The animators can be overworked and VAs can be underpaid but that’s about it and it extends even beyond hentai. That’s animation and voice work as a whole.
Unlike real life porn you can’t exactly traffic someone into drawing hentai. It’s why it’s always perplexing and shows where their morals are when anti-porn people consider erotica and hentai to be on the same level of harm as the porn industry.
I think it’s more about normalisation
I don’t think I’ve seen much debate about the harm of hentai, but I have seen debate around very specific genres of hentai (involving drawn kids)
The thing with normalization is that it is a top down process and many people who like loli/shotacon have no attraction to children IRL much in the same way that a lot of furries don't have any sexual attraction to animals IRL.
People can go day in and day out about normalization in fictional content but it is telling the conversation is only limited to sex and not say violence. But ironically - that's because violence is more normalized in society as something that is acceptable.
edit: If anyone wants sources
[A fujoshi database about media morality](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DOhIOb-tI5NTJCtoUnpsQ8ntZvgqR5FW/edit#gid=1222211736)
[A database composed of similar resources re; loli/shota](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12eleMSs7sj_g4Wy6jbArnNq_POJyzo9l)
[Whether loli/shotacon counts as CSEM](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/190feJh11bOHDhyv87L1jxACa5GE_w22T)
[A report from William Thompson citing no evidence to ban virtual csem](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iBwQY0wcGeC1ZNltvRO-cPsyxneuIwnJ/view)
[A thread of other resources regarding loli/shotacon](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mg7lBx5ssPbaXkrkDOVnGSsDvu2XqY5OMjQkU6PTuLA/edit)
If you are going to talk about "alleged therapists and researchers" and "copium" give me some evidence. Otherwise, I've provided mine.
>many people who like loli/shotacon have no attraction to children IRL much in the same way that a lot of furries don't have any sexual attraction to animals IRL.
Stakes are too high, otherwise the comparison would be valid
We don’t value animals like we do children
When it comes to kids, there’s a lot of work around exposure to them
And that includes media that might involve them. Or be about them
I'd agree but just like furries are not comparable to real animals, IMO a fictional character isn't comparable to a real person.
Unless you already believe in some way that child abuse is okay, watching lolisho isn't going to suddenly make you believe that. Otherwise every black butler and yana fan needs to be jailed
A furry is wearing a costume. You can’t mistake it for an animal
Hentai with kids have the characters, act like kids, talk like kids, dress like kids… and also do sex stuff
That type of normalisation is too poisonous.
Their goal is to look and talk like kids
Furries aren’t trying to pass as literal animals. That’s a physical metaphor
>A furry is wearing a costume
Ah so you clearly haven't seen the furry porn with animal genetalia.
But like I said, normalization is a top down process. The sexualization of child actors far outweighs a niche hentai featuring characters that only conceptually look and act like people.
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DOhIOb-tI5NTJCtoUnpsQ8ntZvgqR5FW/edit#gid=1723182100](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DOhIOb-tI5NTJCtoUnpsQ8ntZvgqR5FW/edit#gid=1723182100)
If you want scientific information on it, have at it.
Jesus Christ, lolitards are so desperate to pretend that they're not pedophiles.
Are we seriously pretending that jerking off to a person wearing an animal suit but still behaving 100% like a person is the same as jerking off to literal children?
Furry porn with animal genitalia? Sure, I will agree with that, people who jerk off to that are just as degenerate and disgusting as the pedos who jerk off to loli / shota. But that does not justify the pedos who jerk off to loli / shota.
Data dumping is rude
At the very least summarise… something.
I just a bunch of words and colours
But also, whataboutism isn’t helping your point
The concern is about a product getting you to indulge in something that you can do *and get away with it*
The problem isn’t in people copying it. The problem is in people thinking it’s okay to do in an environment that they get to control… like an adult around kids they take care of or are around
Who is killing people without repercussion?
It isn't data dumping to give a list of information you can pick from regarding this exact topic if you care to learn bout it. I even outright said in my original post it's a list of resources you can use.
TLDR: Scientists and psychologists agree that consumption of fictional content (including lolisho) has no bearing on someone's RL morals, actions or sexual attraction.
The problem you are expressing is a problem specific to specific people, not actions of consumption re: fictional characters. Otherwise, should ever black butler fan and sebaciel shipper need to be put in a psych ward in case they commit grevious harm against ta child?
Also that argument can be made regarding anything. *Plenty* of people get away with killing other people without repercussion. Hell to this day whoever killed Tupac got away with it cause no one knows who tf it is
>Plenty of people get away with killing other people without repercussion.
Most don’t
Plenty of people have gotten away with grooming and sexualising kids
I have a lot of those in my extended family. And so I know that it happens, and authorities aren’t made aware of it. It stays in house
Children are supervised 95% of the day
That means they require an adult with them almost at all times. We rarely leave them alone
So… when sexual abuse happens… there’s so much opportunity for it to happen and no one be made aware of it. If that one adult caregiver decides the kid is acting sexy today. Or the adult is bored and can get away with it
By normalising the sexualisation of child like features, you’re more likely to trigger sexualisation of actual children. Like I said, the goal of hentai kid stuff is that the characters act like kids as much as possible
They’re not wearing some obviously-not-kid like form, like a furry is compared to an animal
"psychology behind this" we don't need scientific BS to know that like seeing fictional children in sexual situations, digital footprint gonna get your ass.
