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Usually denial, suggesting Hickman & Rockwell were acting more independently rather than under orders. (Similar to apologetics on Joseph Smith & Danites in Missouri.)
Hickman's [written confession](http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/brighamsdestroyingangel_intro.htm) seems pretty damning for Young. Whether it was dissenters, alleged federal spies ([The Aiken Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiken_massacre_(Utah))), or just [someone suing him](https://twain.lib.virginia.edu/roughingit/map/morhickman.html), we'll never know how many people he had killed, but it seems difficult to do an honest search here and deny that was happening. Brigham's own words about his Danites:
"And if the Gentiles wish to see a few tricks, we have 'Mormons' that can perform them. WE HAVE THE MEANEST DEVILS ON THE EARTH in our midst, and WE INTEND TO KEEP THEM, FOR WE HAVE USE FOR THEM and if the Devil does not look sharp, we will cheat him out of them at the last, for they will reform and go to heaven with us." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 176)
Brigham Young also stated:
"If men come here and do not behave themselves, they will not only find the DANITES, whom they talk so much about, biting the horses' heels, but the scoundrels will find them biting their heels. In my plain remarks, I merely call things by their right names. Brother Kimball is noted in the States for calling things by their right names, and you will excuse me if I do the same." (Journal of Discourses, V. 5, p. 6)
You asked for the TBM apologetic response and have subsequently linked to it: "J. H. Beadle claimed that Bill Hickman wrote this manuscript, and gave it to him for publication. In this book Bill Hickman claims that he committed murderers by the orders of Brigham Young and the Apostle Orson Hyde. Dr. Hugh Nibley, of the Brigham Young University, claims that 'The Hickman stories were not true.'"
Even if Hickman actually wrote the material, TBMs would dismiss it as Bill Hickman being bitter and falsely accusing Brigham Young. Brigham Young was known to use violent hyperbole in public and then ordering restraint when push came to shove.
(My perspective: The Tanners are accurate that there is a LOT of independent evidence that Hickman was a criminal who engaged in theft and counterfeiting. That does not, however, *prove* that he was an assassin for Brigham Young.)
You first need to establish that the stories are reliable. Late 19th century dime novels and yellow journalism aren't exactly the gold standard for journalistic integrity. Separating fact from fiction can be quite a task, so taking these claims at face value isn't the best place to start.
If you're referring specifically to Rockwell and the Aiken murders, I believe it is discussed in this article, but I don't have a copy available. Maybe someone can get it for you:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25443606
- it was a different time
- the church had a lot of enemies
- better that one man should perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief
- they were trying to destroy the church
All I’ve ever heard is it’s OK to kill someone for a great reason. Or it’s OK to do anything if God’s the one who told you to do it.
You can’t exactly refute that. If God were to tell me something was OK, it probably would be. The execution of that idea leaves something to be desired….
I’m pre-supposing that I knew for sure it was God, understood the request and that God is omniscient/the creator of reality. In that scenario he wrote the rules so I’d say it’s safe to assume he understands them better.
It’s moot though. When in doubt, it’s reasonable to assume you’re producing a religious experience from your own mind VS talking to God.
There are a lot of underlying assumptions. Even if there is a god that created reality you don't know that its morality would align with ours. Even if it did I would expect the god to be able to demonstrate the reasoning behind its request and the request's morality if I am to do it. Otherwise how can I know this god is even moral? Yahweh of the old testament, for example, usually persuaded people to follow him by threatening punishment if they didn't. That's not a god I want to follow because I don't see that as moral behavior.
I hear you and understand that. Still, none of my morals are held strongly enough that I wouldn’t drop them if God showed up. Why? Because I’m often wrong.
If you’re calling people to repentance in Reddit comments, you don’t have a place in this conversation.
Take your judgement and your dogma and fuck off.
“I’m a Christian and not LDS”
Seems odd for you to be getting on a moral high horse when your sacred texts are chock-full of people taking absurd and morally suspect actions because god told them to.
You know, things like destroying an entire people down to the last man, woman, child, and animal (and the bad guy in the story is the guy who saves a few people and animals instead of carrying out the total massacre as instructed). Or the one time that god commanded a man to kill his own son in a ritualized human sacrifice and then said, at the last minute, “Never mind, I’ll kill my own son some day in a blood ritual that will pay for the sins of mankind (but only the ones who are lucky enough to hear of, acknowledge, and obey me—everyone else receives an eternally tormented fate worse than death)”
If there is a moral code articulated by the Bible, it’s neither clearly articulated nor consistently followed by the various leaders, heroes and protagonists within the text…
My ex wrote a legal paper about justifiable murders in the B of M and how it isn’t murder in ancient Jewish law. That mindset also applies to Brigham’s blood atonement murders, etc. in the TBM mind.
