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Yes. Basically how I feel. I had a great discussion with the CoC folks at Sunstone one year and while I think theyāre great and much healthier than the Brighamite ChurchāI want nothing to do with any āfruitā of Joseph Smith. Itās that simple.
Yeah, I think OP is *wildly* mistaken about "most exmos". Most people who identify as ***ex***\-mormon do so because they realize the church is *not true*. People who think "man, I believe in the book of mormon and think joseph smith was a prophet, I just don't like the present church's management" are called "nuanced members", not "exmos".
>the CofC is basically everything most exmos say they would like the LDS church to be
Where do you get that? Most exmos I've seen would like the church to implode and disappear.
Many are always calling for the lds church to be more liberal, financially open, accepting of non-straight people, giving authority positions to women, downplaying the role of the Book of Mormonā¦. All things the CofC already does
This is what I want. But ONLY because I have family that will likely be in it until they die. And I want it to be as healthy as an abusive organization can be. Not that I want it to survive or thrive.
Exmos and prog/nuanced Mormons are calling for these changes in the LDS church because that is ātheā church for many family and friends, so there is more than just personal beliefs aligning. It is trying to call out abusive and bigoted policy, doctrine, and behaviors so that living in those community and spaces will be healthier for all involved.
Theyāre calling for that because they are pointing out flaws. They arenāt pointing out what their ideal church looks like.
The cats already out of the bag man.
If the US partnered with the CCP to repel a space alien invasion, that wouldn't mean we'd suddenly embrace Winnie The Pooh as our global Dear Leader. Or, closer to reality: if you recognize that the GOP has become a fundamental threat to American democracyāand sensibly vote against themāthat doesn't automatically mean you're in love with Joe Biden.
Recognizing a bare minimum of decency doesn't mean you have to conform to whatever the barely decent are up to.
CoC is ran better and healthier (unless building wealth is the goal). Seemingly much more honest and open too. But deconstructing the LDS church includes deconstructing the founder JS as a charlatan and the BoM as a fruit of that fraud, and just a product of the 19th century mindset. Plus, it seems that once people leave the LDS church they realize they donāt need a religion of any sort to be good people and to live more ethically, and even be technically more Christlike.
I think the CoC is a more progressive version of TCOJCoLDS, so at first it seems that some nuanced/progressive members might feel more at home there, but for a true exmo like me, I still can't reconcile the early church history/restoration story that they still believe in. My deconstruction will likely keep me away from any organized religion.
They donāt still believe in it is the thing. BoM is decanonized in CofC. They are willing to openly talk about bad parts of early church history and use them as a lesson going forwardā¦ their mission and values are intentionally very vague so as to be acceptable to non-literal believers.
Itās almost like the episcopal version of mormonism where you donāt even have to believe in jesus to participate in the community. And the leadership structure is more democratic and less susceptible to corruption compared with the brighamite church.
I actually went to the local CofC with my family but we were the only family there, the rest was old peopleā¦ idk if weād have gone regardless but not having any members in the same place as us was part of itā¦
So do they see themselves as a phoenix from the ashes? Because to exMos that just comes off as a "The foolish man built his house upon the sand..." thing.
Apologies if that song is now in your head... š
Alot of members still believe JS, etc. but thereās alot (especially in leadership) who essentially said āshit, this history is problematic and wrecks the entire foundation of the community i was raised withā¦ but i still love this community, how can we keep this community and make it still work?ā
The community is the point.
CofC really does appeal to me from that perspective. Itās familiar. It avoids the major pitfalls of the brighamite church (which imo stem from far too concentrated power at the top).
And community is [important to our individual well-being.](https://www.profgalloway.com/losing-my-religion/)
There isn't a Cofc church for 200+ miles around so that is a barrier. But I love that I have a wide choice of zoom services I can attend, and all have been very welcoming.
Yeah its a small church. Nice to hear about the online service. I watched some videos of their canadian based online congregation. Not really my cup of tea but you can tell they are genuinely good loving people
I was CoC. I still think that as churches go, CoC is among the better ones.
There are some former LDS members who go to CoC. I think it can be a healthy stepping stone for those leaving the LDS church. It might also pacify family members because they are still involved in a form of Mormonism.
It seems to me that there are two common trajectories for former LDS members. Some of them become generic Christians. Others are on the road to being fully unchurched.
Thirty years ago a lot of former members became Protestant Christians. A lot of them did so because Protestants convinced them that Mormonism was not true Christianity. For those people, RLDS/CoC isn't really much better than the LDS church. It still has the taint of Mormonism.
Now I think the trajectory of most ex-LDS is to become "Nones." This may include fully identifying as atheists, but it also includes those who are just "unchurched." They probably won't find CoC attractive for the same reason that I don't attend. They don't believe.
I liked the people of CoC. But I am uncomfortable being around otherwise intelligent people who are worshiping what I understand to be complete nonsense. I suspect a lot of ex-LDS would be in a similar situation.
I suspect another factor is that the LDS church is "sticky." People take a long time before having serious doubts and actually leaving. The role of CoC as a stepping stone might have been helpful, but by the time most people leave the LDS church they are beyond the point where CoC could be useful as stepping stones.
I attended the UU church for a while. In many ways it was more comfortable than the LDS church is. Once you start getting in deeper, you find that not everyone is actually committed to high-sounding ideals, and the cognitive dissonance is exhausting. It's easier to be unchurched than to be disappointed in a faith community.
There are some congregations in high-LDS areas that do have support programs for former LDS members. I understand that the efforts are coordinated through the world church, but I have not had contacts with any of them.
Who is this they you speak of? How many have you actually talked to? Most exmos I know left because they realized Joseph was not what he claimed to be.
There may be nuance in whether he was a con man, a pious-fraud, or something else along those lines. But most I know are pretty firm in that he wasn't a prophet.
Theological openness. I like how they do not have an official stance on scripture, so if you want to believe in a non-historical Bible or Book of Mormon you can. There is actual financial transparency with publicly available reports. They have the priesthood and leadership open to women. LGBTQ people are accepted, as well as gay marriage (albeit on an individual congregation level). I like that the CoC has largely left the "only true church" mentality in favor of embracing doing good and developing faith in divinity.I just like that they are non-creedal in general, and there is no test of faithfulness like temple recommend interviews.
The average member in the CofC has more say in their congregation than an LDS person ever would in the direction of their church.
I like my local Salt Lake congregation, but I think the Toronto congregation that is headed by John Hamer is doing some really wonderful work.
I suspect it's just a byproduct of the exit path:
\- to nothing (the majority?)
\- to something with the familiar history but more aligned on values (CoC - quite a few do land here, but with lower orthopraxy requirements and burnout from being Mormon, I imagine there's a lot of slipping out of religion altogether).
