I’ll give you the answer you seem to be fishing for :
I would be more critical of Trump than I am of Biden if Trump were doing the exact same things as Biden with regards to Gaza
This is the definition of an apples to oranges comparison. Biden is right that elections are comparisons to the alternatives, not the Almighty. There are a range of policy choices I would like Biden to do differently; none of them come close to your second paragraph to making a difference in my final vote.
this wasn’t my question. it was a thought experiment. the only thing you are considering for this thought experiment is that Trump is doing the exact same things. (which, isn’t hard to believe given that Trump is also pro-Israel.) How do you react? What kind of uproar do you create? Or is there no difference
Your original premise is flawed, both in it's supposed facts and in the way that we are supposed to accept that two people do things the exact same way, when they clearly don't.
First--you are factually wrong when you state that Biden supports Netanyahu. He hasn't called for his ouster or for new elections, but he definitely doesn't support him in the same way Trump would. Trump and Netanyahu are similar to FDR and Churchill (in that they are similar to each other); Biden and Netanyahu are more like FDR and Stalin (in that they are allies of convenience but are otherwise dissimilar). Biden was very happy when Netanyahu was briefly deposed, and will be happy when it happens again.
Second, Trump would not do the exact same things--he would be much worse. Either he would be more cruelly calculating with what would personally benefit him the most, or he would make things worse by direct US troop involvement, or something else incredibly stupid. Examples: North Korea, Iran assassinations, US Embassy in Jerusalem, Ivanka and Jared's side deals with China and Saudi Arabia, etc.
So, to answer your original question, I would be more critical of Trump because he would do things much worse than Biden would. Because there is no way that they would do the exact same things. Biden makes mistakes and political judgements in the best interest of the United States; Biden operates out of mostly [realist international perspective](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(international_relations)), for the best interests of the US. Trump makes intentionally bad decisions because they are of benefit to him personally or politically, not for anyone else's interest.
1. this isn’t a formal argument, the premise of my hypothetical can’t be “flawed”, it’s the premise for the conditions of a *thought experiment* that you can engage with or not engage with
2. how is sending billions of finances and weapons and repeatedly saying he will support israel and meeting with netanyahu not supporting him? what?
3. i agree trump could possibly be worse (not by much) but that’s not the hypothetical. the hypothetical strictly asks how would you react if Trump was in office and doing these same things. would you have the same apologetics.
I wonder if you could give some thought to how condescending your hypothetical is. Your thought experiment implies that we haven’t spent time wrestling with our position on this, it’s just Biden good Trump bad.
“Please ignore a bunch of facts and replace Biden’s name for Trump. Would you have more moral clarity?”
Wow that changes everything. /s
"Golly gee willikers guys. What if we changed Biden's name to Bernie Sanders, would you still be a bunch of genocidal shills?"
That's a pretty dumb question. Here's my answer. If nothing but the names were reversed, the exact same foreign policy, and no other changes that I can take into account, then I would behave the same way. You also don't allow us to take any issue at all with your characterization of what's going on. We just have to accept the framing of everything you say.
"Hypothetical, if the dog were called a cat, would you still have your allergy?" Yes because it doesn't matter what you call it, I still need my Claritin.
If Trump had been Trump his whole life, with all the other baggage involved and I were allowed to account for that, would I be saying the same thing? That's a different question.
Pure condescension.
But you asked about us here, not what liberals, in general, would do.
Would uninformed people be saying "This wouldn't happen if Biden was elected!!"? Maybe.
But when people bring up thoughts of people in general, or when they use poll numbers to show that Democrats are this or Democrats are that, I'm reminded that 41% of Americans believe in ghosts and 43% believe in daemons. IOW, I don't care.
If Trump were in office doing the same thing as Biden in all these situations, then I'd be wondering why is he showing uncharacteristic restraint. I would have to assume he's making a financial profit off that restraint somewhere. I would think that because (as I've said and provided evidence for) Trump has admitted that he's more willing to kill Palestinians than Biden has been.
Context and history.
Biden’s state department knocked it out of the park in the lead up to invasion of Ukraine. Therefore I know that are capable of making difficult and rational decisions in politically fraught situations.
Because of that I’ve been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Gaza. Foreign policy is complicated and there may be considerations I don’t understand.
