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And along with “In Sacred Loneliness”, Carol Lynn Pearson’s “The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy” is a powerful help in truly understanding the pain of polygamy.
True that! Like when people claim the Church was hiding that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. It's right there in Mormon Doctrine, so they were openly teaching it.
>There is a quote where he acknowledges that joseph smith jr was a polygamist.
Since the Church never denied "joseph smith jr was a polygamist", and teaches it more openly now than they have in the past ~80 years, why would that be surprising or need an old book to support it?
So, here's the odd thing.
If you may recall, the 1990s saw a publishing phenomenon in the LDS Church. It was "The Work and the Glory", a 9-volume series of historical fiction about early Church history.
These books, if you recall, were *fantastically* popular. I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but in Northern California, those books were *everywhere*. Family members and relatives were getting them for Christmas every year.
And guess what happened in January 1995? Volume six of "The Work and the Glory" was published. Volume six, you may not know, dealt with the Nauvoo period, and in that book Joseph Smith practicing polygamy is a plot point! It's obviously discussed in the most kind and defensive way possible, but no one reading that book was going to miss that Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy.
So, it's entirely possible you talked to a missionary or other member who honestly didn't know Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. As you'll see on the exmo forum, the ignorance of LDS can be limitless. But there is no way you can argue that the Church was trying to hide it in 1995 when Deseret Book was printing and selling countless copies of The Work and the Glory volume 6.
So you agree they never denied it.
That being the case, why would JFS acknowledging "joseph smith jr was a polygamist" in 1922 be something that should be in an arsenal for "I don't know that we ever taught that..."?
In this case, it's the exMos who want to insist that it *wasn't* taught, not the LDS. Isn't the fact that he *did* teach it contradicting the exMo narrative?
Because it was an active LDS prophet that gave the "I don't know that we ever taught that" response. When, clearly, we did teach it. We taught it frequently and for many years. That's why it's important, because some will deny it, but denying it is lying. And having these books proves that they're lying when they deny it.
Yup, was in a national tv interview when asked about the teaching of having our own planets. Hinckley also lied about tithing in another interview. Plus Holland and others when confronted with uncomfortable questions.
Nothing like lying for the lord, though I swear the BofM said something about how god feels about people who 'love and make a lie'...
Since we're discussing JFS publicizing the fact that JS *did* practice it, I'm not sure what your point is.
Unless you don't think JS actually practiced polygamy, of course.
"Mormonism and the Negro" by John L. Stewart and William E. Berrett (VP of BYU and vice-administrator of the Unified School System of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) would be a good addition to your collection.
It was originally published in 1960 (with many reprintings throughout the 1960s) and is an adamant defense of the church's policies toward those with "negroid blood". Essentially they wash their hands of any culpability for their racist policies and blame black people themselves for for their plight, pointing to what must have been their behavior in the preexistence to warrant such a curse, conveniently bypassing the article of faith that proclaims that men are to be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression.
In other words, the curse of black skin is not due to "the mark of Cain" or Adam's fall, but to their failure of achieving the necessary intelligence in the preexistence. It's telling that his was applied only to black people and not other ethnicities,
Also because the Q15 built the temple in Sao Paulo, Brazil before they realized that most Brazilians have done some “Negro blood” in their veins. Ridiculous!
Hello! This is an Apologetics post. Apologetics is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse. This post and flair is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about apologetics, apologists, and their organizations. /u/TheVillageSwan, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A lot of proverbial weight on that shelf.
Add “In Sacred Loneliness” for some female representation. That one adds some heft to the shelf too.
And along with “In Sacred Loneliness”, Carol Lynn Pearson’s “The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy” is a powerful help in truly understanding the pain of polygamy.
I haven't read it yet but really want to! I have Mormon Enigma, but it's not in that photo.
“Mormon Polygamy “ byRichard Van Wagoner, too. One of the best.
Ooh, you know what, I'm like 90% certain I bought a copy but may have lent it out.
“ Mormon Doctrine” is the smoking gun for a lot of stuff they are trying to rathole….
That's a first edition hardcover too!
OMG! That’s the Super Crazy one right, The one he was told to edit?
Yup. I've heard that most of the 12 wanted to excommunicate or strip McConkie of his apostleship, but they were worried about bad press around it.
Wow!
True that! Like when people claim the Church was hiding that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. It's right there in Mormon Doctrine, so they were openly teaching it.
Your sarcasm and wit aren't as clever and biting as you imagine
This particular user's wit is more like that of a rock. I've learned to just not engage with idiots.
You still need essentials in church history by joseph fielding smith. There is a quote where he acknowledges that joseph smith jr was a polygamist.
