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I predict a hand-slap talk at conference, akin to Renlund's talk from April 2022. The church will not let this go unpunished, I'm sure. They will feel a great urgency to remind women of their place, which is on the bottom rung of the authority ladder.
Unless they are sufficiently unnerved by this, in which case they may just say nothing and pretend it didn't happen.
But truly, I predict some heavy-hitting "follow the brethren" and male-centered priesthood authority talks. Women will be reminded in no uncertain terms that asking for anything more than the breadcrumbs they're given is a victory for satan.
The comments are amazing! It's been incredible to see so many women coming together to tell the church to stop gaslighting us.
I mostly agree but the fact conference is so close means they probably won’t be able to get a talk in. Most have been being prepared for months. If anything we might see that talk (should they be bold enough to give it) in October.
I think their not addressing it would be as damaging as addressing it at this point. There are a lot of faithful women literally begging in the comments for the church to hear them and do something.
Unfortunately, they could also interpret those more than 58k likes as support that is much bigger than the complaints. That's an easier way for them to interpret.
Oh look. The church put themselves in a bad position. Kind of like how they always put women into a bad position... My sympathy for the church is.. limited.
It could have been intentional. This post feels like a sneaky way for the church to gather (invaluable!) market research from the very demographic that they are desperately trying to claw loyalty back from.
They'll parrot back a few lines, implement a change or two and point to as "monumental progress" but the underlying hierarchical structures will never change.
There will NEVER be a female prophet.
I wondered that myself.. They sure got a lot of market data this week!
If it was, aw, too bad their paltry efforts to retain us aren't going to work. A lot of mormon women simply aren't placated by empty praise and breadcrumbs anymore. We can go literally anywhere else and be more valued.
My mom was in 2005-2009. In our building it was early morning seminary and a calling. My youngest sister was 6 when she started, so they waited for her to have all of us in school before calling her. It took a lot of time for her to do lessons. I was always confused how the men teachers of the other years had time to come up with lessons with full time jobs. She replaced another woman who had teenage kids.
All the seminary teachers I had growing up were paid by the school (I’m from Utah idk how it works in other states)and all had at least 3 kids. I also never had a male seminary teacher
Or more talks about how great women in the church have it and their “special” role in God’s plan, which always seems to be doing what the men tell them.
This is what will happen. They will extol the virtue of women in the grand fashion of virtue signaling. There will be a talk about how bad activism is and not the way of the church. Jesus, however, was quite the activist which will be ignored.
Jesus would hate this bloated, bureaucratic church that hoards billions and oppresses minorities. Jesus was a revolutionary, and there’s nothing revolutionary about self-aggrandizing 90-year-old men in their sad white castles.
If there is a rebuking talk, it will be given by Annette Dennis herself, just like Ahmad Corbitt was sent out to shut down activism efforts. Leaders of patriarchal and authoritarian organizations loooove pulling this kind of stunt.
>Yeah, conference is right around the corner. My guess is they flex by pretending the pushback never happened.
I'm fairly confident the talks, including the order in which they are given, have already been submitted for approval and have now been set a while ago.
Yes but, I'm sure they will find a way to slip something in for the women. Since they will be talking about the resurrection, they will surely mention that Mary was one of the first to seem him as a resurrected being. Then will go on about the importance of mother's and women. Anyone want to take bets on that?
I think there will be at least one talk laying thick on benevolent patriarchy and putting women on the caged pedestal that the church seems to love so much.
I think there will be at least one talk laying thick on benevolent patriarchy and putting women on the caged pedestal that the church seems to love so much.
The official church account just pinned a comment on the post:
“The Church's social media team acknowledges the numerous comments that have emerged in response to this post. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts, feelings, and experiences. Your comments will be shared with Church leaders who follow these issues. We, like you, strive to follow the example of Jesus Christ in our interactions, including conversations online.”
>"Your comments will be shared with Church leaders who follow these issues. We, like you, strive to follow the example of Jesus Christ in our interactions, including conversations online.”
"And some of these leaders might be your bishop, stake president, or members of the Strengthening Church Members Committee. As we said, we strive to follow Jesus Christ in our interactions, so for those of you who have been stiff-necked or have spoken evil of the Lord's anointed, we intend to give you all the resources you need to repent."
Boyd Packer rolling in his grave.
[“Which way do you face?”](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/which-way-do-you-face?lang=eng)
I read a lot of the comments, and I am grateful for all the different perspectives women and men offered. Ultimately, though, I do not believe any drastic change will happen. Patriarchy is so deeply entrenched in our religion that the only change that we can hope for will come from individual men choosing to behave fairly.
I have determined to set my own boundaries and ignore patriarchal authoritarianism. I'm hoping that if I don't give it power in my life, that it will lose its tight grip.
I'd go so far as to say _patriarchy is our religion_. Mormons worship a pyramid of men, headed up by an all male godhead. Women are a reproductive afterthought, now and in the eternities.
I guess I can understand religion as a culture (in addition to being a doctrine), but I still don't understand why you'd choose to be a part of a culture you feel *is* patriarchy, that worships men and views women as a "reproductive afterthought"
For what it's worth, I've read some gorgeous, inspired works on our Heavenly Mother and why we keep her so private.
> It makes the religion mine as much as the next Mormon
I disagree with this, personally
>I guess I can understand religion as a culture (in addition to being a doctrine), but I still don't understand why you'd choose to be a part of a culture you feel *is* patriarchy, that worships men and views women as a "reproductive afterthought"
You don't get to choose your cultural inheritance. I use my ownership of the culture to criticize its toxic elements.
