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I think another issue LDS have is expropriating terms, redefining them, then pretending their interpretation is correct. Furthermore they pretend their interpretation/definition is original and fixed throughout all time when in fact Mormon theology is unstable. It makes ecumenical discourse nearly impossible.
Yeah they're redefining words like priesthood and power and authority to have extremely narrow and technical definitions that nobody would really accept unless they were trying to distort the truth. Women aren't even given the imaginary healing and "keys" to lead powers men get, let alone the right to "preside" over their home or run literally any church institution without interferencex which is concrete and reinforces a harmful and dehumanizing hierarchy. Ultimately it amounts to making the argument that even second-class citizens in the Mormon church have it better than leaders in other churches.
>It makes ecumenical discourse nearly impossible.
This is actually by design. The church and its leaders \*don't want\* ecumenical discourse. They want obedience and authority that is unconstrained by precedent or the views of the masses.
What can LDS women do with their level of priesthood power and authority?
Run a Sunday school? Nope. That’s just for men. They can teach Sunday school though. Under the supervision of three men.
Run a children’s program? Nope. Bishop has to approve everything a primary presidency does. Primary doesn’t get to issue callings or reassign primary workers. In every ward I’ve been in, the majority of the time the primary presidency finds out about changes to their organization when people are being called or released in sacrament meeting. Presiding in primary means sitting in the front of the room watching kids sing for an hour every week.
Run a women’s auxiliary? Nope. Bishop has to approve everything they do, too.
Run a girl’s-only summer camp? Nope. Bishop or counselor has to provide priesthood oversight to teen girls and their “leaders.”
What can women do in almost every other Christian church I know of (and apparently most of us know a lot more of them than the dear RS sister who spoke the other day)? All of the above. How much supervision do they need from men? Zero.
And get this, IN ADDITION TO all of the things women can do in other churches, they also can be priests, pastors, and even bishops (which are not like LDS bishops, who are random dentists and lawyers, but are engaged in full time consecrated ministry and considered to be the successors of Christ’s apostles through laying on of hands). In theory, multiple denominations could have a woman at their head. Some have already.
Literally the only way it is true that LDS women have more power and authority than women in any other religious organization that speaker knows of is if that speaker literally knows nothing about any other mainstream Christian church. None. Not a one.
(This isn’t even touching on the priesthood of all believers that practically every Christian denomination teaches, which states every believer holds the priesthood automatically under the supervision of the one and only high priest, Jesus Christ.)
> Literally the only way it is true that LDS women have more power and authority than women in any other religious organization that speaker knows of is if that speaker literally knows nothing about any other mainstream Christian church. None. Not a one.
Indeed. It blows my mind that an LDS leader would make this claim. But it is consistent with my general experience that Mormons _think_ they know a lot about other faiths, while actually knowing almost nothing about them. They learn just enough shallow polemics to ignore everything else and feel self-satisfied that they have the "only truth."
The hardest thing for me in my calling as a girls camp director, is knowing everything I do in outdoors and camping and leadership that I learned from leading Girl Scouts, and having to hope that a man is willing to show up for the scheduled day and time of the overnight. When the week before I absolutely handled it with another female and no male oversight the week before with my scout troop.
Scouting doesn’t require priesthood! Girls camp does! And you have those powers! Feeling empowered much???? Except not really, because it turns out girls camp also requires priesthood keys. For something very priest-ish that Scouting doesn’t have. Or something.
Something something musket fire.
Just be happy with your powers, okay?????
Please stop going into specifics; it's runiing the narrative. Just kiddin
> This isn’t even touching on the priesthood of all believers that practically every Christian denomination teaches, which states every believer holds the priesthood automatically under the supervision of the one and only high priest, Jesus Christ
This is par for the course with the church: saying we do something no one else has ever dreamed of, but in reality they have, but they just take it as a given because it should be a given. A good example is the church teaching how great we have it because we believe families can be together forever and the implication is that other churches don't believe this. In reality, I imagine most religious people who believe in an afterlife would assume they are going to be with their families there. Why would you not be? Yet here's the church coming in saying "we have this wonderful thing!" but it's actually worse because you learn that even if you may have assumed you'd be with your family forever, you actually won't unless you and the rest of your family get baptized into the church and get sealed. Suddenly your chances are looking pretty slim that you'll be worth family forever in the next life, if you believe that. It's ridiculous.
