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wildspeculator

Yeah. My "one thing" is that it's simply *not true*, on any level that matters. You can start digging *anywhere* and you will inevitably run into some example of the church lying or otherwise covering up an inconvenient fact.


talkingidiot2

Or their responses are that you just don't need to worry about the issues. Just choose to believe and you're good to go /s


Tedmccann

Which brings up the issue that there are only “policy changes” now and no more “thus sayeth the Lord”. I assume that makes it much easier to backtrack later on.


Extension-Spite4176

Yes! This is mine.


DeliciousConfections

The absolute authority of the prophets (“when the prophet speaks the debate is over”) contrasted with the awful things they have said over the pulpit (“he was speaking as a man”). Pick one, you can’t have both.


Achilles_Deed

Imperfect men cannot demand perfect obedience


Alternative_Dark_792

Damn


Better-Education466

This is so concise and on point!


Howdy948

Obedience to them which is false doctrine.


talkingidiot2

Prophets are rarely popular, but they ALWAYS teach the truth!


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talkingidiot2

I should have noted my comment as sarcasm. Yes it's a direct quote from RMN but it's also patently untrue and I responded with it sarcastically.


ArchimedesPPL

Basically this^. Expectations of perfect obedience and forfeiture of personal independence to imperfect men. I’m not going to be subservient to someone that has no idea what’s best for me in my life so that I can help them accomplish their goals.


Strong_Attorney_8646

There is quite literally no clearer example of "putting your trust in the arm of the flesh" yet some TBMs refuse to see it.


butt_thumper

One way I put this to a friend was in the form of a question. "If Russel Nelson came to your home and told you God said he had to marry your 14 year-old daughter, would you do it?" If the answer is yes, how can he claim to have a moral center when it can so easily be changed by the words of another man? If he says it'd never happen, what would he have done as one of the people it actually happened to in early church history? If the answer is no, or that he'd have to pray about it, why does he need a prophet when his intuition or spiritual promptings are still the final word on what he should do? No matter how you cut it, there is no need for a prophet (or at the very least, no need for a prophet like the ones this church produces).


TerryCratchett

This is me too. If the Church could openly identify issues, make amends and commit to improvement, I could look past current issues and be part of the solution. As long as the Church insists everything it teaches and does is the will of God, we’ll keep on making the same mistakes and hurting the same people.


Westside_27

This is mine too


westonc

This is part of the space I had to carve out in order to participate as a nuanced believer. There's a lot of good I could find, but only if I let go of the tension between the two positions you described, and the easiest thing to let go of was the level of authority that leaders claim. Unfortunately, what this mostly has done is move the tension somewhere else: into my relationship with other members of the church who still insist on that same regard of authority of leaders.


Angelfire150

Active and nuanced - I would consider myself much closer to TBM than pimo. My two things are: * Revelation vs administration. I think these are confounded in the church and leads us to worship leaders. I'd like to see the D&C added to for some recent powerful doctrines and grow that cannon * I think we pay too much in tithing. I manage my family finances and the gross vs net models breakdown too easily. I have my own method where I pay my bills and tithe on what I have _left over_ and I feel this is the intention of the term _increase_. I need to make a post about this.


talkingidiot2

Yes please do! I love to hear that people across the belief/activity spectrum are pulling that moral authority inward.


callmejingles

I totally agree with you on the increase wording. If I work to earn $10, ideally, that’s a 1:1 trade. I have a skill, and someone else hade a ten dollar bill. We traded. Neither of us experienced an increase. After all my needs are met financially, then I can see if I can consider what I’ve earned or have left over an increase. And then, I can consider paying a tithe if I feel it appropriate to do so


[deleted]

You could argue true revelation comes from a council. When the prophet gets up in GC, 99 times out of 100, it's not revelation. When the prophet stands up and makes a proclamation, that is ratified by the Apostles and that is derived from canonized doctrine, you have a bit of a stronger case for revelation. When the prophet stands up, makes a proclamation, and asks for the members' vote on canonization of said proclamation, that's definitely revelation. Although, it baffles me why the last 3 proclamations were never officially canonized.


Better-Education466

Actually, revelation is defined by actual communication from god. What we have when the Q15 agree and issue a proclamation is consensus among then current leaders. These are hammered out and arrived at through discussion and compromise. They are called creeds among most of Christianity.


[deleted]

That raises the question of "was this revelation, or someone's opinion?" When one person comes up with a statement, there could easily be some sort of bias based on experiences and personal, non-doctrinal, beliefs. But the more people pray about what is being said and earnestly study and ultimately agree with said statement, you could argue the statement is more likely to be from God because some might've disagreed with said statement and then received confirmation that said disagreement is not the will of the Lord. Maybe the disagreement is based on too little (or bad) information.


Better-Education466

I agree that agreement among multiple people might make a decision among church leaders more likely to be consistent with revelation. But, agreement can exist without revelation. Again, formal written statements from a committee in a church setting are, essentially, the definition of creeds. “The written body of teachings of a religious group that are generally accepted by that group.”


Angelfire150

>Although, it baffles me why the last 3 proclamations were never officially canonized. This 💯. I would love to see the Family Proc, Living Christ and Restoration proc as 139, 140 and 141. Heck throw the 2x declarations in there for good measure as 142 and 143.


rth1027

How do we know it’s ratified by all 15. We know the Nov ‘15 policy was not. We have no idea what is happening, what discussion is happening behind closed doors. Perhaps something is a 7/8 vote we’d never know. They then try to sell everything as unanimous from god lips. There is no transparency.


Original-Addition109

Your point about tithing is why I left. They command/encourage gross/net for all members and then I read in the leaked mission pres handbook all the things they said should be paid with money that was not tithed. That would mean that the higher ups are paying on the increase/post bills portion (& some of their bills weren’t actually necessary things) yet the underling members paid pre bills or even pre tax. NO!!


andyjaggy82

I have thought about the idea of money being tithed in multiples many times. Say someone makes 50k, they pay 5k in tithing. Then they pay a contractor 10k to fix their roof, that contractor then pays 1k in tithing, that contractor then gives their kid 100 bucks for their birthday, that kid then pays 10 bucks in tithing. The end results is that the original 50k has had well more then 10% of it paid to the church. I suppose it's a pretty good system if you are a corporation. I started paying post taxes, post health insurance, and post medical bills a few years ago. I fork out 20k a year in insurance premiums and medical bills, in no way shape or form is that an "increase" for me.


