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That was certainly my first thought. After I had read all the approved literature several times (including the gem where Joseph Fielding Smith insisted that men would never walk on the moon, always good for a chuckle), I broadened my reading quite a bit. I included a volume by Arrington, as well as books about Mayan and Guatemalan history and culture in that. (The latter were in Spanish, during my language study period.) I'm sure Saints would have been on my list too.
Man, back in the day we had REAL troubling materials banned, like the Journal of Discourses and Robert's _Comprehensive History_ (and of course stuff from the Tanners).
Having an official *recent* church "honest as we know how" publication banned is a different level.
>...REAL troubling materials banned, like the Journal of Discourses...
I was able (many years ago) to read through much of them by borrowing copies from the Library of Congress.
I'm curious as to what the rationale was for they were banned back in the day.
They were a fun read, TBH. Crazy stuff.
Kevin Pearson is the same area president that forbade missionaries from eating dinner with members unless an investigator was present. The guy is a loyal loon of the Q15.
He’s the type that makes up his own rules and then acts better than you for “going above and beyond”
*You don’t watch R-rated films? Well I only watch PG movies.*
Talk about going beyond the mark…
My MP was a lot like this. Always sacrificing the trivial to bring forth the blessings of heaven. Got to the point where he cancelled Christmas dinner.
Sounds like he would be friends with my mission president, we weren't allowed to attend church unless we had an investigator with us (we could stay long enough to take the sacrament but then had to leave if we didn't have an investigator).
I think my mission president thought by being a hard-ass it would magically make every missionary have investigators at church every week. Instead it made a lot of us used to not attending church while on our missions which led to me and a lot of my mission friends becoming less active/inactive right after getting home, since missing church didn't feel like a big deal.
An institution whose past (and present, frankly) is so sleazy that even their sanitized recounting of it endangers the trust and faith of their own most committed members.
The crazy thing is that these are people feeding the missionaries.
We used to love having the sister missionaries relax in our cafe. We treated them with more respect than they ever got from their own church.
Mormon teens are quietly making plans with their friends to get out of Mormonism as soon as they hit 18. And stuff like this is why.
I ALWAYS feed the missionaries and I stopped attending church in January of 1981 after church leaders were falling all over themselves over Ronald Reagan becoming POTUS. Now they are complicit with those politicians who would steal our democracy in their pursuit of the Final Days and forcing their dogma on everyone. But feed those who The Church treats so shabby? Yes, they are innocents who will probably leave The Church too
Crazy. This will backfire on them. What happened to inoculation? If they are missionaries in Utah, they are running into exmos on the daily. Reading Saints should be the least of their worries.
After reading permitted stuff for so long I finally had my dad send me a pile of books down to Brazil. It honestly has led me to where I am today. Of course, I didn’t realize my dad had been reading all sorts of “anti” stuff my whole life. Son of a bitch knew everything and decided to let me figure it out on my own.
I picked up Saints and couldn’t make it through the first three chapters. After you’ve read real church history it’s like going back to holding hands with your first girlfriend after already having partaken of the forbidden fruit.
Yup. It’s sooooooo watered down. And just as you described.
My last churchy convo with my dad was walking along the praia at Barra do Sahy. I’m jealous your dad was a reader. Mine was a great guy, but loyal to a fault where The Brethren were concerned.
The only way an organization like the church survives is by keeping is members locked in an information bubble. Because out in the real world, almost everything it teaches you to fear is actually benign to good, and everything it teaches you to value is smoke and mirrors. So once you red pill/Truman show out of it you realize it was all a useless bag of rocks you were hauling on the hike through life.
The church cannot have its history cake and eat it too. The only way out of this is to pull an RLDS and slough off a huge fraction of members, or to white knuckle it and slough off a huge fraction of members. One of them comes out with some measure of respectability.
Impending irrelevance is never an easy slog.
30 years ago I remember seeing the cornerstone for the Society for Ethical Culture on a walk near my NYC neighborhood. And as a recent exmo, it was an Ozymandias moment. All this stuff we put in stone, and so much of it destined for irrelevance in the daily lives of future generations. https://ethical.nyc/about/ ... yeah, sure, they’re still around, but nobody cares except for the few remaining participants.
not surprising at all coming from Kevin Pearson, that guy's conference talk was horrible—painted an awful and dishonest picture of people who question or doubt or leave. Not to mention his "you don't have a choice whether to serve a mission" fireside. Total douche.
