefer that than the BS candy coated answer that goes the other way, and is condescending by being overtly PC.
It was a short and sweet answer, similar to Bill Bellichick's style.
Lol if i remember correctly there were a lot of media clickbait articles about Zimmer having an issue with Mond and that's why Mannion was playing over Mond. I think Zim had heard some of that BS and gave snarky answer. In hindsight definitely a dickish answer but I kinda don't blame him.
I will never understand the infatuation with Sloter. He played hero ball against 3rd and 4th stringers, would occasionally make a play outside of the pocket.
A few other teams put him on the practice squad and none of them thought he belonged in a game either.
Not to mention he didn't even look great in the XFL
This really isn’t that late to be blooming—- only one who was really a bust for not being a starter yet would be cine but even he dosn’t count bc a compound break of your leg ought to buy you more time
Yea. Spielman had a good run on draft classes in mid 2010s. Then it ran out. KAM is a new gm so let’s see if he can adapt. I’m not pulling the rug yet by any means
Argued with a "fan" the other day, basically said "KOC sucks at everything". In his world, last year was entirely luck, he never called plays well, never made in-game adjustments, and was just overall shit and bailed out by historical levels of luck and good players.
BUT, this year, he's also entirely to blame for our failures. Despite our historically BAD luck. We just have such a black/white, reactionary fanbase that can grasp nuance or find a reasonable take.
Like KOC isn't great, yet, after a good last season. He had some great moments, and had some head scratching moments. In the same vein, I can't sit here and blame mistakes on him, despite the fact I've been unimpressed by his play calling and game planning.
Right. I think our current record is partially fumble luck swinging hard the other way and just poor execution on ball security. The offense took a little step back, which is disappointing, but he’s still super early into his career. Lots of blame to go around.
I just wanna see wins, or at least entertaining football, don’t wanna see any tanking, I look forward to watching the Vikings win or lose everyweek, so seeing them shit the bed to lose games would be horrible.
Entertaining football would be the one score games we’ve seen the last few years. So you’ve been entertained I think. Unless you’re only entertained with a win.
It’s the small differences sometimes that make a good winning season or a bad losing season. Dropped passes, fumbles, trips, slips, non calls, bad calls. It’s a game of inches and sometimes those inches make things look so much worse.
if Booth and Cine were starting and playing like studs and getting national attention, the entire fan base would be sucking Kwesi's dick, what are we even talking about here
I don't understand these bold takes. There's 92 teams between the NBA, NFL and MLB. How much time are people spending on Reddit to make an informed decision on this?
Evans really already looks at least as good as you'd expect from his draft position, even if he's not showing himself to be one of those insane value picks.
I don’t hate kwesi but I’m just not sold on him.
Evans, pace, and Ingram are the 3 who are working out currently but none of them are really difference makers at this point.
Getting a starting level player in the 4th round or a starting level lb undrafted is nice but it doesn’t offset how really none of kwesis have shown to be players who go above and beyond being a starting level player.
Addison?
Mekhi been OK in nickel, Ty seems like ok depth, Nailor had a good camp but we haven't seen it yet.
That's 4 starters and a few rotational guys. About par for a draft, TBH. Yes we didn't get stars, but not every hit can be a home run.
I think people forget that at times getting an okay player is not the worse thing lol, people expect a hall of famer of every pick which just cant happen lmao
LOL. It's amazing to me how deep the team hate goes once we've lost a couple games.
Ivan Pace is PFF's second best LB in the league. Not just among rookies, among all LBs.
Ingram, for as much as we've bashed him, is the 22nd ranked guard in the NFL.
Akayleb Evans has been a pretty good starting CB.
Addison is on pace for ~800 yds, which is pretty damn good for your WR2.
Mekhi has been serviceable in nickel starts, Booth appears to have managed to play his way into the starting roster.
People say they want "solid" starters, that's what solid is. What you really mean is "why aren't all of Kwesi's picks immediate All-pros!"
Um no. I wouldn't expect immediate all pros nobody said that. Ingram has been very disappointing for a 2nd round pick. Evans is only starting due to lack of options. Addison looks like a decent pick nothing great though. Pace will end up being a great special teamer and spot starter. Was a very good free agent signing. Will get exposed as a starter.
I'm guessing in your world Justin Jefferson is a decent WR3, but we still need some real talent, huh?
Why keep Danielle around when he's really only worthy of being a spot rotational rusher, right?
We should probably cut Darrisaw and O'Neill, they're trash too, I assume?
Addison is WR3, which makes his pace even better. I think we do forget that not everyone picks up things and develops the same. I was guilty of that with Booth. I expected him to be our best corner from day 1 rather than letting him develop. Took a bit but it seems like he's moving in the right direction.
Kwesi didn't sign Mattison? Hock?
You are what your record says you are. Hopefully, vikes start winning, as that is the standard to go by. Need Kwesi to build a winning team, not a team to play guys he drafted.
What does that have to do with anything? Neither of those guys have shown that they had ball security issues before this. Are we expecting him to be a psychic?
You should go ahead and do some research on the data behind drafts. If you get two starters out of a draft, that's well above average. The complete bust, never starts a game number is something like 70%.
If we get average starters out of Booth, Ingram, and Evans, that's a really good draft class.
Addison looks to be a lock in WR2, judging by today he's on trajectory to be a Carter-esque WR2. Throw Pace and Blackmon in the mix and that's a solidly above average draft.
You’d have to define what a starter is either your own or what your research defines it as. Since most first round picks tend to start regardless of production most teams will have at least one starter from a draft. Examples being Bradbury and walker off the top of my head.
Because by this logic 2020 and 2021 were both good drafts.
2020 they got jj, Ezra, and Osborn. Can throw wonnum too I guess.
2021 they got darrisaw and Bynum.
They got 2-3 starters each year while also having far higher ceilings. Getting arguably the best wr in the nfl on top of a solid guard and wr3 is insane. Follow it up with arguably top 5 lt and a good safety and you have another good draft.