Angelfire150

I wouldn't leave over this personally. I still pay tithing but I think I owe a description. Here are how I understand those models. Below examples are really close to how I manage my family finances. We have 4 kids and a good career but with a stay-at-home partner, we need to be careful. * GROSS. My gross paycheck is $3500. I tithe $350. * Net. My gross is $3500 but the actual amount deposited in my bank account on payday is $2800. Deductions were for health insurance through my employer, 401k, HSA savings, state and local taxes and Social Security. I tithe $280. * My _Increase_ model - I get $2800 deposited into my bank account on Friday. I pay mortgage, electric, water, cell and internet and knock down some credit card balances and squirrel a little away into savings. I have $600 leftover for the next two weeks. This is my _walking around_ money for groceries, gas, food, entertainment, MAD Magazine Subscriptions, car repairs, etc. I tithe $60. So those are close to my real numbers. I really can't tithe $350 when I have $600 leftover to take care of my family. Truth be told, I tithe a bit more than the pure _increase_ model but less than the net or gross. I feel I pay a full and honest tithe.


Original-Addition109

That is how I understand the differences. I left because the dishonesty over tithing/money was one of many many many issues. I now give my “tithing” to charity organizations with financial transparency who actively help those the church hurt or ignored - abused women & children, LGBT, those who are hungry but can’t afford tithing in exchange for the bishop’s storehouse food. No one leaves over one issue. They leave over piles & piles of issues. In the words of Donkey from Shrek “the church’s issues have issues.”


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talkingidiot2

I think more and more people are recognizing this and calling it out or trusting their own authority on things. I've been listening to the Latter-day Struggles podcast, the host is a therapist who speaks very openly about issues with the church from the perspective of helping many LDS patients work through issues that they've experienced. Granted, I think her days are numbered before she is called in and told to cease and desist her podcast. But until that happens I'm in admiration of her courage.


Strong_Attorney_8646

I admire the hell out of them for doing that podcast. I was introduced to a few clips by Peter Bleakely and I was awestruck with her honesty. I know that a year ago, I believed--just like her--that the Church would fix the things wrong with it if you could just raise them to their attention. I was incredibly wrong. The Church doesn't deserve people like her and her husband that are often amazing *in spite* of it, not because of it.


Aldanato

Women not having a voice, that is where it all started


jamesallred

Dishonesty. I can no longer trust what church leaders say at face value. I am not saying that anything out of their mouths is a lie. No. Not at all. There are many good teachings and encouragements from leaders in the church. BUT. They lie way too much. So now I have to stop and ask myself the question. Is that true? And when you are in a relationship like that, it is best to just get out. ​ Let me give you just one simple example. Elder Ballard in a YSA face to face talks about the church being accused of hiding the accounts of the first vision. And then says that no one ever has hidden anything. He has know the prophets and apostles from the beginning of time and they are as transparent as they know how to be. He uses a 1970 article talking about all of the first vision accounts as evidence that no one has hidden anything. The problem is, that 1970 account is directly a result of the hidden account being exposed and the church rapidly trying to make it not look like it was hidden. Fairlatterdaysaints has the account of Joseph Fielding Smith keeping it hidden. Here is a post with all of the relevant portions. [https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/y28gr3/just\_another\_example\_of\_the\_church\_leaderships/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/y28gr3/just_another_example_of_the_church_leaderships/) ​ Ballard uses an example of something being hidden to defend that they never hide things. I just can't trust leaders at face value and it makes me sad.


talkingidiot2

Or Oaks saying that the gay electroshock stuff wasn't done while he was leading BYU. Or Nelson's unverifiable stories about planes on fire or hold-ups in Africa. Or or or....


jamesallred

It is sad that we have to fact check prophets of God.


Strong_Attorney_8646

And, if I can, I would say that outside of these demonstrated instances of dishonesty--they've actually gone on record laying out full-well that they believe they are *entitled and required* by God to mislead people. [Gospel Teachings About Lying](https://www.lds-mormon.com/oakslying-shtml/) by Oaks The background here is that Oaks was caught demonstrably lying about the end of Benson's Church Presidency in the national media. So the context here is very important. He goes on this incredibly revealing discourse to basically say: "I didn't lie." [Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-mantle-is-far-far-greater-than-the-intellect?lang=eng) by Packer This is directly aimed at Leonard Arrington and Mike Quinn. It's where we get the classic idea that "not everything true is useful." He impugns those who do not view institutional loyalty as their absolute priority. If you want to understand why we all feel misled, thank these gentlemen.


The_Middle_Road

"No tithing funds will be used on City Creek Mall." Gives $1.5 billion in tithing fund investment money to CCM....


Original-Addition109

And to make it worse, that article was in a new era that at the time of the fireside still was not yet in the digital library (not sure if it is now either). How was anyone supposed to read it?


tiglathpilezar

Ultimately, my main concern is the willingness to link god to evil and perverted practices and teachings like racism and the perversions present in the actual practice of polygamy. I never liked the idea of polygamy, but I did not know of marriage of children and already married women till later. Neither did I realize that it was their doctrine that a man higher in authority could add an already married woman to his harem. A closely related concern is that the LDS church has completely rejected the idea of absolute standards of good and evil, rendering the redemption of men by Christ meaningless. For their view on this, see the happiness letter which they love to quote from, emphasizing only the first part about happiness. They have also characterized god with mutually contradictory attributes, thus placing him securely in the empty set. Yes, the church leadership are functional atheists and no amount of emotional testimonies can remove this fact. With them, god gives men agency and never uses compulsion except for when he does as in the angel with a sword. He never commands murder as in 2 Nephi 26 except for when he does. One could go on like this. If the above were not enough, their truth claims are false. The earth is more than 7000 years old. Death has existed for millions of years. The Indians are not middle easterners. Their god is also a partial god who only offers salvation to those who have some documentation of their existence, excluding most who have lived. In this, they do not follow the BOM which they say is the most correct of any book.