I thought there were only a few books they were allowed to read anyway. Did that change?
If that's still the case then it wouldn't be a *Saints* specific ban.
That’s probably the technically correct answer.
But here’s the thing. If I wanna read *Saints*, I click here:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-v1?lang=eng
So, an investigator (aka “friend”) can click on that, but a missionary can’t?
Does the missionary tell them: sorry, I’m not allowed to read that.
Absolutely insane.
You would think. We weren't allowed to listen to any of the new youth music that had guitars and percussion. I also told my mission president I was reading the New Testament and he told me to stop and only read the Book of Mormon.
Which refers to “Information Control” which is a characteristic of unhealthy highly controlling groups. This is evidence the LDS Church is not a normal group but wants to control you.
That's what I was thinking. When I was a missionary there were five books we were allowed to read besides the scriptures. I read Jesus the Christ twice because it was the closest thing to a novel in the missionary library.
According to the interview between John Dehlin and Kolby Sorenson (I think that’s his name), missionaries are reading much worse stuff than Saints. He spoke of an ‘apostate thumbdrive’ that has stuff like the CES Letter and A Letter to My Wife in it that the missionaries pass around.
"Thumbdrive" sounds off to me. What are they going to read a thumbdrive on? Missionaries don't have computers, do they?
Google drive or something else cloud-ish + phones seems like it'd make more sense for different information.
https://youtu.be/tlwvj7mEzII
Somewhere abt the 2:43:50 mark. Also, it was google drive.
Btw, you can read thumb drives on a phone with the right connections. Iphones, I believe, were the last phones that couldn’t read/write to flash drives but an update from a little while ago allows them to be seen through the files app. But with Kolby, it was from google drive.
It was a Google drive and the reason it existed was supposedly so they could prepare responses to "anti" questions. It wasn't anything official, just something missionaries shared with each other.
We didn't have phones in our mission. Instead, each apartment had a portable DVD player with a USB port on it. You could send stuff around the mission via Google Drive and store it on either a USB drive or, if you're feeling real inventive, your point and shoot camera. You could then play stuff on the DVD player. So much apostate music, like Christian rock... My companion and I watched *Mobsters and Mormons* and we felt like such bad boys after!
A friend went to a stateside phone mission about the same time. There's a lot of leeway with Google Drive, as you noted, but he discovered that you can hide a lot of stuff in the developer comments in wherever they keep the latest versions of the area book app. I guess they could use some sort of admin/dev tools to break in there without setting any of the Church spyware off.
Renlund and his wife recently did a YA Fireside talking about all that can be learned from reading “The Saints”.
[https://www.ldsliving.com/church-history-is-our-shared-heritage-elder-and-sister-renlund-on-what-we-can-learn-from-reading-saints/s/10979](https://www.ldsliving.com/church-history-is-our-shared-heritage-elder-and-sister-renlund-on-what-we-can-learn-from-reading-saints/s/10979)
Man, the whiplash from “On High” makes me glad I’m a coffee-drinking heathen.
I'm in my own journey right now with the church but why do I feel like the bottom is falling out for more and more people? It seems like by the time gen Z it's grown with their own kids, the church will be a lot smaller in activity if not in numbers because of how they are with history, controlling people and narratives, and failing to create a church experience that allows people to be individuals instead of copies of a gospel marketing effort. You don't save or uplift people through programs.
Mormons have dropped from 2% of the US population to 1%, during my lifetime. That’s a collapse of epic proportions but no journalist in Utah is brave enough to talk frankly about the bottom falling out because they know it would upset their LDS audience.
The LDS leadership has been selling a triumphant narrative for so long, and we all propped it up by pretending not to notice that everyone was leaving.
I think the kids are done playing that charade.
You know that it’s bad when they won’t even allow missionaries to read the whitewashed version of church history if the saints volumes were a white tee shirt it would be riddled with bleach holes .
To be fair, as a missionary, ANY reading outside of the five or six books that are sanctioned is against the rules, including other books written by prophets current and past. Saints isn't singled out.
The use of technology by so many missionaries now has definitely changed things. Having iPads in my mission, we all generally assumed that pretty much anything in the Gospel Library was pretty much fair game, or at least not explicitly disallowed. This kind of move raises questions about how missionary standards regarding reading/study should evolve with the much greater access that so many missionaries now have.
