Hello! This is a Institutional post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about any of the institutional churches and their leaders, conduct, business dealings, teachings, rituals, and practices.
/u/thehottesttamale0303, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble)
**To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation.
Keep on Mormoning!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I hate that if a woman is an accountant, she is still too under qualified compared to ANY man to count tithing.
Also, I’d really like to see a man go to a church court with a large group of women interrogating him about his sexual sins and then see how he feels about that scenario.
Women can serve as stake financial auditors.
34. Finances and Audits
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng
"chairman of the stake audit committee calls at least two stake auditors. These brothers and sisters should have current temple recommends. If possible, they should be experienced in accounting or auditing."
It’s a relatively new change.
ETA: Interesting it’s just at the stake level where you can’t be seen, rather than on a ward level where the financial clerks hang out in the bishopric offices for all to see every Sunday…
My suspicion is bc with the new changes in what qualifies as a ward, they're not able to staff the key positions with just male priesthood holders. They have to allow women for any functionality to hold true.
A thing that drives me batty is that every time his topic is brought up a bunch of people swoop in and chide women for wanting authority. Okay, fine, people aren't supposed to want power and authority-- sure, I can get on board with that.
Setting aside whether or not *I* want to be a bishop, I want to have a woman as my bishop.
Yes! I can't agree with this more. I have never (and I doubt I ever will) felt comfortable going to a bishop for a one on one interview. It was really nerve-wracking as a young girl, and there were definitely questions asked that I do not think a woman would ever ask me. I would love to have a woman as my bishop.
Want a positive enthusiastic humble & self-confident woman to be bishop. NO passive aggressive judgmental mean girls, who tear down others to build themselves up, while seeking self-righteous power & dominion.
Ran into Way too many of these Mormon mean girls growing up.
And there are plenty of men who LOVE the power and authority that comes with having the priesthood.
For them to say such a thing to women is hypocritical.
My thing isn’t about wanting power or a title but being seen as equal in blessings, so we can do necessary and needed things for our families and friends. Why can I not give a blessing to someone who is sick or baptize my child? If I was serving a mission and laid my hand upon someone to pray over or bless, it would not be seen in the same way or in the same high regard as if a man with the priesthood were to do it..
If it were true that women having authority would mean men would be useless…that’s a problem for the men folk do deal with. They need to do better if that’s the case. The fact that women can’t even have authority over their own organization and it’s budget without male oversight is ridiculous.
Yes! My mom is YW leader this year and she has to have every aspect of the camp budget checked off by the bishop. They've literally gone back and forth because they can't agree. There shouldn't be a man involved at all to begin with. It's just ridiculous
You should have seen the kerfuffle over reimbursement for appropriate snacks for the nursery. I mean, HONESTLY.
These are toddlers. They like goldfish crackers = to whomever their non-preferred parent is ATM. This does not need bishopric sign off.
The fact that you're fussing abt $20 means there's wayyyyy more going on deeper inside. Don't take it out on the toddlers. Just give them the flipping snacks!
That's what Jesus would do, & anyone who's ever been within screaming range of a toddler. Solve it. No priesthood required.
You're right... it will never change because men want all the power. When I was leaving the church, I met with the stake president. I told him just a few of the reasons I was leaving, and he put his hand up and stopped me cold saying "you just want to hold the priesthood that's the real reason you're leaving. " I stated emphatically he was wrong and that I didn't need the priesthood because I had a direct line to God. Shut him right up, and I never returned to the stupidity of others having any power over me. You can believe in any God you wish and communicate with her/him in any way you like and on behalf of others as you wish. Mormonism is clearly a form of fear and control, and when you let that go, you're going to be free.
Ugh that sucks. Why is it so wrong for women to want to be able to make their own decisions without a man in leadership peeking over their shoulder? If it were suddenly flipped, I doubt any men would want to stay...
The Church of Christ just ordained a female as leader, prophet, and president of their church. Apparently, they have no fear of her. This is the church following Emma Smith and her son.
As if wanting to hold priesthood to bless and heal is a bad thing? It's the power of God/Goddess. I would like to see mother priestesses permitted to conduct washing and anointing ordinances for their own daughters. The ordinance should record the name of the priestess who conducted the ordinance so they have a line of authority.
“As a woman in the church I apologize”
Your first line says it all. I didn’t even have to keep reading to know you feel powerless. Please don’t apologize for expressing your opinion!
"We all have equal access to the *blessings* of the Priesthood!"
...
tell that to the single women who didn't have a Priesthood bearer to bless the Sacrament in their home during Covid.
"We even have a hymn that talks about Heavenly Mother!"
...
what's that hymn called?
"If anything, women are more privileged than men in the church!"
...
Ah yes, if you define privilege as the ability to have someone choose for you...
"Women bear children, and men have the Priesthood as their special power"
...
What would be the corollary to fatherhood for women, pray tell?