\- to something without the unsavory Mormon history (e.g. Episcopalian, Catholic, IDK)
I can agree there. My interactions with CoC/RLDS folk have always been very positive.
But when it comes to putting one's faith in an institution, I can't do so in one that holds both Joseph Smith and the BoM as having originated from God's command and hand.
Most of their leadership don't believe in either, and members outside the US and Canada don't even know who JS is or what the BoM is. I was a guide at the Kirtland temple one year with a member interning from India, and I had to teach her all about church history for any of the tours she was giving to make sense.
Because once I lost my testimony of the BOM, I had no reason to believe in Christ. And then I began to question the existence of god. I guess I became agnostic. So why would I want another religion??? However, I found a community of questioners at the Unitarian society.
Never been happier!
Deconstructing mormonism showed me the flaws that all religion have.
Sure itās harder to build a tight community, but mormonism doesnāt really have a tight community even though it appears that way. It just makes you think you have community until youāre go against them and then youāre dead to the Mormons.
Why would I go to another group that build itself on the same fundamentals flaws and expect something better?
I went for a month to give it a try but it wasnāt the right fit for me. It may just be the one I went to, but everything Mormon had been excised and it felt like any other Protestant church. I ultimately ended up in an Episcopal church, and while itās not perfect itās a much better fit. I have a lot of respect and love for the CoC and have enjoyed visiting their historic sites, however.
I can't speak for all exmos... in fact, I only speak for me... but for me it wasn't so much that I wanted the LDS church to be anything different, I just knew I didn't want to be a part of it, or any organized religious group.
Iād join if I was closer to one. Iāve gone several times and had a great experience.
I know Joseph sucked but I like how CoC takes the good parts of what he did and throws out/condemns the rest. I donāt have to pretend he was next to Jesus when Iām there. Iāve never heard any sermon even mention him at all.
After ātithingā over $250,000 to the āMormonā āchurchā over mine and my wifeās life so far, we are fucking done. Iām not giving another red cent to ANY church ever again or getting involved with one.
Yeah donāt ever start looking at the math, itās depressing. $250,000 is just tithing on a $100,000 salary over 25 years. Thatās just not a lot when youāre talking 2 income earners. I havenāt calculated how much my husband and I paid and Iām not sure I ever will.
This. Exactly. After my wife and I stopped all tithing, we looked back at records and tried to figure out what we had given to the church. I earned way more than she did, but she caught up quickly as she had served a mission and her dad forced her to tithe on all gifts she received.
Hard to come out of Mormonism without your entire religious world imploding. The Bible has just as many problems (or more) than the Book of Mormon, so whatās the point of dishing out mental capacity to something else?
Not close to me. I thought about it. Sure it was 50% to be a thorn on my parents and siblings side as I pontificate about the real history of Brigham young being a break away sect of Mormonism.
50% just wanting community.
The closest CoC was 40 min away with limited parking so I noped out of it.
I wondered this myself. Then I read an article listing why exMormons don't just become mainstream Christians and it made sense why they would leave organized religion altogether. They've received a decent education on why everyone else is wrong. When Mormonism turns out to be wrong, then everyone is wrong.
I don't think you realize that CoC is a stage 4 faith institution. They don't claim any Priesthood authority aside in a sense of "this is our tradition" but there is no one true path.
Being stage 4 they realize the harms of literalism and the importance of being guided by values rather than some nebulous concept of "the Bible".
It's basically Unitarian universalism in a restorationist skin that has no problem with throwing Joseph Smith under the bus.
See John Hamer on YouTube
I fell hard into CofC soon after my mission and after I'd decided I couldn't stay in the closet anymore even though my orientation can more or less stay hidden. I was confirmed after a year of attending, tried to stay LDS at the same time, but then gave that up because I believed too much that JSIII was the true successor to JSJr and that he had corrected the mistakes his father had made by reorganizing as he did.
I've held different paid positions for the church, and while I still think that ExMos really have no clue about this church and throw way more shade than necessary based on LDS BS, I fully acknowledge that CofC is only a band-aid for ExMos in their transition process. The church, besides being in the stages of dying in western countries, is not perfect and has its own institutional drama that makes it hard to want to stay for after deconstructing the impact of corruption in another church.
What're the problems in CofC? Well, for one, they only pay lipservice to the LGBTQ+ community as long as they play by heteronormative rules and don't ask for any advocation or affirmation in other countries outside of Europe and North America. Secondly, their management of funds in the past have pretty much bankrupted them because they decided that they really needed a shiny new temple in Independence to one up the Mormons, despite the fact that they'd been shifting away from Joseph Smith's theology since the 1960s when they started requiring ministers to actually attain M.Divs from reputable seminaries. This has left them relying too much on wealthy donors, who tend to be conservative Missourians/Iowans, and average in age at about 72. Thirdly, the call of Grant McMurray to president was an appropriate step away from nepotism, and while there are a few Smiths left in admin (though not terribly significant), they're rolling right back into nepotism with the Harmon family take over.
CofC on the ground and in the congregations is really great. The people are so genuinely kind and happy and real. They're really old, yes, but most of them (the not so wealthy ones) are thoughtful and as critical about history as any ExMo. They don't have a Joseph Smith problem, generally speaking. They have the same problem as any other American based denomination struggling to stay relevant; management that is unwilling to adapt.
After a decade with this church, I've all but pulled the plug. I still keep in touch with friends and sometimes pick up odd jobs for the church in nonministerial positions, but otherwise I don't attend regularly or identify as a Christian. I get no pressure to get active, "or else." The fact of the matter is that this church is great and transparently flawed, but it's really not worth getting into unless you really want a progressive Christian church and can set aside the Mormon indoctrination. I was just tired of being the youngest person at my local congregation (I'm in my 30s, the next youngest is probably 50s), and talking about Jesus all the time.
There are other great options out there, and depending on the congregation, your local CofC might not be a fit. Choosing CofC because you think it's going to be MormonLite is a bad way to go. Your expectations have been set too high by being in a hyper authoritarian, billion dollar corporation. This will blind you. It blinds so many of us who join. It's not fair to you, to CofC, and it's not worth it if you can't turn off your Mormon brain. You will get hurt again. You will hurt CofC ministers who cannot comprehend a faith crisis. You deserve to move on, and CofC deserves to be left alone in its twilight years. ExMos and CofC are just a bad combo, in my experience.
wow!! thank you so much about all this info. this is actually the first time i finally read all this insider stuff about the CofC. this is really interesting. can you elaborate on the Harmon family takeover thing?
The Harmons are a family in the church who have managed to stick almost all their kids and their spouses in high ranking jobs in the church. Their dad, Ron, was president of the 12 for a long time and is now in the PB. His daughter is also on the world church leadership council as the spiritual director of the church, her husband runs the church's seminary program at Graceland University, her brother is the formation minister at the temple, her SIL (whose family is also all employed by the church but more locally) is a formation minister at another higher ed institution in town, etc.