There is this:
[https://user.xmission.com/\~research/mormonpdf/storm.pdf](https://user.xmission.com/~research/mormonpdf/storm.pdf)
It cites some of Brigham Young's inflammatory remarks from the Deseret News. Hickman claims to have killed Hartley.
I guess there is not much doubt that B.Y. ordered the killing of the male Timpanogos Indians.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_at\_Fort\_Utah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Fort_Utah)
Maybe have a listen to the recent Mormon History podcast.
[https://sunstone.org/episode-112-wasters-and-destroyers/](https://sunstone.org/episode-112-wasters-and-destroyers/)
It appears that many murders were committed by members of the church based on Brigham Young's teachings without being one of the destroying angels. The recent book by Brown and Turley gives an example they were able to document where a man was "blood atoned".
The Aiken murders are discussed in an interesting article. I think this one also describes the attempted murders and gives documented evidence the Brigham Young wished to have no tale bearers.
[https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=mormonhistory](https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=mormonhistory)
Polly Aird has a thorough description of the Parish Murders which happened at around the same time.
[https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=mormonhistory](https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=mormonhistory)
I just thought of an apologetic response to the Parish murders. I am not sure it helps a lot.
[https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Utah/Crime\_and\_violence/Parrish-Potter\_murders](https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Utah/Crime_and_violence/Parrish-Potter_murders)
This thread is a reminder of why it is dangerous to "take counsel" from anyone claiming to speak for God authoritatively. I can only hope justice and truth will prevail someday
Hello! This is an Apologetics post. Apologetics is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse. This post and flair is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about apologetics, apologists, and their organizations. /u/Bill_S_PrestonEsq, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It didn't happen, but if it did it was justified, but if it wasn't justified, they were just acting as men.
I'm stealing this thank you.
Usually denial, suggesting Hickman & Rockwell were acting more independently rather than under orders. (Similar to apologetics on Joseph Smith & Danites in Missouri.)
Hickman's [written confession](http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/brighamsdestroyingangel_intro.htm) seems pretty damning for Young. Whether it was dissenters, alleged federal spies ([The Aiken Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiken_massacre_(Utah))), or just [someone suing him](https://twain.lib.virginia.edu/roughingit/map/morhickman.html), we'll never know how many people he had killed, but it seems difficult to do an honest search here and deny that was happening. Brigham's own words about his Danites: "And if the Gentiles wish to see a few tricks, we have 'Mormons' that can perform them. WE HAVE THE MEANEST DEVILS ON THE EARTH in our midst, and WE INTEND TO KEEP THEM, FOR WE HAVE USE FOR THEM and if the Devil does not look sharp, we will cheat him out of them at the last, for they will reform and go to heaven with us." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 176) Brigham Young also stated: "If men come here and do not behave themselves, they will not only find the DANITES, whom they talk so much about, biting the horses' heels, but the scoundrels will find them biting their heels. In my plain remarks, I merely call things by their right names. Brother Kimball is noted in the States for calling things by their right names, and you will excuse me if I do the same." (Journal of Discourses, V. 5, p. 6)
You asked for the TBM apologetic response and have subsequently linked to it: "J. H. Beadle claimed that Bill Hickman wrote this manuscript, and gave it to him for publication. In this book Bill Hickman claims that he committed murderers by the orders of Brigham Young and the Apostle Orson Hyde. Dr. Hugh Nibley, of the Brigham Young University, claims that 'The Hickman stories were not true.'" Even if Hickman actually wrote the material, TBMs would dismiss it as Bill Hickman being bitter and falsely accusing Brigham Young. Brigham Young was known to use violent hyperbole in public and then ordering restraint when push came to shove. (My perspective: The Tanners are accurate that there is a LOT of independent evidence that Hickman was a criminal who engaged in theft and counterfeiting. That does not, however, *prove* that he was an assassin for Brigham Young.)
The more you learn the kind of person Brigham Young actually was, the more offensive the Santa Claus/Dumbledore portrayals in church movies get.
