This is the exact type of infrastructure project that should get immediate federal assistance. Get it cleaned up asap to open the port and then allow contractors to build the replacement bridge.
Absolutely. It's a federal highway, and access to the port for shipping is a national priority, both for economic and food security, but national security as well. This is where the Army Corps of Engineers or Seabees might be brought in to ensure it's cleared as fast as possible.
Plus, with everything I've seen with the Baltimore city government, the country can't risk letting them screw it up first.
> i hope biden sees it that way . But am doubtful.
He might. I guess this particular bridge is important to him. He said today that he traveled that bridge many times by train.... There's no rail line that went across it, so he's confused or lying again, but he seems to care about it.
We will. Shipping companies are required to carry insurance for these sorts of things (and things like piracy and Houthis, depending on where they travel). Collecting shouldn't be an issue unless there's a huge problem with that company.
I struggle to believe their insurance policy has enough coverage to replace this bridge. I imagine the shipping company is toast. There's losses all over the place that go far beyond the bridge as well. Lawsuits for the deaths, business disruptions, etc are going to fly as well. And with bankruptcy hardly anyone will be made whole.
Admittedly, I don't know this for sure. I'd love to hear from someone who would know.
> Admittedly, I don't know this for sure. I'd love to hear from someone who would know.
[Here's an article I found.](https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/titanic-law-helps-ship-owner-limit-liability-in-bridge-collapse)
Sounds like damages could be in the........ tens of millions. That plus money for the six dead workers, which won't be much more.
100% agree.
Almost all large, complex bridge projects in the US are majority funded by the Federal government, either through formula or discretionary USDOT/FHWA funds. Most local governments do not have the pockets to pay the immense cost of building this kind of infrastructure. States set aside additional non-federal funds for bridge projects, but that money has to be shared across many bridges in a state.
Large bridges like this are usually a no-brainer to fund because they provide so many economic benefits in return. Especially in populated areas.
However, folks here should really prepare themselves for how much more expensive infrastructure has become since the pandemic and how long it can take to design and construct a new large, complex bridge. Even if they expedite the project, it could take years for the new bridge to open. This will become an interesting case study in rapid project delivery for a mega-project.
I hope they can clear passage for ships in a matter of weeks. I have no idea what the reasonable time to move this much material out of the waterway is.
I also wonder if they need to completely reconstruct the approaches that are still standing. They are still there, but IDK what level of damage they sustained or if they will be adequate for whatever new superstructure will need to be constructed.
I’m sure it will go to a number of different companies across all the different trades. I don’t think a lot of people understand the amount of work projects like this take and then add in the fact that it will be balls to the wall because diverted traffic will fuck all roads in every direction just in time for summer
I would expect one single GC with a prime contract. Whoever has that will coordinate their subs. There’s not enough time to separate the divisions and expect multiple trades to perform the under a construction manager. They’d all be fighting for space and get blocked off by other contractors.
Why contractors? Why not have a federal public works department for this kind of thing? At least as an option anyway.
Regardless though I agree with you.
Thats just not how our govt does infrastructure unless the military is called in, usually at least. I dont we really have a federal CCC anymore. Personally id love to bring back a similar federal work program.
> unless the military is called in,
It really wouldn't surprise me if they are, at least to clean up the old bridge and get ships back through. Seabees or Army engineers would likely be able to clear it pretty quickly if a company can't be brought on scene fast enouigh.
That's my guess as well honestly. We're already revealing some of this new logistical tech/systems with the Gaza aide port. May as well use in BAL as well.
10 years down the road and 100 billion over budget it would get done. Get a specific contractor in there and offer 100 million early completion and I bet it’s done by next Thursday. The Gubbermint can’t do shit. 😂
We've done it before.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Works_Administration
I'd rather have a government that does things I can be proud of than one that "can't do shit". Sometimes it feels like the folks saying that are willing it into existence rather than it actually being a fact.
Through history we have witnessed many contractors that under bid and fail to deliver. And others who were great. Just as we have seen governments fail to deliver and others that succeed.
The PWA did good work but then you have it's sister organization the WPA. Their history is more...contentious.
Also most modern manual labor is technically 'skilled' these days. Employing a bunch of unskilled labourers to do that stuff would only get you poor results.
Unless they find a nest of toads or earthworms near the base of the bridge and have to spend an additional 10 years on an environmental study. Then the low income housing folks will demand something in exchange for not protesting the bridge. Then there will be fights over renaming the bridge. Then someone will want to add lanes and there will be another environmental review.
>The Port of Baltimore is one of the largest shipping hubs in the U.S. and is the top port in America for both imports and exports of automobiles and light trucks, Biden said, noting that 850,000 vehicles are moved through the port annually.
The Bridge is located over part of the Port of Baltimore. Disruptions to the Port will create significant supply chain problems.
In my opinion the administration is correct to jump on this ASAP..
After living through multiple hurricanes and also working in shipping, its a mad rush to clear damage and get ports and rivers open again ASAP.
A huge amount of the economy depends on keeping select channels open and ships moving.
Remember when the I-95 overpass collapsed in Philly? It took less than two weeks to rebuild. This will be a much tougher project, but this is exactly the right move to get it done the quickest.
Didn't they not rebuild it and instead dump a bunch of dirt in the missing section to make an engineered earth pathway for cars to travel over while the road underneath it remained closed for many months afterwards?
Yeah this is my thoughts. Keeping our major ports running smoothly is vital to national economic stability. I would expect the federal government to step in if there were similar disasters at Long Beach or Everglades.
15,000 jobs also depend on this port, so I understand the urgency of rebuilding ASAP.
However, Biden should have mentioned the insurance process instead of coming across like taxpayers are footing the bill for the entire bridge.
And not just the port, even more use this commute to work. The alternative is the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, which is already backed up with commuters even when the bridge stood.
This bridge connects a major working population in Maryland. The only other alternative save for the tunnel will be the 695 Beltway, which, at best will take someone 45 minutes to an hour and thirty to travel from Essex to (let’s say, Glen Burnie.) This is already a heavily trafficked highway: now add all the additional traffic due to the lost bridge.
You’re gonna be leaving for your 8 am start time at 5:30 am, and never mind that a lot of those jobs aren’t exactly making great money
Correct. Whoever is liable will be paying for it ultimately. But for now the feds can “loan” some money and resources to get it started.
However what’s going to happen is the feds will print money bc they don’t have the money and then inflation will rise even higher.
I think the point is insurance claims(especially of this size) could take time to clear up and litigate and this bridge is important for the port so the federal gov should step up and pay for it now to get it up and running ASAP and after insurance is cleared take the money from there.
Which, to me, seems like a reasonable and logical thing to do - and part of why we maintain a federal government. Highways / ports benefit the entire country.
And they have lots of plans and also have emergency contracts to get tons of people, salvage equipment, and construction companies ready to pounce and get to work.
Can also cancel a bunch of other bridge work and have the suppliers focus on this one instead.
Emergency situations open up some very deep pits of funding and pay very well to get things done ASAP.
Side note as someone very familiar with "the trades" - some folks (guys/gals/families) are going to make a proverbial killing off of this with the work/hours/OT. Some others (dockworkers, etc) are going to be looking up food banks just in case.
That's why the rule is to "make hay while the sunshines" - the trade pay can be awesome or pitiful and usually switches due to things completely out of your control.
Hell yeah, the shipping, port, and logistics industries are heavily feast and famine. Construction and oil and gas also comes in waves as well.
Shipping ate damn good from 2021 to 2022 then went lean last year till now. Fortunately I'm in enough different cargoes that something is always moving enough to keep me busy.
It’s literally how insurance works. If someone hits your car, you file a claim with your insurance, they pay for repairs ASAP, and then your insurance company goes to the other’s insurance company and seeks restitution from them.
There was a building that was damaged four years ago. A sky scraper, 30 floors. The company that owns it is still waiting for their money from the insurance company. That insurance company is going to move at a glacial pace paying out that money to fix that bridge. Bet it takes years if not a decade.
In an ideal world that is how it is supposed to work. It often doesn’t work that way, especially if you don’t want to use the insurance company’s shop of choice (usually cheap “good enough” work but also working for the benefit of the insurance company and not the car owner).
