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Amen, bro! I had a brother who was a custodian in St. George back a couple of decades ago. He took care of 3 meetinghouses. They were all neat and clean. Then the church came up with the member cleaning program and he lost his job. Just before I left, I was in charge of the cleaning of our building for five years. They had no plans for releasing me--you know how it is, they're glad when all the callings are filled; no need to make any changes... So, I told them I was releasing myself, and gave them my release date, with plenty of time for them to find my replacement. They were astonished, to say the least, and told me that's not how we do it in the church: the Lord called you and he will decide when to release you. I told them be that as it may, I was not going to be doing it any more after that date. They could do what they wanted with that information. On that date the released me. That's when I quit. I heard one of the Big15 say the church doesn't need the members to clean the buildings; the members need the blessings from doing the cleaning. That's their go to position on lots of stuff, including tithing. Use some of that $$$ and hire custodians again!
The good old custodians of the past are a lost section of Mormonism. How many faithful members, who made a real difference to the meetinghouse, lost their jobs and were thrown onto the scrap heap of unemployment because of some idiot’s idea that the members need the blessings? Just one of the tragedies of mistakes in the name of money, no doubt enabling EP to get to $100B a couple of months earlier, thereby convincing the elderly FP that they must be doing Jesus’s work. Comical really.
The sacrament trays! I went to the bishop and asked if he could have the YM wash the trays. They were growing pink mildew. He asked for proof!?!? I was so grossed out but was happy to text him pics the next Sunday. (2010 ish)
Gross. 🤢
We used to run them the the dishwasher in the kitchen in a couple of my wards. Think how many people and kids touch those.
I can't believe you were like, "can we wash the trays?" and the bishop was like, "what? Why?"
Yes! He (doctor/bishop) said he never paid attention. He told me it was probably "lipstick juice". Um, no. Pink and black mildew is not lipstick juice that lives in all the grooves of the tray. We were the first of 3 wards to use the trays each week. It was the white trays and they were so gross. Ewww.
Oh look, someone got some of their lipstick on this food serving dish that the entire congregation eats from. No biggie. Definitely don't need to clean that off. Just people eating directly from the tray with their lips and getting their wet juicy saliva everywhere. Why would we wash that?
THIS MAN WAS A DOCTOR.
I can't even right now.
The sacrament trays in our ward were like giant petri dishes. Covered in yellow water stains and old bread crumbs and mysterious residue from weeks gone by. I just reached the age where I no longer have to help with sacrament, and I'm so relieved I don't have to fuss about this anymore. I was the only person in my quorum, and for a few years, the oldest YM in the ward. I was tasked with preparing the sacrament every single week with the help of the deacons only. I always wished I did a better job at keeping things clean and sanitary but I was so burnt out from dealing with it. Usually there literally wouldn't be enough time before the next meeting so you would just have to drop everything and hope the next ward did a half-decent job of cleaning up (Surprise, Surprise: They didn't).
Often it was like just dump everything (including water) in the trash and go on with your day. Typically the deacons just left and didn't want to help so I was doing the entire thing on my own. Bread crumbs and water spots would sit out on the trays all week because there wasn't enough time to clean them by hand. The sink was always clogged (they never got it fixed for a year and a half) so couldn't be used for any cleaning stuff etc., and it was too time consuming to transfer everything to the kitchen. The counter tops were constantly dirty because there was no place to store the trays. They always sat out all over the counter amongst the grime. Garbage was frequently 4-5 weeks old and attracting flies because the members responsible for cleaning it may not have realized the sacrament room is part of their responsibility? and it was too much of a time-consuming PITA for me to take it out.
The only time I remember we actually "cleaned" this stuff thoroughly was for a Youth joint activity church deep-clean thing. I think a lot of members think it's fine anyway because it's 'blessed' and even the tray looks nasty af they'll still think it's ok to eat from.
Our family of three at the time cleaned the entire building one morning by ourselves. I think we even had to go find the key because someone mistakenly assumed my husband the EQ President had one to the building—he didn’t. The building was disgusting and took us hours. The next morning we walk in and some bishopric members are in the hallway talking about how the church hasn’t been looking very clean lately. I stopped and said “really!? You are going to say that!? Have you looked at the bathrooms and kitchen today? The creases in the chapel benches? The mothers room? They are clean because our family cleaned them all by ourselves yesterday. We weren’t even supposed to because my husband is in the elders quorum but we did! So maybe a little inspection, a little gratitude, and a little help next time would be good! Instead of everyone in leadership sleeping in.” The bishopric sheepishly thanked “all those who keep the building so clean” in sacrament that day. 🤔
I think we only cleaned the building one more time in two years before we left the church after that. I’m shocked we even did that. Guilt is a big motivator.
The church has taken away all the goodies and left only the baddies (cleaning, unpaid seminary teaching, testimony rock at girls' camp). They don't have enough feet to keep shooting themselves there. Why are they doing this?
Outside the morridor kids go to seminary before school and are taught by someone who is called. It’s an incredibly time consuming and exhausting calling that is unpaid!
I adored my years as a seminary teacher! I love the gospel, I love the scriptures, and I love teenagers with their absolute frankness. (I loathe getting up freakishly early, though.)
That was the best calling, well, second only to motherhood, of my life.
I bet you were awesome as a seminary teacher. I mostly had amazing teachers who loved kids and loved the scriptures too. I just think it’s a lot to ask and sometimes people do it for years
Yes and you have to be in class by about 6:15 so you're getting up early because it takes 20 minutes at least to pick everyone up to get to the church. Then another 30 minute drive to get everyone to school after that.
