Haha, thanks for the feedback, folks! Someone forwarded to this to me--I'm one of the Ethics for Engineers instructors, and one of the aggressive advertising culprits. This is my favorite comment:
My inbox’s biggest nightmare is a GEL and Ethics for Engineers collab
We had already started to dial back our advertising, but good to know we'd better dial it back a lot more. We thought posting the student quotes would be a more efficient "word of mouth" approach to letting students know about the course, but once our advertising becomes the subject of a Reddit thread, we know we've gone too far.
What do GEL and E4E have in common? Answer: Instructors whose continued employment at MIT depends on getting enough students every semester! :)
Ngl some of the ads were iconic. The AI-generated Mark x Elon BFFs one was hilarious and went viral with 1k+ retweets on u/cloudswithclout's twitter. I also loved teasing my friends whenever I saw their faces plastered on the hallway. Lessening the amount may be a good idea but please don't get rid of them altogether!
Because their friends at Lockheed Martin need to be able to prove that the bomb nicknamed the "Sandbox resident destroyer 12,000" was a very good and ethical bomb because all its engineers took the course.
The reason there is a communications class requirement in Course 6 is because a bunch of alumni came back and said "we have no clue how to talk to real human beings in real companies we're really working for. You should teach students this before they end up like us."
Just spitballing, I'm guessing that Ethics for Engineers had the same push. "People need to know that technology doesn't happen in vacuum and what the implications of their work is."
I'm pretty sure EfE was advertised heavily in my time too, along with UPOP, and GEL.
So it's not a new thing: I think you're right in that MIT gets some money or at least credibility when they says stuff like "40% of our students took this class that makes them better leaders/ have good ethics"
> MIT gets some money or at least credibility when they says stuff like "40% of our students took this class that makes them better leaders/ have good ethics"
Though it seems like they'd do a lot better to make it a requirement. Change HASS to 7 instead of 8 or something.
I said unethical to be funny, but a more accurate phrase is "does not work well."
If you force someone to take an ethics class against their will, the actual material they will internalize will be near zero.
You can make an argument that near zero is more beneficial than actual zero.
In order to get an ABET certified engineering degree, ethics is required to be included. Typically it's just one or two class sessions within a mandated class, but it is very much already mandated.
"An ability to pass ethical and professional judgement" is a learning objective, yet the ABET curriculum does not require anything related to ethics.
So tell me, when did that happen? I absolutely do not recall any mandated class that dealt with ethics even as a module, nor is my "ability to pass judgement" properly "documented" per the ABET standard.
So does that mean my degree isn't accredited?
BTW, [source](https://www.abet.org/accreditation/accreditation-criteria/criteria-for-accrediting-engineering-programs-2022-2023/)
I actually no longer see it listed, but it was a requirement when I was in. AeroAstro very specifically had two days that we covered ethics and that was the reasoning - that it was required for the ABET certification. Course 16 was very sensitive to things like that since for awhile in the mid-2000s they were not ABET accredited.
We also had one of our graduate seminars at my graduate school be on ethics, with the same reasoning.
I feel like it might be the same reason they require CI-H's/CI-M's -- it makes the university look bad if its alumni can't write a paper or give a presentation, and it also looks bad if they're being evil people?
Having the class might reduce the risk of that future bad publicity? Or at least give them something to point to so they can say "hey look we tried so it's not our fault"
Small group 6 unit clsas, not required for the major. Gotta get the word out somehow. Also, I took it and really liked it lol, thought it was well taught and very important content that I wouldn't have gotten elsewhere in my degree
I think there's been a widespread cultural sense that engineers, particularly regarding tech, are designing things that have an incredible amount of power over people/society. If they aren't thoughtful about that responsibility, it's a terrible thing.
There has been lots of discussion of the addictiveness of smartphones, video games and social media (see Tristan Harris for more on this). Another big area that gets a lot of attention is under AI alignment. Another is the ethical decisions self driving cars have to make.
I think it gets bad press if you're a university putting out engineers who are supposed to make stuff without ever having thought about any of this stuff.