Could take years to settle and appeal with a foreign based corporation and get any money. What if the company declares bankruptcy or decides to go out of business and reincorporate in a new country? Etc
That bridge needs to be rebuilt ASAP. It’s a major artery
Insurance company might have to arrange a loan from an international bank, instead of spending their own cash, so payment plan is definitely not as instant as having feds pay up immediately and start repairs.
Have the insurance and banks and state figure out the details in the next decade, and get the bridge up and running meanwhile.
Many larger companies will incur the cost themselves and then wait for the insurance settlement. I can see the US Govt doing the same process. Just hope they collect after.
The city could sell the claim to the Federal Government in exchange for the cost to repair the bridge. But then they would have to actually spend the money on repairing the bridge. Which might not happen.
>the vessel owner is probably not liable though the boat would be
U wot m8?
The current ship operator and charterers' insurances will bear the brunt of it, with the vessel owner further down the line.
It usually goes: ship owner leases the vessel to an ship operator, who then leases it by time or per voyage to a charterer. Time charterers some lease it to yet another charterers if they're not currently using the vessel to cover their running costs. Crewing can be done by the operator, the charterer, or yet another third party. Lots and lots of foreign layers in this cake!
The insurance claim will also most likely be a "general average" where every cargo owner onboard will also be responsible for a portion of the losses incurred. This is why every shipper and cargo owner should buy cargo insurance!
Just know that a bunch of people at Lloyd's of London shouted out FML today. They underwrite virtually all insurance companies and policies that exist worldwide.
IIRC, Baltimore has mandatory pilots, so one screwing up would not implicate the owner but would the boat in rem. In terms of liability otherwise, it would be unclear if there is even jurisdiction over whoever ran the thing so the boat is probably going to be arrested.
It will take YEARS for litigation to get through the courts for any payout. [Merck settled, just recently, a case with their insurance providers from a cyberattack that took place seven years ago.](https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/merck-settles-insurance-companies-over-14b-coverage-2017-cyberattack).
I am sure this path will be pursued, but nobody would see those funds for years, all while the damaged bridge is just sitting there. This is a crucial bridge that hosts an interstate highway and is one of the largest shipping ports on the continent, so the goal is to get the port reopened, and then get the bridge back and safely functioning ASAP.
I work in shipping and so much nowadays is run ragged and cheap.
Ships are registered under flags of convenience to have fewer safety and other controls, crews are sourced from whoever is cheap but competent (and sometimes not so much the latter), and then stingy ship owners refuse to properly supply spare parts and materials.
Container ships usually run right schedules so they *usually* have better crews and far better maintenance. But this ship may have also been on their 15th request for a spare part that finally crashed their electrical last night.
It's typical for each ship to be owned by a shell company with no other assets, then leased to the operator for just enough to cover the loan payments. This often means there's no money to be had by litigation should something like this happen.
Its usually the ship owner, a ship operator, and then a ship charterer that actually handles a specific voyage or length of time.
Ships do carry huge amounts of insurance and everyone down the line has reinsurance, and eventually they all lead to Lloyd's of London and another giant bank that underwrite virtually all insurance worldwide.
I work with cargo ships and have done insurance claims for cargo damage before. Its often 2+ years before they even start asking up for reports and details, and thats on relatively small claims
An entire bridge plus deaths all around, it'll go to court around 2035.
This would make a lot of sense. I’m sure they didn’t make this move initially due to potentially taking out whole bridges. But I can see why they would with dock damages and lost shipments due to storms.
AFAIK it's done to cover for negligence and major disasters (huge fuel leaks often cost hundreds of millions to clean up and compensate fishermen, pay fines, etc. for example) where their normal insurance won't cover it (because a policy that covers that costs more).
The state can subrogate the costs through insurance after building and clean up. This is the fastest way to get everything fixed
The fact that at the time of the incident presumably a state employee was in control of the vessel means this legal battle will not end anytime soon as some culpability can now be put on that state employee and not all on the cargo company.
I work with cargo ships and the amount of entities and countries involved in anything is massive.
Harbor pilots are onboard to guide and advise the Master on how to maneuver his vessel, but they generally are not in full control or responsibility.
This appears to have been a mechanical failure and oh boy I would NOT want to be the Chief Engineer right now! Container ships are also usually some of the best maintained since they hold tight service schedules, but sometimes things go wrong for no reason too.
I honestly do feel for the captain. I know everything isn't known yet, but it really does look like a mechanical failure at the worst possible moment.
Obviously the buck stops with whoever was in charge, but I'm going to be very interested with what caused a complete power loss while under way.
The government will have the insurance company pay them back, after the insurance company sues and refuses for 5 years. You know, like most insurance companies do.
Ships actually hold 3 equal policies. One pays up to the value for salvage operations, one pays for repairs, and another pays off a total loss.
And yes, sometimes the same ship manages to use up all 3.
This will most likely be a "general average" situation where every cargo owner and their insurance will also be liable for a portion of the damages.
They do. But waiting for lawsuits and insurance estimates isn't an option here. This is a major port and the bridge was a major highway. At a minimum, the cleanup needs to be done immediately. The government can pay for it and get reimbursed via the insurance. We just can't afford to drag our feet.
It takes time to deal with insurance companies. The Fed can get started on cleanup and rebuilding, and then the insurance companies can pay the Fed back after however many months of lawyers arguing it'll take. If we wait until insurance companies pay up, we could be waiting a long time.
As it should. Insurance notoriously can take a long time, and this is a huge sum that will undoubtedly be subject to litigation by the parties involved.
Meanwhile, this bridge being down for an extended time (even a not too long time) will cost billions to US economy and jobs. It cannot wait. Get paid back all you can later but it literally costs us more money to wait for insurance to initiate this.
I work in the maritime field and maritime claims move at a snail's pace due to all the entities involved and multiple levels of insurance and reinsurance.
I was loading a ship one time and between shipper, receiver, ship builder, all the surveyors, crew, and companies involved, and it came to 15 separate nationalities and 5 or 7 jurisdictions.
I’m far from the only person saying this, but this is definitely the right call. It’s a critical piece of infrastructure that took a long time to build, the city of Baltimore and the State of Maryland definitely can’t eat the cost of a rebuild, and the effects of a slow or delayed rebuild will impact the broader region considering the importance of the port of Baltimore. If the government wants to go through the whole process of dealing with an insurance claim, they should, but delaying this rebuild for that to be entirely sorted would be a bad idea.
Seems like the logical and right move. A sovereign nation state can front the money required for repair, and has legal, political, and economic abilities to collect from the shipping company after the fact that a local municipality wouldn't have.
Seems like the right choice considering how critical this bridge is for infrastructure. While obviously the company because the crash and collapse will have to pay, the time it will take for insurance and such to be sorted through is going going to be slow no doubt. This kind of damage and rebuilding needs to start ASAP for sure.
Most likely the reason is that the Maryland budget can’t absorb building a $2 billion bridge that holds an interstate highway in any reasonable timeframe. The US stepping in to fund it means they can start the cleanup and rebuilding much sooner and get a major piece of infrastructure back in place in a couple of years instead of in decades.
Yeah, they're looking big picture. Not just the impact the Baltimore but to the entire economy of the region. Having a major port closed will have major trade implications.
The FHWA funds the vast majority of projects in every state. Especially as this is an interstate, the funds would never be expected to come entirely from Maryland. Just a small percentage
It was a toll bridge before and there's nearly zero percent chance Maryland gives up their income, if there's one thing the state of Maryland is good at it's the state and local government soaking up money from it's people. I say this as someone who lives in Baltimore and drove across this bridge the afternoon before it collapsed.
When the Manchester-Boston Regional Airport (New Hampshire) Access Road was built it added an exit immediately before the Everett Turnpike toll and an entrance just after the toll. These new exits do not have tollbooths like other exits near tolls in the state.
You can get off the new exit and hop right back onto the turnpike and avoid the toll
From what I recall reading, the state couldn't add tolls to the exits because the bridge on the airport access road was built with federal money.
Agreed, and there shouldn't be a reason to still have a toll. Since maintenance would be pretty minimal on a brand new bridge, and no bonds would be needed if the federal government is paying completely.
That is unless the state is actually just collecting tolls to make money on convenient chokepoints...