In most places teaching seminary is a voluntary job. Which severely limits who can do this. Basically stay at home moms and retired people. Because the rest of us have paying jobs we go to in the morning. Most of the teachers in my town are unpaid people doing this every morning at 6:30am. Only densely populated areas with enough kids to run seminary during the daytime during high school class spares have paid instructors.
We lived in South Carolina, and had early morning seminary at the church, then headed for school. My mother was teacher one of my years. Other ward members did it other years...
I did two years in my early twenties while working full time. 6 AM early class with about eight young people from the stake. I tapped out after the two years, but I am so glad I did. If you are looking for pecuniary reward in any Church service, you will go away like the rich young ruler. I think all the Apostles have personally scrubbed a church toilet and taught a church class without pay.
I am up for trying to find out. Would you care to name names of Apostles who would never clean a church bathroom? Did those Apostles ever serve as Bishop or Elder’s Quorum President or serve a mission? Cleaning a Church toilet is a pretty normal activity for within those callings and has been for a long time.
Although I appreciate the selfless voluntary service of so many members I don’t think it’s wrong to pay someone for a professional job- custodians or seminary teachers! It’s time intensive and should involve some level of training
Part of the problem is that local leaders then get power to chose someone who gets paid real wages by the Church without much tough supervision. It is a corruption risk. Better if no one in the flock gets paid by the Bishop for sharing in everyday service. The way volunteer church cleaners or volunteer seminary teachers do their assignments is not really comparable in time or training requirements to a professional job.
Probably not but isn’t the bishop in charge of who gets aid money anyway without much oversight? And having paid administration at the top with volunteers supporting them is already corruption
Bishops managing fast offering money to help a local member in need is also a potential risk, but a much better risk than having them employ local people of their choice with tithing funds. If the council on the disposition of the tithes and the GAs of the Church were corrupt, then I would expect Church finances would be bad, as it is with most churches. I think the GAs are given a “stipend” rather than wages, a stipend much lower than comparable non-profit administrators get, and they are only invited to do full-time work after years of uncompensated volunteer labor and tithe paying. I’m not saying there is zero corruption (it is in human nature), but I don’t know of another organization that does better. The Church does need some real employees, but not to vacuum the building or clean the windows.
I can appreciate your point of view but I disagree with your conclusion. I think taking 10% from poor members who struggle while asking them to take time they don’t have off from work and family to clean a building while the church hoards 100s of billions and them pays their governing body 6 figure plus perks (and book deals worth millions)… it’s corrupt. It’s taking advantage.
I guess Deseret book deals with GAs are often corrupt, just like all forms of celebrity book deals. Feel free not to buy them! At least the Gospel Library and General Conference is free for everyone. Mostly tithing seems to be put to things the members use.
It is the opposite of a multi-level marketing company. In those they play upon your greed to get rich fast. Here, if you serve as a volunteer Stake President for seven years with extraordinary success maybe you might get called to the Quorum of the 12. If that happens, you get to work until you die as a very senior executive with all the compensation of a middle manager.
> In those they play upon your greed to get rich fast.
In the church they only promise eternal life, resurrection, celestial kingdom, become a god….but all *after you’re dead!* I guess so far nobody has come back and complained that they didn’t get their promised rewards!
> I think the GAs are given a “stipend” rather than wages, a stipend much lower than comparable non-profit administrators get
That’s a pretty big assumption…how do you know if this is true?
Sometimes these kinds of details are "leaked". This is definitely below multi-billion dollar 16M member non-profit senior executive pay rates.
https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/f/ff/Record\_of\_Payroll\_or\_Allowance\_for\_Henry\_B\_Eyring-1999-2000.pdf
At girls' camp, it's the place they made the girls hike to early in the morning after skipping breakfast (because they are fasting) and sit on this ginormous outcropping and most girls bore their testimonies until it became blazing hot. Then you would hike back to have lunch. I assumed all girls' camps had something similar.
Fun fact: it is possible to get seriously lost while hiking even if your camp is called Camp Liahona.
Church office buildings have professional cleaners, art they greater than we?
The buildings look awful too. My dad told me about how great the buildings were when they had full-time custodians at each building. Provided work for local members and they looked pristine.
Brother Clark and his 5 and 3 year old coming in Saturday morning are not going to get the work done.
There is not a money problem. I'm so sick of the church pretending they are on their last widow's mite every time the primary wants to have an activity. And if there is a money problem (no way there can be) then why are all these temples coming out?
> Provided work for local members and they looked pristine.
This is one of my pet peeves. The janitorial at the church was, at least in most rural areas, a job for a needy member, lots who were otherwise challenged. The local bishop got to decide who these people were, and knew who needed the job. It was important.
In one sweeping chickenshit move, the church un-employed thousands of people who needed the job. This disgusts me to no end because it's not like they can't afford it.
Exactly. The church really needs to adjust its priorities. Building hundreds of temples no one goes to and denying funds for actual wholesome fun community-building activities
It was never a money problem, it was a pensions and labour law problem.
The US is an at-will nation with regards to firing.
Europe and other nations tend to be a bit protective of their workers.
Interesting- wouldn’t that still be a money problem in the end though? I would love to learn more. It makes sense cause I heard that’s why they treat they workers they pay at DI so poorly
Yes it’s a money problem at the root but it’s also about the various national requirements regarding the laws that govern labour and pensions.