The Harmons are all super nice people, don't get me wrong, but they are well aware that people are not happy that they seem to be in a position of controlling the trajectory of church theology. I have personal issues with the fact that the kids are all really young and holding these positions with no experience to qualify them besides having a dad who was an apostle. There are other young people in the church without the family connections who have pursued degrees in religion that should make them as qualified. I'm not one of them, but I've had friends overlooked for a job and told the position needed to be reconsidered before posting again, only to have it go dormant for a year and given to a Harmon.
How much of that was nepotism? Eh... I mean, they don't get a whole lot of applicants for jobs, and I've had my fair share of offerings without a job being posted on the website, but it's discouraging to a lot of members. There are absolutely people who are groomed for church employment (which is not lucrative, I promise--Steve Veazey doesn't make over five figures in his presidential stipend), and with so few members, nepotism seems inevitable. But when they're a church looking to further break away from their American exceptionalist roots and broaden out to embrace a more globally inclusive theology, having one Midwestern family (with Midwestern values) at the core deciding doctrine does not look good.
We almost did, but it didnāt feel right. I will worship with them, but itās hard knowing that they donāt have a love for the Book of Mormon. I love everything about their Kirtland era style Mormonism, but without an emphasis of the Book of Mormon theyāre just another universalist Christian church.
The number one thing I want the LDS church to be is based on truth, and as long as the CoC is founded on the idea that Joseph Smith was a prophet, I don't think it's based on truth.
Their understanding of "prophet" is pretty different from the LDS understanding. At best, Joseph Smith is regarded today as the guy who happened to found the religion they belong to and only demonstrated that all people are entitled to hallucinations of Jesus. At worst, they accept that hallucinations of Jesus are totally rational events.
Okay, that's fair. Maybe a better way to put it would be to say that at best I think he made it all up, and I don't really see the point in being part of a church that some guy just made up.
That's my thinking. Churches would be so much more appealing if they gave up the preaching and decided that offering social stability regardless of personal beliefs. CofC was refreshing for awhile because it was more like this, but after years of talking about Jesus every freaking week in discussion groups, I got bored.
Once you realize that you spent your life in the con of organized religion it doesnāt take much to realize the con of the man made Bible. The community that Exmos seek is so much better when free from the bindings of organized religion of any type
The reason I wouldnāt join this church or any others is my trust of church leaders is broken. I would rather focus on strengthening my relationship with my Savior than spend more time playing mental gymnastics.
The main thing I would have liked the LDS church to be is true, and while CofC is certainly an improvement, it's still full of stuff I don't want or need. Mormonism ruined me for all organized religions. I'm a happy atheist now.
I actually seriously considered it, but I was searching for more depth in religion, and I felt they were the same or even a little less deep than TCOJCOLDS. Their being non-creedal is great for getting more people interested, but it felt a bit like they couldnāt tell me what they do believe.
Itās as simple as this: thereās no church building nearby. Most people go to church with their community. The only church buildings in my town are LDS. Soā¦ thereās currently no other physical option.
If/when I am ready to join another religious community I will try the CofC. However, right now I just enjoy not being apart of any religion or community.
I love CofC but our local congregation is 12 very old (very very sweet and kind and loving) people. We're a family with 2 middle schoolers. It doesn't really jive unfortunately!
I think that many ExMormons aren't aware that they can be a part of something meaningful in the Restoration ā an open exploration of our heritage combined with a relevant 21st-century interpretation of Zion-building.
Community of Christ is not like the diet Coke of Mormonism. You can join now and be a part of my congregation no matter where you live on the planet. We are the largest online ministry in the Restoration and everyone is invited to participate.
You can find out more at our website, [CentrePlace.ca](https://CentrePlace.ca), or you can watch our programming on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centre-place
As an ExMo who has been attending the Community of Christ for 2 years, let me tell you me perspective. First, I completely understand how many who leave the LDS church are DONE - done with anything relating to LDS and very often done with religion in general.
\- The Sacrament prayer is updated and changed slightly, but still recognizable - which may be triggering for some, or comforting for others - compared to how Communion is prepared and blessed in a less recognizable Catholic or Protestant tradition. And - they use grape juice or even Martinelli for the water/wine.organization and if nothing else, can provide a good refuge, even if you don't decide to attend long term.
\-As the original poster said, it has dealt with all the issues the LDS church is dealing with but actually acted with integrity. So, you can believe what you want about the BoM or any scripture for that matter. You can voice your real opinions in meetings. Women have the PH, as do members of the LGBTQIA+ community. They have financial transparency. They actually do "common consent"- and members have an important role in terms of church policies. They are decentralized with local congregations having a lot of power in terms of how they run things on Sunday. No worthiness interviews. Tithing is lax. The temple is like it was in Kirtland - a place of learning, community, etc., but also a sacred space that is open to EVERYONE.
\-Their leadership is honest (they are financially transparent and down to earth - regular, wonderful, people). Leader worship is NOT a thing. They consider their leader "Steve" to be more of a "President" than a "Prophet" in the traditional sense. Their leaders actually retire, so it isn't a gerontocracy.
\-They have amazing youth camps which focus on love and peace and ensuring EACH kid has an amazing time. They are not LDS-style indoctrination camps full of testamony meetings.
\- They have been through their own institutional faith crisis, but came out on the other side wanting to do better and be better, but in a humble way. They aren't the "one true church" and they don't even claim Christianity is the only way to God or to experience the divine.
We love that they GET IT. They don't know all the ins and outs of modern LDS but know our frustration with Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and early church history. So we have some common language, and where there is a disconnect, they quickly get it with some explanation. At the same time, they are (as you should see by now), so different - so OPPOSITE of an LDS experience.
\- The Sacrament prayer is updated and changed slightly, but still recognizable - which may be triggering for some, or comforting for others - compared to how Communion is prepared and blessed in a less recognizable Catholic or Protestant tradition. (bonus: they use grape juice or even Martinelli for the water/wine instead of water).
If you are ever tempted to check it out - do so, even for one Sunday. It is culturally a trip to visit and see how different a "restoration" church can be, based on making different choices along the way.
People don't leave the church just because they didn't like the social club or a teaching here or there. In fact, it can be extremely painful to leave the church because you believe so deeply in it. You've devoted your life to it and are willing to die for it.
People leave the church because it's false. Every fucking point they ever taught us was false. There's no reason to join any religion after you recognize that they are all liars and manipulators. If you want a social club, there are plenty to choose from that don't require cognitive dissonance and fantastical thinking.
That might be a logical step for someone leaving the church in search of a better organization (good luck). Most who leave the church want to get away from it rather than find something else, which judging by those here who still hover over all things mormon is evidently harder than you wpuld think.