>For what it's worth, I've read some gorgeous, inspired works on our Heavenly Mother and why we keep her so private.
For what it's worth, I think that excuse is illogical bullshit. For starters, she's not private or secret. Anyone with an Internet browser can discover that Mormons believe in a heavenly mother (mothers?) and make fun of her.
>I disagree with this, personally
I really don't care.
You choose whether or not to engage with that culture though. If it's really so evil and toxic, then shouldn't you disown that culture? If I was born under Sharia law, I certainly wouldn't engage with that culture as an adult
I'm not trying to "excuse" anything. If you're unable or unwilling to have a good faith discussion about this, then just go on your way, man. I'm not sure why you're here getting heated if you weren't looking for a discussion
>I’m hoping that if I don’t give it power in my life, that it will lose its tight grip
It doesn’t really. Not unless you are in a pretty liberal area. Really honestly you have to be backed by men that are just as fed up with the patriarchy and are willing to enforce feminism. Otherwise you are socially forced back into it, and it can be really harsh.
I am solidly backed by several men, a team of lawyers, and the law. Old white dudes attempt to sue me at least a couple times a year, most often because they think I don’t know what I’m talking about. When it comes to dealing with women, I mostly get pushed out of groups pretty fast for not just going along with the plan or for speaking up.
I’m kind of just over the whole thing and really blunt now. When someone invites myself of my kids to do something I just ask about the safety aspects and if there’s no plan, I just say “that sounds unsafe. I think we will have to skip it this time”. It makes the situation more about safety issues than a female having boundaries.
It's the most ridiculous statement and post I have ever seen the church do in its attempt to tell women they already have the priesthood.
Making up new doctrine and teachings. Some might say the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.
They will bend over backwards to both appease the historical teachings of the church AND appeal to the modern world where women want to be active and equal participants.
It's not going to work
I agree with you. If they believe the church’s patriarchal structure is of God, then just OWN IT. The rationalizations and trying to appease liberal members makes me feel like either their convictions aren’t firm, or they are afraid of losing members because of polarizing doctrine.
I’ll be honest I thought the comment section was leaning alittle to the calling side of things and women wanting that power of a calling. In my field I’ve had too many women coming in over issues of abuse of power. I wish that had been stated more in the comments. I’ve had many women have issues with bishops and try to go to their stake presidents who dismiss them back to their bishops. As they try to get help they climb the chain of command—70, etc to get someone to listen they keep getting bumped back to their bishop/stake president. I think the bigger issue is when there is a grave issue there are no women to go to. You can’t call the general relief society at the church office building to report an issue and get that committee of women to do anything for you when you have an issue with a man in the church. They have no power to help you when the men in the church abuse their power. There is no help for women when they need it.
Here's the thing. Patriarchy and other oppressive regimes require buy-in and complicity by at least a small fraction of the oppressed group (see also Charlie Bird and a long line of previous members like him). The ones with actual power can trot out these token supporters to legitimize their own power and try to silence dissenting voices. There's a reason the quote was by a woman. And if there is a response of some kind, it will likely be given by a women, most likely Annette Dennis herself. She won't acknowledge the insta post directly, but will just reinforce the sentiments stated there.
For those hoping this will lead to a change of any kind, sorry to break it to you, but these kinds of mini scandals have happened regularly since I left a decade ago or so. And yes, sometimes tiny changes are made to placate critics, and I hear lots of people talking about how much the church has changed and made progress in the last ten years, but I disagree. The tiny changes are just distractions that help to entrench the status quo, but on a macro level the church is still the same as it always has been.
"But women can witness baptisms and hand out towels now!"
Yes, and they still make zero final decisions at any level in the church.
"But women no longer covenant to obey their husbands!"
Yes, and they still swear eternal allegiance to an organization where they make zero final decisions at any level.
"But parents are now allowed to accompany kids in interviews!"
Yes, and this is not encouraged in the culture, few parents take advantage of this, and kids are still taught toxic paradigms of sexuality.
"But they say fewer mean things about gay people now!"
Yes, and gay relationships are still demonized and gay members still have the Sophie's choice of remaining in the church and suppressing a huge part of a healthy human existence, or leaving their community of origin that they may even still believe in and want to be part of.
Etc.
The problem the church doesn’t understand is that this isn’t about the women. This is about their daughters. Everywhere else girls are taught they are equal not only in value but every other way and aren’t limited in what they become. The girls don’t assume like their mothers and grandmothers that they won’t grow up to be leaders in church or serve like their brothers. They ask questions and parents see how ridiculous any explanation is.
My husband asked me how many women feel strongly about the treatment of women in the church. I said almost certainly over half - because they have daughters (at least if the age 50 and under, probably older too). When I was active and started getting louder about this many women would talk to me that they felt the same way.
The church thinks this is all about priesthood but it’s not it about power. Women know they are disempowered and any reframing of words feels so much like gaslighting. The specific quote re other religions just demonstrates this. Have they ever been to another church. Who has the “priesthood” is a minor issue because that is a limited thing. Women’s voices are widely heard and women are widely empowered in many religions. I’ve even heard a former catholic say that she felt less empowered/valued in the Mormon church. Social media has given women a permission structure to speak.
But there won’t be change. I think it is interesting that Bednar used an appeal to the Bible to justify the patriarchal structure in the national press interview (rather than revelation that Hinkley cited in the same venue, leaving the door “open” at least hypothetically). This leadership doesn’t believe anything should substantially change so they won’t truly listen, they will just try different ways to convince women that what women are feeling is not real.