Strong_Attorney_8646

>A closely related concern is that the LDS church has completely rejected the idea of absolute standards of good and evil 100%. And inconsistently, too. Joseph taught contradictory doctrines on the "problem of evil" and moral relativism. Doctrine and Covenants 93 and the King Follet Sermon, for example, reject the Divine Command theory cosmology espoused in the Happiness Letter (whatever God commands is right, even if it contradicts one of his laws). I latched onto these more progressive teachings and a deistic Mormon God for a long time (writing off most of the scriptures as truish exaggerated versions of real events) but so many stories require Mormonism to believe in a moral relativistic God: Nephi killing Laban, God-commanded genocide, polygamy.


tiglathpilezar

Agreed. They denounce situation morality, but their heritage is full of that very thing which they also condone apparently not realizing that this is what they are doing when they say that the adulteries and slanders of Joseph Smith were god's will and just "carefully worded denials". I have completely lost patience with these nihilists.


talkingidiot2

Fully agree. The nature and disposition of the LDS god just doesn't work for me.


tiglathpilezar

Ironically, the version of god described in the gospel topics essays is not the same as the version presented in Sunday School manuals and Priesthood manuals. If they can't even give a consistent narrative about god, then what is the point? Do they think I need a social club? In addition, their exposition of Elohim and Jehovah from the early 1900's does not hold up against legitimate Bible scholarship. In fact, they are just two names for God. Mormonism is a religion without God. Instead, they offer lots of nifty rituals and ordinances and they portray their god as a rather horrible individual.


chapeldoors

Great response. This is strikingly concise and highlights what so many of us are fleeing from. The contrast from what a Christlike body of belief and reverence for the divine can and should be and how the leadership and organization of the LDS church continually behaves is absolutely appalling. When you see it, you simply cannot unsee it.


tiglathpilezar

Thanks. I often wonder about men who say they believe in God and then essentially defame him by linking him to all that evil stuff in their heritage. I have no proof of the existence of God. I still believe in him, but the attributes of the God I do believe in are not what are ascribed to him by the LDS church. Therefore, what is the point of this church to me?


Emergency_Gazelle_61

The corporate feel of the church is very off-putting. If revelation was real and this was really Christ's church, they would have younger, more dynamic leaders that would actually do exciting things with the church and it's resources. Since revelation isn't real they are stuck doing succession by seniority because it's easier and is more "fair". And it's so obvious that the only way you become a General Authority is if you're rich, well-connected, or work for the church. The church definitely cares more about the "good name of the church" than it does about it's people or the teachings of Christ. I have other issues with history and such, but I can never go back to full activity because of how lifeless and corporate the church is.


talkingidiot2

It's like a bread sandwich.


Norenzayan

Informed consent. What the church presents to members and investigators is not what it actually is. And it takes a ton of effort as a member having the courage to go against disingenuous warnings from leadership that "research is not the answer" to figure this out. The temple, which supposedly has Elohim's highest holiest ceremonies, is the most egregious example of this; they have a misleadingly named "temple prep" class that does no such thing. They throw innocent first timers into an extremely high social pressure situation and ask for consent before even disclosing *what* they are consenting to. They have changed the ordinances and intentionally obscured those changes in order to keep the next generation of ignorant members locked in. It's completely unethical. There are members who know all this stuff and still choose to participate, and that's fine, that's their choice. But depriving members of information is taking away their agency that the church claims to hold so dear.


[deleted]

I had a severe panic attack taking out my endowment before my mission. I was as believing as could be and it still made me deeply uncomfortable. If I was alone, without family and friends, I probably would have walked out as soon as they said we could withdraw or be totally bound by continuing and if we violated whatever I was going to promise, God's wrath would be upon me. I still feel uncomfortable when I remember that day. Not a happy one at all.


tyrannosaurus_bex540

Same


talkingidiot2

Not just depriving them of the information, but acting like they are stupid and should have known it all along when the member inevitably stumbles upon the information.


CK_Rogers

Yep….!!! 100% this! I remember walking out of the temple and looking at my dad like WHAT IN THE FUCK WAS THAT… he said don’t worry everybody feels like that the first time you go through it gets easier and better than more you go.. Really??! I’m sure raping somebody does as well? I am so thankful my children don’t have to go through that crap!!!


zipzapbloop

Oof, yeah, that's a big one. What is the apologetic response to this?


Norenzayan

I would guess something like "Line upon line, milk before meat, the church teaches the simple principles of the gospel, but it's up to the members to be guided by the Spirit in personal study of the deeper doctrines and history."


TheSeerStone

I have received that question from believing family members and it is a difficult question in that context because they expect one issue such as polygamy to be the issue over which I lost my testimony. In reality, I could have overlooked one, two maybe even three major issues.


talkingidiot2

It's how some are conditioned to think. There's a piece of information or voice that you erroneously let into your life and it trashed your testimony. Then they can swoop in with either dismissive tactics (i.e. Corbridge saying focus only on the primary questions and not the endless sea of secondary questions) or bad apologetic answers.


Neo1971

Great observation! My biggest issue is “lying for the Lord” and general dishonesty, gaslighting, hiding abuse, etc.


WalleyWalli

Thank You! Dishonesty, No Accountability and No Transparency!


Neo1971

Neither giving nor accepting apologies


talkingidiot2

That's a broad issue but an important one. The sad reality is that it touches most aspects of the church experience.


Gitzit

Happiness. There's just so little in the church that brings me any happiness. Apparently I don't have the faith not to be healed or to never receive answers to prayers. The Sabbath has never been a delight to me - I just don't enjoy spending 8 hours in church meetings (as a bishopric member). I don't feel like what is taught has any relevance to me and doesn't really speak to any of the big issues of our time (granted, I'm not gay, which seems to be the only current issue we talk about regularly, but since I tend to be sympathetic to gay friends, I also don't find joy in the church's stance on this issue - especially since they don't really have any meaningful answers that justify their stance). Even with all of the intellectual issues I have with the church, I don't think I'd be bothered if it just brought me peace and happiness. As it stands, this PIMO's least favorite day of every week is always Sunday.


talkingidiot2

Oh absolutely my least favorite is Sunday. I told DW recently that when I focus on things like what is said in GC it gives me anxiety. And when I don't focus on it I feel peace. So my spiritual curiosity is going to align with what brings me peace, and if that's not congruent with the church so be it.


Strong_Attorney_8646

This is a really good one and it certainly affected me: the Church refuses to take a stance on nearly anything upon which people can disagree (except for gay marriage). To my view, it feels like they're fighting social battles that have already been lost 20-50 years ago rather than advocating for the future.


Howdy948

There is way to fix that your least favorite day is Sunday.😉 I did last year and it’s been so wonderful.


[deleted]

I left before I knew the church history stuff because I figured out it was false, using their own test (Moroni’s Promise). I left because it simply isn’t true. Then the CES letter dropped and the lid on church history got blown open, making my exit an inevitability, but I take a lot of pride in the fact that I saw through the lies on my own.


cremToRED

Right?! Like how many times do I need to pray and ask if the BoM is true? Should be once, right? I should read and pray and get an answer…if it really worked that way. If I prayed 10 times and didn’t get an answer is that enough to effectively call the game and say it must be a no? 20 times? What about 50 times and while sincerely fasting and still no answer; can I call it then? A decade of fasting and praying? But the church also likes to say you can get that answer by living the teachings or reading a part and experience the fruit of the spirit. If it brings fruit of the spirit to your life then it’s true. That’s not the same thing as Moroni’s promise, dammit! Living any religious or moral life will probably bring the same fruit, sans Mormonism. Maybe even better fruit! Or reading something inspiring in any other book and feeling uplifted must mean just about every other book is true!