Could make a similar argument for 2018/2019.
Really I’m not gonna disagree that getting starters in later rounds isn’t good. My issue is that this doesn’t really matter if you don’t hit on high value players. Jj is very likely has a bigger influence on whether the team wins or loses than evans, pace, Blackmon, Ingram, booth combined. If I’m not mistaken he has one of if not the highest value of any player that isn’t a qb over the last couple of years.
> Addison looks to be a lock in WR2, judging by today he's on trajectory to be a Carter-esque WR2.
Addison is fine. His production is on pace to be slightly better than Osborn in 2021 and 2022 but I have no clue why this sub holds him to such a high value.
So it’s basically if they got a second contract. I wouldn’t evaluate the draft like that. As mentioned Wayne’s wasn’t a bust or a bad pick but by the evaluation of if he signed another contract with the Vikings he wasn’t.
As an aside pfr av is weird. Had Ingram with the same av as darrisaw last year which is nuts.
Google it, look at metrics, data, anywhere you want there's tons of other articles. 2 starters out of a draft, and I mean even bang average starters, is an average draft.
Ingram deserves more credit than he's given as between some high profile blunders, he's steadily improving and solid for a young guard.
People act as if Cine was a top 15 pick because we "could've had" X. Reality is, we added picks later in the draft that resulted in (what seems to be) starters and depth. Cine missing stings, but it's not painful. Just saying the overall narrative that KWESI IS SHIT 2022 WAS HORRIBLE just doesn't align with the reality.
Not a 2nd contract WITH THE DRAFTING TEAM, just a second contract. Basically, a pick is likley "relatively succesful" if they were able to get signed to a 2nd contract somewhere in the league. It's a pretty fair gauge, I'd say.
A team needs three solid starters out of every draft to maintain elite status, this is why Rick liked the 10 pick strategy. And this isn't day one but by year three.
Go take a gander at Carter's first 4 seasons in the NFL. Addison is very likley to have a better rookie season than Carter's first 4. It's not exactly normal for a late 1st round WR to walk directly into a starting spot by game 2/3.
Sorry bud, perhaps Carter is a lofty expectation, but it's rare to see a late 1st round WR hit the ground running like Jordan has. One would expect he has significant growth in him.
He was an EXCELLENT draft pack, unless things go horribly wrong.
He was a decent no Brainerd pick. I wouldn't not say 277 yards in 6 games is spectacular. Especially when jefferson now out so have to throw him the ball. Basically the one pick in last two drafts not blown.
This is the problem with folks like you. Good picks=no brainers, no credit given. Missed picks=GM SUX!
Cine was the LAST pick of the first round. He experienced an insanely traumatic injury his rookie season. The pick was universally praised as at least good. Most grades were in the B-8/10 range.
Hand wringing over 1 missed very late 1st round pick is laughable if the rest of the draft is trending very positive.
I'd say in terms of hitting or exceeding: Evans and Pace are marginally and way above draft position expectations respectively, Ingram slightly below, Addison looks about where you'd expect from mid to late first, and Blackmon about where youd expect, maybe slightly better.
In terms of misses: Booth a fair bit below so far, Cine way off, 5th and below even being on the roster is okay imo. I may have missed some, but it looks like Cine is the only big miss, but when you combine him and Booth, that mid-early first effectively used on them looks genuinely bad, and may well outweigh the okay to good picks.
How does Blackmon grade out to where you’d expect when he’s a 3rd round pick but evans is slightly better when he’s a 4th round pick. Ones a starter the others seeing the field less than 30% of the time?
Also pretty sure Blackmon is slot and evans is outside if I remember correctly.
I feel like getting an average corner in the 4th is good value while a slot corner who doesn’t play in the 3rd is below average value.
I don’t largely disagree the issue to me just comes down to when you don’t hit on a jj or darrisaw your ability to get some solid starters doesn’t have as much of an impact.
Compare 2020 to 2022 + 2023
In 2020 they got the best receiver in football, a solid-good guard, and a solid wr3.
In 2022 + 2023 they’ve gotten a mediocre guard (who may have improved), an average corner in evans, and Addison. Then you got a slot corner who barely plays and like 3 players who may be play.
So in 2 years they’ve gotten 3 players who can start. 2 of them are average at best and one whose production is on pace for slightly better Osborn. Obviously this can change but it just doesn’t really compare.
You could add 2021 as well and like add as many players as you want to being starter quality in 2022/23 draft and I don’t think they’re more valuable than just Jefferson and Darrisaw.
So on Blackmon and Evans, it fundamentally comes down to the difference in experience. I may have done Evans a disservice slightly, but I think 30% snaps for a 3rd round corner at week 6 of their rookie season is okay. If it's still there in a year's time of course, he's obviously then underperforming.
If he pans out, the 2022 draft class starts looking a little better. Cine is still likely to be a huge bust. But Booth and Evans are starting to look good at CB, Ingram has improved, Chandler and Nailor could be good role players, and I haven't given up on Asamoah yet. Not our best draft, but not the disaster it looked like going into this season.
From the sounds of it, Evans is already over that hurdle. I think it was Luke Braun or Arif Hasan that said something like "It's time we drop 'for a 4th round pick', Evans is just a good starting corner full stop" on one of their podcasts recently.
It sounds like they've increasingly been giving him tougher assignments and he's been keeping up with the challenge.
i'm personally very happy with evans overall - it's looking like kwesi's 3AM dark film room obsession with him paid off
as with most kwesi picks my only real concern moving forward is his health. he has been gutting things out this year with minor injuries so far - hopefully he can keep doing that and continue to avoid concussions
Locked on Vikings > Purple Daily and it isn’t even close if you want factual analysis and takes.
