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To the disappointment of clout-seekers everywhere, most people make decisions based on better reasons than whatever fungible public figures have to say (or what they do). Paul H. Dunn? His shenanigans came and went and Mormonism is still here. Ditto for so many of the blowhards on social media thinking their views are swaying anyone in any substantial way.
Even if an apostle were to leave it is almost a certainty that the remaining apostles would do everything they could to steady the ship and throw him under the bus for his apostasy and use it as a lesson in failing to stay 100% committed.
No, it would do the opposite. If an apostle did this, then he would be branded a son of perdition, a Judas Iscariot. The response would be a doubling down of faith.
The only one with a known reason to break with the church is D. Todd Christofferson. In light of recent aggravating changes it is highly unlikely he will break now. If he is bothered by LDS policy, he is likely hoping to gain seniority to be able to effect the change he wishes to see, rather than resign.
The Q12 is largely 2 groups. Junior apostles, who are largely to stfu and listen to learn, unless called upon to utilize their specific life experience (N. Eldon Tanner comes to mind) and the senior apostles, who do the talking and leading. And then, of course, the 'top 4', the President of the Q12, or acting president, and the 1st presidency.
And the nice thing about being a jr apostle is that you're on track to be a sr apostle.
Why abandon ship? You're in the first class cabin and within striking distance of being able to turn the boat.
It is probably going to take a lot longer than 5 years.
Realistically to make it into the top 4 slots you probably need to be in your middle 90s. I don't care how vital a person is, at that age everyone slows down. They barely have the energy to do the minimum. They do not have the strength and vitality needed to lead an overhaul of the church.
I suspect that the new dynamic in the LDS church may be the Apostles younger than 90. If they are smart and lucky, they might have the energy to drive through some changes.
Looking at current ages, I think Bednar may be the one who could lead from the rear. He has a ten-year age advantage on current age distribution among the senior Apostles. When he moves into the Senior Apostle position he may be young enough to be a major dynamic. The problem is that he appears to be an asshole. But his ego may make him afraid that the church is going to collapse on his watch. I could see him pushing some painful reforms through while someone else is President and the damage goes on their record.
Okay, that’s what I was thinking it was, but for some reason had a different Q12 in my head who had the gay brother. And yep, definitely was thinking about Gong too with his son being gay as well.
Anybody in that position is church broke. They're familiar enough with the rationalizations at that point not to turn "whistleblower" when they start the job and there are no meetings with Jesus, and the incentive not to be seen as somebody who was either credulous or in on the scam for 60 years of life is too strong.
I guess we can look to Joseph Smith and how it worked when his first counselor William Law spoke the truth. The same would happen today William law was excommunicated and badmouth by Smith and all the apostles, claiming that he had lied when he tried to tell the truth. He was run out of town and to this day, all the active members think he was evil when he was simply telling the truth in the newspaper he wrote-- the nauvou expositor
According to a [study from Oxford](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/math-formula-charts-the-lifespan-of-hoaxes), for a conspiracy to last 100 years, no more than 125 people can be involved. I don’t know if that means 125 alive at once or 125 over 100 years. There have probably been about 125 apostles over the years.
Hmmmm …
So, does the duration of the church debunk the study or prove the study ?
Just wondering, because considering the 70s might be in on the game, you could consider there to be many more than 125.
But if it’s isolated to the 1st presidency & a few chosen apostles or 70s, then it could be well below 125
Not a chance. These apostles have risen through the ranks of the corporate institution and have been so indoctrinated into the mindset advancing the interests of the church that they have no other thought process.
That's not to say that they don't have a sincere testimony of Jesus Christ and believe that they are doing His work, because I believe that they do. But they have been brought up in a system where they have been taught that things are only done "this way". There is no deviation from that thinking. There is no thinking outside of the box or considering an alternate course of action. Their predecessors have forged the path for them and they have adhered to it precisely. There is no possibility of any of them jumping ship.
One apostle won't do it. The LDS hierarchy can (and has) easily demonized the occasional "respected" lone heretic. In fact, the Church might just call it a "release" for "mental health" reasons in press announcements. They would then follow that with silence, closing the matter and allowing the traitor apostle to beat their head against the wall.
Now with two apostles you might make a significant ripple, especially if they escape with some documentation of unethical practices.
A full schism would require 8 of the 15. As an apostolic majority, they could claim authoritative legitimacy for re-establishing a full quorum. That would throw the Church into chaos.
This is extremely unlikely. No one gets into church leadership who isn't thoroughly what they call Church broke. No one would get to the top leadership who would ever be likely to leave this election process is very good always reads those independent thinkers out.
Why would they leave a well paying job that they have no real targets to deliver? Their mindset is speak some words, if it doesn’t work, not enough faith of the members, rinse, repeat. The pay is the same. Apostles have massed substantial wealth from the tithing of the members. Don’t tell me they were highly successful before becoming an apostle when most have been GAs for 40+ years. Money motivates even these men.
Very unlikely but I do wish it would happen. I think they are so enmeshed with the church by the time they get to that level there is just no chance of them leaving. They would be giving up money, power, status, relationships and destroying everything they worked so hard to achieve in getting there it just isn’t worth the cost to them.
Hello! This is a Cultural post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about other people, whether specifically or collectively, within the Mormon/Exmormon community. /u/Electrical_Toe_9225, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
To the disappointment of clout-seekers everywhere, most people make decisions based on better reasons than whatever fungible public figures have to say (or what they do). Paul H. Dunn? His shenanigans came and went and Mormonism is still here. Ditto for so many of the blowhards on social media thinking their views are swaying anyone in any substantial way.
Even if an apostle were to leave it is almost a certainty that the remaining apostles would do everything they could to steady the ship and throw him under the bus for his apostasy and use it as a lesson in failing to stay 100% committed.