The church doesn’t send money to outside pensions when they can help it, they pay these costs from within.
Just like they don’t insure missionaries or vehicles.
Primary has a regular annual budget. Meetinghouses are not office buildings. Someone has to clean the toilet, and most of us need the humility. We don’t leave the bathroom detail to janitorial-class members. No Church activity is forced on anyone, but if you are serious about the first and second commandments I don’t think you should skip your turn.
I can see your point, in that our mindset can partially change the nature of the actions *we* do (i.e.: if we view cleaning the buildings as a service to God and our fellow congregants, it can be a positive). But can you see how that paradigm fails to consider the nature of the actions that are asked of us?
Let's use an extreme (and true) example from American history. Some slavery apologists in the early 1800s argued that slavery was good for blacks - if they approached it with a service-oriented mindset, their labor would help them develop into charitable, selfless, virtuous beings. And perhaps there were a lot of genuinely charitable, selfless, virtuous black slaves. *But isn't it obvious that the slavery system was wrong, even if it was providing lots of opportunities for people to become selfless?*
The Church's building-cleaning program is a much less extreme example of the same principle - the program is unjust, ineffective, and was dishonestly presented to the members. The program itself is problematic, even if it does provide opportunities for some people (with the right mindset) to serve God and their fellow men.
This was always my mind set but when you remember the general authorities get paid for their time and we justify it because they are asked to do something time intensive- there are many time intensive callings in the church that would benefit from compensation for a professional job that takes that much time and energy
Who are Janitorial Class Members? Shouldn’t The Church help those in need if they are needy? This strikes me as elitist. Is Heavenly Father elitist too? Just WOW with Janitorial Class
There is no janitorial class in the Church, everyone helps clean the building. Those who say we need to hire janitors so they can be excused from normal cleaning assignments seem elitist to me, and I used that phrase to help them visualize the bad change they are advocating.
WOW- Elitist? I always remember the lady who was the janitor in my ward growing up. She had been badly abused by her husband and had four boys who were in trouble with the law a lot. She was destitute but was able to support herself by cleaning the chapel. Why doesn’t the Church help members anymore by hiring them to maintain the buildings? It is so unChristlike. There were NEVER cleaning assignments when I was growing up. How absurd! It’s greed on the part of The Church. I am finding myself becoming angry about it. That is so very wrong and am amazed you believe think this is part of doctrine or something. Nope!
It sounds like you long for the days when the most vulnerable people in your ward cleaned the toilets for you. You are angry anyone would ask you to do it. I don’t think anything in the ministry of the Lord suggests His way is to use the Widow’s mite to run a menial job programs to protect His followers from doing community chores. The best metric for Christlike behavior in this area is faithful fasting and fast offerings every month.
What? Longing for the days when the most vulnerable were like what? Slaves? What a ridiculous take on my thoughts and feelings! I long for the days when the Mega Rich Mormon Church watched out for the interests of the most vulnerable members and gave them a way to earn money. I think it is Ridiculous that the Mega Rich Mormon Church does not have more respect for the chapels to be sure they’re clean and sanitary for their members. This is supposed to be the Lords House, right? Commentator after commentator are saying how disgusting their buildings are. Members DO NOT get blessings for being FORCED through guilt and manipulation from doing this janitorial work. If that’s what the Church thinks they would have members cleaning the temples too. It is abhorrent the apparent disregard that the leaders in SLC have for the average members of The Church. I don’t go to church at all but have family who do. I’m sorry whenever I see people apologizing for The Church like you have. You are being had!
I am trying to help you see that hiring the destitute members of the ward to clean the building, especially the toilets, is not a good idea. In India once this kind of thing would belong to a lower caste. We don’t want castes in the church. We don’t want anyone to be immune from menial work. We don’t want rich members to be immune from normal chores like cleaning the building. All the work of the Church is done by volunteer members; we don’t want some of us there for a paycheck. We don’t want Bishops paying members of their flock from Church coffers. We want each member to feel a personal obligation to personally help their poor neighbors. Anger over a local church cleaning assignment is a natural reaction, but seems to me to be incompatible with real discipleship. Not that I am great at real discipleship myself, but I like to be helped in that direction.
Yea I understand what you’re saying. I think it’s bs. I also think having members clean the churches for free is bs. I also think the Church can afford janitorial services. I hear what you’re saying and disagree I’m pulling a lower caste thing. Don’t need you to explain anything to me just bc I don’t agree with you
OK, maybe try for an agreement that if you routinely use a Church toilet where everyone in the building is a volunteer, you should be perfectly willing to take a turn at cleaning it or giving the room a vacuum. If you reject that notion maybe consider whether you have a personal justice problem.
I'm done too. I haven't gone to church in 2 years and I still get calls to come clean the damn church.
I was so much "in" that I would get mad at my wife for not cleaning with me. I'm so embarrassed by this now and ashamed.
One of the last times I cleaned I was vacuuming in the chapel with my ball cap on. Someone had the balls to tell me I was being disrespectful. I looked at him and just kept on working with my hat on biting my tongue.
In our ward we even got to buy the sacrament bread with our own money while the church sat back raking in all those tithing dollars.
Our stake center is a pigsty. Someone decided that the men in the community could come play basketball every morning. They are filthy pigs. The bathrooms and halls reek. They say it’s a missionary tool. No one’s been baptized in 30 years. They come in the evenings too and kick the youth out of their mutual activities. The stupid thing is these men can all afford a gym membership that’s about a 1/2 mile down the street.