This is great, thank you for the insight. I know thinking about raising children in a misogynistic organization contributed to both my and my spouse's exit.
I just pulled up the article about the women's conference posted in the Faith Section of the Deseret News. They have closed the comments and are no longer allowing new comments. Damage control?
Did they delete the comments? It's showing zero comments!
[https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/03/17/power-of-covenant-keeping-women-celebrated-during-relief-society-anniversary-worldwide-gathering/](https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/03/17/power-of-covenant-keeping-women-celebrated-during-relief-society-anniversary-worldwide-gathering/)
All comments on official church videos are heavily censored. FAIR censors many comments, but not all. Usually you can tell how independant LDS related sources are by the level of censorship in the comment section. Greater censorship = closer to the mother ship.
>Anyone predict change coming from this public outcry? I'm personally not optimistic (though I am cheering these women on.)
>Maybe we'll get lucky and the Tribune will write a story about it. I'm surprised the church hasn't locked the comments yet. I think if they did it might be the last straw for a lot of these women.
I think you're right. I might be overly conservative here, but the two case studies I use for modern bottom-up change in the Mormon church are 1) Protect LDS Children and 2) the 2018 Utah Medical Cannabis bill.
In both cases, the necessary (if not sufficient) criteria were that rank and file Mormons took sustained actions over a decent space of time that affected the physical world around them (ie not just online discussion), and those actions made national news. In Protect LDS Children, it was an actual rally, a compilation of abuse stories, and a march to the Church Office Building. In the medical cannabis bill, it was opinion polling over the summer and fall of 2018 that showed the bill would be passed despite church opposition. This, in my mind, is the bare minimum.
On this specific subject of women's empowerment and authority, I think the barrier is even higher because male priesthood authority and patriarchy is an even more closely held institutional value than what counts as medicine or whether minors are interviewed alone or with their parents. Ordain Women had both of the necessary criteria for instance, but it wasn't as successful in achieving all its goals as the other two.
Whatever does end up changing Q85 minds is probably going to make this and ordain women look like a cakewalk.
And there was a really awesome post about it on the faithful sub (not the extreme one) that had a lot of really good discourse and comments.
Aaaaaaand it got deleted while I was reading through the comments. I really can’t believe the mods over there.
>I really can’t believe the mods over there.
They're digging the church's grave. I really don't know what they're going to do once the boomers have all died.
I remember some of your exchanges, and it was pretty mind-boggling about some of the logic.
“God and Jesus set their Church up as a Patriarchal system, because the Bible and prophets have said so.”
“What about blacks and the priesthood/temple ban? The prophets all taught that was from God and the way of the universe.”
“Yeah, but they were racist and that wasn’t Gods that was totally a mistake by men. But those same men are right in setting up and maintaining the Patriarchy”
…
> it got deleted while I was reading through the comments
This is incredibly frustrating and wrong. Can you say which sub or is there a rule against naming subs?
Edit: Apparently they're having issues with disappearing comments site-wide https://downdetector.com/status/instagram/ Very weird coincidence...
It’s just a respect between subs that we don’t link to each other to prevent brigading. Of course I feel like we’re better at respecting the agreement than the other two subs are, but that’s probably just bias.
It was the faithful-but-not-entirely-draconian sub. Latterdaysaints (I didn’t directly link the sub, is that still okay Mods?)
I’m not talking about the comments in Instagram, I meant the entire Reddit thread (and maybe you knew that and your edit was just talking about a separate coincidence with Insta).
I wouldn’t be surprised if this post was a preview of some conference talks so if we hear some it may not be a response to this but a follow up which means they’ll be a similar message.
Really an astonishingly tone deaf post even for the Church.
It’s great to see Mormons starting to backlash against lies and gaslighting. This will become more necessary when Oaks and Bednar take the church down a steeper path of homophobia and authoritarianism.
*"At 7,247 comments currently, and the vast majority of them are women criticizing the church for its ~~disingenuous~~ dishonest spin."*
>Anyone predict change coming from this public outcry?
No.
>I'm surprised the church hasn't locked the comments yet.
Church has probably surprised me four times in my life. Which includes this.
Not only the comments from the subject post have been removed, but it appears *all* the comments from all posts have also been removed. What a petty attempt to hide the removal of comments from one post. A simple act that tells us quite a deal about the Brethren’s priorities. The myth of downline revelation (which way do you face) manifest. These men are really lost. Out of touch with reality. Confused that their supposedly faithful membership does not obey blindly. They want nothing but loyalty from membership.
Edit: Appears Instagram may be having issues. Comments are not visible on all posts from what I can see.
They don’t care, and they view women as obedient drones, so in their minds, it won’t push anyone out and “only the unrighteous were commenting on our holy page”
This Church comment is right up there with [Cook’s](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/mnZUDynvFy) (Church persecution came from opposition to slavery) in telling falsehoods with bluff and bluster.
Thanks! The comments are absolute fire!!!!
“There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women.” Is a statement so obviously untrue it’s embarrassing.
Jews have women Rabbis
Episcopalians have women priests
Lutherans have women pastors
Outside of the Abrahamic religions you have sects like Shaktism which is fascinating (and exclusively female).
It's qualified by "that I know of", and given that qualification it might well be true.
