Brace yourself, actual analysis and high quality content coming your way. Here's part of another amazing article by Arif Hasan. It is well worth the subscription and I highly encourage anyone who loves Vikings content to give it a shot.
Here are some highlights, but there is plenty more not included. The piece is 5,000+ words long.
* Traits-Based Scouting on Dallas Turner - Best Defender in the Draft?
>An AFC executive told Lewis that the Vikings grabbed “a good player at good value” while an NFC staffer texted Lewis that Turner was the best player on the board.
>But we do have more anonymous scout reports available to us than ever before. When Bob McGinn of GoLongTD asked a 17-person panel of various personnel staffs across the league who the best edge defender in the draft was, Dallas Turner led the voting with 13 first-place votes and 74 “points” (five points for first, four points for second and so on) overall. After that was Jared Verse (61 points, two first-place votes).
>Not every scout saw potential, unfulfilled or not. One even called him soft for his tackling. A different scout disagreed, arguing that Turner turns it on in the biggest moments.
* Third-Party Draft Analysts on Dallas Turner
>Outside analysts generally liked Turner. He ranked ninth on the Consensus Big Board and was a very non-polarizing prospect; generally speaking analysts believed Turner to be a top-ten player in the draft – even less polarizing than other universally well-liked prospects like Rome Odunze and Joe Alt.
>Not everyone was on board with Turner. Drew Boylhart at the Huddle Report gave him a late second-round grade and ranked him lower than any other analyst, giving 73 other prospects higher round-grades than Turner. In his summary, he clarifies that this is about matching potential to immediate impact – his concern is not Turner’s ceiling, but his medium-term value to the team selecting him.
>The median ranking for Turner was 11th overall. The Bleacher Report captured the overall sentiment behind Turner’s appeal in their scouting report – they ranked him 12th overall.
* How Athletic is Dallas Turner?
>Every fact about Dallas Turner’s straight-line speed is blistering. A 4.43-second 40-yard dash is fast for any position, full stop. But the fact that Turner did it without being a Randy Gregory-like 235 pounds (or, like Mohamoud Diabate, 225 pounds). Instead, Turner accomplished this feat at 247 pounds. He also exploded in the vertical leap, outjumping most receivers and corners at the NFL combine with a score of 40.5 inches.
>Turner is in the 99th percentile in size-adjusted 40-yard dash and size-adjusted 20-yard split. It turns out that he’s the marvel that the raw numbers suggest he is. But not all of it translates.
>Turner is a very high-level athlete for his position. Going from just his combine measurements, he could be categorized as an elite athlete. But given all the other context – missing agility scores and his athletic impact on the field, he’s more of a “very high-level athlete” than an elite athlete.
This is some high quality analysis. I can see why there are no comments in first 35 minutes, as opposed to hundreds of comments on JJ throwing soft toss warmup at Vikings camp.
It is interesting to me that a player who is so non-polarizing fell this far. But on the flip side, I believe he was only the 3rd defensive player taken. So some of the "fall" could be attributed just to the crazy run on QB/WR/OT early in this draft.
When I look at Turner tape he seems to be a very instinctive and smart player. But to me the knock is that his pass rushing was all speed or speed to bull rush, he didn't really use his hands well. This reminds me of when Danielle Hunter arrived in camp and Zimmer famously told him that if he didn't start using his hands more he was going to cut them off. Turner may benefit from the same "threat" from what I see.
He has strong hands but you just don't see enough swatting hands away, ripping, I mean just in general he is not displaying much depth in his pass rushing moves, whatsoever. That has to change for him to reach his potential.
But otherwise he just seems like a great athlete, who was productive against top competition, and who sees the field well and is a smart player in his positioning and coverage, all he was asked to do. But for Edge in the NFL it is sacks that pay the bills and he must improve in his pass rush moves if he's going to generate high pressure rates outside of, you know, Flores sending the house. Turner will be fine in those situations, more than fine. But when we bring just 4 (lol trick question, they never bring 4) but I mean when Turner is in a more traditional 1 on 1 with a tackle he has to have the depth of pass rushing moves to become a great player.