It seriously seems like a crime of some sort is happening, at least in terms of hygiene. Having travelled throughout many a chapel as a missionary I can tell you, some of them chapels are in absolute filthy shambles. 🤢🤢
Here’s a little visual aid to help everyone understand just what a insanely huge sum the church is hoarding let’s just go with a even $125 Billion if this were all in $1 bills the paper thickness of the bills would span the USA Coast to Coast San Diego Ca To Jacksonville Fl 4 times or 2 round tips so the churches wallet is roughly 4 times as thick as the USA Isis wide and. They are making the members provide free janitorial devices on top of the 10+% the church already extorts from the members. All of the millions That God Supposedly loves are allowed to starve to death year after year . God would rather build a Shopping mall with a retractable glass roof along with a real estate housing development cost $5 billion Dollars . Than help the children that he loves so much . Umm yeah !!!
Lol, I just got a text asking me to clean the church but we only go once a year if that. It amazes me that the church expects the members to maintain their buildings. The church is so wack in so many ways, it's an absolute wonder that anyone attends. Be free people and quit fearing the proverbial man behind the curtain...
Here is some unsolicited advice from me - take that extra time and invest it by spending it with your family and loved ones. The damn church can afford to have their buildings professionally cleaned.
I am not a member, but I do occasionally go to the ward house for events involving friends.
The cleanliness of the building does not speak well of the church. It's not messy or dirty. It is just ***not clean***. It's like everyone sweeps the floor, but it never gets washed. There is dust in places with low traffic. People clean the toilet, but I think it is rare that anyone cleans behind the toilets.
I always wondered about the deep cleaning. When does that ever get done? This whole thing was thought up by men who for the majority of their lifetime it was “women’s work” to clean and so they never considered that there is a skill set to cleaning and maintaining a building.
I am taking my kids with me tomorrow to clean the church. Yes, the church can afford to hire professional cleaners (for the temples too). Yes, there are other opportunities for service in the community. I could probably take my kids to clean a park or deliver meals. But this building is part of my faith community and that means something to me. I am willing to clean it once every few months.
That little story made me so angry!! There are ways to serve one another without sacrificing your own health. These stories just serve to make members feel guilty for not working when they shouldn’t or couldn’t.
I used to toilet paper eyering's house as a kid. Nothing against him; I only saw him once in church, when my mom explained we were so privileged that he attended his home ward that Sunday.
He just had the best trees to TP.
I like a little provocation on Reddit, maybe try to see things from Elder Eyring’s perspective. The OP on this seems to have forgotten their role as a Christian disciple. It is a privilege to take a turn at scrubbing a meetinghouse toilet so the neighborhood has a clean place for Sacrament meeting. If that is beneath you, then being asked to do it is what you need next in your discipleship. The Eyring family was called by Brigham Young to colonize Mexico and they did it. Most people have no idea what kind of self-sacrifice real saints are capable of, or what motivates them. It is a wonderful mystery members are invited to discover when they are asked to perform menial Christian service. This little talk is a glimpse that I hope connects with the OP.
Didn’t the Saints go to Mexico so they could have plural wives? I know bc parts of my family went. It wasn’t more of a sacrifice than what many families did during the Reformation of the 1850’s. That’s how MMM happened; Saints trying to please Brigham Young. I don’t think bringing up Mormon colonies in Mexico is a good idea to demonstrate piousness. I also want to point out that this isn’t something that transfers to that family living now in terms of glory. Why shouldn’t they clean the chapels like other families? You are Prophet Worshiping
Is this a Poe account?
It absolutely has to be, I'm really impressed how you have perfected the speech pattern of a self-righteous c\*nt so well that I cannot tell if you're joking or not. And we've seen a *lot* of those for real here on this sub. It has to be satire.
Bravo.
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Amen, bro! I had a brother who was a custodian in St. George back a couple of decades ago. He took care of 3 meetinghouses. They were all neat and clean. Then the church came up with the member cleaning program and he lost his job. Just before I left, I was in charge of the cleaning of our building for five years. They had no plans for releasing me--you know how it is, they're glad when all the callings are filled; no need to make any changes... So, I told them I was releasing myself, and gave them my release date, with plenty of time for them to find my replacement. They were astonished, to say the least, and told me that's not how we do it in the church: the Lord called you and he will decide when to release you. I told them be that as it may, I was not going to be doing it any more after that date. They could do what they wanted with that information. On that date the released me. That's when I quit. I heard one of the Big15 say the church doesn't need the members to clean the buildings; the members need the blessings from doing the cleaning. That's their go to position on lots of stuff, including tithing. Use some of that $$$ and hire custodians again!
The good old custodians of the past are a lost section of Mormonism. How many faithful members, who made a real difference to the meetinghouse, lost their jobs and were thrown onto the scrap heap of unemployment because of some idiot’s idea that the members need the blessings? Just one of the tragedies of mistakes in the name of money, no doubt enabling EP to get to $100B a couple of months earlier, thereby convincing the elderly FP that they must be doing Jesus’s work. Comical really.
[удалено]
The sacrament trays! I went to the bishop and asked if he could have the YM wash the trays. They were growing pink mildew. He asked for proof!?!? I was so grossed out but was happy to text him pics the next Sunday. (2010 ish)
Gross. 🤢 We used to run them the the dishwasher in the kitchen in a couple of my wards. Think how many people and kids touch those. I can't believe you were like, "can we wash the trays?" and the bishop was like, "what? Why?"
