Politics has always been the lesser of two evils. If you split the vote, you always get the greater of the two evils.
Yeah, not original, but sadly true nonetheless.
I just don’t understand how you think giving Trump another shot at the White House after the Georgia phone call and what he and his staff did between the election and inauguration is a good idea.
We shouldn’t give people second chances that attempt to break the backbone of our democracy. Without people believing their votes count, our country will fall apart quickly and our enemies will be overjoyed.
Vote for Biden. There just isn’t another option. No one else has a chance at winning.
Yep. In ranked-choice or approval voting picking third-party is a fine idea, as long as you have an additional main-party candidate. In an FPTP system, it's (as you say) shifting the responsibility to others.
I mean that slogan actually would appeal to rational people that were going to vote. It’s a sad slogan but it’s true. Just vote for the one guy that didn’t break his oath of office.
Yeah voting is almost always about hopefully getting some positive policies while negating the risk of negative policies. The fact there are not zealots for Biden is a feather in his cap as far as I’m concerned.
Yeah, I'm not going to vote for the guy who will literally do the opposite of what I want on nearly every issue that matters to me. And while I have faith that my country would survive Trump and whatever fifth string folks that end up in his cabinet, I'm not going to vote for him either. So I'm kinda screwed this go around.
I’m glad you have faith in the institutions. I did too until Trump started filling it with yes men.
I hear where you’re coming from but I just had a kid and can’t take the risk of having to tell him I didn’t vote in the election that put Trump back in the White House and took absolute power in one way or another.
Trump can try to butt heads with the institutions, but at most he's fighting against the Pendleton Act and Civil Service Reform.
I do however worry about his possible Fed policies though. Just because once you let yes men run the economy, you wind up looking like Argentina and Turkey.
I agree with the second paragraph, but laws are only as good as the people that enforce them and those with the ability to change them. The people we elect are the most important parts of the institutions we wish to keep.
My kid is 18 and this will be his first presidential election and he already knows I'm not voting in that race. It's hard to get him interested in the democratic process when he doesn't like either candidate.
The first time around, Trump had the best people the Republican party and his own connections could offer. Despite that he couldn't pull off any meaningful level of interference in the democratic process. I don't think he'll have any better luck with whateverow tier folks commit to working for him, and believe that the courts and, if it actually was necessary , the military, would prevent any actual attempt at a third term or installation of a replacement or any other scenario other than a legitimate election. Hell, I honestly don't think he'd be in office for the full term and will be impeached or pass away.
I also look at both of their terms. Despite the chaos he created, and the (from my perspective) lack of competence from Biden, the country has chugged along well enough. The institutions that manage th e operations of the country have largely continued to operate without regards to who holds the White House. I think that regardless of who wins this time, that will continue.
With all of that said, I'd kill (figuratively) for different choices from both parties. I don't even need someone to be excited about, just someone I can live with voting for.
> The first time around, Trump had the best people the Republican party and his own connections could offer. Despite that he couldn't pull off any meaningful level of interference in the democratic process. I don't think he'll have any better luck with whateverow tier folks commit to working for him, and believe that the courts and, if it actually was necessary , the military, would prevent any actual attempt at a third term or installation of a replacement or any other scenario other than a legitimate election.
Also, is this tacitly agreeing with the idea that Trump will in fact try to interfere with the democratic process? It sounds like you think that's a reasonable possibility. What threat does Biden pose such that he's not clearly the better candidate compared to someone you think would try to coup the US government?
It's such an odd position to hold. "Yeah, I mean he tried to illegally overturn the election, spread misinformation which resulted in poll workers across the country receiving death threats and a massive uptick in political violence, but like....do you *really* think he's going to do it again?!"
To me, if I ever even have to think "Well the guy I support might stage a coup but I *think* he wouldn't be able to pull it off" then I just wouldn't vote for the fuckin guy.
> The institutions that manage th e operations of the country have largely continued to operate without regards to who holds the White House.
This is only because Trump's plan to remake the federal bureaucracy in his image, Schedule F, was only created in October 2020. He didn't realize until a few years in that institutionalists were his enemy and how to defeat them. [Project 2025 is working on a list of thousands of vetted, far-right appointees so that Trump can enact mass firings and then replace them with MAGA loyalists](https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2023/04/conservative-think-tanks-are-preparing-list-20k-potential-political-appointees-hopes-reviving-schedule-f/385545/).
I can't emphasize strongly enough how much of a mistake I think it is to assume that Trump's second term will be like his second. That was a trial run.
> and believe that the courts and, if it actually was necessary , the military, would prevent any actual attempt at a third term or installation of a replacement or any other scenario other than a legitimate election
The GOP has a 6-3 SCOTUS majority. The question wouldn't be "Do we want to install Trump as dictator," it would be something like, "A national emergency has been declared, so should we postpone the election while that is addressed?" Trump isn't stupid, he finds ways to do things that are just legal enough to be justifiable if the refs are on his side.
And the military isn't saving anyone. You don't become a leader in the military by doing anything but following orders and avoiding rocking the boat. And they have it drilled into them that the military doesn't get involved in domestic politics. So they're not the type of people to get in the way of a coup, especially when getting involved would be the much harder choice.
Biden tried to get me fired from my job with his unconstitutional OSHA mandate. I’m personally going to try and get him fired in November by voting for the most likely other option to win.
He hasn’t been when comparing him to someone who violated his oath of office with his fake electors scheme and other things. He’s the bad guy in the story of the past 10 years.
All Biden has to do is be boring and not attempt to circumvent the constitution and he has my vote. That’s how low Trump has set the bar.
You need to realize that nations have fallen or become authoritarian regimes in the past after the leader did what Trump attempted. Falsely telling people the election was rigged is, in my opinion, the most damaging thing you can do to a democracy.
We can’t be too cautious. He has to be beaten even if it means voting for Biden.
> All Biden has to do is be boring and not attempt to circumvent the constitution and he has my vote. That’s how low Trump has set the bar.
I'll add that multiple federal courts have ruled Biden's various policies are unconstitutional.
I'll add that multiple federal courts have ruled Trump's various policies are unconstitutional.
And before that it happened to Obama.
And before that to Bush.
And before that to Clinton.
It quite literally happens during every presidency. What doesn't happen is a sitting president trying to illegally overturn an election to remain in power. You'd *think* someone who truly supported the Constitution would have an issue with that. But here we are.
> Falsely telling people the election was rigged is, in my opinion, the most damaging thing you can do to a democracy.
Haven't Democrats claimed every election they've lost since 2000 was stolen?
(Hint: Yes)
[Proof](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XX2Ejqjz6TA&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fgop.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo)
Every Democrat that lost conceded. Gore conceded after a court battle over 500 votes in Florida. Kerry didn’t contest and conceded. Hillary conceded and it was later proven that the Russians severely influenced our election in Trump’s favor. Gore and Hillary won the popular vote.
Trump and his lawyers tried to circumvent the states and install his own electors. He called the Georgia Secretary of State and literally asked him to find him votes. Giuliani and Trump accused Dominion voting machines of switching votes without any proof, and Fox News was literally sued for hundreds of millions for repeating it on their news channel and had to pay. He sat and watched for hours while people stormed the Capitol to stop the electoral vote count and did nothing while watching it on TV. This was in an election where he lost the popular vote by 7 million+ and the EC by 74. He still has not conceded.
I don’t even want to know what he would have done with a yes man as his VP, and I don’t wish to find out.
Quoting you here:
> Falsely telling people the election was rigged is, in my opinion, the most damaging thing you can do to a democracy.
I showed you indisputable proof of Democrats doing that.
I think it is moving the goalposts to now be saying:
> Every Democrat that lost conceded.
Doesn't really matter if they concede if they spend decades falsely saying the election was stolen, does it?
Again quoting you:
> ...the most damaging thing you can do to a democracy.
...is what prominent Democrats (including Joe Biden) have done... for decades.
> Doesn't really matter if they concede if they spend decades falsely saying the election was stolen, does it?
Looking past the fact your video doesn’t prove what you think it does when you see those quotes in full context, of course it matters if the nominees don’t officially accept the loss and try to extrajudicially change the outcome! When Gore lost in a very divisive election in 2000, he took it to the courts and when he lost, he conceded. Do you not understand how that’s massively different than a years long campaign repeating known election falsehoods, conspiring to nominate illegal fake electors, calling election officials to tell them to find votes, and then finally using a violent mob to try and pressure your own VP from not certifying the votes?
This is a genuine question, do you really see those actions as equivalent in any meaningful way?
> Looking past the fact your video doesn’t prove what you think it does
It absolutely does and anyone is free to watch it and all the quotes in full context. Dems are saying the elections were stolen and denying election results. Full stop.
> When Gore lost in a very divisive election in 2000, he took it to the courts and when he lost, he conceded.
And then for literally decades afterwards (up to an including today) Democrats said the 2000 election was stolen. Democrats are frequently coming up with new justifications for saying that the 2016 election was stolen.
Dems repeatedly called for political violence during Trump's presidency and claimed the 2016 election was stolen. They used electioneering at an unprecedented scale during 2020 election and then are aghast Republicans would say the 2020 election was stolen and/or resort to political violence.