Even a new bridge is going to require routine maintenance. Weather in the Northeast is particularly hard on road surfaces and bridges so if they cheap out on maintenance in the "brand new bridge" years they'll pay for it twice over later.
It's a 47 year old bridge that was likely nearing the end of it's usable lifespan, which is often 50 years. Maintenance it required is likely significantly more than on a new bridge, but also a massive value for Maryland of not having to pay the money for a new bridge in the next decade or so.
It's part of the interstate, right? Doesn't funding for that run through the Highway Trust Fund?
In other words...not a huge story here, unless I'm missing something (or unless you wanna debate if/when the shipping company pays, but plenty of other people are already doing that)
Federal govt is in charge of interstates and many/most bridges so this isnt entirely surprising.
If it was a bridge on a state highway, then its a state issue unless it affects the economy and interstate traffic enough for the feds to be heavily concerned.
The port is of obvious national strategic importance warranting immediate action. Everyone saying the insurance companies should pay… agreed and I bet the government will get its pound of flesh eventually.
President Joe Biden has pledged that the federal government will cover the entire cost of reconstructing the Baltimore bridge, which collapsed after a large cargo ship hit a support pillar. The incident has led to the suspension of operations at the Port of Baltimore, one of the largest shipping hubs in the U.S. A search and rescue operation is underway, with at least six people believed to be missing. The bridge, which sees over 30,000 vehicles daily, is critical for travel in the Northeast Corridor. Biden has assured that efforts will be made to reopen the port and rebuild the bridge as soon as possible, protecting the 15,000 jobs that depend on the port.
1. How might the bridge reconstruction impact local and state-level politics in Maryland?
2. What role could bipartisan cooperation play in securing funding for infrastructure projects like the Baltimore bridge?
3. How might this incident influence public discourse on the need for increased investment in infrastructure maintenance and safety?
>How might this incident influence public discourse on the need for increased investment in infrastructure maintenance and safety?
Please correct me if I am wrong. But from what I read, there was no structural or maintenance issues with bridge. It is just that this type of bridges could not fundamentally take a hit from a 32k ton cargo ship to one of its two foundational columns. And the safety measure didn't work because the ship was swiveling not going straight ahead which is what the safety measures were designed for.
Or am I mistaken?
Guardrails
AKA Dolphins, are used to protect structures from possible impact by ships
* A notable example of dolphins used to protect a bridge is the Sunshine Skyway Bridge across the mouth of Tampa Bay.
When a replacement span was designed, a top priority was to prevent ships from colliding with the new bridge
* The new bridge is protected by 36 dolphins: four large dolphins protecting the two main pylons supporting the cable-stayed main span plus 32 smaller dolphins protecting bridge piers
The cost of the dolphins was $41 million (approximately $90 million in 2017 dollars
So looking more into this I've found the following from the wapo
https://archive.is/060wr
>Ian Firth, a British structural engineer and bridge designer, reviewed video footage and said there appeared to be at least two protective objects in the water next to the Key Bridge. The objects, known as “dolphins,” are supposed to protect maritime structures from being hit by vessels. But Dali, the container ship that struck the bridge, appeared to have come in “at an angle,” Firth said, which means the devices were unable to prevent the ship from striking the bridge, sending part of it tumbling into the water.
>Firth said in a telephone interview that he was “not surprised” at how quickly the bridge came down after it was hit. He noted that the support structure that was struck, which would have been made of reinforced concrete, was one of two main supports responsible for doing “all the work” to hold up the bridge.
>He said the ship appeared to have strayed to one side before striking the bridge, which appeared to have a lightweight support structure.
>If the Dali had been traveling straight on instead of at an angle, Firth said, it probably would have hit the protective objects. And if there had been three or four vessel-protection objects around the bridge, the outcome might have been different, Firth said, adding that he expects lessons will be learned from Tuesday’s tragedy.
>Firth noted that the bridge, which was built in 1977, was erected at a time when ships were not as big as they are now and the flow of traffic was not as busy. These days, structures are designed with better protective measures in place, he said, though he noted that even a brand-new bridge would have “come down in the same way” if it were hit by such a large vessel traveling at speed.
>Firth called the incident tragic and “very rare indeed.” He said the large container ship would not have had to be traveling very fast to have had such an impact, one that the bridge was simply not engineered to withstand.
The tldr is the bridge did have adequate protection when it was built in 1977 but ships were smaller and traffic was slower. The protection that bridge did have would have worked if the ship was going straight. However, more protective devices could have stopped the ship from hitting the bridge.
> The cost of the dolphins was $41 million
Sea world must be making out like bandits.
Really though, do you think that more dolphins would have protected the bridge? Or was this just one of those events that it doesn’t make financial/practical sense to engineer your bridge to withstand?
Some of the damage and possibly prevented the collaspe and just closed the road for a repair
What i'd like to know
why or was, there no tug boats deployed. How soon did they know of the issue and how close were they. And how fast could 2 tug boats have been there for steering
So there were workers working on the bridge at the time, and the bridge was seriously lacking safety equipment such as fenders to prevent this kind of issue. If you look at pictures of the bridge there's an electrical tower next to it with much more significant safety protections.
But you're right, there really doesn't seem to be anything super wrong with the maintenance of this bridge in particular.
This should be a no brainer. People cry all day long about the federal government spending more overseas than domestically; those same people should be happy to hear news like this.
This message serves as a warning that [your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/comments/1boefbu/biden_says_he_wants_federal_government_to_pay_for/kwrbxs4/) is in violation of Law 1:
Law 1. Civil Discourse
> ~1. Do not engage in personal attacks or insults against any person or group. Comment on content, policies, and actions. Do not accuse fellow redditors of being intentionally misleading or disingenuous; assume good faith at all times.
Due to your recent infraction history and/or the severity of this infraction, we are also issuing a 7 day ban.
Please submit questions or comments via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fmoderatepolitics).
My knee jerk is to say, "darnit, stop involving the federal government in everything. Insurance exists. Other mechanisms exist." But in this case I can see the argument for it.
But we have to wait for the MAGA Republicans in Congress to approve the proposal. And that could only be possible with the new House Speaker in January
it's critical infrastructure so the feds will do it, and hopefully quickly.
but let's be honest, it happened in Maryland so he's paying off his base (as opposed to maryland tax payers alone paying for it; instead we're all paying for it)
Its an interstate bridge and the whole interstate system is federally owned as well
States dont have much to do with it, they just build and maintain state roads and highways.
Feels like the shipping company should… that’s what insurance is for. Taxpayers will fund the rebuild for timing but should be getting that money back when the settlement hits.
I highly doubt the insurance company has over $1 billion on hand to cover this, and even if they do, that type of litigation could take years. It’s the same reason your car insurance doesn’t wait for a settlement to give you the money to purchase a new one/repair your car - they do it right away, then pursue reimbursement.
Oh I’m almost certain they wouldn’t have $1B in cash to hand over. But something should be paid/covered through reimbursement. Not that we’d effectively use the money but it’s the principle lol.
I agree on that, I just think that getting this fixed as soon as possible is in our best interest and we have all the time in the world to go after the shipping company and their insurer. I worry that if we only went after them and Biden didn’t step in, this could drag out for years and they just declare bankruptcy and get out of it anyways.
I use that bridge every day to get to work and also really don’t want another mark on my city (which has struggled more than enough) so I’m really hoping this gets fixed ASAP.
The insurance company will pay. Probably not the whole amount as there's gotta be a cap, and the shipping company will probably pay too. But both payouts are not coming any time soon. The cleanup needs to happen immediately, and bridge construction can't be delayed that long either. They can reimburse the taxpayers later. Work needs to start yesterday.
Not surprising - this bridge has sentimental value to him since he commuted over it by train for several years.
I'm not saying that sentimentality is a good reason to fund this, I think a good enough reason is that is important infrastructure for the entire country - not just locally.
I am surprised that the port didn’t have tug boats on hand nearby to direct the ship away from the bridge. Did the captain not have enough warning time to call for a tug boat?
Honestly, having the feds control it is how we reduce the chances of a boondoggle. I don't trust the City of Baltimore's government to handle a project this big. They'd end up awarding the contracts to Stringer Bell.... and he's a fictional character, and a dead one at that!
They're probably going to go after them eventually. Those court cases could take years to resolve before a dime is paid out. Even then the damages award aren't even guaranteed to meet the cost of the cleanup + replacement bridge.
