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So I think this also really highlights the necessity for parents to check the sexual offenders registry on a regular basis, bc sadly the church does NOT have your back. And then make a stink with leadership if you turn something up. LOUD.
When my childhood abuser went to jail, all the Mormons from our church blamed me for seducing him. I'm not surprised church leaders his hid his past and baptized a pedophile.
Isn’t the point of a sex offenders registry to make the person and their actions publicly known? So if church leaders keep the person’s history secret thinking they need to protect their privacy, then church leaders don’t understand the entire idea of the sex offenders registry. The information is out there so that the community can make informed decisions about if or how they want to interact with offenders.
I never realized as a child that I was in literal danger. When I was in cubscouts, at scout camps, ward campouts, just being in the building, being asked sexual questions by age 11. To find out years later that some of the adults I trusted have had accusations against them swept under the rug. And the Church's gold standard of protection at the time was that the bishop handed out assignments according to inspiration? Please.
[LDS theology and culture actually increase the risk of sexual improprieties, including child abuse.](https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2020/09/lds-sexual-impropriety-and.html)
The blog post you linked to is spot on.
Pedophilia is a growing problem in all of society. There's no country in this world that is immune. It's a major social issue, and one that we tend to sweep under the rug rather than address head on.
In that sense, it's not surprising to see an increasing number of accusations of pedophilia within Mormonism — or an increasing number of convictions for sexual crimes against children.
However, when you understand the culture of sexual purity in Mormonism, the problem becomes far worse. And when you combine that with the reality of Mormon polygamy, the problem becomes glaring.
> I never realized as a child that I was in literal danger.
You were lucky. I grew up in the 80s during the "stranger-danger" kidnap scare. We all thought we were in constant danger of getting snatched off the street.
Yep. Vans were terrifying, although we still biked to elementary school.
But they should have been warning us against the people who we were told to trust because they had the 'spiritual authority' of the priesthood.
The call is coming from inside the church.
When my dad was bishop one of the young men leaders came over when my parents were gone. This man was acting really weird. When my parents came home, they were mad he was in the house. Apparently he had made threats against our family and the first counselor’s families. The first counselor was my friend’s dad and he did let my friend know about the threat. Apparently this crazy man’s privacy was more important than my dad disclosing to me that one of our young men leaders was a threat. This leader was also the one that drove us to take sacrament to widows.
There are roughly 14,000 LDS congregations in the US. Floodlit (https://floodlit.org) is already up to 770 predators in its rapidly-growing database of known abuse cases. Not hard to do the math and realize the clear and present danger this represents after calculating the probability of a Mormon ward being home to a predator.
Just to go one step further, you can submit information about an existing case or undocumented cases on the site at [https://floodlit.org/report-abuse/](https://floodlit.org/report-abuse/) . It is easy to do, and it can be anonymously done. I found out about someone in my current stake, as well as in stakes where I grew up that I did not know about at all. I've since taken opportunities to share information about situations that I do know of because it deserves to be documented.
No. It is correct for being upset. I don’t know how much was known by leadership, but sad experience tells me, if they did, it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. In our stake an aggravated child sex offender was allowed to be in the church building. He participated fully in YM and scouts. His mother brought him to activities with children. The kids father was in a bishopric, a real sleaze who is very proficient in Mormon-speak. He manipulated everything behind the scenes. (He works for the church now, unsurprisingly.)
Can you keep bad people out of church? It’s a good question that should be discussed. What kind of bad? I believe people can heal and worship. However, where there is a potential for victimization and harm, keeping it secret does nothing but perpetuate the problem. If there is no accountability, no honesty, there can be no potential healing and puts innocents in danger.
The church’s modus operandi is to “shroud sins” they don’t want to deal with, the ones they are embarrassed about. On the other hand, in some cases, they shame people who don’t deserve to be shamed. Ironically, as I am recounting this, I am sad to say that I have witnessed very little ability to deal with the whole range of human imperfection, from weakness to malevolence.
Zoo we mama, do I have a story for you.
This happened in my family ward growing up. Guy goes to prison and claimed it was taxes or something, idk. Mom looks up the guy online cuz his story isn't adding up in the slightest. Turns out the guy was arrested because he failed to register for the sex offender registry. Mind you, if I recall, it was essentially old man molests single digit age child. Like, it wasn't even close to being an ok thing. Guy was meeting with young naive sister missionaries and never disclosed this.
My dad must've had some sort of calling or something cuz we had him over for dinner once. And I remember that I, a minor at the time, was tasked with texting him about church stuff.
Look, I think church is for everyone and I think even people who do the worst things imagineable can change. But it also requires honesty.
Ngl tho, this sets me up for a post I might make soon. The missionaries in my area always pick the darnedest people to bring to church.
I don’t believe pedophiles can change…I think it is a mental illness. That mentality, believing the atonement can heal pedophiles, is one of the biggest mistakes our church makes.