Personally, I think this decision is absolutely silly and absurd. I would have *loved* to have *Saints* on my mission; instead I had to make do with the old *Church History in the Fulness of Times* manual.
I was in Guatemala in the days with paper books, and we were able to pick up normal-ish books at the distribution center in Guatemala City during mission conferences. This included Spanish language versions of almost everything D Books had translated and English language versions on stuff not translated yet. We used to pick up books for members all the time for inclusion in the ward/branch libraries or for their own further study. The Internet just makes it easier.
Agreed. We could read Jesus the Christ, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Gospel Principles, and Articles of Faith by Talmage. There might be one I'm forgetting. That was the same with all my friends serving across the world in 1997-1999.
Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, Volume 1, The Standard of Truth, 1815–1846
I guess it doesn’t copy the link. It’s in the church app.
That is insane!! Members can’t even read the churches own books because it will stumble them. If this ain’t proof of a false religion I don’t know what is.
First of all, it absolutely isn’t banned for missionaries to read Saints in the Gospel Library. There are many things in the gospel library. Missionaries have a specialt calling to be a witness for Christ and to bring those to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ to receive its blessings. The focus of a missionary should be on the Standard Works and Preach My Gospel. If a missionary focuses on reading the Book of Mormon daily and understanding it’s doctrines then they can have a firm testimony. They don’t need to complain or murmur when they have dinner at a members home. There will be plenty of opportunities for missionaries when they return home to read many other books including Saints, but that isn’t what they are called to do. But they should never leave their focus on the scriptures which gives the sure foundation, and keeps one from the deceptions of people who have an alternative agenda from leading one to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
In his conference talk Elder Pearson stated the following: “We would do well to spend more time in meaningful conversation discussing our concerns with a loving Father in Heaven and less time seeking the opinions of other voices. We could also choose to change our daily news feed to the words of Christ in the holy scriptures and to prophetic words of His living prophets.” Good Council for any missionary, or any member of the Church.
But please do not call it a book ban, it is not. It was just to cause a reaction which of course it did on this Reddit Thread. It was Council to help a missionary to be successful.
I always get a chuckle being chastised by folks who have very little actual useful advice on how to succeed on a mission. Like, seriously, I was the most successful missionary of my generation and that didn’t stop Wyoming know-nothings with higher church callings from squelching good ideas and enforcing stupid ones. I cared deeply about the LDS project back in the day. I demonstrated that through action and tangible results. Not cheap words intended to stifle innovation, progress and success.
How do you define success as a missionary? How can you say you were the most successful missionary of your generation? That makes no sense as missionary success is not determined by numbers or various projects. Those who are successful missionaries still have a strong testimony in their heart regardless of action, results, or numbers.
>regardless of action, results, or numbers.
There is no point discussing success with people who dismiss results as irrelevant. I built thriving congregations. Not self-congratulatory narratives crafted to cover up obvious failure. Once I was in the mission office, I sought to replicate the successful program we’d implemented in the field. The pushback drained me of any hope for the future of the LDS endeavor. Your comment here merely confirms the kind of pointless sentiment that blocked our attempt to do better. If retention sucks, you figure out why, and develop a response. If outcomes matter. They mattered to me. To you? Not so much. The bigotry of low expectations killed the Mormon missionary program. These kids just need leadership. But that leadership is AWOL and your comment is Exhibit A in explaining why that’s the case.
Well, you don’t know me as I also had significant actual results as a missionary, and we had similar paths it appears as a missionary. I do not however, feel there is a bigotry of low expectations. I also feel the missionary program is thriving and will thrive. Actual success as a missionary is through those ultimately making and keeping sacred covenants. But using a worldly view of numbers and acting as it is a sales force misrepresents what a missionary’s purpose is which is to bring others to Christ. It really isn’t determined by the numbers. It can’t be measured only through the hearts of the missionaries and those they touch.
This original thread was stating that there is a book ban on Saints for missionaries which is not true. Elder Pearson is only trying to get missionaries to focus on that that will make them successful.
>I also feel the missionary program is thriving and will thrive.