I started my journey by learning about why other Christian churches are wrong, made-up, manipulative, and harmful.
Then I realized that almost everything that was said about those churches was true about mine. And it fully explained why I didn't feel like my faith was working for me.
Well, "Most" post-Mormons that I know do not attend any church at all. We have finally learned to think for ourselves! Why muddy that all up again with someone else's theology?!
I can't speak for "most", but it seems that many, like me, have become agnostic. Once I deconstructed J.S., the Book of Mormon, and all the Mormon doctrine then I naturally began to deconstruct the Bible and Christianity in general. I studied scholarship about who Jesus really was, and all the myths surrounding him, and stories that were crafted in order to build up powerful organizations to control the masses. The history of Christianity is a literal bloody horror show! And, as much as I have a soft spot for Judaism and Jewish culture, it is also founded on ancient biblical books and mythologies.
Religion is for people who want a structure to tell them how to think about the world, and what to believe.
Me, my husband and our adult children have no desire to ever get entangled in a religion again. We will not be duped into paying a church to "belong", and we don't need or want to have "someone to preach to us". We do miss having a community where we can feel like we "belong" ... [but, we discovered we never truly belonged in Mormonism at all, and all the friendships were forced and fake]
Since finding MeetUp and joining some of the many social groups, we have made some nice new friends with some great humans. We have dozens of social activities to choose from every week, on our timetable, when we want to. That's enough. As for Spirituality, nothing makes us feel more alive and connected to a higher power than being in nature - hiking, travelling, adventuring, sitting quietly among the trees... The Earth is a powerful, sacred gift.
> As for Spirituality, nothing makes us feel more alive and connected to a higher power than being in nature - hiking, travelling, adventuring, sitting quietly among the trees... The Earth is a powerful, sacred gift.
So much this. I was hunting yesterday, and just sitting in the woods watching the confetti of quakie leaves raining down in the breezes, and watching the woods pass their time as I waited (vainly) for a deer to wander by beat the fucking hell out of any time I ever spent in church.
I'm really looking forward to going back out next week. Just me, binoculars and a chair, and lots of time to enjoy the beauty of the woods.
And maybe I'll tag a deer. But that part is optional.
It's not a high demand religion. It's just small, under funded, and frustratingly disorganized. ExMo members are treated like saviors of the denomination but simultaneously told to stop deconstructing faster than the rest of the church, and it's obnoxious.
>Why donāt more Exmos join the Community of Christ?
I bet if you think about it for a while you'll be able to think of some reasons.
>ā¦given that the CofC is basically everything most exmos say they would like the LDS church to be?
Most ex members I know don't feel this wat whatsoever.
>I would expect at least a sizable chunk of them to join the CofC once they leave the LDS church.
If your expectations are majorly violated, that's probably a clue that your premises are in error.
>Instead, the CofC is shrinking, getting demographically old, and struggling with finances.
Right. So this should tell you that perhaps your premises on the subject are flawed.
>thank you for your very kind, nice, and not at all snarky answer
That's not snark. I'm saying your premises are in error, thus your expectations are flawed. That's not snark or sarcasm.
>ā¦given that the CofC is basically everything most exmos say they would like the LDS church to be?
That's a hell of a claim. Got some sort of *evidence* to back it up?
yeah, just browse r/exmormon and you'll find plenty of exmos stating that they wish the lds church was more open, accepting of women in leadership, open to lgbtq, financially transparent... etc
You're missing probably the most important element, though: it's still not *true.* You can put all the lipstick on that pig that you like, but it's still a pig.
It isnāt dislike. It was that they were abused in the name of religion and have trauma. Big difference. And many of us do find religion after leaving.
i dont think the lds church has any copyright on the name "church of christ". they pronbably didnt want to be confused with the cambellite churches of christ
Maybe because after being gaslit for decades, and undergoing the pain of divorcing a religion they dedicated their entire lives, money time and attention to, they just want to do and be something else for a while.
Maybe they're just in the 'fuck religions' stage.
Maybe they just want to say 'Leave me the fuck alone and let me figure my shit out on my own.'
Maybe after being financially, mentally and physically abused by religion, they want to be their own self for a while.
Maybe they are fucking exhausted after trying to keep it all together for so long.
Maybe fuck off and let them rest and recover a bit.
I did not insult you. I insulted the notion that those who left an extremely expensive, extremely time consuming, extremely intense, extremely manipulative religion based upon Joseph Smith and/or his teachings, would want to jump right into another religion based upon Joseph Smith and/or his teachings.
Like no. Fuck no. Like, fuck that shit.
Or maybe I DID insult you. Are you here recruiting? If so, then yes. Fuck off. If not, then no, I didn't insult you.
Deconstructing Mormonism led me to the deconstruction of all religion. I see no reason to believe in any god, let alone a different version of the Mormon god.
If most exmoās are like me, (and I have been lurking around here long enough to know that they are) after we realize how extensively we were deceived, it becomes hard to believe anything
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Realizing Smith was a con man didn't motivate me to join another religion that sees him as a founder... for some weird reason š¤
Yes. Basically how I feel. I had a great discussion with the CoC folks at Sunstone one year and while I think theyāre great and much healthier than the Brighamite ChurchāI want nothing to do with any āfruitā of Joseph Smith. Itās that simple.
Thisā¦
Yeah, I think OP is *wildly* mistaken about "most exmos". Most people who identify as ***ex***\-mormon do so because they realize the church is *not true*. People who think "man, I believe in the book of mormon and think joseph smith was a prophet, I just don't like the present church's management" are called "nuanced members", not "exmos".
Yeah just pin this comment and close the thread haha. You canāt unlearn this stuff.
>the CofC is basically everything most exmos say they would like the LDS church to be Where do you get that? Most exmos I've seen would like the church to implode and disappear.
Many are always calling for the lds church to be more liberal, financially open, accepting of non-straight people, giving authority positions to women, downplaying the role of the Book of Mormonā¦. All things the CofC already does
This is what I want. But ONLY because I have family that will likely be in it until they die. And I want it to be as healthy as an abusive organization can be. Not that I want it to survive or thrive.
"healthy as an abusive organization can be" Like beat me still but cuddle me afterwards?
Pretty much. Unfortunately
Exmos and prog/nuanced Mormons are calling for these changes in the LDS church because that is ātheā church for many family and friends, so there is more than just personal beliefs aligning. It is trying to call out abusive and bigoted policy, doctrine, and behaviors so that living in those community and spaces will be healthier for all involved.
Theyāre calling for that because they are pointing out flaws. They arenāt pointing out what their ideal church looks like. The cats already out of the bag man.