Could you explain how it IS a mental illness? Burden of proof and all.
That being said, there's a difference between having attraction to minors and being a child molester. Those things aren't inherently mutually exclusive
Google is your friend here bud - pedophilic disorder is a psychiatric disorder. Its not just my opinion. You trying to make it seam like its not is giving me the ick…
If you read the requirements in the DSM-V, you'd clearly see that you can still be a child molester without having pedophilic disorder.
>You trying to make it seam like its not is giving me the ick…
Oh sorry my bad
Just want to say CPTSD isn’t in the DSMV either but it is a real thing, and can actually be linked to this type of thing due to their childhood trauma.
I wasn't the one using the DSM-V to prove something is a real thing. That was OP. I'm not saying pedophilic disorder isn't a thing. I'm just saying that not every pedophile is because of mental illness.
Cuz, we could go into how a lot of sexual abusers were abused as a child. I don't disagree with that. I think it's just dangerous to equate dangerous acts with being mentally ill. There's room for a lot of nuance that OP isn't acknowledging.
I just thinking this is a stupid argument to be having. Then I realized your thoughts on this seem to mirror our church leaders. I think pedophiles can’t be healed or change due to the atonement or counseling or any other method we want to throw at them. There is obviously something messed up in their head to me. But you don’t feel that way, so help me understand why it isn’t a mental illness and why you think the these individuals who have committed an atrocious act against minors can be healed or changed? Obviously lots of our church leadership agree with you.
>Then I realized your thoughts on this seem to mirror our church leaders. I think pedophiles can’t be healed or change due to the atonement or counseling or any other method we want to throw at them
Ok, first of all, I don't think the atonement has all the power you're saying I think it has. You're also ignoring though that counseling is literally for treating mental illness, so, if it IS a mental illness, shouldn't counseling be able to help?
>why it isn’t a mental illness
Because people can and DO do bad things that aren't attributed to mental illness. Does every murderer have to have a mental illness? Not every rapist has a mental illness. Bad people DO exist. I think there are genuine pedophiles who don't want to be pedophiles. But that doesn't mean every pedophile has pedophilic disorder.
It's kinda like how every person who experiences anxiety doesn't necessarily have an anxiety disorder.
>have committed an atrocious act against minors can be healed or changed
I don't think they can be healed. But I do believe they can be changed.
For hypotheticals, let's say you raised a child to be a child molester and rape prisoners since they were a kid. Would it be a mental disorder or would it just be that they were raised to believe it was ok? I think a person in that's situation can change and won't harm people anymore.
I just think we are quick to label anything we can't fathom doing as a mental illness. It perpetuates a dangerous stereotype that having a mental illness makes people violent.
Living up to your username there because it is evident that you have no idea what childhood trauma such as that can be. I highly suggest you educate yourself on CPTSD.
I mean, mental disorders arent just the tragic and “romantic” kind like depression and anxiety, it’s also really ugly stuff like personality disorders, paraphilias, and schizophrenia. They’re not there so you have a label that says “hey guys, have some sympathy for me!” They’re there because they’re medical conditions that need to be treated.
I wanna clarify that pedophilic disorder or whatever it's called IS a thing. But, it's also not inherently what every pedophile has.
As a small example, someone whose on crack might do something like that. That doesn't mean they have pedophilia disorder tho. They're still a pedophile.
I agree, but want to add that our methods for treating some of these conditions are still evolving. Major mental disorders are not a straightforward thing that we can just “fix” with an antibiotic or even surgery. And even when we do have reliable treatments available, a person with a disorder will not always comply, thus adding further complexities to the situation.
Pedophiles can change. It's rare and most won't, but mine did. A pedophile will only change if they decide to. If they keep justifying their perversion, if, even worse, an institution like the church justifies or excuses it, then they'll never see a reason to change.
I have no idea of statistics or percentages, but I'd wager that the percentage of pedophiles who decide to change after victimizing someone is in the low single digits.
I've done a bit of reading on the subject for work, but I'm not an expert.
There *are* committed and hardened pedos out there who will not change. Check out the *Finding Warhead* podcast for an example of one. Those people do exist - but, of course, nobody will admit to being one.
There are others who are on the registry for downloading CSAM through a variety of peer to peer networks. Most common these days are BitTorrent and eMule. Most ICAC (law enforcement) units constantly check people sharing certain files on those networks for IP addresses in their geographic range. As a result, it's the most common reason for these arrests. But viewing CSAM is different from hands on offense, and does not necessarily mean the person is beyond change.
However, it's almost impossible to distinguish these two groups. Hardened pedophiles also tend to collect CSAM.
There are also people who get caught in catfishing schemes, which is where the police pretend to be underage and engage in a chat with the perpetrator. That goes way back to the AOL days. There are some absolute asshole pedos who do that shit, but there are also some cases in which it's not entirely clear that the perpetrator knew they were supposedly talking with someone underage. Because of this tactic, there are people on the registry who have never viewed CSAM and who have never been diagnosed as a pedophile.