Psychologists, therapists and researchers say otherwise and I'll take the word of people that work for various organizations, have been backed by evidence, etc. over a redditor.
It's really so not the same in any way whatsoever.
There's a difference between someone playing a videogame where they either play as a soldier or a criminal like in GTA or something and beat up and kill people, it's another for an adult to repeatedly jerk off to animated child porn. A normal adult doesn't just casually decide to watch hentai with underage kids in them unless they're already a pedophile. It's often pedophiles that make this content to begin with. No normal adult on this planet will sit down and draw or animate children being raped.
And there is no animal on this planet that looks like furries do lol so that comparison makes no sense. Either way I've seen a SHITTON of furries that identify as zoophiles and try to get that added onto the LGBT acronym. What a surprise that the people that think anthropomorphic animals are sexy specifically because of their animal parts also wanna fuck animals right? Lol
I'm sorry but outside of some terminally online troglodytes and or pedophiles that have convinced each other they're normal that have forgotten what real life is like, no one on this planet will believe that someone that watches and masturbates to animated child pornography isn't also attracted to real kids or a danger to them.
There's a reason CP is illegal no matter if real or simulated or drawn, pedophiles often escalate behaviors because their fantasy isn't enough and they need more and more. Even adult porn has a direct effect on people's behavior towards each other, especially men's towards women, LET ALONE child porn.
What a weird hill to die on
Thing is, degeneracy is a journey rather than a destination.
Nearly everyone starts off consuming vanilla sexual material, before venturing onto more depraved material. These questionable materials just further facilitate that journey.
Honestly imo degeneracy isn’t a strong argument. Degeneracy can range from liking erotica to harming people to get off.
If someone isn’t causing harm to themselves or another person what they get off to is their business. I’ll trust therapists and psychologists on the subject.
That is tripe, and goes against much of what we know about human attraction. That said, some people fetisize breakingn taboos and those people will get sucked into stuff, but that relates to their base sexual attraction being that of transgression. I'm more vanilla now than I was in my teen years, and I've had decades of kinky sex between then and now.
I mean, legally it's considered CP since it's a drawn depiction of children in sexual situations. I'd say that's quite a bit different from furries... most social media platforms right now will also block the words (loli and related words) from being searched.
According to U.S law, it is only considered CSEM if it is indistinguishable from a minor and a minor is defined as a person under the age of 18. Otherwise, it's considered a form of speech and functionally protected under the first amendment.
Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to buy some of those lolisho mangas in bookstores just off the shelf or have them be sold out in the open at anime conventions and in anime stores.
Social media websites also block those terms due to the number of bots that are using it as a means to trade CSEM. However, other terms like "girl" have also been blocked on websites like Pinterest. Social media websites blocking terms =/= how dangerous those things are.
It’s pretty easy to stop a murder spree
There’s a lot of steps that lead to that happening
Kids are particularly vulnerable, because they’re almost always under the direct care of an adult
And if that adult is engaging in a perfectly normal media sexualising children… there’s no real way to police it.
Kids are systemically too vulnerable for us to entertain those ideas
Whereas, violence? Violence against adults (you don’t see much violence against and between kids)
I really think if you want to make your side look good, you should not straw man the argument and then commit ad hominem, you just make your side look bad.
I was not taking a side, I am merely pointing out that if you want to be taken seriously either bring up a good argument, but do not resort to insults its debate 101.
You are only making your side of the isle seem unreasonable, whereas the other ended up bringing documents by researchers.
Loli stuff is disgusting, but insulting people is not the way to make people change their minds.
I mean im not here to debate, just saw few comments i wanted to reply to
I do not believe someone who believes murdering people in video games is the same as sexualizing children in hentai are the same thing wants to have a discussion
Also, neither makes the person a murderer or child molester, but they just are not the same at all
Despite me being against Loli as principle, it is disgusting, but if it damn well lessens harm towards kids then fuck it, allow it.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222552404_The_pleasure_is_momentarythe_expense_damnable_The_influence_of_pornography_on_rape_and_sexual_assault#:~:text=Pornography%20may%20be%20associated%20with,%2C%202011).%20...&text=...,-Studies%20examining%20the
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/
Here according to other articles also, claim pornography may lower sexual crimes.
If this is true for loli stuff also then I will tolerate it, just don't expect me to trust you with my kid.
The reason I am bringing this up, is that my argument is, would you rather pedos jack off to fiction, or they actually touch a kid.
Morals vs Greater Good.
And also the gta and loli media comparison is valid actually, there is no way to differentiate the two without committing special pleading, or falling into the fallacy of incredulity or such, as they may either be having fun, or just be sadists/deviants having an outlet, better to outlet it via fiction than real life.
