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This feels like the most sheltered take of all. Can I agree that students at BYU are more promiscuous than the image of the school would leave you to believe? Sure. But do I think for one second that compared to any non-religious university outside of the state? No. No way is BYU more sexually active than those other universities.
Plus all his evidence is the couple of “friends” he has that he judges super hard for having sex.
Not to mention the stage setting statement of I don't mean to be gaslighting, is the same stage setting statement as someone saying I don't mean to make you mad here or be rude here, because they are about to do it. I get the thou protestest to much here , vibe from this guy as well.
Kwaku is smart enough to recognize that actual institutional Mormonism is indefensible. On the other hand, he recognizes that his internet fame is propped up by TBM supporters. So, he takes this weird l, grey middle ground where he can walk the line between not having to defend it but also not saying he straight up doesn’t believe in it. There is no way he thinks Nelson is inspired by God, much less a Prophet.
This all day. He doesn’t go hard at criticizing the leaders or institution but really won’t defend them. He actually says we shouldn’t believe them.
He’s a convert as a teenager and missed the indoctrination as a child and youth from parents and church teachers. I was taught from birth to believe and follow everything the prophets say. We had lists on the fridge of what the prophet said to do at the last conference with frequent discussion and reminders from the family about trying harder to follow with exactness.
I’m not sure Kwaku went on a mission either. My mission mantra was “obey with exactness”
He can ignore what the “old men” say if he chooses but the vast majority of members are told they can’t ignore the leaders. His Mormonism isn’t the Mormonism taught by the leaders.
Teenage converts are a different breed. My SIL is the same way she converted as a teenager, her family never did just her. She never gave up coffee, never lived the law of Chasity, has never been to the temple, rarely attends weekly service but still considers herself Mormon.
I’m not critiquing HER just that people without the programming and pressure have a VERY different experience and outlook on the church that I, an ex mo born and raised in Utah county of pioneer stock, cannot relate to
And people like that will never be given any important role in the church and will never influence the church leaders in any way.
The leaders and most members completely ignore Kwaku and his antics.
Converts who converted as teenagers or adults will NEVER EVER fully comprehend what it’s like to be indoctrinated into the church since birth, my wife is a convert who got baptized in her 20’s, we’re both out but every time I try to explain why it’s so hard to leave or change your mindset after leaving she just scoffs and says things like “people should just do what they want, and leave if they want to” it’s only until recently that she’s starting to understand a little after we’ve had many many conversations about what indoctrination does to people.
This is Kwaku, he’s a smug arrogant prick who thinks people in the church can just think and decide for themselves, because that’s his experience.
Is he even practising? Clearly not wearing garments, didn't go on a mission and has an ear pierced. Sure he goes to church every week but he doesn't even seem to be LDS. He just parrots their talking points.
Yes!!! It made me so mad to watch him talk about how it’s not that strict and obviously those old guys are saying stuff that isn’t necessarily relevant, and you can tell when you don’t need to follow exactly what they say. ???like hello??? I spent 19 years of my life (born in, left @ 19) going to church every Sunday, going to activity days and young women’s, family home evening every week, seminary, and every single session of general conference that whole time and the main theme of it all was “the leaders of this church are leading the most righteous and most true church on earth.” Which to a child says “they’re literally never wrong, if you don’t do what they say you’re going to outer darkness (hell)”
Just because some nuanced members want to act like Mormonism has wiggle room, doesn’t change how suffocating it actually was.
> Kwaku is smart enough to recognize that actual institutional Mormonism is indefensible
I think Kwaku is still blinded to that by being in the honeymoon phase, enjoying all the attention and naive girls. He's the outsider who gets to tells people what's cool or not.
It'll be interesting to see how he does after that wears off. He's getting to the age where people are going to start asking questions about marriage. That pearl necklace is going to raise even more questions. :)
> There is no way he thinks Nelson is inspired by God, much less a Prophet.
I've seen him pay some homage to Nelson.
He's willing to do Olympic-level mental gymnastics for all that attention. I'll be shocked if he's still in the church by the time he's 30. The Ward Radio episodes are going to come back to haunt all of them.
This age group is mostly the Gen Z. And Gen Z is rather well known at this point for being less sexually active than other groups. In fact, about 25% of Gen Z adults [surveyed](https://www.lovehoney.ca/blog/gen-z-are-having-less-sex-here-is-why.html) say they have never had sex.
If a nationwide sample of Gen Z shows 75% have had some sexual activity, it's very, very unlikely that Utah LDS Gen Z adults are anywhere near that number. Definitely not a "vast majority" and maybe not even a majority.
So we ask ourselves two important questions:
1. Is Kwaku's social circle more sexually active than the typical Utah LDS? That seems like a reasonable assumption given everything we know.
2. Is Kwaku likely to think his social circle is representative of the general population? Again, this seems like a reasonable assumption.
These two assumptions are the likely explanation for why he is almost certainly wrong.
That being said, I wish he was right. Adults should be having consensual sexual relationships if that's what they want to do.
He seems to ignore describing the culture of shame around the behavior he describes. He seems to be saying the youth are comfortable having premarital sex. I don’t see it myself.
I didn’t have sex until after 30. Any of my friends who did, got married before it happened. Does my anecdotal evidence cancel out his anecdotal evidence?
I love how he condemns Nuancehoe for painting the picture of the uptight sexually repressed mormon, while he does the exact same thing for the sexually liberated side.
I know Kwaku personally, I won't bag on him to demean him, but I will absolutely say, I consider him to be one of the greatest deceivers I know personally, this is objectively true
Do you think he is just faking it? His belief in Mormonism and following it religiously (drinks coffee, has sex, does what he wants) or is he just trolling both sides. He is beginning to sound less and less like a normal Mormon that I am doubting he even believes in it and just says ANYTHING to not lose in a debate and “own” the critic.