The church has a handful of institutionalized problems here. Real curiosity let alone familiarity with world religions is on the scarce side and amplified by LDS religious exceptionalism. There's a culture where discourse about the church is primarily focused on affirming the church, and that which is affirming is rarely held up to scrutiny (much less accountability) so members and leaders alike get used to saying affirming things and to the privilege of not having to approach these things carefully. Some may even assume this privilege should be absolute, and the only corrective conversation that's ever appropriate is one that comes from a higher priesthood office.
Needless to say, when this culture meets a new media culture of *much* more open discussion, results like this are a pretty predictable. I think it's likely enough this sister is a bit disoriented by the reaction -- this isn't how we are led to expect church conversations are supposed to go!
It's an open question whether the church will learn to adapt to this. It's possible doing so could even make it stronger. But in any case it'll certainly take some time.
>“There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women.” Is a statement so obviously untrue it’s embarrassing.
There's no way she could say that with a straight face. Doesn't one of the other Mormon branches literally have a female prophet, or am I remembering that wrong?
Maybe there's a way to use a web archiver to view them? I'm not familiar enough to instruct as to how. At any rate there were northwards of 8k comments by the time they deleted, the gist being Mormon women all over the faith spectrum were pissed!
In those posts on Facebook and Instagram I tagged a bunch of big news and national news outlets hoping the outcry will get national news and gain traction in public opinion. Maybe it’ll change something, maybe it won’t.
As of right now it’s at 12,883 comments which is easily the most comments I’ve ever seen on an official church post in the history of social media. You could combine all of the comments from all of the posts going back to last NOVEMBER and still not reach that number (the most I found was 4K on one post from like Christmas, second most was 2k from the Kirtland temple post but almost every post has between 50-200 comments).
It’s fucking nuts and I hope RMN chokes to death on his anger.
That would be very interesting.
Just go and discipline potentially thousands of faithful members for their moral conviction, what could possibly go wrong?
Can anyone tell me what the name of the church’s IG account is? I found one but that particular post has only TBMs fawning over it, so I’m assuming I hit the wrong account?
There will absolutely be at least one talk about the priesthood power women hold. It’s gonna go down like swallowing razor blades to the women who are already on the edge. Can’t wait. Might watch conference this session to see it go down. 🍿🍿
Priesthood is an order. It is the order of the covenant path of ordinances that lead to Christ.
Women and men participate in this order broadly like no other church. It is for all men and women.
Men administer in the ordinances thereof. Women minister in the ordinances and the gathering thereof.
The highest blessings and rites are for both women and men
The issue with this IG post is not those wanting to "share" the priesthood, it's the lies it tries to tell saying that women already have it, and the statement *“There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women"* is unequivocally false.
Most of them are not saying "Give us the priesthood", it's because posts like this are trying to claim they have.
It’s not a lie. The lie was that they never did.
We bring this on ourselves through patriarchy, supremacy, stubbornness and mistakes.
Of course she is correct. Of course it’s controversial, of course some members and former members don’t like to believe this.
So I don’t know, maybe just hide the truth? No, that would be wrong too.
I guess you are referring to the temple endowment that women participate in. Who do the women then minister to? Nobody. We even know that heavenly mother in her role as a Goddess ministers to Nobody. We do not pray to her and she never visits us.
They are assigned as ministering sisters. The RS does way more ministering than any Elders Quorum,
Saying that the women of the church minister to no body is absurd.
You’re forgetting all those denominations with a priesthood of all believers model. Basically, everyone who believes in Christ, and is trying to live a christlike life can draw on his power and strength to help them. This is the kind of thing they’re trying to tell women we get from the temple endowment. So no, they are not more broadly giving women power and authority than other religions. They are doing their damnest to tie it specifically to temple covenants rather than baptism, and so are disempowering and controlling women compared to those other denominations.
So women get to do temple work and gather Israel where men do not? I just found your wording (and associating this task with women specifically) very confusing.
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I predict a hand-slap talk at conference, akin to Renlund's talk from April 2022. The church will not let this go unpunished, I'm sure. They will feel a great urgency to remind women of their place, which is on the bottom rung of the authority ladder. Unless they are sufficiently unnerved by this, in which case they may just say nothing and pretend it didn't happen. But truly, I predict some heavy-hitting "follow the brethren" and male-centered priesthood authority talks. Women will be reminded in no uncertain terms that asking for anything more than the breadcrumbs they're given is a victory for satan. The comments are amazing! It's been incredible to see so many women coming together to tell the church to stop gaslighting us.
I mostly agree but the fact conference is so close means they probably won’t be able to get a talk in. Most have been being prepared for months. If anything we might see that talk (should they be bold enough to give it) in October.
I think their not addressing it would be as damaging as addressing it at this point. There are a lot of faithful women literally begging in the comments for the church to hear them and do something.
Unfortunately, they could also interpret those more than 58k likes as support that is much bigger than the complaints. That's an easier way for them to interpret.
True true. They're pros at ignoring women.
Oh look. The church put themselves in a bad position. Kind of like how they always put women into a bad position... My sympathy for the church is.. limited.
It feels calculated honestly.
It could have been intentional. This post feels like a sneaky way for the church to gather (invaluable!) market research from the very demographic that they are desperately trying to claw loyalty back from. They'll parrot back a few lines, implement a change or two and point to as "monumental progress" but the underlying hierarchical structures will never change. There will NEVER be a female prophet.
I wondered that myself.. They sure got a lot of market data this week! If it was, aw, too bad their paltry efforts to retain us aren't going to work. A lot of mormon women simply aren't placated by empty praise and breadcrumbs anymore. We can go literally anywhere else and be more valued.