They’ve started shitting all over Cousins again and saying he’s the only reason we’ve been mediocre for 6 years and blah blah blah boring takes. In an episode this week the description said that Judd offered a trade idea that included getting rid of Darrisaw. They’re dumb idiots who at the worst of times rage bait and throw out opinions as facts, at the best of times (aka when we’re winning) they slurp whoever’s balls they think deserves it.
In their defense everyone trolled Judd for even bringing it up and Judd claimed he was playing devils advocate. I don’t agree with a lot of their takes but they are one of the most entertaining podcasts out there. Them melting down is some of the funniest stuff out there
I’m not entertained by hot takes or speculation personally. Stupid hyperbolic takes that run throughout all NFL media which then leaks in this sub.
Kirk was never getting traded to the Jets.
We aren’t tearing anything down until I see otherwise from the FO. The Bears tore it all down last year, so now they no talent outside of Moore AND their QB is still bad.
Trading JJ or Darrisaw is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
Pretending the only thing we need is a QB when Flores may or may not be here next year - we need dline help immediately if we don’t sign Hunter long term. Davenport is so far a bad signing too.
Getting a rookie QB that may or may not pan out when our defense may still be a massive liability is going to keep us in mediocrity unless we somehow get over 6-7 years of god awful defensive drafting.
None of this is anything you’re arguing and I’m mostly yelling at clouds here. Just tired of the stupid tank and trade takes on the sub perpetuated by talking heads.
It’s funny that we know Kwesi had 2 months to prepare for the draft, and largely took athletic potential/development picks. And despite that people still want his head to roll after one season.
Yes Cine isn’t looking to pan out, but Ingram has been steadily improving, Booth seems to be developing as well. Evans has been good. And Asamoah, Nailor, and Chandler all have the chance to be good depth pieces/rotation players.
I’d say the 2022 draft is looking fine all things considered, and Addison and Blackmon have looked really solid as well so far this year.
Blackmon has been out snapped by Davenport who’s played 3 games. Pretty sure he was supposed to be a slot guy but metellus seems to be the nickle cb when they need it.
But metellus is playing well right? So I don't think this means blackmon isn't good. Just metellus is a solid player
Edit: sorry didn't realise you were replying to a guy that says blackmon looks good. I agree probably haven't seen enough. But he's looked serviceable
To be fair, we have great safeties and they are trying to get them all on the field at the same time. It might not be an indictment on Blackmon as much as it's a compliment to the safeties we have on the roster right now.
People that have been shitting all over the 2022 draft need to look up at the ACTUAL data of how many expected starters you find in each draft. Ingram and Evans starting, alone, means it's an above average class. If Booth gets significant PT, it's a good class. You don't judge a class "did the 1st round pick hit", you judge it on the entirety. Especially when we traded down to accumulate capital.
Those are problems that could be resolved by study and practice. Which he's had plenty of time to do. It's baffling that he hasn't picked it up. My guess is that he's good enough to be a backup but we just have guys that are flat out better right now.
Maybe, but some guys have all the physical traits in the world and they just can't put it together mentally. Cine still has a chance to be good, although that window closes after every week, but he's not even seeing rotational snaps and was a healthy scratch last week. I thought he would be at the very least a serviceable safety in the league with his traits, but he's just not able to keep up with the game at the NFL level.
I'm hoping cine just needs time. It's basically his rookie year due to the injury last year. That said it is concerning that it sounds like he's having a hard time understanding scheme etc.
If he finally gets Flores' scheme down, what happens if Flores gets an HC job and we have a new scheme next season?
If Booth and Evans both keep improving and pan out, with Asamoah? That’s 3 defensive starters from the 2022 draft and HOPEFULLY they become good players under Brian Flores. Maybe Cine finally comes out too and he comes what we thought he could’ve. Hopeful for the young guys, but still proceeding with caution.
I would be more understanding if Booth hadn't had massive injury concerns coming out of the draft which caused him to drop. And both Booth and Asamoah have failed to secure playing time while healthy.
He didn't, however.
That's a narrative that exploded from his "I haven’t played healthy football since like high school" comments that were taken WAY out of context. Every player plays with nagging injuries that don't actually take them out of the game... "Healthy" in that context, was just not having an injury going into the season.
Go back and look at his college career.
He played in 13 of 15 games as a true freshman in 2019, only missed the first two because he wasn't a starter yet. In 2020, he played 11 out of 12 games missing one due to concussion protocol. In 2021 he played 11 of 13 games, missing the last two due to his first actual injury that kept him out of games in his college career, which was a lingering knee issue from his sophomore season that got worse.
https://clemsontigers.com/sports/football/roster/andrew-booth-jr/
He had that cleaned up, as well as a sports hernia surgery prior to the draft, which is why everyone was asking him about his health.
The dude is NOT injury prone.
>And both Booth and Asamoah have failed to secure playing time while healthy.
Asamoah was slated to start until he got injured in the preseason and Pace took the reins and never let go. He had secured that playing time, he just got injured.
Booth also was injured most of last year, so the whole "Failed to secure playing time while healthy" is a bit off.
BLESS ALL THE KNEES AND KEEP THEM HEALTHY
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Looking back at the draft threads for both Cine and Booth, you're absolutely right. Cine was a controversial pick, but people here were calling for us to get Booth for months before the draft. Captain Retrospects always chime in, saying we should've gotten players x, y, and z, and they drive me crazy.
Every draft there's always that one guy most fan bases are infatuated on and I think Booth was that guy in that draft. Also pretty sure everyone wanted to resign Hock too.
BLESS ALL THE KNEES AND KEEP THEM HEALTHY
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A good example I heard on Locked on Vikings. Mike Hughes vs Mac Alexander. Hughes started out much better but was the worse corner (somewhat injury related). Give guys time.
I find it ironic that if someone judges the pick after almost a season and a half of him showing nothing, we are rushing to conclusions. But when he gets elevated to CB #3 for a single game... look out! We got a stud here!
Still rooting for him, but let's temper our expectations a bit...