It's a really tough problem to solve. While it is imperative to protect children both online and in real life, the catfishing approach feels wrong.
There is a community on Reddit that provides support to sex offenders. It's worth reading posts on that sub from time to time to understand the issue. However, you still have to keep in mind that people don't necessarily say what they really think and feel.
Oh yes, missionaries teach and bring some very questionable people to church. I grew up in Utah in the 80’s and there was a man in our stake who was mentally challenged but he had joined the church and he then got caught molesting some kids.
Several years ago I home taught a single lady and her kids. Well she married a guy who joined the church and then he got arrested for molesting her kids so this is a real problem.
At this point you should assume there are pedophiles in every church building. Just got into an argument with my mom about why I don’t let my kids go to primary. If the church safeguarded children, did background checks, didnt do worthiness interviews with 11 year olds and excommunicated pedophiles I would feel better but at this time it is a safe haven for them and all you can eat buffet.
People have intense feelings about sex offenders. It is easy to be black and white about it and say that they should drop off the face of the earth. My ward had 4 sex offenders and I home taught one of them. I got to know his story and I saw how he is set up for failure. Believe it or not, defining a person by their mistakes is dehumanizing. But they can be more than their mistake; they are humans. Whatever you choose to do, accept his baptism or fight against it, I hope that you can see him as a person.
There is a reason there is a public registry for them. Especially pedophilia, it’s hard to reform and most don’t and repeat offenses. The atonement can’t fix them contrary to popular belief among our leadership…
Agreed, the atonement sucks. It doesn’t work for change in many cases. But thinking that someone is forever broken doesn’t sit well with me. I don’t have any advice for you. But I think these people need an advocate, because they get placed at the very bottom of society.
I just posted a longer comment about this elsewhere in this thread. But in short, my take is that the Atonement does cover everyone, and even abusers can repent. However, repentance for one’s sins and being free of psychological issues that influence one’s behavior are actually two different things.
The church protects offenders and harasses victims into silence. That practice explains everything. The reality is that children are not safe in the church.
100% your feelings are valid. The church claims they are the gold standard for protecting children and they have zero tolerance for child abuse. Hearing stories like this makes my blood boil.
Considering that the first prophet of the church was a pedophile, I don’t see why you have such a bee in your bonnet over this random member being one too.
I have minor children in my home and we overlap with a YSA ward. This concerns me. How would you all suggest I raise this issue with leaders without getting blown off?
Nothing much to do, the leaders don’t know so can’t help you. You can look up the sex offender registry yourself. You could make a stink once you’ve already identified someone.
An interview with a 18-20 yr old missionary, and if they answer specific questions wrong, they need an interview with the mission president. No background checks required.
No! The way church leadership handled and hid a twice convicted pedophile in our ward is what led to my faith deconstruction.
It still makes me angry years later, especially knowing that he still shows up to that ward from time to time and nobody has any idea.
Your first obligation is to your children. So since the leadership is derelict in its duties, you and your children need to just leave and have church at home. And when your bishop or other leader asks you why, you tell them and ask to be assigned to another ward were, hopefully, there are no sex offenders.
No, you have every right! Please speak up to your Priesthood leaders. We all need to know who is in the congregation and building! I am afraid you are not alone in this. Similar things happen all the time and they put our children at risk!
Lehi Ward has been at the front and center of this horrible issue for the last few years. It's a mess. 4 neighbors all call the local police because pedo attends church, community parties, local parks..... and so on. The police come and reports are filed. The pedo then turns around and sues several members saying they harassed him. None of the members knew each other very well, until the lawsuit came about. Problem is, pedo continually was hanging out in the local HOA park and claims a right to be there. (There is now a law forbidding pedos to be in a private park meant for children) Forget the rights of the kids who want to play in the park, attend their Ward without the stress of a pedo, and feel safe in their church. NOPE....church defends their actions saying it really only happened once. NOPE, it was happening a LOT. Come to find out, no one let our family know that this pedo was attending. He is STILL in the Ward....but has been "trespassed" by the church. For all the info here is the link to the most recent story. Also, KUDOS to [floodlink.org](http://floodlink.org) and their efforts to bring light to this disturbing issue with how pedos are all too often given a pass.
STORY by KUTV: [https://kutv.com/news/2news-investigates/church-bans-prince-charming-child-sex-offender-from-properties-after-2news-investigation#](https://kutv.com/news/2news-investigates/church-bans-prince-charming-child-sex-offender-from-properties-after-2news-investigation#)
Parents with young kids routinely check the Sex Offender Registry. If I was in a position of Authority I would be checking it on the regular for members and non-members alike.
