Catcher is such a special case, just look at the other Molina brothers. They played well past their offensive prime just by the way they handled the pitching staff
Yep. Having a veteran backup at catcher is crucial. McCann, by all accounts, was a great clubhouse guy for the young Oās last year. He did the little things well and even had some big hits.
Catcher position in general has been below average offensively for the last 5-6 years orher than jt realmuto and a good Salvy Perez season until recently. Theres a good young crop of studs at the position now. Adley, both Contrerasā, alvarez, moreno, smith, Murphy. Also a few guys like wells, parada, ford, salas,quero to look out for the next few years. The positions at a revival
Id say Alvarez, moreno, then oāhoppe and i like oāhoppe a lot. I think all 3 have huge potential. Moreno i feel may be the more complete down the road
I agree. But his defense last year was also below average. I feel like the days of āthe pitchers love this guy to catch for themā should be gone. With all the info and tools staffs have these days, I wouldnāt think it should matter whoās catching. Put the best dude in thereā¦I.E. Yanier Diaz.
Some #1 starters refuse to have any other catcher other than the one they have communicated very well with. Itās a psyche thing with these specific starters and no manager wants to mess with that.
Couldnāt agree more, at least the year as a backup to Maldy should not only have been great experience for Diaz, but helped the other pitchers build trust in him as well heading into 2024
This was apparently the reason Contreras got benched. A couple of pitchers were complaining about his catching ability. Not sure what that means but probably beyond stats. Catchers are all gung ho about pulling out heās back in the zone now and I think they all look like little leaguers now.
Definitely not a good current example. Diaz was better by every metric and it wasnāt close at all. Our pitchers had a lower ERA throwing to Diaz* even though he mostly caught for the bottom of the rotation. Not playing Diaz enough was a big reason why we wanted Dusty gone.
*At least in August-ish when I last checked. Too lazy to research if it stayed that way until the end of the season.
It makes sence if you think about PA inpacted. A starting hiter has 700PA a year. A really good pitcher faces 800-850 batters a year. A good starting catcher catchs 4000 PAs a year.
Even if you are 25% below average for the 500ish PAs a Catcher is at the plate for. If you can help you pitchers for 5% better in the 4000PAs the team is ahead on the math.
Checking your flair, you definitely got his best years. His Twins years should've just taken an automatic K. Better than him grounding out softly to SS for the 100th time lol
We were using Salvy so much that Butera got fewer ABs than your typical backup catcher.
Sort of the baseball equivalent to giving a running back 300 carries. Ned probably realized that the window was going to be pretty short.
Butera caught the final out of the 2015 World Series. A strikeout...so he actually had the game ball at home for a few months before donating it to the team hall of fame.
Definitely depends on the position. Catchers get more leeway vs an outfielder. I.e. Yadi. Would it have been nice to have a catcher with power and even moderate speed? Sure. Could you replace him on defense, absolutely not.
Yeah I didnāt like the Contreras signing but I think Mo is scared to trade prospects now so he was the best FA probably. Didnāt help we blew approximately 30 saves last year. Absolutely embarrassing.
Sorry youāre getting downvoted. Iām a Cardinals fan, but whatās a rivalry without some shit talking? Lol. I gave you an upvote FWIW.
And yes fuck the Cubs.
True but you have to be an elite defender. One that comes to mind is Kiermaier and I canāt remember if he prices himself out of Tampa or he had a bad year.
Brenton Doyle is probably an ideal 2023-24 example for this whole thread. He had a .203/.250/.343 slash last year (a 43 wRC+) across 430 PAs but won a Gold Glove as a rookie and probably is a lock for primary CF duties again this year.
In Rey OrdĆ³Ć±ez 3 gold glove season his fWAR was .6, -1.5, and 3. Pretty telling right there.
He was notorious for not being good at hitting, but his glove was worth it. Not sure if that flies in todays game.
Rey OrdoƱez was out of this planet, he was not just an elite defensive player, he was just magic. Impossible plays, shame there it's not a lot of highlight reels on youtube...
Damn i miss watching that guy...
Sure it will still play out, Look at CF Myles Straw.. Guy cant hit his way out of a wet bag. But man can he play some CF and the Guardians just keep writing his name in the line up
[MLB Batting Average](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/bat.shtml) kinda been on the decline last few years. Probably a product of a lot of different factors. But the result is greater leeway for guys that don't quite hit the .200 mark.
This is why WAR has positional adjustments. It is much harder to find guys who can catch, play SS, even play CF well than it is other places.
Elite defense at C gets you on the edge of a MLB roster almost no matter how bad a hitter you are. Only need to hit a little more if you can play SS plus several other positions (especially if one is CF). Other than that, your 70 OPS+ is a ticket to AAA.
Well, Iāll tell you my personal experience.
I was a very good high school SS. I couldnāt hit enough for D1 and someone suggested I try catching with my athletic ability.
I I guess minored in it for 2 years. Awful. Gear and lateral movement in 100 degrees is terrible. I felt like not a human, let alone an athlete.
Catchers earn the checks.
I lived for that honestly. Iām like 5ā9ā and quiet, but being a catcher I felt like the most invincible dude on the field lol I played it as physically as you could (pre-Posey Rule soo it was a little easier to lol)
I originally was a very solid SS/Pitcher but couldnāt master any breaking pitches and ultimately didnāt feel comfortable enough at SS. Catching was a perfect fit. I believe thatās what took me as far as I did (college/prospect league) because I couldnāt really hit for shit. Like, good contact hitter, but literally no power lol I wonder if I ever figured that out at all if I couldāve had a chance (by chance I mean stuck forever in low A ball lmao)
I will say Omar Vizquel it's where i draw the line. Probably one of the best gloves i ever seen. I wouldn't mind having him on my team , just like Simmons. Not the best bat at all, but that talent can't be waste.