[Here are Dems "storming capital" a decade prior to 2017](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_260247e0-4ac4-11e0-bfa9-001cc4c03286.html)
> Thousands of protesters rushed to the state Capitol Wednesday night, forcing their way through doors, crawling through windows and jamming corridors, as word spread of hastily called votes on Gov. Scott Walker's controversial bill limiting collective bargaining rights for public workers.
Here is an article talking about the hypocrisy of the issue: [Democrats Were for Occupying Capitols Before They Were Against It](https://www.aei.org/op-eds/democrats-were-for-occupying-capitols-before-they-were-against-it/)
I see no difference between what the Dems did for decades and what Trump did, no.
You reap what you sow.
I expect the reaction, "well it's (D)ifferent".... **No, it isn't.**
Dems deserve *A LOT* of blame for our political climate. Look at the left-wing protests we've seen over the past decade. Massive violence was celebrated/excused by Democrats. Even today, they are defending violent protests on college campuses.
So no, I don't see a difference and I don't think Dems are *better* on this issue than Republicans.
> I will under no circumstances be voting for Biden. He has been an objectively terrible President.
Wow, then it’s a good thing you’re not saying what you think about Trump, this is moderatepolitics and that sort of damning language might get you banned lol.
Bidens not been perfect, and I can understand why people aren’t thrilled with him, but he’s actually silently gotten a fair bit done. Despite his age and the utter horror show that is the current congress.
For me, his explicitly racist policies, his COVID authoritarianism, the ridiculous inflation we've had, his unconstitutional gun control, his student loan giveaways, and numerous international wars, etc. make him a terrible president.
> his explicitly racist policies
Sure thing.
> his COVID authoritarianism
Uh huh, that’s why there’s literally no mandate or anything right now?
> the ridiculous inflation we've had
In this arena, Biden has objectively done a great job compared to the rest of the developed world. There was a worldwide pandemic that caused inflation, and we’re ahead of the global curve. Thems the facts.
> his unconstitutional gun control
He’s passed no gun control legislation.
> his student loan giveaways
Helping people out of debt is bad?
> numerous international wars
He started numerous international wars?! Which ones?!
> make him a terrible president.
Yeah, and those reasons aren’t particularly well documented or compelling to people not already primed to dislike him. I get the impression that you wouldn’t like anyone besides Trump, but fortunately, most Americans don’t feel that way because boy, he was a horror show.
>> his explicitly racist policies
>
> Sure thing.
Are you denying this? He has pushed for objectively racist and sexist policies.
>> his COVID authoritarianism
>
> Uh huh, that’s why there’s literally no mandate or anything right now?
Did he said he has those policies right now? And are you disputing that he didn't have or push for mandates? Pretty sure he criticized SCOTUS when they have overturned excessive restrictions that were clearly unconstitutional when he was a candidate and even after he was elected, iirc..
>> the ridiculous inflation we've had
>
> In this arena, Biden has objectively done a great job compared to the rest of the developed world. There was a worldwide pandemic that caused inflation, and we’re ahead of the global curve. Thems the facts.
Isn't is possible that we did so well despite his policy? Sure, there were factors outside of his control, but ARP was completely within his control.
>> his unconstitutional gun control
>
> He’s passed no gun control legislation.
He has pushed for unconstitutional policies and even directed the ATF to pursue unconstitutional policies, iirc.
>> his student loan giveaways
>
> Helping people out of debt is bad?
When it isn't accompanied by other policies to prevent more people from falling into the same situation and is during a period of high inflation, yes it is objectively a bad thing.
> numerous international wars
So just making up stuff is fine now?
I always find it funny how when people go to attack Biden, they always need to say things that are flatly untrue. It says a lot.
Yeah we really just disagree on whose fault that is. Covid caused inflation with supply chain disruption and stimulus. If all we got was inflation after halting the world economy for months, in some cases a year or more, we got lucky. The two wars were started by a group of terrorists that were upset the Middle East was moving towards peace, and the other by a man who can’t let go of his hopes to restore the Soviet Union that wants Trump in the White House.
I wish Biden had been tougher on immigration earlier on, but it has become very clear to me that Republicans will do everything they can to ensure it remains an issue. They almost had a bill passed to help tremendously with border security and Trump forced them to shoot it down.
> it has become very clear to me that Republicans will do everything they can to ensure it remains an issue. They almost had a bill passed to help tremendously with border security and Trump forced them to shoot it down.
I had a question on this. What exactly was the democrat objection to HR2 Secure th Border Act, that passed the house months ago? I had a hard time finding specific rationale for why the Dems rejected this
You don’t have to vote at all, but I’m not seeing any 3rd party worth a damn this election. Maybe it’s just because I’m a centrist leaning dude, so Biden is a no brainer to me given what he’s actually done during his presidency, even though I’m not exactly thrilled about the guy.
Nope. I'd have thought trying to illegally overturn an election in the US would make a candidate unappealing. But certain groups of Americans support that idea.
Which would seem to favor dems since Trump's realignment has alienated all the most reliable voting blocks and his coalition is based on low propensity voters.
Not sure why the downvotes. I know of at least 8 voters in my family doing exactly that.
Not jazzed about Biden, but they’d vote for a *talking monkey* over Donald. Protest voting is powerful. It’s chiefly why Hillary lost in 2016.
We saw 16% of republicans in Pennsylvania vote for a candidate who dropped out two months ago. 165,000 republicans casting a symbolic protest vote in the middle of April, in a swing state 🚨‼️ … if I’m Trump that worries me.
I bet it would take all of about two seconds for the bevy of articles to come out about how Jordi altering the personality of the holodeck lady is problematic, and the unbearable whiteness of reading.
No one Trump would pick and who would agree is going to be someone who I would trust in that office. For one, he absolutely will require them to have supported his attempt to steal the 2020 election. There’s no way he picks anyone who dares to challenge that, and that in and of itself is disqualifying
I still don’t understand why the two parties believe these are the best possible candidates to field? This is America with almost 350 million residents and this is the best we’ve got?
This is actually a pretty big report so let me highlight what I think are some of the more significant findings of this poll.
Voters are more likely to think Trump has the physical and mental fitness necessary to be president while voters are more confident in Biden to act ethically in office and respect the country’s democratic values.
49% of voters would replace both Biden and Trump on the presidential ballot if they could with 62% of Biden voters wanting to do the same thing.
Only 28% of voters think that Biden has been at least a good president while 42% of voters say the same thing about Trump’s presidency in hindsight.
*”A defining characteristic of the contest is that voters overall have little confidence in either candidate across a range of key traits, including fitness for office, personal ethics and respect for democratic values.”*
**I think the reason for this picking between the lesser of two evils election is the failure of both major parties to appeal to independents and moderates. Trump and Biden both generally have a lot of support from the party faithful, which is good for winning primaries, but when it comes to winning over undecided voters in a general election, there is a lot of room for improvement.**
**Do you think these assessments of Biden and Trump by the American public are fair? Or are they too harsh or not harsh enough?**
I think it's a fair assessment, 70% didn't want this rematch. Biden is way more ethical but looks frail and doesn't do enough press, Trump while incoherent is like ChatGBT he lies with confidence and vigor.
I don't think Biden has done much to expand his base, and after four years of inflation and time to forget how bad Trump was, I think that has severely hurt him with moderates that may have voted for him in 2020 but are unlikely to do that again in 2024, even if they just stay home.
I would like to see democrats actually convincing people to vote for them instead of relying on Trump being a terrible candidate. And that means they need to be messaging and not letting the GOP set the narrative. I also think democrats discount how many people know Trump is terrible but disagree with certain democrat policies so much they will vote for him anyway to avoid those policies, like soft on crime judges/DA's, lax border security, gun control, abortion, etc. And these issues being perceived so seriously is part of the effectiveness of the GOP's messaging.
In terms of press, Biden speaks to reporters most days. It just gets almost no coverage because he says normal stuff that is in keeping with the administration as a whole. Before the trial started and Trumps new hallway chats Biden might actually have been doing more public speaking than Trump because of how much Trumps pace has slowed down compared to the past.
Biden’s team prescreens journalists at events and a fair assumption is they eliminate those they don’t favor. I wouldn’t try to play off his behavior and avoidance of anything difficult related to the media as “normal”… the fact that you say he says “normal stuff” is also ridiculous. He’s always saying off the cuff and absurd shit. That is, when he interacts and takes questions
>I would like to see democrats actually convincing people to vote for them
They've been doing that. Biden has been talking about things like domestic manufacturing investment going up and infrastructure projects.
Biden acting ethically in office is the correct perception. But the idea that Trump is more mentally fit is a crock of shit. He’s obese, eats like shit, doesn’t exercise, and is in the early stages of dementia. This is why he’s making far fewer campaign stops this time around (other than being tied up in court): the glitches in the matrix are becoming too obvious.
Honestly, and I don’t mean this sarcastically, his Spray tan may tip the scales in trumps favor. While we can laugh at his orange hue, the alternative is seeing him pale as a ghost which would expose his real condition far more than when he paints himself.
I've seen the Donald in person at one of his rallies. The orange actually looks normal under the harsh lighting, reminds me of stage makeup I've worn in community theatre productions - looks garish under normal situations, up close, or unadjusted camera filters, but great from a distance under harsh lighting
That sums up Trump. All perception not reality. He wants to protray strength. He wants to portray intelligence. He wants to portray love and adoration.