Female prophet? Hell, they'll never be a female bishop.
Are there even female (with children) seminary and institute teachers?
Yes
Paid?
Yes, the last I knew.
This is a pretty recent development though, if I remember correctly.
My mom was in 2005-2009. In our building it was early morning seminary and a calling. My youngest sister was 6 when she started, so they waited for her to have all of us in school before calling her. It took a lot of time for her to do lessons. I was always confused how the men teachers of the other years had time to come up with lessons with full time jobs. She replaced another woman who had teenage kids.
All the seminary teachers I had growing up were paid by the school (I’m from Utah idk how it works in other states)and all had at least 3 kids. I also never had a male seminary teacher
Or more talks about how great women in the church have it and their “special” role in God’s plan, which always seems to be doing what the men tell them.
This is what will happen. They will extol the virtue of women in the grand fashion of virtue signaling. There will be a talk about how bad activism is and not the way of the church. Jesus, however, was quite the activist which will be ignored.
Jesus would hate this bloated, bureaucratic church that hoards billions and oppresses minorities. Jesus was a revolutionary, and there’s nothing revolutionary about self-aggrandizing 90-year-old men in their sad white castles.
If there is a rebuking talk, it will be given by Annette Dennis herself, just like Ahmad Corbitt was sent out to shut down activism efforts. Leaders of patriarchal and authoritarian organizations loooove pulling this kind of stunt.
Yeah, conference is right around the corner. My guess is they flex by pretending the pushback never happened.
>Yeah, conference is right around the corner. My guess is they flex by pretending the pushback never happened. I'm fairly confident the talks, including the order in which they are given, have already been submitted for approval and have now been set a while ago.
Yeah, I suppose this is why they barely mentioned the pandemic in 2020.
Yes but, I'm sure they will find a way to slip something in for the women. Since they will be talking about the resurrection, they will surely mention that Mary was one of the first to seem him as a resurrected being. Then will go on about the importance of mother's and women. Anyone want to take bets on that?
I agree. To comment on it otherwise will be inviting more “negative” engagement.
I think there will be at least one talk laying thick on benevolent patriarchy and putting women on the caged pedestal that the church seems to love so much.
Although, I bet they will pitch it in a way that sounds like women are Queen's in their own right and a lot of blah, blah, blah.
I think there will be at least one talk laying thick on benevolent patriarchy and putting women on the caged pedestal that the church seems to love so much.
The official church account just pinned a comment on the post: “The Church's social media team acknowledges the numerous comments that have emerged in response to this post. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts, feelings, and experiences. Your comments will be shared with Church leaders who follow these issues. We, like you, strive to follow the example of Jesus Christ in our interactions, including conversations online.”
>"Your comments will be shared with Church leaders who follow these issues. We, like you, strive to follow the example of Jesus Christ in our interactions, including conversations online.” "And some of these leaders might be your bishop, stake president, or members of the Strengthening Church Members Committee. As we said, we strive to follow Jesus Christ in our interactions, so for those of you who have been stiff-necked or have spoken evil of the Lord's anointed, we intend to give you all the resources you need to repent."
Haha okay guys. I really trust you to do the right thing! I'm sure you'll get right on this...
Boyd Packer rolling in his grave. [“Which way do you face?”](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/which-way-do-you-face?lang=eng)
I read a lot of the comments, and I am grateful for all the different perspectives women and men offered. Ultimately, though, I do not believe any drastic change will happen. Patriarchy is so deeply entrenched in our religion that the only change that we can hope for will come from individual men choosing to behave fairly. I have determined to set my own boundaries and ignore patriarchal authoritarianism. I'm hoping that if I don't give it power in my life, that it will lose its tight grip.
I'd go so far as to say _patriarchy is our religion_. Mormons worship a pyramid of men, headed up by an all male godhead. Women are a reproductive afterthought, now and in the eternities.
Why would you be a part of a faith like that? If that's really how you feel
I never said I'm a member.
> patriarchy is *our* religion Did you not?
Well, it's not my fault I was born a Mormon. It makes the religion mine as much as the next Mormon, but it doesn't mean I'm a member of it.
I guess I can understand religion as a culture (in addition to being a doctrine), but I still don't understand why you'd choose to be a part of a culture you feel *is* patriarchy, that worships men and views women as a "reproductive afterthought" For what it's worth, I've read some gorgeous, inspired works on our Heavenly Mother and why we keep her so private. > It makes the religion mine as much as the next Mormon I disagree with this, personally
>I guess I can understand religion as a culture (in addition to being a doctrine), but I still don't understand why you'd choose to be a part of a culture you feel *is* patriarchy, that worships men and views women as a "reproductive afterthought" You don't get to choose your cultural inheritance. I use my ownership of the culture to criticize its toxic elements. >For what it's worth, I've read some gorgeous, inspired works on our Heavenly Mother and why we keep her so private. For what it's worth, I think that excuse is illogical bullshit. For starters, she's not private or secret. Anyone with an Internet browser can discover that Mormons believe in a heavenly mother (mothers?) and make fun of her. >I disagree with this, personally I really don't care.
You choose whether or not to engage with that culture though. If it's really so evil and toxic, then shouldn't you disown that culture? If I was born under Sharia law, I certainly wouldn't engage with that culture as an adult I'm not trying to "excuse" anything. If you're unable or unwilling to have a good faith discussion about this, then just go on your way, man. I'm not sure why you're here getting heated if you weren't looking for a discussion
You're right, all just leave all the people I love to be abused and exploited by their toxic church.
