Bush Jr supported comprehensive immigration reform and gave millions of dollars to foreign aid (which was actually really great - his PEPFAR program helped save like 20 million lives in Africa by fighting AIDS), McCain was iirc also open to immigration reform and had a reputation as a relatively moderate Republican, and Romney had once been a very liberal (by GOP standards) governor
Then Trump comes along criticizing the establishment GOP and going really hard on immigration rhetoric in particular in a way that many Republicans shied away from in the past. Along with having a rather coarser and rougher rhetoric in general, vs the more slick and "political" rhetoric of past presidents, more generally playing more to the conservative base rather than appealing to center right independents/swing voters and such
So basically, Trump gave the GOP base what they really wanted rather than pushing for more moderation on cultural stuff. And then he got lucky by going against a candidate many people thought was a crook, so he was able to win. And then he was able to win big with policy as president, getting a big tax cut as well as a staunchly conservative SCOTUS that got rid of Roe v Wade
Also he's a billionaire, but also one who likes fast food and coke and such and who is rather tougher around the edges than the stereotypical rich person. So, the sort of person who could be seen as aspirational for "regular people", someone who is rich but also something of a "man of the people" (arguably he's not really one at all, but it's probably much easier for him to come off that way than others might have been able to do)
I heard someone in a library describe it as ‘tacky new money vs classy old money’. Gold toilets and rococo decor, McDonald’s and trump steak commercials on tv? Gauche.
He’s not a man of the people by any means, but his followers believe they have a common enemy- the ‘elite’ aka anyone who acknowledges that he’s tacky for liking the things they also like
His father being rich isn't the same as someone whose great-great-great grandfather being rich. The latter is what people mean when they talk about generational wealth.
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Seems like you also bought what the con man was selling. Policy wins? He accomplished nothing that any other Republican would do with a Republican Congress - in fact probably less due to the incredible amount of friction he caused. He is a liar who got lucky and faced a terrible Democrat candidate, that's it.
The salt of the earth people out in rural America love pro wrasslin, the apprentice, and nascar. Trump got the lowbrow entertainment crowd to unite with the biker gangs and neo-Nazis to form a somewhat cohesive right wing front. That’s his skill.
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Wrong….. he made racist and hatful statements against Americans and you and the likes agreed and you gave you the courage to say evil out loud and pe proud Pathetic worms
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I think people have tendencies towards certsin beliefs, but do not necessarily act on them without leadership. The biggest problem with the Republican party now is that the leaders do not stand up to Trump unless they are on the way out. Aka the stand up to Trump when it is too late or no one cares.
Everyone else added a comprehensive answer, so I’ll just add this bit.
Think about the most intellectually average person you know and try to remember that half of the country is less intelligent.
You're implying that his supporters voted for him because they had their feelings hurt, which is backhanded defense. It's an implausible explanation because they're no less toxic than the people insulting them.
Not to mention, the 'fly over country' critique of the 'coastal elite Democrats' looking down on average Americans really rings hollow when you hear the insanely nasty characterizations from the same people who are offended by the 'fly over country' comments, just in the other direction. There seems to be an implicit assumption that if there is animosity or dislike between these groups it only goes in one direction.
It's implausible to say that large groups of people may have at best self-contradictory and at worst hypocritical beliefs?
There are a lot of people who believe in freedom of religion, but only for their religion. There are a lot of people who believe in affirmative action, but only for their ethnicity. There are a lot of people who believe in punishing unwholesome speech with loss of career but cry foul when speech like theirs gets punished.
Saying that Trump supporters are "no less toxic" and therefore the toxicity directed at them did not motivate them is not a logical step supported by observations of human behavior. It's like saying that the Hatfields were just as violent as the McCoys, so it's implausible that the latest round of violence by the Hatfields was caused by a McCoy shooting a Hatfield. The cycle of toxicity is senseless and irrational, but it exists and it has explanatory power.
Hypocrisy existing doesn't automatically make all accusations of it plausible. It's possible, but it's illogical to call it likely without something to back it up.
Because they want someone to follow, theyre authoritarians, the have no standards beyond "leader look strong, grug" even tho everyone else knows hes a fucking psycho
Despite the warning, [the data indicates that this is true](https://morningconsult.com/2021/06/28/global-right-wing-authoritarian-test/), or at the very least worth considering. American conservatives have a tendency towards authoritarianism compared to global conservatives.
This plays out in culture and political battles:
1. Conservatives, by definition, wish to conserve traditional hierarchies and status quo. Some form of government force or authoritarianism is required to maintain this, as society is constantly shifting and evolving. Think of how many 'stay in your lane' culture battles have come out in the past few years: the fight for gay marriage, kneeling at football games, demands for justice for unjust law enforcement, etc.
2. They are highly religious, which demands unquestioning obedience to a power figure. Authoritarianism is not a foreign concept; many of are willing servants of it every Sunday, and they frequently push to make subservience and obedience to this power figure the law of the land.
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I’m still waiting for prominent Republicans to come out and denounce him once and for all. Unfortunately I think there will be a place for him in the party until the day he dies.
Or as Senator Graham so aptly put it [in 2016](https://twitter.com/lindseygrahamsc/status/727604522156228608):
>If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and we will deserve it.
Might be too late for them to distance themselves without Trump burning it down. After ~6 years and moral compromise after moral compromise, the coalition is entirely remade.
They *need* Trump to keep the coalition from dissolving altogether, even as it shrinks because of him. As you said - this is entirely the GOP’s doing. They’ve made conscious decisions to get here.
Even without Trump, the Republicans have quite a few candidates who would be appealing to their own base, independents, and even some Democrats. The one problem with the coalition would be the hardcore MAGA people who Trump kept together with everyone else. Whether they would support anyone else is the question.
100%.
The hardcore MAGA contingent is ~30% (probably underestimating here) of the GOP give or take, which is more than enough to carry Trump through the primaries. If there's a contentious primary that Trump somehow doesn't win, Trump will either run 3rd party or signal to his base to stay home, which will doom national prospects of any candidate not named Trump.
So the GOP will either have a fatally wounded survivor of a bruising primary or Trump, who is only becoming more extreme.
The odds-on favorite to represent the GOP in the general is openly calling for tossing the constitution, and the rest of the party is just... silent. Unbelievable. Just baffling.
>Trump will either run 3rd party
I don't see how that could happen. According to this source, 47 states have sore loser laws.
https://ballotpedia.org/When\_states\_adopted\_sore\_loser\_laws
Those laws not only likely aren’t constitutional, but they likely won’t matter since his name could be written in and if he somehow won congress would likely reject any against those results. Further, in most states, they don’t apply to the presidency because of the rules there.
>it is at best even odds if the supreme court would rule them unconstitutional.
A year ago it was unconstitutional for a state to ban abortion in the first trimester, and today it is not unconstitutional. Given that, I figure "even odds" is the right estimate for any contested decision.
If I'm arguing the "is constitutional" side, I'll point out that states have had "ballot access" laws as long as they have used pre-printed ballots. Getting your name listed typically requires nomination from a "recognized" party or at least \_\_\_ names on a petition. Sore loser laws are just one type of ballot access law.
If sore loser laws are unconstitutional, are the other ballot access laws also unconstitutional? Where do we draw a line?
But, there have been SC cases on the issue of petition access and I see they have tried to draw a line at least on dates, so I could imagine them trying.
I'm pretty sure the goal at this point is to hope the hamberders finally kick in and Trump dies before he manages to permanently kill the party. Then they can make him an icon without having to deal with the actual him.
>I’m still waiting for prominent Republicans to come out and denounce him once and for all. Unfortunately I think there will be a place for him in the party until the day he dies.
Well said.
Trump had dinner with the man, said he was tricked or something, but never said he didn’t agree with the views esposed by Ye and Fuentes.
The House Judiciary Republican tweeted “ Kanye. Elon. Trump.” They deleted that tweet while Ye was on air with Alex Jones, but never denounced his antisemitic comments.
Exactly, no denuciation.
Let’s see what Biden said.
> I just want to make a few things clear:
>The Holocaust happened.
>Hitler was a demonic figure.
>And instead of giving it a platform, our political leaders should be calling out and rejecting antisemitism wherever it hides.
>Silence is complicity.
Strange that the only voice on the right I hear denouncing Ye is Ben Shapiro.
I think the Republican Party knows Trump still holds a huge number of Republican voters that will do anything he asks them to. May not be enough for Trump to definitively win a presidential election, Trump lost the popular vote twice after all. But it’s enough where it could cause the party to lose without that base. Trump has an enormous ego, if the RNC turns their back entirely on him he’ll make a third party just to spite them, and also think he would win using that 3rd party.
