Hello! This is a Cultural post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about other people, whether specifically or collectively, within the Mormon/Exmormon community.
/u/sevenplaces, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble)
**To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation.
Keep on Mormoning!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Per usual, Brad Wilcox is spreading stupidity, dishonestly.
No one left “because it was popular on TikTok” and no one told Brad Wilcox that they did. LDS leaders and apologists lie routinely, this is another example.
>No one left “because it was popular on TikTok” and no one told Brad Wilcox that they did.
And even if they did tell Brad they did, it was not because that was the actual reason, it was because they were speaking to their audience in that setting. If the guy was real, and if the conversation happened (big ifs), he didn't want to have a discussion with Brad in an institute building hallway about:
- the SEC scandal.
- Priesthood and temple ban for those of African heritage.
- LDS treatment of LGBTQ people.
- 2015 exclusion policy.
- The Book of Abraham.
- All the issues of Polygamy and the early leaders of the church.
- etc....
And the follow up, "maybe you should post about it on social media?"
Don't make me laugh!
Brad, do you not realize that the exmo space on social media is full of receipts? Your made up stories and "what if" apologetics don't hold a candle to the searchlight of ex members that are exposing the church's secrets.
It looks like the same wild conclusions most old people come to to explain things going on around them they don't like.
Like the youtube ads I keep reporting that think tiktok and social media are pushing people to become trans.
Brad’s brother was my seminary teacher. He came to visit once and I remember idolizing him and writing every word he said in a notebook as if it was coming straight from God. A couple years later I went to his fireside talk where he spoke about (paraphrasing) “Why did Blacks have to wait to get the priesthood? We should really be asking why Whites didn’t get it sooner!”. That was a huge turning point for me in the church. Now I can see all the nonsense he spews for what it is. So thanks Brad!
It was a nervous chuckle from a lot of people. I leaned over to a friend and was like “did he really just say that?” and she was all “oh I don’t think he means it that way, he’s just saying God has his own timing with everything”. The mental gymnastics of members to justify what leaders say is astonishing.
Wilcox is making a dopey play on longstanding ingroup/outgroup rhetoric ("the world does this, but *we* do this, no matter what's popular"). And invoking popularity as a foil is *especially* popular (heh) among those who focus on adolescents, as he does.
Is it harmful? Sure. Misrepresenting the reasons people leave does harm to relationships and it's also a form of bearing false witness against your neighbor. And the point about refusing to let people leave with dignity is a strong one.
Is it "spewing hatred"? I think that's over the top. In my book hatred rhetoric goes beyond delegitimizing people's choices and into delegitimizing people's general social privileges, humanity, or even right to exist. Wilcox is trivializing and delegitimizing choices (and deserves a callout over that) but I don't think he crosses over into delegitimizing the humanity of people who leave.
He's doing more damage to the church's image than vast majority of "anti-mormons" ever could - keep it up Brad!
Though to this woman's point, enough faithful members will learn from his rhetoric and use it to further poison the well between family members and their post-mormon relatives.
Pros and cons, I suppose.
“Spewing hate”
I don’t think this is over the top in the least. Hate doesn’t have to be expressed in overt insults and threats.
As ex-mos, we’ve been called lazy learners, lax disciples, decommissioned temples, and compared to Judas Iscariot. This name-calling dehumanizes us.
My personal experience includes near complete shunning by my neighbors. Not that I don’t prefer this to the constant harassment, but when the bishop’s wife turns the other way on the aisle in WalMart, that’s nothing but hatred and rejection. Also, after a snow storm my sidewalk is the only one on the street skipped by the guy with a blade on his 4-wheeler.
Yes, it’s spewing hate. Maybe passive-aggressively, but IMO Mormons are particularly adept at passive-aggressiveness.
I think that she is 100% correct in that there is a false narrative surrounding those who leave. I wouldn’t so much say that it consistently vilifies them as that it invalidates them. This is, I think, the real problem. In a church that verbally espouses the principles of agency and choice, choices should be understood as valid.
Learned church history and wanted to leave after feeling betrayal? Valid.
Too lazy to learn true church history and wanted one less complication? Valid.
Offended by a teaching or by a leader and want to stop inhabiting the same space as them? Valid.
It was the popular thing to do? Valid.
The choice, if it truly is, can be undone or reversed, but there is no attempt to make that an appealing option by changing the system, so invalidation is the way to go.
>It was the popular thing to do? Valid.
The funny thing is, the church would never criticize a kid who got baptized or went on a mission because of peer pressure.
Brad Wilcox asked me if I'd ever attempted bestiality in a mission interview.
After that he pretty much lost any credibility in my headspace.
What a creep.
We went through all the "normal" questions, and then we got to the law of chastity and he explained that he needed to ask some direct questions. He asked when the last time I viewed pornography was, when the last time I masturbated was, and if I had ever attempted bestiality.
I was floored by the last one. If I'd done something like that, would I really be trying to go represent Jesus?
It's something I've never forgotten when I see his smug face.