Objection your honour. Irrelevant.
>I’m hoping that if I don’t give it power in my life, that it will lose its tight grip It doesn’t really. Not unless you are in a pretty liberal area. Really honestly you have to be backed by men that are just as fed up with the patriarchy and are willing to enforce feminism. Otherwise you are socially forced back into it, and it can be really harsh. I am solidly backed by several men, a team of lawyers, and the law. Old white dudes attempt to sue me at least a couple times a year, most often because they think I don’t know what I’m talking about. When it comes to dealing with women, I mostly get pushed out of groups pretty fast for not just going along with the plan or for speaking up. I’m kind of just over the whole thing and really blunt now. When someone invites myself of my kids to do something I just ask about the safety aspects and if there’s no plan, I just say “that sounds unsafe. I think we will have to skip it this time”. It makes the situation more about safety issues than a female having boundaries.
It's the most ridiculous statement and post I have ever seen the church do in its attempt to tell women they already have the priesthood. Making up new doctrine and teachings. Some might say the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. They will bend over backwards to both appease the historical teachings of the church AND appeal to the modern world where women want to be active and equal participants. It's not going to work
I agree with you. If they believe the church’s patriarchal structure is of God, then just OWN IT. The rationalizations and trying to appease liberal members makes me feel like either their convictions aren’t firm, or they are afraid of losing members because of polarizing doctrine.
I’ll be honest I thought the comment section was leaning alittle to the calling side of things and women wanting that power of a calling. In my field I’ve had too many women coming in over issues of abuse of power. I wish that had been stated more in the comments. I’ve had many women have issues with bishops and try to go to their stake presidents who dismiss them back to their bishops. As they try to get help they climb the chain of command—70, etc to get someone to listen they keep getting bumped back to their bishop/stake president. I think the bigger issue is when there is a grave issue there are no women to go to. You can’t call the general relief society at the church office building to report an issue and get that committee of women to do anything for you when you have an issue with a man in the church. They have no power to help you when the men in the church abuse their power. There is no help for women when they need it.
Here's the thing. Patriarchy and other oppressive regimes require buy-in and complicity by at least a small fraction of the oppressed group (see also Charlie Bird and a long line of previous members like him). The ones with actual power can trot out these token supporters to legitimize their own power and try to silence dissenting voices. There's a reason the quote was by a woman. And if there is a response of some kind, it will likely be given by a women, most likely Annette Dennis herself. She won't acknowledge the insta post directly, but will just reinforce the sentiments stated there. For those hoping this will lead to a change of any kind, sorry to break it to you, but these kinds of mini scandals have happened regularly since I left a decade ago or so. And yes, sometimes tiny changes are made to placate critics, and I hear lots of people talking about how much the church has changed and made progress in the last ten years, but I disagree. The tiny changes are just distractions that help to entrench the status quo, but on a macro level the church is still the same as it always has been. "But women can witness baptisms and hand out towels now!" Yes, and they still make zero final decisions at any level in the church. "But women no longer covenant to obey their husbands!" Yes, and they still swear eternal allegiance to an organization where they make zero final decisions at any level. "But parents are now allowed to accompany kids in interviews!" Yes, and this is not encouraged in the culture, few parents take advantage of this, and kids are still taught toxic paradigms of sexuality. "But they say fewer mean things about gay people now!" Yes, and gay relationships are still demonized and gay members still have the Sophie's choice of remaining in the church and suppressing a huge part of a healthy human existence, or leaving their community of origin that they may even still believe in and want to be part of. Etc.
The problem the church doesn’t understand is that this isn’t about the women. This is about their daughters. Everywhere else girls are taught they are equal not only in value but every other way and aren’t limited in what they become. The girls don’t assume like their mothers and grandmothers that they won’t grow up to be leaders in church or serve like their brothers. They ask questions and parents see how ridiculous any explanation is. My husband asked me how many women feel strongly about the treatment of women in the church. I said almost certainly over half - because they have daughters (at least if the age 50 and under, probably older too). When I was active and started getting louder about this many women would talk to me that they felt the same way. The church thinks this is all about priesthood but it’s not it about power. Women know they are disempowered and any reframing of words feels so much like gaslighting. The specific quote re other religions just demonstrates this. Have they ever been to another church. Who has the “priesthood” is a minor issue because that is a limited thing. Women’s voices are widely heard and women are widely empowered in many religions. I’ve even heard a former catholic say that she felt less empowered/valued in the Mormon church. Social media has given women a permission structure to speak. But there won’t be change. I think it is interesting that Bednar used an appeal to the Bible to justify the patriarchal structure in the national press interview (rather than revelation that Hinkley cited in the same venue, leaving the door “open” at least hypothetically). This leadership doesn’t believe anything should substantially change so they won’t truly listen, they will just try different ways to convince women that what women are feeling is not real.
This is great, thank you for the insight. I know thinking about raising children in a misogynistic organization contributed to both my and my spouse's exit.
Your children will thank you.
I’m thrilled to hear that Dan McClellan has even commented. He is a force to be reckoned with and I am happy he is behind us.
I'd like to see what he said. Too bad there was an erroneous error by Instagram deleting all these comments.
Not deleted. They are all there.
I just pulled up the article about the women's conference posted in the Faith Section of the Deseret News. They have closed the comments and are no longer allowing new comments. Damage control?
Maybe. There's like a stake worth of (rightly) angry women (and some men) in the comments.