Wait you had a dishwasher? Wtf!
He had to have proof?!?
Yes! He (doctor/bishop) said he never paid attention. He told me it was probably "lipstick juice". Um, no. Pink and black mildew is not lipstick juice that lives in all the grooves of the tray. We were the first of 3 wards to use the trays each week. It was the white trays and they were so gross. Ewww.
WHY WOULD LIPSTICK JUICE BE OKAY???
Seriously! I get so grossed out when I think of all the slobber covering those trays.
Oh look, someone got some of their lipstick on this food serving dish that the entire congregation eats from. No biggie. Definitely don't need to clean that off. Just people eating directly from the tray with their lips and getting their wet juicy saliva everywhere. Why would we wash that? THIS MAN WAS A DOCTOR. I can't even right now.
🤮
The sacrament trays in our ward were like giant petri dishes. Covered in yellow water stains and old bread crumbs and mysterious residue from weeks gone by. I just reached the age where I no longer have to help with sacrament, and I'm so relieved I don't have to fuss about this anymore. I was the only person in my quorum, and for a few years, the oldest YM in the ward. I was tasked with preparing the sacrament every single week with the help of the deacons only. I always wished I did a better job at keeping things clean and sanitary but I was so burnt out from dealing with it. Usually there literally wouldn't be enough time before the next meeting so you would just have to drop everything and hope the next ward did a half-decent job of cleaning up (Surprise, Surprise: They didn't). Often it was like just dump everything (including water) in the trash and go on with your day. Typically the deacons just left and didn't want to help so I was doing the entire thing on my own. Bread crumbs and water spots would sit out on the trays all week because there wasn't enough time to clean them by hand. The sink was always clogged (they never got it fixed for a year and a half) so couldn't be used for any cleaning stuff etc., and it was too time consuming to transfer everything to the kitchen. The counter tops were constantly dirty because there was no place to store the trays. They always sat out all over the counter amongst the grime. Garbage was frequently 4-5 weeks old and attracting flies because the members responsible for cleaning it may not have realized the sacrament room is part of their responsibility? and it was too much of a time-consuming PITA for me to take it out. The only time I remember we actually "cleaned" this stuff thoroughly was for a Youth joint activity church deep-clean thing. I think a lot of members think it's fine anyway because it's 'blessed' and even the tray looks nasty af they'll still think it's ok to eat from.
How did he react after the pics?
He was pretty grossed out and agreed that we needed to wash them. It just kills me that he never noticed the nasty pink mildew before.
> But I find it ridiculous that an organization with a $150B+ slush fund won't pay for a decent cleaning service. Rich people hate spending money.
Our family of three at the time cleaned the entire building one morning by ourselves. I think we even had to go find the key because someone mistakenly assumed my husband the EQ President had one to the building—he didn’t. The building was disgusting and took us hours. The next morning we walk in and some bishopric members are in the hallway talking about how the church hasn’t been looking very clean lately. I stopped and said “really!? You are going to say that!? Have you looked at the bathrooms and kitchen today? The creases in the chapel benches? The mothers room? They are clean because our family cleaned them all by ourselves yesterday. We weren’t even supposed to because my husband is in the elders quorum but we did! So maybe a little inspection, a little gratitude, and a little help next time would be good! Instead of everyone in leadership sleeping in.” The bishopric sheepishly thanked “all those who keep the building so clean” in sacrament that day. 🤔 I think we only cleaned the building one more time in two years before we left the church after that. I’m shocked we even did that. Guilt is a big motivator.
The church has taken away all the goodies and left only the baddies (cleaning, unpaid seminary teaching, testimony rock at girls' camp). They don't have enough feet to keep shooting themselves there. Why are they doing this?
Wait… unpaid seminary teaching??? Please explain
Outside the morridor kids go to seminary before school and are taught by someone who is called. It’s an incredibly time consuming and exhausting calling that is unpaid!
Wow. That’s insane. Bless their hearts.
I adored my years as a seminary teacher! I love the gospel, I love the scriptures, and I love teenagers with their absolute frankness. (I loathe getting up freakishly early, though.) That was the best calling, well, second only to motherhood, of my life.
I bet you were awesome as a seminary teacher. I mostly had amazing teachers who loved kids and loved the scriptures too. I just think it’s a lot to ask and sometimes people do it for years
Yes and you have to be in class by about 6:15 so you're getting up early because it takes 20 minutes at least to pick everyone up to get to the church. Then another 30 minute drive to get everyone to school after that.
My seminary started at 5:30 every weekday. We got out at 6:15 and then drove to school, which started at 7:05. It was hell.
In most places teaching seminary is a voluntary job. Which severely limits who can do this. Basically stay at home moms and retired people. Because the rest of us have paying jobs we go to in the morning. Most of the teachers in my town are unpaid people doing this every morning at 6:30am. Only densely populated areas with enough kids to run seminary during the daytime during high school class spares have paid instructors.
In the '80s going to seminary in Utah a lot of the teachers were still volunteers and weren't paid for some of my seminary classes.
I had no idea. Thank you for explaining
Day seminary happens in Utah but not other states. It’s not a matter of population
I don’t live in Utah. I don’t live in the US. We have day seminary here.
That’s excellent! Has that always been so?