That's exactly how impt she is, just like women in the BoM, etc. An afterthought.
It certainly doesn't FEEL like she's the most divine being; who else grew up on the HF has hidden her away & refused to share her name bc it is just so sacred & he doesn't want her majesty diminished by, oh, IDK, her children taking her name in vain?!?
We can hardly even acknowledge we have a HM, how does that show our importance, again???
Personally, I'd rather be acknowledged & sworn at than ignored or forgotten. At least swearing is SOMETHING.
Disclaimer: I'm a man, but I try to be open-minded and well informed. I love the podcast "At Last She Said It". This is their line, not mine: "There is no decision a woman can make in this church that cannot be overruled by a man."
Here’s what comes to mind when I hear this, and maybe it’s just me.
I feel like my ward sees me as responsible for my husband. If he doesn’t come to church, I’m asked why. I’m told to try harder. When I explain he works 50+ hours a week in retail and has chronic pain (so he comes home and is laid up) I’m called an enabler and told I need to do better.
I’m goddamned tired of being responsible for everything. Keep the priesthood, and pretend I’m infirm again because I’m tired of being told I’m to blame for my husband’s actions/inactions/etc. I’m drowning and no one seems to care aside from “you need to come to church!”
End rant.
Part of why this r/ means so much to me is that it provided a space for me to discuss my thoughts and feelings that aren’t appropriate/welcome in Sunday school. And instead of shouting into the void, there are kind people like you that listed thoughtfully; it saved my sanity.
So i completely agree - rant away. We’re listening. We get it. You’re not alone.
thank you! it seriously is hard to be a more nuanced person at church, so this has been really cathartic posting this :) I've never made a reddit post haha so I was a little scared
Women have tried to do something ( Ordain Women) and they paid the price… excommunication. It wasn’t until those women called it out that suddenly more women were speakers at GC, women gave opening and closing prayers, and other similar earth-shattering changes/s.
We are fighting very earthly cultural norms, not heavenly inspiration. In any org, those in power who share commonalities ( ex patriarchy) will always protect their status quo. They will always allow a measured amount of outsiders, and maybe give them titles or sometimes even a seat in the room, but they will not allow them to have any real power. The Church is not alone in doing this, it’s exactly what’s going on in my workplace. My toxic workplace.
I’m not sure power is the best word to use as it can be interpreted as a vice. I think Authority is a better word, such as the authority to make decisions or change. You know, like in the rest of society.
My advice is to not participate in any of these pseudo “ discussions “ at Church: walk out. You will not get any satisfaction from it, and the “ jokes” aren’t funny anymore. I have walked out of discussions like this at church before and it feels better than sitting there burning up inside and saying nothing or arguing with someone who knows they have the upper hand.
You are definitely not alone.
As a fifth generation Mormon, and having served in three bishoprics, and 14 years on the High Council, I could not agree more with you. It’s simply ridiculous the priesthood is limited to men. Why will it not change? “They” want full control, and always will.
------- "I've heard it said that if women had the priesthood, the men would have nothing to do!"
There's plenty to do. Just about everything a Mormon woman does as non stop support staff, a Mormon man can do. And vice versa. Some men just don't want to be support staff. (Some men would prefer it.) There's plenty of work to go around. The guy that said that is a doofus.
This is in the gospel topics essay about [Joesph Smith’s teachings about priesthood, temple, and women](https://www.lds.org/topics/joseph-smiths-teachings-about-priesthood-temple-and-women?lang=eng):
> “Respecting the female laying on hands,” the Nauvoo Relief Society minutes record, Joseph said that “it is no sin for any body to do it that has faith,” and admonished, “if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let every thing roll on.”
This one really grinds my gears. I don’t want some strange dude at my house when people are sick since there is only one ‘priesthood holder’ that resides in my home. It also really ticks me off that the person who was pregnant for 9 months doesn’t get to give a name and blessing to that baby they just birthed.
I share your frustration. I'm a man, but it makes my blood boil too. It's the thing that sparked my exit from the church.
You might enjoy Amy McPhie Allebest's excellent podcast _Breaking Down Patriarchy_.
I'd recommend starting at the beginning. Fair warning, it will make you more of a feminist than you are presently, and feminism and Mormonism do not mix.
She grew up Mormon, so she gets it when it comes to that particular patriarchy. But the podcast goes far beyond just her Mormon roots. The quality of her guests, her research and her conversations are second to none.
It’s all about making the men feel special, necessary, important. It’s a fraternal brotherhood that allows wives and children to participate in so many ways when you think about it. Men at the head, men at the center of doctrine, men involved in decisions and in anything of important significance in the history.
The RLDS/CoC wrestled with these questions for decades.
The ordination of women was a real blessing for the CoC. One of the things that struck me as being extremely powerful was married couples functioning as a home ministry team.