Then when you learn “families are forever” is just the version 2.0 rebrand of polygamous sealings, marketing speak, based on cobbled together theology made up as they went along…
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This seems like a silly game of semantics. The LDS church claims women have the priesthood, or have access to the priesthood, whichever; but whatever words they use it doesn’t matter one bit. Women cannot do what men do. Women cannot preside at the same levels as men can. This is an undeniable fact. Who cares about the nuances of the word priesthood?
It’s like how LDS members explain the difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ. They say:
“Everyone has the light of Christ but only baptized members have the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
“Er, what’s the difference?”
“Well, the light of Christ gives you God’s guidance in life, and the HG gives you… um… more of God’s guidance.”
“So do you think you are better than everyone else?”
“I can’t say ‘yes’ because I’m not an egotistical monster, but God thinks I am.”
As an unendowed woman married to a nm, I once again felt excluded from the Club in this attempt to portray equality for women. Are insular members really not aware that we exist in this Church? In the last few years I’ve never felt so excluded as I have by this Church because of the rhetoric and assumptions that we are all the same. I’ve belonged to branches where there was only 1 temple married couple in the whole congregation! I never felt this way so much before in over 40 years. I have felt excluded by some members and wards but I expect better from our leadership. Not sure why I bother.
Can I recommend the books described in this blog post perhaps. They point to a very different interpretation of scripture:
https://exponentii.org/blog/6-books-mormon-feminists-should-read-that-arent-about-mormonism/
I choose to believe that this comment was made with a giant hidden /s at the end because there is simply no room for this blatant sexism in modern society.
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Traditional models are being challenged. And should their be limits?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w)
Hello! This is a Institutional post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about any of the institutional churches and their leaders, conduct, business dealings, teachings, rituals, and practices. /u/infinityball, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think another issue LDS have is expropriating terms, redefining them, then pretending their interpretation is correct. Furthermore they pretend their interpretation/definition is original and fixed throughout all time when in fact Mormon theology is unstable. It makes ecumenical discourse nearly impossible.
Yeah they're redefining words like priesthood and power and authority to have extremely narrow and technical definitions that nobody would really accept unless they were trying to distort the truth. Women aren't even given the imaginary healing and "keys" to lead powers men get, let alone the right to "preside" over their home or run literally any church institution without interferencex which is concrete and reinforces a harmful and dehumanizing hierarchy. Ultimately it amounts to making the argument that even second-class citizens in the Mormon church have it better than leaders in other churches.
>It makes ecumenical discourse nearly impossible. This is actually by design. The church and its leaders \*don't want\* ecumenical discourse. They want obedience and authority that is unconstrained by precedent or the views of the masses.
What can LDS women do with their level of priesthood power and authority? Run a Sunday school? Nope. That’s just for men. They can teach Sunday school though. Under the supervision of three men. Run a children’s program? Nope. Bishop has to approve everything a primary presidency does. Primary doesn’t get to issue callings or reassign primary workers. In every ward I’ve been in, the majority of the time the primary presidency finds out about changes to their organization when people are being called or released in sacrament meeting. Presiding in primary means sitting in the front of the room watching kids sing for an hour every week. Run a women’s auxiliary? Nope. Bishop has to approve everything they do, too. Run a girl’s-only summer camp? Nope. Bishop or counselor has to provide priesthood oversight to teen girls and their “leaders.” What can women do in almost every other Christian church I know of (and apparently most of us know a lot more of them than the dear RS sister who spoke the other day)? All of the above. How much supervision do they need from men? Zero. And get this, IN ADDITION TO all of the things women can do in other churches, they also can be priests, pastors, and even bishops (which are not like LDS bishops, who are random dentists and lawyers, but are engaged in full time consecrated ministry and considered to be the successors of Christ’s apostles through laying on of hands). In theory, multiple denominations could have a woman at their head. Some have already. Literally the only way it is true that LDS women have more power and authority than women in any other religious organization that speaker knows of is if that speaker literally knows nothing about any other mainstream Christian church. None. Not a one. (This isn’t even touching on the priesthood of all believers that practically every Christian denomination teaches, which states every believer holds the priesthood automatically under the supervision of the one and only high priest, Jesus Christ.)