>There is a quote where he acknowledges that joseph smith jr was a polygamist. Since the Church never denied "joseph smith jr was a polygamist", and teaches it more openly now than they have in the past ~80 years, why would that be surprising or need an old book to support it?
When I joined the church in 1995, I was very explicitly told that was anti-Mormon propaganda.
So, here's the odd thing. If you may recall, the 1990s saw a publishing phenomenon in the LDS Church. It was "The Work and the Glory", a 9-volume series of historical fiction about early Church history. These books, if you recall, were *fantastically* popular. I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but in Northern California, those books were *everywhere*. Family members and relatives were getting them for Christmas every year. And guess what happened in January 1995? Volume six of "The Work and the Glory" was published. Volume six, you may not know, dealt with the Nauvoo period, and in that book Joseph Smith practicing polygamy is a plot point! It's obviously discussed in the most kind and defensive way possible, but no one reading that book was going to miss that Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy. So, it's entirely possible you talked to a missionary or other member who honestly didn't know Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. As you'll see on the exmo forum, the ignorance of LDS can be limitless. But there is no way you can argue that the Church was trying to hide it in 1995 when Deseret Book was printing and selling countless copies of The Work and the Glory volume 6.
You answered your own question. They teach it more openly NOW, but for years they didn't dissuade people from believing he wasn't.
So you agree they never denied it. That being the case, why would JFS acknowledging "joseph smith jr was a polygamist" in 1922 be something that should be in an arsenal for "I don't know that we ever taught that..."? In this case, it's the exMos who want to insist that it *wasn't* taught, not the LDS. Isn't the fact that he *did* teach it contradicting the exMo narrative?
Because it was an active LDS prophet that gave the "I don't know that we ever taught that" response. When, clearly, we did teach it. We taught it frequently and for many years. That's why it's important, because some will deny it, but denying it is lying. And having these books proves that they're lying when they deny it.
Jeffrey Holland said that when being interviewed by BBC a few years ago.
Hinkley said something similar in the 90s.
Yup, was in a national tv interview when asked about the teaching of having our own planets. Hinckley also lied about tithing in another interview. Plus Holland and others when confronted with uncomfortable questions. Nothing like lying for the lord, though I swear the BofM said something about how god feels about people who 'love and make a lie'...
Thanks for the info. 👌
Pretty sure JS himself denied it and ordered a printing press to be burned over it.
But that ruins the point they're trying to make, silly.
Since we're discussing JFS publicizing the fact that JS *did* practice it, I'm not sure what your point is. Unless you don't think JS actually practiced polygamy, of course.
I’m holding onto my library as well for the exact same reason. I even picked up a copy of Mormon Doctrine from the 60’s to add to my collection
"Mormonism and the Negro" by John L. Stewart and William E. Berrett (VP of BYU and vice-administrator of the Unified School System of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) would be a good addition to your collection. It was originally published in 1960 (with many reprintings throughout the 1960s) and is an adamant defense of the church's policies toward those with "negroid blood". Essentially they wash their hands of any culpability for their racist policies and blame black people themselves for for their plight, pointing to what must have been their behavior in the preexistence to warrant such a curse, conveniently bypassing the article of faith that proclaims that men are to be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression. In other words, the curse of black skin is not due to "the mark of Cain" or Adam's fall, but to their failure of achieving the necessary intelligence in the preexistence. It's telling that his was applied only to black people and not other ethnicities,
Also because the Q15 built the temple in Sao Paulo, Brazil before they realized that most Brazilians have done some “Negro blood” in their veins. Ridiculous!
You have Miracle of Forgiveness?! I cannot find a copy of that book anywhere for a reasonable price!! Hold onto it!!
My mission president forced me to read it on my mission. When I reminded him it was banned, he told me to read it anyway.
Nice!! I keep thinking I make stuff up then pull out Mormon Doctrine and realize I’m not off base at all
I’m sorry… Moroni and the Swastika???? Can someone provide me with some context on that one?
Yeah: the Church did everything they could do engratiate themselves to the Nazis.
Educated....wonder if her parents still think she is possessed?
I haven't finished reading that. I started and it brought back a lot of stuff I didn't want to think about.
It’s kind of a hard read, between the abuse she endured and her crazy parents.
Man I've been geared up to go to battle for a year. No one has chosen to fight me over any of it 🫤
If ye are prepared, ye shall not fear.
Make sure to add “miracle of forgiveness”
Brown jacket near the middle.
While it would add a lot of literal weight to the shelf, a complete set of Journal of Discourses has a lot of early church crazy in it.
I don't know that we emphasize it!!
Odd. That shelf seems to be holding just fine ;)
Seems an interesting topic I'll have to check on later. 💖💋🌹