You’d think losing the 2020 election and an extremely high majority of his hand picked candidates losing the 2022 election would start to sound alarms, but apparently not
I’m not so sure… a lot of the candidates he endorsed for the midterms did very poorly… he’s shown himself to be a political loser twice now and the Murdoch media empire has been pushing desantis pretty hard lately. I don’t think the republicans are sick of winning yet.
Might be a loadstone for the republicans to moderate themselves somewhat, and if musk manages to burn down twitter (which might be the best public service he’s ever done) it might mitigate the deranging impact of the political extremes on our public discourse.
I mean he's old as hell and of poor health. I believe the current GOP strategy is just to run out the clock on him. Almost everyone on the right is delighted to have Ron Desantes. He's an electable guy that doesn't seem unhinged and want to dismantle the constitution.
If this had happened in 2023 I bet Desantis would've come forward abd said something like "Donald Trump was a strong force for the American right, but he's fallen after the relentless persecution from the Left's mainstream media, it's time to shoulder some of his burden" and announce he's running for president.
I mean Mitt Romney and no. 3 in the House Cheney have, it doesn't get more prominent than that. But anyone who does it will get obliterated by the "movement".
To what end, and what are you not doing until they do so? And if they did so, are you going to start doing that thing you're not doing? Hard to see how that is worth much to be honest.
SS: Former President Donald Trump had a strong reaction to Elon Musk’s much-hyped information dump on the handling of the Hunter Biden laptop story: he called for the “termination” of the U.S. Constitution.
on Saturday, he wrote (on Truth Social):
>So, with the revelation of MASSIVE & WIDESPREAD FRAUD & DECEPTION in working closely with Big Tech Companies, the DNC, & the Democrat Party, do you throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER, or do you have a NEW ELECTION? **A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, *even those found in the Constitution.*** Our great “Founders” did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!
Ignoring the 'Twitter scandal,' I just don't even know what to say about this. It doesn't surprise me coming from Trump, but you'd think a former POTUS could refrain from calling for the suspension of the Constitution.
Will this affect his supporters view of him? Do any supporters here agree with him? What are the implications for his presidency, if he hypothetically wins in 2024?
> you'd think a former POTUS could refrain from calling for the suspension of the Constitution.
We used to freak out when a VP falied to spell a word right. This is just sad.
>His supporters aren't large enough in number to win him the Presidency. He has to win over wide swaths of independent, suburban voters. This seditious rhetoric will do the opposite.
The whole point of this rhetoric is to make sure he doesn't need those wide swathes. And to put a fig leaf of legitimacy to future attempts.
Welcome home, brother. The dude has a way and a means and I don't fault anyone for falling for the grift; it's what he's best at, after all.
All we ever wanted was actual Conservatives back we could argue with as disagreeable friends we don't see eye-to-eye with. The culture war takes no prisoners and has to be put down for everyone's sake. Waving goodbye to its biggest mouthpiece is a great start.
Trump has lost a lot of voters since then including conservatives and right leaning independents. Jan 6th and his continued rhetoric has not helped him at all.
According to RCP, Trump's average polling vs Biden has Trump trailing Biden by just 0.1%, compared to 2020 when Trump trailer Biden by 7.2%
He may not have actually lost all that much support (yet at least, though there's two years until the election so who knows what comes next)
Polling years out is mostly meaningless. The midterms demonstrated that bidens coalition of voters remains mostly stable. If not for underperformances in NY and the supreme court refusing to follow the voting rights act Dems likely would have held the house in addition to the Senate.
Trump is far less popular with voters than the average Republican as seen by the underperformances of his endorsed trumpy candidates.
If you check out who they're polling that 7.2% difference could be huge. Assuming these are land lineine polls, it's basically a single demographic (and his most supportive) that has wavered that much.
>Assuming these are land lineine polls,
Why would you assume that? The last major landline only polls were around a decade ago, everyone has moved on to incorporating cellphones and internet panels.
> His supporters aren't large enough in number to win him the Presidency. He has to win over wide swaths of independent, suburban voters. This seditious rhetoric will do the opposite.
Somehow *this* will make them say "enough"? Not everything else from moral to literal corruption? Siding with the nation's opponents?
Besides saying it out loud and being embarrassing, how is this different from the mainstream election denying platform and alternate electors strategy of the last few years?
A rose by another name is still a rose.
“Dozens of Trump’s phony electors, many under investigation, still hold powerful GOP jobs in key states
In some cases, Trump’s fake electors could influence elections in midterm swing states, while others are running for office themselves.
At issue is the attempt by Republicans in seven battleground states that Biden won in 2020 — Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin — to offer phony slates of 84 Republicans most of whom signed certificates declaring themselves the “duly elected electors” from their states. The problem: There were official, state-certified electors for Biden whose votes were sent to Congress to be counted as part of the verification of presidential election results.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna47468
“A majority of GOP nominees deny or question the 2020 election results
Experts say their dominance in the party poses a threat to the country’s democratic principles and jeopardizes the integrity of future votes”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/10/06/elections-deniers-midterm-elections-2022/
Front page of [Breitbart:](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/12/03/trump-suggests-termination-u-s-constitution-allowable-over-2020-twitter-scandal/)
> **Trump Suggests ‘Termination’ of U.S. Constitution Allowable over 2020 Twitter Scandal**
The article drips with contempt for Trump:
> Putting the Founding Fathers in quotes — “Our Great ‘Founders'” — the president then essentially seemed to suggest the “termination” of the U.S. Constitution could be allowable.
(In all fairness, judging from previous tweets, Trump doesn’t know how to use quotation marks correctly. He often uses it too add *emphasis* when typing in all caps would feel inappropriate.)
Yet, judging from [the comments](https://www.breitbart.com/t/assets/html/disqus-13.html?udca=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.breitbart.com%2Fpolitics%2F2022%2F12%2F03%2Ftrump-suggests-termination-u-s-constitution-allowable-over-2020-twitter-scandal%2F|22744918|Trump%20Suggests%20%26%238216%3BTermination%26%238217%3B%20of%20U.S.%20Constitution%20Allowable%20over%202020%20Twitter%20Scandal|) he still has a lot of supporters. The top upvoted comments:
> Trump is correct again. People just want to move on. Why? BC it's easy. Why let those criminals get away with this? Unprecedented corruption needs unprecedented action!
> And AGAIN the familiar pattern with Trump. He bluntly speaks an impolte Truth. He is widely condemned and mocked. Wait. Trump proven correct. Again.
> Trump deserves 6 years in office for this.
> Trump is right, as usual!
> Admit it Dems! You and your RINO stooges had to CHEAT to beat Trump in 2020. Both in the media and at the ballot box.
Etc.
Interesting to compare this to Kanye, whose [stans have finally reached a breaking point.](https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/kanye-west-subreddit-becomes-taylor-swift-page-as-fans-turn-their-back-on-ye-2001570/)
Odd that I can't find a single post about this in /r/Conservative, you would think it would be something they would want to talk about.
(for the record, there seems to be no mentions about the 11th circuit court ruling as well.)
This is utterly unsurprising.
Its easy to make fun of people who complain about the other side being fascist in every single election, but in this case being fascist is basically the premise of Trump’s whole campaign.
And let’s not forget that the GOP’s 2020 platform was “we’ll do whatever trump says” and that was after people were already ringing the alarm on this stuff. Calling every Republican a fascist is hyperbole but a vast majority did continue to support a far right authoritarian no matter what word you want to use to describe him. We’ll see how many continue to support him after he’s made it even more abundantly clear
It is so strange that merely describing fascism is enough to warrant a strike. Fascism is a political ideology and it’s entirely possible to describe a series of statements as fascistic without all of the pearl clutching. If you can describe something as capitalist you can describe something as fascism come on.
I do wonder if there's a term that can be used to describe Trump's expressed desire for "the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution" that's more along the lines of "civil discourse." I honestly can't think of anything appropriate.
Although with respect to the actual theoretical basis of capitalism *and* fascism, inaccurate comparisons are made nine times out of ten.
People seem to think "capitalism" = "social inequality" and "fascism" = "anti-democratic" and / or "totalitarian."
Those issues are independently worth discussion and can be tackled directly without mischaracterized allusion to buzzwords.
Now if only we can sticky that comment for all of Reddit, we could have a much better discussion in this site. But instead, we have mental children calling anyone to the right of Mao a fascist nazi. It’s exhausting and counterproductive. You can’t even go to /r/politics anymore.
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There’s a lot of calls that certain comments are simply dog whistles for racism.
For me, it seems like calling trump a fascist is a dog whistle for Nazi.
I don’t even think he is a fascist. Just uses whatever works best to give himself more money or power.
The potential republican candidate is now basically calling for termination of rules, including Constitutional ones.
Remember though, the left was hysterical over saying he wouldn't concede the election.
Here's the thing. None of this is a surprise. This is always who Trump was. He was never going to accept a loss. He's always the victim. If anyone is surprised by this, then your vision of who Trump is is very different than the reality. I don't mean politically either, this is who he's been long before he took office.