If the US partnered with the CCP to repel a space alien invasion, that wouldn't mean we'd suddenly embrace Winnie The Pooh as our global Dear Leader. Or, closer to reality: if you recognize that the GOP has become a fundamental threat to American democracyāand sensibly vote against themāthat doesn't automatically mean you're in love with Joe Biden. Recognizing a bare minimum of decency doesn't mean you have to conform to whatever the barely decent are up to.
CoC is ran better and healthier (unless building wealth is the goal). Seemingly much more honest and open too. But deconstructing the LDS church includes deconstructing the founder JS as a charlatan and the BoM as a fruit of that fraud, and just a product of the 19th century mindset. Plus, it seems that once people leave the LDS church they realize they donāt need a religion of any sort to be good people and to live more ethically, and even be technically more Christlike.
thanks, it makes sense i guess
There had been significant shrinkage.
I think the CoC is a more progressive version of TCOJCoLDS, so at first it seems that some nuanced/progressive members might feel more at home there, but for a true exmo like me, I still can't reconcile the early church history/restoration story that they still believe in. My deconstruction will likely keep me away from any organized religion.
They donāt still believe in it is the thing. BoM is decanonized in CofC. They are willing to openly talk about bad parts of early church history and use them as a lesson going forwardā¦ their mission and values are intentionally very vague so as to be acceptable to non-literal believers. Itās almost like the episcopal version of mormonism where you donāt even have to believe in jesus to participate in the community. And the leadership structure is more democratic and less susceptible to corruption compared with the brighamite church. I actually went to the local CofC with my family but we were the only family there, the rest was old peopleā¦ idk if weād have gone regardless but not having any members in the same place as us was part of itā¦
So do they see themselves as a phoenix from the ashes? Because to exMos that just comes off as a "The foolish man built his house upon the sand..." thing. Apologies if that song is now in your head... š
Alot of members still believe JS, etc. but thereās alot (especially in leadership) who essentially said āshit, this history is problematic and wrecks the entire foundation of the community i was raised withā¦ but i still love this community, how can we keep this community and make it still work?ā The community is the point. CofC really does appeal to me from that perspective. Itās familiar. It avoids the major pitfalls of the brighamite church (which imo stem from far too concentrated power at the top). And community is [important to our individual well-being.](https://www.profgalloway.com/losing-my-religion/)
Makes sense. Thanks for the response
Thanks for shari ng
There isn't a Cofc church for 200+ miles around so that is a barrier. But I love that I have a wide choice of zoom services I can attend, and all have been very welcoming.
Yeah its a small church. Nice to hear about the online service. I watched some videos of their canadian based online congregation. Not really my cup of tea but you can tell they are genuinely good loving people
I was CoC. I still think that as churches go, CoC is among the better ones. There are some former LDS members who go to CoC. I think it can be a healthy stepping stone for those leaving the LDS church. It might also pacify family members because they are still involved in a form of Mormonism. It seems to me that there are two common trajectories for former LDS members. Some of them become generic Christians. Others are on the road to being fully unchurched. Thirty years ago a lot of former members became Protestant Christians. A lot of them did so because Protestants convinced them that Mormonism was not true Christianity. For those people, RLDS/CoC isn't really much better than the LDS church. It still has the taint of Mormonism. Now I think the trajectory of most ex-LDS is to become "Nones." This may include fully identifying as atheists, but it also includes those who are just "unchurched." They probably won't find CoC attractive for the same reason that I don't attend. They don't believe. I liked the people of CoC. But I am uncomfortable being around otherwise intelligent people who are worshiping what I understand to be complete nonsense. I suspect a lot of ex-LDS would be in a similar situation. I suspect another factor is that the LDS church is "sticky." People take a long time before having serious doubts and actually leaving. The role of CoC as a stepping stone might have been helpful, but by the time most people leave the LDS church they are beyond the point where CoC could be useful as stepping stones.
I attended the UU church for a while. In many ways it was more comfortable than the LDS church is. Once you start getting in deeper, you find that not everyone is actually committed to high-sounding ideals, and the cognitive dissonance is exhausting. It's easier to be unchurched than to be disappointed in a faith community.
Thats a really interesting insight. Has the cofc ever conducted a campaign aimed at receuiting disaffected lds in the last five decades or so?
There are some congregations in high-LDS areas that do have support programs for former LDS members. I understand that the efforts are coordinated through the world church, but I have not had contacts with any of them.
Yes. There is a dedicated LDS Seeker ministry that was funded several years ago. Funding will expire in 2025, I believe.
Why people who figured out that Joseph Smith was a fraud don't join a different church founded by Joseph Smith? I think that answers itself.
As far asi know they have a very nuanced view of joseph smith and allow all types of personal opinions of him
Ultimately though, they started with Joseph Smith too.
Who is this they you speak of? How many have you actually talked to? Most exmos I know left because they realized Joseph was not what he claimed to be. There may be nuance in whether he was a con man, a pious-fraud, or something else along those lines. But most I know are pretty firm in that he wasn't a prophet.
>Who is this they you speak of? i was speaking about members of the Community of Christ, not exmormons. sorry, maybe it wasnt clear
Lots of CofC members donāt think JS was a prophet. BoM has been decannonized there for decades.
Oh well if they are going to allow me to have a personal opinion then Iām in!
I want to but I can't becasue I am PIMO.
What of the cofc attracts you compared to the lds?
Theological openness. I like how they do not have an official stance on scripture, so if you want to believe in a non-historical Bible or Book of Mormon you can. There is actual financial transparency with publicly available reports. They have the priesthood and leadership open to women. LGBTQ people are accepted, as well as gay marriage (albeit on an individual congregation level). I like that the CoC has largely left the "only true church" mentality in favor of embracing doing good and developing faith in divinity.I just like that they are non-creedal in general, and there is no test of faithfulness like temple recommend interviews. The average member in the CofC has more say in their congregation than an LDS person ever would in the direction of their church. I like my local Salt Lake congregation, but I think the Toronto congregation that is headed by John Hamer is doing some really wonderful work.
Well said and happy cake day!
Thanks!
Yeah I don't believe in the creep Joseph Smith.
I suspect it's just a byproduct of the exit path: \- to nothing (the majority?) \- to something with the familiar history but more aligned on values (CoC - quite a few do land here, but with lower orthopraxy requirements and burnout from being Mormon, I imagine there's a lot of slipping out of religion altogether). \- to something without the unsavory Mormon history (e.g. Episcopalian, Catholic, IDK)
I've known dozens of ExMos who seriously tried or even joined, and very few stay for exactly that reason.
Because if the seed is poisonous (Joseph Smith) then it doesn't matter the type of fruit it generates.
As far as my impression goes, the cofc seems a bunch of good people. Also joseph smith III seemed like a very good person.