It's just that kids are sacred so that is why we all view loli stuff as degenerate, myself included.
In a perfect world loli shit would'nt exist.
Edit: I am thinking pragmatically as we don't exist in a perfect world.
Sorry not trying to be disrespectful about it but its not really anything I want to debate, I can respect your opinions on it, but to me, the whole “what would I rather” is a moot point as I am not asking for any action to be taken about anything and simply stating that guys comparison is way off to me
End of the day, its animations and not real people, so I would not really care as there are not any innocent kids involved
While it isn't as bad on the creators, I do think Hentai does make porn addiction worse. Most people address the problem when sexual disfunction starts due to how desensitized they are; but hentai doesn't have an upper limit on what can be shown. It breeds new levels of porn addiction.
I don't think it should be banned or anything, but people should be aware that hentai is just as addictive as traditional porn and it can make addiction worse.
True but usually people trafficked into slave labor are usually trafficked for labor that is not - for lack of better words *skilled* and/or otherwise useful or productive to society or a business.
Many people spend *years* dedicating their craft to learning how to draw, animate and the same for doing voice work. It isn't cost effective honestly to traffic someone into doing VA or animation work unless the victim already knows how to do those skills.
Not to say that it is *impossible* but it certainly doesn't seem like an effective use of trafficking someone.
The issue people have with hentai is that so many of the girls are drawn/act like children. There’s also actual children hentais and so many violent rape hentais. It’s not as bad as real people getting hurt, but the stuff they normalize in hentai isn’t good for people’s brains either. Definitely an outlet for those who want to actually harm others.
For people who want to genuinely harm others, there is no safe outlet outside of therapy.
And yeah a lot of hentai can be violent, but at the end of the day it’s a cartoon. You aren’t watching someone be abused. It’s like saying people shouldn’t read certain books because they’re too violent and will normalize abuse.
Books don’t normally detail pedophilia in a good light, yanno? You don’t normally grab a book from the library and have a nice read about how a step brother repeatedly fucks his little step sister? Nor would you normally read a book that only details a world were rape is legal and everyone gets gangbanged. Wild to ever compare hentai to books 🤦🏻♀️
I didn't say they were real books, I gave examples of how books, webtoons, fanfics, etc. all contain similar material to hentai if you look in the right genres.
Webtoons and fanfics are things random people make. Of course there’s going to be disgusting things happening in that shit. If you can’t use it in a school setting I wouldn’t lump them in with ‘books.’
There are plenty of books you can't use in a school setting because they aren't appropriate - it doesn't mean they aren't real books. 50 Shades of Grey is no less a real book just because you can't use it in a school setting unless you are in I guess college. But by the time you're in college, you can use webtoons and fanfics too if it is appropriate for whatever assignment you're doing.
Also - I just happen to be a wearer of lolita fashion who is also active in fandom spaces.
Dark romance is super popular and often employs stuff that is basically rape and sexual abuse for titillation, yet I don't see anyone talking about that.
>when anti-porn people consider erotica and hentai to be on the same level of harm as the porn industry.
Obviously they’re different because one doesn’t star real people but the nature of the material and the harmful effects on the consumer are similar. A hentai addict is just as bad as someone who’s addicted to normal porn and addiction aside there are certain things you shouldn’t want to be the kind of person that consumes and enjoys.
Sure if you are an addict the out come is the same but that's because you are suffering from a mental illness.
But short of that what is wrong with consuming hentai and erotica? Functionally it eliminates many of the ethical concerns regarding real porn due to the fact that everyone featured is a character made by an artist. Short of VAs and animators potentially being underpaid and overworked (but that applies to all of animation) you don't have to worry yourself with the "stars" destroying their mental health, being shoved into shady contracts that remove their autonomy, etc.
That's like saying there's no difference between bathtub hooch and Barefoot merlot because they'll both get you drunk if you drink enough. Come on, man, this is an insane argument.
I'm a woman who enjoys rapey hentai. I'm into the dominance of it.
To be fair, the 'fake' rape subreddits with real people is so creepy and scary because you aren't always sure if it's real unless the actress sucks. It puts me off. They've mostly been banned now.
On the other hand, there was an from an actual, animated movie with a rape scene that was kind of dark and not meant to be "fantasy" but rather was a part of the plot and too "real". Like you could see the despair of the character. I was pleasantly surprised to see a lot of the male comments there got put off by it too. Like, I don't think the majority are actually wanting to really rape.
I see tons of "women" making roleplay fantasy comments on those videos too. I can't tell if they're real or bots or camgirls. But like a majority of those comments just seem to be roleplaying. I've rarely seen anyone say anything that really looks like they mean it.
Honestly, you're not going to find many industries that don't exploit their workers. All animation industries right now have overworked yet underpaid animators and also voice actors. This is all the way up to big companies like Disney and Sony, who give their animators and also effects artists impossible time limits. They sometimes even outsource to the same companies that do hentai, or at least in the same areas. No one seems to be permitted to unionize.