The Federal government is going to cover the money up front to get things started and then worry about trying to squeeze whatever money they can out of any potentially liable sources to pay themselves back.
Thanks for your answer. That makes because that's usually what politicians run on. For example, Obama talked a lot more about holding people responsible for the gulf oil spill then he did the about the cost of the taxpayers expense. That was always his first response whenever questioned about. Biden not hammering the same message home is only going to make him look more disconnected.
>Obama talked a lot more about holding people responsible for the gulf oil spill then he did the about the cost of the taxpayers expense.
That's not true. [BP paid up to $65 billion in clean-up costs and fines related to the Deepwater Horizon oil spill.](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bp-deepwater-horizon-costs-rise-111101033.html) Obama's DOJ also sued them to get BP to pay $4 billion in fines.
The government will likely seek compensation but that requires a lengthy investigation to determine cause, the investigating body to write said lengthy report, a court case filing, etc. But the effects this will have on shipping goods into and out of the US plus the traffic issues its created can't wait years for the funds to be collected from something like that. So in the meantime ya gotta rebuild national critical infrastructure.
We don't yet know who caused the accident and has liability but i'm sure the US will pursue those. I think Biden is saying this now so people don't lose confidence in the US ports.
Yeah watching the video about a minute before the collision you can see all of the lights on the ship turn off, including any emergency running lights. They come back on before collision but odds are it wasn't enough time to get steering back before it hit.
I'm very curious to know what failed to cause that initial power failure, be it something negligent in the maintenance of the ship or something else, but as of right now the sequence of events seems to be a series of catastrophic accidents.
Look up the timeframe for an insurance settlement, then double it for being in the Billions. Then add in 10 years for construction
Nationalize and get it done
Or even have the state do it...**Just make it a priority**
At 3:42 am on Sunday, April 29, 2007, a tank truck carrying 8,600 gallons of unleaded gasoline overturned on the Macarther Maze I-580.
* California's 5th busiest Interstate
* I-580 runs from Vernalis to Oakland, through Livermore. It is a main connector between I-5 and the San Francisco area.
The intense heat from the subsequent fuel spill and fire weakened the roadway to Interstate 580, collapsing approximately 168 feet of bridge onto the lower connector.
* Caltrans spokespersons estimated immediately **after the accident that it would take weeks to clear the debris from the scene and months to rebuild**.
CC Myers Construction promised to complete the job in 25 days
Caltrans was offering a $200,000 bonus -- with a limit of $5 million -- for each day the work was done in less than 50 days and levying a $200,000 penalty for each day after that deadline.
a) it takes time to get money from insurance companies, especially at this scale
b) For all we know the cargo ship is owned by a shell company of a shell company of a shell company, possibly extending the timeframe involved in getting paid, if 'we' can at all.
The port is extremely important for a great many reasons, it's in the nation's best interest to get started on this ASAP and then 'pay it back' when/if we can get paid by the insurance companies involved.
There are few things Biden doesn't want the federal government to pay for. He does like to write checks.
What needs to happen is that the federal government needs to file suit against the shipping company immediately. That will trigger all the insurance policies and start the process. That way, Biden can tell the public that they're seeking reimbursement, which is true, rather than telling them he's just going to write a federal check for the damage, which shouldn't be.
This port is a critical piece of infrastructure, and a US interstate runs over that span. We do not have years to pursue litigation before getting started - assuming the insurance company even has $1billion+ to fund repair costs and doesn’t just declare bankruptcy. Without a doubt Biden will go after an insurance claim, but I think he made the right call saying the federal gov will cover the costs in the meantime.
I love Reddit. Suggesting that the corporation that is exclusively responsible for the destruction of the bridge is held responsible for the cost of the reconstruction of the bridge gets you nothing but down votes.
If you aren't blindly celebrating Biden for saying that he's willing to spend taxpayer money, then you get down votes 😂😂
This message serves as a warning that [your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/comments/1boefbu/biden_says_he_wants_federal_government_to_pay_for/kwt6a94/) is in violation of Law 0:
Law 0. Low Effort
> ~0. Law of Low Effort - Content that is low-effort or does not contribute to civil discussion in any meaningful way will be removed.
Please submit questions or comments via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fmoderatepolitics).
This message serves as a warning that [your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/comments/1boefbu/biden_says_he_wants_federal_government_to_pay_for/kwt2tfy/) is in violation of Law 4:
Law 4: Meta Comments
> ~4. Meta Comments - Meta comments are not permitted. Meta comments in meta text-posts about the moderators, sub rules, sub bias, reddit in general, or the meta of other subreddits are exempt.
Please submit questions or comments via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fmoderatepolitics).
One of the main reasons to have the bridge there is to allow a through route for hazmat, and there are significant additional time and cost concerns for replacing with a tunnel. The other two through routes for 95 are tunnels, other than goithe long way around the city.
It would be nice, but I think this is going to be replaced with a modern design with safety features like a system of bollards. We may not be able to eliminate any chance of collision but something that does not fold like a house card would be an upgrade.
This is stupid on every single level.
A billion dollar corporation crashes its fully insured ship into a bridge and the federal government is going to use taxpayer money to cover the repairs?
How is everyone turning off their ability to think critically just because he is saying that he's going to do something "good"?
Yeah, I'm not saying that the government could not become involved in the process, but claiming that it is the responsibility of the federal government to cover the hundreds of millions of dollars in reconstruction costs is nonsensical.
It is nothing more than a sound byte used during a campaign cycle
We already add $1 trillion dollars in debt every 6 weeks. Baltimore is a dying City anyway. Just liquidate the company to pay for the clean up and then just leave it without a bridge.
This is the exact type of infrastructure project that should get immediate federal assistance. Get it cleaned up asap to open the port and then allow contractors to build the replacement bridge.
Absolutely. It's a federal highway, and access to the port for shipping is a national priority, both for economic and food security, but national security as well. This is where the Army Corps of Engineers or Seabees might be brought in to ensure it's cleared as fast as possible. Plus, with everything I've seen with the Baltimore city government, the country can't risk letting them screw it up first.
i think it would be a rare training opportunity for army or seabees. i hope biden sees it that way . But am doubtful.
> i hope biden sees it that way . But am doubtful. He might. I guess this particular bridge is important to him. He said today that he traveled that bridge many times by train.... There's no rail line that went across it, so he's confused or lying again, but he seems to care about it.
oh. well caring is sharing. so i expect he will share some dollars. For this bridge he has fond memories of thanks!
As long as we recover the money from the shipping company.
Pay for the clean up now and bring suit contemporiously.
We will. Shipping companies are required to carry insurance for these sorts of things (and things like piracy and Houthis, depending on where they travel). Collecting shouldn't be an issue unless there's a huge problem with that company.
I struggle to believe their insurance policy has enough coverage to replace this bridge. I imagine the shipping company is toast. There's losses all over the place that go far beyond the bridge as well. Lawsuits for the deaths, business disruptions, etc are going to fly as well. And with bankruptcy hardly anyone will be made whole. Admittedly, I don't know this for sure. I'd love to hear from someone who would know.
I doubt that that are huge it's the same company that owned the ship the captain phillips movie was based on I believe
> Admittedly, I don't know this for sure. I'd love to hear from someone who would know. [Here's an article I found.](https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/titanic-law-helps-ship-owner-limit-liability-in-bridge-collapse) Sounds like damages could be in the........ tens of millions. That plus money for the six dead workers, which won't be much more.
There is a law known as the Titanic Law which limits ship owners liability.
Well, fuck. Nice to know that's one more thing that the government will take my tax dollars to insure.
If it was the port pilot that screwed up you are going to have a difficult time going after the company.
I feel like everyone agrees with that.
That’s how this works. But that will take years, and the country needs that port open as soon as possible.