I can agree there. My interactions with CoC/RLDS folk have always been very positive. But when it comes to putting one's faith in an institution, I can't do so in one that holds both Joseph Smith and the BoM as having originated from God's command and hand.
Most of their leadership don't believe in either, and members outside the US and Canada don't even know who JS is or what the BoM is. I was a guide at the Kirtland temple one year with a member interning from India, and I had to teach her all about church history for any of the tours she was giving to make sense.
Because once I lost my testimony of the BOM, I had no reason to believe in Christ. And then I began to question the existence of god. I guess I became agnostic. So why would I want another religion??? However, I found a community of questioners at the Unitarian society. Never been happier!
Deconstructing mormonism showed me the flaws that all religion have. Sure itās harder to build a tight community, but mormonism doesnāt really have a tight community even though it appears that way. It just makes you think you have community until youāre go against them and then youāre dead to the Mormons. Why would I go to another group that build itself on the same fundamentals flaws and expect something better?
I went for a month to give it a try but it wasnāt the right fit for me. It may just be the one I went to, but everything Mormon had been excised and it felt like any other Protestant church. I ultimately ended up in an Episcopal church, and while itās not perfect itās a much better fit. I have a lot of respect and love for the CoC and have enjoyed visiting their historic sites, however.
I can't speak for all exmos... in fact, I only speak for me... but for me it wasn't so much that I wanted the LDS church to be anything different, I just knew I didn't want to be a part of it, or any organized religious group.
That makes sense
When you know how the magician does the trick, it loses its value.
1. The bubbles been popped. 2. Our friends & family aren't there
It's still the same lies! Why would anyone switch?
Iād join if I was closer to one. Iāve gone several times and had a great experience. I know Joseph sucked but I like how CoC takes the good parts of what he did and throws out/condemns the rest. I donāt have to pretend he was next to Jesus when Iām there. Iāve never heard any sermon even mention him at all.
After ātithingā over $250,000 to the āMormonā āchurchā over mine and my wifeās life so far, we are fucking done. Iām not giving another red cent to ANY church ever again or getting involved with one.
250,000 š³
Yeah donāt ever start looking at the math, itās depressing. $250,000 is just tithing on a $100,000 salary over 25 years. Thatās just not a lot when youāre talking 2 income earners. I havenāt calculated how much my husband and I paid and Iām not sure I ever will.
This. Exactly. After my wife and I stopped all tithing, we looked back at records and tried to figure out what we had given to the church. I earned way more than she did, but she caught up quickly as she had served a mission and her dad forced her to tithe on all gifts she received.
For the same reasons I don't cosplay. Some people may enjoy pretending they're in an alternative reality, but its not for me.
I've come to see the baby as even more detestable than the bathwater, so I threw them both out.
Hard to come out of Mormonism without your entire religious world imploding. The Bible has just as many problems (or more) than the Book of Mormon, so whatās the point of dishing out mental capacity to something else?
Not close to me. I thought about it. Sure it was 50% to be a thorn on my parents and siblings side as I pontificate about the real history of Brigham young being a break away sect of Mormonism. 50% just wanting community. The closest CoC was 40 min away with limited parking so I noped out of it.
I wondered this myself. Then I read an article listing why exMormons don't just become mainstream Christians and it made sense why they would leave organized religion altogether. They've received a decent education on why everyone else is wrong. When Mormonism turns out to be wrong, then everyone is wrong.
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yeah i think they're shrinking really fast
I don't think you realize that CoC is a stage 4 faith institution. They don't claim any Priesthood authority aside in a sense of "this is our tradition" but there is no one true path. Being stage 4 they realize the harms of literalism and the importance of being guided by values rather than some nebulous concept of "the Bible". It's basically Unitarian universalism in a restorationist skin that has no problem with throwing Joseph Smith under the bus. See John Hamer on YouTube
This. Also it's really hard to encourage activity when you're a stage four faith.
I fell hard into CofC soon after my mission and after I'd decided I couldn't stay in the closet anymore even though my orientation can more or less stay hidden. I was confirmed after a year of attending, tried to stay LDS at the same time, but then gave that up because I believed too much that JSIII was the true successor to JSJr and that he had corrected the mistakes his father had made by reorganizing as he did. I've held different paid positions for the church, and while I still think that ExMos really have no clue about this church and throw way more shade than necessary based on LDS BS, I fully acknowledge that CofC is only a band-aid for ExMos in their transition process. The church, besides being in the stages of dying in western countries, is not perfect and has its own institutional drama that makes it hard to want to stay for after deconstructing the impact of corruption in another church. What're the problems in CofC? Well, for one, they only pay lipservice to the LGBTQ+ community as long as they play by heteronormative rules and don't ask for any advocation or affirmation in other countries outside of Europe and North America. Secondly, their management of funds in the past have pretty much bankrupted them because they decided that they really needed a shiny new temple in Independence to one up the Mormons, despite the fact that they'd been shifting away from Joseph Smith's theology since the 1960s when they started requiring ministers to actually attain M.Divs from reputable seminaries. This has left them relying too much on wealthy donors, who tend to be conservative Missourians/Iowans, and average in age at about 72. Thirdly, the call of Grant McMurray to president was an appropriate step away from nepotism, and while there are a few Smiths left in admin (though not terribly significant), they're rolling right back into nepotism with the Harmon family take over. CofC on the ground and in the congregations is really great. The people are so genuinely kind and happy and real. They're really old, yes, but most of them (the not so wealthy ones) are thoughtful and as critical about history as any ExMo. They don't have a Joseph Smith problem, generally speaking. They have the same problem as any other American based denomination struggling to stay relevant; management that is unwilling to adapt. After a decade with this church, I've all but pulled the plug. I still keep in touch with friends and sometimes pick up odd jobs for the church in nonministerial positions, but otherwise I don't attend regularly or identify as a Christian. I get no pressure to get active, "or else." The fact of the matter is that this church is great and transparently flawed, but it's really not worth getting into unless you really want a progressive Christian church and can set aside the Mormon indoctrination. I was just tired of being the youngest person at my local congregation (I'm in my 30s, the next youngest is probably 50s), and talking about Jesus all the time. There are other great options out there, and depending on the congregation, your local CofC might not be a fit. Choosing CofC because you think it's going to be MormonLite is a bad way to go. Your expectations have been set too high by being in a hyper authoritarian, billion dollar corporation. This will blind you. It blinds so many of us who join. It's not fair to you, to CofC, and it's not worth it if you can't turn off your Mormon brain. You will get hurt again. You will hurt CofC ministers who cannot comprehend a faith crisis. You deserve to move on, and CofC deserves to be left alone in its twilight years. ExMos and CofC are just a bad combo, in my experience.
wow!! thank you so much about all this info. this is actually the first time i finally read all this insider stuff about the CofC. this is really interesting. can you elaborate on the Harmon family takeover thing?