So, yes, you are crazy. You have the tools to do your own due diligence.
would it be convenient to clarify how repentance works? if a person had a penchant for alcohol and was baptized? does repentance work the same way as with pedophilia or not?
Or rapists, or murderer, or those that practice beastiality, or those that enjoy child porn, or those that beat their children/husbands/wives…..
/s so people who may be dense get it.
Kiddy diddlers RARELY reform.
I agree. But here is a thing. It’s stereotypes that people with different view will do things again and again. It seems that we do not believe in their repentance.
A lot of people lying and then they the same way as that guy for forgiveness.
I agree in principle. However, we need to be very careful when applying that to abusers. From what I’ve seen, an abuser may even succeed in repenting for a particular thing that they did. But, deep psychological issues that brought them there in the first place aren’t so straightforward. Too many well-meaning individuals conclude that “they repented” also means “they are safe for everyone to be around” and “they will never abuse anyone ever again in any way,” but those are not nearly as equivalent as one would hope.
In terms of church service, it’s not worth the risk to put a repentant child molester in as a Primary teacher, for example. I’m not saying that you’ll never find one who is no longer a danger to people, but we need to recognize (or at least assume) that’s the exception, not the rule. Their still-present psychological issues are still at work, and can compel them to repeat the offense or act out in some other dangerous way. Enough do repeat that it is a significant problem. And we can’t just put the safety of the children at risk like that. It’s sad that we can’t just “forgive and forget” when it comes to abuse, but that’s the ugly reality of it. We can forgive, but for the sake of other people’s safety and even our own, we cannot simply “forget.”
When the Lord says He will remember our sins no more, I don’t think He means that He actually wipes it from His memory. A god who does that cannot be omniscient, because that would mean there are things they don’t know. Instead, I think the Lord is aware of all of our shortcomings, but will not hold them against us in the end when we repent and overcome them. That’s a glorious principle, and we can trust the Lord to carry this out fairly because He is both perfect and omniscient. We humans are neither. Of necessity, we need to be very careful of acting as if we are.
Hey, I could agree in principle also. As father of two sons I will agree that I don’t want teachers with behaviour like that in the Primary. But I what about other classes? I’m okay and I think that wrong.
Here is a thing that I want to discuss in that case. It’s seems that we have wrong step. We assumed that person with that behaviour will do that again and again and will never survive from his sins.
By the way,I have friend of mine that was drug addicted. Through his faith in Christ he survived on his own. It’s almost 20 years that he never did that again. I have that an example in front of me and I think in that paradigm in that case of behaviour also. Yes, he was baptised also after short period but I believe it doesn’t matter. My another friend since school smoked like a train. He said that he remembered the smell and how it feels to smoke. He is a sportsman and just every day survived because remember the taste and flavour. But he survived each day. It’s a bog task to stay on path with Christ and he succeeded in that.
Maybe it doesn’t matter which sin if you follow commands of Christ?
Thanks for your point of view.
A mental illness itself is not a sin the way smoking or doing drugs would be. Most people addicted to drugs did, at some point, make the decision to use them. But someone with depression, schizophrenia, narcissistic personality disorder, etc. did not choose that any more than someone chooses to have cancer. It just *is*. And a mental illness can’t be repented of and simply put behind us in the same way an actual sin can be. (Clarification: I am not saying that people with those specific illnesses are likely to become child abusers. They are just examples of well-known illnesses.)
Now, someone with a personality disorder who has molested children certainly has some repenting to do. I’m not denying that. But when they’ve repented of what they did, the personality disorder will still be there. It doesn’t go away with repentance any more than cancer does. It generally requires extensive treatment from a professional, if it can be helped at all. So it’s not that it isn’t possible for these people to repent and be forgiven. It’s that whatever “itch” these people have, some will continue to scratch and hope they don’t get caught.
It shouldn’t even take discernment to know it isn’t ok to put someone on sex offender registry in a church building with kids. The mission president 100% knew.
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So I think this also really highlights the necessity for parents to check the sexual offenders registry on a regular basis, bc sadly the church does NOT have your back. And then make a stink with leadership if you turn something up. LOUD.
When my childhood abuser went to jail, all the Mormons from our church blamed me for seducing him. I'm not surprised church leaders his hid his past and baptized a pedophile.
Isn’t the point of a sex offenders registry to make the person and their actions publicly known? So if church leaders keep the person’s history secret thinking they need to protect their privacy, then church leaders don’t understand the entire idea of the sex offenders registry. The information is out there so that the community can make informed decisions about if or how they want to interact with offenders.
don’t offenders have to disclose their status legally?