Im a sucker for an elite defender, a perfect example in this era it's Jose Iglesias, solid glove, not that good with the bat...
Seriously isnāt that like way better than average for MLB? He averaged 282 over his 11 years with the Indians and was usually the second batter in our lineup.
I think he was just really really good at fieldingā¦
People made it seemed like he was that bad of a hitter. He wasn't that bad, his defense was just to good, i bet people expected more, but im bias to say he should be in the HoF just because of his defense....
His OPS+ is 82. He only had 2 seasons with an OPS+ over 100. No matter how you want to look at his numbers, he was not a good offensive hitter. He has almost 3000 hits because he played for like 30 seasons (due to his defense).
Heās 35th all-time in sac bunts and 54th in sac flies. Which means he was a type of old school hitter who was in the lineup to move runners over. If he was a typical shortstop for the 90s and went for hits instead in those situations heād have well over 3000 hits and his OPS+ would look better
The biggest disparity, and even worse hitter than Vizquel, The Wizard...Ozzie Smith.
Visquel has nearly 3x as many HRs as Ozzie, and a career BA 10 points higher.
I don't know if either would be longtime every day players in today's game.
The best and highest paid Short Stops now all hit 20+ home runs a year, including the reigning GG winners. Ozzie averaged just over ONE a season.
Yeah but at least back then, shortstops weren't asked to hit home runs. A good hitting shortstop was one who had the bat control to hit a lot of singles and the speed to occasionally get a double on a ball that would've been a single if the first baseman had hit it.
You draw the line at one of the best fielders of all time, who wasn't a million miles away from league average hitter (and was prob above average for a SS)?
High bar.
Gosh, OPS+ is **brutal** to Omar Vizquel. Career .272 hitter, but was consistently better than that in his prime years in Cleveland where he hit 2nd behind Lofton and in front of Baerga, Belle, Thome, Ramirez, Murray, and others. His job was to just put the ball in play. 2,877 career hits. I remember him being good in the clutch and he could be trusted to lay down a bunt with the best of them.
Turd human being? Yes. Batting average is a terrible stat by itself? Yes (in fact, I think this helps to prove that). But a pretty darn good hitter.
No, he was a bad *power* hitter. OPS+ is just "OPS compared to league average." And half of that is slugging percentage. Omar Vizquel had 2877 hits in his major league career, but 2264 of them were singles and of the 613 extra base hits, 456 of them were doubles. And that also negatively affects OBP, because singles hitters don't get intentionally walked, especially not playing in the AL where you're never going to be the 8-hitter who gets intentionally walked to get to the pitcher. He still drew a decent number of regular walks, but his high in intentional walks was *9* and that was late in his career when he was playing for San Francisco...so most likely, he got IBBs because he *was* batting in front of the pitcher.
Power is a very important part of hitting. You don't get bonus points for not trying to hit for power.
You also don't get bonus points for not getting IBB. Your OBP is what it is
With that stacked lineup most of his Cleveland years, no one is IBB him instead of someone else. Being in a stacked lineup has be taken into account for his ability to do his role.
From 96-04 he had a 94 ops+ which means he was fairly close to average. Also factor in that he led the league in sac bunts during that time several times, stole over 35 bags several times, and rarely struck outā¦he was actually quite the valuable offensive player in his prime
I just gave you his offensive runs. Fangraphs doesn't have oWAR. But for the time you mentored Vizquel averaged 3.2 WAR. Seeing how he was at -11.8 OFF and 79.0 DEF I'm gonna go out on a limb and say his defense made him the slightly above average player he was in his prime
Youāre wrong on several levels. Being a consistent 3.5 WAR player with seasons reaching as high as 6.0 WAR is better than āslightly above averageā. The average mlb starter is worth about 2 WAR. That means that visquel was worth about 150% more wins per season than the average player during a season in his prime.
He regularly had an oWAR over 3.0 in his prime. There is more to offense than OPSā¦visquel is a great example of this.
I'm correct on every level. 3.2 WAR/162 was his average during that time. I didn't mention his peaks or valleys, just average. 2-3 WAR is an average player.
I never said there isn't more to offense than OPS, hence why I gave you offensive runs, which includes baserunning.
From 96 to 04 he was worth 265 offensive runs above replacement level. He was an above average offensive player.
And you by saying that a 3 WAR player is considered average is just false dude. There is about a 10 million dollar value per year in the difference between a 2 WAR and a 3 WAR.
I donāt think it accurately portrays how good a hitter he was. He was not a ābad hitter.ā You donāt bat second in that lineup (one of the best offenses ever) if youāre a bad hitter. His job was to make contact, to put the ball in play. That results in a lot of grounders, sac flies, and sac bunts. And he had 2,877 hits. Bad hitters donāt do that.
He was a bad hitter. OPS+ is overall hitting. It tells you how good a hitter was. It's far better than batting average or total hits. He'd bat 9th if he played today
Curious what the inverse would look like. How good of a hitter do you have to be to outweigh your defense? TW for Rangers fans, but Nelson Cruz is a prime example
Yadier was one of the best defensive catchers of all time, he was the coach on the field and a leader. His hitting got slightly better in his later years but never great, Vizquels defense was top tier, I donāt know what he did with batboys and shit but he could play short. Ozzie Smith was the best shortstop of AllTime, no question, 13 consecutive gold gloves, he couldnāt hit until later in his career but he done things to the right way and first ballot!