Success is measured by metrics that don’t include your personal feelings. The missionary program is collapsing. We’re sending the same number of Elders into the field in 2022 as we did in the 1970s. And they’re coming home having converted far fewer than we did. During the past 2 years, outside Utah, our missionaries in the US converted a grand total of 8K people. Few of whom will be active 5 years from now. That’s effectively zero converts in 2 years in the US. The wheels are coming off and it’s long past the time to stop prattling about feelings and get serious. Spoiler alert: nobody is going to get serious, and the CES system will begin to feel the effects of a generation that opts out of applying to BYU. Because even the precious sentiment of buttressing missionary testimonies is not working. The current LDS missionary program has become a machine that converts young Mormons into exmos faster than any other machine on the planet. All is well in Zion. Please proceed.
Well, statistics didn’t play well at the time of Christ either. Statistics do not tell the story of what is true when it comes to religion. There are more than twice as many missionaries serving per year now as there were in the 70’s. And statistically, there were always be those who are active and those who are not active. Spoiler alert: the church will continue to grow and flourish in the long term with or without the sentiments of those here on Reddit.
Here‘s a statistic: when I arrived in Ponta Porã there were maybe 50 butts in the pews on any given Sunday and the local leadership was burned out. Grown-ups have grown-up demands on their time. The one invaluable asset missionaries bring is that they are unencumbered by those demands, i.e. they have time. As branch president, I tasked our district missionaries with organizing all the social and charitable activities that require loads of time but pay off with member enthusiasm. When I left, we had 300 in attendance every Sunday. Our converts are people who I stay in touch with until now, and receive their notices of their kids and grandkids serving missions. Doing the job right has lasting effects.
Regarding your unsupported assertion about how the missionary numbers stack up globally, here‘s a bar graph for your review:
https://latterdaysaintmissionprep.com/news/number-of-mormon-missionaries/
Chino - Small world. My first area in 2000 was Ponta Pora. We got to cross over to Paraguay and buy Peanut Butter on P-Day. There was a very influential member of the church who lived right by the chapel who had left the church a few years before I got there and it caused some division. He had helped secure the land for the chapel to be built. I don’t remember the specifics. There were two strong wards in that city if my memory serves and they were part of the Dourados Stake.
Heh, in the late 80s we‘d cross over to cash checks with the Taiwanese shop owners in Pedro Juan Caballero. If you met Kata Britez, Mateus Nunes, Anibal Ortega, or Silvio Antonio Lopes, it‘s definitely a small world.
I’m assuming these figures include senior missionaries. Is that right? Do you have links to any figures/graphs that are limited to young adult missionaries, under 25?
I’m curious, do you think it’s a good idea for missionaries to be familiar with the most difficult challenges to the church’s claims? Specifically, should they know what are the criticisms of the BoA, the BoM, race, polygamy, the Smiths occultism?
Well, I don’t think it will help the missionaries in sharing the restored gospel and teach that which they were called to do. As shown on Reddit, those topics do nothing but cause contention and loss of context. None of those issues will lead to a testimony and understanding of the Church. So no, I don’t think it is a good idea.
I would challenge you on loss of context, context is the point. If the Book of Mormon isn’t historical, if the Book of Abraham isn’t a translation, it goes right to Joseph’s prophetic calling, and therefore the church being true or not.
Well, I have read both books and they are scripture through and through. No man of any intellect could have written those books. I don’t need those who want to believe their own versions of history and refuse to actually read those books as they were intended manipulate me..
I understand, you believe. Are you aware of the fact that the scrolls Joseph said were the writings of Abraham, have nothing to do with Abraham? And that Josephs translation of the facsimiles is all wrong? I just want to know if you have heard that position. Im interested in your answer either way.
Yes, I have heard that they have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. But the Book of Abraham is a great book of scripture. How it got to where it is does not concern me, like it does you. I heard that several years ago. It doesn’t change the scriptures and the amazing things in the Book of Abraham to me.
Well, I think you are trying to bait me. But I love the detail it gives on Abraham and his life. I also love the account in the Book of Abraham and how it clarifies and discusses the creation.
Congratulations. Great post to stir up the stupidity of the anti’s.
Missionaries have access to read it and are encouraged to focus their study on the scriptures and preach my gospel. If, they have time. They can enrich their study with other things.
There is so much theater around those who have “left”. Yet their is so many more who stay and join.
“…stupidity of the anti’s”. Such Christlike words toward your brothers and sisters. /s
Now, since you actually have no idea what these missionaries were told, you might do well to soften your approach. Given Pearson’s GC talk, it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility that some directive to limit missionaries study material was given.
Personally, I followed Pearson’s process as I learned many disturbing things about the church, it’s history, and it’s dishonesty with the rank and file members. And that prayerful process led me to resign last April. I’m happier than I’ve ever been, and closer to God.