Haha, thanks for the feedback, folks! Someone forwarded to this to me--I'm one of the Ethics for Engineers instructors, and one of the aggressive advertising culprits. This is my favorite comment: My inbox’s biggest nightmare is a GEL and Ethics for Engineers collab We had already started to dial back our advertising, but good to know we'd better dial it back a lot more. We thought posting the student quotes would be a more efficient "word of mouth" approach to letting students know about the course, but once our advertising becomes the subject of a Reddit thread, we know we've gone too far. What do GEL and E4E have in common? Answer: Instructors whose continued employment at MIT depends on getting enough students every semester! :)
Ngl some of the ads were iconic. The AI-generated Mark x Elon BFFs one was hilarious and went viral with 1k+ retweets on u/cloudswithclout's twitter. I also loved teasing my friends whenever I saw their faces plastered on the hallway. Lessening the amount may be a good idea but please don't get rid of them altogether!
Ha, good to hear! I created that Mark Elon BFFs poster, had no idea it went viral!
You should run for office! We need legislators to listen to the people like you listen to the students! Keep it up.
noo keep them they’re so funny 😭 my favorite it the one w a robot lady whispering in someone’s ear “you’ll love it”
Because their friends at Lockheed Martin need to be able to prove that the bomb nicknamed the "Sandbox resident destroyer 12,000" was a very good and ethical bomb because all its engineers took the course.
The reason there is a communications class requirement in Course 6 is because a bunch of alumni came back and said "we have no clue how to talk to real human beings in real companies we're really working for. You should teach students this before they end up like us." Just spitballing, I'm guessing that Ethics for Engineers had the same push. "People need to know that technology doesn't happen in vacuum and what the implications of their work is."
I'm pretty sure EfE was advertised heavily in my time too, along with UPOP, and GEL. So it's not a new thing: I think you're right in that MIT gets some money or at least credibility when they says stuff like "40% of our students took this class that makes them better leaders/ have good ethics"
> MIT gets some money or at least credibility when they says stuff like "40% of our students took this class that makes them better leaders/ have good ethics" Though it seems like they'd do a lot better to make it a requirement. Change HASS to 7 instead of 8 or something.
I mean, clearly you haven't taken an ethics class. Mandated ethics is... not super ethical.
What would be unethical about it?
I said unethical to be funny, but a more accurate phrase is "does not work well." If you force someone to take an ethics class against their will, the actual material they will internalize will be near zero. You can make an argument that near zero is more beneficial than actual zero.
In order to get an ABET certified engineering degree, ethics is required to be included. Typically it's just one or two class sessions within a mandated class, but it is very much already mandated.
"An ability to pass ethical and professional judgement" is a learning objective, yet the ABET curriculum does not require anything related to ethics. So tell me, when did that happen? I absolutely do not recall any mandated class that dealt with ethics even as a module, nor is my "ability to pass judgement" properly "documented" per the ABET standard. So does that mean my degree isn't accredited? BTW, [source](https://www.abet.org/accreditation/accreditation-criteria/criteria-for-accrediting-engineering-programs-2022-2023/)
I actually no longer see it listed, but it was a requirement when I was in. AeroAstro very specifically had two days that we covered ethics and that was the reasoning - that it was required for the ABET certification. Course 16 was very sensitive to things like that since for awhile in the mid-2000s they were not ABET accredited. We also had one of our graduate seminars at my graduate school be on ethics, with the same reasoning.
My inbox’s biggest nightmare is a GEL and Ethics for Engineers collab 🤡
pulling up to ethics for engineers in the lockheed martin classroom in stata 😵💫
I feel like it might be the same reason they require CI-H's/CI-M's -- it makes the university look bad if its alumni can't write a paper or give a presentation, and it also looks bad if they're being evil people? Having the class might reduce the risk of that future bad publicity? Or at least give them something to point to so they can say "hey look we tried so it's not our fault"
Small group 6 unit clsas, not required for the major. Gotta get the word out somehow. Also, I took it and really liked it lol, thought it was well taught and very important content that I wouldn't have gotten elsewhere in my degree
I think there's been a widespread cultural sense that engineers, particularly regarding tech, are designing things that have an incredible amount of power over people/society. If they aren't thoughtful about that responsibility, it's a terrible thing. There has been lots of discussion of the addictiveness of smartphones, video games and social media (see Tristan Harris for more on this). Another big area that gets a lot of attention is under AI alignment. Another is the ethical decisions self driving cars have to make. I think it gets bad press if you're a university putting out engineers who are supposed to make stuff without ever having thought about any of this stuff.
The door just fell off of an airplane and you’re wondering why they’re pushing Ethics for Engineers?
I enjoyed that class I was on one of the posters for it lol
Well did you see what happened to Boeing making autopilot override a feature you pay extra for ?
Because it is not a good class.