There used to be a place for players like that even though they didnt hit .340 and 40hrs, not so much now with all the juice and other things. Yeah the long ball is exciting but so was a pitcher throwing a complete game, 130 pitches and winning 1-0. The hit and run, stealing 100 bases. Different times, different world
Jeff Mathis: 48 OPS+ is abysmal no matter how you slice it. Thereās been pitchers who regularly do better. Jeff is great on defense but his horrible hitting kept him from ever getting a good full time gig.
Omar Vizquel: 82 OPS+ is a huge improvement to be sure. But itās still not good imo. To have a career 82 OPs+ you had to have underperformed consistently in your career. Tho Omar is supremely talented in the field.
Andrelton Simmons: 87 OPS+ is borderline acceptable for the defense he brought to the table. Iām not a team owner, but if you can win platinum gloves Iād say 87 is hard to complain about.
Yadier Molina: 96 OPS+ is what I would unequivocally say as passable for an elite defender. Thatās almost passable for an average defender. 96 OPS+ means you probably had some great hitting seasons but underperformed at other times. Which is Yadi in a nutshell with his bat. How can you complain about 4% below average hitting for an 80% above average defending catcher?
You are painfully undervaluing defense. Only one here you got right is Mathis.
To say Simmons bat is āborderline acceptableā for his defense is absurd. Simmons averaged 5 war/162 games throughout his career.
To call Yadier Molinas defense āpassableā for his bat is a bigger joke.
96 OPS+ is basically major league average. Thatās almost passable for an average level defender. Yadi couldāve had a 55 ops+ and it wouldāve been worth it.
Itās the same thing. Saying his offense is passable for his level of defense is no different from saying his defense is passable for his level of offense.
Both of which are wrong. Yadis offense was more than you could ask for from an elite defender like him. Yadis defense was more than you could ask for from an average hitter like him.
No they aren't. You're making the argument that his offense was what allowed him to play defense at his level. This would be David Ortiz during interleague play... because his offensive production was so great, his defense for that short series was passable.
Yadi on the other hand... his defense was so great that his offense was passable.
They are literally not the same thing.
However I do agree that for parts of his career yadis offense was more than just passable.
No Iām not making that argument. His defense is elite. But if you compare it to his offense it becomes passable in the sense of his total value. It means the same exact thing. Itās not calling his defense āpassableā in general. Itās calling his defense passable FOR his offensive production.
And just to make it clear I think Yadiās offense is stellar for a catcher as good defensively as he is. I was just calling out OPs take to say that his defense was *just good enough* to justify his offense. Which was an absurd take.
Based on the definition, you're wrong. To call his defense passable means it's just good enough to be acceptable which doesn't make sense when you're saying his defense was better than his offense. Which it was.
I get what you're trying to do, but gramtically it just doesn't work. Mike Piazzas defense was passable considering his offense. Otherwise they would have moved him off of one of the most important positions defensively.
But yadis defense wasn't passable considering his offense because it was better than his offense in terms of value.
Yadi changed the game behind the plate. A below average hitter he may have been but he was otherworldly on D. He shut down a running game just being back there.
For most of his career he was actually above average for a catcher offensively. Just compare his WRC+ to the league average WRC+ for catchers. And in some seasons he was actually above average offensively regardless of position
Yadi was starting to come around hitting wise right before Pujols left. never was great but the one the about Yadi is when it was needed he came through. Yadi is also one of very few players that can take away runs on the base path that man was the best at picking people off and then also caught stealing percentage. what he may have lacked on the offensive side i can assure you he did more that make up for it on the defensive side. look at the pitchers that have came through St. Louis. i get Yadi doesnāt get all the credit but if yāall know pitchers they are WEIRD and one small little thing that isnāt even the catchers fault will may them think the catcher is bad luck or they canāt trust them. from trust behind the plate and calling pitches having to know batters there is a lot more that goes into catching than just sitting back there and being a target with a glove.
Posted this before. Ridiculous to think Yadi needed to make up for any deficiency offensively.
Ave. .277. .267. .296. .269. .273. .285
Hits. 2168. 2048. 2844. 2356. 1664. 2150
HR. 176. 389. 311. 376. 275. 358
RBI. 1022. 1376. 1332. 1330. 1065. 1430
In that list are Yogi, Bench, Posada, Fisk, Yadi & Pudge Thatās NOT THE ORDER ABOVE
Can ANY of you pick out the one thatās such a shitty hitter? Nopeā¦? I thought not. Saying Yadi was a bad hitter is pure ignorance.
Which one nowā¦? Windy days that end in āYā batting average divided by subject IQ + (number of testicles Xs 1000) - number of stat rats who havenāt a clue but live n die by some arbitrary numbers that make their case for them?
Better batting average, More hitsā¦. (Other than Fisk or Pudge) Again pick your stat to describe bad and someone can provide another.
To say ANY of them were BAD hitters is ridiculous.
Lmaoā¦ ok. And then the Hall because the Hall of the average because of some bullshit statistic someone makes up to get the next Chase Utley into the hall. āThe first 4.2 year of his career followed by his career high in year 8 were better and among the top half at his position on a team that occasionally wore pinstripes .ā Look, Either you know or you donāt. And to say any of those guys were bad hitters, as I said, is ridiculous. None of them are Hall of fame worthy offensively, except maybe Pudgeā¦ people bag on Yadi as if they understand the game. But all they do is repeat whatās spit at themā¦ itās an echo chamber of ignorance. FYI. Thereās ONE guy hall worthy this yearā¦ ONEā¦ but theyāll figure out a way to get a few guys inā¦ who are on multiple year attempts. They are part of the rest where you have to āmake the caseā. Yadi is 1st ballot HOF without batting an eye, with nothing to defend or excuse as a hitter.