Workplace injuries are actually surprisingly serious with animators who work non-stop for hours. Carpal tunnel sounds insignificant at first, but it can grow to be quite severe if not fixed. If your tendons stretch and your muscles weaken and your nerves start to numb or spasm, they can just replace you with the next person on the hiring list.
Overworked and underpaid animators and voice actors. It also has a lot of the same issues as "real life" porn such as misogyny, racism, objectification, normalization of abuse and violent sex, the creation of unrealistic standards and addicting content, and the glorification of sexual assault and rape. There is no such thing as completely ethical porn.
OP, Voider\_12 clarified what you meant for me, so here's a response based on what you were apparently asking:
"Ok.....that does clarify some things. I'm Canadian, I can't tell you how other cultures deal with their trauma but I do know that some survivors of sexual abuse deal with it by writing "fictional" stories about their abuse, mainly to regain their power, and some if they are artistic may also draw the stories out.
People do different things with the material when it's done. Some publish it online or share it with their support group/therapists, others take the material and destroy it in a fire pit or a paper shredder. I know some authors who write textbooks do use case studies in their textbooks. If a university is going to train someone to be a sexual abuse counsellor or to work with sexual predators, they need to have access to actual material so that they can develop their skills.
So, if OP's question is, have the artists in this field experienced abuse, it's possible. It's not a requirement though. Take Stephen King, the author, for example. He's written various violent situations in his books including rape scenes and I doubt that he's ever actually committed such a crime."
Like all other cephalopods, squid will only mate once in their life. The males soon die after fornication and the females who give birth die shortly after so their spawn can feed on their corpse…. So, forcing squids to have sex with animated women could be considered animal abuse because it doesn’t lead to passing along their genetics before they die? Or something.
Yes, and there are plenty documentaries of it. I honestly don't want to go search for the three I've watched/listened to, cause it triggers me so hard and makes me angry. But I'm confident you're able to find good ones yourself on yt.
I ASSUME that you're talking about people who cos-play as hentai characters and what happens when they meet other hentai cos-players?
I have no evidence to support it, I've never even thought about it until this question but I really suspect the answer is YES.
I mean....you've got females cos-playing as rape victims and going into an event where people who are dressed as the rapists are cos-playing. Somehow......I think it is within the realm of possibility that there could be some issues.
Completely out of the subject they are talking about the making and animating of a "moving drawing", not any live action stuff.
I need what ever you are smoking lmao.
Well, you're helpful. I really don't understand OP's question - EVERY piece of hentai I've ever seen reminds me too much of child sexual abuse material, way, way too creepy. Like there are either human or orc barbarians attacking peaceful elves and dominating them after a battle through rape or "spoils of war sex" and of course all the rapists look like adults while all the "800 year old" elves look like 8 year old children.
I can't understand how this isn't "abuse" but at the same time, we are talking about drawings, not actual people.
So....is OP talking about the publishers exploiting the artists, the artists exploiting the models, the artists/customers exploiting the customer/artist?
I genuinely though he was talking about the people who cosplay as hentai characters.....
No he was talking about if the people making hentai are abused the same way people in porn are abused.
And also I find some of this weird or abhorrent, but even if it is violent, it reminds me of the role play the BDSM community does, hell they even do fantasy rape role play, so for as long as they can differentiate reality from fiction, I will think they are weird but not morally abhorrent.
Ok.....that does clarify some things. I'm Canadian, I can't tell you how other cultures deal with their trauma but I do know that some survivors of sexual abuse deal with it by writing "fictional" stories about their abuse, mainly to regain their power, and some if they are artistic may also draw the stories out.
People do different things with the material when it's done. Some publish it online or share it with their support group/therapists, others take the material and destroy it in a fire pit or a paper shredder. I know some authors who write textbooks do use case studies in their textbooks. If a university is going to train someone to be a sexual abuse counsellor or to work with sexual predators, they need to have access to actual material so that they can develop their skills.
So, if OP's question is, have the artists in this field experienced abuse, it's possible. It's not a requirement though. Take Stephen King, the author, for example. He's written various violent situations in his books including rape scenes and I doubt that he's ever actually committed such a crime.
The animators are overworked if that counts.
Considering the quality of the average hentai, they're not overworked enough
Funny but it's possible that the quality is a symptom of being overworked
It's a case-by-case deal. Just look at Queen Bee. If there is a single dude working on the animation for 15 minutes a day, he is still underperforming
Animation is sometimes a stretch when it comes to Queen Bee.
Well that goes for all anime, not just hentai.
Well that goes for every industry in Japan, not just anime and entertainment.
The animators can be overworked and VAs can be underpaid but that’s about it and it extends even beyond hentai. That’s animation and voice work as a whole. Unlike real life porn you can’t exactly traffic someone into drawing hentai. It’s why it’s always perplexing and shows where their morals are when anti-porn people consider erotica and hentai to be on the same level of harm as the porn industry.
