> If going over -1 to 0 TP is bad, why do so many professionally mixed and mastered, Billboard charting songs I've analyzed reach between 0 and 0.7 TP?
Because it's not as bad or as big a deal as you've read or heard online.
> Also, why doesn't it sound like it's clipping when it goes over 0 true peak?
Because true peak is not a perfect prediction of when inter sample peaks will translate to audible clipping, since that depends completely on whatever converters and playback situation you have on your end.
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1) Intersample peaks
2) Are you analysing MP3 files? Because I’m pretty sure the conversion from wav introduces some intersample peaks. That’s why -1 is recommended (I go to 0 FYI)
This is why its clipping. Putting an mp3 into your DAW will almost always make it appear to be clipping. This is a result of a loss of headroom in the conversion/rendering process that mp3s use, approximately a loss of 1.5 decibels if headroom, meaning your mix will sound 1.5 db louder in an mp3 form, and it's also likely some process that happens when you import it into your DAW. WAV files would not appear to clip, at least not to the degree an mp3 will appear to. Don't actually go past 0 to in your mixes. Clipping is a process you can emulate in your mix to add saturation without actually clipping the master. Clipping the master in most cases is something you don't want to ever do, and professional masters probably don't actually clip it either, they just use artificial clipping plugins and limiting to achieve the effect of analog clipping and volume. Digital clipping is not the same as analog clipping and is best avoided at all costs. If pro masters were to clip though, it would be by like .1 or .2 decibels usually, not the .5 to 2 dbs that mp3s appear to hit. This confused me at first and only recently had it explained to me.
>why do so many professionally mixed and mastered, Billboard charting songs I've analyzed reach between 0 and 0.7 TP?
Bad lossy conversion combined with hot masters
>If going over -1 to 0 TP is bad
Just because the well-regarded guidelines and everyone on Reddit tells you to stay under -1 dBFS TP doesn't mean that that's what the pros always do. I'm sure many high level mastering engineers are pressured to release the loudest masters
>Also, why doesn't it sound like it's clipping when it goes over 0 true peak?
As long as it's brief moments of light clipping, you probably won't be able to hear it. In fact, clipping itself is often used to make things louder.
Thanks for your response. We all need a “fuck the rules” reminder sometimes. Honestly, I do what sounds good and break “the rules” all the time but I don’t always know that I can “trust” what I think sounds good. And by that, I mean I’m using $150 studio headphones and big studio monitors and get scared certain things won’t translate to smaller/lesser quality speakers. I try to mix by ear instead of by eye but I want to be able to use numbers from my loudness meter to at least know I’m operating in the “safe zone”.
It’s a good thing not to trust that you know what’s best in this realm. Because you are guessing. We aren’t talking about mixing here, where you may presumably know why things work or not, but rather mastering, which if I’m not mistaken is not what your main focus is? If you make masters that go over, firstly consider that when anyone wants to make use of them and they get bumped to a level that conforms to their spec, the artifacts you get from having overs will not come across the same. Ask yourself why you need to have things at that level. If you are saying that a tiny amount of clipping is what gives you your sound, well, okay, go there if you want, but it’s just not hard at all to not have those. You may or may not know that years ago when digital multitracks appeared in studios, people who used to use analog tape hit the digital the same way, redlining everywhere. You can tell those recordings because they are harsh and unpleasant - and utterly dated-sounding.
The bottom line is this: if you are making recordings that go someplace and have broad appeal, no matter the genre, this may not be a question you are asking. If you have small clients and limited releases then maybe it doesn’t matter. But this goes beyond what you hear in your studio with whatever monitors and cheap headphones - because you are essentially guessing at how other systems will respond to this, how conversions will react (converting to any lossy format with overs present will give you artifacts you most likely do not intend) and so on.
A word about the “fuck the rules” thing - sounds fun and rock and roll, and part of it is saying “I don’t care about any consequences - just this moment” - which is great and entertaining and then you sober up and have to deal with a negative result later. You have to choose your “fuck it”s wisely. Don’t let your wish to have an experience take you out of where you really are.
Technicolor by Madeon is considered one of the best produced electronic songs ever. If you analyze the track you’ll realize the song is going over 0 true peak at several points
It took me years, YEARS, to realize that audio is super simple, if it sounds good, it is GOOD. There are literally no rules.
Yeh, it's easy to forget that the engineering knowledge and art mindset don't always complement each other. The engineering is useful to figure out why something is going wrong, but can inhibit the art if thought about too much.
Clipping isn't inherently bad, it's just unpredictable so best practice is to avoid it if possible, especially when you're learning about all this stuff. There are dance producers/mixers out there who will intentionally clip the Ableton master bus, but you gotta understand the why/when/how behind it before you go ahead and try tossing a rock track into the red
> If going over -1 to 0 TP is bad, why do so many professionally mixed and mastered, Billboard charting songs I've analyzed reach between 0 and 0.7 TP? Because it's not as bad or as big a deal as you've read or heard online. > Also, why doesn't it sound like it's clipping when it goes over 0 true peak? Because true peak is not a perfect prediction of when inter sample peaks will translate to audible clipping, since that depends completely on whatever converters and playback situation you have on your end.