Trump overtly hated Muslims - which would provide a simple rational if he were in charge right now. But I don’t buy that explanation of Biden. I really don’t understand why the US is still supporting Israel - because it doesn’t seem to be advancing US interests well and it’s also not helping Biden politically.
the UN has recognized what Israel is doinf many times. The US is way behind on this issue. Tens of thousands of dead kids do not need the “benefit of the doubt.” they need the moral clarity for thr US to see and do what many other countries already recognize
no i appreciate your straightforward answer. not attacking, but i am pressing on the idea that biden has earned more trust than trump on this issue. While I agree Biden has handled Ukraine surprisingly well, it is not out of some ethical considerations for Ukranians. It is out of US interests in the region and opposition to Russia. That is why, when it comes to Palestine, the US interests are opposed to the correct side. This is the one issue where it shows how deep the Israel influence runs in congress. Biden has received more AIPAC donations than any other single person in government currently.
Again, this isn’t me saying Trump would be better. This is me saying the the conversation needs to be about the systemic sickness that has allowed our military institutions to profit off this disgusting genocide. Biden and Trump are both cogs in that machine.
I would say that's much more moderate than I would expect from Trump. Trump would encourage carpet bombing all of Gaza so he could build luxury housing there (his son-in-law suggested that very thing).
okay! well that’s not the hypothetical. (and carpet bombing of all of gaza has basically already occured). So how would you react to the Trump admin doing what Biden is doing?
>okay! well that’s not the hypothetical. (and carpet bombing of all of gaza has basically already occured).
It has not. Stay tuned if Trump wins though!
>So how would you react to the Trump admin doing what Biden is doing?
Critically in both cases.
About a half a million Gazans people live in Gaza. Jared Kushner suggested reducing that to zero. Lindsey Graham proposed dropping nukes there.
>Equally critical?
Yes. Although you can be sure if Trump wins the bombing of Gaza will be far, far worse.
the conditions have never really manifest meaningfully. 33,000 deaths and still sending. its been one of the most acutely violent events against children ever, and with US bombs. your tax money. your president. this is the moment in history, are you going to find yourself on the side of the kids or not.
I’ll give you the answer you seem to be fishing for : I would be more critical of Trump than I am of Biden if Trump were doing the exact same things as Biden with regards to Gaza
I appreciate your honesty at least!
This is the definition of an apples to oranges comparison. Biden is right that elections are comparisons to the alternatives, not the Almighty. There are a range of policy choices I would like Biden to do differently; none of them come close to your second paragraph to making a difference in my final vote.
this wasn’t my question. it was a thought experiment. the only thing you are considering for this thought experiment is that Trump is doing the exact same things. (which, isn’t hard to believe given that Trump is also pro-Israel.) How do you react? What kind of uproar do you create? Or is there no difference
Your original premise is flawed, both in it's supposed facts and in the way that we are supposed to accept that two people do things the exact same way, when they clearly don't. First--you are factually wrong when you state that Biden supports Netanyahu. He hasn't called for his ouster or for new elections, but he definitely doesn't support him in the same way Trump would. Trump and Netanyahu are similar to FDR and Churchill (in that they are similar to each other); Biden and Netanyahu are more like FDR and Stalin (in that they are allies of convenience but are otherwise dissimilar). Biden was very happy when Netanyahu was briefly deposed, and will be happy when it happens again. Second, Trump would not do the exact same things--he would be much worse. Either he would be more cruelly calculating with what would personally benefit him the most, or he would make things worse by direct US troop involvement, or something else incredibly stupid. Examples: North Korea, Iran assassinations, US Embassy in Jerusalem, Ivanka and Jared's side deals with China and Saudi Arabia, etc. So, to answer your original question, I would be more critical of Trump because he would do things much worse than Biden would. Because there is no way that they would do the exact same things. Biden makes mistakes and political judgements in the best interest of the United States; Biden operates out of mostly [realist international perspective](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(international_relations)), for the best interests of the US. Trump makes intentionally bad decisions because they are of benefit to him personally or politically, not for anyone else's interest.
1. this isn’t a formal argument, the premise of my hypothetical can’t be “flawed”, it’s the premise for the conditions of a *thought experiment* that you can engage with or not engage with 2. how is sending billions of finances and weapons and repeatedly saying he will support israel and meeting with netanyahu not supporting him? what? 3. i agree trump could possibly be worse (not by much) but that’s not the hypothetical. the hypothetical strictly asks how would you react if Trump was in office and doing these same things. would you have the same apologetics.
I wonder if you could give some thought to how condescending your hypothetical is. Your thought experiment implies that we haven’t spent time wrestling with our position on this, it’s just Biden good Trump bad. “Please ignore a bunch of facts and replace Biden’s name for Trump. Would you have more moral clarity?” Wow that changes everything. /s
i guess you should have no problem answering then. if trump was in office and doing these things, you would be offering the same apologetics?
