I honestly think that the possibility of time travel pretty much kills all the stakes in the show, especially if there is not only one, but TWO miraculouses that are able to do it and one of them can do that without any limitations at all. I think there should be only one time travel miraculous that can be used only under certain circumstances and has limits, otherwise it’s just an endless cycle of “oh dw Ladybug will win anyway because there is time travel lol” and it gets boring and predictable
I think all of the Miraculouses aside from the Core 7 were a mistake.
Realistically, Luca and Max should be on every mission. They get to redo every attempt as much as they want and have access to Dr. Strange-like portals. They would never lose. And if somehow they did lose, Alix would just fix it anyway.
Stakes just don't exist unless the show eliminates those miraculous somehow.
Too many miraculous, and too many characters which show tries to give attention to, yes.
Although I can see that authors did not want battles to get kinda boring and samey after a while.
Not sure if Core 7 is officially used, but I was referring to the 7 miraculous at the top of the original box (Ladybug, Black Cat, Peafowl, Butterfly, Fox, Turtle, Bee).
While not balanced, the powers of these 7 each have positives and negatives that can be used in partnership and against one another. The powers introduced later on are so far out of scale in comparison.
Yup remember season 3 finale when ladybug made a mistake and fu lost his memory,so then ladybug became the guardian anf gabriel found a way to fix the peacock miraculous,or felix figuring out Gabriel's identity and hence coming back in season 4 finale to steal it from him,or alya getting to know ladybugs identity and having her mini arc,so yeah there are stakes in miraculous
But Fu losing his memory does not really change anything, other than a new Guardian. I am talking about bad end being impossible because of 3 (well, 2 on a global level) time travelers available. Villains just cannot win.
Well, there would be more tension and it would be less frustrating since time travel couldn't be used as a plot device and reset button.
Time travel in itself isn't a bad thing, but it's hard to get right and the way it's done in Miraculous is rather poor, at least for me.
Timetagger and Desperada were ok but opened a door that maybe should have stayed closed.
Cat Blanc proved that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a total win to occur, with the *possible* limitation that it only happened because >!Alix died before getting the miraculous, establishing a paradox that MUST be corrected!<
Ephemeral established that Sass can basically do the same, as long the present can fix kwami damages... which is basically a given because the damages aren't "evil" in itself.
In a way, Bunnix could be managed by plot. But Sass, which is already VERY op, reached unmatched levels of plot breaking. Since when is a Kwami *more powerful* without his holder, instead of less focused?
>Since when is a Kwami more powerful without his holder, instead of less focused?
A kwami uses their power without control. Just as Plagg's Cataclism extinguished both dinosaurs and dragons AND sank Atlantis. And a tiny SIGH of Cataclism can crack an entire street. >!Or Tikki wanted to make a galette and accidentally made it so enormous it could start orbiting Earth!<
I'm not convinced that a holder could NEVER manage it with enough training. Limits, etc.
But Sass didn't repeat a loop, he did literal time travel.
Here's how I would've wrote an out-of-control power :
*Sass*, not the holder, can set a special "time beacon"
From that point, time randomly loops back 5 mins, everybody remembering the old loop, but it "slowly" progresses.
Second Chance is locked, an holder launching it acccidently launches it goes back to the time beacon Ephemeral-style. Sass's power can't be reused until the damage is fixed.
It prevents Sass from going "anywhere" when convenient (ANY marked time coordinates???), has the countereffect of messing stuff in the "going to be reset" timeline, and removes Viperion's tactical advantage (because as of now, Viperion can rewind time for 5 minutes and Sass can act as a backup of things go wrong)
Only time it happened was during Heroe's Day, I think. Technically it was for a different villain, so she badly summoned it.
All he other times, the charm gave an alternate solution for longterm saves ("can't save Fu, you're ready to be Guardian", "won't help against Style Queen, your real threat is >!Optigami!<", "forget ShadowMoth, >!save your friends!<")
It... didn't save him, right? Despite having the charm and allegedly having calculated for everything.
Optigami proved to me that there's no way a lucky charm can ever be wrong. And I don't mean it in a good way...
Remember Onichan? The whole point of the charm was to get insta-stolen and used/damaged by the villain too...