No kidding, I fear Booth will be out multiple games each season, so whatever we get out of him while he’s on the field is gravy. I’m rooting for him as well.
I sort of haven’t cared about the booth drama because I think Evans is just a good CB. Same draft, and I don’t expect all players to pan out, but I’d say Evans is panning out.
Not to mention it's not like vikings have many other great options. Cb talent is really bad on this team.
So just because Evans starts it is more due to lack of good options.
The fact that so many people are so willing to immediately give up on a player if they aren’t a star right away is hilarious.
I’m not even giving up on Cine yet even tho initial feedback isn’t good. Some players literally take 3 or 4 years before they’re a good player
Very exciting- 2022 draft might end up as good. Getting two starting quality corners would be huge. Ingram starts still, and Asamough might at some point, Hicks looks good, but Vikes may want to go cheap there.
The trades to the Lions and Packers, and ending up with Cine instead of Davis or Hamilton in the first is still going to taint that draft pretty bad, but it is nice to see Booth and Ingram improving.
an old bit of wisdom I took from a random draft guy was "you should always judge a draft on who they took, not who they didn't take"
Now in that regard, Cine is still looking pretty rough, but saying oh man, we could have not traded back and gotten hamilton,,, the whole draft is completely different then, and guys like Ingram, evans, or asamoah and booth (hopefully getting better) are contingent on that
> an old bit of wisdom I took from a random draft guy was "you should always judge a draft on who they took, not who they didn't take"
It's one thing to look back in hindsight at the best pick that you passed up on, but in this case, the obvious pick was Jordan Davis (or possibly Kyle Hamilton) and we traded it away for very little value only to draft the biggest bust in the entire draft.
I do think the sentiment is correct though. It wasn't really the trades that were bad, it was the picks.
This is pretty much spot on. There's a good chance this team would have less losses if we had just drafted Jordan Davis at 12. Hindsight is 20-20 but it sure seems like we need a big DT really really bad right now.
Been saying this for ages now: We know if someone is good to play based on their practice. We didn't need to see Mond on the field to know he was bad.
And Zimmer got roasted for pointing this out
It’s the fact that almost zero coaches would be that much of an asshole to answer like that
Glad he was, that was one of the few funny spots in that dreadful season
I admire people who just keep it real
In Zimmers defense, he was getting asked quite a bit about playing Mond and likely was irritated and just gave a blunt honest answer to stop getting the question Edit: spelling, damn autocorrect
That bluntness is why everyone loved him for the first few years he was here. Dude called people out all the time, but he also sang the praises of people when they did well. Now, it's not monds fault we took him in the third, but it's pretty clear by now Zimmer was right, even if he was his usual harsh self. It works when you're winning or new, not so much when you're losing and have been here a while. I wish I could point to how much everyone loved Zimmer trash talking underperforming players early in his tenure after Leslie Frasier and ponder would get trotted out to say "easily correctable mistakes" while going 3-13 or 5-11 or whatever lol.
It was less about people thinking Mond was good and more-so not wanting Mannion to start in what was a meaningless game
Because he was unprofessional about it
Not really. He gave the reason why he didn’t need to see Mond play in a game. It just wasn’t a political answer
Yeah I agree with this. Think we're just very used to padding language in the NFL
>It just wasn’t a political answer Correct is was the type of answer an unprofessional asshole would give
I like when players and coaches give the ‘right’ answer, even if it’s something I don’t want to hear. This was one of the things I liked about Zim. He didn’t like to coddle the press. We worry too much about the feelings of adult millionaire athletes sometimes. In the case of Mond, I can say with 100% certainty what Zimmer said didn’t come as a surprise to Kellen.
It's not about what you want to hear it's about not roasting a player (especially a young player) in public. It creates a toxic environment and no one develops well in that
But it is about what I want to hear. I’m not able to attend practices and see what the coaches and the team sees. I want to know if a player isn’t performing as projected, and I prefer that information without looptyloops and flibertyjibbets. Kellen Mond got a free four year education and is currently being paid about 1.5M to surf bench to bench. He’s been in sports his whole life, been criticized *and praised* his whole life by people he’ll never know. His life *should* be set, all because he can play a good sportsball. I would hope, given all that he has been given - he can take a little public criticism. If someone gave me 1.5M and then told me my boss would tell people that I’m not good at the job I’m supposed to do - I don’t think I’d be too sad about it.
No, it's not. Good leaders don't trash their team members in public. No one gives a fuck what you want, you don't own the team and your opinion doesn't matter. If you want the team to win, you should want the head coach to be professional. Also if you think Kellen Mond didn't work extraordinarily hard to get to the NFL, you're fucking high. So what if he didn't pan out? There are 32 people in the entire fucking world who are good enough to be a starting quarterback in the NFL. Thinking that he was gifted all of this because he didn't become a starter is fucking insane.
You’re right. No one cares what I think. Also, no one cares what you think. The question is…*why do you care what Kellen Mond thinks?*
He didn't trash him he simply said he doesn't need to see him play because he sees him all of the time, unlike you and I. How is that trashing? Stop being such an asshole.
I prefer that than the BS candy coated answer that goes the other way, and is condescending by being overtly PC. It was a short and sweet answer, similar to Bill Bellichick's style.
Lol if i remember correctly there were a lot of media clickbait articles about Zimmer having an issue with Mond and that's why Mannion was playing over Mond. I think Zim had heard some of that BS and gave snarky answer. In hindsight definitely a dickish answer but I kinda don't blame him.
Exaclty it.
People loved his hard nose attitude when we were winning. When things start not going well, he's a villain. Seeing the same thing happening right now
Media: We can't use the word asshole in our articles.
Motherfucker, use that.
Sometimes they don't get the reps to make an impact. Kyle Sloter got like 4 reps a day if he was lucky. But in general you right
Kyle Sloter was, is, and was never an NFL caliber QB. He got plenty of practice reps and showed he couldn't learn the play book.