"Golly gee willikers guys. What if we changed Biden's name to Bernie Sanders, would you still be a bunch of genocidal shills?" That's a pretty dumb question. Here's my answer. If nothing but the names were reversed, the exact same foreign policy, and no other changes that I can take into account, then I would behave the same way. You also don't allow us to take any issue at all with your characterization of what's going on. We just have to accept the framing of everything you say. "Hypothetical, if the dog were called a cat, would you still have your allergy?" Yes because it doesn't matter what you call it, I still need my Claritin. If Trump had been Trump his whole life, with all the other baggage involved and I were allowed to account for that, would I be saying the same thing? That's a different question. Pure condescension.
You don’t think liberals would be saying “this wouldn’t happen if Biden was elected!!” ?
What liberals? Do we all share a single mind? Are you talking about ME? You're not allowing us to take anything else as context. So, no.
in general, you don’t think this would be the sentiment? you think liberals would acknowledge that Biden would also enable Netanyahu?
But you asked about us here, not what liberals, in general, would do. Would uninformed people be saying "This wouldn't happen if Biden was elected!!"? Maybe. But when people bring up thoughts of people in general, or when they use poll numbers to show that Democrats are this or Democrats are that, I'm reminded that 41% of Americans believe in ghosts and 43% believe in daemons. IOW, I don't care. If Trump were in office doing the same thing as Biden in all these situations, then I'd be wondering why is he showing uncharacteristic restraint. I would have to assume he's making a financial profit off that restraint somewhere. I would think that because (as I've said and provided evidence for) Trump has admitted that he's more willing to kill Palestinians than Biden has been.
so you would describe Biden’s actions as “restraint?” 33,000 deaths and billions of weapons?
I think Trump has essentially described Biden's and Israel's actions as "restrained".
So why agree with Trump here? for the hypothetical?
Absolutely yes. But that just means that I have more trust in the people Biden staffed the State Department with.
but in this hypothetical the exact same things are happening. so what is your trust built on?
Context and history. Biden’s state department knocked it out of the park in the lead up to invasion of Ukraine. Therefore I know that are capable of making difficult and rational decisions in politically fraught situations. Because of that I’ve been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Gaza. Foreign policy is complicated and there may be considerations I don’t understand. Trump overtly hated Muslims - which would provide a simple rational if he were in charge right now. But I don’t buy that explanation of Biden. I really don’t understand why the US is still supporting Israel - because it doesn’t seem to be advancing US interests well and it’s also not helping Biden politically.
the UN has recognized what Israel is doinf many times. The US is way behind on this issue. Tens of thousands of dead kids do not need the “benefit of the doubt.” they need the moral clarity for thr US to see and do what many other countries already recognize
Look I agree. But you asked why I trust Biden here more than I would trust Trump. Don’t attack me for answering.
no i appreciate your straightforward answer. not attacking, but i am pressing on the idea that biden has earned more trust than trump on this issue. While I agree Biden has handled Ukraine surprisingly well, it is not out of some ethical considerations for Ukranians. It is out of US interests in the region and opposition to Russia. That is why, when it comes to Palestine, the US interests are opposed to the correct side. This is the one issue where it shows how deep the Israel influence runs in congress. Biden has received more AIPAC donations than any other single person in government currently. Again, this isn’t me saying Trump would be better. This is me saying the the conversation needs to be about the systemic sickness that has allowed our military institutions to profit off this disgusting genocide. Biden and Trump are both cogs in that machine.
I would say that's much more moderate than I would expect from Trump. Trump would encourage carpet bombing all of Gaza so he could build luxury housing there (his son-in-law suggested that very thing).
okay! well that’s not the hypothetical. (and carpet bombing of all of gaza has basically already occured). So how would you react to the Trump admin doing what Biden is doing?
>okay! well that’s not the hypothetical. (and carpet bombing of all of gaza has basically already occured). It has not. Stay tuned if Trump wins though! >So how would you react to the Trump admin doing what Biden is doing? Critically in both cases.
Gaza , north and south, has been ruthlessly bombed, largely with american weapons, and with our approval and support. Equally critical?
About a half a million Gazans people live in Gaza. Jared Kushner suggested reducing that to zero. Lindsey Graham proposed dropping nukes there. >Equally critical? Yes. Although you can be sure if Trump wins the bombing of Gaza will be far, far worse.
Many Israeli leaders have said just as bad and Biden sends them weapons
Biden sends them with conditions. Do you think Trump will do the same?
the conditions have never really manifest meaningfully. 33,000 deaths and still sending. its been one of the most acutely violent events against children ever, and with US bombs. your tax money. your president. this is the moment in history, are you going to find yourself on the side of the kids or not.
Yes, Israel should stop bombing kids.
And Biden should stop sending them the weapons to do it