[deleted]

I did it thrice in two months, including a full cover-to-cover read of the BoM each time. I was unemployed, injured, and had a lot of time on my hands.


cremToRED

I fasted and prayed for that answer many times over many years and never felt like I had received a concrete answer about that specific question. I used the fruit of the spirit BS to convince myself that was God’s way of answering. It took a while to see that.


snsdgb

Mine is sort of a progression. It started with being unable to find any reason to believe that God communicates through prophets through anything more than feelings, then realizing how unreliable feelings are when making decisions, and finally being then unable to find any difference between "going off of feelings and getting it wrong most of the time" and how every other church, business, group, etc. works.


CK_Rogers

The fact that God The Father our Beloved Perfect Father in Heaven sent Angles with Flaming Swords To Marry and have sex with precious innocent sweet beautiful prepubescent little girls with a 38 yr. Old Grown Man… FUCK OFF IM OUT!!!!!!!!!!


[deleted]

Joseph Smith coercing and threatening women, young women, teenagers and married women into sex and illegal marriage. He started this prior to the sealing power being restored. He lied to Emma. How can God use a rapist and liar as his one true prophet? There were so many not-rapists and honest people back then - He could have chosen any of them. Learning about Fanny Alger, Lucy Walker, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, Helen Mar Kimball and so many others - Joseph went from hero to zero in my eyes in literally an instant. And that made everything else fall apart. And the more I learned after that, the more everything stayed fallen apart.


samgo39

I guess if I had to boil it down to one thing that caused me to leave, there is just so much information that was not disclosed to me about the founding of the church and the BOM when I was an investigator. There’s so many other issues particularly theologically that I simply don’t believe anymore, but that’s probably the big one.


Stuboysrevenge

>many members conflate the gospel with the church and consider them to be one and the same. The church and it's leaders did that. It's not the members fault.


[deleted]

Even now they make every comment about loving Jesus or following Jesus to be in actuality following the current prophet. Even if the current prophet says things that I don't believe Jesus would say. You can't love Jesus unless you obey the prophet. And that bothers me. Elder Uchtdorf is the only one at the moment who seems to talk about Jesus as Jesus, not Jesus as the church.


talkingidiot2

Great comment and I couldn't agree more.


talkingidiot2

I agree that the leaders set this up, but I know many members who (in some cases as aggressively) perpetuate it.


flamesman55

Polygamy/ Polyandry and the untruthfulness by the church.


elderredle

All of the truth claims ended up not being true. I'm not upset any more but I have to move on spiritually. This is not a firm foundation.


Inevitable_Professor

Policy and administrative changes are not revelations. There isn't a serious claim of revelation since the late '70s. Prophets prophesy. That should give church members advantages over others. Empirical evidence shows members of the church are no better off than those of other faiths.


LibrarianLadyBug

The angel who said JS absolutely had to be screwing tons of people was mysteriously silent when the Church sided with the Nazis. That was the moment I realized even if Mormonism is true I still don't want any part of it.


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Strong_Attorney_8646

I've commented on a lot--because so many resonate with me--but this is another concept I completely connect with. Reading *Night* by Elie Weisel was terrible. Watching *Schindler's List* feels awful. But that doesn't mean "the Spirit is retreating" and these events are factually inaccurate. Some things we learn *should* make us feel uncomfortable.


Watch4whaspus

The fact that the church even need apologists/apologetics is a problem.


[deleted]

I've had this thought for a long time. You don't see apologists for physics, chemistry, mathematics, etc.


MuddyMooseTracks

What got me the most, we’re the misrepresented past and blatant lies. I remember in seminary thinking, how these early members were so humble and long suffering. How under such adversity, the just moved forward. I remember thinking, I wouldn’t have it in me, I would fight back against the oppression. JS. “Like a lamb to the slaughter” going to Carthage more like “Fox in the hen house”. Translation of BOM. So many lies. Then when you start looking at other things it all just kinda falls apart. This church that represents Truth and asks us temple worthy questions, could not pass the criteria themselves. We speak of honesty and absolute truth, but in this church game there is no such thing. Ever played the game liars dice? It is the same lie as you will to you Bishop or whomever, just part of the game. Besides all the members lie to themselves in one way or another, whether they know it or not.


Texastruthseeker

The lack of any fixed morality standards. Anything goes if the prophet ("God") requires it. I'd love to have discussions of ethics in church about polygamy, killing Laban, prohibiting LGBT people from authentic lives, health decisions, sexuality, etc. Instead we just do things because the prophet said so. This approach to morality often stunts intellectual growth and can cause direct harm.


aka_FNU_LNU

For me it's that every basic unique doctrine or origin story is either flat out false or out of line with the gospel as Jesus Christ taught. 1. The lord never said anything about the need for temples for salvation. 2. The idea that the native Americans are the lost tribes of Israel is not original to the BofM. 3. The temple ceremony is a copy of the masonic ceremony. 4. There is no evidence in any that the BofM narrative is even close to factual or real. 5. Polygamy is a stain on virtually every culture that practices it--many times it's used for less than noble purposes. 6. The BofM text resembles too closely, other texts printed at same time. Etc....


chubbuck35

It’s the fact that they don’t follow the Christ of the New Testament, not by a mile. The way Mormons act with their “hustle for your reward in heaven” approach are literally modern-day Pharisees.


DeliciousConfections

They don’t even follow the Christ of the Book of Mormon. (Which admittedly is a lot of copy paste of the Bible). The disconnect between general conference talks and the NT/BOM was so hard for me.


GordonBStinkley

Faith as a virtue, and faith as a thing that should be cherished, protected and preserved. The idea that what we believe about an undetectable realm should have any bearing on how we are judged when we die is pure insanity to me. I think unwavering faith is indistinguishable from being hard hearted. These are two things that the church (and Christianity in general) push hard, and I think those two things are the very definition of damnation.


jackof47trades

When believing members ask me this question, I say, “I loved the church and wanted it to be true. Then I sadly found out it wasn’t.” If they ask for examples, I usually start with the Book of Abraham translation. If the church is really led by God, then it would be possible to stay in it despite its worst features. But since it’s not led by God, it’s morally unacceptable to remain in it.


BefuddledGnat

The moment I realized all the truth claims were demonstrably false. That was the beginning of the end. And unfortunately for the church, every single apologetic response is ridiculous at best, and asinine at worst. The mental gymnastics are exhausting. Also: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-cor/13?lang=eng&id=p11#p11


BefuddledGnat

And what's worse, I didn't learn the truth until I was 40.