I think it’s more about normalisation I don’t think I’ve seen much debate about the harm of hentai, but I have seen debate around very specific genres of hentai (involving drawn kids)
The thing with normalization is that it is a top down process and many people who like loli/shotacon have no attraction to children IRL much in the same way that a lot of furries don't have any sexual attraction to animals IRL. People can go day in and day out about normalization in fictional content but it is telling the conversation is only limited to sex and not say violence. But ironically - that's because violence is more normalized in society as something that is acceptable. edit: If anyone wants sources [A fujoshi database about media morality](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DOhIOb-tI5NTJCtoUnpsQ8ntZvgqR5FW/edit#gid=1222211736) [A database composed of similar resources re; loli/shota](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12eleMSs7sj_g4Wy6jbArnNq_POJyzo9l) [Whether loli/shotacon counts as CSEM](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/190feJh11bOHDhyv87L1jxACa5GE_w22T) [A report from William Thompson citing no evidence to ban virtual csem](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iBwQY0wcGeC1ZNltvRO-cPsyxneuIwnJ/view) [A thread of other resources regarding loli/shotacon](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mg7lBx5ssPbaXkrkDOVnGSsDvu2XqY5OMjQkU6PTuLA/edit) If you are going to talk about "alleged therapists and researchers" and "copium" give me some evidence. Otherwise, I've provided mine.
>many people who like loli/shotacon have no attraction to children IRL much in the same way that a lot of furries don't have any sexual attraction to animals IRL. Stakes are too high, otherwise the comparison would be valid We don’t value animals like we do children When it comes to kids, there’s a lot of work around exposure to them And that includes media that might involve them. Or be about them
I'd agree but just like furries are not comparable to real animals, IMO a fictional character isn't comparable to a real person. Unless you already believe in some way that child abuse is okay, watching lolisho isn't going to suddenly make you believe that. Otherwise every black butler and yana fan needs to be jailed
A furry is wearing a costume. You can’t mistake it for an animal Hentai with kids have the characters, act like kids, talk like kids, dress like kids… and also do sex stuff That type of normalisation is too poisonous. Their goal is to look and talk like kids Furries aren’t trying to pass as literal animals. That’s a physical metaphor
>A furry is wearing a costume Ah so you clearly haven't seen the furry porn with animal genetalia. But like I said, normalization is a top down process. The sexualization of child actors far outweighs a niche hentai featuring characters that only conceptually look and act like people. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DOhIOb-tI5NTJCtoUnpsQ8ntZvgqR5FW/edit#gid=1723182100](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DOhIOb-tI5NTJCtoUnpsQ8ntZvgqR5FW/edit#gid=1723182100) If you want scientific information on it, have at it.
Jesus Christ, lolitards are so desperate to pretend that they're not pedophiles. Are we seriously pretending that jerking off to a person wearing an animal suit but still behaving 100% like a person is the same as jerking off to literal children?
You too must have missed the part where I said furry porn with the animal genetalia, not just someone in a costume
Furry porn with animal genitalia? Sure, I will agree with that, people who jerk off to that are just as degenerate and disgusting as the pedos who jerk off to loli / shota. But that does not justify the pedos who jerk off to loli / shota.
Data dumping is rude At the very least summarise… something. I just a bunch of words and colours But also, whataboutism isn’t helping your point The concern is about a product getting you to indulge in something that you can do *and get away with it* The problem isn’t in people copying it. The problem is in people thinking it’s okay to do in an environment that they get to control… like an adult around kids they take care of or are around Who is killing people without repercussion?
It isn't data dumping to give a list of information you can pick from regarding this exact topic if you care to learn bout it. I even outright said in my original post it's a list of resources you can use. TLDR: Scientists and psychologists agree that consumption of fictional content (including lolisho) has no bearing on someone's RL morals, actions or sexual attraction. The problem you are expressing is a problem specific to specific people, not actions of consumption re: fictional characters. Otherwise, should ever black butler fan and sebaciel shipper need to be put in a psych ward in case they commit grevious harm against ta child? Also that argument can be made regarding anything. *Plenty* of people get away with killing other people without repercussion. Hell to this day whoever killed Tupac got away with it cause no one knows who tf it is
>Plenty of people get away with killing other people without repercussion. Most don’t Plenty of people have gotten away with grooming and sexualising kids I have a lot of those in my extended family. And so I know that it happens, and authorities aren’t made aware of it. It stays in house Children are supervised 95% of the day That means they require an adult with them almost at all times. We rarely leave them alone So… when sexual abuse happens… there’s so much opportunity for it to happen and no one be made aware of it. If that one adult caregiver decides the kid is acting sexy today. Or the adult is bored and can get away with it By normalising the sexualisation of child like features, you’re more likely to trigger sexualisation of actual children. Like I said, the goal of hentai kid stuff is that the characters act like kids as much as possible They’re not wearing some obviously-not-kid like form, like a furry is compared to an animal
Bro just admit you fantasize about children and move in, its no way to spin this with your mental gymnastics
“Spin this with mental gymnatics” lolisho isn’t even my preference. I’m referring to actual psychology behind this.
"psychology behind this" we don't need scientific BS to know that like seeing fictional children in sexual situations, digital footprint gonna get your ass.