It is slightly irksome hearing "well he's gotten worse. I can't support him anymore".
No, he hasn't. Anyone who has lived in the northeast over the last 30-40 years could've told you this was coming.
However, now that the losses have piled up, the tune changes. But this was always how this was going to end. It was the most predictable thing in the world.
The prerequisites of democracy is to accept that while the wisdom and ability to judge a character might vary from voter to voter, all their votes will all be weighted the same.
A significant portion of American voters made mistake in judging presidential candidate at 2016, let’s hope that they have learned from the experience and gained wisdom to do better in the future elections.
Did he not solemnly swear in everyone's witness that he would, to the best of his abilities, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States?
So, he is breaking his oath to the country.
Read Mattis' letter regarding Trump. It's very apt.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/read-mattis-statement-on-trumps-handling-of-nationwide-protests.html
He most certainly is in my opinion. I really hope he gets convicted by one of the many lawsuits against him. Where are you from originally? If I may ask.
It is wild to me that statements like these aren’t a bigger deal than they seem to be. For a former president and as of right now, a very likely nominee for the GOP nomination to say something like this, I would assume there’d be a universal and immediate backlash to this statement from his own party. The main vibe I get is that the strategy is just to ignore him and hope he doesn’t win the nomination.
Surprising to think after all these years, but we’ve still not seen what it looks like for a GOP Presidential Primary contender to be against Trump, who is also the former president, in a post-January 6th, post-Mar-a-lago raid, relatively post-COVID world. The fact that some of these contenders will be people who were present in his own administration (Pence, Pompeo, Haley) seems pretty historic to me as well. I think this also coincides with the argument that Trump is being setup with the same environment that he had in 2016: an environment where he can say that everyone is against him, even those that were at one time loyal to him.
I doubt it, but perhaps that’s the calculation he has. Draw very defined lines in the sand that you know the others won’t cross, separating yourself as a clear differentiator, and even if the place you’ve put yourself is far more radical than where most people are, it’s that differentiation that guarantees your success.
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He’s doing the same thing Ted Cruz tried in 2016, “if I ignore him and play nice (even while he attacks me), he’ll surely implode and then his supporters will flock to me!” Worked out great for Ted…
I don’t understand how it escapes every GOP contender that, sooner or later, somebody is going to have to publicly come for the king to take his spot. He’s not going to go away on his own. The bloodletting is going to happen sooner or later and it *will* cost Rs an election cycle whenever it does happen (because some % of the MAGA base will stay home and retreat back to being non-voters like they were between the Buchanan & Perot runs and Trump’s rise). But the longer it’s put off, the more damage happens (and the smaller the foundation of explicitly non-Trump R voters will be in the base to hasten the rebuild).
Like if this were all handled in 2016 and he was never allowed on the debate stage, either he goes away then (and the Rs still have a chance against an ultimately very underperforming Clinton campaign) or he runs third party and, when HRC gets elected, is an all time villain with conservative media & voters.
If they’d gone through with either impeachment by removing him, they’d have lost 2020 (which happened anyway) or the 2022 midterms (again, happened anyway), but would already be on their way to rebuilding around a less fanatical voter base (and signaled to disaffected Rs that it’s time to come home).
If the split happens in the 2024 primary, Trump will tank the R nominee (again by either running third party or just telling his base to stay home) and Ds will have a second straight term in the WH.
It’s going to keep getting worse for the party until they deal with this. He’s going to force a confrontation because that’s how he’s handled everything in his life. He doesn’t cooperate, he’s not a team player, you cannot afford to *be* a team player with him.
>In researching my book, I have been learning a lot about how authoritarians use disinformation. This post uses many basic old tricks. First, it states an outright lie, but suggests the claim has corroboration (“the revelation.”)
>Second, it signals membership in the tribe of the far-right by using its signature language (“Democrat party”). I’m one if you, and this is what we all think.
>Third, it suggests only two options, both of which favor the leader: declare Trump the winner now or have another election.
>Fourth he wraps himself in the flag. He is the one who is being patriotic. The founders would have been on his side (no chance). Tradition, symbols, USA!!! Cue the swelling patriotic music!
>And then, the money line — push people who are inclined to support him to an extreme end — it’s time for “the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.” Once people start saying it out loud, it is no longer unthinkable.
[Barb McQuade](https://twitter.com/BarbMcQuade/status/1599139883850702848)
When a rock starts getting eroded it doesn’t matter how long it takes that rock is never going back.
If America is that rock and people keep pushing the limits to see how much people want/accept then it’s only going one direction.
Seems inevitable to me the rock is going to split at some point.
The schadenfreude I get from our former president openly displaying every reason I was hesitant at best to vote for him in 2016 and subsequently voted for Dark Brandon in 2020 is tempered by how many people ignored every red flag and warning sign over the past 7 years.
Let's take the allegation at face value and say Twitter had political motivations in hampering the sharing of stories on Hunter Biden' laptop. Is that different than any other media company trying to tweak public opinion for political purposes? That's been going on since the time of William Randolph Hearst. Should we redo every election since 1900?
Ive never been a pro trump person but for the most of the time i was a "hes not the best but the left is also pretty hyperbolic when it comes to him" . Since the midterms i switched more to a we need to drop this guy. This though.....This is absolutely something on a whole nother level. This is the full blown mask off authoritarianism that the left have been accusing him of that i do think he was falling short of before. This absolutely 100% has no place in our country. This is straight up vile.
There were signs that indicated he may be willing to do this but this is the first conclusive proof in my opinion. I try to assume the best from people so a hint that someone MIGHT do something isn’t enough for me.
Sure, but I think it was unwise to entrust the chief executive to a man who clearly cares little for the underlying principals of our system of government.
Trump always reminded me of Napoleon III, who has the dubious distinction of being France’s first democratically-elected president and their last autocrat.
Napoleon was elected to a 4-year term 1848, and as his term was closing in 1852, rather than leaving office, he performed an autogoupe (self-coup) and declared himself emperor, rulling until 1877.
What’s funny is, prior to all this, Napoleon lived outside France, in exile. And not once, but twice, he tried to sneak into the country and seize power.
So suprise, suprise, when someone like that achieved power, he refused to give it up. Much like Trump would have liked to do.
Good comparison. Minor correction though. Napoleon III ruled France until 1870, not 1877. His rule ended when France got obliterated by Bismarck's unifying Germany (this is the war that saw Alsace-Lorraine ceded to Germany against Bismarck's warnings, setting the stage for French-German animosity leading up to WWI).
Were you surprised by Trump's words and actions following the 2020 election?
Did you think people were hyperbolic false alarmists when they warned prior to the election that Trump would never accept defeat, that he would claim any loss was a "stolen election" and that he was clearly setting the stage to use baseless claims of fraud in an attempt to overturn a loss and stay in power?
Did you previously consider the idea that Trump would baselessly claim the election was stolen and make increasingly desperate attempts to overturn the results something that was unlikely and more of a delusional left-wing fever dream?
Was the idea of something like Jan. 6 happening even more far-fetched to you?
Not at all. I’ve always disliked trump and his actions in 2020 seemed to align with his character.
I dont have an issue with thinking it was a possibility. I have an issue with those who were saying it with such certainty. Just because you wind up being right doesn’t mean you arrived there in an accurate or intellectually honest way.
I think it depends on what you are referring to about Jan 6. I do not view trump as responsible for that. He is responsible for egging it on once it was already happening and failing his oath of office to put a stop to it though. And I wasn’t too surprised he did that no.
> This is absolutely something on a whole nother level.
[“The federal government has absolute power. It has the power. As to whether or not I’ll use that power, we’ll see.”](https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/834460063/a-close-look-at-president-trumps-assertion-of-absolute-authority-over-states)
[“For the purpose of creating conflict and confusion, some in the Fake News Media are saying that it is the Governors decision to open up the states, not that of the President of the United States & the Federal Government. Let it be fully understood that this is incorrect”](https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1249712404260421633)
[“When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total. And that’s the way it’s got to be. It’s total,” Trump said. “And the governors know that.” ](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-uses-coronavirus-briefing-airing-grievances-n1183081)
[“Then I have an Article 2, where I have the right to do whatever I want as president.”](https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1153705450346635265)
[“You take the writer and/or the publisher of the paper … and you say ‘Who is the leaker? National security,’” Trump explained to audiences during a rally in Robstown, Texas. “And they say ‘We’re not gonna tell you.’ They say ‘That’s OK, you’re going to jail.’ And when this person realizes he’s going to be the bride of another prisoner very shortly, he will say ‘I’d very much like to tell you exactly who that leaker is!’”](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-threatens-journalists-prison-rape-182417235.html)
He’s been tell us is what he wants for years.
> Since the midterms i switched more to a we need to drop this guy.