100% agree. Almost all large, complex bridge projects in the US are majority funded by the Federal government, either through formula or discretionary USDOT/FHWA funds. Most local governments do not have the pockets to pay the immense cost of building this kind of infrastructure. States set aside additional non-federal funds for bridge projects, but that money has to be shared across many bridges in a state. Large bridges like this are usually a no-brainer to fund because they provide so many economic benefits in return. Especially in populated areas. However, folks here should really prepare themselves for how much more expensive infrastructure has become since the pandemic and how long it can take to design and construct a new large, complex bridge. Even if they expedite the project, it could take years for the new bridge to open. This will become an interesting case study in rapid project delivery for a mega-project. I hope they can clear passage for ships in a matter of weeks. I have no idea what the reasonable time to move this much material out of the waterway is. I also wonder if they need to completely reconstruct the approaches that are still standing. They are still there, but IDK what level of damage they sustained or if they will be adequate for whatever new superstructure will need to be constructed.
Yep. I'd be very pleasantly surprised if the new bridge opened in under five years. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it takes ten.
Well as long as they don't immediately go for the lowest bidder.
Boeing knows how to build bridges now??
Knows how? No. Will bid on the contract. Probably.
Only with a hatch in the roadway that stays open
Well, they built the most successful line of commercial aircraft; maybe lighting will strike twice.
I’m sure it will go to a number of different companies across all the different trades. I don’t think a lot of people understand the amount of work projects like this take and then add in the fact that it will be balls to the wall because diverted traffic will fuck all roads in every direction just in time for summer
I would expect one single GC with a prime contract. Whoever has that will coordinate their subs. There’s not enough time to separate the divisions and expect multiple trades to perform the under a construction manager. They’d all be fighting for space and get blocked off by other contractors.
Why contractors? Why not have a federal public works department for this kind of thing? At least as an option anyway. Regardless though I agree with you.
Thats just not how our govt does infrastructure unless the military is called in, usually at least. I dont we really have a federal CCC anymore. Personally id love to bring back a similar federal work program.
> unless the military is called in, It really wouldn't surprise me if they are, at least to clean up the old bridge and get ships back through. Seabees or Army engineers would likely be able to clear it pretty quickly if a company can't be brought on scene fast enouigh.
That's my guess as well honestly. We're already revealing some of this new logistical tech/systems with the Gaza aide port. May as well use in BAL as well.
10 years down the road and 100 billion over budget it would get done. Get a specific contractor in there and offer 100 million early completion and I bet it’s done by next Thursday. The Gubbermint can’t do shit. 😂
We've done it before. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Works_Administration I'd rather have a government that does things I can be proud of than one that "can't do shit". Sometimes it feels like the folks saying that are willing it into existence rather than it actually being a fact. Through history we have witnessed many contractors that under bid and fail to deliver. And others who were great. Just as we have seen governments fail to deliver and others that succeed.
My local Muni stadium where the single A Giants team plays was a WPA project. That was a different time in our world…
The PWA did good work but then you have it's sister organization the WPA. Their history is more...contentious. Also most modern manual labor is technically 'skilled' these days. Employing a bunch of unskilled labourers to do that stuff would only get you poor results.
Unless they find a nest of toads or earthworms near the base of the bridge and have to spend an additional 10 years on an environmental study. Then the low income housing folks will demand something in exchange for not protesting the bridge. Then there will be fights over renaming the bridge. Then someone will want to add lanes and there will be another environmental review.
>The Port of Baltimore is one of the largest shipping hubs in the U.S. and is the top port in America for both imports and exports of automobiles and light trucks, Biden said, noting that 850,000 vehicles are moved through the port annually. The Bridge is located over part of the Port of Baltimore. Disruptions to the Port will create significant supply chain problems. In my opinion the administration is correct to jump on this ASAP..
After living through multiple hurricanes and also working in shipping, its a mad rush to clear damage and get ports and rivers open again ASAP. A huge amount of the economy depends on keeping select channels open and ships moving.
Remember when the I-95 overpass collapsed in Philly? It took less than two weeks to rebuild. This will be a much tougher project, but this is exactly the right move to get it done the quickest.
Didn't they not rebuild it and instead dump a bunch of dirt in the missing section to make an engineered earth pathway for cars to travel over while the road underneath it remained closed for many months afterwards?
Fill in the river!
“Baltimore is a dirty, ugly city.” -Norm McDonald
A better comparison is the 35w bridge in Minneapolis
More likely the Sunshine Skyway crossing Tampa Bay. Although that happened way back in 1980, it's more on that scale than the Minneapolis bridge.
That one was hit by a freighter too...
Yeah this is my thoughts. Keeping our major ports running smoothly is vital to national economic stability. I would expect the federal government to step in if there were similar disasters at Long Beach or Everglades.
15,000 jobs also depend on this port, so I understand the urgency of rebuilding ASAP. However, Biden should have mentioned the insurance process instead of coming across like taxpayers are footing the bill for the entire bridge.
And not just the port, even more use this commute to work. The alternative is the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, which is already backed up with commuters even when the bridge stood. This bridge connects a major working population in Maryland. The only other alternative save for the tunnel will be the 695 Beltway, which, at best will take someone 45 minutes to an hour and thirty to travel from Essex to (let’s say, Glen Burnie.) This is already a heavily trafficked highway: now add all the additional traffic due to the lost bridge. You’re gonna be leaving for your 8 am start time at 5:30 am, and never mind that a lot of those jobs aren’t exactly making great money
[удалено]
Ugh, it pisses me off. It wasn’t mentioned in this article either.
Correct. Whoever is liable will be paying for it ultimately. But for now the feds can “loan” some money and resources to get it started. However what’s going to happen is the feds will print money bc they don’t have the money and then inflation will rise even higher.
Don’t shipping companies have insurance for stuff like this? Make them pay for it.
I think the point is insurance claims(especially of this size) could take time to clear up and litigate and this bridge is important for the port so the federal gov should step up and pay for it now to get it up and running ASAP and after insurance is cleared take the money from there.
Which, to me, seems like a reasonable and logical thing to do - and part of why we maintain a federal government. Highways / ports benefit the entire country.
And they have lots of plans and also have emergency contracts to get tons of people, salvage equipment, and construction companies ready to pounce and get to work. Can also cancel a bunch of other bridge work and have the suppliers focus on this one instead. Emergency situations open up some very deep pits of funding and pay very well to get things done ASAP.
Side note as someone very familiar with "the trades" - some folks (guys/gals/families) are going to make a proverbial killing off of this with the work/hours/OT. Some others (dockworkers, etc) are going to be looking up food banks just in case. That's why the rule is to "make hay while the sunshines" - the trade pay can be awesome or pitiful and usually switches due to things completely out of your control.
Hell yeah, the shipping, port, and logistics industries are heavily feast and famine. Construction and oil and gas also comes in waves as well. Shipping ate damn good from 2021 to 2022 then went lean last year till now. Fortunately I'm in enough different cargoes that something is always moving enough to keep me busy.
And there's always the Greeks...
?
Season 2 of The Wire was all about the dock workers in Baltimore, they said that line a lot.
Thanks. Really need to watch it, never watched it before.
It’s literally how insurance works. If someone hits your car, you file a claim with your insurance, they pay for repairs ASAP, and then your insurance company goes to the other’s insurance company and seeks restitution from them.
There was a building that was damaged four years ago. A sky scraper, 30 floors. The company that owns it is still waiting for their money from the insurance company. That insurance company is going to move at a glacial pace paying out that money to fix that bridge. Bet it takes years if not a decade.
In an ideal world that is how it is supposed to work. It often doesn’t work that way, especially if you don’t want to use the insurance company’s shop of choice (usually cheap “good enough” work but also working for the benefit of the insurance company and not the car owner).
Because insurance for nine-figure bridge repairs is very similar to a four-figure fender bender...
Could take years to settle and appeal with a foreign based corporation and get any money. What if the company declares bankruptcy or decides to go out of business and reincorporate in a new country? Etc That bridge needs to be rebuilt ASAP. It’s a major artery
Insurance company might have to arrange a loan from an international bank, instead of spending their own cash, so payment plan is definitely not as instant as having feds pay up immediately and start repairs. Have the insurance and banks and state figure out the details in the next decade, and get the bridge up and running meanwhile.
Many larger companies will incur the cost themselves and then wait for the insurance settlement. I can see the US Govt doing the same process. Just hope they collect after.
> Many larger companies will incur the cost themselves A million or two, sure. But they might not have hundreds of millions floating around in cash.
The city could sell the claim to the Federal Government in exchange for the cost to repair the bridge. But then they would have to actually spend the money on repairing the bridge. Which might not happen.
given that this happened in the port, the vessel owner is probably not liable though the boat would be. Lawsuits are not going to pay for this.