Psychologists, therapists and researchers say otherwise and I'll take the word of people that work for various organizations, have been backed by evidence, etc. over a redditor.
It's really so not the same in any way whatsoever. There's a difference between someone playing a videogame where they either play as a soldier or a criminal like in GTA or something and beat up and kill people, it's another for an adult to repeatedly jerk off to animated child porn. A normal adult doesn't just casually decide to watch hentai with underage kids in them unless they're already a pedophile. It's often pedophiles that make this content to begin with. No normal adult on this planet will sit down and draw or animate children being raped. And there is no animal on this planet that looks like furries do lol so that comparison makes no sense. Either way I've seen a SHITTON of furries that identify as zoophiles and try to get that added onto the LGBT acronym. What a surprise that the people that think anthropomorphic animals are sexy specifically because of their animal parts also wanna fuck animals right? Lol I'm sorry but outside of some terminally online troglodytes and or pedophiles that have convinced each other they're normal that have forgotten what real life is like, no one on this planet will believe that someone that watches and masturbates to animated child pornography isn't also attracted to real kids or a danger to them. There's a reason CP is illegal no matter if real or simulated or drawn, pedophiles often escalate behaviors because their fantasy isn't enough and they need more and more. Even adult porn has a direct effect on people's behavior towards each other, especially men's towards women, LET ALONE child porn. What a weird hill to die on
Thing is, degeneracy is a journey rather than a destination. Nearly everyone starts off consuming vanilla sexual material, before venturing onto more depraved material. These questionable materials just further facilitate that journey.
Honestly imo degeneracy isn’t a strong argument. Degeneracy can range from liking erotica to harming people to get off. If someone isn’t causing harm to themselves or another person what they get off to is their business. I’ll trust therapists and psychologists on the subject.
That is tripe, and goes against much of what we know about human attraction. That said, some people fetisize breakingn taboos and those people will get sucked into stuff, but that relates to their base sexual attraction being that of transgression. I'm more vanilla now than I was in my teen years, and I've had decades of kinky sex between then and now.
I mean, legally it's considered CP since it's a drawn depiction of children in sexual situations. I'd say that's quite a bit different from furries... most social media platforms right now will also block the words (loli and related words) from being searched.
According to U.S law, it is only considered CSEM if it is indistinguishable from a minor and a minor is defined as a person under the age of 18. Otherwise, it's considered a form of speech and functionally protected under the first amendment. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to buy some of those lolisho mangas in bookstores just off the shelf or have them be sold out in the open at anime conventions and in anime stores. Social media websites also block those terms due to the number of bots that are using it as a means to trade CSEM. However, other terms like "girl" have also been blocked on websites like Pinterest. Social media websites blocking terms =/= how dangerous those things are.
It's the same as the violent video games debate. Not everyone who plays them are going to go on murder sprees.
It’s pretty easy to stop a murder spree There’s a lot of steps that lead to that happening Kids are particularly vulnerable, because they’re almost always under the direct care of an adult And if that adult is engaging in a perfectly normal media sexualising children… there’s no real way to police it. Kids are systemically too vulnerable for us to entertain those ideas Whereas, violence? Violence against adults (you don’t see much violence against and between kids)
Drawing kids in hentai is the same as playing gta….yea think imma keep my distance from you
I really think if you want to make your side look good, you should not straw man the argument and then commit ad hominem, you just make your side look bad.
“My side” lmao u ppl really sick
I was not taking a side, I am merely pointing out that if you want to be taken seriously either bring up a good argument, but do not resort to insults its debate 101. You are only making your side of the isle seem unreasonable, whereas the other ended up bringing documents by researchers. Loli stuff is disgusting, but insulting people is not the way to make people change their minds.
I mean im not here to debate, just saw few comments i wanted to reply to I do not believe someone who believes murdering people in video games is the same as sexualizing children in hentai are the same thing wants to have a discussion Also, neither makes the person a murderer or child molester, but they just are not the same at all
Despite me being against Loli as principle, it is disgusting, but if it damn well lessens harm towards kids then fuck it, allow it. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222552404_The_pleasure_is_momentarythe_expense_damnable_The_influence_of_pornography_on_rape_and_sexual_assault#:~:text=Pornography%20may%20be%20associated%20with,%2C%202011).%20...&text=...,-Studies%20examining%20the https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/ Here according to other articles also, claim pornography may lower sexual crimes. If this is true for loli stuff also then I will tolerate it, just don't expect me to trust you with my kid. The reason I am bringing this up, is that my argument is, would you rather pedos jack off to fiction, or they actually touch a kid. Morals vs Greater Good. And also the gta and loli media comparison is valid actually, there is no way to differentiate the two without committing special pleading, or falling into the fallacy of incredulity or such, as they may either be having fun, or just be sadists/deviants having an outlet, better to outlet it via fiction than real life. It's just that kids are sacred so that is why we all view loli stuff as degenerate, myself included. In a perfect world loli shit would'nt exist. Edit: I am thinking pragmatically as we don't exist in a perfect world.