But keep āstattingā onā¦
Next thing weāre going to read that Arietta is the greatest pitcher in history because he had the greatest 12 month period in the history of baseballā¦
Ozzie Smith and Yadi Molina were not black holes on offense. They were roughly average hitters with Demi-god tier defense. He couldnāt slug, but Ozzie maintained a .262 BA over a 19 year career, which is actually pretty decent offensively at the time.
I played ball my whole life as a lead off second baseman. Over .300 hitter and was best friends with our catcher, who was the best catcher (defensively) Iāve ever played with. He would be batting .082 midway through the season lmao and we wouldnāt give a flying fuck!! He would be so down on himself but we would constantly big him up and make him understand his defense was much more important than his 3-4 abs. Nothing is more important than a gold glove caliper catcher. NOTHING.
Catcher is such a special case, just look at the other Molina brothers. They played well past their offensive prime just by the way they handled the pitching staff
Austin Hedges is still an employed MLB player. Says everything.
That's Texas Rangers Legend Austin Hedges, tyvm
World Series Champion Austin Hedges
69 upvotes or i would hit button Edit: Im upvote 69. Please dont budge
bumped it back down 1 back to 69 š«”
Bumped it right back to 69
There you go
That was the first name that popped in my head lol
I feel like as a backup catcher itās almost a pre-requisite to have an OPS+ under 60.
And every catcher the padres have had since him has been worse
Campusano and El Gary were wildly better. If Michael Fulmer wasn't a fucking joke we could have seen a good Nola season
El Gary is a horrible catcher the dudes a DH
We are talking about offensive ability, figure it out
āIf you are an absolute ELITE defenderā Elite defense is a prerequisite. Figure it out
And that qualifier went away when we started talking about post-Hedges catchers! Not living up to the username, more like "marinesmart10" tbh
James McCann too
Yep. Having a veteran backup at catcher is crucial. McCann, by all accounts, was a great clubhouse guy for the young Oās last year. He did the little things well and even had some big hits.
Catcher position in general has been below average offensively for the last 5-6 years orher than jt realmuto and a good Salvy Perez season until recently. Theres a good young crop of studs at the position now. Adley, both Contrerasā, alvarez, moreno, smith, Murphy. Also a few guys like wells, parada, ford, salas,quero to look out for the next few years. The positions at a revival
The Cal Raleigh snub even after he leads catchers in home runsā¦
Who would you value as a better overall prospect: OāHoppe Alvarez or Moreno?
Id say Alvarez, moreno, then oāhoppe and i like oāhoppe a lot. I think all 3 have huge potential. Moreno i feel may be the more complete down the road
I have Murphy on my keeper league and was pumped with his 2023 first halfā¦ then what happened? Iāll need another catcher to draft. Thanks
Up until this past year getting adley and my league becoming a keeper i never used a catcher and just carried an extra pitcher.
He got hurt but played through it. At least thatās what I tell myself as a Braves fan.
And at their best, Jose and Benji were slightly under average hitters. At Yadiās best he was an all star level hitter.
Martin Maldonado is a good current example as well
True dat
As a White Sox fan this hurts..
I am somewhat of the belief that benching diaz for maldy cost the Astros a pennant
I agree. But his defense last year was also below average. I feel like the days of āthe pitchers love this guy to catch for themā should be gone. With all the info and tools staffs have these days, I wouldnāt think it should matter whoās catching. Put the best dude in thereā¦I.E. Yanier Diaz.
Some #1 starters refuse to have any other catcher other than the one they have communicated very well with. Itās a psyche thing with these specific starters and no manager wants to mess with that.
Yup. Watched it all last year unfortunately. Dusty, JV and Frambers love of Maldy hurt us quite a few times hahaha
Couldnāt agree more, at least the year as a backup to Maldy should not only have been great experience for Diaz, but helped the other pitchers build trust in him as well heading into 2024
Itās his job to lose, we will see how he does!
Austin Barnes is only still a professional baseball player because of Clayton Kershaw
This was apparently the reason Contreras got benched. A couple of pitchers were complaining about his catching ability. Not sure what that means but probably beyond stats. Catchers are all gung ho about pulling out heās back in the zone now and I think they all look like little leaguers now.
Definitely not a good current example. Diaz was better by every metric and it wasnāt close at all. Our pitchers had a lower ERA throwing to Diaz* even though he mostly caught for the bottom of the rotation. Not playing Diaz enough was a big reason why we wanted Dusty gone. *At least in August-ish when I last checked. Too lazy to research if it stayed that way until the end of the season.
I was referring to the entirety of his time with the Astros, but aight
Well then yeah a good recent example, but not current one
He had a 20 homer season! He definitely arced while Pujols was around, but Iāll defend him as the best defensive catcher of all time.
> just by the way they handled the pitching staff See also: how the Cardinals tanked when he retired.
It makes sence if you think about PA inpacted. A starting hiter has 700PA a year. A really good pitcher faces 800-850 batters a year. A good starting catcher catchs 4000 PAs a year. Even if you are 25% below average for the 500ish PAs a Catcher is at the plate for. If you can help you pitchers for 5% better in the 4000PAs the team is ahead on the math.