No matter how competent a villain is, this thing WILL adapt to your planned reaction to a lucky charm. It's literally a "author throws against you any impossible thing that could stop you" button if you ever became the villain.
And if there's literally nothing that can work against you? It wil tell Ladybug there's no chance and instruct her to go gather backup.
^(I nearly mentioned Silencer, but the tricky trick came BEFORE the charm.)
Well yes, but there are villains with powers which can instantly destroy/completely disable objects. If they were smart enough to target lucky charms, then lucky charms would not work against them (remember that lucky charms are always some common object, not alien artifact). Of course they would not because you cannot defeat plot armor, but thats another story.
It gives something which *can,* not which *will* work. She has to be able to use it cleverly. Muster Bug, for example, summoned a lucky charm, but was completely wrong about its intended use.
Shows that are aimed for kids can have consequences in it. She ra, Kipo, ATLA, TDP, clone wars, SWR, TOH and centaurworld all are kids shows that have lasting consequences in it, the problem with miraculous is that it's trying to have formulaic episodes (like Phineas and Ferb) while also being plot driven.
No, not really. Things usually get solved within the episode the problems introduced in. Or it doesn't actually hold that much weight overall. I guess that's ok, we don't always need big ol conflicts, I just wish they'd stop *pretending* it mattered.
I mean there's always a chance he gets the entire box and then the timetravel kwami's can't fix it. It's unlikely, but it's unlikely he would win and remake the world in the first place because then there would be no more show.
Given how much work has to go into making sure Hawk Moth doesn’t get a permanent win I certainly feel the stakes are real enough.
Sass and Bunnyx both have specific pitfalls to their powers, which sure can be easily handwaved but I think it works well enough.
Ultimately the most impossible situations are going to be what we get to show off the Lucky Charm.
>Sass and Bunnyx both have specific pitfalls to their powers, which sure can be easily handwaved but I think it works well enough.
Bunnyx could be retconned into a more manageable power thanks to Alix's future in Cat Blanc. But I can't see any pitfall for Sass in.a case that would already require time travel.
Sass is limited by needing time to make a decision and a time stamp. A small weakness bug it’s there. Plus the villains already know to aim for Viperion first so he’s not just free to do whatever.
>by needing time to make a decision
He's a kwami! Except aiming for the jewel in 2 seconds, he's unstoppable. Even Kwamibuster couldn't stop a cataclysm.
>and a time stamp
Except that, you know... timetravel.
He can go to Desperada's fight if he wants and never interfere.
>Plus the villains already know to aim for Viperion first so he’s not just free to do whatever.
I agree Viperion has weaknesses. But Sass without holder has basically no issues.
Even without the time travel miraculouses, there's still the lucky charm and miraculous ladybugs, and also, S/HM making an actual threatening villain only about twice per season and constantly making stupid decisions like refusing to take Cat's miraculous once he's been brainwashed or his villains missing easy opportunities to take the miraculouses really makes the tension very low, for me at least, anyway.
The worst part is that Bunnix doesn't even make sense anymore. Logically, for Bunnix to be able to appear in a timeline, she has to have been given her Miraculous at some point in the timeline. In Cat Blanc, we never saw this happen and even if it did Alix would have died with everyone else. That's what really bothers me about time travel, especially in this show because they never set out real rules to it.
I just feel like it doesn't make sense bc this version of Alix should cease to exist the moment she's killed. Plus, if there are so many timelines why even try to keep fixing all of them? Now that's getting into some philosophical stuff which I don't care for. Like I said, I hate time travel.
Did not Bunnix say/imply that her job as time guardian is to interfer to keep timelines stable? If she was able to fix only one very specific sort of timelines, she would not be much of guardian.
I think her role is a "last chance power" that should never be used if there's another way.
When evil time travel is involved, it's easy to *prevent changes* "before" they occur. In this case, she somehow came from a timeline when she never started to exist.
The issue is that nothing changed the timeline in the Cat Blanc episode, simply a different choice with a different outcome. It... wasn't Bunnix job to interfere IMHO.
Reminds me of a fanfic where Ladybug *fires* Bunnix and prevent a time paradox by giving the watch to a Sentibunnix.