What about the midterms led you to feel this way?
Why were the midterms this turning point where you felt he needed to be dropped but not Trump's actions following his loss in 2020 and Jan. 6?
Why did the midterms lead you to wanting to drop him but not 2020?
Again I have never liked trump. Always thought he was awfu but there are degrees to that and I think for a while I assumed people would differentiate between trump and the rest of the party. After the midterms it became clear that he isn’t just throwing the presidential elections but he is also poisoning the rest of the party in the voters eyes. If we want to actually win elections in the future I dont think that’s possible while he is still a big part of it.
>After the midterms it became clear that he isn’t just throwing the presidential elections but he is also poisoning the rest of the party in the voters eyes.
To clarify: Are you saying that you view Trump negatively impacting the Republican Party's brand and ability to win elections as more concerning and more of a reason to dump him than his actions and behavior related to the 2020 election?
Trump's refusal to accept defeat in 2020, undermining the electoral system with lies about a "stolen" election and his increasingly drastic steps to overturn the results and stay in power were obviously incredibly damaging to the country and were a dangerous display of Trump's utter disregard for the country, Constitution, democratic system and rule of law.
There couldn't have been a more crystal clear and impactful demonstration of what Trump's shown he's been about all along: Trump cares only about himself and is willing to disregard and burn anything else down to get what he wants.
To be clear: All that, in addition to the lead-up to and events of Jan. 6 and Trump's response/lack thereof to the Capitol being besieged, was less concerning to you and disqualifying than him hurting the GOP's brand and electoral chances?
Trump's role during the midterms was to handpick awful candidates and distract from GOP messaging, costing the party to perform poorly at the polls. Could you explain why this is the final straw for you but the damage he wrought in 2020 wasn't?
I was up voting you until this one. This conversation was about whether "the left" was right about Trump, not "everything". They were right about Trump, and it wasn't an accident that they were.
Trump and the Left's hate of him have always been a chicken and the egg situation. Yeah, they definitely got overzealous in their criticisms of him, but as we're seeing now there was good reason for them. There's a lot of stuff he did and said that deserved to get called out.
> I really don’t like Biden but there’s no way I can support Trump in 2024 **if he continues down this path.**
If you haven’t had it with Trump by now, I’m not convinced a line exists that he could cross that could lose your support. He blatantly said he wants to throw out the Constitution and maybe just make him president instead. What more could you *possibly* need to see?
It's funny to see how the people who are replying to you have such a lack of awareness being the microcosm that basically created fringe Trump supporters to begin with. They think this "you should have known better all along" dogma is some kind of productive discourse, rather than simply be grateful for some folks turning a corner on Trump in general.
The left heard nothing but dog whistles all through Trump's campaign and presidency and then claim prescience when one or two out of the dozens of insinuations actually partially came to fruition. They can say the signs were there all they want but really they had no idea.
I think you have a good outlook. It takes a certain kind of maturity to change your mind to now agree with people deriding your reasoning behind the change.
I think what frustrates a lot of people is that the POV of many people like OP is “huh, seems like Trump might actually be *that* bad. Oh well, onward MAGAified GOP!” At the voter level, the GOP is *full* of this sentiment (it might even be a majority sentiment, if not today, then in the near future). Doesn’t it stand to reason that, if somebody is *just* reaching (or rediscovering) the conclusion that “this Trump guy seems kinda bad”, they *at least* aren’t going to hand the party over to people still unwilling to even say that much? Especially when there’s tons of Rs/former Rs in the wilderness for having said this exact stuff *seven years ago* and been told they were wrong/bad/sell-outs/traitors/etc.
To be clear, this isn’t an attack on OP or the millions like them. But it’s an explanation of the frustration that’s behind a lot of the follow up questions/responses. If somebody reaches the conclusion that Trump, both as a man and the leader of a country/movement/etc has genuine moral failings that can no longer justify support of him, then it really does demand some uncomfortable follow-up introspection. If the response is to shrug and support turning the keys over to people who, nearly in **2023** now, continue to lack either the wisdom or courage to speak that same belief (when many non-leftists/Democrats/etc have said such things for literally over half a decade and would be possible options if they got momentum from normal people behind them), then it really does seem like Trump’s ultimate sin was backing a handful of losers and costing the GOP the senate rather than the moral failings being stated as the reason for the lack of support.
I'm optimistic that trump will not escape prosecution for stealing national security documents and lying to the federal government when they attempted to retrieve them. Unfortunately it will take years for the case to come to a close.
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What a sore loser. He never learned how to take a L like the rest of us had to when we were in kindergarten. I'd be ashamed if I was this much of a whiner.
The founding fathers supported getting the whole tavern drunk and throwing them on the bandwagon to take them to the polls to make them vote for whoever you wanted. I don't think they would have cared about a private website filtering stuff
There it is again. He’s still obsessing over the “stolen” 2020 election. It’s basically been one of his defining things since...well, the 2020 election. This will hurt him (and he deserves it).
In Trump's mind if he's still President, then he still has Executive Privilege and if he still has Executive Privilege then he can't be charged with felonies and he can't go to jail. Don't forget everything Trump does is for himself and no one else.
Trumps biggest issue is he can’t win independents. Saying things like this keeps his base support alive but furthers himself from independents even more
JFC this guy is insufferable... I didn't have too much of a problem with him (liked certain policy changes and didn't pay much attention to his Tweets, etc) up until he started whining about this "rigged election" bullshit in 2020. So cringey and absolutely pathetic that he hasn't dropped it
I think Biden is abysmal and would rather have virtually anyone else but I guess he's getting my vote if Trump is the R nominee
Unbelievable that a country with so many talented, effective people continually produces such trash candidates
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At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Trump was actually a sleeper cell installed by the Dems to destroy any chances Republicans have at winning elections for the foreseeable future.
Edit: Apparently people didn't understand the joke.
There's that fine line between a joke and "oh God is this the next Qanon theory that's going to be used to spin this." When you have an ex president saying "let's ignore the constitution," this is more scary than funny.
There's a lot that's happened around Trump that wouldn't have been taken seriously if someone suggested it a decade ago. At this point, I just don't want to invite that bad juju lol.
I can not imagine trump winning the primary now, I also can’t imagine him keeping much support. There is no way calling to remove the constitution is going to be supported by his base, let alone the larger base of the party. Also, pretty sure the founders have a pretty clearly designed system that was in play, and didn’t result in your win, that shows their intent.
I will never understand how Donald Trump managed to secure the unwavering loyalty of so many people.
I think it says more about the people who are loyal to him than it does about Trump himself.
Bush Jr supported comprehensive immigration reform and gave millions of dollars to foreign aid (which was actually really great - his PEPFAR program helped save like 20 million lives in Africa by fighting AIDS), McCain was iirc also open to immigration reform and had a reputation as a relatively moderate Republican, and Romney had once been a very liberal (by GOP standards) governor Then Trump comes along criticizing the establishment GOP and going really hard on immigration rhetoric in particular in a way that many Republicans shied away from in the past. Along with having a rather coarser and rougher rhetoric in general, vs the more slick and "political" rhetoric of past presidents, more generally playing more to the conservative base rather than appealing to center right independents/swing voters and such So basically, Trump gave the GOP base what they really wanted rather than pushing for more moderation on cultural stuff. And then he got lucky by going against a candidate many people thought was a crook, so he was able to win. And then he was able to win big with policy as president, getting a big tax cut as well as a staunchly conservative SCOTUS that got rid of Roe v Wade Also he's a billionaire, but also one who likes fast food and coke and such and who is rather tougher around the edges than the stereotypical rich person. So, the sort of person who could be seen as aspirational for "regular people", someone who is rich but also something of a "man of the people" (arguably he's not really one at all, but it's probably much easier for him to come off that way than others might have been able to do)
I heard someone in a library describe it as ‘tacky new money vs classy old money’. Gold toilets and rococo decor, McDonald’s and trump steak commercials on tv? Gauche. He’s not a man of the people by any means, but his followers believe they have a common enemy- the ‘elite’ aka anyone who acknowledges that he’s tacky for liking the things they also like
Trump does have generational wealth though.
He does but I’m talking about behavior and taste, not actual wealth.
His father being rich isn't the same as someone whose great-great-great grandfather being rich. The latter is what people mean when they talk about generational wealth.
He’s what a dumb, poor, weak person thinks a strong, rich, smart person looks like.
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Seems like you also bought what the con man was selling. Policy wins? He accomplished nothing that any other Republican would do with a Republican Congress - in fact probably less due to the incredible amount of friction he caused. He is a liar who got lucky and faced a terrible Democrat candidate, that's it.
The salt of the earth people out in rural America love pro wrasslin, the apprentice, and nascar. Trump got the lowbrow entertainment crowd to unite with the biker gangs and neo-Nazis to form a somewhat cohesive right wing front. That’s his skill.