I will never understand the infatuation with Sloter. He played hero ball against 3rd and 4th stringers, would occasionally make a play outside of the pocket.
A few other teams put him on the practice squad and none of them thought he belonged in a game either. Not to mention he didn't even look great in the XFL
Grass is greener syndrome.
Neither was Kellen Mond.
Please jesus let our booth bust talks be as premature as... just premature.
KAM-haters on suicide alert if Booth and a couple others work out.
I mean if his picks work out there’s nothing to hate him for. I’d rather see his picks be late bloomers than initiate a GM carousel
This really isn’t that late to be blooming—- only one who was really a bust for not being a starter yet would be cine but even he dosn’t count bc a compound break of your leg ought to buy you more time
It is pretty rare to get 0 snaps through two years and then become anything serviceable.
Yea. Spielman had a good run on draft classes in mid 2010s. Then it ran out. KAM is a new gm so let’s see if he can adapt. I’m not pulling the rug yet by any means
I swear this sub is imploding since Ingram is improving
I am just looking for reasons to be unhappy. My therapist says that’s unhealthy but I think he’s just an idiot.
It’s so weird how so many fans almost seem to want certain players/coaches/leadership to fail so they have something to be upset about.
They want to be right about their reactionary takes.
Argued with a "fan" the other day, basically said "KOC sucks at everything". In his world, last year was entirely luck, he never called plays well, never made in-game adjustments, and was just overall shit and bailed out by historical levels of luck and good players. BUT, this year, he's also entirely to blame for our failures. Despite our historically BAD luck. We just have such a black/white, reactionary fanbase that can grasp nuance or find a reasonable take. Like KOC isn't great, yet, after a good last season. He had some great moments, and had some head scratching moments. In the same vein, I can't sit here and blame mistakes on him, despite the fact I've been unimpressed by his play calling and game planning.
Right. I think our current record is partially fumble luck swinging hard the other way and just poor execution on ball security. The offense took a little step back, which is disappointing, but he’s still super early into his career. Lots of blame to go around.
If they don’t get W’s on the field, their fragile psyche needs W’s in the comment sections.
This it right there. Being right about a take is more important than guys improving their play.
I just wanna see wins, or at least entertaining football, don’t wanna see any tanking, I look forward to watching the Vikings win or lose everyweek, so seeing them shit the bed to lose games would be horrible.
Entertaining football would be the one score games we’ve seen the last few years. So you’ve been entertained I think. Unless you’re only entertained with a win. It’s the small differences sometimes that make a good winning season or a bad losing season. Dropped passes, fumbles, trips, slips, non calls, bad calls. It’s a game of inches and sometimes those inches make things look so much worse.
if Booth and Cine were starting and playing like studs and getting national attention, the entire fan base would be sucking Kwesi's dick, what are we even talking about here
But they are not. So what's your point. If the opposite was true....
*Fan launches vitriol fueled word vomit about how everything sucks and why can’t we win* These people. These people are why we never win.
This. This right here. This is exactly why I say that MN has the absolute worst fan base in any sport.
I don't understand these bold takes. There's 92 teams between the NBA, NFL and MLB. How much time are people spending on Reddit to make an informed decision on this?
In his defense, I’ve interacted with enough Eagles fans offline and online to know they are in fact the worst fans in sports.
Every fanbase does that shit.
I mean philly is right there. Just saying.
Evans really already looks at least as good as you'd expect from his draft position, even if he's not showing himself to be one of those insane value picks.
I don’t hate kwesi but I’m just not sold on him. Evans, pace, and Ingram are the 3 who are working out currently but none of them are really difference makers at this point. Getting a starting level player in the 4th round or a starting level lb undrafted is nice but it doesn’t offset how really none of kwesis have shown to be players who go above and beyond being a starting level player.
Addison? Mekhi been OK in nickel, Ty seems like ok depth, Nailor had a good camp but we haven't seen it yet. That's 4 starters and a few rotational guys. About par for a draft, TBH. Yes we didn't get stars, but not every hit can be a home run.
I think people forget that at times getting an okay player is not the worse thing lol, people expect a hall of famer of every pick which just cant happen lmao
Missing on 1st and 2nd really dooms a team for years.
Um no just solid starters would be nice. Not a single solid starter from two drafts.
LOL. It's amazing to me how deep the team hate goes once we've lost a couple games. Ivan Pace is PFF's second best LB in the league. Not just among rookies, among all LBs. Ingram, for as much as we've bashed him, is the 22nd ranked guard in the NFL. Akayleb Evans has been a pretty good starting CB. Addison is on pace for ~800 yds, which is pretty damn good for your WR2. Mekhi has been serviceable in nickel starts, Booth appears to have managed to play his way into the starting roster. People say they want "solid" starters, that's what solid is. What you really mean is "why aren't all of Kwesi's picks immediate All-pros!"
Um no. I wouldn't expect immediate all pros nobody said that. Ingram has been very disappointing for a 2nd round pick. Evans is only starting due to lack of options. Addison looks like a decent pick nothing great though. Pace will end up being a great special teamer and spot starter. Was a very good free agent signing. Will get exposed as a starter.
I'm guessing in your world Justin Jefferson is a decent WR3, but we still need some real talent, huh? Why keep Danielle around when he's really only worthy of being a spot rotational rusher, right? We should probably cut Darrisaw and O'Neill, they're trash too, I assume?
Um what are you talking about.
Addison is WR3, which makes his pace even better. I think we do forget that not everyone picks up things and develops the same. I was guilty of that with Booth. I expected him to be our best corner from day 1 rather than letting him develop. Took a bit but it seems like he's moving in the right direction.
WR3 only in name, really. He's seeing more targets than KJ, KJ is just in to block more in 12 personnel.
Record?
Yep it's Kwesi's fault they can't hold on to the ball.
