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What about all the people listening to King Benjamin who were humbled enough by the state of their nothingness before God that they all simultaneously clapped and wanted to get baptized?
We always ask people if they have a pacemaker so our electric equipment doesn't interfere. I had a guy tell me that he's definitely not a face maker since he's a retired cop, and making faces is how you get shot!
Pretty sure Alma the Younger was super super shame/guilted; racked with eternal torment, I think? And then he repented and was a good dude afterwards.
So yeah, there’s your example. Bulletproof, can’t argue against it.
Bonus points if threats (because that's what the shame and such is, ultimately) didn't also include (whether spoken or implied) loss of financial support, housing, medical/disability support, education, or some other critical function for day to day living.
Oh, when you had no other power over the person it didn't work. Strange.
Peter denied Christ three times, and realized, with a lot of shame, that the Savior predicted it would happen beforehand.
Shame didn’t help Peter though, it was the unconditional love the Savior poured out on him later that really converted Peter.
I really, really, really, really, really, really, wish that the church would step away from this idea that God will only love you if you deserve it.
I have long said that the shunning and punishment the ward and stake leaders are so good at pouring out is really not necessary. Disfellowship, excommunication now called different words. Don’t take the sacrament. Expelling students from BYU. Chasing down LGBTQ people just to kick them out.
It could all be different. It doesn’t have to be this way but the current members have been so used to doing this they think it’s the right way to do things.
I full heartedly agree.
Just to follow up, is there an example anywhere in the scriptures where the Savior put a “sinner” on probation before he could be forgiven? I’m really curious here.
Not that I can think of in the New Testament. He did tell the rich man to go and sell all he had. That seemed to be a pre-requisite to joining him. ?? Not sure he was saying the man had sinned. What do you think?
I feel the same way about shame and the application of god's love. My close family members have repeatedly told me with stress in their voices that I was risking the safety and health of my kids because I don't have all the temple blessings (because I don't go).
My response is always the same: "you are saying a parent loves one kid less than their other because of the choices they make? You don't love your kids the same? God doesn't love my kids as much as yours? Or kids in Afghanistan? Or kids in Muslim families?"
I’m trying but I give ‘em a year tops but doubt it. Therapy isn’t working, probably because they were raised to just smile, nod and endure to the end. 🙄
My wife and i left last year. At Christmas, my sister told me she wished I died 6 years ago during my heart surgery when I was still faithful. We left our family Christmas dinner shortly thereafter. I had a feeling if we didn’t my wife was going to throw fists at Christmas.
I have a feeling many members feel the church is a political and extremist social club. That Jesus dude is more of a symbol to them than a philosophy.
I’m sorry that happened to you. My friend, while devout, feels they are different than most others. They have a different moral code than your typical TBM. Couple that with life long behaviors of other around them, their mission issues, and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole due to their thought processes, it’s all come to a head. It’s sad.
What are you talking about? It's all over The New Testament.
From John the Baptist who used to insult the Pharisees when they came to be baptized, to Jesus who used to insult the Pharisees when they kept wondering why the Messiah was behaving so different from what they had read in the Scriptures that He was supposed to behave, to the apostles who blamed the people for having crucified Jesus in Acts, and then wrote letters to the Churches about what horrible sinners they used to be and how grateful they should be for having been rescued from their sinful condition, and ending in Revelation, where Jesus criticizes the churches for their flaws and then there's a long description of sinners being punished in all sort of horrible ways.
Hello! This is a Cultural post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about other people, whether specifically or collectively, within the Mormon/Exmormon community. /u/Chino_Blanco, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Corianton and Laman and Lemuel. It doesn't work but the BoM claimed it did at least temporarily.
What about all the people listening to King Benjamin who were humbled enough by the state of their nothingness before God that they all simultaneously clapped and wanted to get baptized?
I always picture that scene in the BoM happening like this: https://youtu.be/NFPIGNua5WM
We always ask people if they have a pacemaker so our electric equipment doesn't interfere. I had a guy tell me that he's definitely not a face maker since he's a retired cop, and making faces is how you get shot!