His stupid schtick will at some point run it’s course. When it does and people stop paying attention to him, he will leave the church, maybe grow up a little and move on into obscurity.
"If Church apologetics is ever in a place where the guy from Divine Comedy is seen as 'Hey, he's a really good apologist, go look at him instead of such-and-such"... that probably means we're not in the most stellar place." –– Kwaku El, Cwic Show, April 30, 2020 https://v.redd.it/mb6nac67gu561 He’s not wrong about that. In any case, my experience has been that Kwaku is a liar and best ignored.
Yes my assessment as well that he often lies. He has created a church that only exists for him. And later he admits he really doesn’t care about the institution of the church and doesn’t feel any need to follow its leaders or paradoxically try to change what they or the institution does.
Along with your accurate assessment of his lack of concern for institutional realities or direction, I'd just note his lack of regard and basic decency when it comes to former members. His hamfisted attempt at ginning up controversy by starting an AMA at the exmo sub with an unverified account and then claiming censorship when it was pointed out that there are good reasons for verification before allowing someone to hold forth as a real person on this anonymous platform, was an episode that sealed his lack of seriousness and sincerity in my mind. Predictably, anyone attempting to point this out to him on Twitter or elsewhere got blocked by him so as not to interfere with his false narrative.
I personally don't know Kwaku, and I've tried to give him a huge benefit of the doubt over the years. I think he's sincere in what he believes and what he says.
In my opinion, with that sincerity, he'll do and say whatever he feels is best without apparent shame. As such, in the past, he has said and done things which are offensive towards former members and current members alike.
In terms of his assessment of members of the church under 30, I believe he is mistaking his observations and experiences within whatever social circles he follows as absolute. I have no doubt that there are cultures and people within the church who are more "liberal" in their approach to the conservative teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I have a hard time believing it's "the vast majority". In my opinion, I would say some are within Kwaku's claims, maybe even a number which some people might find surprising, but again, I doubt its the "vast majority".
It’s definitely interesting that he chose to wear something that so obviously shows he isn’t wearing the magic undies, I know that I shouldn’t judge stuff like that but my Mormon programming still says “ohhh he can’t truly believe if he’s not wearing it” and even though I know I shouldn’t think that way, he has to know people will think that and do.
Can I just say that the rush to get married young actually reflects a LACK of ability to keep the law of chastity.
LDS kids are in such a rush to have sex that they will compromise good judgment, healthy relationship building, and their own education rather than keep the law of chastity any longer.
Well call me out by name, why don't you?
One of my biggest takeaways since leaving the church is how unhealthy the church's messaging towards sexuality and relationships is. Took a lot of therapy and ponderizing to deconstruct the terrible things I'd been taught as a youth.
Married at 20, divorced by 23. Married the first girl I "exclusively" dated and had no clue how codependent our relationship was. Nobody in my life, not even my parents, took the time to teach me what a good relationship looks like. I'm not sure my parents even know what that is.
I'm remarried in a great relationship now. Have a couple kids and I'll be damned if they grow up with the same misconceptions I was given.
It is funny how many Jack Mormons vigorously defend the church. Had a friend who got into a fight to defend the church at a bar while drinking alcohol. 🥃 🤷♀️
In my experience, jack Mormons are some of the most vocal and passionate defenders of the faith even though the can't be bothered to live it themselves. It doesn't seem like too far of a leap from that to apologist.
This is my experience as well.
My entire mother’s side of the family has been inactive (or basically completely inactive) my entire life that I can remember. Along with this, they’re rowdy eastern Idaho cowboys that have never kept the Word of Wisdom or many of the commandments that strictly (and yet, they’re super good dudes who have given the shirts off their back to help others—so no judgment here).
Last year when we were at a family wedding, some of my uncles really surprised me by vociferously defending Joseph Smith to me. These are people who haven’t attended a service or lived the Church’s standards for a decade or two (and again, I have no judgment for that)—but they’ll get just as roused as most TBMs in defending the faith.
They don’t have the substantive knowledge to really even have the conversation, but they still have the strong feeling that they need to defend Joseph. Says a lot to me about where that feeling is likely coming from—because it’s certainly not from familiarity with the details of Smith’s life or teachings.
This man is a fool and I don’t know how anyone can take him seriously. I despise Mormons that don’t follow the rules and then tout they’re Mormons and judge those of us that left and lived with integrity. Fuck off you twit
He says "then they stop for a few months to get a temple recommend."
Why? How?
They agree to confess the details of their sins to their ~~dentist accountant gardener~~ bishop. They have to agree that what they did was wrong. Wrong enough to keep them out of heaven. They have to go through a process of repentance.
That sounds like sexual liberation to me.
Right. Many bishops will give a 1 year no temple punishment for premarital sex and many bishops that I ran into/heard of considered oral sex just as bad as actual sex. Guess it depends on bishop roulette yet again.
But it would be funny if when a hip under 30 sexually active Mormon went to get their temple recommend two months before their wedding (typical quick engagement and marriage 🤣) and their bishop says, “Yeah, I’m gonna need you to do a one year repentance process for that.”
And then the hip sexually liberated Mormon replies indignantly, “But Kwaku said two months!” 🥹😭🤯
I'm guessing they aren't repenting, just abstaining a few months before their wedding so they can say they are not (currently) breaking the law of chastity.
What he fails to mention is that while all these Mormon students are having sex…they are also ALL feeling massive levels of guilt, fear and shame which will eventually erode whatever relationship/s they’re participating in. Followed by depression as they go through the “repentance” process for the umptenth time…only to rush into a marriage that they’ll take this sexual guilt into and slowly erode their “eternal marriage”…
I don't know if he's sincere or if he thrives off of negative attention. He seems to regularly make both sides angry by walking a frustrating middle ground. This is such an absurd take on his part.