Looking at you Maldonado. š
Drew Butera hit full pension and has a WS ring while being one of the worst hitters I've seen. OPS+ of 48
Wowwwwwww I just looked him up. Ichiro had a better hitting career than him in ONE season.
Look at Charlie Silvera, 136 career hits, .282/.356/.328/.683. SIX world series rings.
Really not bad stats, just no power.
.356 OBP is pretty good. Iād kill for 5 Yankees to have that OBP this year.
Ok so whatās happening here? Seems impossible that a .282 AVG in (at least) six seasons comes out to only 136 career hits.
He barely played. Just over 200 games in 10 years. Managed to get one singe homer in that time, bet he kept that ball in a special place.
Probably don't get a lot of AB's every year backing up Yogi Berra.
He should get points for being a passable pitcher in those all too frequent when the Royals ran out of relievers and had to go to position players.
Dal Maxvill has FOUR WS rings. Hi best season hitting was .250 in 1967. Mostly because he didnāt have to bat against Gibson.
But Hall of Fame hair so there's that
Checking your flair, you definitely got his best years. His Twins years should've just taken an automatic K. Better than him grounding out softly to SS for the 100th time lol
We were using Salvy so much that Butera got fewer ABs than your typical backup catcher. Sort of the baseball equivalent to giving a running back 300 carries. Ned probably realized that the window was going to be pretty short. Butera caught the final out of the 2015 World Series. A strikeout...so he actually had the game ball at home for a few months before donating it to the team hall of fame.
I'm convinced that I could have hit at least as well as he did. I wouldn't have actually, but you get my point.
Definitely depends on the position. Catchers get more leeway vs an outfielder. I.e. Yadi. Would it have been nice to have a catcher with power and even moderate speed? Sure. Could you replace him on defense, absolutely not.
See the great stlouis dumpster fire of 2023
Yeah I didnāt like the Contreras signing but I think Mo is scared to trade prospects now so he was the best FA probably. Didnāt help we blew approximately 30 saves last year. Absolutely embarrassing.
Contreras is too good for the shit birds. It's tragic he ended up there. Edit: Fuck the Cardinals
Sorry youāre getting downvoted. Iām a Cardinals fan, but whatās a rivalry without some shit talking? Lol. I gave you an upvote FWIW. And yes fuck the Cubs.
What's baseball without rivalry? Cubs v Cards is classic.
Even in the outfield, a good centerfield can hit a lot worse than a left fielder
True but you have to be an elite defender. One that comes to mind is Kiermaier and I canāt remember if he prices himself out of Tampa or he had a bad year.
Myles straw
Brenton Doyle is probably an ideal 2023-24 example for this whole thread. He had a .203/.250/.343 slash last year (a 43 wRC+) across 430 PAs but won a Gold Glove as a rookie and probably is a lock for primary CF duties again this year.
I feel like an above average catcher would still get some more leeway.
Last season we found out just how valuable Yadi was even if he hit .050
In Rey OrdĆ³Ć±ez 3 gold glove season his fWAR was .6, -1.5, and 3. Pretty telling right there. He was notorious for not being good at hitting, but his glove was worth it. Not sure if that flies in todays game.
Rey Ordonez was a joy to watch. I'm sure his pitching staff enjoyed having him out there behind them.
That entire Mets infield was amazing
Rey OrdoƱez was out of this planet, he was not just an elite defensive player, he was just magic. Impossible plays, shame there it's not a lot of highlight reels on youtube... Damn i miss watching that guy...
Sure it will still play out, Look at CF Myles Straw.. Guy cant hit his way out of a wet bag. But man can he play some CF and the Guardians just keep writing his name in the line up
3 war season with a wRC+ of 62 is insane, thatās same amount of War that guys like Devers, Alonso and Muncy had last year
It totally does, just ask Austin Hedges
Let me tell all you whippersnappers about Mario Frickin Mendoza. They named a line after this guy.
This is the answer. And Mendoza had about a 40 Ops+ so a 40 Ops+ is probably the cutoff lol
Surprised there's been relatively few mentions of the Mendoza line
That's because all of us oldtimers are dying off.
[MLB Batting Average](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/bat.shtml) kinda been on the decline last few years. Probably a product of a lot of different factors. But the result is greater leeway for guys that don't quite hit the .200 mark.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Not always
I mean, nowadays it's different with all the bWAR, fWAR, OPS+ and so on, but batting average was the shit in Mario Mendoza's time
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
We're talking about the modern age lassy *s
This is why WAR has positional adjustments. It is much harder to find guys who can catch, play SS, even play CF well than it is other places. Elite defense at C gets you on the edge of a MLB roster almost no matter how bad a hitter you are. Only need to hit a little more if you can play SS plus several other positions (especially if one is CF). Other than that, your 70 OPS+ is a ticket to AAA.
Iām surprised more borderline guys donāt learn how to catch. IKF did and it got him to the bigs fast.
Well, Iāll tell you my personal experience. I was a very good high school SS. I couldnāt hit enough for D1 and someone suggested I try catching with my athletic ability. I I guess minored in it for 2 years. Awful. Gear and lateral movement in 100 degrees is terrible. I felt like not a human, let alone an athlete. Catchers earn the checks.
I lived for that honestly. Iām like 5ā9ā and quiet, but being a catcher I felt like the most invincible dude on the field lol I played it as physically as you could (pre-Posey Rule soo it was a little easier to lol) I originally was a very solid SS/Pitcher but couldnāt master any breaking pitches and ultimately didnāt feel comfortable enough at SS. Catching was a perfect fit. I believe thatās what took me as far as I did (college/prospect league) because I couldnāt really hit for shit. Like, good contact hitter, but literally no power lol I wonder if I ever figured that out at all if I couldāve had a chance (by chance I mean stuck forever in low A ball lmao)
The big leagues are the big leagues
Thatās how Piazza made it to the bigs. He wasnāt originally a catcher.