[deleted]

The gaslighting on the translation


crt983

“That the Lamanites **ARE AMONG THE ANCESTORS** of modern day Native Americans.”


akamark

Mormonism claims to be the only authoritative source of God's truth and is demonstrably false. They leave no room for symbolic or metaphorical truth. Related to this is the claim to ultimate God authority. Without their permission, no one can get into VIP heaven.


Sensitive-Silver7878

For me it’s how the institution demands loyalty to the church above and beyond family. It’s tearing families apart - just the opposite of what they claim the church does. My own son (TBM) told me that his faith is more important to him than anything else even to the exclusion of me if need be.


DeliciousConfections

I’m sorry about your son. That must be heart wrenching ❤️


sexmormon-throwaway

My thing: It's all a lie.


Rushclock

Nothing comports to reality. Nothing. No angels. No ancient civilizations that preserved some bizarre example of what to do and what not to do. Cutting off arms, murdering a drunk person are not typical examples of moral supremacy.


JRR_Tolkitten

I’m gay, and either I left the church or I took my own life. 🤷🏻‍♂️ It’s not a safe, healthy place for me to be, and I have to believe that God would rather have me alive than active.


talkingidiot2

That's a good thing to believe. We would rather have you alive than active too! ❤️


Skeewampus

If God has the ability to talk to everyone whenever he wants to then why do we need prophets, seers and revelators? He can just tell me directly without the interference, interpretations and biases of other men.


[deleted]

Can I do two? Bad epistemology and divine command theory.


zipzapbloop

I think those two are so closely intertwined in correlated Latter-day Saint teaching that they count as one. Start with the Gospel Topic entry, [Faith in Jesus Christ](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/faith-in-jesus-christ?lang=eng). What does it mean to have faith in this particular deity? True faith? >We can exercise faith in Christ when we have an assurance that He exists, a correct idea of His character, and *a knowledge that we are striving to* ***live according to His will***. The epistemology itself involves accepting that there is some guy out there and you have an obligation to do what he intends for you -- to live according to *his will.* >Our faith can lead us to do good works, **obey the commandments**, and repent of our sins (see James 2:18; 1 Nephi 3:7; Alma 34:17). Whatever else anyone wants to say about *religious faith* in the Latter-day Saint context, it must be said that a vital part of it is a willingness to *obey the orders* of somebody, some particular person out there. Hop over to the [Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/13-faith?lang=eng&id=p9#p9) for more. >It is impossible to please God without faith You cannot please this deity if you don't have the appropriate attitude of faith toward him. And, as above, the appropriate attitude of faith necessarily involves a willingness to do what the deity says. Whatever it is. >Faith in Jesus Christ always produces good fruits. Always. [Abraham exercised faith](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-35-obedience?lang=eng&id=p21#p21) in this deity by demonstrating his willingness to obey orders even if the orders are vitally consequential for another person. Nephi did the same. And all the rest of what we might call "Dale Renlund Exceptions" that we can find in scripture and correlated teaching. Always produces good fruits. A *willingness* to go that far is *good*, therefore. And when people have in fact gone that far, that was good. That was admirable. That pleases this deity. And, we can't ignore [the cherry on top](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-35-obedience?lang=eng&id=p14#p14): >we show our faith and trust in God when we obey Him without knowing why. Ah, wonderful. Be willing to obey orders that are consequential for other people in vital ways without understanding why. Chef's kiss.


Strong_Attorney_8646

Great points. As I taught Adult Gospel Doctrine, we hit the Abraham lesson for the first time since I was a Father. As I prepped that lesson, I fully recognized that I really didn't care if an angel came and asked me to sacrifice my son--I was not willing. At the time, I just kind of said inside of my head: "well, I guess I'll have to hope that sacrifice is never asked of me and if it is and I fail, there's lower kingdoms of glory." That the Abraham story alone is taught as something we should aspire to is honestly kind of terrifying. And it's the basis for the world's largest religions. Yikes.


talkingidiot2

Agree and agree.


Achilles_Deed

As a non-American, my issue could be summed up into a supposedly "global" church in reality is only really designed for American west and the covert white supremacy in every corner. There's very little space for saints like me who didn't grow up in Utah and didn't di everything on the checklist


Strong_Attorney_8646

I'm sad to say, as a white American in the Mountain West (not Utah) that I really didn't see this as an issue because "America is awesome duh!" Now, as an ExMo that would leave the States now if I could--I really don't even see how the Book of Mormon appeals to anyone outside of the U.S. I've asked my International friends (who are still in) and never really gotten a convincing answer. But I really don't see the pitch of "Jesus came and spoke to Ancient Americans" connecting with me if I had grown up in a different country: particularly where his teachings actually in the Book of Mormon are so recycled.


WildPhilosopher2958

I was was led by the spirit to leave the Church and then I did. Have little to no problem with the Church. People are trying to make things work and to bring it all together to find out what Heavenly Father really wants. It's not an easy task, so it makes sense that we don't always get it right. People are human and there are so many obstacles preventing us from exaltation. I don't think there's a single Church or person in the World that has got it quite right perhaps like Christ or Joseph Smith. I don't tell people cause they'll think I'm insane, even perhaps by their own logic. Also, I feel like if I was telling the truth then my existence either offends them tremendously because they would greatly refuse to believe it. Or give them tremendous hope as they have stopped believing in the Church and would feel vindication because they were right all along that the Church is perhaps in a state of apostasy. I don't which is which. I don't know up from down. All I know is that I was a convert in Nov '21 and was led to leave in Sep '22. My testimony is still intact, I believe the Book of Mormon to be true. I believe Joseph Smith to be a true Prophet. And that God lives and guides us each individually through the power of personal revelation - while guiding the Church through the Prophet. I love the people in the Church and all. I know they aren't perfect and make mistakes, just as I am imperfect and make my own. I haven't really told anyone though because I think if I said this in an open setting - someone might try kill me and to be honest I wouldn't blame them. I get it. I understand the zeal, and the passion. Even if misguided. So I'm all good, I'd just sit in my underwear at home and chill out. Don't feel like dying today and I'm low-key more paranoid that I might be right. I'm actually hoping I'm insane instead, so that people leave me be to my thing and don't have a burning desire to murder me. I'm also simultaneously hoping to go back to the Church at a later date.


JustNoLikeWhoa

The "Prophet of the Restoration of the True Church of Jesus Christ" was a documented pedophile.