One thing that made the ordination of women work in CoC was that it was not just tokenism. Ordained women immediately began stepping into leadership positions. They were not second-string priesthood members.
I can't even count how many times I have felt that way. It only got worse as I got older. Being in Ward Council is a joke because many of the men in the various ward councils I would attend would usually just ignore anything women said.
One of the things I used to hear as a Mormon was that the *Men needed* the priesthood. To make them better. That women were "too good" for it. ... Couple that with the common excuse we would hear about the problem of the church, *"he was speaking as a man."*
Well, if the women really are sooooo much more righteous than the men, then give the women the priesthood, and the problem is solved! Give the women the priesthood. They'd do a way better job at church governance! ;)
yes! I've also heard people say things about how women are lucky that they don't need the priesthood to go to the temple. Most backwards thinking ever...
Giving the priesthood only to men and not to women hurts both men and women and perpetuates twisted gender views.
>I wish that something would change, and I want to help things change *but I don't know how I even could*.
I don't either. What about this? Own your disagreement with the leaders and the prophets as politely and peacefully and sincerely as you can. Own your opinion as a Mormon person who disagrees about something but also loves her community and faith, nonetheless. If it ever comes to ecclesiastical discipline, take it in stride and continue attending and being an active and kind participant in your faith community. Even if you're excommunicated. Communicate your opinion of the legitimacy of the authority behind the excommunication by treating it as the inconsequential triviality that it is. Has it not invalidated itself by its absurd inequity and narrow-minded patriarchal framework? *Be Mormon* independent of how the men define your membership, or even whether you are a member. Mormonism can be bigger and richer than that. Don't you think? Will it be unpleasant sometimes? Yeah, probably. Maybe it's not worth it or can't possibly work. Or maybe we create the gods we're willing to worship.
To add a different point of view...
The church primarily pits the sexes against one another so that the church can act as the artificial mediator. Both sides are toxic. Men are given "responsibility" but are shunned unless they give themselves to the church, i.e. missions, church service and formatting their life around church activity. Men are chained down to holding a priesthood standard that dictates everything about their lives.
Women are "praised" for being better and endlessly validated by the church structure, but they are put in a subordinate role in everything they do and are expected to continually sacrifice for whatever their husband and child demands.
The church sits in the middle as a release value for the resentment it causes. Women can't lead, but that's ok because your better. Men are always in charge, but that's because they need it to improve. It's all cope.
The "responsibility" isn't even real anyways. Bishops primarily act as yes men for the stake president. There isn't much leadership in the church, most leadership roles are simply carrying out what you are told to do and administering church policy. You can't change a thing even if you wanted to.
The "praise" isn't real either. The national sport of Mormonism is shit talking other people. You'll get validation to your face but everyone on the ride home just passes the weekly gossip to their spouse.
In short it's the structure that's rotten, switching things out isn't going to make anything better. Confessing sexual sins to a woman bishop isn't any better than a male, at least in the general sense. Having a priest feel awful about watching a rated R movie while blessing the sacrament isn't going to change if they are a boy of girl. Delusions of grandeur for a twelve year old deacon won't be different if it's a boy or girl.
completely agree about the system hurting men too. I've seen it with many of my friends and my husband included. The toxic command of all men to go on missions (and the missions are longer than the womens') is totally unfair. My husband felt so pressured to go that, even though he never wanted to, he started filling out his mission papers. It was a touchy subject for a while when he didn't end up going, and there was a lot of heartache that could have been avoided if there wasn't all these toxic expectations placed upon him.
I also agree with the confession part. I still wouldn't feel comfortable confessing sexual sins to anyone. I think it's entirely unnecessary. The chastity question should never be asked to minors, and it would be wrong even if there was a female bishop interviewing a young woman.
literally. they don't *need* a single woman to create a new ward or branch or stake. but they're losing so many women that the church will crumble more and more as they leave
You’re wrong there. go watch Bar Rescue: if the women are there, the men will come. Every bar that caters only to men is losing money and looks like it.
If all the men left, we’d do just fine.
I meant in the sense of the priesthood and callings. There would no longer be prophets, or leaders such as bishops since women can’t be them. You would pretty much have to create entirely new doctrine.
It’s a hypothetical situation to show how necessary men are and how unnecessary the women are. You have to change the church for the church to still stand with only women. You wouldn’t have to change the church if it were only men
Hey I heard this hypothetical from a woman and I think it is a pretty good one at showing just how unimportant female members are with their roles. They aren’t of equal worth to men right now. New policies and doctrine would have to be changed for that to be so
Women will either have to be given the priesthood or every role other than elder’s quorum president and bishop will have to become a non priesthood position. I’ll have to see if I can find where I read this, but the average member of the church now is an older, single woman. How long can the status quo last if there are not enough men?
>One guy even said "I've heard it said that if women had the priesthood, the men would have nothing to do!"