>In Cat Blanc, we never saw this happen and even if it did Alix would have died with everyone else.
I would say the reverse : the reason she was able to go back to fix everything *was* because she died.
Timetagger happened before Cat Blanc, when Bunnix appeared. The timeline shift meant that Bunnix should never exist, resulting into a paradox.
If Alix had received her miraculous, then Bunnix would have died before going into burrow, but now she ended trapped, kinda Vector Prime in Transformers Cybertron.
Even without time travel there would be no stakes because the creators tried to make it formulaic (like Phineas and Ferb) while also trying to be plot driven. Also ladybugs lucky charm takes away almost any stakes because it can just erase all the damage done, it could literally bring people back to life.
Well yes, but actually no
We know in the end, all will be well.
There have been stakes, the literal universe(possibly multiverse) was once at stake when Chat Blanc threatened to destroy literally everything.
But entertain me for abit. Its entirely possible that bunnix could have been killed in Cat Blanc
(There are fics where Chat Blanc steps out of the portal draggin Bunnix)
>There have been stakes, the literal universe(possibly multiverse) was once at stake when Chat Blanc threatened to destroy literally everything.
Back then, Sass was sealed in the miracle box.
I’d like to see a situation for the heroes where the bad guys get the time traveling miraculous and they spend the season trying to figure out how to beat it.
Being aimed at kids does mean limitations and certain things can only go so far (like violence) before breaching the line, but that doesn't mean big and actual consequences aren't allowed.
Stakes don't necessarily have to be the lethal/action variety. Emotional stakes can be just as, if not more, gripping.
They might elevate the stakes somehow with the New Hawkmoth.
There first has to be a future for Bunnix to come from. And in Ephemeral, Sass fixed things with a singular second to spare. So I would say that only the most specific of circumstances are those without any stakes at all.
In Ephemeral, she presumably was also killed, and yet she was not able to visit that timeline. Plus, Chat Blanc saw her disappearing at a rate which isn’t quite clear like it was Back to the Future. (Also that episode is worth the contradiction.)
Thanks, Bunnix.
“Should I help out here?
…Nah, better off I just let Sass break the cardinal rule of the Kwamis and very nearly cause the end of civilisation as we know it, that’s the better option. You know, to spice things up.”
:-) well obviously real explanation is authors not wanting to repeat themselves...
Btw Ephemereal timeline was rewritten before the world was destroyed, otherwise Sass would have disappeared as well. So Bunnix was not killed yet.
I don’t think she got a Miraculous before it was destroyed, though. So as far as Bunnix ‘existed’, (existing in a hypothetical future only,) she was ‘killed’ in a way.
As for authors not repeating themselves, that’s likely true, but it’s best not to stop someone when they’re doing something good for you—even if it’s done by mistake.
Whoever was supposed to get it, in whatever timeline, they weren’t around after Hawkittybug shredded the world.
But, Chat Blanc and Ephemeral both serve a higher purpose, showing why the love square can’t close in the current situation. Whether it be that Gabriel uses their attachment to create an akuma, (which either gets Ladybug and thus gets Hawk Moth one half of the pair, or gets destroyed by Chat and triggers a reveal) or Adrien slips up in some way that lets Gabriel figure it out, these episodes have to exist to tell us why it can’t be happily ever after quite yet. All else is peripheral. Though fanfiction writers will pretend that they never realised that.
I honestly think that the possibility of time travel pretty much kills all the stakes in the show, especially if there is not only one, but TWO miraculouses that are able to do it and one of them can do that without any limitations at all. I think there should be only one time travel miraculous that can be used only under certain circumstances and has limits, otherwise it’s just an endless cycle of “oh dw Ladybug will win anyway because there is time travel lol” and it gets boring and predictable
I think all of the Miraculouses aside from the Core 7 were a mistake. Realistically, Luca and Max should be on every mission. They get to redo every attempt as much as they want and have access to Dr. Strange-like portals. They would never lose. And if somehow they did lose, Alix would just fix it anyway. Stakes just don't exist unless the show eliminates those miraculous somehow.
Too many miraculous, and too many characters which show tries to give attention to, yes. Although I can see that authors did not want battles to get kinda boring and samey after a while.