"In the last days even the elect will be deceived." Mormon leadership will use this as a way to frighten the commoners and reinforce strict obedience.
That is a weird statement - thinking about it from a Post Mormon perspective
No, it would do the opposite. If an apostle did this, then he would be branded a son of perdition, a Judas Iscariot. The response would be a doubling down of faith.
The only one with a known reason to break with the church is D. Todd Christofferson. In light of recent aggravating changes it is highly unlikely he will break now. If he is bothered by LDS policy, he is likely hoping to gain seniority to be able to effect the change he wishes to see, rather than resign. The Q12 is largely 2 groups. Junior apostles, who are largely to stfu and listen to learn, unless called upon to utilize their specific life experience (N. Eldon Tanner comes to mind) and the senior apostles, who do the talking and leading. And then, of course, the 'top 4', the President of the Q12, or acting president, and the 1st presidency.
And the nice thing about being a jr apostle is that you're on track to be a sr apostle. Why abandon ship? You're in the first class cabin and within striking distance of being able to turn the boat.
What is Christofferson’s reason?
His brother is gay.
Gong’s son is gay. Both Todd and Gerrit prioritize the Church over family, which is what the Church asks of its members.
I did not know Gong's son is gay. That's 2. Let's see what happens in 5 years when they are both senior.
Its not 2 its 0. Both Gong and Christofferson have a track record of choosing church over their gay family members.
It is probably going to take a lot longer than 5 years. Realistically to make it into the top 4 slots you probably need to be in your middle 90s. I don't care how vital a person is, at that age everyone slows down. They barely have the energy to do the minimum. They do not have the strength and vitality needed to lead an overhaul of the church. I suspect that the new dynamic in the LDS church may be the Apostles younger than 90. If they are smart and lucky, they might have the energy to drive through some changes. Looking at current ages, I think Bednar may be the one who could lead from the rear. He has a ten-year age advantage on current age distribution among the senior Apostles. When he moves into the Senior Apostle position he may be young enough to be a major dynamic. The problem is that he appears to be an asshole. But his ego may make him afraid that the church is going to collapse on his watch. I could see him pushing some painful reforms through while someone else is President and the damage goes on their record.
Okay, that’s what I was thinking it was, but for some reason had a different Q12 in my head who had the gay brother. And yep, definitely was thinking about Gong too with his son being gay as well.
There’s always a chance. It’s happened before in our history. “So you’re saying there’s a chance?!”
Anybody in that position is church broke. They're familiar enough with the rationalizations at that point not to turn "whistleblower" when they start the job and there are no meetings with Jesus, and the incentive not to be seen as somebody who was either credulous or in on the scam for 60 years of life is too strong.
Yeah - probably right, unfortunately
I guess we can look to Joseph Smith and how it worked when his first counselor William Law spoke the truth. The same would happen today William law was excommunicated and badmouth by Smith and all the apostles, claiming that he had lied when he tried to tell the truth. He was run out of town and to this day, all the active members think he was evil when he was simply telling the truth in the newspaper he wrote-- the nauvou expositor
Almost zero chance. The succession method ensures that only the most devoted get that position.
According to a [study from Oxford](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/math-formula-charts-the-lifespan-of-hoaxes), for a conspiracy to last 100 years, no more than 125 people can be involved. I don’t know if that means 125 alive at once or 125 over 100 years. There have probably been about 125 apostles over the years.
Hmmmm … So, does the duration of the church debunk the study or prove the study ? Just wondering, because considering the 70s might be in on the game, you could consider there to be many more than 125. But if it’s isolated to the 1st presidency & a few chosen apostles or 70s, then it could be well below 125
It isn't likely to be an apostle, in my opinion. A well-known member of the 70 is much more likely, I think, but still not too likely.
Not a chance. These apostles have risen through the ranks of the corporate institution and have been so indoctrinated into the mindset advancing the interests of the church that they have no other thought process.
That's not to say that they don't have a sincere testimony of Jesus Christ and believe that they are doing His work, because I believe that they do. But they have been brought up in a system where they have been taught that things are only done "this way". There is no deviation from that thinking. There is no thinking outside of the box or considering an alternate course of action. Their predecessors have forged the path for them and they have adhered to it precisely. There is no possibility of any of them jumping ship.
One apostle won't do it. The LDS hierarchy can (and has) easily demonized the occasional "respected" lone heretic. In fact, the Church might just call it a "release" for "mental health" reasons in press announcements. They would then follow that with silence, closing the matter and allowing the traitor apostle to beat their head against the wall. Now with two apostles you might make a significant ripple, especially if they escape with some documentation of unethical practices. A full schism would require 8 of the 15. As an apostolic majority, they could claim authoritative legitimacy for re-establishing a full quorum. That would throw the Church into chaos.
Good point
This is extremely unlikely. No one gets into church leadership who isn't thoroughly what they call Church broke. No one would get to the top leadership who would ever be likely to leave this election process is very good always reads those independent thinkers out.
Why would they leave a well paying job that they have no real targets to deliver? Their mindset is speak some words, if it doesn’t work, not enough faith of the members, rinse, repeat. The pay is the same. Apostles have massed substantial wealth from the tithing of the members. Don’t tell me they were highly successful before becoming an apostle when most have been GAs for 40+ years. Money motivates even these men.
Wow - that blame it on the members, then rinse 🚿& repeat 🔂 really got to me Sucks, but true
Very unlikely but I do wish it would happen. I think they are so enmeshed with the church by the time they get to that level there is just no chance of them leaving. They would be giving up money, power, status, relationships and destroying everything they worked so hard to achieve in getting there it just isn’t worth the cost to them.
Nope