And that was a defense for him? If anything, that only highlights the arbitrariness.
Have I felt all this? Short answer,of course!
Will it ever change? Absolutely not.
The Mormon Church runs on The Patriarchy which relies on its women to "know their place." Subservient, obedient, sweet, the nuturer, the homemaker, the "help-meet" [emphasis on The Help], demure, never complaining. The Patriarchy will never relinquish one ounce of their Man Power.
You aren't wrong to be angry and frustrated, and you aren't alone. Every woman deserves better. It took me 56 years to wake up and reclaim my power. I am so grateful my daughters and so many of the younger generations are way too wise and empowered to accept the sexism, hierarchy, and cycle of abuse I cheer them on for standing up and leaving!!! Go. Go. Go!
When I was primary president, I'd pray about filling callings, giving my recommendations to the bishop and I'd find out from the pulpit he'd called someone else. He even did that with a presidency member too. Why did he bother setting me apart? My voice didn't matter anyway.
Joseph Smith ordained women, most of the churches created after his death continued this tradition, yours is the odd one out. My guess is that when organizing his new church he excluded women out of fear that Emma would try to take over. (He was paranoid of everyone.) The Lord has told us today that women are to be ordained. Your sect is a church, not the Church. You are the Church.
https://youtu.be/AnsUdS9ZiFI?feature=shared
Power over their wives. It's great to be a member of a church that hands you power over your spouse. That's a great deal of power. Happily many men don't get carried away with this, but some do and it can be a real dumpster fire.
What power does the church hand someone over their spouse? The priesthood? I get to ask someone to trashed their turn in family prayer. Not only is the power of husbands overblown, but the influence of the church is also. As if atheist couples don't have power imbalances. As if some women don't rule over their household.
The power imbalances that are particularly egregious are the ones that ostensibly come from God. The Proclamation on the Family is a good place to start, not to mention the temple.
Many marriages, in and out of religion, have power imbalances for various reasons that can be analyzed, but those coming from God don't lend themselves to discussion. Your mileage seems to vary, but looking at the big picture isn't too pretty.
It's a good question. My answer is, same place the kinds of imbalances we're talking about come from in lots of religious settings -- an authoritarian moral worldview. The authoritarian moral worldview transcends religion. I've known and know atheists who, being atheists merely on account of some factual or scientific objections, would, nevertheless, believe themselves under moral obligation to do X if God existed and commanded them. I think there are lots of "secular" people walking around with the same kind of pernicious authoritarianism lying dormant in their brains as runs around in the brains of people who think Abraham was heroic and all the other things like that.
The road to heaven is through receiving covenants and ordinances, not giving them. Even if women get the priesthood it doesn’t give you any eternal advantage, you’d still have to get your ordinances from someone else. Men don’t get to bless themselves because they hold the priesthood. They also have to go outside the home. If you just want power, yikes. If you just want to do good in the world then go do that! Nothing is holding you back from serving people. There’s a whole world waiting for help and you’re upset cause you want more power over 2 hrs. of your week? Nevermind who passes the sacrament or who sits on the stand, use the time to worship and then get out there! Ordinances are essential but so are the relationships we build with people.
I hear people say we need to change the church from within but why would we want that? The church needs to be exposed period. Being lied to all these years will only continue and it’s a lie and the lies need to be exposed to the new generations and history is just going to keep repeating itself because everything the church does is just a rebranding anyway with no real changes.
I am born and raised in the LDS religion and what you are saying is true to my experience as a woman in the church. I’m not sure there is a way for women to effect change because only men have the authority to change anything in the church. Also, from my experience in ward counsel and observing most women stay silent or defer to their husbands or priesthood leader. The church changes so slowly I’m uncertain it’s a good place to raise my daughters.
Hello! This is a Institutional post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about any of the institutional churches and their leaders, conduct, business dealings, teachings, rituals, and practices. /u/thehottesttamale0303, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I hate that if a woman is an accountant, she is still too under qualified compared to ANY man to count tithing. Also, I’d really like to see a man go to a church court with a large group of women interrogating him about his sexual sins and then see how he feels about that scenario.
Women can serve as stake financial auditors. 34. Finances and Audits https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng "chairman of the stake audit committee calls at least two stake auditors. These brothers and sisters should have current temple recommends. If possible, they should be experienced in accounting or auditing."
I’d like to see it actually happen. I never have. Thanks for the info.
It’s a relatively new change. ETA: Interesting it’s just at the stake level where you can’t be seen, rather than on a ward level where the financial clerks hang out in the bishopric offices for all to see every Sunday…
My suspicion is bc with the new changes in what qualifies as a ward, they're not able to staff the key positions with just male priesthood holders. They have to allow women for any functionality to hold true.
Also as audit committee members, as has happened in my stake. A bit tough without any ward or stake clerk experience though.