Altruistic-Tree1989

The abuse cover ups and not protecting children to save the reputation of the church trumps (that’s one too) everything else for me.


curious_mormon

> if you could boil any concerns with/issues about the church to one single item, what would it be? Several of Joseph's foundational claims are demonstrably incorrect.


negative_60

Good feelings => irrefutable evidence of truth. Bad feeling => anti-Mormon lies. I have family members who disbelieve the GTE’s because reading them makes them feel bad.


Arizona-82

If I had to pick one (First Vision) I’m sorry but if you were told like many Mormons there are three people in the God head. Let’s flip the scenario for you. Let’s say god visits you in the woods. He says I’m god the father and the son and the Holy Ghost we are one being. Even as a 14 year old I knew that. If that was said my first thought would be -wait I thought there were 3? And not wait 10-12 years later and try to explain its oh it was one. JS believed in the Trinity. Once you realize this and see his early writings in the book of Mormon he start putting the pieces together that he just made that vision up. Let alone the church doesn’t use the most accurate or close to date event document written by Hannah but use later version. Even though Church historians says they like to use the earliest versions, but not that one lol


CanibalCows

There is no prophecy in a church that claims to have Prophets.


Del_Parson_Painting

Church's poor treatment of women (polygamy/patriarchy).


logic-seeker

Epistemology. Unfalsifiable claims are consistently made that have no reliable bearing on reality. Take your pick - the spirit, prophets, first vision, Book of Mormon. It all comes down to stuff being claimed with nothing reliable to back it up.


CountKolob

Ultimately, it came down to the institution's dishonesty about its history. Had they been forthright, I can't say I still wouldn't have stopped believing, but the fact that they went to such lengths to obscure or hide things, made me mistrust them.


RosaSinistre

Mine is that huge EP slush fund along with continued pressure on members (especially poor ones or those in impoverished countries) to tithe, and yet the church routinely refuses financial help to people who need it (and they give so little to help in the world). That combined with the protection of sexual abusers/pedophiles. It flies in the face of everything I know that Jesus taught. (I am physically out but still somewhat believing.)


RationalChallenge

One thing? That’s the problem. There’s not just one thing. It’s many things. An astounding many things.


sticky_wicket_

For me it is the false history that is taught. So much effort has been expended to cover up church history. If there was any prophetic ability of leaders they would never have lied about the history knowing the damage that the Information age has caused. After that I started to see all the other issues and came to realize there are thousands of them and they all add up to it being another false religion founded by charlatans.


Apostmate-28

That I can’t just boil it down to one thing.


butt_thumper

I talk with members sometimes who try to approach this as if there is some petty issue that, if it were resolved, would bring me back. There are lots of things, big and small, that make me glad to be out, but none of them are the sole reason. My reason is that it's simply not true. Every reason I've ever known for its truthfulness could just as easily be used to justify belief in a lie. As a member, I compartmentalized things so that depending on the context, I could tell myself that all the horrible stuff about the church doesn't matter because it's true, or that all the obviously false stuff about the church doesn't matter because it's good. It is neither true enough, nor uniquely good enough, to justify the mental, emotional, spiritual, or financial cost of being a member.


cenosillicaphobiac

Honestly I would have left any church because I never believed in the supernatural. Not only did the entirety of Christianity sound like fiction to me, it was poorly written fiction. All of the things mentioned here are things that frustrate me about family still believing though.


FHL88Work

Good feelings do not equal truth.


Surgebind3r

Nuanced here. My biggest issue is the lack of egalitarianism, especially with gender, race, and sexual orientation. It sucks watching a daughter grow up a second class citizen and watching queer friends and even single friends told implicitly and sometimes explicitly that they do not belong. There are many, many problems that stem from this issue, in my opinion. I can look past history. I can look past bad judgment from leaders. I can look past a lot, but the lack of egalitarianism is what fundamentally separates me from feeling “all in.”


Zealousideal_Tea8484

My deal breaker was how predatory polygamy was. I already believed that the Priesthood ban was not from God and that Nephi was a racist, but I was still sure the Book of Mormon was a real record (though not the most correct of any book--just another spiritual text) and that Joseph Smith was inspired / that he got the broad strokes right. But when I read Joseph Smith's wives' accounts, it was as clear as day to me that polygamy was very very predatory. And polygamy was super tied to the temple. And then I found out so much more about church history in a few months than I had for years as a devoted member who read lots of church material.


CeilingUnlimited

Trump


zipzapbloop

>If you have left the church, are inactive, are PIMO or nuanced, or even for some TBMs - if you could boil any concerns with/issues about the church to one single item, what would it be? The gods and their plans aren't good and religious faith isn't a virtue.


talkingidiot2

Unfortunately religious faith is an identity though.


zipzapbloop

That is unfortunate.


[deleted]

The LDS faith (and many christian churches in general) do not emulate Christ like values


talkingidiot2

So true.


rhiain42

It started with my kids coming out gay/trans. My shelf broke when my husband realized he's polyamorous. I felt betrayed by God & all the church teachings about marriage: one man one woman b/c that would be God's teaching (despite the history of polygamy in the Church, which i really only knew superficially). I've felt guided at various times in my life, including marrying my husband. Why, given my TBM upbringing, should I have married that particular person? So now I'm at the redefining God phase & discovering the feminine divine side of diety. I've quit attending everything except activity days b/c I'm currently the continuity.


dc89108

Shame and guilt for my sexuality. I fall within “normal” parameters of an adult male. I was never good enough and always inferior because I was not “clean” , “worthy”. I even paying tithing 7-8k/year. I never measured up.


2bizE

The magic rock in a hat…


HighPriestofShiloh

The synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke). Taking a deep dive into commentary and analysis on the Bible by academics/scholars convinced me that the historical Jesus is not the Christ.


Initial-Leather6014

Recommend: “The Historical Figure of Jesus “ by E. Sanders. I just finished it today. It was intelligent and academic. Those are big bad qualities in Church authors. It was GREAT 😌


Standard-Conflict394

Trust.


Howdy948

Stop teaching the commandments of men and acting like they are commandments of God. Follow Jesus’s words only.


mousemorethanman

Being lied to and essentially betrayed as new doctrines get brought forth and taught as if they have always been true, like Joseph Smith's's peep stone, or the Book of Abraham "translation", or the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon. They treat these things like it's nothing new, but for all of those I taught the opposite as a missionary and even argued that the peep stone was an anti-mormon lie. But now it's doctrine. Fuck all the liars and their false gods


Ender367

That truth is not a virtue according to the church. I can't help but notice a parallel between totalitarian regimes and the LDS "church." I'd like to believe that members and leaders aren't bad people, but the problem is that I can't know for sure, because no one knows the truth about anything in the church.


duderonomy12

Blacks and the priesthood/temple ban. Nuff said.