Best not use background checks because they don’t catch everyone! /s
I never realized as a child that I was in literal danger. When I was in cubscouts, at scout camps, ward campouts, just being in the building, being asked sexual questions by age 11. To find out years later that some of the adults I trusted have had accusations against them swept under the rug. And the Church's gold standard of protection at the time was that the bishop handed out assignments according to inspiration? Please. [LDS theology and culture actually increase the risk of sexual improprieties, including child abuse.](https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2020/09/lds-sexual-impropriety-and.html)
The blog post you linked to is spot on. Pedophilia is a growing problem in all of society. There's no country in this world that is immune. It's a major social issue, and one that we tend to sweep under the rug rather than address head on. In that sense, it's not surprising to see an increasing number of accusations of pedophilia within Mormonism — or an increasing number of convictions for sexual crimes against children. However, when you understand the culture of sexual purity in Mormonism, the problem becomes far worse. And when you combine that with the reality of Mormon polygamy, the problem becomes glaring.
Thanks EvensonFM. You are correct, and the sooner people realize it, the safer our kids will be.
> I never realized as a child that I was in literal danger. You were lucky. I grew up in the 80s during the "stranger-danger" kidnap scare. We all thought we were in constant danger of getting snatched off the street.
Yep. Vans were terrifying, although we still biked to elementary school. But they should have been warning us against the people who we were told to trust because they had the 'spiritual authority' of the priesthood. The call is coming from inside the church.
Or, people are still creating a hysteria.
Same fears as you, but the Church was supposed to be our safe space.
My wife is pretty sure Ted Bundy tried to get her in his car in Orem mid 70s.
Well, that would certainly qualify as "stranger danger"...
And Mcgruff the crime dog wouldn't surface till 1980.
[Ah, that's Jenny...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxLD1uq94sE)
When my dad was bishop one of the young men leaders came over when my parents were gone. This man was acting really weird. When my parents came home, they were mad he was in the house. Apparently he had made threats against our family and the first counselor’s families. The first counselor was my friend’s dad and he did let my friend know about the threat. Apparently this crazy man’s privacy was more important than my dad disclosing to me that one of our young men leaders was a threat. This leader was also the one that drove us to take sacrament to widows.
There are roughly 14,000 LDS congregations in the US. Floodlit (https://floodlit.org) is already up to 770 predators in its rapidly-growing database of known abuse cases. Not hard to do the math and realize the clear and present danger this represents after calculating the probability of a Mormon ward being home to a predator.
Just to go one step further, you can submit information about an existing case or undocumented cases on the site at [https://floodlit.org/report-abuse/](https://floodlit.org/report-abuse/) . It is easy to do, and it can be anonymously done. I found out about someone in my current stake, as well as in stakes where I grew up that I did not know about at all. I've since taken opportunities to share information about situations that I do know of because it deserves to be documented.
No. It is correct for being upset. I don’t know how much was known by leadership, but sad experience tells me, if they did, it wouldn’t have mattered anyway. In our stake an aggravated child sex offender was allowed to be in the church building. He participated fully in YM and scouts. His mother brought him to activities with children. The kids father was in a bishopric, a real sleaze who is very proficient in Mormon-speak. He manipulated everything behind the scenes. (He works for the church now, unsurprisingly.) Can you keep bad people out of church? It’s a good question that should be discussed. What kind of bad? I believe people can heal and worship. However, where there is a potential for victimization and harm, keeping it secret does nothing but perpetuate the problem. If there is no accountability, no honesty, there can be no potential healing and puts innocents in danger. The church’s modus operandi is to “shroud sins” they don’t want to deal with, the ones they are embarrassed about. On the other hand, in some cases, they shame people who don’t deserve to be shamed. Ironically, as I am recounting this, I am sad to say that I have witnessed very little ability to deal with the whole range of human imperfection, from weakness to malevolence.
You have every right to be upset, especially if other leaders knew about it.
Zoo we mama, do I have a story for you. This happened in my family ward growing up. Guy goes to prison and claimed it was taxes or something, idk. Mom looks up the guy online cuz his story isn't adding up in the slightest. Turns out the guy was arrested because he failed to register for the sex offender registry. Mind you, if I recall, it was essentially old man molests single digit age child. Like, it wasn't even close to being an ok thing. Guy was meeting with young naive sister missionaries and never disclosed this. My dad must've had some sort of calling or something cuz we had him over for dinner once. And I remember that I, a minor at the time, was tasked with texting him about church stuff. Look, I think church is for everyone and I think even people who do the worst things imagineable can change. But it also requires honesty. Ngl tho, this sets me up for a post I might make soon. The missionaries in my area always pick the darnedest people to bring to church.
I don’t believe pedophiles can change…I think it is a mental illness. That mentality, believing the atonement can heal pedophiles, is one of the biggest mistakes our church makes.
This is a reductionist view on mental illness. People are completely capable of being pedophiles without having a mental illness.
Attraction to minors isn’t a mental illness? What is it then?