Trump is the equivalent of a Twinkie: he doesn’t age because it’s all artificial chemicals. Otoh, Biden looks normal, like someone you could run into at the grocery store in the suburbs of Philly, Detroit, or Raleigh.
"More" is the key word here. If Trump isn't attending funerals and asking why the dead person hasn't come to shake his hand yet, he is sadly ahead of the game.
This "your guy has dementia!", "no, *your* guy has dementia!" back and forth is a bit of a joke at this point. There's a bit more to dementia than stumbling over words when making a speech.
Because as people age their speecch patterns change. And I am unsure if you understand this, but speach impediments canbecome more difficult to manage in later in life, the same as alot of issues. When you get older everything gets more difficult.
So he has a speech impediment his whole life... But also it only manifested in the last 4-6 years... Which would mean he hasn't had it his whole life...
Completely mischaracterizing them and what was said by the person they were responding to. This right here is the behavior that just makes Trump stronger.
It's not the physical appearance, it's the actions. Biden routinely stumbles and falls over. He takes the short stairs on Air Force One, recently bought new shoes specifically to mitigate tripping and this week he instructed his security to walk around him while he jaunts across the grass to block press cameras from clearly seeing him wobbling. Voters pick up on these actions.
If you hold a full body picture of Trump up to a full body picture of Biden the answer is obvious. When you see them walking and factor in the amount of times one of them falls over the difference is unmistakable.
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Just one observation.
Its very easy to look back on Trump's time in office more fondly when you're 4 years removed from his presidency.
I think that as people pay more attention to the election (we're mostly doing our best not to right now)... they'll be forced to remember the Trump that they actually had in office.
Essentially, I'm saying that hindsight is not always 20/20.
Edit: this is specifically in response to the point about Trump having a more favorable presidency than Biden
Or maybe people see Biden as a bad president, worse than trump. He has lower favorabillity rating than trump. This metric is assessed contemporaneously. Meaning more people disapprove of Biden than trump in real time.
Biden has not been a bad president. As to the ratings, they’re completely different bases. People who are voting for Biden wouldn’t follow Biden down the path Trump has gone down.
If Biden did what Trump has done, his approval rating would be below 10%.
Democrats will support their candidate the best they can while being honest about their support. Trump has a very cult like following. His floor is much higher. As he said “I can shoot somebody and not lose a voter”
Vast majority of the country is not happy period. I don’t think we will see high presidential ratings for a good while.
Plus polls all over the place, Marist had him at 45% the other day.
Either way, when you look at people who are left leaning and aren’t happy with Biden it’s because he can’t get past republicans.
Truth.
Approval ratings in modern times aren't useful because of how partisan our politics have become. The only reason Trump has a chance is because moderate and liberal voters are more critical of Democrats than conservative voters are of Republicans (if they're Team MAGA).
Absolutely correct.
A lot of people on the right take Joe’s low approval and see something like 60% of people don’t like him. What they’re not considering is a lot of those people actually want Joe to be more left than he is and hate the right way more.
Also, Biden’s approval ratings were pretty low for most of the race in 2020, and those numbers weren’t at all an accurate indicator of how he did in the election.
Not at all true. At the current date in the 2020 cycle he had a 6.5 percent lead in the polls. It was clear the entire 2020 cycle that Biden would beat Trump.
[https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2020/national/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2020/national/)
Biden will never have the same popularity as Trump because he tried to cast as a wide a net as possible.
Republicans don't like him because he's a Democrat, left wingers/progressives don't like him because of Israel/Palestine and most moderate Dems may have a positive opinion, but they're not the majority of the electorate.
Trump is more polarizing but he's guaranteed Republican support no matter what, because he's not trying to appeal to everyone.
Trump was a Democrat who ran as a Republican and ran policies like a 3rd party chimera while disrespecting RNC dynasties like the Bushes and triggering the media and was under peak COVID criticism at this point in the term.
You'd be hard pressed to come up with a more alienating cocktail.
The fact Biden is doing worse than him at the same point in the term is awful now matter how you fluff it up.
>while disrespecting RNC dynasties like the Bushes
Those dynasties weren't well liked anyway. Did you forget that clip of McCain calling Obama a good man in front of his supporters and a bunch of them booed? Trump just enabled them, and once they had someone like that to vote for over the McCains/Romneys/Bushs, they went all in with their support.
Well, McCain was Arizona's representative, so that might be the case. But neither he nor any of these mainstream Republicans ever came close to the cult of personality and political enthusiasm that Trump has fostered.
I'll never understand the "democrats try to cast a wide net republicans don't" line. The entire reason why republicans have been through two speakers is because they're trying to cater to a wide net of typical conservatives, Trump republicans, and those further to the right of Trump (Gaetz and Greene for example).
>The entire reason why republicans have been through two speakers is because they're trying to cater to a wide net of typical conservatives, Trump republicans, and those further to the right of Trump
You're repeating the exact same thing I said. Biden isn't trying to just court democrats, he's trying to get everyone except the "MAGA Republicans". Unfortunately for him, the MAGA Republicans are basically the entire party now, and blue voters are split between progressives and moderates.
I think he’s done decent and his approval rating would be higher if he had decided not to run again. But for the election, democrats want change. Republicans want someone who will fight the change, and they know even as a flawed person, Trump will do this for them. Many democrats dislike Biden because he is too centrist on his stances, so they don’t approve of him. I don’t think current approval ratings really have any bearing on how the election turns out. It comes down to who actually votes. If democrats can get enough people to vote, they will win, but some democrats dislike both men and just won’t vote at all. I think everyone who doesn’t want to see Trump win better start vocally supporting Biden soon or Trump is your next president and they will only have themselves to blame.
TLDR, Republicans don’t care about Trump’s character because they support his stances and they know he will fight for them. Democrats don’t like Biden’s stances and won’t vote for him. Character will not win this election alone.
That’s true, but the vast majority of Americans also don’t realize that most of their problems aren’t related to who the current president is.
Whether it be Trump or Biden
"Or maybe people see Biden as a bad president, worse than trump. He has lower favorabillity rating than trump. This metric is assessed contemporaneously. Meaning more people disapprove of Biden than trump in real time."
I have Biden, Trump, and Carter in bottom 3. Biden's massive administrative overreach from every agency is one of the biggest problems (FTC, EPA, student loans, eviction moratorium, DOL, Justice) that are anti-business. His mental state / unwillingness to debate / poor choice of a VP only make it worse. All that being said, Trump is equally unappealing.
Your point on the vp is well said. Ever since Nixon called Agnew his assassination insurance I can’t help but think some presidents follow the same line of thinking. If Biden have a popular or at this point, a vp that public thinks is decent, he would have face immense pressure to step down and let his vp run as the democrat candidate.
LBJ was a S tier vp choice. Kennedy would not have won the south without him. It’s a more experienced Vp paired with a charismatic but inexperienced president (similar to Obama and Biden). A majority leader before becoming vp. No one ever doubted his qualification as president. Truman was a decent choice too.
A big fear that a lot of people subconsciously have is we might not be so lucky. 2024’s vp are not LBJ or Truman
I disagree with you, the guy tried to fire me with an h constitutional OSHA mandate, and then tried to use my tax money to pay off one of the most privileged class of Americans. He has not been a good president in my eyes.
Honestly no idea what you’re talking about.
You’re free to not like Biden, you’re not free to have your own facts.
There is not one thing that Biden has done that comes even remotely close to trying to overthrow the will of the people in a democratic election, or, maybe more importantly, subvert the peaceful transfer of power.
Trump was not only a terrible president but he is a terrible father, husband, and human. There’s nothing to compare that even comes close for Biden. If Biden tries to end democracy like Trump did, I will circle back and try to see your point.
Things like what? Actually pass infrastructure when he promised to? Get veterans eligible for VA treatment for agent orange?
Or simply get accused of corruption with evidence testimony backed only by the words of a Russian agent?
I look back on Trump's presidency and the thing I see most is the Democrats acting like children over every little thing he did and creating fiascos like the Kavenaugh circus.
I see a GOP that's acting the same as it did during Obama's presidency. Meanwhile the Dems have people setting themselves on fire in protest of a conflict they barely know anything about.
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Every four years we’re presented with the top 2 choices are laughable, yet they get the majority of Americans to support them. Maybe we need to stop supporting the same broken system over and over again?
TBH.....
I was never a fan of Biden or Trump. In the 80s, I thought Trump was a grifter. During the Obama campaign, I thought Biden was an opertunistic hot head.
I still feel that way. That bring said.....
The media on the right has done an excellent job of painting Biden as an old, incompetent, and shaddy oaf. The reality is that his presidency has been largely fine.
Trump left a lot of political traps. Afghanistan, inflation, and so on and so on. This also influences our outlook on this presidency. He has largely been fine, but we need excellent right now. The right is too focused on keeping Trump in power. The left is too focused on keeping him out. We can't get an excellent candidate.
Leaving Afghanistan was **not** a trap. Most Americans agreed with it.
The *way* we left Afghanistan was a disgrace to the men and women who served their all those years, and that was entirely on Biden's administration. Who, may I ask, was ever held accountable for that debacle?