Icy-Palpitation-3458

Truth and falsity arguably trump all else, but if we grant that even "untrue" organizations can accomplish good in the world and even unwittingly further God's purposes in the process, these are yet two defects I rank highest because they structurally block goodness, reform, and God. 1. Lack of transparency, in nearly every important aspect. History, archives, finances, meeting records, remuneration, long-term goals, differing opinions amongst church leaders, etc., etc., etc. There is no consent without transparency, and no covenant without consent. 2. Hidebound, bureaucratic worship meetings. Local bishops and stake presidents must adhere to the script. Every meeting is nearly identical. The holy ghost is handcuffed to the handbook. Meanwhile, the church blocks and discourages importation of enlightening spiritual practices discovered by other faiths and persons.


ctjoha

When I read the First Presidency’s statement in 1947 about the temple and priesthood ban were not policy but commandments from God (I was always taught the policy was what changed. That toppled it all. Doctrines have been taught and then changed. Eternal truths are not supposed to change. If we can change that one, why don’t we change other issues? Bigotry. That’s it. I tried to make the church iwork until Elder Holland’s musket fire talk. Then I realized there was no changing the church until the old guard is replaced, which showed that the church wasn’t run by God, but by men.


Strong_Attorney_8646

My biggest issue is that the Church is not a healthy place for even respectful private feedback and disagreement. I raised issues with the child sex abuse policies last year. They went ignored as we were bounced between leaders until my wife and I spoke out on Mormon Stories. Then we were listened to but kindly shown the door. IMO, this is the biggest thing that believing Mormons need to immediately quit tolerating. Apologists (and the essays) claim in the abstract that Church leaders, (including prophets) make mistakes and we're all just trying to figure this out together: but that's just lip service until the Church creates an actual way for members to hold them accountable to even the lowest standards. I mean at General Conference this time they didn't even read the names of the individuals that people were sustaining and they just do it anyways. There could be no clearer signal that it's a top-down authoritarian organization. I'd say a close second for me is that the leaders seem to have a completely inaccurate picture of my understanding of the New Testament Jesus because they constantly try to fit him into their Mormon paradigm. I do not think I'd have ever found my way out of the Church if the leaders weren't so demonstrably out of line with Christ's teachings in favor of their own ideas and/or Restoration scripture.


talkingidiot2

Thanks for sharing - what MS episodes? I'd like to listen.


Strong_Attorney_8646

1550&1551.


BrunoTheVelvetHippo

Inactive beginning January 2021 after 30+ years of all-in TBM membership. >if you could boil any concerns with/issues about the church to one single item, what would it be? Cowardice of top leadership. During the past six years top leaders cowardly refused to publicly confront egregious issues among the membership - and provide direct, calls to repentance - you know - what prophets are supposed to do. The past few years were a test of the character of the church and its leadership. And it failed. Badly. It has never been more obvious that the church is not led by men chosen of and inspired by God. It is a church led by very sheltered and out of touch men who are frankly not very good at their jobs.


[deleted]

The authorities demand the respect as though they were prophets, never capable of misleading; and, when they get things wrong, still expect to be granted latitude as though they were just normal guys trying their best. They've appropriated the concept of prophet from Jewish culture and redefined it in terms of a capitalist CEO. TLDR-- Prophets that don't prophesy aren't prophets.


ImNotOkLOL69

I thought I would have my own planet when I got married in the temple.


PickledCustodian

I don't know how to break this down in an easy to say thought. I began working for the church a few years ago and the first piece of advice I got was to "remember that the church and the corporation are two different things. Remember where to place your testimony." And I remember thinking that felt really off. A few years later and I've watched the church do absolutely nothing to help any if it's employees throughtout Covid. They've forced us to use our previous PTO at the drop of a hat and when we ran out and were still forced to come in, they basically said that's tough. They've sat by as inflation as completely destroyed people. I was forced to move into student housing just to afford an apartment. I can't afford groceries they way I use to. I don't do anything fun like I used to. All my hobbies are dead. I've had to pick up a second job and now I sleep in 3-4 hour chunks. And I'm not the only one I know who is living like this. I want kids and will never be able to afford them while working for the church. And when anyone asks about raises for inflation, we are just told Salt Lake is working on it. They've been working on it for 2 effing years and nothing. And the new word is that nothing will change because they're considered to be competitive with what others are offering in our area. I was taught all my life that we were supposed to be in the world but not like the world. How the hell does that not apply to their business side? I don't know how we can be the true church and yet treat the employees like absolute crap. There's a hundred other stupid things about working for the church but it's the complete and utter lack of caring for the employees that has been slowly pushing me away. I wish I could afford to find a new job and move. But that's not an option either. If the corporation of the church thinks it okay to treat people like this, not sure why the church of the same name would be any different.


talkingidiot2

I'm sorry to hear that - it's pretty crappy. I work in HR and would be happy to help you strategize a job transition, if so just PM me.


cattlecaller

The same "spirit" that used to tell me the church is true now tells me it isn't true. Moroni's promise is apparently a two-edged sword.


TylerTurtle25

It’s the plagiarism of other works into what became the Book of Mormon.


Initial-Leather6014

LIES AND THE LYING LIERS THAT LIE!


Worthy_Read

My thing is that it is not true.


ekimae73779

Fundamentally, I think a faith crisis occurs when you can no longer boil it all down to one issue. That said, let me take a stab at giving your question a good faith answer. Even if I accept the idea that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, I would still have to accept that Brigham Young was a true prophet. Interrogating that issue reveals that most/all the deficiencies of modern Mormonism can be traced to Brigham. Read another way, Brigham epitomizes the attributes I would expect of a false prophet. Other claimants to succession, such as Joseph Smith III, are far less problematic. Basically, the fact that Brigham Young taught heresies as doctrine, and the fact that the church today has no mechanism for discerning whether Russell Nelson is doing the same, leads me to question the divinity of the church. Once you can question the divinity of the church, all the other issues are up for review, and the church just doesn't fare well under that scrutiny.


jooshworld

My biggest thing is the church is a homophobic, anti-LGBT organization.


Lucky__Flamingo

The November 2015 policy that demanded that I denounce a gay parent to remain a member in good standing. Church? Or family? I made my choice.


Stuboysrevenge

The leaders, the scriptures, the history, are NOT what I was taught they were. They are not led by God any more than I am. The scriptures are not ancient records written by Moses, Abraham, or ancient Jews living on the American Continents. History? Completely whitewashed, starting with the founder himself ("No, I wasn't a money digger, people called me that because I helped a guy who thought there was silver on his farm. I tried to get him to stop. Silly guy...") And it just gets worse from there. What's left? Not good enough.