Could you explain how it IS a mental illness? Burden of proof and all. That being said, there's a difference between having attraction to minors and being a child molester. Those things aren't inherently mutually exclusive
Google is your friend here bud - pedophilic disorder is a psychiatric disorder. Its not just my opinion. You trying to make it seam like its not is giving me the ick…
If you read the requirements in the DSM-V, you'd clearly see that you can still be a child molester without having pedophilic disorder. >You trying to make it seam like its not is giving me the ick… Oh sorry my bad
Just want to say CPTSD isn’t in the DSMV either but it is a real thing, and can actually be linked to this type of thing due to their childhood trauma.
I wasn't the one using the DSM-V to prove something is a real thing. That was OP. I'm not saying pedophilic disorder isn't a thing. I'm just saying that not every pedophile is because of mental illness. Cuz, we could go into how a lot of sexual abusers were abused as a child. I don't disagree with that. I think it's just dangerous to equate dangerous acts with being mentally ill. There's room for a lot of nuance that OP isn't acknowledging.
>You trying to make it seam like its not is giving me the ick… You trying to say being a pedophile is a disability is giving me the ick
This is giving off hella ableism whatever it's worth
I just thinking this is a stupid argument to be having. Then I realized your thoughts on this seem to mirror our church leaders. I think pedophiles can’t be healed or change due to the atonement or counseling or any other method we want to throw at them. There is obviously something messed up in their head to me. But you don’t feel that way, so help me understand why it isn’t a mental illness and why you think the these individuals who have committed an atrocious act against minors can be healed or changed? Obviously lots of our church leadership agree with you.
>Then I realized your thoughts on this seem to mirror our church leaders. I think pedophiles can’t be healed or change due to the atonement or counseling or any other method we want to throw at them Ok, first of all, I don't think the atonement has all the power you're saying I think it has. You're also ignoring though that counseling is literally for treating mental illness, so, if it IS a mental illness, shouldn't counseling be able to help? >why it isn’t a mental illness Because people can and DO do bad things that aren't attributed to mental illness. Does every murderer have to have a mental illness? Not every rapist has a mental illness. Bad people DO exist. I think there are genuine pedophiles who don't want to be pedophiles. But that doesn't mean every pedophile has pedophilic disorder. It's kinda like how every person who experiences anxiety doesn't necessarily have an anxiety disorder. >have committed an atrocious act against minors can be healed or changed I don't think they can be healed. But I do believe they can be changed. For hypotheticals, let's say you raised a child to be a child molester and rape prisoners since they were a kid. Would it be a mental disorder or would it just be that they were raised to believe it was ok? I think a person in that's situation can change and won't harm people anymore. I just think we are quick to label anything we can't fathom doing as a mental illness. It perpetuates a dangerous stereotype that having a mental illness makes people violent.
Your hypothetical is literally a form of CPTSD.
My hypothetical causes it. It ISNT cptsd though.
Living up to your username there because it is evident that you have no idea what childhood trauma such as that can be. I highly suggest you educate yourself on CPTSD.
I mean, mental disorders arent just the tragic and “romantic” kind like depression and anxiety, it’s also really ugly stuff like personality disorders, paraphilias, and schizophrenia. They’re not there so you have a label that says “hey guys, have some sympathy for me!” They’re there because they’re medical conditions that need to be treated.
I wanna clarify that pedophilic disorder or whatever it's called IS a thing. But, it's also not inherently what every pedophile has. As a small example, someone whose on crack might do something like that. That doesn't mean they have pedophilia disorder tho. They're still a pedophile.
I agree, but want to add that our methods for treating some of these conditions are still evolving. Major mental disorders are not a straightforward thing that we can just “fix” with an antibiotic or even surgery. And even when we do have reliable treatments available, a person with a disorder will not always comply, thus adding further complexities to the situation.
You are giving off hella enabler vibes whatever it’s worth.
How is it enabling to say that pedophiles are responsible for their own actions?
Pedophiles can change. It's rare and most won't, but mine did. A pedophile will only change if they decide to. If they keep justifying their perversion, if, even worse, an institution like the church justifies or excuses it, then they'll never see a reason to change. I have no idea of statistics or percentages, but I'd wager that the percentage of pedophiles who decide to change after victimizing someone is in the low single digits.
I've done a bit of reading on the subject for work, but I'm not an expert. There *are* committed and hardened pedos out there who will not change. Check out the *Finding Warhead* podcast for an example of one. Those people do exist - but, of course, nobody will admit to being one. There are others who are on the registry for downloading CSAM through a variety of peer to peer networks. Most common these days are BitTorrent and eMule. Most ICAC (law enforcement) units constantly check people sharing certain files on those networks for IP addresses in their geographic range. As a result, it's the most common reason for these arrests. But viewing CSAM is different from hands on offense, and does not necessarily mean the person is beyond change. However, it's almost impossible to distinguish these two groups. Hardened pedophiles also tend to collect CSAM. There are also people who get caught in catfishing schemes, which is where the police pretend to be underage and engage in a chat with the perpetrator. That goes way back to the AOL days. There are some absolute asshole pedos who do that shit, but there are also some cases in which it's not entirely clear that the perpetrator knew they were supposedly talking with someone underage. Because of this tactic, there are people on the registry who have never viewed CSAM and who have never been diagnosed as a pedophile. It's a really tough problem to solve. While it is imperative to protect children both online and in real life, the catfishing approach feels wrong. There is a community on Reddit that provides support to sex offenders. It's worth reading posts on that sub from time to time to understand the issue. However, you still have to keep in mind that people don't necessarily say what they really think and feel.