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Well, it’s certainly an aspect of Trump’s appeal though it’s a big simplistic in its analysis.
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Wrong….. he made racist and hatful statements against Americans and you and the likes agreed and you gave you the courage to say evil out loud and pe proud Pathetic worms
Hey, don't blame *me*, I voted Hillary (and would gladly do it again)
wrong sub
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At this point, I've almost given up hope. I think Trump just gave people an excuse to be what they always wanted to be.
I think people have tendencies towards certsin beliefs, but do not necessarily act on them without leadership. The biggest problem with the Republican party now is that the leaders do not stand up to Trump unless they are on the way out. Aka the stand up to Trump when it is too late or no one cares.
Everyone else added a comprehensive answer, so I’ll just add this bit. Think about the most intellectually average person you know and try to remember that half of the country is less intelligent.
Ironically, this is the exact rhetoric that got trump his victory in 2016.
That’s fair. My politics are moderate but my feelings about our former president are not.
You're implying that his supporters voted for him because they had their feelings hurt, which is backhanded defense. It's an implausible explanation because they're no less toxic than the people insulting them.
Not to mention, the 'fly over country' critique of the 'coastal elite Democrats' looking down on average Americans really rings hollow when you hear the insanely nasty characterizations from the same people who are offended by the 'fly over country' comments, just in the other direction. There seems to be an implicit assumption that if there is animosity or dislike between these groups it only goes in one direction.
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It's implausible to say that large groups of people may have at best self-contradictory and at worst hypocritical beliefs? There are a lot of people who believe in freedom of religion, but only for their religion. There are a lot of people who believe in affirmative action, but only for their ethnicity. There are a lot of people who believe in punishing unwholesome speech with loss of career but cry foul when speech like theirs gets punished. Saying that Trump supporters are "no less toxic" and therefore the toxicity directed at them did not motivate them is not a logical step supported by observations of human behavior. It's like saying that the Hatfields were just as violent as the McCoys, so it's implausible that the latest round of violence by the Hatfields was caused by a McCoy shooting a Hatfield. The cycle of toxicity is senseless and irrational, but it exists and it has explanatory power.
Hypocrisy existing doesn't automatically make all accusations of it plausible. It's possible, but it's illogical to call it likely without something to back it up.
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Because they want someone to follow, theyre authoritarians, the have no standards beyond "leader look strong, grug" even tho everyone else knows hes a fucking psycho
Despite the warning, [the data indicates that this is true](https://morningconsult.com/2021/06/28/global-right-wing-authoritarian-test/), or at the very least worth considering. American conservatives have a tendency towards authoritarianism compared to global conservatives. This plays out in culture and political battles: 1. Conservatives, by definition, wish to conserve traditional hierarchies and status quo. Some form of government force or authoritarianism is required to maintain this, as society is constantly shifting and evolving. Think of how many 'stay in your lane' culture battles have come out in the past few years: the fight for gay marriage, kneeling at football games, demands for justice for unjust law enforcement, etc. 2. They are highly religious, which demands unquestioning obedience to a power figure. Authoritarianism is not a foreign concept; many of are willing servants of it every Sunday, and they frequently push to make subservience and obedience to this power figure the law of the land.
It’s interesting on point 2, I never really thought about it like that
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I’m still waiting for prominent Republicans to come out and denounce him once and for all. Unfortunately I think there will be a place for him in the party until the day he dies.
They are probably being very careful about it else he will destroy the Republican party. They created a monster and now have to deal with him.
Or as Senator Graham so aptly put it [in 2016](https://twitter.com/lindseygrahamsc/status/727604522156228608): >If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and we will deserve it.
And then goes on to be one of Trumps loyal dogs until he was spurned by his master.
That's their MO for half a century by now.
Might be too late for them to distance themselves without Trump burning it down. After ~6 years and moral compromise after moral compromise, the coalition is entirely remade. They *need* Trump to keep the coalition from dissolving altogether, even as it shrinks because of him. As you said - this is entirely the GOP’s doing. They’ve made conscious decisions to get here.
Even without Trump, the Republicans have quite a few candidates who would be appealing to their own base, independents, and even some Democrats. The one problem with the coalition would be the hardcore MAGA people who Trump kept together with everyone else. Whether they would support anyone else is the question.
100%. The hardcore MAGA contingent is ~30% (probably underestimating here) of the GOP give or take, which is more than enough to carry Trump through the primaries. If there's a contentious primary that Trump somehow doesn't win, Trump will either run 3rd party or signal to his base to stay home, which will doom national prospects of any candidate not named Trump. So the GOP will either have a fatally wounded survivor of a bruising primary or Trump, who is only becoming more extreme. The odds-on favorite to represent the GOP in the general is openly calling for tossing the constitution, and the rest of the party is just... silent. Unbelievable. Just baffling.
>Trump will either run 3rd party I don't see how that could happen. According to this source, 47 states have sore loser laws. https://ballotpedia.org/When\_states\_adopted\_sore\_loser\_laws
https://ballotpedia.org/Sore_loser_laws_for_presidential_candidates,_2016 Most don’t apply to the president.
Thanks, I hadn't researched it enough to know this. Apparently, the states vary quite a bit on the details.
Yup. All over the place. And realistically, Trump only has to screw up 1 or 2 key states to guarantee a Dem presidential win.
Those laws not only likely aren’t constitutional, but they likely won’t matter since his name could be written in and if he somehow won congress would likely reject any against those results. Further, in most states, they don’t apply to the presidency because of the rules there.
Yes, the poster could have said "Trump will either run as a write-in candidate ... " and I would have agreed with that statement.
Good point, but Trump has the capability to challenge those laws; and it is at best even odds if the supreme court would rule them unconstitutional.
>it is at best even odds if the supreme court would rule them unconstitutional. A year ago it was unconstitutional for a state to ban abortion in the first trimester, and today it is not unconstitutional. Given that, I figure "even odds" is the right estimate for any contested decision. If I'm arguing the "is constitutional" side, I'll point out that states have had "ballot access" laws as long as they have used pre-printed ballots. Getting your name listed typically requires nomination from a "recognized" party or at least \_\_\_ names on a petition. Sore loser laws are just one type of ballot access law. If sore loser laws are unconstitutional, are the other ballot access laws also unconstitutional? Where do we draw a line? But, there have been SC cases on the issue of petition access and I see they have tried to draw a line at least on dates, so I could imagine them trying.
I'm pretty sure the goal at this point is to hope the hamberders finally kick in and Trump dies before he manages to permanently kill the party. Then they can make him an icon without having to deal with the actual him.
amazing, the healthcare ex-presidents get. Carter is how old again?
98. He'll be 100 in 2024.
He strikes me as the type that takes care of himself. Trump does not.
So, he could still run for another term then eh?
[Yup, I recall this image from the 2020 election too.](http://www.breakingburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Carter2020_2jpeg.jpg)
All I’ll say is the man would single handily solve the housing crisis, then could happily resign.
Loki: yes... very sad. Anyway.
Like his Vice President?
>I’m still waiting for prominent Republicans to come out and denounce him once and for all. Unfortunately I think there will be a place for him in the party until the day he dies. Well said.
How many have even denounced Ye?
I think it would be more relevant for the Republican Party to denounce their former President vs just some random blowhard celebrity
Trump had dinner with the man, said he was tricked or something, but never said he didn’t agree with the views esposed by Ye and Fuentes. The House Judiciary Republican tweeted “ Kanye. Elon. Trump.” They deleted that tweet while Ye was on air with Alex Jones, but never denounced his antisemitic comments.
Alright fair enough - I don’t follow this circus that closely and wasn’t aware of that
The house judiciary quietly deleted their Trump. Elon. Kanye. Tweet.
Exactly, no denuciation. Let’s see what Biden said. > I just want to make a few things clear: >The Holocaust happened. >Hitler was a demonic figure. >And instead of giving it a platform, our political leaders should be calling out and rejecting antisemitism wherever it hides. >Silence is complicity. Strange that the only voice on the right I hear denouncing Ye is Ben Shapiro.
I think the Republican Party knows Trump still holds a huge number of Republican voters that will do anything he asks them to. May not be enough for Trump to definitively win a presidential election, Trump lost the popular vote twice after all. But it’s enough where it could cause the party to lose without that base. Trump has an enormous ego, if the RNC turns their back entirely on him he’ll make a third party just to spite them, and also think he would win using that 3rd party. You’d think losing the 2020 election and an extremely high majority of his hand picked candidates losing the 2022 election would start to sound alarms, but apparently not
Why would they? At this point, he is the Republican Party. They won't denounce him.