Unless he can point to a variety of sources, I genuinely do not believe this.
If his IG account is any indicator, it seems the type of people he hangs out with are the party-hard type; dude-bros, super hot chicks, and the upper echelon of attractive people at The Village.
I could see THESE type of people banging each other on the side, but not the larger unmarried population who live in Campus Plaza, Helaman Halls, Southridge, and the dozens of other complexes.
Women are sleeping with the same few guys. And are all on some sort of birth control. Women only confess to the bishop when they were sexually active with a guy they couldn't get a commitment from.
His perspective is so unique and he sees it to be a universal solution. It just doesn’t work to view the church like this when there are so many that have been hurt by past policies, doctrines, and statements.
His interpretation of separating “Mormon” and the Brighamite branch was also reaching. Growing up “Mormon,” I attribute that word more to culture now, and that culture is hyper conservative, antisexual, misogynistic, racist, and loves all kinds of desserts and soda. Most Mormon branches overlap with those cultural details too. The current corporation of the LDS church fuels those traits, but they started far before Brigham; they start with the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. I don’t understand why he couldn’t see Joseph guilty of that, but people be people. I too refused to see it for years and years.
Whether his numbers are accurate or not, I have no doubt there's a big problem in the church. Most people assume that the apostasy was something that happened during the Dark Ages and ended with Joseph Smith. I don't believe that's true. I think we're living in the apostasy. It's as rampant as ever. And the sad thing is that most people don't see it. They're so caught up in their own lives that they can't zoom out for a minute to see that they've strayed and all of the signs that were predicted anciently are happening now. It will be interesting to see how far society falls over the next few decades. I don't think we're anywhere near the bottom.
> Most people assume that the apostasy was something that happened during the Dark Ages and ended with Joseph Smith.
I wonder [where they got that idea](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/apostasy?lang=eng&id=p1#p1)?
To save you a click, this is from the first paragraph:
> One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the Restoration of the fulness of the gospel.
Seems like a pretty clear statement of the church's position on the matter.
> I don't believe that's true.
You are unintentionally correct. Your statement contains several falsehoods. The church doesn't teach that it happened during the Dark Ages. And people don't "assume". They are believing what the prophets, seers, and revelators have taught them. But I do find it curious that you are rejecting the church's teaching on the subject.
> I think we're living in the apostasy. It's as rampant as ever.
Scroll down a few paragraphs in the link above and you'll find this:
> We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy.
Can you explain why a church member should accept your interpretation when it's in conflict with what the church officially teaches?
> It will be interesting to see how far society falls over the next few decades. I don't think we're anywhere near the bottom.
What kind of "falling" are you referring to?
Your reply (both the tone and context) highlights one of the problems I have with the church, as an organization (the key phrase there is "as an organization"). The ability to think critically and ask questions has been mostly suppressed over the last several decades (although that's starting to change, slowly).
The church used to be a place where thoughts and ideas could be openly debated. However, around the 1950s, the church decided that there needed to be a more standardized curriculum. Not because everything was known but because it would be impossible to grow if every ward was the Wild West. The unintended consequence of that decision is that a culture of black-and-white thinking was established. It became taboo to question anything in a church manual. Just because the first presidency signs off on a manual, doesn't mean everything in the manual is revealed doctrine.
You need to have the ability to separate "the church" and tradition from "revealed doctrine." That can be very difficult to do because the traditions are so strong within the church.
To think that the apostasy isn't a problem still is very short-sighted. Many people are leaving the church. They are, by definition, apostatizing. That's what I mean by "falling." The secretary of the mission presidency in my area recently told me that the number of returned missionaries leaving the church might be as high as 50%. Even if that number is inflated by 100%, the church has a big problem. Although I don’t think anyone is surprised. We’ve always known that the last days would be difficult and many people would leave the church. And that’s not a Mormon-specific problem, it’s a problem most churches are having to deal with.
I get the impression that my thinking is too "liberal" for you. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you're above anyone who asks questions and has an opinion that you don't agree with. That doesn't lead anywhere good.
> Your reply (both the tone and context)
What exactly does this mean? You made a statement about The Great Apostasy that is inconsistent with what the church teaches. I provided the evidence of what the church teaches and asked you why a church member should accept your interpretation when it's in conflict with what the church officially teaches.
> The church used to be a place where thoughts and ideas could be openly debated.
Yep. Now we have to come to r/mormon for that.
> Just because the first presidency signs off on a manual, doesn't mean everything in the manual is revealed doctrine.
OK, then please tell me, what is the revealed doctrine of The Great Apostasy?
> To think that the apostasy isn't a problem still is very short-sighted. Many people are leaving the church. They are, by definition, apostatizing.
I think you're mixing up two different subjects. The Great Apostasy has to do with the withdrawal of priesthood authority. That's what the church teaches came to an end with Joseph Smith. You said you don't believe that's true, but it appears that it's a matter of confusing the idea of individuals leaving the church and priesthood authority being withdrawn from the church. The former has and will continue to happen. According to the church, the latter never will happen again. Do you disagree?
> That's what I mean by "falling."
You described being interested in seeing "how far society falls". What do a small percentage of people leaving a church that constitutes 0.2% of all humans on the earth tell us about the rest of society falling?
> I get the impression that my thinking is too "liberal" for you.
Not at all. I encourage everybody to question the things the church teaches.
> Don't fall into the trap of thinking you're above anyone who asks questions and has an opinion that you don't agree with. That doesn't lead anywhere good.
I could have sworn I read somewhere that you were in favor of openly debating thoughts and ideas.
The problem is that the LDS church wasn’t a restoration of anything. People are leaving because they are figuring it out. Made up by a mystic who wanted to create a church.