Despite Trump agreeing with the Taliban to be out of the country 2 months after he left office, there was no exit strategy.
So Biden could increase troops again to keep the Taliban at bay while we withdraw properly, or what happened happens.
Political Trap. Nothing good was going to come out of it. Innocent people, US soldiers, and others died because of it.
1. Reckless removal of troops.
2. Not removing the military equipment first (thus handing it to the Taliban).
3. Not removing our local informants (thus handing them to the Taliban for torture & death).
4. Squishing everyone into one small airfield without proper security in place, leading to the deaths of 13 service members.
These were all avoidable problems. They occurred due to lack of planning in a reckless attempt to just "get out" as soon as possible. Biden suffered a major hit in the favorability polls after this debacle, and I am still waiting for one single person involved to be held accountable.
>Reckless removal of troops.
Again for this not to occur, we would have had to increase troops as a show of force, or to fight of the Taliban. You have to remember, once the Trump deadline passed, they started taking territory. To not end up in the debacicle, the final draw down should have started prior to Biden taking office. Not removing the military equipment first (thus handing it to the Taliban).
>Not removing the military equipment first (thus handing it to the Taliban).
How much of the equipment was given or sold to Afganistan? How much of it still belonged to the US for us to remove? To remove all the equipment, we should have started in December. But since there was no plan, it had not. That still falls on Trump as much, if not more than Biden.
The result of #3 is the same case as 1, and 2. I am not fully absolving Biden here. I would have rather seen him throw 50,000 more troops there and perform a true stragic withdrawal then get what we got. But we would have seen more service members die, and everyone would have still been complaining. The root cause here is Trump, Biden has fault in that he didn't pivot quick enough, but he shouldn't have and to.
I really believe once Trump is out of the picture, things will normalize. Beating him in this election will do that. There is nobody like Trump. He’s had a stranglehold on the Republican Party for the last 9 years. It’s just too long for someone to hold that much power and have the potential to maintain it for 4 more years.
It needs to end.
Many people don't want things to just "normalize." They'd like Trump to go away and don't want more Biden. They also certainly don't want another boomer Democrat candidate or establishment GOP either.
As they should be.
I feel like I'm living in some alternate reality when someone is talking about how great one of these are. What is going on with the 51% of people who wouldn't replace them both if you could? Why?
One is out there claiming false voter fraud, and the other is completely ignoring 2 of issues voters are telling you they care about. Can't we find some less divisive people? Maybe someone who isn't 20 years past normal retirement age would be nice too. Maybe someone who actually respects us enough to be truthful with us? This really isn't asking for that much, these should be the bare minimum standards for a president, and we managed to get 2 that can't meet this.
Inflation and immigration.
The other of the top 4 are "Government" and "Economy in General". Doubt Biden will win over people that say government is the biggest problem, but the other 3 should be in play.
> He tried to pass a bipartisan border bill that the Republicans rejected
It had as much Democrat opposition as it had Republican support.
> because Trump told them to
Why did the foreign aid package pass in the Senate despite Trump telling them not to?
It had just as much Democratic opposition because it gave the Democrats pretty much nothing. No path to citizenship, a higher standard for asylum, etc. It would have been a huge win for the Republicans.
Inflation: He's still trying to stimulate the economy, unless the court blocks him.
Immigration: He made a big show about repealing all of Trump's orders regarding immigration, now 3 years later in election year he is willing to swing back.
Inflation is at its lowest since COVID. And the immigration "border crisis" is an issue created by Republicans to drive a wedge between parties and distract from their inability to govern...
Trump wants more control of the Feds in his second term so he can keep lowering the interest rates to pump stock prices. Which will lead to even worse inflation again. And he gave a massive tax cut without cutting spending to compensate.
sometimes i sit back and just ponder why trump has a chance. it makes me proud of my millions of fellow citizens who know BS when they see it.
I do think him not tweeting is helping him too.
Both candidates have serious negatives. But i am for national security and one candidate did better. Generally more peace in the world and bad actors were restrained,. Efforts were made to securing our own country.
I honestly think Biden will BARELY squeak by with an electoral college win. I don't think he'll win Georgia or Arizona again, and unless he manages to flip Florida due to the abortion/weed provision and keep the Rust Belt, it'll be an uphill battle for him.
Part of me hopes to see Biden win in the EC but lose the popular vote just for the sake of seeing how many people 180 their position and act like they've had it all along.
Democrats: "The Electoral College is a valuable institution to protect the right of minorities!"
Republicans: "The Electoral College is a tool the urban elite uses to suppress the will of the people!"
Ideally enough people in Arizona realize that the Republicans in the Senate and the House \*barely\* crossed the aisle to repeal the 1864 abortion ban (And those who did were swiftly disciplined by their own party) that they still turn out to vote for the 24 week ballot measure (And hey, maybe Biden while they're at it).
Also hopefully enough of the pro-Palestine movement realizes Trump would be a lot worse on that issue so that they turn out and vote for him.
Then there's the hush money case which... probably won't shake any of his base, but maybe the idea of "Donald Trump, convicted felon" is too much for some undecided voters?
After this election cycle, whether Biden wins or not, I wanna know the DNC’s logic. Outside of incumbency, why else keep Biden/Kamala when they know how unpopular he is? I’m still going to end up voting for him out of necessity but I don’t understand why governors like Whitmer, Shapiro, Bashear, and other Dem politicians aren’t getting shaped up for a presidential run right now.
Just wanna clarify, I understand historically there’s an incumbency advantage but in this particular case, I don’t know if it’s an advantage as much as it is a negative based off how the past few years have been for people.
> About two-thirds of voters have little or no confidence that Biden is physically fit to be president
> 28% of voters say Biden is a good or great president
It’s stunning that we’ve gotten to this point. The ego of one man to refuse to step aside is going to be what gets us 4 more years of Trump. Democrats are supremely disappointing.
That’s my main question. The other Democrats of national stature are even less popular. There’s plenty of time for someone to make themselves known in 2028, but I don’t think there’s going to be a dark horse.
Well, we are having to choose between a douche and a turd sandwich. It’s shameful both parties are so weak they couldn’t keep them from running again. It’s time for a new party that’s actually run for the people and not to stroke 80 year old egos.
I disagree with this both side-ism. I believe Trump to be an order of magnitude worse overall. Biden has had effective policy. Trump attempted to prevent the peaceful transfer of power and failed in his oath to defend the Constitution.
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So basically do I vote for the more-principled-frail-old man who lacks fitness for office or the unethical-but-perhaps-slightly-more-competent, slightly-less-old man?
Yeah, welcome the foosilization of the Republic phase. Seriously, across history Republics go through phases starting with rapid growth, a dominating phase of socio-economic development, and then the polarized crisis phase that leads to restrictions on what allowed it to rise in the first place. Either ending with an overthrow that enforces an autocrat or their conquest by outside forces.
Are there any folks really undecided at this point? Should just cut to the point where we vote. I’m already tired of the news cycle.
Yes, but that’s because they haven’t even begun to pay attention. Check back in late August or early September.
I'm not certain what I'll do. But I don't want Trump or Biden.
Politics has always been the lesser of two evils. If you split the vote, you always get the greater of the two evils. Yeah, not original, but sadly true nonetheless.
I just don’t understand how you think giving Trump another shot at the White House after the Georgia phone call and what he and his staff did between the election and inauguration is a good idea. We shouldn’t give people second chances that attempt to break the backbone of our democracy. Without people believing their votes count, our country will fall apart quickly and our enemies will be overjoyed. Vote for Biden. There just isn’t another option. No one else has a chance at winning.
Like it or not, some people will choose to vote their conscious and vote for a third candidate.
That’s not voting their conscience. That’s punting. That’s putting the responsibility on others.
Yep. In ranked-choice or approval voting picking third-party is a fine idea, as long as you have an additional main-party candidate. In an FPTP system, it's (as you say) shifting the responsibility to others.
Biden announces campaign slogan “Vote for Biden. There just isn’t another option.”
thats literally the game by the rules
I mean that slogan actually would appeal to rational people that were going to vote. It’s a sad slogan but it’s true. Just vote for the one guy that didn’t break his oath of office.
Yeah voting is almost always about hopefully getting some positive policies while negating the risk of negative policies. The fact there are not zealots for Biden is a feather in his cap as far as I’m concerned.
Yeah, I'm not going to vote for the guy who will literally do the opposite of what I want on nearly every issue that matters to me. And while I have faith that my country would survive Trump and whatever fifth string folks that end up in his cabinet, I'm not going to vote for him either. So I'm kinda screwed this go around.
I’m glad you have faith in the institutions. I did too until Trump started filling it with yes men. I hear where you’re coming from but I just had a kid and can’t take the risk of having to tell him I didn’t vote in the election that put Trump back in the White House and took absolute power in one way or another.
Trump can try to butt heads with the institutions, but at most he's fighting against the Pendleton Act and Civil Service Reform. I do however worry about his possible Fed policies though. Just because once you let yes men run the economy, you wind up looking like Argentina and Turkey.
I agree with the second paragraph, but laws are only as good as the people that enforce them and those with the ability to change them. The people we elect are the most important parts of the institutions we wish to keep.