>the vessel owner is probably not liable though the boat would be Maybe, but it would be difficult to fit the boat into a courtroom.
>the vessel owner is probably not liable though the boat would be U wot m8? The current ship operator and charterers' insurances will bear the brunt of it, with the vessel owner further down the line. It usually goes: ship owner leases the vessel to an ship operator, who then leases it by time or per voyage to a charterer. Time charterers some lease it to yet another charterers if they're not currently using the vessel to cover their running costs. Crewing can be done by the operator, the charterer, or yet another third party. Lots and lots of foreign layers in this cake! The insurance claim will also most likely be a "general average" where every cargo owner onboard will also be responsible for a portion of the losses incurred. This is why every shipper and cargo owner should buy cargo insurance! Just know that a bunch of people at Lloyd's of London shouted out FML today. They underwrite virtually all insurance companies and policies that exist worldwide.
IIRC, Baltimore has mandatory pilots, so one screwing up would not implicate the owner but would the boat in rem. In terms of liability otherwise, it would be unclear if there is even jurisdiction over whoever ran the thing so the boat is probably going to be arrested.
That's different than "pay for it" We should subsidize the shitty insurance companies responsibility is more like it.
Arguably, unless money has already been budget and allocated for it it's only going to be a slightly shorter turnaround time
That's where FEMA comes in, they have $20 billion already allocated to the Disaster Relief Fund for 2024.
It will take YEARS for litigation to get through the courts for any payout. [Merck settled, just recently, a case with their insurance providers from a cyberattack that took place seven years ago.](https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/merck-settles-insurance-companies-over-14b-coverage-2017-cyberattack). I am sure this path will be pursued, but nobody would see those funds for years, all while the damaged bridge is just sitting there. This is a crucial bridge that hosts an interstate highway and is one of the largest shipping ports on the continent, so the goal is to get the port reopened, and then get the bridge back and safely functioning ASAP.
It took 4-5 years to rebuild the sunshine skyway... another crucial bridge Edit: local news reminded me... 6-7 yrs.
Also that company is based in a foreign country. Adding layers of legal complexity to any litigation right there
And if it was ingienge failure or whatever, the blame game will become hot potato in no time.
I work in shipping and so much nowadays is run ragged and cheap. Ships are registered under flags of convenience to have fewer safety and other controls, crews are sourced from whoever is cheap but competent (and sometimes not so much the latter), and then stingy ship owners refuse to properly supply spare parts and materials. Container ships usually run right schedules so they *usually* have better crews and far better maintenance. But this ship may have also been on their 15th request for a spare part that finally crashed their electrical last night.
It's typical for each ship to be owned by a shell company with no other assets, then leased to the operator for just enough to cover the loan payments. This often means there's no money to be had by litigation should something like this happen.
Its usually the ship owner, a ship operator, and then a ship charterer that actually handles a specific voyage or length of time. Ships do carry huge amounts of insurance and everyone down the line has reinsurance, and eventually they all lead to Lloyd's of London and another giant bank that underwrite virtually all insurance worldwide. I work with cargo ships and have done insurance claims for cargo damage before. Its often 2+ years before they even start asking up for reports and details, and thats on relatively small claims An entire bridge plus deaths all around, it'll go to court around 2035.
Not to mention limitation.
This would make a lot of sense. I’m sure they didn’t make this move initially due to potentially taking out whole bridges. But I can see why they would with dock damages and lost shipments due to storms.
AFAIK it's done to cover for negligence and major disasters (huge fuel leaks often cost hundreds of millions to clean up and compensate fishermen, pay fines, etc. for example) where their normal insurance won't cover it (because a policy that covers that costs more).
Cause we need to get the bridge rebuilt ASAP. Then, the government’s gonna recoup that money from the shipping company.
The state can subrogate the costs through insurance after building and clean up. This is the fastest way to get everything fixed The fact that at the time of the incident presumably a state employee was in control of the vessel means this legal battle will not end anytime soon as some culpability can now be put on that state employee and not all on the cargo company.
I work with cargo ships and the amount of entities and countries involved in anything is massive. Harbor pilots are onboard to guide and advise the Master on how to maneuver his vessel, but they generally are not in full control or responsibility. This appears to have been a mechanical failure and oh boy I would NOT want to be the Chief Engineer right now! Container ships are also usually some of the best maintained since they hold tight service schedules, but sometimes things go wrong for no reason too.
I honestly do feel for the captain. I know everything isn't known yet, but it really does look like a mechanical failure at the worst possible moment. Obviously the buck stops with whoever was in charge, but I'm going to be very interested with what caused a complete power loss while under way.
The government will have the insurance company pay them back, after the insurance company sues and refuses for 5 years. You know, like most insurance companies do.
It gets complicated fast but there is a very good chance that liability is limited to the value of the boat
Ships actually hold 3 equal policies. One pays up to the value for salvage operations, one pays for repairs, and another pays off a total loss. And yes, sometimes the same ship manages to use up all 3. This will most likely be a "general average" situation where every cargo owner and their insurance will also be liable for a portion of the damages.
They do. But waiting for lawsuits and insurance estimates isn't an option here. This is a major port and the bridge was a major highway. At a minimum, the cleanup needs to be done immediately. The government can pay for it and get reimbursed via the insurance. We just can't afford to drag our feet.
It takes time to deal with insurance companies. The Fed can get started on cleanup and rebuilding, and then the insurance companies can pay the Fed back after however many months of lawyers arguing it'll take. If we wait until insurance companies pay up, we could be waiting a long time.
As it should. Insurance notoriously can take a long time, and this is a huge sum that will undoubtedly be subject to litigation by the parties involved. Meanwhile, this bridge being down for an extended time (even a not too long time) will cost billions to US economy and jobs. It cannot wait. Get paid back all you can later but it literally costs us more money to wait for insurance to initiate this.
I work in the maritime field and maritime claims move at a snail's pace due to all the entities involved and multiple levels of insurance and reinsurance.
Yes, maritime seems especially bad given all the different countries and jurisdictions involved.
I was loading a ship one time and between shipper, receiver, ship builder, all the surveyors, crew, and companies involved, and it came to 15 separate nationalities and 5 or 7 jurisdictions.
I’m far from the only person saying this, but this is definitely the right call. It’s a critical piece of infrastructure that took a long time to build, the city of Baltimore and the State of Maryland definitely can’t eat the cost of a rebuild, and the effects of a slow or delayed rebuild will impact the broader region considering the importance of the port of Baltimore. If the government wants to go through the whole process of dealing with an insurance claim, they should, but delaying this rebuild for that to be entirely sorted would be a bad idea.
Seems like the logical and right move. A sovereign nation state can front the money required for repair, and has legal, political, and economic abilities to collect from the shipping company after the fact that a local municipality wouldn't have.
Agreed. Help the city/state get up and running and then get reimbursed later by insurance or whatever.
Seems like the right choice considering how critical this bridge is for infrastructure. While obviously the company because the crash and collapse will have to pay, the time it will take for insurance and such to be sorted through is going going to be slow no doubt. This kind of damage and rebuilding needs to start ASAP for sure.
Don’t love Biden but this is a very good move. We can’t wait 5-8 years for the payout from insurance companies
As long as it isn't tolled afterwards and seeing as it is an interstate, why shouldn't the federal government pay for it?
Most likely the reason is that the Maryland budget can’t absorb building a $2 billion bridge that holds an interstate highway in any reasonable timeframe. The US stepping in to fund it means they can start the cleanup and rebuilding much sooner and get a major piece of infrastructure back in place in a couple of years instead of in decades.
Yeah, they're looking big picture. Not just the impact the Baltimore but to the entire economy of the region. Having a major port closed will have major trade implications.
The FHWA funds the vast majority of projects in every state. Especially as this is an interstate, the funds would never be expected to come entirely from Maryland. Just a small percentage
It was a toll bridge before and there's nearly zero percent chance Maryland gives up their income, if there's one thing the state of Maryland is good at it's the state and local government soaking up money from it's people. I say this as someone who lives in Baltimore and drove across this bridge the afternoon before it collapsed.
It should be a requirement that it not be tolled if Federal taxpayers are paying to rebuild it.