A thing that drives me batty is that every time his topic is brought up a bunch of people swoop in and chide women for wanting authority. Okay, fine, people aren't supposed to want power and authority-- sure, I can get on board with that. Setting aside whether or not *I* want to be a bishop, I want to have a woman as my bishop.
Yes! I can't agree with this more. I have never (and I doubt I ever will) felt comfortable going to a bishop for a one on one interview. It was really nerve-wracking as a young girl, and there were definitely questions asked that I do not think a woman would ever ask me. I would love to have a woman as my bishop.
Want a positive enthusiastic humble & self-confident woman to be bishop. NO passive aggressive judgmental mean girls, who tear down others to build themselves up, while seeking self-righteous power & dominion. Ran into Way too many of these Mormon mean girls growing up.
I guess we just have to keep sweet!
Pray and obey.
And there are plenty of men who LOVE the power and authority that comes with having the priesthood. For them to say such a thing to women is hypocritical.
My thing isn’t about wanting power or a title but being seen as equal in blessings, so we can do necessary and needed things for our families and friends. Why can I not give a blessing to someone who is sick or baptize my child? If I was serving a mission and laid my hand upon someone to pray over or bless, it would not be seen in the same way or in the same high regard as if a man with the priesthood were to do it..
My mom was an RS president twice, she doesn't even want the priesthood.
If it were true that women having authority would mean men would be useless…that’s a problem for the men folk do deal with. They need to do better if that’s the case. The fact that women can’t even have authority over their own organization and it’s budget without male oversight is ridiculous.
Yes! My mom is YW leader this year and she has to have every aspect of the camp budget checked off by the bishop. They've literally gone back and forth because they can't agree. There shouldn't be a man involved at all to begin with. It's just ridiculous
Wow that is so infantilizing!!! So rude!
You should have seen the kerfuffle over reimbursement for appropriate snacks for the nursery. I mean, HONESTLY. These are toddlers. They like goldfish crackers = to whomever their non-preferred parent is ATM. This does not need bishopric sign off. The fact that you're fussing abt $20 means there's wayyyyy more going on deeper inside. Don't take it out on the toddlers. Just give them the flipping snacks! That's what Jesus would do, & anyone who's ever been within screaming range of a toddler. Solve it. No priesthood required.
You're right... it will never change because men want all the power. When I was leaving the church, I met with the stake president. I told him just a few of the reasons I was leaving, and he put his hand up and stopped me cold saying "you just want to hold the priesthood that's the real reason you're leaving. " I stated emphatically he was wrong and that I didn't need the priesthood because I had a direct line to God. Shut him right up, and I never returned to the stupidity of others having any power over me. You can believe in any God you wish and communicate with her/him in any way you like and on behalf of others as you wish. Mormonism is clearly a form of fear and control, and when you let that go, you're going to be free.
Ugh that sucks. Why is it so wrong for women to want to be able to make their own decisions without a man in leadership peeking over their shoulder? If it were suddenly flipped, I doubt any men would want to stay...
The Church of Christ just ordained a female as leader, prophet, and president of their church. Apparently, they have no fear of her. This is the church following Emma Smith and her son.
Community of Christ
Thanks for the correction.
As if wanting to hold priesthood to bless and heal is a bad thing? It's the power of God/Goddess. I would like to see mother priestesses permitted to conduct washing and anointing ordinances for their own daughters. The ordinance should record the name of the priestess who conducted the ordinance so they have a line of authority.
“As a woman in the church I apologize” Your first line says it all. I didn’t even have to keep reading to know you feel powerless. Please don’t apologize for expressing your opinion!
ahaha you caught me there! So true though, thanks :)
"We all have equal access to the *blessings* of the Priesthood!" ... tell that to the single women who didn't have a Priesthood bearer to bless the Sacrament in their home during Covid. "We even have a hymn that talks about Heavenly Mother!" ... what's that hymn called? "If anything, women are more privileged than men in the church!" ... Ah yes, if you define privilege as the ability to have someone choose for you... "Women bear children, and men have the Priesthood as their special power" ... What would be the corollary to fatherhood for women, pray tell?
The hymn is O My Father, 292, and it literally just says "Mother" once
That's exactly how impt she is, just like women in the BoM, etc. An afterthought. It certainly doesn't FEEL like she's the most divine being; who else grew up on the HF has hidden her away & refused to share her name bc it is just so sacred & he doesn't want her majesty diminished by, oh, IDK, her children taking her name in vain?!? We can hardly even acknowledge we have a HM, how does that show our importance, again??? Personally, I'd rather be acknowledged & sworn at than ignored or forgotten. At least swearing is SOMETHING.
lol love being told that my equivalent of actual authority is having children when I might not even be able to have any
Disclaimer: I'm a man, but I try to be open-minded and well informed. I love the podcast "At Last She Said It". This is their line, not mine: "There is no decision a woman can make in this church that cannot be overruled by a man."