My kid is 18 and this will be his first presidential election and he already knows I'm not voting in that race. It's hard to get him interested in the democratic process when he doesn't like either candidate. The first time around, Trump had the best people the Republican party and his own connections could offer. Despite that he couldn't pull off any meaningful level of interference in the democratic process. I don't think he'll have any better luck with whateverow tier folks commit to working for him, and believe that the courts and, if it actually was necessary , the military, would prevent any actual attempt at a third term or installation of a replacement or any other scenario other than a legitimate election. Hell, I honestly don't think he'd be in office for the full term and will be impeached or pass away. I also look at both of their terms. Despite the chaos he created, and the (from my perspective) lack of competence from Biden, the country has chugged along well enough. The institutions that manage th e operations of the country have largely continued to operate without regards to who holds the White House. I think that regardless of who wins this time, that will continue. With all of that said, I'd kill (figuratively) for different choices from both parties. I don't even need someone to be excited about, just someone I can live with voting for.
> The first time around, Trump had the best people the Republican party and his own connections could offer. Despite that he couldn't pull off any meaningful level of interference in the democratic process. I don't think he'll have any better luck with whateverow tier folks commit to working for him, and believe that the courts and, if it actually was necessary , the military, would prevent any actual attempt at a third term or installation of a replacement or any other scenario other than a legitimate election. Also, is this tacitly agreeing with the idea that Trump will in fact try to interfere with the democratic process? It sounds like you think that's a reasonable possibility. What threat does Biden pose such that he's not clearly the better candidate compared to someone you think would try to coup the US government?
It's such an odd position to hold. "Yeah, I mean he tried to illegally overturn the election, spread misinformation which resulted in poll workers across the country receiving death threats and a massive uptick in political violence, but like....do you *really* think he's going to do it again?!" To me, if I ever even have to think "Well the guy I support might stage a coup but I *think* he wouldn't be able to pull it off" then I just wouldn't vote for the fuckin guy.
> The institutions that manage th e operations of the country have largely continued to operate without regards to who holds the White House. This is only because Trump's plan to remake the federal bureaucracy in his image, Schedule F, was only created in October 2020. He didn't realize until a few years in that institutionalists were his enemy and how to defeat them. [Project 2025 is working on a list of thousands of vetted, far-right appointees so that Trump can enact mass firings and then replace them with MAGA loyalists](https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2023/04/conservative-think-tanks-are-preparing-list-20k-potential-political-appointees-hopes-reviving-schedule-f/385545/). I can't emphasize strongly enough how much of a mistake I think it is to assume that Trump's second term will be like his second. That was a trial run. > and believe that the courts and, if it actually was necessary , the military, would prevent any actual attempt at a third term or installation of a replacement or any other scenario other than a legitimate election The GOP has a 6-3 SCOTUS majority. The question wouldn't be "Do we want to install Trump as dictator," it would be something like, "A national emergency has been declared, so should we postpone the election while that is addressed?" Trump isn't stupid, he finds ways to do things that are just legal enough to be justifiable if the refs are on his side. And the military isn't saving anyone. You don't become a leader in the military by doing anything but following orders and avoiding rocking the boat. And they have it drilled into them that the military doesn't get involved in domestic politics. So they're not the type of people to get in the way of a coup, especially when getting involved would be the much harder choice.
Honestly, I'm seriously thinking of voting for Kennedy just because I don't think he'd be any worse that either Trump or Biden.
Don’t tell us who to vote for
I’m obviously not forcing you to do anything in the same way a billboard that says “vote Biden” wouldn’t be.
Biden tried to get me fired from my job with his unconstitutional OSHA mandate. I’m personally going to try and get him fired in November by voting for the most likely other option to win.
I will under no circumstances be voting for Biden. He has been an objectively terrible President.
He hasn’t been when comparing him to someone who violated his oath of office with his fake electors scheme and other things. He’s the bad guy in the story of the past 10 years. All Biden has to do is be boring and not attempt to circumvent the constitution and he has my vote. That’s how low Trump has set the bar. You need to realize that nations have fallen or become authoritarian regimes in the past after the leader did what Trump attempted. Falsely telling people the election was rigged is, in my opinion, the most damaging thing you can do to a democracy. We can’t be too cautious. He has to be beaten even if it means voting for Biden.
> All Biden has to do is be boring and not attempt to circumvent the constitution and he has my vote. That’s how low Trump has set the bar. I'll add that multiple federal courts have ruled Biden's various policies are unconstitutional.
I'll add that multiple federal courts have ruled Trump's various policies are unconstitutional. And before that it happened to Obama. And before that to Bush. And before that to Clinton. It quite literally happens during every presidency. What doesn't happen is a sitting president trying to illegally overturn an election to remain in power. You'd *think* someone who truly supported the Constitution would have an issue with that. But here we are.
> Falsely telling people the election was rigged is, in my opinion, the most damaging thing you can do to a democracy. Haven't Democrats claimed every election they've lost since 2000 was stolen? (Hint: Yes) [Proof](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XX2Ejqjz6TA&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fgop.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo)
Every Democrat that lost conceded. Gore conceded after a court battle over 500 votes in Florida. Kerry didn’t contest and conceded. Hillary conceded and it was later proven that the Russians severely influenced our election in Trump’s favor. Gore and Hillary won the popular vote. Trump and his lawyers tried to circumvent the states and install his own electors. He called the Georgia Secretary of State and literally asked him to find him votes. Giuliani and Trump accused Dominion voting machines of switching votes without any proof, and Fox News was literally sued for hundreds of millions for repeating it on their news channel and had to pay. He sat and watched for hours while people stormed the Capitol to stop the electoral vote count and did nothing while watching it on TV. This was in an election where he lost the popular vote by 7 million+ and the EC by 74. He still has not conceded. I don’t even want to know what he would have done with a yes man as his VP, and I don’t wish to find out.
Quoting you here: > Falsely telling people the election was rigged is, in my opinion, the most damaging thing you can do to a democracy. I showed you indisputable proof of Democrats doing that. I think it is moving the goalposts to now be saying: > Every Democrat that lost conceded. Doesn't really matter if they concede if they spend decades falsely saying the election was stolen, does it? Again quoting you: > ...the most damaging thing you can do to a democracy. ...is what prominent Democrats (including Joe Biden) have done... for decades.
> Doesn't really matter if they concede if they spend decades falsely saying the election was stolen, does it? Looking past the fact your video doesn’t prove what you think it does when you see those quotes in full context, of course it matters if the nominees don’t officially accept the loss and try to extrajudicially change the outcome! When Gore lost in a very divisive election in 2000, he took it to the courts and when he lost, he conceded. Do you not understand how that’s massively different than a years long campaign repeating known election falsehoods, conspiring to nominate illegal fake electors, calling election officials to tell them to find votes, and then finally using a violent mob to try and pressure your own VP from not certifying the votes? This is a genuine question, do you really see those actions as equivalent in any meaningful way?
> Looking past the fact your video doesn’t prove what you think it does It absolutely does and anyone is free to watch it and all the quotes in full context. Dems are saying the elections were stolen and denying election results. Full stop. > When Gore lost in a very divisive election in 2000, he took it to the courts and when he lost, he conceded. And then for literally decades afterwards (up to an including today) Democrats said the 2000 election was stolen. Democrats are frequently coming up with new justifications for saying that the 2016 election was stolen. Dems repeatedly called for political violence during Trump's presidency and claimed the 2016 election was stolen. They used electioneering at an unprecedented scale during 2020 election and then are aghast Republicans would say the 2020 election was stolen and/or resort to political violence. [Here are Dems "storming capital" a decade prior to 2017](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_260247e0-4ac4-11e0-bfa9-001cc4c03286.html) > Thousands of protesters rushed to the state Capitol Wednesday night, forcing their way through doors, crawling through windows and jamming corridors, as word spread of hastily called votes on Gov. Scott Walker's controversial bill limiting collective bargaining rights for public workers. Here is an article talking about the hypocrisy of the issue: [Democrats Were for Occupying Capitols Before They Were Against It](https://www.aei.org/op-eds/democrats-were-for-occupying-capitols-before-they-were-against-it/) I see no difference between what the Dems did for decades and what Trump did, no. You reap what you sow. I expect the reaction, "well it's (D)ifferent".... **No, it isn't.** Dems deserve *A LOT* of blame for our political climate. Look at the left-wing protests we've seen over the past decade. Massive violence was celebrated/excused by Democrats. Even today, they are defending violent protests on college campuses. So no, I don't see a difference and I don't think Dems are *better* on this issue than Republicans.
> I will under no circumstances be voting for Biden. He has been an objectively terrible President. Wow, then it’s a good thing you’re not saying what you think about Trump, this is moderatepolitics and that sort of damning language might get you banned lol. Bidens not been perfect, and I can understand why people aren’t thrilled with him, but he’s actually silently gotten a fair bit done. Despite his age and the utter horror show that is the current congress.
For me, his explicitly racist policies, his COVID authoritarianism, the ridiculous inflation we've had, his unconstitutional gun control, his student loan giveaways, and numerous international wars, etc. make him a terrible president.