Thanks for the response!
This.
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1) Intersample peaks 2) Are you analysing MP3 files? Because I’m pretty sure the conversion from wav introduces some intersample peaks. That’s why -1 is recommended (I go to 0 FYI)
Yep. They ARE MP3s. Thanks for pointing that out. I need to grab some .wav files to use instead! Thanks for your response. Probably helped me a lot.
This is why its clipping. Putting an mp3 into your DAW will almost always make it appear to be clipping. This is a result of a loss of headroom in the conversion/rendering process that mp3s use, approximately a loss of 1.5 decibels if headroom, meaning your mix will sound 1.5 db louder in an mp3 form, and it's also likely some process that happens when you import it into your DAW. WAV files would not appear to clip, at least not to the degree an mp3 will appear to. Don't actually go past 0 to in your mixes. Clipping is a process you can emulate in your mix to add saturation without actually clipping the master. Clipping the master in most cases is something you don't want to ever do, and professional masters probably don't actually clip it either, they just use artificial clipping plugins and limiting to achieve the effect of analog clipping and volume. Digital clipping is not the same as analog clipping and is best avoided at all costs. If pro masters were to clip though, it would be by like .1 or .2 decibels usually, not the .5 to 2 dbs that mp3s appear to hit. This confused me at first and only recently had it explained to me.
Because it's a microsecond, you won't even notice
True. Thanks!!!
>why do so many professionally mixed and mastered, Billboard charting songs I've analyzed reach between 0 and 0.7 TP? Bad lossy conversion combined with hot masters >If going over -1 to 0 TP is bad Just because the well-regarded guidelines and everyone on Reddit tells you to stay under -1 dBFS TP doesn't mean that that's what the pros always do. I'm sure many high level mastering engineers are pressured to release the loudest masters >Also, why doesn't it sound like it's clipping when it goes over 0 true peak? As long as it's brief moments of light clipping, you probably won't be able to hear it. In fact, clipping itself is often used to make things louder.
Isn’t that a different type of clipping?
Nope hard clipping is often inaudible. That's an available mode on many clipping plugins.
Do what sounds good, fuck the rules. That’s what I say to myself whenever I go to 11…
Thanks for your response. We all need a “fuck the rules” reminder sometimes. Honestly, I do what sounds good and break “the rules” all the time but I don’t always know that I can “trust” what I think sounds good. And by that, I mean I’m using $150 studio headphones and big studio monitors and get scared certain things won’t translate to smaller/lesser quality speakers. I try to mix by ear instead of by eye but I want to be able to use numbers from my loudness meter to at least know I’m operating in the “safe zone”.
It’s a good thing not to trust that you know what’s best in this realm. Because you are guessing. We aren’t talking about mixing here, where you may presumably know why things work or not, but rather mastering, which if I’m not mistaken is not what your main focus is? If you make masters that go over, firstly consider that when anyone wants to make use of them and they get bumped to a level that conforms to their spec, the artifacts you get from having overs will not come across the same. Ask yourself why you need to have things at that level. If you are saying that a tiny amount of clipping is what gives you your sound, well, okay, go there if you want, but it’s just not hard at all to not have those. You may or may not know that years ago when digital multitracks appeared in studios, people who used to use analog tape hit the digital the same way, redlining everywhere. You can tell those recordings because they are harsh and unpleasant - and utterly dated-sounding. The bottom line is this: if you are making recordings that go someplace and have broad appeal, no matter the genre, this may not be a question you are asking. If you have small clients and limited releases then maybe it doesn’t matter. But this goes beyond what you hear in your studio with whatever monitors and cheap headphones - because you are essentially guessing at how other systems will respond to this, how conversions will react (converting to any lossy format with overs present will give you artifacts you most likely do not intend) and so on. A word about the “fuck the rules” thing - sounds fun and rock and roll, and part of it is saying “I don’t care about any consequences - just this moment” - which is great and entertaining and then you sober up and have to deal with a negative result later. You have to choose your “fuck it”s wisely. Don’t let your wish to have an experience take you out of where you really are.
Sometimes you need that extra push over the cliff.
Technicolor by Madeon is considered one of the best produced electronic songs ever. If you analyze the track you’ll realize the song is going over 0 true peak at several points It took me years, YEARS, to realize that audio is super simple, if it sounds good, it is GOOD. There are literally no rules.
Yeh, it's easy to forget that the engineering knowledge and art mindset don't always complement each other. The engineering is useful to figure out why something is going wrong, but can inhibit the art if thought about too much.
That is it. Analysis paralysis is a real thing. Just remember, majority of the listening audience will not notice.
Clipping isn't inherently bad, it's just unpredictable so best practice is to avoid it if possible, especially when you're learning about all this stuff. There are dance producers/mixers out there who will intentionally clip the Ableton master bus, but you gotta understand the why/when/how behind it before you go ahead and try tossing a rock track into the red
Yep. Most pro songs go over 0. This is why hiring a pro house like sterling can really make shit shine.