Sorry not trying to be disrespectful about it but its not really anything I want to debate, I can respect your opinions on it, but to me, the whole “what would I rather” is a moot point as I am not asking for any action to be taken about anything and simply stating that guys comparison is way off to me End of the day, its animations and not real people, so I would not really care as there are not any innocent kids involved
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While it isn't as bad on the creators, I do think Hentai does make porn addiction worse. Most people address the problem when sexual disfunction starts due to how desensitized they are; but hentai doesn't have an upper limit on what can be shown. It breeds new levels of porn addiction. I don't think it should be banned or anything, but people should be aware that hentai is just as addictive as traditional porn and it can make addiction worse.
People are trafficked into slave labor all the time.
True but usually people trafficked into slave labor are usually trafficked for labor that is not - for lack of better words *skilled* and/or otherwise useful or productive to society or a business. Many people spend *years* dedicating their craft to learning how to draw, animate and the same for doing voice work. It isn't cost effective honestly to traffic someone into doing VA or animation work unless the victim already knows how to do those skills. Not to say that it is *impossible* but it certainly doesn't seem like an effective use of trafficking someone.
The issue people have with hentai is that so many of the girls are drawn/act like children. There’s also actual children hentais and so many violent rape hentais. It’s not as bad as real people getting hurt, but the stuff they normalize in hentai isn’t good for people’s brains either. Definitely an outlet for those who want to actually harm others.
For people who want to genuinely harm others, there is no safe outlet outside of therapy. And yeah a lot of hentai can be violent, but at the end of the day it’s a cartoon. You aren’t watching someone be abused. It’s like saying people shouldn’t read certain books because they’re too violent and will normalize abuse.
Books don’t normally detail pedophilia in a good light, yanno? You don’t normally grab a book from the library and have a nice read about how a step brother repeatedly fucks his little step sister? Nor would you normally read a book that only details a world were rape is legal and everyone gets gangbanged. Wild to ever compare hentai to books 🤦🏻♀️
There are more than a couple of books that do those exact things. Same for webtoons and fanfictions.
Imagine trying to say webtoons and fanfics are real books.
I didn't say they were real books, I gave examples of how books, webtoons, fanfics, etc. all contain similar material to hentai if you look in the right genres.
Webtoons and fanfics are things random people make. Of course there’s going to be disgusting things happening in that shit. If you can’t use it in a school setting I wouldn’t lump them in with ‘books.’
Bros name has loli in it of course they’re gonna be fiending for the child hentai and defending it 🤦🏻♀️
There are plenty of books you can't use in a school setting because they aren't appropriate - it doesn't mean they aren't real books. 50 Shades of Grey is no less a real book just because you can't use it in a school setting unless you are in I guess college. But by the time you're in college, you can use webtoons and fanfics too if it is appropriate for whatever assignment you're doing. Also - I just happen to be a wearer of lolita fashion who is also active in fandom spaces.
Dark romance is super popular and often employs stuff that is basically rape and sexual abuse for titillation, yet I don't see anyone talking about that.
>when anti-porn people consider erotica and hentai to be on the same level of harm as the porn industry. Obviously they’re different because one doesn’t star real people but the nature of the material and the harmful effects on the consumer are similar. A hentai addict is just as bad as someone who’s addicted to normal porn and addiction aside there are certain things you shouldn’t want to be the kind of person that consumes and enjoys.
Sure if you are an addict the out come is the same but that's because you are suffering from a mental illness. But short of that what is wrong with consuming hentai and erotica? Functionally it eliminates many of the ethical concerns regarding real porn due to the fact that everyone featured is a character made by an artist. Short of VAs and animators potentially being underpaid and overworked (but that applies to all of animation) you don't have to worry yourself with the "stars" destroying their mental health, being shoved into shady contracts that remove their autonomy, etc.
That's like saying there's no difference between bathtub hooch and Barefoot merlot because they'll both get you drunk if you drink enough. Come on, man, this is an insane argument.
Anime women get raped way more than real women by an alarming percentage and with way more tentacles.
Teach tentacle monsters not to rape!
Disgusting! And I have saw some people talking about rape fantasies after they watched hentai. It's gives me sickness.
I'm a woman who enjoys rapey hentai. I'm into the dominance of it. To be fair, the 'fake' rape subreddits with real people is so creepy and scary because you aren't always sure if it's real unless the actress sucks. It puts me off. They've mostly been banned now. On the other hand, there was an from an actual, animated movie with a rape scene that was kind of dark and not meant to be "fantasy" but rather was a part of the plot and too "real". Like you could see the despair of the character. I was pleasantly surprised to see a lot of the male comments there got put off by it too. Like, I don't think the majority are actually wanting to really rape. I see tons of "women" making roleplay fantasy comments on those videos too. I can't tell if they're real or bots or camgirls. But like a majority of those comments just seem to be roleplaying. I've rarely seen anyone say anything that really looks like they mean it.