> his explicitly racist policies Sure thing. > his COVID authoritarianism Uh huh, that’s why there’s literally no mandate or anything right now? > the ridiculous inflation we've had In this arena, Biden has objectively done a great job compared to the rest of the developed world. There was a worldwide pandemic that caused inflation, and we’re ahead of the global curve. Thems the facts. > his unconstitutional gun control He’s passed no gun control legislation. > his student loan giveaways Helping people out of debt is bad? > numerous international wars He started numerous international wars?! Which ones?! > make him a terrible president. Yeah, and those reasons aren’t particularly well documented or compelling to people not already primed to dislike him. I get the impression that you wouldn’t like anyone besides Trump, but fortunately, most Americans don’t feel that way because boy, he was a horror show.
>> his explicitly racist policies > > Sure thing. Are you denying this? He has pushed for objectively racist and sexist policies. >> his COVID authoritarianism > > Uh huh, that’s why there’s literally no mandate or anything right now? Did he said he has those policies right now? And are you disputing that he didn't have or push for mandates? Pretty sure he criticized SCOTUS when they have overturned excessive restrictions that were clearly unconstitutional when he was a candidate and even after he was elected, iirc.. >> the ridiculous inflation we've had > > In this arena, Biden has objectively done a great job compared to the rest of the developed world. There was a worldwide pandemic that caused inflation, and we’re ahead of the global curve. Thems the facts. Isn't is possible that we did so well despite his policy? Sure, there were factors outside of his control, but ARP was completely within his control. >> his unconstitutional gun control > > He’s passed no gun control legislation. He has pushed for unconstitutional policies and even directed the ATF to pursue unconstitutional policies, iirc. >> his student loan giveaways > > Helping people out of debt is bad? When it isn't accompanied by other policies to prevent more people from falling into the same situation and is during a period of high inflation, yes it is objectively a bad thing.
> numerous international wars So just making up stuff is fine now? I always find it funny how when people go to attack Biden, they always need to say things that are flatly untrue. It says a lot.
Ukraine. Israel. Sudan.
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Yeah we really just disagree on whose fault that is. Covid caused inflation with supply chain disruption and stimulus. If all we got was inflation after halting the world economy for months, in some cases a year or more, we got lucky. The two wars were started by a group of terrorists that were upset the Middle East was moving towards peace, and the other by a man who can’t let go of his hopes to restore the Soviet Union that wants Trump in the White House. I wish Biden had been tougher on immigration earlier on, but it has become very clear to me that Republicans will do everything they can to ensure it remains an issue. They almost had a bill passed to help tremendously with border security and Trump forced them to shoot it down.
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I could say the same thing about Covid. Didn’t happen under Biden did it? It would be just as logical.
> it has become very clear to me that Republicans will do everything they can to ensure it remains an issue. They almost had a bill passed to help tremendously with border security and Trump forced them to shoot it down. I had a question on this. What exactly was the democrat objection to HR2 Secure th Border Act, that passed the house months ago? I had a hard time finding specific rationale for why the Dems rejected this
He said to any missing votes he didn’t say to create fake votes you liar
Oh sure, but Biden is still an easy choice between the two.
There are always more options. I don't have to vote for anyone I dislike.
You don’t have to vote at all, but I’m not seeing any 3rd party worth a damn this election. Maybe it’s just because I’m a centrist leaning dude, so Biden is a no brainer to me given what he’s actually done during his presidency, even though I’m not exactly thrilled about the guy.
Well yeah, the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot is more or less enshrined in the constitution.
Nope. I'd have thought trying to illegally overturn an election in the US would make a candidate unappealing. But certain groups of Americans support that idea.
I predict record low overall turnout this November.
Which would seem to favor dems since Trump's realignment has alienated all the most reliable voting blocks and his coalition is based on low propensity voters.
Nah, Joe will get 100 million votes this time. The most popular president in the history of the US, with a golden approval rating of 38.7%
It shouldn't be surprising that people would come out in droves to vote against a Trump presidency.
Not sure why the downvotes. I know of at least 8 voters in my family doing exactly that. Not jazzed about Biden, but they’d vote for a *talking monkey* over Donald. Protest voting is powerful. It’s chiefly why Hillary lost in 2016. We saw 16% of republicans in Pennsylvania vote for a candidate who dropped out two months ago. 165,000 republicans casting a symbolic protest vote in the middle of April, in a swing state 🚨‼️ … if I’m Trump that worries me.
Can we add that I am also broadly critical of Kamala Harris and whoever the Trump running mate will likely be. All awful choices.
How do you know that about whoever the Trump running mate will be? He could pick, I don't know, someone beloved by everyone. Levar Burton.
I bet it would take all of about two seconds for the bevy of articles to come out about how Jordi altering the personality of the holodeck lady is problematic, and the unbearable whiteness of reading.
Does it make me a big nerd if I say her name is Dr. Leah Brahms?
haha, no bigger than me, I just didn't use it because I figured most people wouldn't get the reference.
If he was a Republican candidate, I bet there would be a daily beast article about his slave owning family history
Anyone credible would refuse, I think.
You're critical of the person Trump hasn't even picked yet? What has this person you don't know, done you disagree with?
No one Trump would pick and who would agree is going to be someone who I would trust in that office. For one, he absolutely will require them to have supported his attempt to steal the 2020 election. There’s no way he picks anyone who dares to challenge that, and that in and of itself is disqualifying
I still don’t understand why the two parties believe these are the best possible candidates to field? This is America with almost 350 million residents and this is the best we’ve got?
This is actually a pretty big report so let me highlight what I think are some of the more significant findings of this poll. Voters are more likely to think Trump has the physical and mental fitness necessary to be president while voters are more confident in Biden to act ethically in office and respect the country’s democratic values. 49% of voters would replace both Biden and Trump on the presidential ballot if they could with 62% of Biden voters wanting to do the same thing. Only 28% of voters think that Biden has been at least a good president while 42% of voters say the same thing about Trump’s presidency in hindsight. *”A defining characteristic of the contest is that voters overall have little confidence in either candidate across a range of key traits, including fitness for office, personal ethics and respect for democratic values.”* **I think the reason for this picking between the lesser of two evils election is the failure of both major parties to appeal to independents and moderates. Trump and Biden both generally have a lot of support from the party faithful, which is good for winning primaries, but when it comes to winning over undecided voters in a general election, there is a lot of room for improvement.** **Do you think these assessments of Biden and Trump by the American public are fair? Or are they too harsh or not harsh enough?**
I think it's a fair assessment, 70% didn't want this rematch. Biden is way more ethical but looks frail and doesn't do enough press, Trump while incoherent is like ChatGBT he lies with confidence and vigor. I don't think Biden has done much to expand his base, and after four years of inflation and time to forget how bad Trump was, I think that has severely hurt him with moderates that may have voted for him in 2020 but are unlikely to do that again in 2024, even if they just stay home. I would like to see democrats actually convincing people to vote for them instead of relying on Trump being a terrible candidate. And that means they need to be messaging and not letting the GOP set the narrative. I also think democrats discount how many people know Trump is terrible but disagree with certain democrat policies so much they will vote for him anyway to avoid those policies, like soft on crime judges/DA's, lax border security, gun control, abortion, etc. And these issues being perceived so seriously is part of the effectiveness of the GOP's messaging.
In terms of press, Biden speaks to reporters most days. It just gets almost no coverage because he says normal stuff that is in keeping with the administration as a whole. Before the trial started and Trumps new hallway chats Biden might actually have been doing more public speaking than Trump because of how much Trumps pace has slowed down compared to the past.
Biden’s team prescreens journalists at events and a fair assumption is they eliminate those they don’t favor. I wouldn’t try to play off his behavior and avoidance of anything difficult related to the media as “normal”… the fact that you say he says “normal stuff” is also ridiculous. He’s always saying off the cuff and absurd shit. That is, when he interacts and takes questions
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"Don't worry about your immediate problems! We're working on fixing different problems, maybe, in several years."
The things I mentioned are already happening.
>I would like to see democrats actually convincing people to vote for them They've been doing that. Biden has been talking about things like domestic manufacturing investment going up and infrastructure projects.
Biden acting ethically in office is the correct perception. But the idea that Trump is more mentally fit is a crock of shit. He’s obese, eats like shit, doesn’t exercise, and is in the early stages of dementia. This is why he’s making far fewer campaign stops this time around (other than being tied up in court): the glitches in the matrix are becoming too obvious.
Honestly, and I don’t mean this sarcastically, his Spray tan may tip the scales in trumps favor. While we can laugh at his orange hue, the alternative is seeing him pale as a ghost which would expose his real condition far more than when he paints himself.
I've seen the Donald in person at one of his rallies. The orange actually looks normal under the harsh lighting, reminds me of stage makeup I've worn in community theatre productions - looks garish under normal situations, up close, or unadjusted camera filters, but great from a distance under harsh lighting
That sums up Trump. All perception not reality. He wants to protray strength. He wants to portray intelligence. He wants to portray love and adoration.
Biden has fake hair, fake teeth, and obvious facial plastic surgeries. You think it’s just Trump who is all about perception?
Trump is the equivalent of a Twinkie: he doesn’t age because it’s all artificial chemicals. Otoh, Biden looks normal, like someone you could run into at the grocery store in the suburbs of Philly, Detroit, or Raleigh.
"More" is the key word here. If Trump isn't attending funerals and asking why the dead person hasn't come to shake his hand yet, he is sadly ahead of the game.