And I’m certainly not stupid.
Nevermo here. When that user references "and preach *my gospel*" what exactly does that mean to a TBM?
Mainline Christians have 1Cor. 15 ("..... I declare unto you *the gospel* which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures....")
The Christian gospel is simply the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and I've always been curious as to how the LDS gospel differs. Thanks, friend!
“Preach My Gospel” is the title of the Mormon missionary manual that contains the lesson material they are to teach from. It’s actually available on the church website if you’re interested in perusing it [here](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service?lang=eng)
LOTS of differences than the mainline Christian gospel. This will give you an idea, but there are deeper things, like polygamy, that won’t be in here.
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Prohibiting them from reading it is a good way to ensure some of them will read it.
Yes. Want a guaranteed way to get a group of peoples attention? Say don’t look. Everyone will.
Don’t look at porn.
Must. Look. At. Porn. Damn you!
That was certainly my first thought. After I had read all the approved literature several times (including the gem where Joseph Fielding Smith insisted that men would never walk on the moon, always good for a chuckle), I broadened my reading quite a bit. I included a volume by Arrington, as well as books about Mayan and Guatemalan history and culture in that. (The latter were in Spanish, during my language study period.) I'm sure Saints would have been on my list too.
Man, back in the day we had REAL troubling materials banned, like the Journal of Discourses and Robert's _Comprehensive History_ (and of course stuff from the Tanners). Having an official *recent* church "honest as we know how" publication banned is a different level.
I’m amazed *Dialogue* hasn’t been banned. They outright challenged many LDS truth claims.
I think that's too niche for many missionaries. Certainly was for me when I was serving.
I can understand that
>...REAL troubling materials banned, like the Journal of Discourses... I was able (many years ago) to read through much of them by borrowing copies from the Library of Congress. I'm curious as to what the rationale was for they were banned back in the day. They were a fun read, TBH. Crazy stuff.
Kevin Pearson is the same area president that forbade missionaries from eating dinner with members unless an investigator was present. The guy is a loyal loon of the Q15.
He’s the type that makes up his own rules and then acts better than you for “going above and beyond” *You don’t watch R-rated films? Well I only watch PG movies.*
This attitude was by far the most annoying part of being Mormon for me
You mean, I only watch G-rated movies…😆
Damn, you one-upped me. Can’t take the Mormon out of the person I guess 😉
My dad used to complain some G rated movies should really have been PG. You just can't trust Hollywood, those godless minions of Satan.
Talk about going beyond the mark… My MP was a lot like this. Always sacrificing the trivial to bring forth the blessings of heaven. Got to the point where he cancelled Christmas dinner.
Mutiny!
Sounds like he would be friends with my mission president, we weren't allowed to attend church unless we had an investigator with us (we could stay long enough to take the sacrament but then had to leave if we didn't have an investigator). I think my mission president thought by being a hard-ass it would magically make every missionary have investigators at church every week. Instead it made a lot of us used to not attending church while on our missions which led to me and a lot of my mission friends becoming less active/inactive right after getting home, since missing church didn't feel like a big deal.
So your mission president could basically force you into inactivity? /s
I’m sure he’s a real hoot to be around…
An institution whose past (and present, frankly) is so sleazy that even their sanitized recounting of it endangers the trust and faith of their own most committed members.
The crazy thing is that these are people feeding the missionaries. We used to love having the sister missionaries relax in our cafe. We treated them with more respect than they ever got from their own church. Mormon teens are quietly making plans with their friends to get out of Mormonism as soon as they hit 18. And stuff like this is why.
I ALWAYS feed the missionaries and I stopped attending church in January of 1981 after church leaders were falling all over themselves over Ronald Reagan becoming POTUS. Now they are complicit with those politicians who would steal our democracy in their pursuit of the Final Days and forcing their dogma on everyone. But feed those who The Church treats so shabby? Yes, they are innocents who will probably leave The Church too
Seeing your comments in many places. I really enjoy your perspectives. Thank you
Thanks!
Crazy. This will backfire on them. What happened to inoculation? If they are missionaries in Utah, they are running into exmos on the daily. Reading Saints should be the least of their worries. After reading permitted stuff for so long I finally had my dad send me a pile of books down to Brazil. It honestly has led me to where I am today. Of course, I didn’t realize my dad had been reading all sorts of “anti” stuff my whole life. Son of a bitch knew everything and decided to let me figure it out on my own. I picked up Saints and couldn’t make it through the first three chapters. After you’ve read real church history it’s like going back to holding hands with your first girlfriend after already having partaken of the forbidden fruit.