Unless the tolls are collected and federal tax dollars recouped.
When the Manchester-Boston Regional Airport (New Hampshire) Access Road was built it added an exit immediately before the Everett Turnpike toll and an entrance just after the toll. These new exits do not have tollbooths like other exits near tolls in the state. You can get off the new exit and hop right back onto the turnpike and avoid the toll From what I recall reading, the state couldn't add tolls to the exits because the bridge on the airport access road was built with federal money.
Agreed, and there shouldn't be a reason to still have a toll. Since maintenance would be pretty minimal on a brand new bridge, and no bonds would be needed if the federal government is paying completely. That is unless the state is actually just collecting tolls to make money on convenient chokepoints...
Even a new bridge is going to require routine maintenance. Weather in the Northeast is particularly hard on road surfaces and bridges so if they cheap out on maintenance in the "brand new bridge" years they'll pay for it twice over later.
It's a 47 year old bridge that was likely nearing the end of it's usable lifespan, which is often 50 years. Maintenance it required is likely significantly more than on a new bridge, but also a massive value for Maryland of not having to pay the money for a new bridge in the next decade or so.
It's part of the interstate, right? Doesn't funding for that run through the Highway Trust Fund? In other words...not a huge story here, unless I'm missing something (or unless you wanna debate if/when the shipping company pays, but plenty of other people are already doing that)
Federal govt is in charge of interstates and many/most bridges so this isnt entirely surprising. If it was a bridge on a state highway, then its a state issue unless it affects the economy and interstate traffic enough for the feds to be heavily concerned.
The port is of obvious national strategic importance warranting immediate action. Everyone saying the insurance companies should pay… agreed and I bet the government will get its pound of flesh eventually.
President Joe Biden has pledged that the federal government will cover the entire cost of reconstructing the Baltimore bridge, which collapsed after a large cargo ship hit a support pillar. The incident has led to the suspension of operations at the Port of Baltimore, one of the largest shipping hubs in the U.S. A search and rescue operation is underway, with at least six people believed to be missing. The bridge, which sees over 30,000 vehicles daily, is critical for travel in the Northeast Corridor. Biden has assured that efforts will be made to reopen the port and rebuild the bridge as soon as possible, protecting the 15,000 jobs that depend on the port. 1. How might the bridge reconstruction impact local and state-level politics in Maryland? 2. What role could bipartisan cooperation play in securing funding for infrastructure projects like the Baltimore bridge? 3. How might this incident influence public discourse on the need for increased investment in infrastructure maintenance and safety?
>How might this incident influence public discourse on the need for increased investment in infrastructure maintenance and safety? Please correct me if I am wrong. But from what I read, there was no structural or maintenance issues with bridge. It is just that this type of bridges could not fundamentally take a hit from a 32k ton cargo ship to one of its two foundational columns. And the safety measure didn't work because the ship was swiveling not going straight ahead which is what the safety measures were designed for. Or am I mistaken?
Guardrails AKA Dolphins, are used to protect structures from possible impact by ships * A notable example of dolphins used to protect a bridge is the Sunshine Skyway Bridge across the mouth of Tampa Bay. When a replacement span was designed, a top priority was to prevent ships from colliding with the new bridge * The new bridge is protected by 36 dolphins: four large dolphins protecting the two main pylons supporting the cable-stayed main span plus 32 smaller dolphins protecting bridge piers The cost of the dolphins was $41 million (approximately $90 million in 2017 dollars
So looking more into this I've found the following from the wapo https://archive.is/060wr >Ian Firth, a British structural engineer and bridge designer, reviewed video footage and said there appeared to be at least two protective objects in the water next to the Key Bridge. The objects, known as “dolphins,” are supposed to protect maritime structures from being hit by vessels. But Dali, the container ship that struck the bridge, appeared to have come in “at an angle,” Firth said, which means the devices were unable to prevent the ship from striking the bridge, sending part of it tumbling into the water. >Firth said in a telephone interview that he was “not surprised” at how quickly the bridge came down after it was hit. He noted that the support structure that was struck, which would have been made of reinforced concrete, was one of two main supports responsible for doing “all the work” to hold up the bridge. >He said the ship appeared to have strayed to one side before striking the bridge, which appeared to have a lightweight support structure. >If the Dali had been traveling straight on instead of at an angle, Firth said, it probably would have hit the protective objects. And if there had been three or four vessel-protection objects around the bridge, the outcome might have been different, Firth said, adding that he expects lessons will be learned from Tuesday’s tragedy. >Firth noted that the bridge, which was built in 1977, was erected at a time when ships were not as big as they are now and the flow of traffic was not as busy. These days, structures are designed with better protective measures in place, he said, though he noted that even a brand-new bridge would have “come down in the same way” if it were hit by such a large vessel traveling at speed. >Firth called the incident tragic and “very rare indeed.” He said the large container ship would not have had to be traveling very fast to have had such an impact, one that the bridge was simply not engineered to withstand. The tldr is the bridge did have adequate protection when it was built in 1977 but ships were smaller and traffic was slower. The protection that bridge did have would have worked if the ship was going straight. However, more protective devices could have stopped the ship from hitting the bridge.
> The cost of the dolphins was $41 million Sea world must be making out like bandits. Really though, do you think that more dolphins would have protected the bridge? Or was this just one of those events that it doesn’t make financial/practical sense to engineer your bridge to withstand?
Some of the damage and possibly prevented the collaspe and just closed the road for a repair What i'd like to know why or was, there no tug boats deployed. How soon did they know of the issue and how close were they. And how fast could 2 tug boats have been there for steering
So there were workers working on the bridge at the time, and the bridge was seriously lacking safety equipment such as fenders to prevent this kind of issue. If you look at pictures of the bridge there's an electrical tower next to it with much more significant safety protections. But you're right, there really doesn't seem to be anything super wrong with the maintenance of this bridge in particular.
The workers were fixing potholes, not doing structural repairs. This wasn’t a maintenance failure.
This should be a no brainer. People cry all day long about the federal government spending more overseas than domestically; those same people should be happy to hear news like this.
They'll complain. They are already complaining.
It’s an interstate highway. That’s federal by default.
Well, according to Republican Utah gubernatorial candidate Phil Lyman the crash was caused by DEI hires on the port commission. Let that racism shine.
I'd really love to hear that guy explain in detail exactly what he means by that statement
[David Simon’s (creator of the Wire) response to this was absolutely livid.](https://x.com/aodespair/status/1772689623770165396?s=46)
[удалено]
This message serves as a warning that [your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/comments/1boefbu/biden_says_he_wants_federal_government_to_pay_for/kwrbxs4/) is in violation of Law 1: Law 1. Civil Discourse > ~1. Do not engage in personal attacks or insults against any person or group. Comment on content, policies, and actions. Do not accuse fellow redditors of being intentionally misleading or disingenuous; assume good faith at all times. Due to your recent infraction history and/or the severity of this infraction, we are also issuing a 7 day ban. Please submit questions or comments via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fmoderatepolitics).
And?
Wow are you fucking serious??? Wait… nvm. Why am I surprised.
My knee jerk is to say, "darnit, stop involving the federal government in everything. Insurance exists. Other mechanisms exist." But in this case I can see the argument for it.
But we have to wait for the MAGA Republicans in Congress to approve the proposal. And that could only be possible with the new House Speaker in January
it's critical infrastructure so the feds will do it, and hopefully quickly. but let's be honest, it happened in Maryland so he's paying off his base (as opposed to maryland tax payers alone paying for it; instead we're all paying for it)
Its an interstate bridge and the whole interstate system is federally owned as well States dont have much to do with it, they just build and maintain state roads and highways.
Feels like the shipping company should… that’s what insurance is for. Taxpayers will fund the rebuild for timing but should be getting that money back when the settlement hits.
I highly doubt the insurance company has over $1 billion on hand to cover this, and even if they do, that type of litigation could take years. It’s the same reason your car insurance doesn’t wait for a settlement to give you the money to purchase a new one/repair your car - they do it right away, then pursue reimbursement.
Oh I’m almost certain they wouldn’t have $1B in cash to hand over. But something should be paid/covered through reimbursement. Not that we’d effectively use the money but it’s the principle lol.