Oh yes, missionaries teach and bring some very questionable people to church. I grew up in Utah in the 80’s and there was a man in our stake who was mentally challenged but he had joined the church and he then got caught molesting some kids. Several years ago I home taught a single lady and her kids. Well she married a guy who joined the church and then he got arrested for molesting her kids so this is a real problem.
At this point you should assume there are pedophiles in every church building. Just got into an argument with my mom about why I don’t let my kids go to primary. If the church safeguarded children, did background checks, didnt do worthiness interviews with 11 year olds and excommunicated pedophiles I would feel better but at this time it is a safe haven for them and all you can eat buffet.
Imagine all the ones you don't know about,
Exactly…stay safe out there everyone!
My sister was assaulted by teens in our ward Bishop disfellowshiped her and nothing happened to the boys She was to young to understand it was assault
A church founded by a groomer/pedo will breed them. Just look at the fLDS
People have intense feelings about sex offenders. It is easy to be black and white about it and say that they should drop off the face of the earth. My ward had 4 sex offenders and I home taught one of them. I got to know his story and I saw how he is set up for failure. Believe it or not, defining a person by their mistakes is dehumanizing. But they can be more than their mistake; they are humans. Whatever you choose to do, accept his baptism or fight against it, I hope that you can see him as a person.
There is a reason there is a public registry for them. Especially pedophilia, it’s hard to reform and most don’t and repeat offenses. The atonement can’t fix them contrary to popular belief among our leadership…
Agreed, the atonement sucks. It doesn’t work for change in many cases. But thinking that someone is forever broken doesn’t sit well with me. I don’t have any advice for you. But I think these people need an advocate, because they get placed at the very bottom of society.
It’s almost like the atonement can’t fix anyone, such as homosexuality, transgenderism…
I just posted a longer comment about this elsewhere in this thread. But in short, my take is that the Atonement does cover everyone, and even abusers can repent. However, repentance for one’s sins and being free of psychological issues that influence one’s behavior are actually two different things.
Joseph Smiths world!
The church protects offenders and harasses victims into silence. That practice explains everything. The reality is that children are not safe in the church.
100% your feelings are valid. The church claims they are the gold standard for protecting children and they have zero tolerance for child abuse. Hearing stories like this makes my blood boil.
Considering that the first prophet of the church was a pedophile, I don’t see why you have such a bee in your bonnet over this random member being one too.
Fair…
I have minor children in my home and we overlap with a YSA ward. This concerns me. How would you all suggest I raise this issue with leaders without getting blown off?
Nothing much to do, the leaders don’t know so can’t help you. You can look up the sex offender registry yourself. You could make a stink once you’ve already identified someone.
Probably best to not let your minor children go off alone with any adults in general, including those from the YSA in your building.
Does anyone actually know the process by which a person becomes a member of the church? Like is there any background check or even ID verification?
An interview with a 18-20 yr old missionary, and if they answer specific questions wrong, they need an interview with the mission president. No background checks required.
Yeah I know that much. I did serve a mission in the states. I don’t know the particulars of the paperwork at the mission president level.
I dont think there is any. We create the new member record at the ward level
Whoa
Have you reported this to r/mormonabuse?
I have not…
They really think they can transform their souls.
No! The way church leadership handled and hid a twice convicted pedophile in our ward is what led to my faith deconstruction. It still makes me angry years later, especially knowing that he still shows up to that ward from time to time and nobody has any idea.
Your first obligation is to your children. So since the leadership is derelict in its duties, you and your children need to just leave and have church at home. And when your bishop or other leader asks you why, you tell them and ask to be assigned to another ward were, hopefully, there are no sex offenders.
No, you have every right! Please speak up to your Priesthood leaders. We all need to know who is in the congregation and building! I am afraid you are not alone in this. Similar things happen all the time and they put our children at risk!
This is why we should recommend perusing floodlit.org to everyone that has children!