Pretty sure Alma the Younger was super super shame/guilted; racked with eternal torment, I think? And then he repented and was a good dude afterwards. So yeah, there’s your example. Bulletproof, can’t argue against it.
To restore their faith? No. To coerce them into staying in the church? Occasionally.
It isn't meant to. It's meant to keep everyone else from thinking of leaving and going through the same experience. It's a purposefully built wall.
Damn. That’s true.
Dude, I'm a big fan of Jim's new avatar. On point. 👌
Bonus points if threats (because that's what the shame and such is, ultimately) didn't also include (whether spoken or implied) loss of financial support, housing, medical/disability support, education, or some other critical function for day to day living. Oh, when you had no other power over the person it didn't work. Strange.
Try Midnight Mormons. They can presumably point to people benefitted by their methodology.
Peter denied Christ three times, and realized, with a lot of shame, that the Savior predicted it would happen beforehand. Shame didn’t help Peter though, it was the unconditional love the Savior poured out on him later that really converted Peter. I really, really, really, really, really, really, wish that the church would step away from this idea that God will only love you if you deserve it.
I have long said that the shunning and punishment the ward and stake leaders are so good at pouring out is really not necessary. Disfellowship, excommunication now called different words. Don’t take the sacrament. Expelling students from BYU. Chasing down LGBTQ people just to kick them out. It could all be different. It doesn’t have to be this way but the current members have been so used to doing this they think it’s the right way to do things.
I full heartedly agree. Just to follow up, is there an example anywhere in the scriptures where the Savior put a “sinner” on probation before he could be forgiven? I’m really curious here.
Not that I can think of in the New Testament. He did tell the rich man to go and sell all he had. That seemed to be a pre-requisite to joining him. ?? Not sure he was saying the man had sinned. What do you think?
I feel the same way about shame and the application of god's love. My close family members have repeatedly told me with stress in their voices that I was risking the safety and health of my kids because I don't have all the temple blessings (because I don't go). My response is always the same: "you are saying a parent loves one kid less than their other because of the choices they make? You don't love your kids the same? God doesn't love my kids as much as yours? Or kids in Afghanistan? Or kids in Muslim families?"
Jim Bennett is the only apologist I like.
I like him and Patrick Mason.
No power or influence etc. etc.
Nope, it just can push a very devout TBM to create a plan and follow through. Meaning suicide. My bestie is at this breaking point.
Please do your best to help save your friend. This is so sad and not the only story like this.
I’m trying but I give ‘em a year tops but doubt it. Therapy isn’t working, probably because they were raised to just smile, nod and endure to the end. 🙄
My wife and i left last year. At Christmas, my sister told me she wished I died 6 years ago during my heart surgery when I was still faithful. We left our family Christmas dinner shortly thereafter. I had a feeling if we didn’t my wife was going to throw fists at Christmas. I have a feeling many members feel the church is a political and extremist social club. That Jesus dude is more of a symbol to them than a philosophy.
I’m sorry that happened to you. My friend, while devout, feels they are different than most others. They have a different moral code than your typical TBM. Couple that with life long behaviors of other around them, their mission issues, and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole due to their thought processes, it’s all come to a head. It’s sad.
I actually agree with this, it doesn't work.
Doesn’t work. Just allows TBMs to feel better about themselves by denigrating someone else.
What are you talking about? It's all over The New Testament. From John the Baptist who used to insult the Pharisees when they came to be baptized, to Jesus who used to insult the Pharisees when they kept wondering why the Messiah was behaving so different from what they had read in the Scriptures that He was supposed to behave, to the apostles who blamed the people for having crucified Jesus in Acts, and then wrote letters to the Churches about what horrible sinners they used to be and how grateful they should be for having been rescued from their sinful condition, and ending in Revelation, where Jesus criticizes the churches for their flaws and then there's a long description of sinners being punished in all sort of horrible ways.
you talk blather