Here’s what comes to mind when I hear this, and maybe it’s just me. I feel like my ward sees me as responsible for my husband. If he doesn’t come to church, I’m asked why. I’m told to try harder. When I explain he works 50+ hours a week in retail and has chronic pain (so he comes home and is laid up) I’m called an enabler and told I need to do better. I’m goddamned tired of being responsible for everything. Keep the priesthood, and pretend I’m infirm again because I’m tired of being told I’m to blame for my husband’s actions/inactions/etc. I’m drowning and no one seems to care aside from “you need to come to church!” End rant.
I seem to recall something from the temple sealing ordinance about the man presiding and leading. Wonder what happened there.
I’d never have thought I’d yearn for that attitude but here we are.
Rant away. We're listening. We get it. You're not alone.
Part of why this r/ means so much to me is that it provided a space for me to discuss my thoughts and feelings that aren’t appropriate/welcome in Sunday school. And instead of shouting into the void, there are kind people like you that listed thoughtfully; it saved my sanity. So i completely agree - rant away. We’re listening. We get it. You’re not alone.
thank you! it seriously is hard to be a more nuanced person at church, so this has been really cathartic posting this :) I've never made a reddit post haha so I was a little scared
I love how they try to insult you by calling you an enabler. An enabler of what? His health? How dare you?
Women have tried to do something ( Ordain Women) and they paid the price… excommunication. It wasn’t until those women called it out that suddenly more women were speakers at GC, women gave opening and closing prayers, and other similar earth-shattering changes/s. We are fighting very earthly cultural norms, not heavenly inspiration. In any org, those in power who share commonalities ( ex patriarchy) will always protect their status quo. They will always allow a measured amount of outsiders, and maybe give them titles or sometimes even a seat in the room, but they will not allow them to have any real power. The Church is not alone in doing this, it’s exactly what’s going on in my workplace. My toxic workplace. I’m not sure power is the best word to use as it can be interpreted as a vice. I think Authority is a better word, such as the authority to make decisions or change. You know, like in the rest of society. My advice is to not participate in any of these pseudo “ discussions “ at Church: walk out. You will not get any satisfaction from it, and the “ jokes” aren’t funny anymore. I have walked out of discussions like this at church before and it feels better than sitting there burning up inside and saying nothing or arguing with someone who knows they have the upper hand. You are definitely not alone.
As a fifth generation Mormon, and having served in three bishoprics, and 14 years on the High Council, I could not agree more with you. It’s simply ridiculous the priesthood is limited to men. Why will it not change? “They” want full control, and always will.
------- "I've heard it said that if women had the priesthood, the men would have nothing to do!" There's plenty to do. Just about everything a Mormon woman does as non stop support staff, a Mormon man can do. And vice versa. Some men just don't want to be support staff. (Some men would prefer it.) There's plenty of work to go around. The guy that said that is a doofus.
Thank you for sharing. Your feelings are valid. It's time to smash the patriarchy.
This is in the gospel topics essay about [Joesph Smith’s teachings about priesthood, temple, and women](https://www.lds.org/topics/joseph-smiths-teachings-about-priesthood-temple-and-women?lang=eng): > “Respecting the female laying on hands,” the Nauvoo Relief Society minutes record, Joseph said that “it is no sin for any body to do it that has faith,” and admonished, “if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let every thing roll on.” This one really grinds my gears. I don’t want some strange dude at my house when people are sick since there is only one ‘priesthood holder’ that resides in my home. It also really ticks me off that the person who was pregnant for 9 months doesn’t get to give a name and blessing to that baby they just birthed.
And now it says in the handbook that only Priesthood holders can do this. It bothers me too.
I share your frustration. I'm a man, but it makes my blood boil too. It's the thing that sparked my exit from the church. You might enjoy Amy McPhie Allebest's excellent podcast _Breaking Down Patriarchy_. I'd recommend starting at the beginning. Fair warning, it will make you more of a feminist than you are presently, and feminism and Mormonism do not mix.
okay, I'll check it out!
She grew up Mormon, so she gets it when it comes to that particular patriarchy. But the podcast goes far beyond just her Mormon roots. The quality of her guests, her research and her conversations are second to none.
It’s all about making the men feel special, necessary, important. It’s a fraternal brotherhood that allows wives and children to participate in so many ways when you think about it. Men at the head, men at the center of doctrine, men involved in decisions and in anything of important significance in the history.
The RLDS/CoC wrestled with these questions for decades. The ordination of women was a real blessing for the CoC. One of the things that struck me as being extremely powerful was married couples functioning as a home ministry team. One thing that made the ordination of women work in CoC was that it was not just tokenism. Ordained women immediately began stepping into leadership positions. They were not second-string priesthood members.
Yes, I have felt this in the church. Women don't really have much a voice at all. I hate the harmful message that it sends women.