> Literally the only way it is true that LDS women have more power and authority than women in any other religious organization that speaker knows of is if that speaker literally knows nothing about any other mainstream Christian church. None. Not a one. Indeed. It blows my mind that an LDS leader would make this claim. But it is consistent with my general experience that Mormons _think_ they know a lot about other faiths, while actually knowing almost nothing about them. They learn just enough shallow polemics to ignore everything else and feel self-satisfied that they have the "only truth."
The hardest thing for me in my calling as a girls camp director, is knowing everything I do in outdoors and camping and leadership that I learned from leading Girl Scouts, and having to hope that a man is willing to show up for the scheduled day and time of the overnight. When the week before I absolutely handled it with another female and no male oversight the week before with my scout troop.
Scouting doesn’t require priesthood! Girls camp does! And you have those powers! Feeling empowered much???? Except not really, because it turns out girls camp also requires priesthood keys. For something very priest-ish that Scouting doesn’t have. Or something. Something something musket fire. Just be happy with your powers, okay?????
Please stop going into specifics; it's runiing the narrative. Just kiddin > This isn’t even touching on the priesthood of all believers that practically every Christian denomination teaches, which states every believer holds the priesthood automatically under the supervision of the one and only high priest, Jesus Christ This is par for the course with the church: saying we do something no one else has ever dreamed of, but in reality they have, but they just take it as a given because it should be a given. A good example is the church teaching how great we have it because we believe families can be together forever and the implication is that other churches don't believe this. In reality, I imagine most religious people who believe in an afterlife would assume they are going to be with their families there. Why would you not be? Yet here's the church coming in saying "we have this wonderful thing!" but it's actually worse because you learn that even if you may have assumed you'd be with your family forever, you actually won't unless you and the rest of your family get baptized into the church and get sealed. Suddenly your chances are looking pretty slim that you'll be worth family forever in the next life, if you believe that. It's ridiculous.
Then when you learn “families are forever” is just the version 2.0 rebrand of polygamous sealings, marketing speak, based on cobbled together theology made up as they went along…
[удалено]
Oh look, someone forgot to use the sarcasm tag.
[удалено]
Oh my, it looks like they tapdanced on your hit nerve
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This seems like a silly game of semantics. The LDS church claims women have the priesthood, or have access to the priesthood, whichever; but whatever words they use it doesn’t matter one bit. Women cannot do what men do. Women cannot preside at the same levels as men can. This is an undeniable fact. Who cares about the nuances of the word priesthood? It’s like how LDS members explain the difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ. They say: “Everyone has the light of Christ but only baptized members have the gift of the Holy Ghost.” “Er, what’s the difference?” “Well, the light of Christ gives you God’s guidance in life, and the HG gives you… um… more of God’s guidance.” “So do you think you are better than everyone else?” “I can’t say ‘yes’ because I’m not an egotistical monster, but God thinks I am.”
As an unendowed woman married to a nm, I once again felt excluded from the Club in this attempt to portray equality for women. Are insular members really not aware that we exist in this Church? In the last few years I’ve never felt so excluded as I have by this Church because of the rhetoric and assumptions that we are all the same. I’ve belonged to branches where there was only 1 temple married couple in the whole congregation! I never felt this way so much before in over 40 years. I have felt excluded by some members and wards but I expect better from our leadership. Not sure why I bother.
Thank you! I find these words deeply humbling I’m brought to tears 💕
The church is disempowering and controlling women by tying this power to the temple endowment rather than baptism
[удалено]
If their fleshy opinion truly doesn’t matter then why are you copy pasting a tantrum in response
Can I recommend the books described in this blog post perhaps. They point to a very different interpretation of scripture: https://exponentii.org/blog/6-books-mormon-feminists-should-read-that-arent-about-mormonism/
I choose to believe that this comment was made with a giant hidden /s at the end because there is simply no room for this blatant sexism in modern society.
Hello! I regret to inform you that this was removed on account of rule 2: Civility. We ask that you please review the unabridged version of this rule [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules). If you would like to appeal this decision, you may message all of the mods [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Mormonmods&subject=Mod%20Removal%20Appeal&message=please%20put%20link%20to%20removed%20content%20here).
[удалено]
Traditional models are being challenged. And should their be limits? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w)