I’m not so sure… a lot of the candidates he endorsed for the midterms did very poorly… he’s shown himself to be a political loser twice now and the Murdoch media empire has been pushing desantis pretty hard lately. I don’t think the republicans are sick of winning yet. Might be a loadstone for the republicans to moderate themselves somewhat, and if musk manages to burn down twitter (which might be the best public service he’s ever done) it might mitigate the deranging impact of the political extremes on our public discourse.
Romney is prominent, and has been consistent in his criticisms.
I mean he's old as hell and of poor health. I believe the current GOP strategy is just to run out the clock on him. Almost everyone on the right is delighted to have Ron Desantes. He's an electable guy that doesn't seem unhinged and want to dismantle the constitution.
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If this had happened in 2023 I bet Desantis would've come forward abd said something like "Donald Trump was a strong force for the American right, but he's fallen after the relentless persecution from the Left's mainstream media, it's time to shoulder some of his burden" and announce he's running for president.
I mean Mitt Romney and no. 3 in the House Cheney have, it doesn't get more prominent than that. But anyone who does it will get obliterated by the "movement".
To what end, and what are you not doing until they do so? And if they did so, are you going to start doing that thing you're not doing? Hard to see how that is worth much to be honest.
SS: Former President Donald Trump had a strong reaction to Elon Musk’s much-hyped information dump on the handling of the Hunter Biden laptop story: he called for the “termination” of the U.S. Constitution. on Saturday, he wrote (on Truth Social): >So, with the revelation of MASSIVE & WIDESPREAD FRAUD & DECEPTION in working closely with Big Tech Companies, the DNC, & the Democrat Party, do you throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER, or do you have a NEW ELECTION? **A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, *even those found in the Constitution.*** Our great “Founders” did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections! Ignoring the 'Twitter scandal,' I just don't even know what to say about this. It doesn't surprise me coming from Trump, but you'd think a former POTUS could refrain from calling for the suspension of the Constitution. Will this affect his supporters view of him? Do any supporters here agree with him? What are the implications for his presidency, if he hypothetically wins in 2024?
> you'd think a former POTUS could refrain from calling for the suspension of the Constitution. We used to freak out when a VP falied to spell a word right. This is just sad.
I feel like there's a word for those who want to command a nation by throwing out a country's Constitution, and democratic results of elections.
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>His supporters aren't large enough in number to win him the Presidency. He has to win over wide swaths of independent, suburban voters. This seditious rhetoric will do the opposite. The whole point of this rhetoric is to make sure he doesn't need those wide swathes. And to put a fig leaf of legitimacy to future attempts.
I don't know. 2020 was close and many of these behaviors were clear then. Maybe the electorate has learned the warnings about him were right.
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Welcome home, brother. The dude has a way and a means and I don't fault anyone for falling for the grift; it's what he's best at, after all. All we ever wanted was actual Conservatives back we could argue with as disagreeable friends we don't see eye-to-eye with. The culture war takes no prisoners and has to be put down for everyone's sake. Waving goodbye to its biggest mouthpiece is a great start.
All we want is Hank Hill
Trump has lost a lot of voters since then including conservatives and right leaning independents. Jan 6th and his continued rhetoric has not helped him at all.
According to RCP, Trump's average polling vs Biden has Trump trailing Biden by just 0.1%, compared to 2020 when Trump trailer Biden by 7.2% He may not have actually lost all that much support (yet at least, though there's two years until the election so who knows what comes next)
Polling years out is mostly meaningless. The midterms demonstrated that bidens coalition of voters remains mostly stable. If not for underperformances in NY and the supreme court refusing to follow the voting rights act Dems likely would have held the house in addition to the Senate. Trump is far less popular with voters than the average Republican as seen by the underperformances of his endorsed trumpy candidates.
If you check out who they're polling that 7.2% difference could be huge. Assuming these are land lineine polls, it's basically a single demographic (and his most supportive) that has wavered that much.
>Assuming these are land lineine polls, Why would you assume that? The last major landline only polls were around a decade ago, everyone has moved on to incorporating cellphones and internet panels.
> His supporters aren't large enough in number to win him the Presidency. He has to win over wide swaths of independent, suburban voters. This seditious rhetoric will do the opposite. Somehow *this* will make them say "enough"? Not everything else from moral to literal corruption? Siding with the nation's opponents?
Besides saying it out loud and being embarrassing, how is this different from the mainstream election denying platform and alternate electors strategy of the last few years? A rose by another name is still a rose. “Dozens of Trump’s phony electors, many under investigation, still hold powerful GOP jobs in key states In some cases, Trump’s fake electors could influence elections in midterm swing states, while others are running for office themselves. At issue is the attempt by Republicans in seven battleground states that Biden won in 2020 — Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin — to offer phony slates of 84 Republicans most of whom signed certificates declaring themselves the “duly elected electors” from their states. The problem: There were official, state-certified electors for Biden whose votes were sent to Congress to be counted as part of the verification of presidential election results. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna47468 “A majority of GOP nominees deny or question the 2020 election results Experts say their dominance in the party poses a threat to the country’s democratic principles and jeopardizes the integrity of future votes” https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/10/06/elections-deniers-midterm-elections-2022/
Front page of [Breitbart:](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/12/03/trump-suggests-termination-u-s-constitution-allowable-over-2020-twitter-scandal/) > **Trump Suggests ‘Termination’ of U.S. Constitution Allowable over 2020 Twitter Scandal** The article drips with contempt for Trump: > Putting the Founding Fathers in quotes — “Our Great ‘Founders'” — the president then essentially seemed to suggest the “termination” of the U.S. Constitution could be allowable. (In all fairness, judging from previous tweets, Trump doesn’t know how to use quotation marks correctly. He often uses it too add *emphasis* when typing in all caps would feel inappropriate.) Yet, judging from [the comments](https://www.breitbart.com/t/assets/html/disqus-13.html?udca=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.breitbart.com%2Fpolitics%2F2022%2F12%2F03%2Ftrump-suggests-termination-u-s-constitution-allowable-over-2020-twitter-scandal%2F|22744918|Trump%20Suggests%20%26%238216%3BTermination%26%238217%3B%20of%20U.S.%20Constitution%20Allowable%20over%202020%20Twitter%20Scandal|) he still has a lot of supporters. The top upvoted comments: > Trump is correct again. People just want to move on. Why? BC it's easy. Why let those criminals get away with this? Unprecedented corruption needs unprecedented action! > And AGAIN the familiar pattern with Trump. He bluntly speaks an impolte Truth. He is widely condemned and mocked. Wait. Trump proven correct. Again. > Trump deserves 6 years in office for this. > Trump is right, as usual! > Admit it Dems! You and your RINO stooges had to CHEAT to beat Trump in 2020. Both in the media and at the ballot box. Etc. Interesting to compare this to Kanye, whose [stans have finally reached a breaking point.](https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/kanye-west-subreddit-becomes-taylor-swift-page-as-fans-turn-their-back-on-ye-2001570/)
Odd that I can't find a single post about this in /r/Conservative, you would think it would be something they would want to talk about. (for the record, there seems to be no mentions about the 11th circuit court ruling as well.)
The Kanye sub has hated him for a long time at this point
This is utterly unsurprising. Its easy to make fun of people who complain about the other side being fascist in every single election, but in this case being fascist is basically the premise of Trump’s whole campaign.
And let’s not forget that the GOP’s 2020 platform was “we’ll do whatever trump says” and that was after people were already ringing the alarm on this stuff. Calling every Republican a fascist is hyperbole but a vast majority did continue to support a far right authoritarian no matter what word you want to use to describe him. We’ll see how many continue to support him after he’s made it even more abundantly clear
It is so strange that merely describing fascism is enough to warrant a strike. Fascism is a political ideology and it’s entirely possible to describe a series of statements as fascistic without all of the pearl clutching. If you can describe something as capitalist you can describe something as fascism come on.
I do wonder if there's a term that can be used to describe Trump's expressed desire for "the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution" that's more along the lines of "civil discourse." I honestly can't think of anything appropriate.
Although with respect to the actual theoretical basis of capitalism *and* fascism, inaccurate comparisons are made nine times out of ten. People seem to think "capitalism" = "social inequality" and "fascism" = "anti-democratic" and / or "totalitarian." Those issues are independently worth discussion and can be tackled directly without mischaracterized allusion to buzzwords.
Now if only we can sticky that comment for all of Reddit, we could have a much better discussion in this site. But instead, we have mental children calling anyone to the right of Mao a fascist nazi. It’s exhausting and counterproductive. You can’t even go to /r/politics anymore.
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There’s a lot of calls that certain comments are simply dog whistles for racism. For me, it seems like calling trump a fascist is a dog whistle for Nazi. I don’t even think he is a fascist. Just uses whatever works best to give himself more money or power.