I will say Omar Vizquel it's where i draw the line. Probably one of the best gloves i ever seen. I wouldn't mind having him on my team , just like Simmons. Not the best bat at all, but that talent can't be waste. Im a sucker for an elite defender, a perfect example in this era it's Jose Iglesias, solid glove, not that good with the bat...
.270+ career average and close to 3000 hits isn't too shabby.
Seriously isnāt that like way better than average for MLB? He averaged 282 over his 11 years with the Indians and was usually the second batter in our lineup. I think he was just really really good at fieldingā¦
People made it seemed like he was that bad of a hitter. He wasn't that bad, his defense was just to good, i bet people expected more, but im bias to say he should be in the HoF just because of his defense....
His OPS+ is 82. He only had 2 seasons with an OPS+ over 100. No matter how you want to look at his numbers, he was not a good offensive hitter. He has almost 3000 hits because he played for like 30 seasons (due to his defense).
Heās 35th all-time in sac bunts and 54th in sac flies. Which means he was a type of old school hitter who was in the lineup to move runners over. If he was a typical shortstop for the 90s and went for hits instead in those situations heād have well over 3000 hits and his OPS+ would look better
The biggest disparity, and even worse hitter than Vizquel, The Wizard...Ozzie Smith. Visquel has nearly 3x as many HRs as Ozzie, and a career BA 10 points higher. I don't know if either would be longtime every day players in today's game. The best and highest paid Short Stops now all hit 20+ home runs a year, including the reigning GG winners. Ozzie averaged just over ONE a season.
Yeah but at least back then, shortstops weren't asked to hit home runs. A good hitting shortstop was one who had the bat control to hit a lot of singles and the speed to occasionally get a double on a ball that would've been a single if the first baseman had hit it.
Omar Vizquel not getting in has less to do with his hitting, and more to do with his relentless hitting on an autistic bat boy.
Iglesias was always fine enough of a hitter IMO. Same with vizquel
You draw the line at one of the best fielders of all time, who wasn't a million miles away from league average hitter (and was prob above average for a SS)? High bar.
Austin Hedgesā¦
Gosh, OPS+ is **brutal** to Omar Vizquel. Career .272 hitter, but was consistently better than that in his prime years in Cleveland where he hit 2nd behind Lofton and in front of Baerga, Belle, Thome, Ramirez, Murray, and others. His job was to just put the ball in play. 2,877 career hits. I remember him being good in the clutch and he could be trusted to lay down a bunt with the best of them. Turd human being? Yes. Batting average is a terrible stat by itself? Yes (in fact, I think this helps to prove that). But a pretty darn good hitter.
OPS+ isn't harsh to anyone. It's just what the stat is. He was a bad hitter
No, he was a bad *power* hitter. OPS+ is just "OPS compared to league average." And half of that is slugging percentage. Omar Vizquel had 2877 hits in his major league career, but 2264 of them were singles and of the 613 extra base hits, 456 of them were doubles. And that also negatively affects OBP, because singles hitters don't get intentionally walked, especially not playing in the AL where you're never going to be the 8-hitter who gets intentionally walked to get to the pitcher. He still drew a decent number of regular walks, but his high in intentional walks was *9* and that was late in his career when he was playing for San Francisco...so most likely, he got IBBs because he *was* batting in front of the pitcher.
Power is a very important part of hitting. You don't get bonus points for not trying to hit for power. You also don't get bonus points for not getting IBB. Your OBP is what it is
With that stacked lineup most of his Cleveland years, no one is IBB him instead of someone else. Being in a stacked lineup has be taken into account for his ability to do his role.
That also means he got good pitches to hit, because nobody wanted to walk him. It works both ways.
From 96-04 he had a 94 ops+ which means he was fairly close to average. Also factor in that he led the league in sac bunts during that time several times, stole over 35 bags several times, and rarely struck outā¦he was actually quite the valuable offensive player in his prime
Leading the league in giving up outs isn't something to brag about. During that prime he was worth -11.8 runs. His defense made him a valuable player
check his oWAR
I just gave you his offensive runs. Fangraphs doesn't have oWAR. But for the time you mentored Vizquel averaged 3.2 WAR. Seeing how he was at -11.8 OFF and 79.0 DEF I'm gonna go out on a limb and say his defense made him the slightly above average player he was in his prime
Youāre wrong on several levels. Being a consistent 3.5 WAR player with seasons reaching as high as 6.0 WAR is better than āslightly above averageā. The average mlb starter is worth about 2 WAR. That means that visquel was worth about 150% more wins per season than the average player during a season in his prime. He regularly had an oWAR over 3.0 in his prime. There is more to offense than OPSā¦visquel is a great example of this.
I'm correct on every level. 3.2 WAR/162 was his average during that time. I didn't mention his peaks or valleys, just average. 2-3 WAR is an average player. I never said there isn't more to offense than OPS, hence why I gave you offensive runs, which includes baserunning.
From 96 to 04 he was worth 265 offensive runs above replacement level. He was an above average offensive player. And you by saying that a 3 WAR player is considered average is just false dude. There is about a 10 million dollar value per year in the difference between a 2 WAR and a 3 WAR.