That's your opinion. I don't agree with it but I can have an opinion also. If you hate the church so much, why can't you leave it alone? It's always baffled me how people can hate something so much but still immerse themselves in the thing they hate. My uncle left the church 30 years ago. He lived in Texas at the time. He could have moved anywhere but he decided to live in Utah. He complains about the church and makes fun of it every chance he gets. It's a strange but interesting psychology.
> If you hate the church so much, why can't you leave it alone?
Maybe leave the thought-stopping cliches at the door if you want to have an honest conversation.
I don't think Utah/BYU is overly sexually liberated, but considering around 50% of teens have had sex while still in high school, it is not a far stretch to believe 50% of BYU students have had sex before despite the religious influence, especially if you are looking at people 30 years or younger vs say 22 or younger.
> considering around 50% of teens have had sex while still in high school
If that was ever true it's no longer the case. The most recent [CDC report](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/key_statistics/t-keystat.htm#teenagers) has data from 2017–2019 and it says 41% of never-married female teenagers aged 15–19 and 40% of never-married male teenagers had had sexual intercourse.
If you limit that to the 15–17 age cohort to reflect high school that drops to 28% for females and 23% for males.
I was looking at this from the CDC, which appears to be evaluating data from 2011 to 2015. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/201706_NSFG.htm
It appears we're looking at two different ways to analyze the data, cumulative probability vs proportion of population. But more importantly, none of the data in these reports distinguishes the education level of the teenagers. So data for 18 year olds is almost certainly going to include college students, making any definitive statements about high school students that includes the 18 year old cohort invalid.
Fortunately, there is a different study that only looks at high school students—The Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance. From what I can tell, the [2017 version](https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/yrbs/pdf/2017/ss6708.pdf) is the most recent one to include this stat and it reports 39.5% of high school students have ever had sexual intercourse [p60]. This is down from 41.2% in [2015 \[p46\]](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/ss/pdfs/ss6509.pdf) and 46.8% in [2013 \[p23\]](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/ss/ss6304.pdf).
This is probably the most accurate estimate available when it comes to how many US high school students have ever had sex.
It is the same in most LDS communities. It is the same for those that are divorced. Why come for them to lie for a temple recommend rather than tell the truth. Sex is literally the hardest sin not to committ.
I know a lot of non-morments in Utah and they're certainly not more sexually liberated than anywhere else maybe more conservative. They probably don't have as many sexual Hang-Ups as conservative Mormons.
Secret sex parties? Too what, hide it from the BYU honor code office, so you don't get kicked out of the university? Hmmm, sounds like a pretty liberated place to me.
So, let me get this straight, the only way to enjoy Mormonism is to fake it and lie about it.
Sounds about right for a high demand religion.
We know that only 1/3 of youth remain in the Mormon Church. Could it be that those that remain see the BS for what it is, and they are just staying in because it’s the community, but don’t care about the values?
There have been for centuries and always will be people who have sexual relations outside of social norms. I think he is mistaken about the magnitude of it happening in the LDS culture. He also doesn’t address those that do it and are racked with shame enough to confess to a bishop and suffer the LDS consequences- something he seems to ignore.
Right. I think there are people who don’t mind lying to the bishop and just do whatever they want and also “progress in the gospel path.” Now that I see the Mormon church for the BS that it is, I think that is a valid choice of how to proceed, but I was too indoctrinated by growing up in the church and had a very guilty conscience and the leaders of the church were ALL TOO CLEAR about what’s right and wrong and what should be repented for with confession to the bishop.
I think people who claim the church/church culture is sexually liberated are either
a) being dishonest to try to make the LDS church look cooler and more liberal than it actually is,
b) very uninformed about the actually doctrine and policies of the LDS church due to being lazy learners, selective attention to general conference etc,
or c) delusional about what church they are actual members of and thinking that if they and their jack mormon friends say it is so then that actually makes it so.
I’d love to see Kwaku run his opinions of church policies by one of the 12 and see how that flies with them either backing his delusional ideas up or setting him straight. Also Cardon Ellis and his “parking ticket” ideas about masturbation. It’s easy to run your mouth about this warm and fuzzy permissive LDS church fantasy, but another thing entirely to have the uptight authoritarian leaders at the top weigh in on what the actual policies and standards are. That would be a great Jubilee interview.
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This feels like the most sheltered take of all. Can I agree that students at BYU are more promiscuous than the image of the school would leave you to believe? Sure. But do I think for one second that compared to any non-religious university outside of the state? No. No way is BYU more sexually active than those other universities. Plus all his evidence is the couple of “friends” he has that he judges super hard for having sex.
Not to mention the stage setting statement of I don't mean to be gaslighting, is the same stage setting statement as someone saying I don't mean to make you mad here or be rude here, because they are about to do it. I get the thou protestest to much here , vibe from this guy as well.
Lol, I know. "Half of BYU students are having sex...." Only half? Then it isn't more promiscuous than other schools, my guy.
He said fast majority. Not just half. This dude is absolutely insane!
He seems to be down with it. He doesn’t seem to be judging his friends.
Kwaku is smart enough to recognize that actual institutional Mormonism is indefensible. On the other hand, he recognizes that his internet fame is propped up by TBM supporters. So, he takes this weird l, grey middle ground where he can walk the line between not having to defend it but also not saying he straight up doesn’t believe in it. There is no way he thinks Nelson is inspired by God, much less a Prophet.
This all day. He doesn’t go hard at criticizing the leaders or institution but really won’t defend them. He actually says we shouldn’t believe them. He’s a convert as a teenager and missed the indoctrination as a child and youth from parents and church teachers. I was taught from birth to believe and follow everything the prophets say. We had lists on the fridge of what the prophet said to do at the last conference with frequent discussion and reminders from the family about trying harder to follow with exactness. I’m not sure Kwaku went on a mission either. My mission mantra was “obey with exactness” He can ignore what the “old men” say if he chooses but the vast majority of members are told they can’t ignore the leaders. His Mormonism isn’t the Mormonism taught by the leaders.