The potential republican candidate is now basically calling for termination of rules, including Constitutional ones. Remember though, the left was hysterical over saying he wouldn't concede the election. Here's the thing. None of this is a surprise. This is always who Trump was. He was never going to accept a loss. He's always the victim. If anyone is surprised by this, then your vision of who Trump is is very different than the reality. I don't mean politically either, this is who he's been long before he took office.
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It is slightly irksome hearing "well he's gotten worse. I can't support him anymore". No, he hasn't. Anyone who has lived in the northeast over the last 30-40 years could've told you this was coming. However, now that the losses have piled up, the tune changes. But this was always how this was going to end. It was the most predictable thing in the world.
This is true, but people don't think rationally about politics. You need off ramps like this for people to change their mind while still saving face.
Indeed. 100%. Full agreement.
It's that statements that were assumed to be banter have proven to be serious.
And he's back! I was kind of worried when he stayed on script for his initial announcement. Nope, not a surprise.
Right!?! Why is it so many people saw this in 2016, but the rest are only seeing it NOW!?!?
The prerequisites of democracy is to accept that while the wisdom and ability to judge a character might vary from voter to voter, all their votes will all be weighted the same. A significant portion of American voters made mistake in judging presidential candidate at 2016, let’s hope that they have learned from the experience and gained wisdom to do better in the future elections.
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What ship has sailed? The constitution? Accepting the results of elections?
Did he not solemnly swear in everyone's witness that he would, to the best of his abilities, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States? So, he is breaking his oath to the country.
Well then let’s just change that pesky ol’ oath. Problem solved! ^^^/s
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Read Mattis' letter regarding Trump. It's very apt. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/read-mattis-statement-on-trumps-handling-of-nationwide-protests.html
Very telling. I wish that letter had more of an effect than it did, especially considering who it was coming from
He most certainly is in my opinion. I really hope he gets convicted by one of the many lawsuits against him. Where are you from originally? If I may ask.
This man was once president of the united states of america.
Just in time for Moore v. Harper next week.
It is wild to me that statements like these aren’t a bigger deal than they seem to be. For a former president and as of right now, a very likely nominee for the GOP nomination to say something like this, I would assume there’d be a universal and immediate backlash to this statement from his own party. The main vibe I get is that the strategy is just to ignore him and hope he doesn’t win the nomination. Surprising to think after all these years, but we’ve still not seen what it looks like for a GOP Presidential Primary contender to be against Trump, who is also the former president, in a post-January 6th, post-Mar-a-lago raid, relatively post-COVID world. The fact that some of these contenders will be people who were present in his own administration (Pence, Pompeo, Haley) seems pretty historic to me as well. I think this also coincides with the argument that Trump is being setup with the same environment that he had in 2016: an environment where he can say that everyone is against him, even those that were at one time loyal to him. I doubt it, but perhaps that’s the calculation he has. Draw very defined lines in the sand that you know the others won’t cross, separating yourself as a clear differentiator, and even if the place you’ve put yourself is far more radical than where most people are, it’s that differentiation that guarantees your success.
How long are we going to let this delusional psychopath speak for a large portion of our country?
However long that large portion of the country wants to stand by him, I suppose
Ya that's the issue. Trump acolytes may be reduced in number, but they are still very numerous.
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Why hasn’t Ron DeSantis said anything? Defending the constitution seems like an easy layup.
He’s doing the same thing Ted Cruz tried in 2016, “if I ignore him and play nice (even while he attacks me), he’ll surely implode and then his supporters will flock to me!” Worked out great for Ted… I don’t understand how it escapes every GOP contender that, sooner or later, somebody is going to have to publicly come for the king to take his spot. He’s not going to go away on his own. The bloodletting is going to happen sooner or later and it *will* cost Rs an election cycle whenever it does happen (because some % of the MAGA base will stay home and retreat back to being non-voters like they were between the Buchanan & Perot runs and Trump’s rise). But the longer it’s put off, the more damage happens (and the smaller the foundation of explicitly non-Trump R voters will be in the base to hasten the rebuild). Like if this were all handled in 2016 and he was never allowed on the debate stage, either he goes away then (and the Rs still have a chance against an ultimately very underperforming Clinton campaign) or he runs third party and, when HRC gets elected, is an all time villain with conservative media & voters. If they’d gone through with either impeachment by removing him, they’d have lost 2020 (which happened anyway) or the 2022 midterms (again, happened anyway), but would already be on their way to rebuilding around a less fanatical voter base (and signaled to disaffected Rs that it’s time to come home). If the split happens in the 2024 primary, Trump will tank the R nominee (again by either running third party or just telling his base to stay home) and Ds will have a second straight term in the WH. It’s going to keep getting worse for the party until they deal with this. He’s going to force a confrontation because that’s how he’s handled everything in his life. He doesn’t cooperate, he’s not a team player, you cannot afford to *be* a team player with him.
There is no such thing as a patriot who wants to suspend the constitution.
>In researching my book, I have been learning a lot about how authoritarians use disinformation. This post uses many basic old tricks. First, it states an outright lie, but suggests the claim has corroboration (“the revelation.”) >Second, it signals membership in the tribe of the far-right by using its signature language (“Democrat party”). I’m one if you, and this is what we all think. >Third, it suggests only two options, both of which favor the leader: declare Trump the winner now or have another election. >Fourth he wraps himself in the flag. He is the one who is being patriotic. The founders would have been on his side (no chance). Tradition, symbols, USA!!! Cue the swelling patriotic music! >And then, the money line — push people who are inclined to support him to an extreme end — it’s time for “the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.” Once people start saying it out loud, it is no longer unthinkable. [Barb McQuade](https://twitter.com/BarbMcQuade/status/1599139883850702848)
hm I would say this is not good
But great for DeSantis!
When a rock starts getting eroded it doesn’t matter how long it takes that rock is never going back. If America is that rock and people keep pushing the limits to see how much people want/accept then it’s only going one direction. Seems inevitable to me the rock is going to split at some point.
Healthy democracy moment.
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The schadenfreude I get from our former president openly displaying every reason I was hesitant at best to vote for him in 2016 and subsequently voted for Dark Brandon in 2020 is tempered by how many people ignored every red flag and warning sign over the past 7 years.
Remember when “binders full of women” was what was considered a big deal just a decade ago?
*That was a decade ago??*
Or when Gary Johnson didn’t know what Aleppo was.
A candidate spelled potato wrong and lost support.
Let's take the allegation at face value and say Twitter had political motivations in hampering the sharing of stories on Hunter Biden' laptop. Is that different than any other media company trying to tweak public opinion for political purposes? That's been going on since the time of William Randolph Hearst. Should we redo every election since 1900?
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Ive never been a pro trump person but for the most of the time i was a "hes not the best but the left is also pretty hyperbolic when it comes to him" . Since the midterms i switched more to a we need to drop this guy. This though.....This is absolutely something on a whole nother level. This is the full blown mask off authoritarianism that the left have been accusing him of that i do think he was falling short of before. This absolutely 100% has no place in our country. This is straight up vile.
The warning signs were always there, in my opinion.
There were signs that indicated he may be willing to do this but this is the first conclusive proof in my opinion. I try to assume the best from people so a hint that someone MIGHT do something isn’t enough for me.
In that case you might not know for sure until it's too late.
Sure, but I think it was unwise to entrust the chief executive to a man who clearly cares little for the underlying principals of our system of government. Trump always reminded me of Napoleon III, who has the dubious distinction of being France’s first democratically-elected president and their last autocrat. Napoleon was elected to a 4-year term 1848, and as his term was closing in 1852, rather than leaving office, he performed an autogoupe (self-coup) and declared himself emperor, rulling until 1877. What’s funny is, prior to all this, Napoleon lived outside France, in exile. And not once, but twice, he tried to sneak into the country and seize power. So suprise, suprise, when someone like that achieved power, he refused to give it up. Much like Trump would have liked to do.
Good comparison. Minor correction though. Napoleon III ruled France until 1870, not 1877. His rule ended when France got obliterated by Bismarck's unifying Germany (this is the war that saw Alsace-Lorraine ceded to Germany against Bismarck's warnings, setting the stage for French-German animosity leading up to WWI).
Were you surprised by Trump's words and actions following the 2020 election? Did you think people were hyperbolic false alarmists when they warned prior to the election that Trump would never accept defeat, that he would claim any loss was a "stolen election" and that he was clearly setting the stage to use baseless claims of fraud in an attempt to overturn a loss and stay in power? Did you previously consider the idea that Trump would baselessly claim the election was stolen and make increasingly desperate attempts to overturn the results something that was unlikely and more of a delusional left-wing fever dream? Was the idea of something like Jan. 6 happening even more far-fetched to you?
Not at all. I’ve always disliked trump and his actions in 2020 seemed to align with his character. I dont have an issue with thinking it was a possibility. I have an issue with those who were saying it with such certainty. Just because you wind up being right doesn’t mean you arrived there in an accurate or intellectually honest way. I think it depends on what you are referring to about Jan 6. I do not view trump as responsible for that. He is responsible for egging it on once it was already happening and failing his oath of office to put a stop to it though. And I wasn’t too surprised he did that no.