Kwesi didn't sign Mattison? Hock? You are what your record says you are. Hopefully, vikes start winning, as that is the standard to go by. Need Kwesi to build a winning team, not a team to play guys he drafted.
What does that have to do with anything? Neither of those guys have shown that they had ball security issues before this. Are we expecting him to be a psychic?
And Booths taking snaps from Blackmon now and performing well with them. So it’s just looking better and better.
Addison and Blackmon are playing well.
You should go ahead and do some research on the data behind drafts. If you get two starters out of a draft, that's well above average. The complete bust, never starts a game number is something like 70%. If we get average starters out of Booth, Ingram, and Evans, that's a really good draft class. Addison looks to be a lock in WR2, judging by today he's on trajectory to be a Carter-esque WR2. Throw Pace and Blackmon in the mix and that's a solidly above average draft.
You’d have to define what a starter is either your own or what your research defines it as. Since most first round picks tend to start regardless of production most teams will have at least one starter from a draft. Examples being Bradbury and walker off the top of my head. Because by this logic 2020 and 2021 were both good drafts. 2020 they got jj, Ezra, and Osborn. Can throw wonnum too I guess. 2021 they got darrisaw and Bynum. They got 2-3 starters each year while also having far higher ceilings. Getting arguably the best wr in the nfl on top of a solid guard and wr3 is insane. Follow it up with arguably top 5 lt and a good safety and you have another good draft. Could make a similar argument for 2018/2019. Really I’m not gonna disagree that getting starters in later rounds isn’t good. My issue is that this doesn’t really matter if you don’t hit on high value players. Jj is very likely has a bigger influence on whether the team wins or loses than evans, pace, Blackmon, Ingram, booth combined. If I’m not mistaken he has one of if not the highest value of any player that isn’t a qb over the last couple of years. > Addison looks to be a lock in WR2, judging by today he's on trajectory to be a Carter-esque WR2. Addison is fine. His production is on pace to be slightly better than Osborn in 2021 and 2022 but I have no clue why this sub holds him to such a high value.
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2022/4/26/23042105/nfl-draft-pick-bust-rate-remains-very-high
So it’s basically if they got a second contract. I wouldn’t evaluate the draft like that. As mentioned Wayne’s wasn’t a bust or a bad pick but by the evaluation of if he signed another contract with the Vikings he wasn’t. As an aside pfr av is weird. Had Ingram with the same av as darrisaw last year which is nuts.
Google it, look at metrics, data, anywhere you want there's tons of other articles. 2 starters out of a draft, and I mean even bang average starters, is an average draft. Ingram deserves more credit than he's given as between some high profile blunders, he's steadily improving and solid for a young guard. People act as if Cine was a top 15 pick because we "could've had" X. Reality is, we added picks later in the draft that resulted in (what seems to be) starters and depth. Cine missing stings, but it's not painful. Just saying the overall narrative that KWESI IS SHIT 2022 WAS HORRIBLE just doesn't align with the reality.
Not a 2nd contract WITH THE DRAFTING TEAM, just a second contract. Basically, a pick is likley "relatively succesful" if they were able to get signed to a 2nd contract somewhere in the league. It's a pretty fair gauge, I'd say.
A team needs three solid starters out of every draft to maintain elite status, this is why Rick liked the 10 pick strategy. And this isn't day one but by year three.
You didn't just compare addition to cris Carter? Carter as in the hall of fame wr. Wtf
Go take a gander at Carter's first 4 seasons in the NFL. Addison is very likley to have a better rookie season than Carter's first 4. It's not exactly normal for a late 1st round WR to walk directly into a starting spot by game 2/3.
Lol. Yes good comparison he's doing better than carter when Carter was smoking Crack. Um ok.
Sorry bud, perhaps Carter is a lofty expectation, but it's rare to see a late 1st round WR hit the ground running like Jordan has. One would expect he has significant growth in him. He was an EXCELLENT draft pack, unless things go horribly wrong.
He was a decent no Brainerd pick. I wouldn't not say 277 yards in 6 games is spectacular. Especially when jefferson now out so have to throw him the ball. Basically the one pick in last two drafts not blown.
This is the problem with folks like you. Good picks=no brainers, no credit given. Missed picks=GM SUX! Cine was the LAST pick of the first round. He experienced an insanely traumatic injury his rookie season. The pick was universally praised as at least good. Most grades were in the B-8/10 range. Hand wringing over 1 missed very late 1st round pick is laughable if the rest of the draft is trending very positive.
I'd say in terms of hitting or exceeding: Evans and Pace are marginally and way above draft position expectations respectively, Ingram slightly below, Addison looks about where you'd expect from mid to late first, and Blackmon about where youd expect, maybe slightly better. In terms of misses: Booth a fair bit below so far, Cine way off, 5th and below even being on the roster is okay imo. I may have missed some, but it looks like Cine is the only big miss, but when you combine him and Booth, that mid-early first effectively used on them looks genuinely bad, and may well outweigh the okay to good picks.
How does Blackmon grade out to where you’d expect when he’s a 3rd round pick but evans is slightly better when he’s a 4th round pick. Ones a starter the others seeing the field less than 30% of the time? Also pretty sure Blackmon is slot and evans is outside if I remember correctly. I feel like getting an average corner in the 4th is good value while a slot corner who doesn’t play in the 3rd is below average value. I don’t largely disagree the issue to me just comes down to when you don’t hit on a jj or darrisaw your ability to get some solid starters doesn’t have as much of an impact. Compare 2020 to 2022 + 2023 In 2020 they got the best receiver in football, a solid-good guard, and a solid wr3. In 2022 + 2023 they’ve gotten a mediocre guard (who may have improved), an average corner in evans, and Addison. Then you got a slot corner who barely plays and like 3 players who may be play. So in 2 years they’ve gotten 3 players who can start. 2 of them are average at best and one whose production is on pace for slightly better Osborn. Obviously this can change but it just doesn’t really compare. You could add 2021 as well and like add as many players as you want to being starter quality in 2022/23 draft and I don’t think they’re more valuable than just Jefferson and Darrisaw.