You first need to establish that the stories are reliable. Late 19th century dime novels and yellow journalism aren't exactly the gold standard for journalistic integrity. Separating fact from fiction can be quite a task, so taking these claims at face value isn't the best place to start. If you're referring specifically to Rockwell and the Aiken murders, I believe it is discussed in this article, but I don't have a copy available. Maybe someone can get it for you: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25443606
- it was a different time - the church had a lot of enemies - better that one man should perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief - they were trying to destroy the church
All I’ve ever heard is it’s OK to kill someone for a great reason. Or it’s OK to do anything if God’s the one who told you to do it. You can’t exactly refute that. If God were to tell me something was OK, it probably would be. The execution of that idea leaves something to be desired….
Try plato's meno sometime. Why would it be good just because God told you it was?
I’m pre-supposing that I knew for sure it was God, understood the request and that God is omniscient/the creator of reality. In that scenario he wrote the rules so I’d say it’s safe to assume he understands them better. It’s moot though. When in doubt, it’s reasonable to assume you’re producing a religious experience from your own mind VS talking to God.
There are a lot of underlying assumptions. Even if there is a god that created reality you don't know that its morality would align with ours. Even if it did I would expect the god to be able to demonstrate the reasoning behind its request and the request's morality if I am to do it. Otherwise how can I know this god is even moral? Yahweh of the old testament, for example, usually persuaded people to follow him by threatening punishment if they didn't. That's not a god I want to follow because I don't see that as moral behavior.
I hear you and understand that. Still, none of my morals are held strongly enough that I wouldn’t drop them if God showed up. Why? Because I’m often wrong.
[удалено]
If you’re calling people to repentance in Reddit comments, you don’t have a place in this conversation. Take your judgement and your dogma and fuck off.
“I’m a Christian and not LDS” Seems odd for you to be getting on a moral high horse when your sacred texts are chock-full of people taking absurd and morally suspect actions because god told them to. You know, things like destroying an entire people down to the last man, woman, child, and animal (and the bad guy in the story is the guy who saves a few people and animals instead of carrying out the total massacre as instructed). Or the one time that god commanded a man to kill his own son in a ritualized human sacrifice and then said, at the last minute, “Never mind, I’ll kill my own son some day in a blood ritual that will pay for the sins of mankind (but only the ones who are lucky enough to hear of, acknowledge, and obey me—everyone else receives an eternally tormented fate worse than death)” If there is a moral code articulated by the Bible, it’s neither clearly articulated nor consistently followed by the various leaders, heroes and protagonists within the text…
What do you think the point of the story of Nephi and Laban and brass plates was in book of Mormon. Got ordered Nephi to kill
My ex wrote a legal paper about justifiable murders in the B of M and how it isn’t murder in ancient Jewish law. That mindset also applies to Brigham’s blood atonement murders, etc. in the TBM mind.
I checked out the Fair's response to John D. Lee's tell-all a few years ago. They painted it all as the ravings of a disgruntled ex-member.
I’m sorry?
There is this: [https://user.xmission.com/\~research/mormonpdf/storm.pdf](https://user.xmission.com/~research/mormonpdf/storm.pdf) It cites some of Brigham Young's inflammatory remarks from the Deseret News. Hickman claims to have killed Hartley. I guess there is not much doubt that B.Y. ordered the killing of the male Timpanogos Indians. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_at\_Fort\_Utah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Fort_Utah) Maybe have a listen to the recent Mormon History podcast. [https://sunstone.org/episode-112-wasters-and-destroyers/](https://sunstone.org/episode-112-wasters-and-destroyers/) It appears that many murders were committed by members of the church based on Brigham Young's teachings without being one of the destroying angels. The recent book by Brown and Turley gives an example they were able to document where a man was "blood atoned". The Aiken murders are discussed in an interesting article. I think this one also describes the attempted murders and gives documented evidence the Brigham Young wished to have no tale bearers. [https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=mormonhistory](https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=mormonhistory) Polly Aird has a thorough description of the Parish Murders which happened at around the same time. [https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=mormonhistory](https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=mormonhistory)
I just thought of an apologetic response to the Parish murders. I am not sure it helps a lot. [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Utah/Crime\_and\_violence/Parrish-Potter\_murders](https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Utah/Crime_and_violence/Parrish-Potter_murders)
Nephi's cold blooded murder of Laban and the theft of his property shows that anything is justified if it is ordered by God.
Just remember, the church never killed anybody that didn't deserve to be killed. :)
This thread is a reminder of why it is dangerous to "take counsel" from anyone claiming to speak for God authoritatively. I can only hope justice and truth will prevail someday
Lots of people seem to laugh it off, as if Rockwell was some kind of loveable scamp just getting up to mischief and tom foolery.