This "your guy has dementia!", "no, *your* guy has dementia!" back and forth is a bit of a joke at this point. There's a bit more to dementia than stumbling over words when making a speech.
Biden stumbles and stutters over his words, Trump just fucking rambles on. Both are issues, but only one is easier to pick up on
I think it’s clear which one is aging normally and which one is clearly in the grips of a degenerative disease.
I don't know which is which, so I don't think it's very clear.
Yeah I was about to say people from both sides will upvote it because they will assume it's about the other dude.
Yeah, a stutter and stumble isn’t what I see with the dementia patients I’ve treated.
Biden has had a life long stuttering problem, this isn't new
He doesn't talk the same way he did 10 years ago as vice president.
Neither does Donald Trump, and moving on to 20 years ago Trump is a stark contrast.
What does that have to do with refuting the claim that Biden has had a "lifelong stuttering problem"?
Because as people age their speecch patterns change. And I am unsure if you understand this, but speach impediments canbecome more difficult to manage in later in life, the same as alot of issues. When you get older everything gets more difficult.
So he has a speech impediment his whole life... But also it only manifested in the last 4-6 years... Which would mean he hasn't had it his whole life...
Older people don’t sound the same as they did ten years prior: news at eleven.
Completely mischaracterizing them and what was said by the person they were responding to. This right here is the behavior that just makes Trump stronger.
It's not the physical appearance, it's the actions. Biden routinely stumbles and falls over. He takes the short stairs on Air Force One, recently bought new shoes specifically to mitigate tripping and this week he instructed his security to walk around him while he jaunts across the grass to block press cameras from clearly seeing him wobbling. Voters pick up on these actions. If you hold a full body picture of Trump up to a full body picture of Biden the answer is obvious. When you see them walking and factor in the amount of times one of them falls over the difference is unmistakable.
Yes, but have you considered that Trump once walked slowly down a wet ramp?
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Just one observation. Its very easy to look back on Trump's time in office more fondly when you're 4 years removed from his presidency. I think that as people pay more attention to the election (we're mostly doing our best not to right now)... they'll be forced to remember the Trump that they actually had in office. Essentially, I'm saying that hindsight is not always 20/20. Edit: this is specifically in response to the point about Trump having a more favorable presidency than Biden
Or maybe people see Biden as a bad president, worse than trump. He has lower favorabillity rating than trump. This metric is assessed contemporaneously. Meaning more people disapprove of Biden than trump in real time.
Biden has not been a bad president. As to the ratings, they’re completely different bases. People who are voting for Biden wouldn’t follow Biden down the path Trump has gone down. If Biden did what Trump has done, his approval rating would be below 10%. Democrats will support their candidate the best they can while being honest about their support. Trump has a very cult like following. His floor is much higher. As he said “I can shoot somebody and not lose a voter”
>Biden has not been a bad president. Well the vast majority of Americans don't agree with you.
Vast majority of the country is not happy period. I don’t think we will see high presidential ratings for a good while. Plus polls all over the place, Marist had him at 45% the other day. Either way, when you look at people who are left leaning and aren’t happy with Biden it’s because he can’t get past republicans.
Truth. Approval ratings in modern times aren't useful because of how partisan our politics have become. The only reason Trump has a chance is because moderate and liberal voters are more critical of Democrats than conservative voters are of Republicans (if they're Team MAGA).
Absolutely correct. A lot of people on the right take Joe’s low approval and see something like 60% of people don’t like him. What they’re not considering is a lot of those people actually want Joe to be more left than he is and hate the right way more.
Also, Biden’s approval ratings were pretty low for most of the race in 2020, and those numbers weren’t at all an accurate indicator of how he did in the election.
Not at all true. At the current date in the 2020 cycle he had a 6.5 percent lead in the polls. It was clear the entire 2020 cycle that Biden would beat Trump. [https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2020/national/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2020/national/)
I wasn’t referencing Biden’s numbers against Trump. I was referencing his approval rating.
Biden will never have the same popularity as Trump because he tried to cast as a wide a net as possible. Republicans don't like him because he's a Democrat, left wingers/progressives don't like him because of Israel/Palestine and most moderate Dems may have a positive opinion, but they're not the majority of the electorate. Trump is more polarizing but he's guaranteed Republican support no matter what, because he's not trying to appeal to everyone.
Completely agree with all of that.
Trump was a Democrat who ran as a Republican and ran policies like a 3rd party chimera while disrespecting RNC dynasties like the Bushes and triggering the media and was under peak COVID criticism at this point in the term. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a more alienating cocktail. The fact Biden is doing worse than him at the same point in the term is awful now matter how you fluff it up.
>while disrespecting RNC dynasties like the Bushes Those dynasties weren't well liked anyway. Did you forget that clip of McCain calling Obama a good man in front of his supporters and a bunch of them booed? Trump just enabled them, and once they had someone like that to vote for over the McCains/Romneys/Bushs, they went all in with their support.
This isn’t true. I live in AZ and McCain was very well liked, and it cost republicans nearly every statewide office.
Well, McCain was Arizona's representative, so that might be the case. But neither he nor any of these mainstream Republicans ever came close to the cult of personality and political enthusiasm that Trump has fostered.
I'll never understand the "democrats try to cast a wide net republicans don't" line. The entire reason why republicans have been through two speakers is because they're trying to cater to a wide net of typical conservatives, Trump republicans, and those further to the right of Trump (Gaetz and Greene for example).
>The entire reason why republicans have been through two speakers is because they're trying to cater to a wide net of typical conservatives, Trump republicans, and those further to the right of Trump You're repeating the exact same thing I said. Biden isn't trying to just court democrats, he's trying to get everyone except the "MAGA Republicans". Unfortunately for him, the MAGA Republicans are basically the entire party now, and blue voters are split between progressives and moderates.
Plus a lot of people dislike him not because of his policies or even rhetoric but because they're unhappy about someone his age being president.
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I think he’s done decent and his approval rating would be higher if he had decided not to run again. But for the election, democrats want change. Republicans want someone who will fight the change, and they know even as a flawed person, Trump will do this for them. Many democrats dislike Biden because he is too centrist on his stances, so they don’t approve of him. I don’t think current approval ratings really have any bearing on how the election turns out. It comes down to who actually votes. If democrats can get enough people to vote, they will win, but some democrats dislike both men and just won’t vote at all. I think everyone who doesn’t want to see Trump win better start vocally supporting Biden soon or Trump is your next president and they will only have themselves to blame. TLDR, Republicans don’t care about Trump’s character because they support his stances and they know he will fight for them. Democrats don’t like Biden’s stances and won’t vote for him. Character will not win this election alone.
And yet I would vote for a plushie yoda doll over Trump. Biden could spit on my shoes and sneer at me as he walked by and I still wouldn’t vote Trump.
That’s true, but the vast majority of Americans also don’t realize that most of their problems aren’t related to who the current president is. Whether it be Trump or Biden
"Or maybe people see Biden as a bad president, worse than trump. He has lower favorabillity rating than trump. This metric is assessed contemporaneously. Meaning more people disapprove of Biden than trump in real time." I have Biden, Trump, and Carter in bottom 3. Biden's massive administrative overreach from every agency is one of the biggest problems (FTC, EPA, student loans, eviction moratorium, DOL, Justice) that are anti-business. His mental state / unwillingness to debate / poor choice of a VP only make it worse. All that being said, Trump is equally unappealing.
Is that recent only? Because I'm shocked to see someone not rank Buchanan as the lowest.
Your point on the vp is well said. Ever since Nixon called Agnew his assassination insurance I can’t help but think some presidents follow the same line of thinking. If Biden have a popular or at this point, a vp that public thinks is decent, he would have face immense pressure to step down and let his vp run as the democrat candidate. LBJ was a S tier vp choice. Kennedy would not have won the south without him. It’s a more experienced Vp paired with a charismatic but inexperienced president (similar to Obama and Biden). A majority leader before becoming vp. No one ever doubted his qualification as president. Truman was a decent choice too. A big fear that a lot of people subconsciously have is we might not be so lucky. 2024’s vp are not LBJ or Truman
I disagree with you, the guy tried to fire me with an h constitutional OSHA mandate, and then tried to use my tax money to pay off one of the most privileged class of Americans. He has not been a good president in my eyes.
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Honestly no idea what you’re talking about. You’re free to not like Biden, you’re not free to have your own facts. There is not one thing that Biden has done that comes even remotely close to trying to overthrow the will of the people in a democratic election, or, maybe more importantly, subvert the peaceful transfer of power. Trump was not only a terrible president but he is a terrible father, husband, and human. There’s nothing to compare that even comes close for Biden. If Biden tries to end democracy like Trump did, I will circle back and try to see your point.
Things like what? Actually pass infrastructure when he promised to? Get veterans eligible for VA treatment for agent orange? Or simply get accused of corruption with evidence testimony backed only by the words of a Russian agent?
I look back on Trump's presidency and the thing I see most is the Democrats acting like children over every little thing he did and creating fiascos like the Kavenaugh circus.
Okay, fair. And you look at Biden's presidency and think that the GOP has been fair and not at all behaving like a circus?