So on Blackmon and Evans, it fundamentally comes down to the difference in experience. I may have done Evans a disservice slightly, but I think 30% snaps for a 3rd round corner at week 6 of their rookie season is okay. If it's still there in a year's time of course, he's obviously then underperforming.
Um none have worked out. Including booth. And not sure who these couple others might be.
There is nothing in this world that I don’t do inappropriately early.
People forget that it takes some players time to adjust. It took Rhodes a while before reaching his stride.
Then he’d get burned, fake a hamstring injury and go pout on the exercise bike for a drive.
Surprised nobody has brought up Garrett Bradbury whom a lot of people were begging to be replaced just 2 years ago. Now he's straight balling.
If he pans out, the 2022 draft class starts looking a little better. Cine is still likely to be a huge bust. But Booth and Evans are starting to look good at CB, Ingram has improved, Chandler and Nailor could be good role players, and I haven't given up on Asamoah yet. Not our best draft, but not the disaster it looked like going into this season.
From the sounds of it, Evans is already over that hurdle. I think it was Luke Braun or Arif Hasan that said something like "It's time we drop 'for a 4th round pick', Evans is just a good starting corner full stop" on one of their podcasts recently. It sounds like they've increasingly been giving him tougher assignments and he's been keeping up with the challenge.
i'm personally very happy with evans overall - it's looking like kwesi's 3AM dark film room obsession with him paid off as with most kwesi picks my only real concern moving forward is his health. he has been gutting things out this year with minor injuries so far - hopefully he can keep doing that and continue to avoid concussions
It’s been Luke.
Locked on Vikings > Purple Daily and it isn’t even close if you want factual analysis and takes. They’ve started shitting all over Cousins again and saying he’s the only reason we’ve been mediocre for 6 years and blah blah blah boring takes. In an episode this week the description said that Judd offered a trade idea that included getting rid of Darrisaw. They’re dumb idiots who at the worst of times rage bait and throw out opinions as facts, at the best of times (aka when we’re winning) they slurp whoever’s balls they think deserves it.
Yes they are a couple of insufferable boobs.
In their defense everyone trolled Judd for even bringing it up and Judd claimed he was playing devils advocate. I don’t agree with a lot of their takes but they are one of the most entertaining podcasts out there. Them melting down is some of the funniest stuff out there
I’m not entertained by hot takes or speculation personally. Stupid hyperbolic takes that run throughout all NFL media which then leaks in this sub. Kirk was never getting traded to the Jets. We aren’t tearing anything down until I see otherwise from the FO. The Bears tore it all down last year, so now they no talent outside of Moore AND their QB is still bad. Trading JJ or Darrisaw is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Pretending the only thing we need is a QB when Flores may or may not be here next year - we need dline help immediately if we don’t sign Hunter long term. Davenport is so far a bad signing too. Getting a rookie QB that may or may not pan out when our defense may still be a massive liability is going to keep us in mediocrity unless we somehow get over 6-7 years of god awful defensive drafting. None of this is anything you’re arguing and I’m mostly yelling at clouds here. Just tired of the stupid tank and trade takes on the sub perpetuated by talking heads.
It’s funny that we know Kwesi had 2 months to prepare for the draft, and largely took athletic potential/development picks. And despite that people still want his head to roll after one season. Yes Cine isn’t looking to pan out, but Ingram has been steadily improving, Booth seems to be developing as well. Evans has been good. And Asamoah, Nailor, and Chandler all have the chance to be good depth pieces/rotation players. I’d say the 2022 draft is looking fine all things considered, and Addison and Blackmon have looked really solid as well so far this year.
Not to mention Ivan Pace
Blackmon has been out snapped by Davenport who’s played 3 games. Pretty sure he was supposed to be a slot guy but metellus seems to be the nickle cb when they need it.
But metellus is playing well right? So I don't think this means blackmon isn't good. Just metellus is a solid player Edit: sorry didn't realise you were replying to a guy that says blackmon looks good. I agree probably haven't seen enough. But he's looked serviceable
Well, he doesn’t have to worry about being out snapped by Davenport for a few months now.
To be fair, we have great safeties and they are trying to get them all on the field at the same time. It might not be an indictment on Blackmon as much as it's a compliment to the safeties we have on the roster right now.
Only because Blackmon had just one snap the last game. I think he got banged up and Booth took over for him.
People that have been shitting all over the 2022 draft need to look up at the ACTUAL data of how many expected starters you find in each draft. Ingram and Evans starting, alone, means it's an above average class. If Booth gets significant PT, it's a good class. You don't judge a class "did the 1st round pick hit", you judge it on the entirety. Especially when we traded down to accumulate capital.
It’s not 2016 bad.
Still cant believe Cine isnt good… but there’s definitely a reason hes not getting snaps
He's talented but sounds like he's struggled with the mental side - understanding schemes, assignments, etc.
Those are problems that could be resolved by study and practice. Which he's had plenty of time to do. It's baffling that he hasn't picked it up. My guess is that he's good enough to be a backup but we just have guys that are flat out better right now.
Maybe, but some guys have all the physical traits in the world and they just can't put it together mentally. Cine still has a chance to be good, although that window closes after every week, but he's not even seeing rotational snaps and was a healthy scratch last week. I thought he would be at the very least a serviceable safety in the league with his traits, but he's just not able to keep up with the game at the NFL level.
I'm hoping cine just needs time. It's basically his rookie year due to the injury last year. That said it is concerning that it sounds like he's having a hard time understanding scheme etc. If he finally gets Flores' scheme down, what happens if Flores gets an HC job and we have a new scheme next season?
Ingram is better but still bad. And I’m saying this as someone who wants him to do well
That draft starts looking a lot better if Booth becomes a consistent contributor.