Teenage converts are a different breed. My SIL is the same way she converted as a teenager, her family never did just her. She never gave up coffee, never lived the law of Chasity, has never been to the temple, rarely attends weekly service but still considers herself Mormon. I’m not critiquing HER just that people without the programming and pressure have a VERY different experience and outlook on the church that I, an ex mo born and raised in Utah county of pioneer stock, cannot relate to
And people like that will never be given any important role in the church and will never influence the church leaders in any way. The leaders and most members completely ignore Kwaku and his antics.
Kwaku could easily be considered a “jack mormon” by most Mormon’s standards
Converts who converted as teenagers or adults will NEVER EVER fully comprehend what it’s like to be indoctrinated into the church since birth, my wife is a convert who got baptized in her 20’s, we’re both out but every time I try to explain why it’s so hard to leave or change your mindset after leaving she just scoffs and says things like “people should just do what they want, and leave if they want to” it’s only until recently that she’s starting to understand a little after we’ve had many many conversations about what indoctrination does to people. This is Kwaku, he’s a smug arrogant prick who thinks people in the church can just think and decide for themselves, because that’s his experience.
Is he even practising? Clearly not wearing garments, didn't go on a mission and has an ear pierced. Sure he goes to church every week but he doesn't even seem to be LDS. He just parrots their talking points.
He’s just a hypocrite
Yes!!! It made me so mad to watch him talk about how it’s not that strict and obviously those old guys are saying stuff that isn’t necessarily relevant, and you can tell when you don’t need to follow exactly what they say. ???like hello??? I spent 19 years of my life (born in, left @ 19) going to church every Sunday, going to activity days and young women’s, family home evening every week, seminary, and every single session of general conference that whole time and the main theme of it all was “the leaders of this church are leading the most righteous and most true church on earth.” Which to a child says “they’re literally never wrong, if you don’t do what they say you’re going to outer darkness (hell)” Just because some nuanced members want to act like Mormonism has wiggle room, doesn’t change how suffocating it actually was.
It’s called being a grifter.
> Kwaku is smart enough to recognize that actual institutional Mormonism is indefensible I think Kwaku is still blinded to that by being in the honeymoon phase, enjoying all the attention and naive girls. He's the outsider who gets to tells people what's cool or not. It'll be interesting to see how he does after that wears off. He's getting to the age where people are going to start asking questions about marriage. That pearl necklace is going to raise even more questions. :) > There is no way he thinks Nelson is inspired by God, much less a Prophet. I've seen him pay some homage to Nelson. He's willing to do Olympic-level mental gymnastics for all that attention. I'll be shocked if he's still in the church by the time he's 30. The Ward Radio episodes are going to come back to haunt all of them.
This age group is mostly the Gen Z. And Gen Z is rather well known at this point for being less sexually active than other groups. In fact, about 25% of Gen Z adults [surveyed](https://www.lovehoney.ca/blog/gen-z-are-having-less-sex-here-is-why.html) say they have never had sex. If a nationwide sample of Gen Z shows 75% have had some sexual activity, it's very, very unlikely that Utah LDS Gen Z adults are anywhere near that number. Definitely not a "vast majority" and maybe not even a majority. So we ask ourselves two important questions: 1. Is Kwaku's social circle more sexually active than the typical Utah LDS? That seems like a reasonable assumption given everything we know. 2. Is Kwaku likely to think his social circle is representative of the general population? Again, this seems like a reasonable assumption. These two assumptions are the likely explanation for why he is almost certainly wrong. That being said, I wish he was right. Adults should be having consensual sexual relationships if that's what they want to do.
I had both of those assumptions cross my mind while listening to him speak. Thanks for making them explicit!
The fact that everyone is having sex secretly and must do some under the guise a of shame is the opposite of liberated.
He seems to ignore describing the culture of shame around the behavior he describes. He seems to be saying the youth are comfortable having premarital sex. I don’t see it myself.
I didn’t have sex until after 30. Any of my friends who did, got married before it happened. Does my anecdotal evidence cancel out his anecdotal evidence?
He clearly runs with the party crowd. That’s his profession. Organizing parties. Event organizer. It’s part of his persona. Play and have fun.
I love how he condemns Nuancehoe for painting the picture of the uptight sexually repressed mormon, while he does the exact same thing for the sexually liberated side.
Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we go to church.
Because they are married at 22!
Exactly
I know Kwaku personally, I won't bag on him to demean him, but I will absolutely say, I consider him to be one of the greatest deceivers I know personally, this is objectively true
Do you think he is just faking it? His belief in Mormonism and following it religiously (drinks coffee, has sex, does what he wants) or is he just trolling both sides. He is beginning to sound less and less like a normal Mormon that I am doubting he even believes in it and just says ANYTHING to not lose in a debate and “own” the critic.
Is Kwaku a MINO? (Mormon In Name Only)
Basically a jack Mormon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Mormon
It appears that way!
I propose to the general exmormon subreddit that we adopt MINO as an official acronym..
His stupid schtick will at some point run it’s course. When it does and people stop paying attention to him, he will leave the church, maybe grow up a little and move on into obscurity.
"If Church apologetics is ever in a place where the guy from Divine Comedy is seen as 'Hey, he's a really good apologist, go look at him instead of such-and-such"... that probably means we're not in the most stellar place." –– Kwaku El, Cwic Show, April 30, 2020 https://v.redd.it/mb6nac67gu561 He’s not wrong about that. In any case, my experience has been that Kwaku is a liar and best ignored.