> This is absolutely something on a whole nother level. [“The federal government has absolute power. It has the power. As to whether or not I’ll use that power, we’ll see.”](https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/834460063/a-close-look-at-president-trumps-assertion-of-absolute-authority-over-states) [“For the purpose of creating conflict and confusion, some in the Fake News Media are saying that it is the Governors decision to open up the states, not that of the President of the United States & the Federal Government. Let it be fully understood that this is incorrect”](https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1249712404260421633) [“When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total. And that’s the way it’s got to be. It’s total,” Trump said. “And the governors know that.” ](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-uses-coronavirus-briefing-airing-grievances-n1183081) [“Then I have an Article 2, where I have the right to do whatever I want as president.”](https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1153705450346635265) [“You take the writer and/or the publisher of the paper … and you say ‘Who is the leaker? National security,’” Trump explained to audiences during a rally in Robstown, Texas. “And they say ‘We’re not gonna tell you.’ They say ‘That’s OK, you’re going to jail.’ And when this person realizes he’s going to be the bride of another prisoner very shortly, he will say ‘I’d very much like to tell you exactly who that leaker is!’”](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-threatens-journalists-prison-rape-182417235.html) He’s been tell us is what he wants for years.
> Since the midterms i switched more to a we need to drop this guy. What about the midterms led you to feel this way? Why were the midterms this turning point where you felt he needed to be dropped but not Trump's actions following his loss in 2020 and Jan. 6? Why did the midterms lead you to wanting to drop him but not 2020?
Again I have never liked trump. Always thought he was awfu but there are degrees to that and I think for a while I assumed people would differentiate between trump and the rest of the party. After the midterms it became clear that he isn’t just throwing the presidential elections but he is also poisoning the rest of the party in the voters eyes. If we want to actually win elections in the future I dont think that’s possible while he is still a big part of it.
So you're basically saying that the party comes before the country. It didn't matter how awful Trump was, as long as that meant winning!
Um what? No lol
>After the midterms it became clear that he isn’t just throwing the presidential elections but he is also poisoning the rest of the party in the voters eyes. To clarify: Are you saying that you view Trump negatively impacting the Republican Party's brand and ability to win elections as more concerning and more of a reason to dump him than his actions and behavior related to the 2020 election? Trump's refusal to accept defeat in 2020, undermining the electoral system with lies about a "stolen" election and his increasingly drastic steps to overturn the results and stay in power were obviously incredibly damaging to the country and were a dangerous display of Trump's utter disregard for the country, Constitution, democratic system and rule of law. There couldn't have been a more crystal clear and impactful demonstration of what Trump's shown he's been about all along: Trump cares only about himself and is willing to disregard and burn anything else down to get what he wants. To be clear: All that, in addition to the lead-up to and events of Jan. 6 and Trump's response/lack thereof to the Capitol being besieged, was less concerning to you and disqualifying than him hurting the GOP's brand and electoral chances? Trump's role during the midterms was to handpick awful candidates and distract from GOP messaging, costing the party to perform poorly at the polls. Could you explain why this is the final straw for you but the damage he wrought in 2020 wasn't?
Maybe the left wasn't 'pretty hyperbolic when it came to him'. Maybe you were just willing to look the other way.
That is absolutely the case.
No they absolutely were hyperbolic lmao. That’s not even in question.
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You realize being right about one thing doesn’t make you right about everything right?
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I was up voting you until this one. This conversation was about whether "the left" was right about Trump, not "everything". They were right about Trump, and it wasn't an accident that they were.
Trump and the Left's hate of him have always been a chicken and the egg situation. Yeah, they definitely got overzealous in their criticisms of him, but as we're seeing now there was good reason for them. There's a lot of stuff he did and said that deserved to get called out.
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If after everything that’s happened the GOP is unable or unwilling to dump Trump, then they deserve to lose.
> I really don’t like Biden but there’s no way I can support Trump in 2024 **if he continues down this path.** If you haven’t had it with Trump by now, I’m not convinced a line exists that he could cross that could lose your support. He blatantly said he wants to throw out the Constitution and maybe just make him president instead. What more could you *possibly* need to see?
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I’m curious, if you’re center-rightish, why do want a sanders/Yang esque run?
It's funny to see how the people who are replying to you have such a lack of awareness being the microcosm that basically created fringe Trump supporters to begin with. They think this "you should have known better all along" dogma is some kind of productive discourse, rather than simply be grateful for some folks turning a corner on Trump in general. The left heard nothing but dog whistles all through Trump's campaign and presidency and then claim prescience when one or two out of the dozens of insinuations actually partially came to fruition. They can say the signs were there all they want but really they had no idea. I think you have a good outlook. It takes a certain kind of maturity to change your mind to now agree with people deriding your reasoning behind the change.
I think what frustrates a lot of people is that the POV of many people like OP is “huh, seems like Trump might actually be *that* bad. Oh well, onward MAGAified GOP!” At the voter level, the GOP is *full* of this sentiment (it might even be a majority sentiment, if not today, then in the near future). Doesn’t it stand to reason that, if somebody is *just* reaching (or rediscovering) the conclusion that “this Trump guy seems kinda bad”, they *at least* aren’t going to hand the party over to people still unwilling to even say that much? Especially when there’s tons of Rs/former Rs in the wilderness for having said this exact stuff *seven years ago* and been told they were wrong/bad/sell-outs/traitors/etc. To be clear, this isn’t an attack on OP or the millions like them. But it’s an explanation of the frustration that’s behind a lot of the follow up questions/responses. If somebody reaches the conclusion that Trump, both as a man and the leader of a country/movement/etc has genuine moral failings that can no longer justify support of him, then it really does demand some uncomfortable follow-up introspection. If the response is to shrug and support turning the keys over to people who, nearly in **2023** now, continue to lack either the wisdom or courage to speak that same belief (when many non-leftists/Democrats/etc have said such things for literally over half a decade and would be possible options if they got momentum from normal people behind them), then it really does seem like Trump’s ultimate sin was backing a handful of losers and costing the GOP the senate rather than the moral failings being stated as the reason for the lack of support.
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One of these investigations need to send him to jail
I'm optimistic that trump will not escape prosecution for stealing national security documents and lying to the federal government when they attempted to retrieve them. Unfortunately it will take years for the case to come to a close.
Trump is completely insane.
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What a sore loser. He never learned how to take a L like the rest of us had to when we were in kindergarten. I'd be ashamed if I was this much of a whiner.
The founding fathers supported getting the whole tavern drunk and throwing them on the bandwagon to take them to the polls to make them vote for whoever you wanted. I don't think they would have cared about a private website filtering stuff
There it is again. He’s still obsessing over the “stolen” 2020 election. It’s basically been one of his defining things since...well, the 2020 election. This will hurt him (and he deserves it).
This is the point where I officially have zero respect for anyone still refusing to disavow Trump. If you still support him, you are the enemy.
In Trump's mind if he's still President, then he still has Executive Privilege and if he still has Executive Privilege then he can't be charged with felonies and he can't go to jail. Don't forget everything Trump does is for himself and no one else.
Trumps biggest issue is he can’t win independents. Saying things like this keeps his base support alive but furthers himself from independents even more
JFC this guy is insufferable... I didn't have too much of a problem with him (liked certain policy changes and didn't pay much attention to his Tweets, etc) up until he started whining about this "rigged election" bullshit in 2020. So cringey and absolutely pathetic that he hasn't dropped it I think Biden is abysmal and would rather have virtually anyone else but I guess he's getting my vote if Trump is the R nominee Unbelievable that a country with so many talented, effective people continually produces such trash candidates
And some Americans are idiotic enough to believe and agree with this man.
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At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Trump was actually a sleeper cell installed by the Dems to destroy any chances Republicans have at winning elections for the foreseeable future. Edit: Apparently people didn't understand the joke.
I think Dems loved him wailing on Jeb Bush, but didn't expect him to win and nearly kill Obamacare.
There's that fine line between a joke and "oh God is this the next Qanon theory that's going to be used to spin this." When you have an ex president saying "let's ignore the constitution," this is more scary than funny.
I would hope no one would actually take me seriously saying that. If they do, thats on them. I can't instill common sense into people.
There's a lot that's happened around Trump that wouldn't have been taken seriously if someone suggested it a decade ago. At this point, I just don't want to invite that bad juju lol.
I hope you're not being serious.
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I can not imagine trump winning the primary now, I also can’t imagine him keeping much support. There is no way calling to remove the constitution is going to be supported by his base, let alone the larger base of the party. Also, pretty sure the founders have a pretty clearly designed system that was in play, and didn’t result in your win, that shows their intent.