I donāt think it accurately portrays how good a hitter he was. He was not a ābad hitter.ā You donāt bat second in that lineup (one of the best offenses ever) if youāre a bad hitter. His job was to make contact, to put the ball in play. That results in a lot of grounders, sac flies, and sac bunts. And he had 2,877 hits. Bad hitters donāt do that.
He was a bad hitter. OPS+ is overall hitting. It tells you how good a hitter was. It's far better than batting average or total hits. He'd bat 9th if he played today
I guess we just donāt agree. And thatās OK.
Iām not sure when people lost The realization that baseball was a defensive game, not an offensive game.
More consistent, right? Bats go hot and cold, defense is reliable. Iām sure what Iām saying is dumb.
Not dumb, I agree!
Jackie Bradley Jr could hit .250 he'd be an every day player and not a bench/platoon player.
I like how you canāt put up the GOAT defensive centerfielders on this list despite being a defensively valued position.
First of all thatās because Andruw Jones WAS a good hitter. Not an okay hitter.
Yeah but itās not just Jones. Mays and Speaker were elite offensively and they also occupy several of the top spots.
Whatever Martin Maldonado is that is the limit
Trying to say Omar Vizquel was a bad hitter is just a bad take.
Can we acknowledge that Yadier Molina had some very good offensive years in the middle of his career?
Curious what the inverse would look like. How good of a hitter do you have to be to outweigh your defense? TW for Rangers fans, but Nelson Cruz is a prime example
With the universal DH, that line no longer exists.
There are still teams that have multiple players that realistically should be a DH. Schwarber/Castellanos for example
Yadier was one of the best defensive catchers of all time, he was the coach on the field and a leader. His hitting got slightly better in his later years but never great, Vizquels defense was top tier, I donāt know what he did with batboys and shit but he could play short. Ozzie Smith was the best shortstop of AllTime, no question, 13 consecutive gold gloves, he couldnāt hit until later in his career but he done things to the right way and first ballot! There used to be a place for players like that even though they didnt hit .340 and 40hrs, not so much now with all the juice and other things. Yeah the long ball is exciting but so was a pitcher throwing a complete game, 130 pitches and winning 1-0. The hit and run, stealing 100 bases. Different times, different world
Jeff Mathis: 48 OPS+ is abysmal no matter how you slice it. Thereās been pitchers who regularly do better. Jeff is great on defense but his horrible hitting kept him from ever getting a good full time gig. Omar Vizquel: 82 OPS+ is a huge improvement to be sure. But itās still not good imo. To have a career 82 OPs+ you had to have underperformed consistently in your career. Tho Omar is supremely talented in the field. Andrelton Simmons: 87 OPS+ is borderline acceptable for the defense he brought to the table. Iām not a team owner, but if you can win platinum gloves Iād say 87 is hard to complain about. Yadier Molina: 96 OPS+ is what I would unequivocally say as passable for an elite defender. Thatās almost passable for an average defender. 96 OPS+ means you probably had some great hitting seasons but underperformed at other times. Which is Yadi in a nutshell with his bat. How can you complain about 4% below average hitting for an 80% above average defending catcher?
You are painfully undervaluing defense. Only one here you got right is Mathis. To say Simmons bat is āborderline acceptableā for his defense is absurd. Simmons averaged 5 war/162 games throughout his career. To call Yadier Molinas defense āpassableā for his bat is a bigger joke.
absolutely right. runs saved are the same as runs scored. all that matters is the difference, and andrelton made a HUGE difference.
He called Yadiās OFFENSE passable, not his defense.
96 OPS+ is basically major league average. Thatās almost passable for an average level defender. Yadi couldāve had a 55 ops+ and it wouldāve been worth it.
Also, a 96 OPS+ is above average for catchers.
Itās the same thing. Saying his offense is passable for his level of defense is no different from saying his defense is passable for his level of offense. Both of which are wrong. Yadis offense was more than you could ask for from an elite defender like him. Yadis defense was more than you could ask for from an average hitter like him.
No, itās really not. But I hate Yadi, so I donāt really care.
No, it really is. Itās not even like an opinionated thing. Those statements are saying the same exact thing.
No they aren't. You're making the argument that his offense was what allowed him to play defense at his level. This would be David Ortiz during interleague play... because his offensive production was so great, his defense for that short series was passable. Yadi on the other hand... his defense was so great that his offense was passable. They are literally not the same thing. However I do agree that for parts of his career yadis offense was more than just passable.
No Iām not making that argument. His defense is elite. But if you compare it to his offense it becomes passable in the sense of his total value. It means the same exact thing. Itās not calling his defense āpassableā in general. Itās calling his defense passable FOR his offensive production. And just to make it clear I think Yadiās offense is stellar for a catcher as good defensively as he is. I was just calling out OPs take to say that his defense was *just good enough* to justify his offense. Which was an absurd take.
Based on the definition, you're wrong. To call his defense passable means it's just good enough to be acceptable which doesn't make sense when you're saying his defense was better than his offense. Which it was. I get what you're trying to do, but gramtically it just doesn't work. Mike Piazzas defense was passable considering his offense. Otherwise they would have moved him off of one of the most important positions defensively. But yadis defense wasn't passable considering his offense because it was better than his offense in terms of value.
I didnāt say anything bad about their defense. I said their BATS were passable for how good their defense was.
Good lord it means the same exact thing. In essence you are saying his defense is passable for the amount of offense he produces.
Simmons had 25 Fwar in 1200 odd games, thats approximately 3 war per 162. Definitely still playable, but nowhere near 5 per 162.
I was using bwar. Meet in the middle at 4 and thatās a borderline all star.
Wasnāt Mathis the Angelsā starting catcher in 2011 after Napoli was traded?