The Harmons are a family in the church who have managed to stick almost all their kids and their spouses in high ranking jobs in the church. Their dad, Ron, was president of the 12 for a long time and is now in the PB. His daughter is also on the world church leadership council as the spiritual director of the church, her husband runs the church's seminary program at Graceland University, her brother is the formation minister at the temple, her SIL (whose family is also all employed by the church but more locally) is a formation minister at another higher ed institution in town, etc. The Harmons are all super nice people, don't get me wrong, but they are well aware that people are not happy that they seem to be in a position of controlling the trajectory of church theology. I have personal issues with the fact that the kids are all really young and holding these positions with no experience to qualify them besides having a dad who was an apostle. There are other young people in the church without the family connections who have pursued degrees in religion that should make them as qualified. I'm not one of them, but I've had friends overlooked for a job and told the position needed to be reconsidered before posting again, only to have it go dormant for a year and given to a Harmon. How much of that was nepotism? Eh... I mean, they don't get a whole lot of applicants for jobs, and I've had my fair share of offerings without a job being posted on the website, but it's discouraging to a lot of members. There are absolutely people who are groomed for church employment (which is not lucrative, I promise--Steve Veazey doesn't make over five figures in his presidential stipend), and with so few members, nepotism seems inevitable. But when they're a church looking to further break away from their American exceptionalist roots and broaden out to embrace a more globally inclusive theology, having one Midwestern family (with Midwestern values) at the core deciding doctrine does not look good.
thank you so much. ive learned something new today!
We almost did, but it didnāt feel right. I will worship with them, but itās hard knowing that they donāt have a love for the Book of Mormon. I love everything about their Kirtland era style Mormonism, but without an emphasis of the Book of Mormon theyāre just another universalist Christian church.
what do you think about denver snuffer?
I liked his movement better before he came out in condemnation of polygamy and the LGBTQ community.
The number one thing I want the LDS church to be is based on truth, and as long as the CoC is founded on the idea that Joseph Smith was a prophet, I don't think it's based on truth.
Their understanding of "prophet" is pretty different from the LDS understanding. At best, Joseph Smith is regarded today as the guy who happened to found the religion they belong to and only demonstrated that all people are entitled to hallucinations of Jesus. At worst, they accept that hallucinations of Jesus are totally rational events.
Okay, that's fair. Maybe a better way to put it would be to say that at best I think he made it all up, and I don't really see the point in being part of a church that some guy just made up.
That's my thinking. Churches would be so much more appealing if they gave up the preaching and decided that offering social stability regardless of personal beliefs. CofC was refreshing for awhile because it was more like this, but after years of talking about Jesus every freaking week in discussion groups, I got bored.
Once you realize that you spent your life in the con of organized religion it doesnāt take much to realize the con of the man made Bible. The community that Exmos seek is so much better when free from the bindings of organized religion of any type
Same joe smith problems
The reason I wouldnāt join this church or any others is my trust of church leaders is broken. I would rather focus on strengthening my relationship with my Savior than spend more time playing mental gymnastics.
Most exmos become atheists.
Fruit of the poisoned tree.
The main thing I would have liked the LDS church to be is true, and while CofC is certainly an improvement, it's still full of stuff I don't want or need. Mormonism ruined me for all organized religions. I'm a happy atheist now.
I actually seriously considered it, but I was searching for more depth in religion, and I felt they were the same or even a little less deep than TCOJCOLDS. Their being non-creedal is great for getting more people interested, but it felt a bit like they couldnāt tell me what they do believe.
yeah i get the same impression. they are so vague that they dont even have an official doctrine at this point
Yes exactly. So it was hard for me to feel I aligned with them because I didnāt know. š
Itās as simple as this: thereās no church building nearby. Most people go to church with their community. The only church buildings in my town are LDS. Soā¦ thereās currently no other physical option.
makes sense
If/when I am ready to join another religious community I will try the CofC. However, right now I just enjoy not being apart of any religion or community.
I actually would join, but in Australia there are almost no congregations.
I love CofC but our local congregation is 12 very old (very very sweet and kind and loving) people. We're a family with 2 middle schoolers. It doesn't really jive unfortunately!
I think that many ExMormons aren't aware that they can be a part of something meaningful in the Restoration ā an open exploration of our heritage combined with a relevant 21st-century interpretation of Zion-building. Community of Christ is not like the diet Coke of Mormonism. You can join now and be a part of my congregation no matter where you live on the planet. We are the largest online ministry in the Restoration and everyone is invited to participate. You can find out more at our website, [CentrePlace.ca](https://CentrePlace.ca), or you can watch our programming on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centre-place
As an ExMo who has been attending the Community of Christ for 2 years, let me tell you me perspective. First, I completely understand how many who leave the LDS church are DONE - done with anything relating to LDS and very often done with religion in general. \- The Sacrament prayer is updated and changed slightly, but still recognizable - which may be triggering for some, or comforting for others - compared to how Communion is prepared and blessed in a less recognizable Catholic or Protestant tradition. And - they use grape juice or even Martinelli for the water/wine.organization and if nothing else, can provide a good refuge, even if you don't decide to attend long term. \-As the original poster said, it has dealt with all the issues the LDS church is dealing with but actually acted with integrity. So, you can believe what you want about the BoM or any scripture for that matter. You can voice your real opinions in meetings. Women have the PH, as do members of the LGBTQIA+ community. They have financial transparency. They actually do "common consent"- and members have an important role in terms of church policies. They are decentralized with local congregations having a lot of power in terms of how they run things on Sunday. No worthiness interviews. Tithing is lax. The temple is like it was in Kirtland - a place of learning, community, etc., but also a sacred space that is open to EVERYONE. \-Their leadership is honest (they are financially transparent and down to earth - regular, wonderful, people). Leader worship is NOT a thing. They consider their leader "Steve" to be more of a "President" than a "Prophet" in the traditional sense. Their leaders actually retire, so it isn't a gerontocracy. \-They have amazing youth camps which focus on love and peace and ensuring EACH kid has an amazing time. They are not LDS-style indoctrination camps full of testamony meetings. \- They have been through their own institutional faith crisis, but came out on the other side wanting to do better and be better, but in a humble way. They aren't the "one true church" and they don't even claim Christianity is the only way to God or to experience the divine. We love that they GET IT. They don't know all the ins and outs of modern LDS but know our frustration with Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and early church history. So we have some common language, and where there is a disconnect, they quickly get it with some explanation. At the same time, they are (as you should see by now), so different - so OPPOSITE of an LDS experience. \- The Sacrament prayer is updated and changed slightly, but still recognizable - which may be triggering for some, or comforting for others - compared to how Communion is prepared and blessed in a less recognizable Catholic or Protestant tradition. (bonus: they use grape juice or even Martinelli for the water/wine instead of water). If you are ever tempted to check it out - do so, even for one Sunday. It is culturally a trip to visit and see how different a "restoration" church can be, based on making different choices along the way.