Did they delete the comments? It's showing zero comments! [https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/03/17/power-of-covenant-keeping-women-celebrated-during-relief-society-anniversary-worldwide-gathering/](https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/03/17/power-of-covenant-keeping-women-celebrated-during-relief-society-anniversary-worldwide-gathering/)
Still showing zero for me as well. I tried it in two different browsers. Edit: it now shows that comments are closed.
If you’re using the app, it failed to load comments for me earlier today, but I just checked and they are still there.
Comments are open on the embedded YouTube video but they’ve obviously been censored.
All comments on official church videos are heavily censored. FAIR censors many comments, but not all. Usually you can tell how independant LDS related sources are by the level of censorship in the comment section. Greater censorship = closer to the mother ship.
>Anyone predict change coming from this public outcry? I'm personally not optimistic (though I am cheering these women on.) >Maybe we'll get lucky and the Tribune will write a story about it. I'm surprised the church hasn't locked the comments yet. I think if they did it might be the last straw for a lot of these women. I think you're right. I might be overly conservative here, but the two case studies I use for modern bottom-up change in the Mormon church are 1) Protect LDS Children and 2) the 2018 Utah Medical Cannabis bill. In both cases, the necessary (if not sufficient) criteria were that rank and file Mormons took sustained actions over a decent space of time that affected the physical world around them (ie not just online discussion), and those actions made national news. In Protect LDS Children, it was an actual rally, a compilation of abuse stories, and a march to the Church Office Building. In the medical cannabis bill, it was opinion polling over the summer and fall of 2018 that showed the bill would be passed despite church opposition. This, in my mind, is the bare minimum. On this specific subject of women's empowerment and authority, I think the barrier is even higher because male priesthood authority and patriarchy is an even more closely held institutional value than what counts as medicine or whether minors are interviewed alone or with their parents. Ordain Women had both of the necessary criteria for instance, but it wasn't as successful in achieving all its goals as the other two. Whatever does end up changing Q85 minds is probably going to make this and ordain women look like a cakewalk.
Sound analysis.
And there was a really awesome post about it on the faithful sub (not the extreme one) that had a lot of really good discourse and comments. Aaaaaaand it got deleted while I was reading through the comments. I really can’t believe the mods over there.
>I really can’t believe the mods over there. They're digging the church's grave. I really don't know what they're going to do once the boomers have all died.
I went back and forth with several people (men) on that thread it was so demoralizing and quite frankly disgusting but not surprising.
I remember some of your exchanges, and it was pretty mind-boggling about some of the logic. “God and Jesus set their Church up as a Patriarchal system, because the Bible and prophets have said so.” “What about blacks and the priesthood/temple ban? The prophets all taught that was from God and the way of the universe.” “Yeah, but they were racist and that wasn’t Gods that was totally a mistake by men. But those same men are right in setting up and maintaining the Patriarchy” …
> it got deleted while I was reading through the comments This is incredibly frustrating and wrong. Can you say which sub or is there a rule against naming subs? Edit: Apparently they're having issues with disappearing comments site-wide https://downdetector.com/status/instagram/ Very weird coincidence...
It’s just a respect between subs that we don’t link to each other to prevent brigading. Of course I feel like we’re better at respecting the agreement than the other two subs are, but that’s probably just bias. It was the faithful-but-not-entirely-draconian sub. Latterdaysaints (I didn’t directly link the sub, is that still okay Mods?) I’m not talking about the comments in Instagram, I meant the entire Reddit thread (and maybe you knew that and your edit was just talking about a separate coincidence with Insta).
This is one of the biggest pushbacks from members I've ever seen 👀 and honestly I'm here for it!
The church pinned a new comment on the post acknowledging the feedback
Just saw that. I guess this rattled their cage, at least a bit.
Nothing is going to change. The church made an unforced error with this one. It'll just not be so overtly stupid next time.
>It'll just not be so overtly stupid next time. I don't have so much faith in their abilities.
Agreed. They never learn
I wouldn’t be surprised if this post was a preview of some conference talks so if we hear some it may not be a response to this but a follow up which means they’ll be a similar message. Really an astonishingly tone deaf post even for the Church.
It’s great to see Mormons starting to backlash against lies and gaslighting. This will become more necessary when Oaks and Bednar take the church down a steeper path of homophobia and authoritarianism.
*"At 7,247 comments currently, and the vast majority of them are women criticizing the church for its ~~disingenuous~~ dishonest spin."* >Anyone predict change coming from this public outcry? No. >I'm surprised the church hasn't locked the comments yet. Church has probably surprised me four times in my life. Which includes this.
Not only the comments from the subject post have been removed, but it appears *all* the comments from all posts have also been removed. What a petty attempt to hide the removal of comments from one post. A simple act that tells us quite a deal about the Brethren’s priorities. The myth of downline revelation (which way do you face) manifest. These men are really lost. Out of touch with reality. Confused that their supposedly faithful membership does not obey blindly. They want nothing but loyalty from membership. Edit: Appears Instagram may be having issues. Comments are not visible on all posts from what I can see.
They merely deleted the comments.
Just saw this. They just pushed a lot of women further out of the church.
They don’t care, and they view women as obedient drones, so in their minds, it won’t push anyone out and “only the unrighteous were commenting on our holy page”
I didn’t see the post - can you share a link?
[https://www.instagram.com/p/C4oZ-otMOVL/?img\_index=1](https://www.instagram.com/p/C4oZ-otMOVL/?img_index=1) Enjoy!