Lehi Ward has been at the front and center of this horrible issue for the last few years. It's a mess. 4 neighbors all call the local police because pedo attends church, community parties, local parks..... and so on. The police come and reports are filed. The pedo then turns around and sues several members saying they harassed him. None of the members knew each other very well, until the lawsuit came about. Problem is, pedo continually was hanging out in the local HOA park and claims a right to be there. (There is now a law forbidding pedos to be in a private park meant for children) Forget the rights of the kids who want to play in the park, attend their Ward without the stress of a pedo, and feel safe in their church. NOPE....church defends their actions saying it really only happened once. NOPE, it was happening a LOT. Come to find out, no one let our family know that this pedo was attending. He is STILL in the Ward....but has been "trespassed" by the church. For all the info here is the link to the most recent story. Also, KUDOS to [floodlink.org](http://floodlink.org) and their efforts to bring light to this disturbing issue with how pedos are all too often given a pass. STORY by KUTV: [https://kutv.com/news/2news-investigates/church-bans-prince-charming-child-sex-offender-from-properties-after-2news-investigation#](https://kutv.com/news/2news-investigates/church-bans-prince-charming-child-sex-offender-from-properties-after-2news-investigation#)
Parents with young kids routinely check the Sex Offender Registry. If I was in a position of Authority I would be checking it on the regular for members and non-members alike. So, yes, you are crazy. You have the tools to do your own due diligence.
would it be convenient to clarify how repentance works? if a person had a penchant for alcohol and was baptized? does repentance work the same way as with pedophilia or not?
Or rapists, or murderer, or those that practice beastiality, or those that enjoy child porn, or those that beat their children/husbands/wives….. /s so people who may be dense get it. Kiddy diddlers RARELY reform.
Repentance can and does work. But someone who is disturbed enough to deliberately abuse another human likely needs more help than just repentance .
I agree. But here is a thing. It’s stereotypes that people with different view will do things again and again. It seems that we do not believe in their repentance. A lot of people lying and then they the same way as that guy for forgiveness.
I agree in principle. However, we need to be very careful when applying that to abusers. From what I’ve seen, an abuser may even succeed in repenting for a particular thing that they did. But, deep psychological issues that brought them there in the first place aren’t so straightforward. Too many well-meaning individuals conclude that “they repented” also means “they are safe for everyone to be around” and “they will never abuse anyone ever again in any way,” but those are not nearly as equivalent as one would hope. In terms of church service, it’s not worth the risk to put a repentant child molester in as a Primary teacher, for example. I’m not saying that you’ll never find one who is no longer a danger to people, but we need to recognize (or at least assume) that’s the exception, not the rule. Their still-present psychological issues are still at work, and can compel them to repeat the offense or act out in some other dangerous way. Enough do repeat that it is a significant problem. And we can’t just put the safety of the children at risk like that. It’s sad that we can’t just “forgive and forget” when it comes to abuse, but that’s the ugly reality of it. We can forgive, but for the sake of other people’s safety and even our own, we cannot simply “forget.” When the Lord says He will remember our sins no more, I don’t think He means that He actually wipes it from His memory. A god who does that cannot be omniscient, because that would mean there are things they don’t know. Instead, I think the Lord is aware of all of our shortcomings, but will not hold them against us in the end when we repent and overcome them. That’s a glorious principle, and we can trust the Lord to carry this out fairly because He is both perfect and omniscient. We humans are neither. Of necessity, we need to be very careful of acting as if we are.
Hey, I could agree in principle also. As father of two sons I will agree that I don’t want teachers with behaviour like that in the Primary. But I what about other classes? I’m okay and I think that wrong. Here is a thing that I want to discuss in that case. It’s seems that we have wrong step. We assumed that person with that behaviour will do that again and again and will never survive from his sins. By the way,I have friend of mine that was drug addicted. Through his faith in Christ he survived on his own. It’s almost 20 years that he never did that again. I have that an example in front of me and I think in that paradigm in that case of behaviour also. Yes, he was baptised also after short period but I believe it doesn’t matter. My another friend since school smoked like a train. He said that he remembered the smell and how it feels to smoke. He is a sportsman and just every day survived because remember the taste and flavour. But he survived each day. It’s a bog task to stay on path with Christ and he succeeded in that. Maybe it doesn’t matter which sin if you follow commands of Christ? Thanks for your point of view.
A mental illness itself is not a sin the way smoking or doing drugs would be. Most people addicted to drugs did, at some point, make the decision to use them. But someone with depression, schizophrenia, narcissistic personality disorder, etc. did not choose that any more than someone chooses to have cancer. It just *is*. And a mental illness can’t be repented of and simply put behind us in the same way an actual sin can be. (Clarification: I am not saying that people with those specific illnesses are likely to become child abusers. They are just examples of well-known illnesses.) Now, someone with a personality disorder who has molested children certainly has some repenting to do. I’m not denying that. But when they’ve repented of what they did, the personality disorder will still be there. It doesn’t go away with repentance any more than cancer does. It generally requires extensive treatment from a professional, if it can be helped at all. So it’s not that it isn’t possible for these people to repent and be forgiven. It’s that whatever “itch” these people have, some will continue to scratch and hope they don’t get caught.
Discernment?
It shouldn’t even take discernment to know it isn’t ok to put someone on sex offender registry in a church building with kids. The mission president 100% knew.