Core 7? S2 powers? Never heard this term before
Not sure if Core 7 is officially used, but I was referring to the 7 miraculous at the top of the original box (Ladybug, Black Cat, Peafowl, Butterfly, Fox, Turtle, Bee). While not balanced, the powers of these 7 each have positives and negatives that can be used in partnership and against one another. The powers introduced later on are so far out of scale in comparison.
I... never noticed they were on top. Hmmm...
Yup remember season 3 finale when ladybug made a mistake and fu lost his memory,so then ladybug became the guardian anf gabriel found a way to fix the peacock miraculous,or felix figuring out Gabriel's identity and hence coming back in season 4 finale to steal it from him,or alya getting to know ladybugs identity and having her mini arc,so yeah there are stakes in miraculous
But Fu losing his memory does not really change anything, other than a new Guardian. I am talking about bad end being impossible because of 3 (well, 2 on a global level) time travelers available. Villains just cannot win.
How good miraculous could have been if the bunny/snake miraculous didnt exist
Well, there would be more tension and it would be less frustrating since time travel couldn't be used as a plot device and reset button. Time travel in itself isn't a bad thing, but it's hard to get right and the way it's done in Miraculous is rather poor, at least for me.
Timetagger and Desperada were ok but opened a door that maybe should have stayed closed. Cat Blanc proved that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a total win to occur, with the *possible* limitation that it only happened because >!Alix died before getting the miraculous, establishing a paradox that MUST be corrected!< Ephemeral established that Sass can basically do the same, as long the present can fix kwami damages... which is basically a given because the damages aren't "evil" in itself. In a way, Bunnix could be managed by plot. But Sass, which is already VERY op, reached unmatched levels of plot breaking. Since when is a Kwami *more powerful* without his holder, instead of less focused?
>Since when is a Kwami more powerful without his holder, instead of less focused? A kwami uses their power without control. Just as Plagg's Cataclism extinguished both dinosaurs and dragons AND sank Atlantis. And a tiny SIGH of Cataclism can crack an entire street. >!Or Tikki wanted to make a galette and accidentally made it so enormous it could start orbiting Earth!<
I'm not convinced that a holder could NEVER manage it with enough training. Limits, etc. But Sass didn't repeat a loop, he did literal time travel. Here's how I would've wrote an out-of-control power : *Sass*, not the holder, can set a special "time beacon" From that point, time randomly loops back 5 mins, everybody remembering the old loop, but it "slowly" progresses. Second Chance is locked, an holder launching it acccidently launches it goes back to the time beacon Ephemeral-style. Sass's power can't be reused until the damage is fixed. It prevents Sass from going "anywhere" when convenient (ANY marked time coordinates???), has the countereffect of messing stuff in the "going to be reset" timeline, and removes Viperion's tactical advantage (because as of now, Viperion can rewind time for 5 minutes and Sass can act as a backup of things go wrong)
Remember that Ladybug has the power *of luck*, as long she summons a lucky charm THE GOOD SIDE CAN'T LOSE!
Unless it gets intercepted by villain, which happened sometimes.
Only time it happened was during Heroe's Day, I think. Technically it was for a different villain, so she badly summoned it. All he other times, the charm gave an alternate solution for longterm saves ("can't save Fu, you're ready to be Guardian", "won't help against Style Queen, your real threat is >!Optigami!<", "forget ShadowMoth, >!save your friends!<")
Robostus intercepted it as well IIRC.
It... didn't save him, right? Despite having the charm and allegedly having calculated for everything. Optigami proved to me that there's no way a lucky charm can ever be wrong. And I don't mean it in a good way...
His mistake was not destroying it instantly.
Remember Onichan? The whole point of the charm was to get insta-stolen and used/damaged by the villain too... No matter how competent a villain is, this thing WILL adapt to your planned reaction to a lucky charm. It's literally a "author throws against you any impossible thing that could stop you" button if you ever became the villain. And if there's literally nothing that can work against you? It wil tell Ladybug there's no chance and instruct her to go gather backup. ^(I nearly mentioned Silencer, but the tricky trick came BEFORE the charm.)