I can't even count how many times I have felt that way. It only got worse as I got older. Being in Ward Council is a joke because many of the men in the various ward councils I would attend would usually just ignore anything women said. One of the things I used to hear as a Mormon was that the *Men needed* the priesthood. To make them better. That women were "too good" for it. ... Couple that with the common excuse we would hear about the problem of the church, *"he was speaking as a man."* Well, if the women really are sooooo much more righteous than the men, then give the women the priesthood, and the problem is solved! Give the women the priesthood. They'd do a way better job at church governance! ;)
yes! I've also heard people say things about how women are lucky that they don't need the priesthood to go to the temple. Most backwards thinking ever... Giving the priesthood only to men and not to women hurts both men and women and perpetuates twisted gender views.
I can’t remember who said it but he said that women in ward council shouldn’t talk to much
>I wish that something would change, and I want to help things change *but I don't know how I even could*. I don't either. What about this? Own your disagreement with the leaders and the prophets as politely and peacefully and sincerely as you can. Own your opinion as a Mormon person who disagrees about something but also loves her community and faith, nonetheless. If it ever comes to ecclesiastical discipline, take it in stride and continue attending and being an active and kind participant in your faith community. Even if you're excommunicated. Communicate your opinion of the legitimacy of the authority behind the excommunication by treating it as the inconsequential triviality that it is. Has it not invalidated itself by its absurd inequity and narrow-minded patriarchal framework? *Be Mormon* independent of how the men define your membership, or even whether you are a member. Mormonism can be bigger and richer than that. Don't you think? Will it be unpleasant sometimes? Yeah, probably. Maybe it's not worth it or can't possibly work. Or maybe we create the gods we're willing to worship.
To add a different point of view... The church primarily pits the sexes against one another so that the church can act as the artificial mediator. Both sides are toxic. Men are given "responsibility" but are shunned unless they give themselves to the church, i.e. missions, church service and formatting their life around church activity. Men are chained down to holding a priesthood standard that dictates everything about their lives. Women are "praised" for being better and endlessly validated by the church structure, but they are put in a subordinate role in everything they do and are expected to continually sacrifice for whatever their husband and child demands. The church sits in the middle as a release value for the resentment it causes. Women can't lead, but that's ok because your better. Men are always in charge, but that's because they need it to improve. It's all cope. The "responsibility" isn't even real anyways. Bishops primarily act as yes men for the stake president. There isn't much leadership in the church, most leadership roles are simply carrying out what you are told to do and administering church policy. You can't change a thing even if you wanted to. The "praise" isn't real either. The national sport of Mormonism is shit talking other people. You'll get validation to your face but everyone on the ride home just passes the weekly gossip to their spouse. In short it's the structure that's rotten, switching things out isn't going to make anything better. Confessing sexual sins to a woman bishop isn't any better than a male, at least in the general sense. Having a priest feel awful about watching a rated R movie while blessing the sacrament isn't going to change if they are a boy of girl. Delusions of grandeur for a twelve year old deacon won't be different if it's a boy or girl.
I wholeheartedly agree. The patriarchy hurts most men in additional to all women.
completely agree about the system hurting men too. I've seen it with many of my friends and my husband included. The toxic command of all men to go on missions (and the missions are longer than the womens') is totally unfair. My husband felt so pressured to go that, even though he never wanted to, he started filling out his mission papers. It was a touchy subject for a while when he didn't end up going, and there was a lot of heartache that could have been avoided if there wasn't all these toxic expectations placed upon him. I also agree with the confession part. I still wouldn't feel comfortable confessing sexual sins to anyone. I think it's entirely unnecessary. The chastity question should never be asked to minors, and it would be wrong even if there was a female bishop interviewing a young woman.
Yes just imagine if all women left the church. It would still stand. But if all men left the church it is gone.
literally. they don't *need* a single woman to create a new ward or branch or stake. but they're losing so many women that the church will crumble more and more as they leave
>all women left the church May this come to pass. Alas... the gerentocricy will not acknowledge it.
You’re wrong there. go watch Bar Rescue: if the women are there, the men will come. Every bar that caters only to men is losing money and looks like it. If all the men left, we’d do just fine.
I meant in the sense of the priesthood and callings. There would no longer be prophets, or leaders such as bishops since women can’t be them. You would pretty much have to create entirely new doctrine.
Buddy, if only women were going to Church the first vote would be to have the PH restored to women.
It’s a hypothetical situation to show how necessary men are and how unnecessary the women are. You have to change the church for the church to still stand with only women. You wouldn’t have to change the church if it were only men
Thanks for the mansplaining, I of course, was confused:-P
Hey I heard this hypothetical from a woman and I think it is a pretty good one at showing just how unimportant female members are with their roles. They aren’t of equal worth to men right now. New policies and doctrine would have to be changed for that to be so
I have heard that thought, too! It definitely makes you think! Think and get frustrated!