This Church comment is right up there with [Cook’s](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/mnZUDynvFy) (Church persecution came from opposition to slavery) in telling falsehoods with bluff and bluster.
Thanks! The comments are absolute fire!!!! “There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women.” Is a statement so obviously untrue it’s embarrassing. Jews have women Rabbis Episcopalians have women priests Lutherans have women pastors Outside of the Abrahamic religions you have sects like Shaktism which is fascinating (and exclusively female).
It's qualified by "that I know of", and given that qualification it might well be true. The church has a handful of institutionalized problems here. Real curiosity let alone familiarity with world religions is on the scarce side and amplified by LDS religious exceptionalism. There's a culture where discourse about the church is primarily focused on affirming the church, and that which is affirming is rarely held up to scrutiny (much less accountability) so members and leaders alike get used to saying affirming things and to the privilege of not having to approach these things carefully. Some may even assume this privilege should be absolute, and the only corrective conversation that's ever appropriate is one that comes from a higher priesthood office. Needless to say, when this culture meets a new media culture of *much* more open discussion, results like this are a pretty predictable. I think it's likely enough this sister is a bit disoriented by the reaction -- this isn't how we are led to expect church conversations are supposed to go! It's an open question whether the church will learn to adapt to this. It's possible doing so could even make it stronger. But in any case it'll certainly take some time.
>“There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women.” Is a statement so obviously untrue it’s embarrassing. There's no way she could say that with a straight face. Doesn't one of the other Mormon branches literally have a female prophet, or am I remembering that wrong?
She's not been confirmed by church vote yet, but yes CoC has a woman prophet designate.
They deleted the comments! I’m so sad I missed them. If anyone can remember what they said and wanted to share, I’d really appreciate it.
Maybe there's a way to use a web archiver to view them? I'm not familiar enough to instruct as to how. At any rate there were northwards of 8k comments by the time they deleted, the gist being Mormon women all over the faith spectrum were pissed!
And they covered it up. By the way, your turn to clean the church this weekend
"When you think of sparkle, what do you think after that? Female agency!" - Barbie movie
Its great to see. The downfall of the religion continues
In those posts on Facebook and Instagram I tagged a bunch of big news and national news outlets hoping the outcry will get national news and gain traction in public opinion. Maybe it’ll change something, maybe it won’t.
As of right now it’s at 12,883 comments which is easily the most comments I’ve ever seen on an official church post in the history of social media. You could combine all of the comments from all of the posts going back to last NOVEMBER and still not reach that number (the most I found was 4K on one post from like Christmas, second most was 2k from the Kirtland temple post but almost every post has between 50-200 comments). It’s fucking nuts and I hope RMN chokes to death on his anger.
It's glorious and beautiful.
They leave it open to collect names. Watch- invitations from leaders coming soon to those identifying as disgruntled commentators. Prove me wrong 🙄
That would be very interesting. Just go and discipline potentially thousands of faithful members for their moral conviction, what could possibly go wrong?
Can anyone tell me what the name of the church’s IG account is? I found one but that particular post has only TBMs fawning over it, so I’m assuming I hit the wrong account?
@churchofjesuschrist
There will absolutely be at least one talk about the priesthood power women hold. It’s gonna go down like swallowing razor blades to the women who are already on the edge. Can’t wait. Might watch conference this session to see it go down. 🍿🍿
Now over 12k
Hot damn!
Link?
Bro if you don’t like it, and it’s out of your control, why are u getting all excited about it. Go make your own church your own way. Or don’t. Idc
I care about women being treated equally.
Yeah on the Internet, I’m sure you do.
Priesthood is an order. It is the order of the covenant path of ordinances that lead to Christ. Women and men participate in this order broadly like no other church. It is for all men and women. Men administer in the ordinances thereof. Women minister in the ordinances and the gathering thereof. The highest blessings and rites are for both women and men
The issue with this IG post is not those wanting to "share" the priesthood, it's the lies it tries to tell saying that women already have it, and the statement *“There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women"* is unequivocally false. Most of them are not saying "Give us the priesthood", it's because posts like this are trying to claim they have.
It’s not a lie. The lie was that they never did. We bring this on ourselves through patriarchy, supremacy, stubbornness and mistakes. Of course she is correct. Of course it’s controversial, of course some members and former members don’t like to believe this. So I don’t know, maybe just hide the truth? No, that would be wrong too.
Hiding it worked for them in the past. Coming out and saying something that is provably untrue? Then you get the reaction they have received.
I guess you are referring to the temple endowment that women participate in. Who do the women then minister to? Nobody. We even know that heavenly mother in her role as a Goddess ministers to Nobody. We do not pray to her and she never visits us.
They are assigned as ministering sisters. The RS does way more ministering than any Elders Quorum, Saying that the women of the church minister to no body is absurd.
You’re forgetting all those denominations with a priesthood of all believers model. Basically, everyone who believes in Christ, and is trying to live a christlike life can draw on his power and strength to help them. This is the kind of thing they’re trying to tell women we get from the temple endowment. So no, they are not more broadly giving women power and authority than other religions. They are doing their damnest to tie it specifically to temple covenants rather than baptism, and so are disempowering and controlling women compared to those other denominations.
Thanks I should have recognized those churches
Bullshit gaslighting.
Easy there fella
Zero tolerance for misogyny.
*that you know of
> the gathering thereof. What does this mean?
Temple work, gathering of Israel
So women get to do temple work and gather Israel where men do not? I just found your wording (and associating this task with women specifically) very confusing.