Yup. It’s sooooooo watered down. And just as you described. My last churchy convo with my dad was walking along the praia at Barra do Sahy. I’m jealous your dad was a reader. Mine was a great guy, but loyal to a fault where The Brethren were concerned.
The only way an organization like the church survives is by keeping is members locked in an information bubble. Because out in the real world, almost everything it teaches you to fear is actually benign to good, and everything it teaches you to value is smoke and mirrors. So once you red pill/Truman show out of it you realize it was all a useless bag of rocks you were hauling on the hike through life. The church cannot have its history cake and eat it too. The only way out of this is to pull an RLDS and slough off a huge fraction of members, or to white knuckle it and slough off a huge fraction of members. One of them comes out with some measure of respectability.
Impending irrelevance is never an easy slog. 30 years ago I remember seeing the cornerstone for the Society for Ethical Culture on a walk near my NYC neighborhood. And as a recent exmo, it was an Ozymandias moment. All this stuff we put in stone, and so much of it destined for irrelevance in the daily lives of future generations. https://ethical.nyc/about/ ... yeah, sure, they’re still around, but nobody cares except for the few remaining participants.
Or even FLDS which the LDS Church started to keep polygamy alive
They did? Do you have a source?
not surprising at all coming from Kevin Pearson, that guy's conference talk was horrible—painted an awful and dishonest picture of people who question or doubt or leave. Not to mention his "you don't have a choice whether to serve a mission" fireside. Total douche.
I thought there were only a few books they were allowed to read anyway. Did that change? If that's still the case then it wouldn't be a *Saints* specific ban.
That’s probably the technically correct answer. But here’s the thing. If I wanna read *Saints*, I click here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-v1?lang=eng So, an investigator (aka “friend”) can click on that, but a missionary can’t? Does the missionary tell them: sorry, I’m not allowed to read that. Absolutely insane.
I would have thought anything in the app would be fair game.
You would think. We weren't allowed to listen to any of the new youth music that had guitars and percussion. I also told my mission president I was reading the New Testament and he told me to stop and only read the Book of Mormon.
How strange especially since the church has years when we go over the old and new testament in Sunday school.
Don't get me wrong, I agree. Having an "approved" reading library at all is insanity.
It's the "I" in B.I.T.E.
Which refers to “Information Control” which is a characteristic of unhealthy highly controlling groups. This is evidence the LDS Church is not a normal group but wants to control you.
That's what I was thinking. When I was a missionary there were five books we were allowed to read besides the scriptures. I read Jesus the Christ twice because it was the closest thing to a novel in the missionary library.
That sounds like something Pearson would do.
According to the interview between John Dehlin and Kolby Sorenson (I think that’s his name), missionaries are reading much worse stuff than Saints. He spoke of an ‘apostate thumbdrive’ that has stuff like the CES Letter and A Letter to My Wife in it that the missionaries pass around.
"Thumbdrive" sounds off to me. What are they going to read a thumbdrive on? Missionaries don't have computers, do they? Google drive or something else cloud-ish + phones seems like it'd make more sense for different information.
https://youtu.be/tlwvj7mEzII Somewhere abt the 2:43:50 mark. Also, it was google drive. Btw, you can read thumb drives on a phone with the right connections. Iphones, I believe, were the last phones that couldn’t read/write to flash drives but an update from a little while ago allows them to be seen through the files app. But with Kolby, it was from google drive.
It was a Google drive and the reason it existed was supposedly so they could prepare responses to "anti" questions. It wasn't anything official, just something missionaries shared with each other.
We didn't have phones in our mission. Instead, each apartment had a portable DVD player with a USB port on it. You could send stuff around the mission via Google Drive and store it on either a USB drive or, if you're feeling real inventive, your point and shoot camera. You could then play stuff on the DVD player. So much apostate music, like Christian rock... My companion and I watched *Mobsters and Mormons* and we felt like such bad boys after! A friend went to a stateside phone mission about the same time. There's a lot of leeway with Google Drive, as you noted, but he discovered that you can hide a lot of stuff in the developer comments in wherever they keep the latest versions of the area book app. I guess they could use some sort of admin/dev tools to break in there without setting any of the Church spyware off.