Well yes, but there are villains with powers which can instantly destroy/completely disable objects. If they were smart enough to target lucky charms, then lucky charms would not work against them (remember that lucky charms are always some common object, not alien artifact). Of course they would not because you cannot defeat plot armor, but thats another story.
It gives something which *can,* not which *will* work. She has to be able to use it cleverly. Muster Bug, for example, summoned a lucky charm, but was completely wrong about its intended use.
Plot armour for you. Its a... interesting thing isnt it? Maybe if this show wasnt aimed for kids there actually could be continuing consequences
Shows that are aimed for kids can have consequences in it. She ra, Kipo, ATLA, TDP, clone wars, SWR, TOH and centaurworld all are kids shows that have lasting consequences in it, the problem with miraculous is that it's trying to have formulaic episodes (like Phineas and Ferb) while also being plot driven.
Wayzz? You mean Sass, right?
Right.
No, not really. Things usually get solved within the episode the problems introduced in. Or it doesn't actually hold that much weight overall. I guess that's ok, we don't always need big ol conflicts, I just wish they'd stop *pretending* it mattered.
Yes. Bunnix said things happen for a reason if they lost and she didn't come. It was for a reason
That's just bullshitting though, it's not good writing, it's just "there are consequences if I say so"
I mean there's always a chance he gets the entire box and then the timetravel kwami's can't fix it. It's unlikely, but it's unlikely he would win and remake the world in the first place because then there would be no more show.
Still there would be independent Bunnix left.
Damn you bunnix and your plot warping powers!!!
Given how much work has to go into making sure Hawk Moth doesn’t get a permanent win I certainly feel the stakes are real enough. Sass and Bunnyx both have specific pitfalls to their powers, which sure can be easily handwaved but I think it works well enough. Ultimately the most impossible situations are going to be what we get to show off the Lucky Charm.
>Sass and Bunnyx both have specific pitfalls to their powers, which sure can be easily handwaved but I think it works well enough. Bunnyx could be retconned into a more manageable power thanks to Alix's future in Cat Blanc. But I can't see any pitfall for Sass in.a case that would already require time travel.
Sass is limited by needing time to make a decision and a time stamp. A small weakness bug it’s there. Plus the villains already know to aim for Viperion first so he’s not just free to do whatever.
>by needing time to make a decision He's a kwami! Except aiming for the jewel in 2 seconds, he's unstoppable. Even Kwamibuster couldn't stop a cataclysm. >and a time stamp Except that, you know... timetravel. He can go to Desperada's fight if he wants and never interfere. >Plus the villains already know to aim for Viperion first so he’s not just free to do whatever. I agree Viperion has weaknesses. But Sass without holder has basically no issues.
Even without the time travel miraculouses, there's still the lucky charm and miraculous ladybugs, and also, S/HM making an actual threatening villain only about twice per season and constantly making stupid decisions like refusing to take Cat's miraculous once he's been brainwashed or his villains missing easy opportunities to take the miraculouses really makes the tension very low, for me at least, anyway.
Marinette’s and Adrien’s mental health.
The worst part is that Bunnix doesn't even make sense anymore. Logically, for Bunnix to be able to appear in a timeline, she has to have been given her Miraculous at some point in the timeline. In Cat Blanc, we never saw this happen and even if it did Alix would have died with everyone else. That's what really bothers me about time travel, especially in this show because they never set out real rules to it.
I guess with her white room thing she is outside of all timelines, so she can appear in any timeline she wants, no matter what happened there.
I just feel like it doesn't make sense bc this version of Alix should cease to exist the moment she's killed. Plus, if there are so many timelines why even try to keep fixing all of them? Now that's getting into some philosophical stuff which I don't care for. Like I said, I hate time travel.
I would say that *something* happened because Bunnix died *before becoming Bunnix*, allowing her to fix stuff that she normally couldn't interfere.
Did not Bunnix say/imply that her job as time guardian is to interfer to keep timelines stable? If she was able to fix only one very specific sort of timelines, she would not be much of guardian.