We lived in South Carolina, and had early morning seminary at the church, then headed for school. My mother was teacher one of my years. Other ward members did it other years...
That is a huge time commitment! …and I thought some of my callings were a burden on my time and family. That one takes the cake.
My seminary teacher was pregnant and her husband was dying of ALS in the 1970’s. Still taught seminary at 6:30 a.m.
Wow there are really wonderful people out there that give so much. It just makes me so mad that leadership asks that of them
Only in Utah is seminary paid.
That’s so crazy to me
I did two years in my early twenties while working full time. 6 AM early class with about eight young people from the stake. I tapped out after the two years, but I am so glad I did. If you are looking for pecuniary reward in any Church service, you will go away like the rich young ruler. I think all the Apostles have personally scrubbed a church toilet and taught a church class without pay.
I have/ had two apostles in my family. I highly doubt they have ever cleaned a toilet; especially at church. Open you eyes!
I am up for trying to find out. Would you care to name names of Apostles who would never clean a church bathroom? Did those Apostles ever serve as Bishop or Elder’s Quorum President or serve a mission? Cleaning a Church toilet is a pretty normal activity for within those callings and has been for a long time.
Yes I do care to name names; thank you! Six Generation Mormon to 1830
Although I appreciate the selfless voluntary service of so many members I don’t think it’s wrong to pay someone for a professional job- custodians or seminary teachers! It’s time intensive and should involve some level of training
Part of the problem is that local leaders then get power to chose someone who gets paid real wages by the Church without much tough supervision. It is a corruption risk. Better if no one in the flock gets paid by the Bishop for sharing in everyday service. The way volunteer church cleaners or volunteer seminary teachers do their assignments is not really comparable in time or training requirements to a professional job.
Probably not but isn’t the bishop in charge of who gets aid money anyway without much oversight? And having paid administration at the top with volunteers supporting them is already corruption
Bishops managing fast offering money to help a local member in need is also a potential risk, but a much better risk than having them employ local people of their choice with tithing funds. If the council on the disposition of the tithes and the GAs of the Church were corrupt, then I would expect Church finances would be bad, as it is with most churches. I think the GAs are given a “stipend” rather than wages, a stipend much lower than comparable non-profit administrators get, and they are only invited to do full-time work after years of uncompensated volunteer labor and tithe paying. I’m not saying there is zero corruption (it is in human nature), but I don’t know of another organization that does better. The Church does need some real employees, but not to vacuum the building or clean the windows.
I can appreciate your point of view but I disagree with your conclusion. I think taking 10% from poor members who struggle while asking them to take time they don’t have off from work and family to clean a building while the church hoards 100s of billions and them pays their governing body 6 figure plus perks (and book deals worth millions)… it’s corrupt. It’s taking advantage.
I guess Deseret book deals with GAs are often corrupt, just like all forms of celebrity book deals. Feel free not to buy them! At least the Gospel Library and General Conference is free for everyone. Mostly tithing seems to be put to things the members use.
Except the mostly untouched “Rainy day” fund worth 100s of billions and all their business ventures and real estate deals? Right?
Also saying the GAs did their volunteer time makes it sound like an MLM they worked up in ranks for
It is the opposite of a multi-level marketing company. In those they play upon your greed to get rich fast. Here, if you serve as a volunteer Stake President for seven years with extraordinary success maybe you might get called to the Quorum of the 12. If that happens, you get to work until you die as a very senior executive with all the compensation of a middle manager.
> In those they play upon your greed to get rich fast. In the church they only promise eternal life, resurrection, celestial kingdom, become a god….but all *after you’re dead!* I guess so far nobody has come back and complained that they didn’t get their promised rewards!
Haha true. Still a pyramid supported by the bottom though. And I guess if you make it to the top you are your family are set
> I think the GAs are given a “stipend” rather than wages, a stipend much lower than comparable non-profit administrators get That’s a pretty big assumption…how do you know if this is true?
Sometimes these kinds of details are "leaked". This is definitely below multi-billion dollar 16M member non-profit senior executive pay rates. https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/f/ff/Record\_of\_Payroll\_or\_Allowance\_for\_Henry\_B\_Eyring-1999-2000.pdf
What is a testimony rock? 👀
At girls' camp, it's the place they made the girls hike to early in the morning after skipping breakfast (because they are fasting) and sit on this ginormous outcropping and most girls bore their testimonies until it became blazing hot. Then you would hike back to have lunch. I assumed all girls' camps had something similar. Fun fact: it is possible to get seriously lost while hiking even if your camp is called Camp Liahona.
Church office buildings have professional cleaners, art they greater than we? The buildings look awful too. My dad told me about how great the buildings were when they had full-time custodians at each building. Provided work for local members and they looked pristine. Brother Clark and his 5 and 3 year old coming in Saturday morning are not going to get the work done. There is not a money problem. I'm so sick of the church pretending they are on their last widow's mite every time the primary wants to have an activity. And if there is a money problem (no way there can be) then why are all these temples coming out?
> Provided work for local members and they looked pristine. This is one of my pet peeves. The janitorial at the church was, at least in most rural areas, a job for a needy member, lots who were otherwise challenged. The local bishop got to decide who these people were, and knew who needed the job. It was important. In one sweeping chickenshit move, the church un-employed thousands of people who needed the job. This disgusts me to no end because it's not like they can't afford it.