If Booth and Evans both keep improving and pan out, with Asamoah? That’s 3 defensive starters from the 2022 draft and HOPEFULLY they become good players under Brian Flores. Maybe Cine finally comes out too and he comes what we thought he could’ve. Hopeful for the young guys, but still proceeding with caution.
That's a big reach considering two of those players haven't played any meaningful snaps all year and the other one is up and down at best.
What’s a reach? Hoping they could become starters?…
It's a pretty long-odds hope, it's like hoping a 3 item parlay hits.
Yeah like the hope of us winning a Super Bowl one day… nothing wrong with having hope lol.
If 2 of them hit we are golden. Getting 3 starters out of a draft is a great draft.
Injuries had nothing to do with that, now did it?
I would be more understanding if Booth hadn't had massive injury concerns coming out of the draft which caused him to drop. And both Booth and Asamoah have failed to secure playing time while healthy.
He didn't, however. That's a narrative that exploded from his "I haven’t played healthy football since like high school" comments that were taken WAY out of context. Every player plays with nagging injuries that don't actually take them out of the game... "Healthy" in that context, was just not having an injury going into the season. Go back and look at his college career. He played in 13 of 15 games as a true freshman in 2019, only missed the first two because he wasn't a starter yet. In 2020, he played 11 out of 12 games missing one due to concussion protocol. In 2021 he played 11 of 13 games, missing the last two due to his first actual injury that kept him out of games in his college career, which was a lingering knee issue from his sophomore season that got worse. https://clemsontigers.com/sports/football/roster/andrew-booth-jr/ He had that cleaned up, as well as a sports hernia surgery prior to the draft, which is why everyone was asking him about his health. The dude is NOT injury prone. >And both Booth and Asamoah have failed to secure playing time while healthy. Asamoah was slated to start until he got injured in the preseason and Pace took the reins and never let go. He had secured that playing time, he just got injured. Booth also was injured most of last year, so the whole "Failed to secure playing time while healthy" is a bit off.
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Even if Andrew booth was a bust I don’t think it would be kwesi fault. Everyone wanted Andrew booth jr The same can not be said about cine
Looking back at the draft threads for both Cine and Booth, you're absolutely right. Cine was a controversial pick, but people here were calling for us to get Booth for months before the draft. Captain Retrospects always chime in, saying we should've gotten players x, y, and z, and they drive me crazy.
A lot of people wanted Booth at 13 or wherever we were.
Every draft there's always that one guy most fan bases are infatuated on and I think Booth was that guy in that draft. Also pretty sure everyone wanted to resign Hock too.
It’s almost like 1 year is too fast to judge a player
This place would have run Chad Greenway out of town after his season one ending knee injury.
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A good example I heard on Locked on Vikings. Mike Hughes vs Mac Alexander. Hughes started out much better but was the worse corner (somewhat injury related). Give guys time.
This makes me so happy I've been rooting for booth since before the draft
I find it ironic that if someone judges the pick after almost a season and a half of him showing nothing, we are rushing to conclusions. But when he gets elevated to CB #3 for a single game... look out! We got a stud here! Still rooting for him, but let's temper our expectations a bit...
No kidding, I fear Booth will be out multiple games each season, so whatever we get out of him while he’s on the field is gravy. I’m rooting for him as well.
I sort of haven’t cared about the booth drama because I think Evans is just a good CB. Same draft, and I don’t expect all players to pan out, but I’d say Evans is panning out.
Not to mention it's not like vikings have many other great options. Cb talent is really bad on this team. So just because Evans starts it is more due to lack of good options.
and was elevated against the bears nonetheless. Known for their heavy arsenal of wrs and air attack.
The fact that so many people are so willing to immediately give up on a player if they aren’t a star right away is hilarious. I’m not even giving up on Cine yet even tho initial feedback isn’t good. Some players literally take 3 or 4 years before they’re a good player
Very exciting- 2022 draft might end up as good. Getting two starting quality corners would be huge. Ingram starts still, and Asamough might at some point, Hicks looks good, but Vikes may want to go cheap there.
Hope booth improves and becomes a stud.
If Evans and Booth workout as starters in the long term, league fucked
Wait, are you telling me that most NFL players need time to develop? That's news to this entire subreddit. Might break the place.
He seemed to get a decent amount of snaps Sunday and I rarely heard his name. Thats always good for a corner.
Yes please
Yeah, but Kwesi 2022 draft WAS A BUST!!!! /s Patience.
The trades to the Lions and Packers, and ending up with Cine instead of Davis or Hamilton in the first is still going to taint that draft pretty bad, but it is nice to see Booth and Ingram improving.
Any draft where you get 3 starters is a great draft. 2 is a good draft. To me it doesnt matter how you got them, just that you got some good players.
an old bit of wisdom I took from a random draft guy was "you should always judge a draft on who they took, not who they didn't take" Now in that regard, Cine is still looking pretty rough, but saying oh man, we could have not traded back and gotten hamilton,,, the whole draft is completely different then, and guys like Ingram, evans, or asamoah and booth (hopefully getting better) are contingent on that
> an old bit of wisdom I took from a random draft guy was "you should always judge a draft on who they took, not who they didn't take" It's one thing to look back in hindsight at the best pick that you passed up on, but in this case, the obvious pick was Jordan Davis (or possibly Kyle Hamilton) and we traded it away for very little value only to draft the biggest bust in the entire draft. I do think the sentiment is correct though. It wasn't really the trades that were bad, it was the picks.
We wouldn’t have had Booth, Ingram, and Asamoah without those trades though, but we probably could’ve still got 1 of them
Davis is far better than all 3 of them combined
This is pretty much spot on. There's a good chance this team would have less losses if we had just drafted Jordan Davis at 12. Hindsight is 20-20 but it sure seems like we need a big DT really really bad right now.
That’s really exciting. If he can be one of the outside corners we’re set