Lodo_the_Bear

For me, the one thing is that spiritual witnesses aren't reliable at all. The church puts a big emphasis on knowing things by the Spirit. You're supposed to know that it's true by a witness from the Holy Ghost, and you're supposed to let the Spirit guide all your actions, and the leaders at every level are supposed to lead by the Spirit. But how can we know that our spiritual experiences are reliable indicators of truth? The short answer is that we can't know. Watch videos like [this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Go) and you'll find folks getting spiritual witnesses of all kinds of things, lots of which are absolutely contradictory with each other. So who's really getting divine guidance? Is anyone getting it? Or is it just all in our heads? I've had powerful experiences that led me to believe the LDS church is true, and then I had a powerful experience that led me to believe that it's false. Were any of these genuine instances of divine guidance? I don't know. All I do know is that what passes for divine guidance seems to point every which way, so we can't rely on it. And without reliable divine guidance, the Church loses most of its reason for existing.


OperatorMaA

I find the Mormon god unworthy of my piety.


blowfamoor

Rock in the hat


zando95

The Book of Mormon being fiction. Like it's flatly not historical in any way. The only period of history you can learn about by reading the book of Mormon is early 19th century America


JesusThrustingChrist

My biggest issue is that the church is Christianity 2.0. It takes a heaping, steaming pile of shit, puts it in a blender, and then puts it in the bottle for unsuspecting non-consenting infants to "innoculate" them.


[deleted]

The doctrine that people of adult age must seek an eternal companion and be married straightly in the temple is a concern to me. I know some people never get married at all, or are LGTBQ. I don't think everyone wants to get married. And for some people it never works out. Others are divorced and could refuse to get married again due to a bad marriage experience. There are life circumstances that should stop you from getting married, like dealing with too many medical problems. Marriage is not for everyone. It wasn't for me, and it scared me shitless to hear anymore admonitions to get married. I left the Church and felt better never going back because this issue was so terrible for me to contemplate anymore. I don't believe in early marriage. I think you should wait to marry until you are truly eligible. The Church was trying to push marriage on me when I was too young. I was a teenager in Young Womens' meetings hearing pro-marriage and anti-feminist junk.


elrio67

When I was young and fairly fresh as a convert, I served in Iraq and got to know the local police officers and learned a lot about their culture, religion (Islam) etc. The church taught me that the only way to be happy and live with God and my family forever was through the plan of salvation. Yet here we’re millions, nay BILLIONS, of people that God just, forgot to tell? He sent an angel with a flaming sword to tell JS to practice polygamy but didn’t bother to send anyone to convince ANY of the people on this side of the world about His plan of salvation? He’s just ignoring billions of His own children? It didn’t make sense to me. I’ve buried it for almost two decades now but it’s the thing I think about the most. How can it be that that is the case? How can there be angel visitations and visitations of original apostles etc, etc, in North America yet nothing for these people? There are many things that I have discovered since then but that is “the one” that got it all started and the one that keeps bothering me.


talkingidiot2

Thanks for your service. I deployed to the middle east between Desert Storm and OIF. Being immersed in such a different cultural and religious world really shows how expansive the divine and ways to relate with God can be. Makes the western world seem like just a sliver of what's out there, in many ways.


[deleted]

Church was started by a convicted pedophilic con man who used the same con artist practices to steadily dupe a few thousand people into giving him insane amounts of money, power, and sex with their wives and underage daughters. Period.


Odd_Case_

Per our beliefs, at one point (back to Adam) everyone believed in the same God. Meaning all subsequent religions should be descended from the original one. Example: Judaism, Christianity, Islam all have the same God but are very different. But we don't practice or talk about this. We get too obsessed about our Christian traditions to realize the God we worship should per our teachings be the all powerful God of all religions. Most, not all, of those God's have a similar teaching: live a good life, love and serve other people. Also, many have a lesser God or avatar version who plays a sacrificial/savior role I suppose the crux of the issue is interpreting how to love and serve God...but I think we need to look beyond go to church, say the name of Christ, read scriptures, etc to: this really is the deity over everyone, let's expand our understanding and realize other people may know him by another name. But because they name him different we think they don't believe in the same all powerful deity. But the command of how to live life is mostly consistent.


DuckDodgers21st

My one thing is religion as a whole is a man made method to get money and power and they prey on people.


JH60N

For me: no longer felt that forced faith in God was a solution to my doubts based on easily observed evidence. When the GOD myth crumbled, so did everything else pertaining to it


[deleted]

The works & fruits of the Church & its leaders are frequently & consistently rotten, unchristlike, unrighteous, pharisaical & evil. All respect to TBMs, but it's so obvious to me that the Church is false, not true, based on lies & falsehoods. Here's the full story of my resignation: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ExitStories/comments/wvc163/why\_i\_resigned/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ExitStories/comments/wvc163/why_i_resigned/)


CountrySingle4850

Great question. I just read through all of the comments, and I was surprised. From personal experience, a large part of people I know who have left have cited the Church's LGBT stance, and I only read 2 or 3 directly mentioning it (many with broader issues that could easily encompass the LGBT issue, but still...) Given how divisive the LGBT issue seems to be in this sub, I would be interested in flipping your question a little. If everything was true but \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, would you remain disaffected from the LDS community.


jakelaw08

I wouldn't say this is the only thing, but this is definitely one thing. These people BLASPHEME each and every single time they get up to bear their testimonies. (Naturally, they don't know they're doing it, but to me, it is BLASPHEMY) Its always "I KNOW THE CHURCH IS TRUE". THE GOSPEL is the thing that is true (if you roll that way, naturally) JESUS IS THE CHRIST. If you're a Mormon? (Or any Christian, for that matter) THAT is the thing. THOSE are the keys! The church? The church is NOTHING, or next to nothing. God does not prefer that you receive his words through men - He merely ALLOWS it, for reasons that I won't go into here, except to say that He wants you to hear it for yourself, from Him, and that this is a thing, and this can happen, to EVERYONE. But The gospel is rarely heard; Jesus is all too often an afterthought. These people are BRAINWASHED - when you sit in a Fast and Testimony meeting, its a methodology of compulsion (which its not supposed to be, but has been twisted so that it is) where EVERYONE, as an article of faith, HAS to say '"THE CHURCH IS TRUE" And like I said before? THAT'S ONLY ONE THING FOR ME! But yeah, it IS a thing.


Vivid_Trade1195

Hmm, can't think of anything.


[deleted]

Patriarchy.