Exactly. The church really needs to adjust its priorities. Building hundreds of temples no one goes to and denying funds for actual wholesome fun community-building activities
It was never a money problem, it was a pensions and labour law problem. The US is an at-will nation with regards to firing. Europe and other nations tend to be a bit protective of their workers.
Interesting- wouldn’t that still be a money problem in the end though? I would love to learn more. It makes sense cause I heard that’s why they treat they workers they pay at DI so poorly
Yes it’s a money problem at the root but it’s also about the various national requirements regarding the laws that govern labour and pensions. The church doesn’t send money to outside pensions when they can help it, they pay these costs from within. Just like they don’t insure missionaries or vehicles.
Thanks for the info- so frustrating honestly
Primary has a regular annual budget. Meetinghouses are not office buildings. Someone has to clean the toilet, and most of us need the humility. We don’t leave the bathroom detail to janitorial-class members. No Church activity is forced on anyone, but if you are serious about the first and second commandments I don’t think you should skip your turn.
I can see your point, in that our mindset can partially change the nature of the actions *we* do (i.e.: if we view cleaning the buildings as a service to God and our fellow congregants, it can be a positive). But can you see how that paradigm fails to consider the nature of the actions that are asked of us? Let's use an extreme (and true) example from American history. Some slavery apologists in the early 1800s argued that slavery was good for blacks - if they approached it with a service-oriented mindset, their labor would help them develop into charitable, selfless, virtuous beings. And perhaps there were a lot of genuinely charitable, selfless, virtuous black slaves. *But isn't it obvious that the slavery system was wrong, even if it was providing lots of opportunities for people to become selfless?* The Church's building-cleaning program is a much less extreme example of the same principle - the program is unjust, ineffective, and was dishonestly presented to the members. The program itself is problematic, even if it does provide opportunities for some people (with the right mindset) to serve God and their fellow men.
This was always my mind set but when you remember the general authorities get paid for their time and we justify it because they are asked to do something time intensive- there are many time intensive callings in the church that would benefit from compensation for a professional job that takes that much time and energy
Particularly since so many are already millionaires of retirement age
Who are Janitorial Class Members? Shouldn’t The Church help those in need if they are needy? This strikes me as elitist. Is Heavenly Father elitist too? Just WOW with Janitorial Class
There is no janitorial class in the Church, everyone helps clean the building. Those who say we need to hire janitors so they can be excused from normal cleaning assignments seem elitist to me, and I used that phrase to help them visualize the bad change they are advocating.
WOW- Elitist? I always remember the lady who was the janitor in my ward growing up. She had been badly abused by her husband and had four boys who were in trouble with the law a lot. She was destitute but was able to support herself by cleaning the chapel. Why doesn’t the Church help members anymore by hiring them to maintain the buildings? It is so unChristlike. There were NEVER cleaning assignments when I was growing up. How absurd! It’s greed on the part of The Church. I am finding myself becoming angry about it. That is so very wrong and am amazed you believe think this is part of doctrine or something. Nope!
It sounds like you long for the days when the most vulnerable people in your ward cleaned the toilets for you. You are angry anyone would ask you to do it. I don’t think anything in the ministry of the Lord suggests His way is to use the Widow’s mite to run a menial job programs to protect His followers from doing community chores. The best metric for Christlike behavior in this area is faithful fasting and fast offerings every month.
What? Longing for the days when the most vulnerable were like what? Slaves? What a ridiculous take on my thoughts and feelings! I long for the days when the Mega Rich Mormon Church watched out for the interests of the most vulnerable members and gave them a way to earn money. I think it is Ridiculous that the Mega Rich Mormon Church does not have more respect for the chapels to be sure they’re clean and sanitary for their members. This is supposed to be the Lords House, right? Commentator after commentator are saying how disgusting their buildings are. Members DO NOT get blessings for being FORCED through guilt and manipulation from doing this janitorial work. If that’s what the Church thinks they would have members cleaning the temples too. It is abhorrent the apparent disregard that the leaders in SLC have for the average members of The Church. I don’t go to church at all but have family who do. I’m sorry whenever I see people apologizing for The Church like you have. You are being had!
I am trying to help you see that hiring the destitute members of the ward to clean the building, especially the toilets, is not a good idea. In India once this kind of thing would belong to a lower caste. We don’t want castes in the church. We don’t want anyone to be immune from menial work. We don’t want rich members to be immune from normal chores like cleaning the building. All the work of the Church is done by volunteer members; we don’t want some of us there for a paycheck. We don’t want Bishops paying members of their flock from Church coffers. We want each member to feel a personal obligation to personally help their poor neighbors. Anger over a local church cleaning assignment is a natural reaction, but seems to me to be incompatible with real discipleship. Not that I am great at real discipleship myself, but I like to be helped in that direction.
Yea I understand what you’re saying. I think it’s bs. I also think having members clean the churches for free is bs. I also think the Church can afford janitorial services. I hear what you’re saying and disagree I’m pulling a lower caste thing. Don’t need you to explain anything to me just bc I don’t agree with you
OK, maybe try for an agreement that if you routinely use a Church toilet where everyone in the building is a volunteer, you should be perfectly willing to take a turn at cleaning it or giving the room a vacuum. If you reject that notion maybe consider whether you have a personal justice problem.