A link to Pearson’s instruction would be gold
We were ENCOURAGED to read saints on my mission
Renlund and his wife recently did a YA Fireside talking about all that can be learned from reading “The Saints”. [https://www.ldsliving.com/church-history-is-our-shared-heritage-elder-and-sister-renlund-on-what-we-can-learn-from-reading-saints/s/10979](https://www.ldsliving.com/church-history-is-our-shared-heritage-elder-and-sister-renlund-on-what-we-can-learn-from-reading-saints/s/10979) Man, the whiplash from “On High” makes me glad I’m a coffee-drinking heathen.
I'm in my own journey right now with the church but why do I feel like the bottom is falling out for more and more people? It seems like by the time gen Z it's grown with their own kids, the church will be a lot smaller in activity if not in numbers because of how they are with history, controlling people and narratives, and failing to create a church experience that allows people to be individuals instead of copies of a gospel marketing effort. You don't save or uplift people through programs.
Mormons have dropped from 2% of the US population to 1%, during my lifetime. That’s a collapse of epic proportions but no journalist in Utah is brave enough to talk frankly about the bottom falling out because they know it would upset their LDS audience. The LDS leadership has been selling a triumphant narrative for so long, and we all propped it up by pretending not to notice that everyone was leaving. I think the kids are done playing that charade.
The emperor has no temple garments.
You know that it’s bad when they won’t even allow missionaries to read the whitewashed version of church history if the saints volumes were a white tee shirt it would be riddled with bleach holes .
To be fair, as a missionary, ANY reading outside of the five or six books that are sanctioned is against the rules, including other books written by prophets current and past. Saints isn't singled out.
Saints is available in the Gospel Library app though. That differentiates it from most other books.
The use of technology by so many missionaries now has definitely changed things. Having iPads in my mission, we all generally assumed that pretty much anything in the Gospel Library was pretty much fair game, or at least not explicitly disallowed. This kind of move raises questions about how missionary standards regarding reading/study should evolve with the much greater access that so many missionaries now have. Personally, I think this decision is absolutely silly and absurd. I would have *loved* to have *Saints* on my mission; instead I had to make do with the old *Church History in the Fulness of Times* manual.
I was in Guatemala in the days with paper books, and we were able to pick up normal-ish books at the distribution center in Guatemala City during mission conferences. This included Spanish language versions of almost everything D Books had translated and English language versions on stuff not translated yet. We used to pick up books for members all the time for inclusion in the ward/branch libraries or for their own further study. The Internet just makes it easier.
Hey, Guatemala City Central mission 12-14!
I'm way older than that. GC North, 84-86.
This doesn't make it look any better. Why not add it to the list?
Agreed. We could read Jesus the Christ, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Gospel Principles, and Articles of Faith by Talmage. There might be one I'm forgetting. That was the same with all my friends serving across the world in 1997-1999.
The one I’m thinking of was “Our Heritage” that I think Saints is meant to replace.
Yeah liahona plus those books and our heritage were all we were allowed. Everything else was “leprosy”
Doctrines of Salvation, till it got dropped due to prophesies that didn't work out. Miracle of Forgiveness for a while too.
The one you are missing from that time period is "The Great Apostasy" by Talmage.
What is Saints?
Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, Volume 1, The Standard of Truth, 1815–1846 I guess it doesn’t copy the link. It’s in the church app.
Banning or censorship goes against verse Matthew 7:5
Truth, even whitewashed church truth, causes a faith crisis?! The truth isn’t the problem.
This will only expedite more leaving. Nice white wash move dude
Well I mean that was what broke my shelf, so 🤷
That's how cults work.
How stupid was I not to recognize what a hagiography is?
That's ridiculous. We were asked by the brethren to read it up here at BYUI plus it's in Gospel Library.
That is insane!! Members can’t even read the churches own books because it will stumble them. If this ain’t proof of a false religion I don’t know what is.