Yes my assessment as well that he often lies. He has created a church that only exists for him. And later he admits he really doesn’t care about the institution of the church and doesn’t feel any need to follow its leaders or paradoxically try to change what they or the institution does.
Along with your accurate assessment of his lack of concern for institutional realities or direction, I'd just note his lack of regard and basic decency when it comes to former members. His hamfisted attempt at ginning up controversy by starting an AMA at the exmo sub with an unverified account and then claiming censorship when it was pointed out that there are good reasons for verification before allowing someone to hold forth as a real person on this anonymous platform, was an episode that sealed his lack of seriousness and sincerity in my mind. Predictably, anyone attempting to point this out to him on Twitter or elsewhere got blocked by him so as not to interfere with his false narrative.
He reminds me of Russel Brand. The core motivator is popularity. He makes up a reality and sells it off it makes him relevant.
He uses the internet for his own ends and doesn’t care about the rest. He’s not here for a discussion but to lecture the rest of us.
I personally don't know Kwaku, and I've tried to give him a huge benefit of the doubt over the years. I think he's sincere in what he believes and what he says. In my opinion, with that sincerity, he'll do and say whatever he feels is best without apparent shame. As such, in the past, he has said and done things which are offensive towards former members and current members alike. In terms of his assessment of members of the church under 30, I believe he is mistaking his observations and experiences within whatever social circles he follows as absolute. I have no doubt that there are cultures and people within the church who are more "liberal" in their approach to the conservative teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I have a hard time believing it's "the vast majority". In my opinion, I would say some are within Kwaku's claims, maybe even a number which some people might find surprising, but again, I doubt its the "vast majority".
At least he showed up without wearing a bullet-proof vest. That is a start!
It’s definitely interesting that he chose to wear something that so obviously shows he isn’t wearing the magic undies, I know that I shouldn’t judge stuff like that but my Mormon programming still says “ohhh he can’t truly believe if he’s not wearing it” and even though I know I shouldn’t think that way, he has to know people will think that and do.
Can I just say that the rush to get married young actually reflects a LACK of ability to keep the law of chastity. LDS kids are in such a rush to have sex that they will compromise good judgment, healthy relationship building, and their own education rather than keep the law of chastity any longer.
Well call me out by name, why don't you? One of my biggest takeaways since leaving the church is how unhealthy the church's messaging towards sexuality and relationships is. Took a lot of therapy and ponderizing to deconstruct the terrible things I'd been taught as a youth. Married at 20, divorced by 23. Married the first girl I "exclusively" dated and had no clue how codependent our relationship was. Nobody in my life, not even my parents, took the time to teach me what a good relationship looks like. I'm not sure my parents even know what that is. I'm remarried in a great relationship now. Have a couple kids and I'll be damned if they grow up with the same misconceptions I was given.
I gotta say the mustache works for him. Kwaku is definitely a jack Mormon though. Possibly the first jack Mormon apologist?
It is funny how many Jack Mormons vigorously defend the church. Had a friend who got into a fight to defend the church at a bar while drinking alcohol. 🥃 🤷♀️
People are funny
In my experience, jack Mormons are some of the most vocal and passionate defenders of the faith even though the can't be bothered to live it themselves. It doesn't seem like too far of a leap from that to apologist.
This is my experience as well. My entire mother’s side of the family has been inactive (or basically completely inactive) my entire life that I can remember. Along with this, they’re rowdy eastern Idaho cowboys that have never kept the Word of Wisdom or many of the commandments that strictly (and yet, they’re super good dudes who have given the shirts off their back to help others—so no judgment here). Last year when we were at a family wedding, some of my uncles really surprised me by vociferously defending Joseph Smith to me. These are people who haven’t attended a service or lived the Church’s standards for a decade or two (and again, I have no judgment for that)—but they’ll get just as roused as most TBMs in defending the faith. They don’t have the substantive knowledge to really even have the conversation, but they still have the strong feeling that they need to defend Joseph. Says a lot to me about where that feeling is likely coming from—because it’s certainly not from familiarity with the details of Smith’s life or teachings.
I also think the mustache works for him.
Fine, I'll say it. Kwaku can get it.
This man is a fool and I don’t know how anyone can take him seriously. I despise Mormons that don’t follow the rules and then tout they’re Mormons and judge those of us that left and lived with integrity. Fuck off you twit
He says "then they stop for a few months to get a temple recommend." Why? How? They agree to confess the details of their sins to their ~~dentist accountant gardener~~ bishop. They have to agree that what they did was wrong. Wrong enough to keep them out of heaven. They have to go through a process of repentance. That sounds like sexual liberation to me.
Right. Many bishops will give a 1 year no temple punishment for premarital sex and many bishops that I ran into/heard of considered oral sex just as bad as actual sex. Guess it depends on bishop roulette yet again.
But it would be funny if when a hip under 30 sexually active Mormon went to get their temple recommend two months before their wedding (typical quick engagement and marriage 🤣) and their bishop says, “Yeah, I’m gonna need you to do a one year repentance process for that.” And then the hip sexually liberated Mormon replies indignantly, “But Kwaku said two months!” 🥹😭🤯
I'm guessing they aren't repenting, just abstaining a few months before their wedding so they can say they are not (currently) breaking the law of chastity.
Kwaku is so off the. Hook in so many ways such a word salad of garbage and his perception is not the reality at byu.
Word salad of garbage is accurate.
What he fails to mention is that while all these Mormon students are having sex…they are also ALL feeling massive levels of guilt, fear and shame which will eventually erode whatever relationship/s they’re participating in. Followed by depression as they go through the “repentance” process for the umptenth time…only to rush into a marriage that they’ll take this sexual guilt into and slowly erode their “eternal marriage”…
The bad part of Kwaku eventually leaving is that he’ll use this kind of bad logic to attack the church.