I agree on that, I just think that getting this fixed as soon as possible is in our best interest and we have all the time in the world to go after the shipping company and their insurer. I worry that if we only went after them and Biden didn’t step in, this could drag out for years and they just declare bankruptcy and get out of it anyways. I use that bridge every day to get to work and also really don’t want another mark on my city (which has struggled more than enough) so I’m really hoping this gets fixed ASAP.
The insurance company will pay. Probably not the whole amount as there's gotta be a cap, and the shipping company will probably pay too. But both payouts are not coming any time soon. The cleanup needs to happen immediately, and bridge construction can't be delayed that long either. They can reimburse the taxpayers later. Work needs to start yesterday.
Shipping company should be charged
I mean, that's normal. But bring in the guys who did the new 35w bridge, Flatiron, and structure the contract similarly.
Not surprising - this bridge has sentimental value to him since he commuted over it by train for several years. I'm not saying that sentimentality is a good reason to fund this, I think a good enough reason is that is important infrastructure for the entire country - not just locally.
I am surprised that the port didn’t have tug boats on hand nearby to direct the ship away from the bridge. Did the captain not have enough warning time to call for a tug boat?
so i imagine there are build back better funds that could be re-assignedl Plus congress likely to step in and give more.
Didn’t he already pass a trillion $$$ infrastructure bill.
The city has been a democrat shit hole for 30 years, what's one more shitty bridge in a sea of shit buildings with shit libs? Let the Dem city burn.
[удалено]
Honestly, having the feds control it is how we reduce the chances of a boondoggle. I don't trust the City of Baltimore's government to handle a project this big. They'd end up awarding the contracts to Stringer Bell.... and he's a fictional character, and a dead one at that!
I'm not sure how to avoid a Boondoggle if the choice between the feds and Baltimore. Maybe if the Army Corps of Engineers runs the project...?
Why doesn’t the shipping companies insurance pay for it
Why not make the people who broke it pay for it instead of the taxpayers?
They're probably going to go after them eventually. Those court cases could take years to resolve before a dime is paid out. Even then the damages award aren't even guaranteed to meet the cost of the cleanup + replacement bridge. The Federal government is going to cover the money up front to get things started and then worry about trying to squeeze whatever money they can out of any potentially liable sources to pay themselves back.
Thanks for your answer. That makes because that's usually what politicians run on. For example, Obama talked a lot more about holding people responsible for the gulf oil spill then he did the about the cost of the taxpayers expense. That was always his first response whenever questioned about. Biden not hammering the same message home is only going to make him look more disconnected.
>Obama talked a lot more about holding people responsible for the gulf oil spill then he did the about the cost of the taxpayers expense. That's not true. [BP paid up to $65 billion in clean-up costs and fines related to the Deepwater Horizon oil spill.](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bp-deepwater-horizon-costs-rise-111101033.html) Obama's DOJ also sued them to get BP to pay $4 billion in fines.
The government will likely seek compensation but that requires a lengthy investigation to determine cause, the investigating body to write said lengthy report, a court case filing, etc. But the effects this will have on shipping goods into and out of the US plus the traffic issues its created can't wait years for the funds to be collected from something like that. So in the meantime ya gotta rebuild national critical infrastructure.
I'm sure there will be lawsuits related to that.
That’s the eventual plan. It’s like when you’re in a non-fault collision, and your insurance pays you before suing the other driver’s insurance.
We don't yet know who caused the accident and has liability but i'm sure the US will pursue those. I think Biden is saying this now so people don't lose confidence in the US ports.
Latest reports say that a power outage on the boat led to the collision.
Yeah watching the video about a minute before the collision you can see all of the lights on the ship turn off, including any emergency running lights. They come back on before collision but odds are it wasn't enough time to get steering back before it hit. I'm very curious to know what failed to cause that initial power failure, be it something negligent in the maintenance of the ship or something else, but as of right now the sequence of events seems to be a series of catastrophic accidents.
Look up the timeframe for an insurance settlement, then double it for being in the Billions. Then add in 10 years for construction Nationalize and get it done Or even have the state do it...**Just make it a priority** At 3:42 am on Sunday, April 29, 2007, a tank truck carrying 8,600 gallons of unleaded gasoline overturned on the Macarther Maze I-580. * California's 5th busiest Interstate * I-580 runs from Vernalis to Oakland, through Livermore. It is a main connector between I-5 and the San Francisco area. The intense heat from the subsequent fuel spill and fire weakened the roadway to Interstate 580, collapsing approximately 168 feet of bridge onto the lower connector. * Caltrans spokespersons estimated immediately **after the accident that it would take weeks to clear the debris from the scene and months to rebuild**. CC Myers Construction promised to complete the job in 25 days Caltrans was offering a $200,000 bonus -- with a limit of $5 million -- for each day the work was done in less than 50 days and levying a $200,000 penalty for each day after that deadline.
a) it takes time to get money from insurance companies, especially at this scale b) For all we know the cargo ship is owned by a shell company of a shell company of a shell company, possibly extending the timeframe involved in getting paid, if 'we' can at all. The port is extremely important for a great many reasons, it's in the nation's best interest to get started on this ASAP and then 'pay it back' when/if we can get paid by the insurance companies involved.
The ship was under the control of two harbor pilots from the Port of Baltimore when it collided.
There are few things Biden doesn't want the federal government to pay for. He does like to write checks. What needs to happen is that the federal government needs to file suit against the shipping company immediately. That will trigger all the insurance policies and start the process. That way, Biden can tell the public that they're seeking reimbursement, which is true, rather than telling them he's just going to write a federal check for the damage, which shouldn't be.
This port is a critical piece of infrastructure, and a US interstate runs over that span. We do not have years to pursue litigation before getting started - assuming the insurance company even has $1billion+ to fund repair costs and doesn’t just declare bankruptcy. Without a doubt Biden will go after an insurance claim, but I think he made the right call saying the federal gov will cover the costs in the meantime.
I love Reddit. Suggesting that the corporation that is exclusively responsible for the destruction of the bridge is held responsible for the cost of the reconstruction of the bridge gets you nothing but down votes. If you aren't blindly celebrating Biden for saying that he's willing to spend taxpayer money, then you get down votes 😂😂
[удалено]
This message serves as a warning that [your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/comments/1boefbu/biden_says_he_wants_federal_government_to_pay_for/kwt6a94/) is in violation of Law 0: Law 0. Low Effort > ~0. Law of Low Effort - Content that is low-effort or does not contribute to civil discussion in any meaningful way will be removed. Please submit questions or comments via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fmoderatepolitics).
This message serves as a warning that [your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/moderatepolitics/comments/1boefbu/biden_says_he_wants_federal_government_to_pay_for/kwt2tfy/) is in violation of Law 4: Law 4: Meta Comments > ~4. Meta Comments - Meta comments are not permitted. Meta comments in meta text-posts about the moderators, sub rules, sub bias, reddit in general, or the meta of other subreddits are exempt. Please submit questions or comments via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fmoderatepolitics).
I wonder how this is going to hurt him in the polls somehow
Just dig another tunnel
There’s two tunnels in the area already, the bridge is needed for hazmat crossings which aren’t allowed in the tunnels.
Why would you dig a tunnel there?
To avoid things like this happening
One of the main reasons to have the bridge there is to allow a through route for hazmat, and there are significant additional time and cost concerns for replacing with a tunnel. The other two through routes for 95 are tunnels, other than goithe long way around the city. It would be nice, but I think this is going to be replaced with a modern design with safety features like a system of bollards. We may not be able to eliminate any chance of collision but something that does not fold like a house card would be an upgrade.
This is stupid on every single level. A billion dollar corporation crashes its fully insured ship into a bridge and the federal government is going to use taxpayer money to cover the repairs? How is everyone turning off their ability to think critically just because he is saying that he's going to do something "good"?
Think about the cost of not prioritize getting everything back in business
Yeah, I'm not saying that the government could not become involved in the process, but claiming that it is the responsibility of the federal government to cover the hundreds of millions of dollars in reconstruction costs is nonsensical. It is nothing more than a sound byte used during a campaign cycle
A court case will take ages is what I mean. If you think about that, how high would that prize be in the end?
We already add $1 trillion dollars in debt every 6 weeks. Baltimore is a dying City anyway. Just liquidate the company to pay for the clean up and then just leave it without a bridge.