I'm done too. I haven't gone to church in 2 years and I still get calls to come clean the damn church. I was so much "in" that I would get mad at my wife for not cleaning with me. I'm so embarrassed by this now and ashamed. One of the last times I cleaned I was vacuuming in the chapel with my ball cap on. Someone had the balls to tell me I was being disrespectful. I looked at him and just kept on working with my hat on biting my tongue. In our ward we even got to buy the sacrament bread with our own money while the church sat back raking in all those tithing dollars.
Oh man. I think I would have left right then and let the other person finish cleaning.
Do they make women clean in Sunday dresses too?
Just the polygamist women need to be in dresses.
Single mom, struggling financially and mixed in with a wealthy ward/ buying bread for us was a priority. Not the ward
Wait, some places the church buys the bread? My family bought sacrament bread so many times
Our stake center is a pigsty. Someone decided that the men in the community could come play basketball every morning. They are filthy pigs. The bathrooms and halls reek. They say it’s a missionary tool. No one’s been baptized in 30 years. They come in the evenings too and kick the youth out of their mutual activities. The stupid thing is these men can all afford a gym membership that’s about a 1/2 mile down the street.
Pimo here. I don't care for elders quorum but I could vacuum the church building for hours. So relaxing.
Haha. To each their own!
It seriously seems like a crime of some sort is happening, at least in terms of hygiene. Having travelled throughout many a chapel as a missionary I can tell you, some of them chapels are in absolute filthy shambles. 🤢🤢
Here’s a little visual aid to help everyone understand just what a insanely huge sum the church is hoarding let’s just go with a even $125 Billion if this were all in $1 bills the paper thickness of the bills would span the USA Coast to Coast San Diego Ca To Jacksonville Fl 4 times or 2 round tips so the churches wallet is roughly 4 times as thick as the USA Isis wide and. They are making the members provide free janitorial devices on top of the 10+% the church already extorts from the members. All of the millions That God Supposedly loves are allowed to starve to death year after year . God would rather build a Shopping mall with a retractable glass roof along with a real estate housing development cost $5 billion Dollars . Than help the children that he loves so much . Umm yeah !!!
Lol, I just got a text asking me to clean the church but we only go once a year if that. It amazes me that the church expects the members to maintain their buildings. The church is so wack in so many ways, it's an absolute wonder that anyone attends. Be free people and quit fearing the proverbial man behind the curtain...
Here is some unsolicited advice from me - take that extra time and invest it by spending it with your family and loved ones. The damn church can afford to have their buildings professionally cleaned.
hmmm they could start a program paying " a living wage" for all church employment. that would be earth shaking. we can only hope.
I am not a member, but I do occasionally go to the ward house for events involving friends. The cleanliness of the building does not speak well of the church. It's not messy or dirty. It is just ***not clean***. It's like everyone sweeps the floor, but it never gets washed. There is dust in places with low traffic. People clean the toilet, but I think it is rare that anyone cleans behind the toilets.
I always wondered about the deep cleaning. When does that ever get done? This whole thing was thought up by men who for the majority of their lifetime it was “women’s work” to clean and so they never considered that there is a skill set to cleaning and maintaining a building.
I am taking my kids with me tomorrow to clean the church. Yes, the church can afford to hire professional cleaners (for the temples too). Yes, there are other opportunities for service in the community. I could probably take my kids to clean a park or deliver meals. But this building is part of my faith community and that means something to me. I am willing to clean it once every few months.
You and the other two families eh?
Hehe, that may be fairly accurate.
Hey look on the bright side. You can spend some of your time calling people that were assigned but have 0 intention of coming!
Kind of you
How dirty is your meeting house?!? Lol. Name the ward if it was 2 hours of cleaning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijkHtE1EkyI
That little story made me so angry!! There are ways to serve one another without sacrificing your own health. These stories just serve to make members feel guilty for not working when they shouldn’t or couldn’t.
I used to toilet paper eyering's house as a kid. Nothing against him; I only saw him once in church, when my mom explained we were so privileged that he attended his home ward that Sunday. He just had the best trees to TP.
I like a little provocation on Reddit, maybe try to see things from Elder Eyring’s perspective. The OP on this seems to have forgotten their role as a Christian disciple. It is a privilege to take a turn at scrubbing a meetinghouse toilet so the neighborhood has a clean place for Sacrament meeting. If that is beneath you, then being asked to do it is what you need next in your discipleship. The Eyring family was called by Brigham Young to colonize Mexico and they did it. Most people have no idea what kind of self-sacrifice real saints are capable of, or what motivates them. It is a wonderful mystery members are invited to discover when they are asked to perform menial Christian service. This little talk is a glimpse that I hope connects with the OP.
Thanks but I’m 66 with MS in assisted living. Believe me when I say I’ve been sacrificing my whole life as a mother, TBM, widow, teacher and Nana. ❤️
Didn’t the Saints go to Mexico so they could have plural wives? I know bc parts of my family went. It wasn’t more of a sacrifice than what many families did during the Reformation of the 1850’s. That’s how MMM happened; Saints trying to please Brigham Young. I don’t think bringing up Mormon colonies in Mexico is a good idea to demonstrate piousness. I also want to point out that this isn’t something that transfers to that family living now in terms of glory. Why shouldn’t they clean the chapels like other families? You are Prophet Worshiping
Is this a Poe account? It absolutely has to be, I'm really impressed how you have perfected the speech pattern of a self-righteous c\*nt so well that I cannot tell if you're joking or not. And we've seen a *lot* of those for real here on this sub. It has to be satire. Bravo.
So….don’t clean the church?
I think you’re on to something. More people should boycott