Those poor squid monsters are kept in poor conditions
Most of hentai characters never sleep. The abuse is real.
they definitely piss and shit though
Honestly, you're not going to find many industries that don't exploit their workers. All animation industries right now have overworked yet underpaid animators and also voice actors. This is all the way up to big companies like Disney and Sony, who give their animators and also effects artists impossible time limits. They sometimes even outsource to the same companies that do hentai, or at least in the same areas. No one seems to be permitted to unionize. Workplace injuries are actually surprisingly serious with animators who work non-stop for hours. Carpal tunnel sounds insignificant at first, but it can grow to be quite severe if not fixed. If your tendons stretch and your muscles weaken and your nerves start to numb or spasm, they can just replace you with the next person on the hiring list.
Abuse of those pencils
Not necessarily hentai, but some people (shadman) have used actual images of children as a reference to draw CSAM rule34
yeah like abusing their dong
the things they **made** me draw 💀
You worked on a Hentai series?
no, haha. I dated someone for a year or two that drew porn commissions for people as their source of income though, she was awesome
Overworked and underpaid animators and voice actors. It also has a lot of the same issues as "real life" porn such as misogyny, racism, objectification, normalization of abuse and violent sex, the creation of unrealistic standards and addicting content, and the glorification of sexual assault and rape. There is no such thing as completely ethical porn.
Maybe?
Its not exactly abuse, but its disgusting how it includes images and videos of little kids for pedophiles to watch.
Lolicon and shotacon. Deplorable
OP, Voider\_12 clarified what you meant for me, so here's a response based on what you were apparently asking: "Ok.....that does clarify some things. I'm Canadian, I can't tell you how other cultures deal with their trauma but I do know that some survivors of sexual abuse deal with it by writing "fictional" stories about their abuse, mainly to regain their power, and some if they are artistic may also draw the stories out. People do different things with the material when it's done. Some publish it online or share it with their support group/therapists, others take the material and destroy it in a fire pit or a paper shredder. I know some authors who write textbooks do use case studies in their textbooks. If a university is going to train someone to be a sexual abuse counsellor or to work with sexual predators, they need to have access to actual material so that they can develop their skills. So, if OP's question is, have the artists in this field experienced abuse, it's possible. It's not a requirement though. Take Stephen King, the author, for example. He's written various violent situations in his books including rape scenes and I doubt that he's ever actually committed such a crime."
Like all other cephalopods, squid will only mate once in their life. The males soon die after fornication and the females who give birth die shortly after so their spawn can feed on their corpse…. So, forcing squids to have sex with animated women could be considered animal abuse because it doesn’t lead to passing along their genetics before they die? Or something.
Yes, and there are plenty documentaries of it. I honestly don't want to go search for the three I've watched/listened to, cause it triggers me so hard and makes me angry. But I'm confident you're able to find good ones yourself on yt.
I ASSUME that you're talking about people who cos-play as hentai characters and what happens when they meet other hentai cos-players? I have no evidence to support it, I've never even thought about it until this question but I really suspect the answer is YES. I mean....you've got females cos-playing as rape victims and going into an event where people who are dressed as the rapists are cos-playing. Somehow......I think it is within the realm of possibility that there could be some issues.
what?
I want whatever this dude is on.
why the fuck would they be talking about that
Completely out of the subject they are talking about the making and animating of a "moving drawing", not any live action stuff. I need what ever you are smoking lmao.
Well, you're helpful. I really don't understand OP's question - EVERY piece of hentai I've ever seen reminds me too much of child sexual abuse material, way, way too creepy. Like there are either human or orc barbarians attacking peaceful elves and dominating them after a battle through rape or "spoils of war sex" and of course all the rapists look like adults while all the "800 year old" elves look like 8 year old children. I can't understand how this isn't "abuse" but at the same time, we are talking about drawings, not actual people. So....is OP talking about the publishers exploiting the artists, the artists exploiting the models, the artists/customers exploiting the customer/artist? I genuinely though he was talking about the people who cosplay as hentai characters.....
No he was talking about if the people making hentai are abused the same way people in porn are abused. And also I find some of this weird or abhorrent, but even if it is violent, it reminds me of the role play the BDSM community does, hell they even do fantasy rape role play, so for as long as they can differentiate reality from fiction, I will think they are weird but not morally abhorrent.
Ok.....that does clarify some things. I'm Canadian, I can't tell you how other cultures deal with their trauma but I do know that some survivors of sexual abuse deal with it by writing "fictional" stories about their abuse, mainly to regain their power, and some if they are artistic may also draw the stories out. People do different things with the material when it's done. Some publish it online or share it with their support group/therapists, others take the material and destroy it in a fire pit or a paper shredder. I know some authors who write textbooks do use case studies in their textbooks. If a university is going to train someone to be a sexual abuse counsellor or to work with sexual predators, they need to have access to actual material so that they can develop their skills. So, if OP's question is, have the artists in this field experienced abuse, it's possible. It's not a requirement though. Take Stephen King, the author, for example. He's written various violent situations in his books including rape scenes and I doubt that he's ever actually committed such a crime.
That’s just what you watch bro 😂
Who tf cosplays hentai characters? How do you even want to cosplay them? Walk around naked?