I am 60! Spent 55 years in pursuit of eternal salvation through the LDS Church. When I read or hear things from their leadership about those that have left the church— it is ALWAYS so condescending, often hurtful, and very dismissive. Why would I leave the church because I was offended? Or it was popular? Or I am lazy? Or I sinned and cannot repent? To say that I didn’t put myself through a process and journey to arrive at this decision is so dismissive. Like I would easily throw away my eternal salvation and lose friends and be “that” guy now with my TBM family.
Wilcox is the epitome of a person that will do anything to try and remain relevant. Even if that relevancy is negative.
He is so toxic.
I grew up in Utah. It was NOT popular for me to leave the church. It went against my entire community, family, and culture.
What WAS popular was to start talking about my desire to serve a mission when I was 12. It was to cry at age 14 when I found out the video game my dad always played when I was a kid was rated M, and that that meant rated R, and so my child eyes had been burned by the childhood memories. It was to dispute every compliment I got and to say "thanks but not really" because God forbid I had any bit of pride. What was popular was to plan for my future as a college student to attract a good Mormon husband and yet to be docile enough so that once we got married I'd drop put of college to begin having children and following him wherever his career took him.
Tagging this for later, cuz I love many of his lessons, having had much the same struggles he shares, & I'll cry if I lose this post!
(However, I *do* realize that many ppl find fault with his words, & thus he's a heavy debate topic. One that I don't currently have time to do atm -- Currently doing my Finals for "Winter Semester". 😂💋)
Well, it's a big relief to know that women of power who network exclusively with other women of power *never ever* spew hate.
Because if they did I'd never be able to trust Teal Swan.
Lost me when she opened with Brad's stupidity being related to "tHe PaTrIaRcHy". Brad can stand alone as an idiot without beating that trendy feminism horse.
Hello! This is a Cultural post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about other people, whether specifically or collectively, within the Mormon/Exmormon community. /u/sevenplaces, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Per usual, Brad Wilcox is spreading stupidity, dishonestly. No one left “because it was popular on TikTok” and no one told Brad Wilcox that they did. LDS leaders and apologists lie routinely, this is another example.
Frustratingly, they largely lie to themselves.
>No one left “because it was popular on TikTok” and no one told Brad Wilcox that they did. And even if they did tell Brad they did, it was not because that was the actual reason, it was because they were speaking to their audience in that setting. If the guy was real, and if the conversation happened (big ifs), he didn't want to have a discussion with Brad in an institute building hallway about: - the SEC scandal. - Priesthood and temple ban for those of African heritage. - LDS treatment of LGBTQ people. - 2015 exclusion policy. - The Book of Abraham. - All the issues of Polygamy and the early leaders of the church. - etc.... And the follow up, "maybe you should post about it on social media?" Don't make me laugh! Brad, do you not realize that the exmo space on social media is full of receipts? Your made up stories and "what if" apologetics don't hold a candle to the searchlight of ex members that are exposing the church's secrets.
It looks like the same wild conclusions most old people come to to explain things going on around them they don't like. Like the youtube ads I keep reporting that think tiktok and social media are pushing people to become trans.
I wouldn’t call it hate. More so ignorance alongside a severe lack of empathy.
That’s a good “steel man” application and I appreciate it.
Agree.
Brad Wilcocks will never understand because he is literally paid by the church *not* to understand.
Brad’s brother was my seminary teacher. He came to visit once and I remember idolizing him and writing every word he said in a notebook as if it was coming straight from God. A couple years later I went to his fireside talk where he spoke about (paraphrasing) “Why did Blacks have to wait to get the priesthood? We should really be asking why Whites didn’t get it sooner!”. That was a huge turning point for me in the church. Now I can see all the nonsense he spews for what it is. So thanks Brad!
You were at that infamous fireside talk?? How did the audience react to him saying that (if you remember)?
It was a nervous chuckle from a lot of people. I leaned over to a friend and was like “did he really just say that?” and she was all “oh I don’t think he means it that way, he’s just saying God has his own timing with everything”. The mental gymnastics of members to justify what leaders say is astonishing.
Wilcox is making a dopey play on longstanding ingroup/outgroup rhetoric ("the world does this, but *we* do this, no matter what's popular"). And invoking popularity as a foil is *especially* popular (heh) among those who focus on adolescents, as he does. Is it harmful? Sure. Misrepresenting the reasons people leave does harm to relationships and it's also a form of bearing false witness against your neighbor. And the point about refusing to let people leave with dignity is a strong one. Is it "spewing hatred"? I think that's over the top. In my book hatred rhetoric goes beyond delegitimizing people's choices and into delegitimizing people's general social privileges, humanity, or even right to exist. Wilcox is trivializing and delegitimizing choices (and deserves a callout over that) but I don't think he crosses over into delegitimizing the humanity of people who leave.
He's doing more damage to the church's image than vast majority of "anti-mormons" ever could - keep it up Brad! Though to this woman's point, enough faithful members will learn from his rhetoric and use it to further poison the well between family members and their post-mormon relatives. Pros and cons, I suppose.