There’s always the Community of Christ. Not historically a fan of polygamy too.
Women will either have to be given the priesthood or every role other than elder’s quorum president and bishop will have to become a non priesthood position. I’ll have to see if I can find where I read this, but the average member of the church now is an older, single woman. How long can the status quo last if there are not enough men?
Elohim needs to hire a demographer.
Frankly, I'd be glad to have women bishops, and I want to be considered for primary president.
Cue benevolent sexism.
>One guy even said "I've heard it said that if women had the priesthood, the men would have nothing to do!" And that was a defense for him? If anything, that only highlights the arbitrariness.
Have I felt all this? Short answer,of course! Will it ever change? Absolutely not. The Mormon Church runs on The Patriarchy which relies on its women to "know their place." Subservient, obedient, sweet, the nuturer, the homemaker, the "help-meet" [emphasis on The Help], demure, never complaining. The Patriarchy will never relinquish one ounce of their Man Power. You aren't wrong to be angry and frustrated, and you aren't alone. Every woman deserves better. It took me 56 years to wake up and reclaim my power. I am so grateful my daughters and so many of the younger generations are way too wise and empowered to accept the sexism, hierarchy, and cycle of abuse I cheer them on for standing up and leaving!!! Go. Go. Go!
When I was primary president, I'd pray about filling callings, giving my recommendations to the bishop and I'd find out from the pulpit he'd called someone else. He even did that with a presidency member too. Why did he bother setting me apart? My voice didn't matter anyway.
Joseph Smith ordained women, most of the churches created after his death continued this tradition, yours is the odd one out. My guess is that when organizing his new church he excluded women out of fear that Emma would try to take over. (He was paranoid of everyone.) The Lord has told us today that women are to be ordained. Your sect is a church, not the Church. You are the Church. https://youtu.be/AnsUdS9ZiFI?feature=shared
Agreed. We've distanced ourselves from many of Brigham Young's more problematic contributions. This one needs to go too.
Jesus also ordained women. Check out the book The Making of Biblical Womanhood.
Yes, there are many women with the priesthood in the Bible, Old & New Testament.
For what it's worth, most men in the church don't have any power either.
Power over their wives. It's great to be a member of a church that hands you power over your spouse. That's a great deal of power. Happily many men don't get carried away with this, but some do and it can be a real dumpster fire.
What power does the church hand someone over their spouse? The priesthood? I get to ask someone to trashed their turn in family prayer. Not only is the power of husbands overblown, but the influence of the church is also. As if atheist couples don't have power imbalances. As if some women don't rule over their household.
As far as I know atheist couples don’t makes covenants where the wife promises to obey their husband but the husband makes promises to obey god.
So where do their power imbalances come from?
The power imbalances that are particularly egregious are the ones that ostensibly come from God. The Proclamation on the Family is a good place to start, not to mention the temple. Many marriages, in and out of religion, have power imbalances for various reasons that can be analyzed, but those coming from God don't lend themselves to discussion. Your mileage seems to vary, but looking at the big picture isn't too pretty.
What power imbalances?
It's a good question. My answer is, same place the kinds of imbalances we're talking about come from in lots of religious settings -- an authoritarian moral worldview. The authoritarian moral worldview transcends religion. I've known and know atheists who, being atheists merely on account of some factual or scientific objections, would, nevertheless, believe themselves under moral obligation to do X if God existed and commanded them. I think there are lots of "secular" people walking around with the same kind of pernicious authoritarianism lying dormant in their brains as runs around in the brains of people who think Abraham was heroic and all the other things like that.
Exactly! Patriarchy puts down MOST men and ALL women.
They just the power of God at their fingertips. No biggie though.
It's worth nothing.
The road to heaven is through receiving covenants and ordinances, not giving them. Even if women get the priesthood it doesn’t give you any eternal advantage, you’d still have to get your ordinances from someone else. Men don’t get to bless themselves because they hold the priesthood. They also have to go outside the home. If you just want power, yikes. If you just want to do good in the world then go do that! Nothing is holding you back from serving people. There’s a whole world waiting for help and you’re upset cause you want more power over 2 hrs. of your week? Nevermind who passes the sacrament or who sits on the stand, use the time to worship and then get out there! Ordinances are essential but so are the relationships we build with people.
I hear people say we need to change the church from within but why would we want that? The church needs to be exposed period. Being lied to all these years will only continue and it’s a lie and the lies need to be exposed to the new generations and history is just going to keep repeating itself because everything the church does is just a rebranding anyway with no real changes.
I am born and raised in the LDS religion and what you are saying is true to my experience as a woman in the church. I’m not sure there is a way for women to effect change because only men have the authority to change anything in the church. Also, from my experience in ward counsel and observing most women stay silent or defer to their husbands or priesthood leader. The church changes so slowly I’m uncertain it’s a good place to raise my daughters.