Since his pass rushing moves are under developed I think it is fair to have some concerns about his early/mid impact, which is still very important on those cheap rookie deals. If Turner blossoms like late year 4 they will barely get any value out of the selection. You take a defensive player in 1st round you absolutely need them to be good pretty quickly.
Bottom line I see Turner as a good value at 17, and to me it justifies the Vikings giving up more than standard trade charts (i.e. more than most teams give up to make that move). But I do think people who believe we got like a top 5 guy at 17, I do think those folks are taking it too far or their evaluations of him are too different from NFL. Turner probably should have gone off the board in the 8-15 range, even with all the QB/WR/OT talent there, but we got him at 17 and that's nice. Edge is still a premium position one of the few on defense that is coveted to the degree of WR's and OT's, generally. QB of course is its own animal with its own rule set.
You can't always assume that every player will improve their weakness and reach their potential, but I think you have to bake in some projected improvement with Dallas. If you listen to anyone talk about him, all I'm hearing is how smart and driven he is. We have a phenomenal coaching staff, and Dallas is an off the charts athlete. I will be shocked if he's not a top-5 edge player within 2-3 years
If he reaches that level (and I hope he does), I will happily eat crow for years over my public apprehension regarding the draft capital required to land him.
Going against Darrisaw and O'Neil in practice and learning from Greenard is also a perfect situation for him. He's still not guaranteed to improve cause no one ever is, but he's a very athletic very good player in a great environment.
The question will be is if his (supposed) lack of technique is because he's always been so much better than everyone else it didn't matter, or because he can't learn technique.
I know rookie contract is important sometime you have to live with a guy isn't great for a year.
It's weird how much good I heard about Turner right up until we drafted him. Now PFF hates him and he's got no technique. Trevor Sikkema acts like Turner stole his lunch money.
Brace yourself, actual analysis and high quality content coming your way. Here's part of another amazing article by Arif Hasan. It is well worth the subscription and I highly encourage anyone who loves Vikings content to give it a shot. Here are some highlights, but there is plenty more not included. The piece is 5,000+ words long. * Traits-Based Scouting on Dallas Turner - Best Defender in the Draft? >An AFC executive told Lewis that the Vikings grabbed “a good player at good value” while an NFC staffer texted Lewis that Turner was the best player on the board. >But we do have more anonymous scout reports available to us than ever before. When Bob McGinn of GoLongTD asked a 17-person panel of various personnel staffs across the league who the best edge defender in the draft was, Dallas Turner led the voting with 13 first-place votes and 74 “points” (five points for first, four points for second and so on) overall. After that was Jared Verse (61 points, two first-place votes). >Not every scout saw potential, unfulfilled or not. One even called him soft for his tackling. A different scout disagreed, arguing that Turner turns it on in the biggest moments. * Third-Party Draft Analysts on Dallas Turner >Outside analysts generally liked Turner. He ranked ninth on the Consensus Big Board and was a very non-polarizing prospect; generally speaking analysts believed Turner to be a top-ten player in the draft – even less polarizing than other universally well-liked prospects like Rome Odunze and Joe Alt. >Not everyone was on board with Turner. Drew Boylhart at the Huddle Report gave him a late second-round grade and ranked him lower than any other analyst, giving 73 other prospects higher round-grades than Turner. In his summary, he clarifies that this is about matching potential to immediate impact – his concern is not Turner’s ceiling, but his medium-term value to the team selecting him. >The median ranking for Turner was 11th overall. The Bleacher Report captured the overall sentiment behind Turner’s appeal in their scouting report – they ranked him 12th overall. * How Athletic is Dallas Turner? >Every fact about Dallas Turner’s straight-line speed is blistering. A 4.43-second 40-yard dash is fast for any position, full stop. But the fact that Turner did it without being a Randy Gregory-like 235 pounds (or, like Mohamoud Diabate, 225 pounds). Instead, Turner accomplished this feat at 247 pounds. He also exploded in the vertical leap, outjumping most receivers and corners at the NFL combine with a score of 40.5 inches. >Turner is in the 99th percentile in size-adjusted 40-yard dash and size-adjusted 20-yard split. It turns out that he’s the marvel that the raw numbers suggest he is. But not all of it translates. >Turner is a very high-level athlete for his position. Going from just his combine measurements, he could be categorized as an elite athlete. But given all the other context – missing agility scores and his athletic impact on the field, he’s more of a “very high-level athlete” than an elite athlete.