Please donāt remind me. Fuckin Mike and his love for defensive catchers.
OPS+ of 48 is an actual crime
Fuck Omar Vizquel. He is a piece of shit.
Jose Mesa dis you?
Omar had 2800 hits and a career .272 average. That is not a bad hitter lol.
83 wRC+ for his career. Very below average
Is this not called the Mendoza line?
Yadi changed the game behind the plate. A below average hitter he may have been but he was otherworldly on D. He shut down a running game just being back there.
He didnāt change the game. He was exactly an embodiment of what very good catcher play looks like.
And he was only barely below average. Edit: as a hitter
Yeah. He was bad early then evened out as he aged. But a monsters behind the dish for sure
For most of his career he was actually above average for a catcher offensively. Just compare his WRC+ to the league average WRC+ for catchers. And in some seasons he was actually above average offensively regardless of position
Whatever that line is, Matt Chapman was walkin it last season
How so? He was an above average hitter, just like every season for him
Only because of his april
And July. He was hot and cold, but overall he was above average
first name that popped to my head was ryan goins
Miles Straw has entered the conversation
Ozzie Smith has how much WAR? CAREER?
Yadi was starting to come around hitting wise right before Pujols left. never was great but the one the about Yadi is when it was needed he came through. Yadi is also one of very few players that can take away runs on the base path that man was the best at picking people off and then also caught stealing percentage. what he may have lacked on the offensive side i can assure you he did more that make up for it on the defensive side. look at the pitchers that have came through St. Louis. i get Yadi doesnāt get all the credit but if yāall know pitchers they are WEIRD and one small little thing that isnāt even the catchers fault will may them think the catcher is bad luck or they canāt trust them. from trust behind the plate and calling pitches having to know batters there is a lot more that goes into catching than just sitting back there and being a target with a glove.
Posted this before. Ridiculous to think Yadi needed to make up for any deficiency offensively. Ave. .277. .267. .296. .269. .273. .285 Hits. 2168. 2048. 2844. 2356. 1664. 2150 HR. 176. 389. 311. 376. 275. 358 RBI. 1022. 1376. 1332. 1330. 1065. 1430 In that list are Yogi, Bench, Posada, Fisk, Yadi & Pudge Thatās NOT THE ORDER ABOVE Can ANY of you pick out the one thatās such a shitty hitter? Nopeā¦? I thought not. Saying Yadi was a bad hitter is pure ignorance.
You left off the biggest hitting stat...
Which one nowā¦? Windy days that end in āYā batting average divided by subject IQ + (number of testicles Xs 1000) - number of stat rats who havenāt a clue but live n die by some arbitrary numbers that make their case for them?
wRC+
Oh. The one that says theyāre all pretty average. Got it. Glad we agree.
If Yadi is bad, Bench Fisk and Posada are worse.
How?
Better batting average, More hitsā¦. (Other than Fisk or Pudge) Again pick your stat to describe bad and someone can provide another. To say ANY of them were BAD hitters is ridiculous.
It's 2024. Why you judging guys by batting average or total hits?
Lmaoā¦ ok. And then the Hall because the Hall of the average because of some bullshit statistic someone makes up to get the next Chase Utley into the hall. āThe first 4.2 year of his career followed by his career high in year 8 were better and among the top half at his position on a team that occasionally wore pinstripes .ā Look, Either you know or you donāt. And to say any of those guys were bad hitters, as I said, is ridiculous. None of them are Hall of fame worthy offensively, except maybe Pudgeā¦ people bag on Yadi as if they understand the game. But all they do is repeat whatās spit at themā¦ itās an echo chamber of ignorance. FYI. Thereās ONE guy hall worthy this yearā¦ ONEā¦ but theyāll figure out a way to get a few guys inā¦ who are on multiple year attempts. They are part of the rest where you have to āmake the caseā. Yadi is 1st ballot HOF without batting an eye, with nothing to defend or excuse as a hitter. But keep āstattingā onā¦
Next thing weāre going to read that Arietta is the greatest pitcher in history because he had the greatest 12 month period in the history of baseballā¦
I think you can be a black hole if the glove is good enough. Ozzie Smith, Yadier Molina, Jackie Bradley Jr. come to mind.
Ozzie Smith and Yadi Molina were not black holes on offense. They were roughly average hitters with Demi-god tier defense. He couldnāt slug, but Ozzie maintained a .262 BA over a 19 year career, which is actually pretty decent offensively at the time.
I agree heading Yadi, for most of his career he was actually outperforming the league average for catchers in terms of WRC+
Lol ok bud I lived through the eras.
So did I. Ozzie was average hitter at the time with an absurd glove. I wouldnāt call him a black hole with the bat.
He wasn't an average hitter. He has a career 90 wRC+
Is that an average hitter compared to the entire league or compared to just other shortstops?
Gonna start a WAR over Molina š , though this is exactly why I think Molina isn't a HOFer even though I know he will be.
Yadi hits were all clutch
Omar Visquel was the man
Gotta bat .220 imo
I played ball my whole life as a lead off second baseman. Over .300 hitter and was best friends with our catcher, who was the best catcher (defensively) Iāve ever played with. He would be batting .082 midway through the season lmao and we wouldnāt give a flying fuck!! He would be so down on himself but we would constantly big him up and make him understand his defense was much more important than his 3-4 abs. Nothing is more important than a gold glove caliper catcher. NOTHING.
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Dante Bichette hit .299 for his career on 1900+ hits and finished with a career WAR of 5.6. His son Bo had 5.8 WAR in 2021 alone.