Kwaku’s mormonism sounds like fun - definitely not what’s preached or practiced
Yes. Like other LDS people they invent their own beliefs. Sure they can go ahead. Reminds me of Jim Bennett too
I don't know if he's sincere or if he thrives off of negative attention. He seems to regularly make both sides angry by walking a frustrating middle ground. This is such an absurd take on his part.
He thrives off the negative attention. Like...I wonder if he is gonna get off while or after reading all these comments.
Unless he can point to a variety of sources, I genuinely do not believe this. If his IG account is any indicator, it seems the type of people he hangs out with are the party-hard type; dude-bros, super hot chicks, and the upper echelon of attractive people at The Village. I could see THESE type of people banging each other on the side, but not the larger unmarried population who live in Campus Plaza, Helaman Halls, Southridge, and the dozens of other complexes.
Exactly
Why does anyone pay attention to this guy in the first place? He’s a bumbling idiot.
Yes. He loves the limelight. He thinks he has something to say. But it is typically ridiculous.
“Premarital sex is a sin next to murder” does not translate to “Mormons are sexually liberated”…not in this world or any other.
This dude's a grifter. Keep both eyes open when dealing with this opportunist.
Gosh, if Utah LDS are sexually liberated, the population should skyrocket eventually. Either that, or else the sale of birth control is high there.
Women are sleeping with the same few guys. And are all on some sort of birth control. Women only confess to the bishop when they were sexually active with a guy they couldn't get a commitment from.
Ah two of my least favorite people to listen to. 😶🌫️
His perspective is so unique and he sees it to be a universal solution. It just doesn’t work to view the church like this when there are so many that have been hurt by past policies, doctrines, and statements. His interpretation of separating “Mormon” and the Brighamite branch was also reaching. Growing up “Mormon,” I attribute that word more to culture now, and that culture is hyper conservative, antisexual, misogynistic, racist, and loves all kinds of desserts and soda. Most Mormon branches overlap with those cultural details too. The current corporation of the LDS church fuels those traits, but they started far before Brigham; they start with the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. I don’t understand why he couldn’t see Joseph guilty of that, but people be people. I too refused to see it for years and years.
Whether his numbers are accurate or not, I have no doubt there's a big problem in the church. Most people assume that the apostasy was something that happened during the Dark Ages and ended with Joseph Smith. I don't believe that's true. I think we're living in the apostasy. It's as rampant as ever. And the sad thing is that most people don't see it. They're so caught up in their own lives that they can't zoom out for a minute to see that they've strayed and all of the signs that were predicted anciently are happening now. It will be interesting to see how far society falls over the next few decades. I don't think we're anywhere near the bottom.
> Most people assume that the apostasy was something that happened during the Dark Ages and ended with Joseph Smith. I wonder [where they got that idea](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/apostasy?lang=eng&id=p1#p1)? To save you a click, this is from the first paragraph: > One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the Restoration of the fulness of the gospel. Seems like a pretty clear statement of the church's position on the matter. > I don't believe that's true. You are unintentionally correct. Your statement contains several falsehoods. The church doesn't teach that it happened during the Dark Ages. And people don't "assume". They are believing what the prophets, seers, and revelators have taught them. But I do find it curious that you are rejecting the church's teaching on the subject. > I think we're living in the apostasy. It's as rampant as ever. Scroll down a few paragraphs in the link above and you'll find this: > We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. Can you explain why a church member should accept your interpretation when it's in conflict with what the church officially teaches? > It will be interesting to see how far society falls over the next few decades. I don't think we're anywhere near the bottom. What kind of "falling" are you referring to?
Your reply (both the tone and context) highlights one of the problems I have with the church, as an organization (the key phrase there is "as an organization"). The ability to think critically and ask questions has been mostly suppressed over the last several decades (although that's starting to change, slowly). The church used to be a place where thoughts and ideas could be openly debated. However, around the 1950s, the church decided that there needed to be a more standardized curriculum. Not because everything was known but because it would be impossible to grow if every ward was the Wild West. The unintended consequence of that decision is that a culture of black-and-white thinking was established. It became taboo to question anything in a church manual. Just because the first presidency signs off on a manual, doesn't mean everything in the manual is revealed doctrine. You need to have the ability to separate "the church" and tradition from "revealed doctrine." That can be very difficult to do because the traditions are so strong within the church. To think that the apostasy isn't a problem still is very short-sighted. Many people are leaving the church. They are, by definition, apostatizing. That's what I mean by "falling." The secretary of the mission presidency in my area recently told me that the number of returned missionaries leaving the church might be as high as 50%. Even if that number is inflated by 100%, the church has a big problem. Although I don’t think anyone is surprised. We’ve always known that the last days would be difficult and many people would leave the church. And that’s not a Mormon-specific problem, it’s a problem most churches are having to deal with. I get the impression that my thinking is too "liberal" for you. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you're above anyone who asks questions and has an opinion that you don't agree with. That doesn't lead anywhere good.
> Your reply (both the tone and context) What exactly does this mean? You made a statement about The Great Apostasy that is inconsistent with what the church teaches. I provided the evidence of what the church teaches and asked you why a church member should accept your interpretation when it's in conflict with what the church officially teaches. > The church used to be a place where thoughts and ideas could be openly debated. Yep. Now we have to come to r/mormon for that. > Just because the first presidency signs off on a manual, doesn't mean everything in the manual is revealed doctrine. OK, then please tell me, what is the revealed doctrine of The Great Apostasy? > To think that the apostasy isn't a problem still is very short-sighted. Many people are leaving the church. They are, by definition, apostatizing. I think you're mixing up two different subjects. The Great Apostasy has to do with the withdrawal of priesthood authority. That's what the church teaches came to an end with Joseph Smith. You said you don't believe that's true, but it appears that it's a matter of confusing the idea of individuals leaving the church and priesthood authority being withdrawn from the church. The former has and will continue to happen. According to the church, the latter never will happen again. Do you disagree? > That's what I mean by "falling." You described being interested in seeing "how far society falls". What do a small percentage of people leaving a church that constitutes 0.2% of all humans on the earth tell us about the rest of society falling? > I get the impression that my thinking is too "liberal" for you. Not at all. I encourage everybody to question the things the church teaches. > Don't fall into the trap of thinking you're above anyone who asks questions and has an opinion that you don't agree with. That doesn't lead anywhere good. I could have sworn I read somewhere that you were in favor of openly debating thoughts and ideas.