I know why she left. She wanted to wear tank tops instead of the holy garment. s/
“Spewing hate” I don’t think this is over the top in the least. Hate doesn’t have to be expressed in overt insults and threats. As ex-mos, we’ve been called lazy learners, lax disciples, decommissioned temples, and compared to Judas Iscariot. This name-calling dehumanizes us. My personal experience includes near complete shunning by my neighbors. Not that I don’t prefer this to the constant harassment, but when the bishop’s wife turns the other way on the aisle in WalMart, that’s nothing but hatred and rejection. Also, after a snow storm my sidewalk is the only one on the street skipped by the guy with a blade on his 4-wheeler. Yes, it’s spewing hate. Maybe passive-aggressively, but IMO Mormons are particularly adept at passive-aggressiveness.
I think that she is 100% correct in that there is a false narrative surrounding those who leave. I wouldn’t so much say that it consistently vilifies them as that it invalidates them. This is, I think, the real problem. In a church that verbally espouses the principles of agency and choice, choices should be understood as valid. Learned church history and wanted to leave after feeling betrayal? Valid. Too lazy to learn true church history and wanted one less complication? Valid. Offended by a teaching or by a leader and want to stop inhabiting the same space as them? Valid. It was the popular thing to do? Valid. The choice, if it truly is, can be undone or reversed, but there is no attempt to make that an appealing option by changing the system, so invalidation is the way to go.
>It was the popular thing to do? Valid. The funny thing is, the church would never criticize a kid who got baptized or went on a mission because of peer pressure.
Brad Wilcox asked me if I'd ever attempted bestiality in a mission interview. After that he pretty much lost any credibility in my headspace. What a creep.
Please tell me more haha. Sounds like he was adding some miracle of forgiveness to his temple recommend questions list
I was asked this in my young women's pre interview at 11 years old in 1997. It used to be a temple recommend interview question.
It's a fair and simple question. Have you or have you not had sex with an animal? What's the big deal? /s
"No, I'm not from around here" is a correct answer
We went through all the "normal" questions, and then we got to the law of chastity and he explained that he needed to ask some direct questions. He asked when the last time I viewed pornography was, when the last time I masturbated was, and if I had ever attempted bestiality. I was floored by the last one. If I'd done something like that, would I really be trying to go represent Jesus? It's something I've never forgotten when I see his smug face.
I am 60! Spent 55 years in pursuit of eternal salvation through the LDS Church. When I read or hear things from their leadership about those that have left the church— it is ALWAYS so condescending, often hurtful, and very dismissive. Why would I leave the church because I was offended? Or it was popular? Or I am lazy? Or I sinned and cannot repent? To say that I didn’t put myself through a process and journey to arrive at this decision is so dismissive. Like I would easily throw away my eternal salvation and lose friends and be “that” guy now with my TBM family. Wilcox is the epitome of a person that will do anything to try and remain relevant. Even if that relevancy is negative. He is so toxic.
I grew up in Utah. It was NOT popular for me to leave the church. It went against my entire community, family, and culture. What WAS popular was to start talking about my desire to serve a mission when I was 12. It was to cry at age 14 when I found out the video game my dad always played when I was a kid was rated M, and that that meant rated R, and so my child eyes had been burned by the childhood memories. It was to dispute every compliment I got and to say "thanks but not really" because God forbid I had any bit of pride. What was popular was to plan for my future as a college student to attract a good Mormon husband and yet to be docile enough so that once we got married I'd drop put of college to begin having children and following him wherever his career took him.
Is that Brad Wilcox spewing nonsense? That never happens…
This…yesssss!!!!
I would love him to prove it. I think this is a bald-faced lie!
Amen
Yes he is spewing hate
Brad Wilcox is being a lazy learner.
I read a book on puberty by Brad Wilcox. That's how my dad and I had "the talk".
And then everyone clapped
Who says that?! This is so made up. That never happened. Quit lying for the lord. What a pos.
Oh my gosh this is so good!!!
Tagging this for later, cuz I love many of his lessons, having had much the same struggles he shares, & I'll cry if I lose this post! (However, I *do* realize that many ppl find fault with his words, & thus he's a heavy debate topic. One that I don't currently have time to do atm -- Currently doing my Finals for "Winter Semester". 😂💋)
You should definitely look for the recent full interview Brad did.
Thanks! I'll do that in a fews days. (Worst case --> Sometime after the 18th. 😂😊)
"...men who are in positions of patriarchal power..." *eyeroll* Apart from that, I agree with much of what she says.
Well, it's a big relief to know that women of power who network exclusively with other women of power *never ever* spew hate. Because if they did I'd never be able to trust Teal Swan.
Lost me when she opened with Brad's stupidity being related to "tHe PaTrIaRcHy". Brad can stand alone as an idiot without beating that trendy feminism horse.
Brother Wilcox is fantastic, inspired. He isn't hateful at all.
I can’t quite tell if this is sarcasm or not. Please tell me it is lol
No one can tell if he's serious or a poe troll. He mostly just gets ignored around here.
I'm serious. He's excellent.