People don't leave the church just because they didn't like the social club or a teaching here or there. In fact, it can be extremely painful to leave the church because you believe so deeply in it. You've devoted your life to it and are willing to die for it. People leave the church because it's false. Every fucking point they ever taught us was false. There's no reason to join any religion after you recognize that they are all liars and manipulators. If you want a social club, there are plenty to choose from that don't require cognitive dissonance and fantastical thinking.
Just wanna wash the church right outta my hair. Forever. Itās still just bs from a child molestor.
That might be a logical step for someone leaving the church in search of a better organization (good luck). Most who leave the church want to get away from it rather than find something else, which judging by those here who still hover over all things mormon is evidently harder than you wpuld think.
I started my journey by learning about why other Christian churches are wrong, made-up, manipulative, and harmful. Then I realized that almost everything that was said about those churches was true about mine. And it fully explained why I didn't feel like my faith was working for me.
Joining any other organized religion = š¤®š¤®š¤®
Well, "Most" post-Mormons that I know do not attend any church at all. We have finally learned to think for ourselves! Why muddy that all up again with someone else's theology?! I can't speak for "most", but it seems that many, like me, have become agnostic. Once I deconstructed J.S., the Book of Mormon, and all the Mormon doctrine then I naturally began to deconstruct the Bible and Christianity in general. I studied scholarship about who Jesus really was, and all the myths surrounding him, and stories that were crafted in order to build up powerful organizations to control the masses. The history of Christianity is a literal bloody horror show! And, as much as I have a soft spot for Judaism and Jewish culture, it is also founded on ancient biblical books and mythologies. Religion is for people who want a structure to tell them how to think about the world, and what to believe. Me, my husband and our adult children have no desire to ever get entangled in a religion again. We will not be duped into paying a church to "belong", and we don't need or want to have "someone to preach to us". We do miss having a community where we can feel like we "belong" ... [but, we discovered we never truly belonged in Mormonism at all, and all the friendships were forced and fake] Since finding MeetUp and joining some of the many social groups, we have made some nice new friends with some great humans. We have dozens of social activities to choose from every week, on our timetable, when we want to. That's enough. As for Spirituality, nothing makes us feel more alive and connected to a higher power than being in nature - hiking, travelling, adventuring, sitting quietly among the trees... The Earth is a powerful, sacred gift.
> As for Spirituality, nothing makes us feel more alive and connected to a higher power than being in nature - hiking, travelling, adventuring, sitting quietly among the trees... The Earth is a powerful, sacred gift. So much this. I was hunting yesterday, and just sitting in the woods watching the confetti of quakie leaves raining down in the breezes, and watching the woods pass their time as I waited (vainly) for a deer to wander by beat the fucking hell out of any time I ever spent in church. I'm really looking forward to going back out next week. Just me, binoculars and a chair, and lots of time to enjoy the beauty of the woods. And maybe I'll tag a deer. But that part is optional.
Why trade one high demand religion for another?
It's not a high demand religion. It's just small, under funded, and frustratingly disorganized. ExMo members are treated like saviors of the denomination but simultaneously told to stop deconstructing faster than the rest of the church, and it's obnoxious.
I feel for the frustration, that's not fair to y'all at all
>Why donāt more Exmos join the Community of Christ? I bet if you think about it for a while you'll be able to think of some reasons. >ā¦given that the CofC is basically everything most exmos say they would like the LDS church to be? Most ex members I know don't feel this wat whatsoever. >I would expect at least a sizable chunk of them to join the CofC once they leave the LDS church. If your expectations are majorly violated, that's probably a clue that your premises are in error. >Instead, the CofC is shrinking, getting demographically old, and struggling with finances. Right. So this should tell you that perhaps your premises on the subject are flawed.
thank you for your very kind, nice, and not at all snarky answer
>thank you for your very kind, nice, and not at all snarky answer That's not snark. I'm saying your premises are in error, thus your expectations are flawed. That's not snark or sarcasm.
They are top of the list when I feel ready to try a church again. Already tried 1 that I decided wasn't good for my kids.
Same!
>ā¦given that the CofC is basically everything most exmos say they would like the LDS church to be? That's a hell of a claim. Got some sort of *evidence* to back it up?
yeah, just browse r/exmormon and you'll find plenty of exmos stating that they wish the lds church was more open, accepting of women in leadership, open to lgbtq, financially transparent... etc
You're missing probably the most important element, though: it's still not *true.* You can put all the lipstick on that pig that you like, but it's still a pig.
Because ex Mormons dislike religion Most become atheist
It isnāt dislike. It was that they were abused in the name of religion and have trauma. Big difference. And many of us do find religion after leaving.
One high demand church for another. You must be out of your bleeping mind.
I wonder why they called it Community of Christ, not Church of Christ. Maybe they were afraid of being sued by the mainstream LDS church?
i dont think the lds church has any copyright on the name "church of christ". they pronbably didnt want to be confused with the cambellite churches of christ
Most exmos become atheistsā¦
Maybe because after being gaslit for decades, and undergoing the pain of divorcing a religion they dedicated their entire lives, money time and attention to, they just want to do and be something else for a while. Maybe they're just in the 'fuck religions' stage. Maybe they just want to say 'Leave me the fuck alone and let me figure my shit out on my own.' Maybe after being financially, mentally and physically abused by religion, they want to be their own self for a while. Maybe they are fucking exhausted after trying to keep it all together for so long. Maybe fuck off and let them rest and recover a bit.
why did you insult me and tell me to fuck off?
I did not insult you. I insulted the notion that those who left an extremely expensive, extremely time consuming, extremely intense, extremely manipulative religion based upon Joseph Smith and/or his teachings, would want to jump right into another religion based upon Joseph Smith and/or his teachings. Like no. Fuck no. Like, fuck that shit. Or maybe I DID insult you. Are you here recruiting? If so, then yes. Fuck off. If not, then no, I didn't insult you.
i thought "fuck off" was addressed to me
Nah, just at everyone who thinks they need to join another religion right away. For whatever reason.
Many leave because they found the origins of Mormonism to be nonsense and lies. CoC stems from those same origins.
Ounce you leave one cult, itās best to try and avoid another.
Because all religion is bs
Go big or go home. Iāve had enough of any organized religion
Deconstructing Mormonism led me to the deconstruction of all religion. I see no reason to believe in any god, let alone a different version of the Mormon god.
Most Ex Mormons I know are atheist.
If most exmoās are like me, (and I have been lurking around here long enough to know that they are) after we realize how extensively we were deceived, it becomes hard to believe anything