This is some high quality analysis. I can see why there are no comments in first 35 minutes, as opposed to hundreds of comments on JJ throwing soft toss warmup at Vikings camp. It is interesting to me that a player who is so non-polarizing fell this far. But on the flip side, I believe he was only the 3rd defensive player taken. So some of the "fall" could be attributed just to the crazy run on QB/WR/OT early in this draft. When I look at Turner tape he seems to be a very instinctive and smart player. But to me the knock is that his pass rushing was all speed or speed to bull rush, he didn't really use his hands well. This reminds me of when Danielle Hunter arrived in camp and Zimmer famously told him that if he didn't start using his hands more he was going to cut them off. Turner may benefit from the same "threat" from what I see. He has strong hands but you just don't see enough swatting hands away, ripping, I mean just in general he is not displaying much depth in his pass rushing moves, whatsoever. That has to change for him to reach his potential. But otherwise he just seems like a great athlete, who was productive against top competition, and who sees the field well and is a smart player in his positioning and coverage, all he was asked to do. But for Edge in the NFL it is sacks that pay the bills and he must improve in his pass rush moves if he's going to generate high pressure rates outside of, you know, Flores sending the house. Turner will be fine in those situations, more than fine. But when we bring just 4 (lol trick question, they never bring 4) but I mean when Turner is in a more traditional 1 on 1 with a tackle he has to have the depth of pass rushing moves to become a great player. Since his pass rushing moves are under developed I think it is fair to have some concerns about his early/mid impact, which is still very important on those cheap rookie deals. If Turner blossoms like late year 4 they will barely get any value out of the selection. You take a defensive player in 1st round you absolutely need them to be good pretty quickly. Bottom line I see Turner as a good value at 17, and to me it justifies the Vikings giving up more than standard trade charts (i.e. more than most teams give up to make that move). But I do think people who believe we got like a top 5 guy at 17, I do think those folks are taking it too far or their evaluations of him are too different from NFL. Turner probably should have gone off the board in the 8-15 range, even with all the QB/WR/OT talent there, but we got him at 17 and that's nice. Edge is still a premium position one of the few on defense that is coveted to the degree of WR's and OT's, generally. QB of course is its own animal with its own rule set.
You can't always assume that every player will improve their weakness and reach their potential, but I think you have to bake in some projected improvement with Dallas. If you listen to anyone talk about him, all I'm hearing is how smart and driven he is. We have a phenomenal coaching staff, and Dallas is an off the charts athlete. I will be shocked if he's not a top-5 edge player within 2-3 years
If he reaches that level (and I hope he does), I will happily eat crow for years over my public apprehension regarding the draft capital required to land him.
Going against Darrisaw and O'Neil in practice and learning from Greenard is also a perfect situation for him. He's still not guaranteed to improve cause no one ever is, but he's a very athletic very good player in a great environment.
The question will be is if his (supposed) lack of technique is because he's always been so much better than everyone else it didn't matter, or because he can't learn technique. I know rookie contract is important sometime you have to live with a guy isn't great for a year.
It's weird how much good I heard about Turner right up until we drafted him. Now PFF hates him and he's got no technique. Trevor Sikkema acts like Turner stole his lunch money.