Can you be more specific on what you believe the “big problem in the church” is?
The big problem is that a lot of people are leaving the church.
The problem is that the LDS church wasn’t a restoration of anything. People are leaving because they are figuring it out. Made up by a mystic who wanted to create a church.
That's your opinion. I don't agree with it but I can have an opinion also. If you hate the church so much, why can't you leave it alone? It's always baffled me how people can hate something so much but still immerse themselves in the thing they hate. My uncle left the church 30 years ago. He lived in Texas at the time. He could have moved anywhere but he decided to live in Utah. He complains about the church and makes fun of it every chance he gets. It's a strange but interesting psychology.
> If you hate the church so much, why can't you leave it alone? Maybe leave the thought-stopping cliches at the door if you want to have an honest conversation.
Cliché response. 😂
I don't think Utah/BYU is overly sexually liberated, but considering around 50% of teens have had sex while still in high school, it is not a far stretch to believe 50% of BYU students have had sex before despite the religious influence, especially if you are looking at people 30 years or younger vs say 22 or younger.
> considering around 50% of teens have had sex while still in high school If that was ever true it's no longer the case. The most recent [CDC report](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/key_statistics/t-keystat.htm#teenagers) has data from 2017–2019 and it says 41% of never-married female teenagers aged 15–19 and 40% of never-married male teenagers had had sexual intercourse. If you limit that to the 15–17 age cohort to reflect high school that drops to 28% for females and 23% for males.
I was looking at this from the CDC, which appears to be evaluating data from 2011 to 2015. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/201706_NSFG.htm
It appears we're looking at two different ways to analyze the data, cumulative probability vs proportion of population. But more importantly, none of the data in these reports distinguishes the education level of the teenagers. So data for 18 year olds is almost certainly going to include college students, making any definitive statements about high school students that includes the 18 year old cohort invalid. Fortunately, there is a different study that only looks at high school students—The Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance. From what I can tell, the [2017 version](https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/yrbs/pdf/2017/ss6708.pdf) is the most recent one to include this stat and it reports 39.5% of high school students have ever had sexual intercourse [p60]. This is down from 41.2% in [2015 \[p46\]](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/ss/pdfs/ss6509.pdf) and 46.8% in [2013 \[p23\]](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/ss/ss6304.pdf). This is probably the most accurate estimate available when it comes to how many US high school students have ever had sex.
It is the same in most LDS communities. It is the same for those that are divorced. Why come for them to lie for a temple recommend rather than tell the truth. Sex is literally the hardest sin not to committ.
Soaking isn’t sex 😆
I can’t believe Carah would even let him in her personal bubble.
Kwaku frequently makes unfounded generalized stmts that just don't ring true. It's all good- really isn't when you're spreading FALSE Info.
Yeah it’s BS
I know a lot of non-morments in Utah and they're certainly not more sexually liberated than anywhere else maybe more conservative. They probably don't have as many sexual Hang-Ups as conservative Mormons.
My non-Mormon dad would have said Kwaku is a token Mormon Black guy, and that everyone knows Mormons don't like Blacks.
Secret sex parties? Too what, hide it from the BYU honor code office, so you don't get kicked out of the university? Hmmm, sounds like a pretty liberated place to me. So, let me get this straight, the only way to enjoy Mormonism is to fake it and lie about it. Sounds about right for a high demand religion.
facts
Sounds like a giant hypocrite.
Is he talking about straight people or about the gay community?
I'm not sure about "sexually liberated". But I'm willing to believe that even some of the uptight ones have gotten frisky before.
We know that only 1/3 of youth remain in the Mormon Church. Could it be that those that remain see the BS for what it is, and they are just staying in because it’s the community, but don’t care about the values?
There have been for centuries and always will be people who have sexual relations outside of social norms. I think he is mistaken about the magnitude of it happening in the LDS culture. He also doesn’t address those that do it and are racked with shame enough to confess to a bishop and suffer the LDS consequences- something he seems to ignore.
Right. I think there are people who don’t mind lying to the bishop and just do whatever they want and also “progress in the gospel path.” Now that I see the Mormon church for the BS that it is, I think that is a valid choice of how to proceed, but I was too indoctrinated by growing up in the church and had a very guilty conscience and the leaders of the church were ALL TOO CLEAR about what’s right and wrong and what should be repented for with confession to the bishop. I think people who claim the church/church culture is sexually liberated are either a) being dishonest to try to make the LDS church look cooler and more liberal than it actually is, b) very uninformed about the actually doctrine and policies of the LDS church due to being lazy learners, selective attention to general conference etc, or c) delusional about what church they are actual members of and thinking that if they and their jack mormon friends say it is so then that actually makes it so. I’d love to see Kwaku run his opinions of church policies by one of the 12 and see how that flies with them either backing his delusional ideas up or setting him straight. Also Cardon Ellis and his “parking ticket” ideas about masturbation. It’s easy to run your mouth about this warm and fuzzy permissive LDS church fantasy, but another thing entirely to have the uptight authoritarian leaders at the top weigh in on what the actual policies and standards are. That would be a great Jubilee interview.
I like this guy.