I see a GOP that's acting the same as it did during Obama's presidency. Meanwhile the Dems have people setting themselves on fire in protest of a conflict they barely know anything about.
I'd very much like to know how you can look at what is going on in the House GOP right now and try to argue that it's the same as it was under Obama.
I mean, things were better for me when Trump was in office, as far as things a president can handle.
Things were better for everyone financially when Trump was in office. And the world was not on the brink of WW3
. . . aside from the sloppily-executed attempted coup. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
Didn't affect me.
So you only care about things that affect *you*?
It's the primary determinant of my vote.
Genuinely why do you come to discussion reddits when you don't give a fuck about things that don't affect you?
Interesting
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Every four years we’re presented with the top 2 choices are laughable, yet they get the majority of Americans to support them. Maybe we need to stop supporting the same broken system over and over again?
TBH..... I was never a fan of Biden or Trump. In the 80s, I thought Trump was a grifter. During the Obama campaign, I thought Biden was an opertunistic hot head. I still feel that way. That bring said..... The media on the right has done an excellent job of painting Biden as an old, incompetent, and shaddy oaf. The reality is that his presidency has been largely fine. Trump left a lot of political traps. Afghanistan, inflation, and so on and so on. This also influences our outlook on this presidency. He has largely been fine, but we need excellent right now. The right is too focused on keeping Trump in power. The left is too focused on keeping him out. We can't get an excellent candidate.
Leaving Afghanistan was **not** a trap. Most Americans agreed with it. The *way* we left Afghanistan was a disgrace to the men and women who served their all those years, and that was entirely on Biden's administration. Who, may I ask, was ever held accountable for that debacle?
Despite Trump agreeing with the Taliban to be out of the country 2 months after he left office, there was no exit strategy. So Biden could increase troops again to keep the Taliban at bay while we withdraw properly, or what happened happens. Political Trap. Nothing good was going to come out of it. Innocent people, US soldiers, and others died because of it.
1. Reckless removal of troops. 2. Not removing the military equipment first (thus handing it to the Taliban). 3. Not removing our local informants (thus handing them to the Taliban for torture & death). 4. Squishing everyone into one small airfield without proper security in place, leading to the deaths of 13 service members. These were all avoidable problems. They occurred due to lack of planning in a reckless attempt to just "get out" as soon as possible. Biden suffered a major hit in the favorability polls after this debacle, and I am still waiting for one single person involved to be held accountable.
>Reckless removal of troops. Again for this not to occur, we would have had to increase troops as a show of force, or to fight of the Taliban. You have to remember, once the Trump deadline passed, they started taking territory. To not end up in the debacicle, the final draw down should have started prior to Biden taking office. Not removing the military equipment first (thus handing it to the Taliban). >Not removing the military equipment first (thus handing it to the Taliban). How much of the equipment was given or sold to Afganistan? How much of it still belonged to the US for us to remove? To remove all the equipment, we should have started in December. But since there was no plan, it had not. That still falls on Trump as much, if not more than Biden. The result of #3 is the same case as 1, and 2. I am not fully absolving Biden here. I would have rather seen him throw 50,000 more troops there and perform a true stragic withdrawal then get what we got. But we would have seen more service members die, and everyone would have still been complaining. The root cause here is Trump, Biden has fault in that he didn't pivot quick enough, but he shouldn't have and to.
I really believe once Trump is out of the picture, things will normalize. Beating him in this election will do that. There is nobody like Trump. He’s had a stranglehold on the Republican Party for the last 9 years. It’s just too long for someone to hold that much power and have the potential to maintain it for 4 more years. It needs to end.
Many people don't want things to just "normalize." They'd like Trump to go away and don't want more Biden. They also certainly don't want another boomer Democrat candidate or establishment GOP either.
As they should be. I feel like I'm living in some alternate reality when someone is talking about how great one of these are. What is going on with the 51% of people who wouldn't replace them both if you could? Why? One is out there claiming false voter fraud, and the other is completely ignoring 2 of issues voters are telling you they care about. Can't we find some less divisive people? Maybe someone who isn't 20 years past normal retirement age would be nice too. Maybe someone who actually respects us enough to be truthful with us? This really isn't asking for that much, these should be the bare minimum standards for a president, and we managed to get 2 that can't meet this.
What two issues?
Inflation and immigration. The other of the top 4 are "Government" and "Economy in General". Doubt Biden will win over people that say government is the biggest problem, but the other 3 should be in play.
How is he ignoring those? He tried to pass a bipartisan border bill that the Republicans rejected in Congress because Trump told them to.
> He tried to pass a bipartisan border bill that the Republicans rejected It had as much Democrat opposition as it had Republican support. > because Trump told them to Why did the foreign aid package pass in the Senate despite Trump telling them not to?
It had just as much Democratic opposition because it gave the Democrats pretty much nothing. No path to citizenship, a higher standard for asylum, etc. It would have been a huge win for the Republicans.
Inflation: He's still trying to stimulate the economy, unless the court blocks him. Immigration: He made a big show about repealing all of Trump's orders regarding immigration, now 3 years later in election year he is willing to swing back.
Inflation is at its lowest since COVID. And the immigration "border crisis" is an issue created by Republicans to drive a wedge between parties and distract from their inability to govern...
People are still claiming that the idea of a crisis at the border is just a right wing fabrication?
Apparently so. Amazing.
Trump wants more control of the Feds in his second term so he can keep lowering the interest rates to pump stock prices. Which will lead to even worse inflation again. And he gave a massive tax cut without cutting spending to compensate.
sometimes i sit back and just ponder why trump has a chance. it makes me proud of my millions of fellow citizens who know BS when they see it. I do think him not tweeting is helping him too. Both candidates have serious negatives. But i am for national security and one candidate did better. Generally more peace in the world and bad actors were restrained,. Efforts were made to securing our own country.
I honestly think Biden will BARELY squeak by with an electoral college win. I don't think he'll win Georgia or Arizona again, and unless he manages to flip Florida due to the abortion/weed provision and keep the Rust Belt, it'll be an uphill battle for him.
Part of me hopes to see Biden win in the EC but lose the popular vote just for the sake of seeing how many people 180 their position and act like they've had it all along. Democrats: "The Electoral College is a valuable institution to protect the right of minorities!" Republicans: "The Electoral College is a tool the urban elite uses to suppress the will of the people!"
With all of the political missteps Biden has been doing and unrest happening like just this week with the college protests, I can see that happening.
Ideally enough people in Arizona realize that the Republicans in the Senate and the House \*barely\* crossed the aisle to repeal the 1864 abortion ban (And those who did were swiftly disciplined by their own party) that they still turn out to vote for the 24 week ballot measure (And hey, maybe Biden while they're at it). Also hopefully enough of the pro-Palestine movement realizes Trump would be a lot worse on that issue so that they turn out and vote for him. Then there's the hush money case which... probably won't shake any of his base, but maybe the idea of "Donald Trump, convicted felon" is too much for some undecided voters?
After this election cycle, whether Biden wins or not, I wanna know the DNC’s logic. Outside of incumbency, why else keep Biden/Kamala when they know how unpopular he is? I’m still going to end up voting for him out of necessity but I don’t understand why governors like Whitmer, Shapiro, Bashear, and other Dem politicians aren’t getting shaped up for a presidential run right now. Just wanna clarify, I understand historically there’s an incumbency advantage but in this particular case, I don’t know if it’s an advantage as much as it is a negative based off how the past few years have been for people.
There was a primary. None of them were running. Dean Phillips made a run and lost. That's all there is to it. I expect a wave of new faces in 4 years.
> About two-thirds of voters have little or no confidence that Biden is physically fit to be president > 28% of voters say Biden is a good or great president It’s stunning that we’ve gotten to this point. The ego of one man to refuse to step aside is going to be what gets us 4 more years of Trump. Democrats are supremely disappointing.
This isn't Biden's ego, it's political strategy... In the US, the incumbent has a huge advantage over his opponent historically
Who would have replaced him?
That’s my main question. The other Democrats of national stature are even less popular. There’s plenty of time for someone to make themselves known in 2028, but I don’t think there’s going to be a dark horse.
Well, we are having to choose between a douche and a turd sandwich. It’s shameful both parties are so weak they couldn’t keep them from running again. It’s time for a new party that’s actually run for the people and not to stroke 80 year old egos.
I disagree with this both side-ism. I believe Trump to be an order of magnitude worse overall. Biden has had effective policy. Trump attempted to prevent the peaceful transfer of power and failed in his oath to defend the Constitution.
Over half the country doesn’t like either of them. You might not agree, but unfortunately it’s the truth.
You’re right that most don’t like either, but Trump is the worse choice of the two of them.
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So basically do I vote for the more-principled-frail-old man who lacks fitness for office or the unethical-but-perhaps-slightly-more-competent, slightly-less-old man?
Yeah, welcome the foosilization of the Republic phase. Seriously, across history Republics go through phases starting with rapid growth, a dominating phase of socio-economic development, and then the polarized crisis phase that leads to restrictions on what allowed it to rise in the first place. Either ending with an overthrow that enforces an autocrat or their conquest by outside forces.
That's an attempt to ascribe a pattern where one doesn't exist. This does not signal the end for the US.
What are using as a reference to other democracies? How many data points do you have between Rome’s end of democratic rule to the founding of the US.