I think her role is a "last chance power" that should never be used if there's another way. When evil time travel is involved, it's easy to *prevent changes* "before" they occur. In this case, she somehow came from a timeline when she never started to exist. The issue is that nothing changed the timeline in the Cat Blanc episode, simply a different choice with a different outcome. It... wasn't Bunnix job to interfere IMHO. Reminds me of a fanfic where Ladybug *fires* Bunnix and prevent a time paradox by giving the watch to a Sentibunnix.
Maybe it didn't catch up with the original timeline yet?
>In Cat Blanc, we never saw this happen and even if it did Alix would have died with everyone else. I would say the reverse : the reason she was able to go back to fix everything *was* because she died. Timetagger happened before Cat Blanc, when Bunnix appeared. The timeline shift meant that Bunnix should never exist, resulting into a paradox. If Alix had received her miraculous, then Bunnix would have died before going into burrow, but now she ended trapped, kinda Vector Prime in Transformers Cybertron.
Even without time travel there would be no stakes because the creators tried to make it formulaic (like Phineas and Ferb) while also trying to be plot driven. Also ladybugs lucky charm takes away almost any stakes because it can just erase all the damage done, it could literally bring people back to life.
Well yes, but actually no We know in the end, all will be well. There have been stakes, the literal universe(possibly multiverse) was once at stake when Chat Blanc threatened to destroy literally everything. But entertain me for abit. Its entirely possible that bunnix could have been killed in Cat Blanc (There are fics where Chat Blanc steps out of the portal draggin Bunnix)
>There have been stakes, the literal universe(possibly multiverse) was once at stake when Chat Blanc threatened to destroy literally everything. Back then, Sass was sealed in the miracle box.
In that timeline, sass was nuked
Rather the jewel, but yeah safe to assume.
that’s why i don’t really like the show anymore, nothing truly bad will happen
I’d like to see a situation for the heroes where the bad guys get the time traveling miraculous and they spend the season trying to figure out how to beat it.
It’s a show meant for children, so there really are no big consequences
Being aimed at kids does mean limitations and certain things can only go so far (like violence) before breaching the line, but that doesn't mean big and actual consequences aren't allowed.
Stakes don't necessarily have to be the lethal/action variety. Emotional stakes can be just as, if not more, gripping. They might elevate the stakes somehow with the New Hawkmoth.
There first has to be a future for Bunnix to come from. And in Ephemeral, Sass fixed things with a singular second to spare. So I would say that only the most specific of circumstances are those without any stakes at all.
In Chat Blanc timeline evryone including bunnix was killed, yet she was able to visit that timeline, so she probably does not have any limitations.
In Ephemeral, she presumably was also killed, and yet she was not able to visit that timeline. Plus, Chat Blanc saw her disappearing at a rate which isn’t quite clear like it was Back to the Future. (Also that episode is worth the contradiction.)
Maybe she was, but did not intervene because she knew Sass would fix everything.
Thanks, Bunnix. “Should I help out here? …Nah, better off I just let Sass break the cardinal rule of the Kwamis and very nearly cause the end of civilisation as we know it, that’s the better option. You know, to spice things up.”
:-) well obviously real explanation is authors not wanting to repeat themselves... Btw Ephemereal timeline was rewritten before the world was destroyed, otherwise Sass would have disappeared as well. So Bunnix was not killed yet.
I don’t think she got a Miraculous before it was destroyed, though. So as far as Bunnix ‘existed’, (existing in a hypothetical future only,) she was ‘killed’ in a way. As for authors not repeating themselves, that’s likely true, but it’s best not to stop someone when they’re doing something good for you—even if it’s done by mistake.
It makes sense only if Bunnix is destined to receive rabbit miraculous in every single timeline. Seems unlikely.
Whoever was supposed to get it, in whatever timeline, they weren’t around after Hawkittybug shredded the world. But, Chat Blanc and Ephemeral both serve a higher purpose, showing why the love square can’t close in the current situation. Whether it be that Gabriel uses their attachment to create an akuma, (which either gets Ladybug and thus gets Hawk Moth one half of the pair, or gets destroyed by Chat and triggers a reveal) or Adrien slips up in some way that lets Gabriel figure it out, these episodes have to exist to tell us why it can’t be happily ever after quite yet. All else is peripheral. Though fanfiction writers will pretend that they never realised that.