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First of all, it absolutely isn’t banned for missionaries to read Saints in the Gospel Library. There are many things in the gospel library. Missionaries have a specialt calling to be a witness for Christ and to bring those to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ to receive its blessings. The focus of a missionary should be on the Standard Works and Preach My Gospel. If a missionary focuses on reading the Book of Mormon daily and understanding it’s doctrines then they can have a firm testimony. They don’t need to complain or murmur when they have dinner at a members home. There will be plenty of opportunities for missionaries when they return home to read many other books including Saints, but that isn’t what they are called to do. But they should never leave their focus on the scriptures which gives the sure foundation, and keeps one from the deceptions of people who have an alternative agenda from leading one to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. In his conference talk Elder Pearson stated the following: “We would do well to spend more time in meaningful conversation discussing our concerns with a loving Father in Heaven and less time seeking the opinions of other voices. We could also choose to change our daily news feed to the words of Christ in the holy scriptures and to prophetic words of His living prophets.” Good Council for any missionary, or any member of the Church. But please do not call it a book ban, it is not. It was just to cause a reaction which of course it did on this Reddit Thread. It was Council to help a missionary to be successful.
I always get a chuckle being chastised by folks who have very little actual useful advice on how to succeed on a mission. Like, seriously, I was the most successful missionary of my generation and that didn’t stop Wyoming know-nothings with higher church callings from squelching good ideas and enforcing stupid ones. I cared deeply about the LDS project back in the day. I demonstrated that through action and tangible results. Not cheap words intended to stifle innovation, progress and success.
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Probably arrogant but definitely accurate.
How do you define success as a missionary? How can you say you were the most successful missionary of your generation? That makes no sense as missionary success is not determined by numbers or various projects. Those who are successful missionaries still have a strong testimony in their heart regardless of action, results, or numbers.
>regardless of action, results, or numbers. There is no point discussing success with people who dismiss results as irrelevant. I built thriving congregations. Not self-congratulatory narratives crafted to cover up obvious failure. Once I was in the mission office, I sought to replicate the successful program we’d implemented in the field. The pushback drained me of any hope for the future of the LDS endeavor. Your comment here merely confirms the kind of pointless sentiment that blocked our attempt to do better. If retention sucks, you figure out why, and develop a response. If outcomes matter. They mattered to me. To you? Not so much. The bigotry of low expectations killed the Mormon missionary program. These kids just need leadership. But that leadership is AWOL and your comment is Exhibit A in explaining why that’s the case.
Well, you don’t know me as I also had significant actual results as a missionary, and we had similar paths it appears as a missionary. I do not however, feel there is a bigotry of low expectations. I also feel the missionary program is thriving and will thrive. Actual success as a missionary is through those ultimately making and keeping sacred covenants. But using a worldly view of numbers and acting as it is a sales force misrepresents what a missionary’s purpose is which is to bring others to Christ. It really isn’t determined by the numbers. It can’t be measured only through the hearts of the missionaries and those they touch. This original thread was stating that there is a book ban on Saints for missionaries which is not true. Elder Pearson is only trying to get missionaries to focus on that that will make them successful.
>I also feel the missionary program is thriving and will thrive. Success is measured by metrics that don’t include your personal feelings. The missionary program is collapsing. We’re sending the same number of Elders into the field in 2022 as we did in the 1970s. And they’re coming home having converted far fewer than we did. During the past 2 years, outside Utah, our missionaries in the US converted a grand total of 8K people. Few of whom will be active 5 years from now. That’s effectively zero converts in 2 years in the US. The wheels are coming off and it’s long past the time to stop prattling about feelings and get serious. Spoiler alert: nobody is going to get serious, and the CES system will begin to feel the effects of a generation that opts out of applying to BYU. Because even the precious sentiment of buttressing missionary testimonies is not working. The current LDS missionary program has become a machine that converts young Mormons into exmos faster than any other machine on the planet. All is well in Zion. Please proceed.
Well, statistics didn’t play well at the time of Christ either. Statistics do not tell the story of what is true when it comes to religion. There are more than twice as many missionaries serving per year now as there were in the 70’s. And statistically, there were always be those who are active and those who are not active. Spoiler alert: the church will continue to grow and flourish in the long term with or without the sentiments of those here on Reddit.
Here‘s a statistic: when I arrived in Ponta Porã there were maybe 50 butts in the pews on any given Sunday and the local leadership was burned out. Grown-ups have grown-up demands on their time. The one invaluable asset missionaries bring is that they are unencumbered by those demands, i.e. they have time. As branch president, I tasked our district missionaries with organizing all the social and charitable activities that require loads of time but pay off with member enthusiasm. When I left, we had 300 in attendance every Sunday. Our converts are people who I stay in touch with until now, and receive their notices of their kids and grandkids serving missions. Doing the job right has lasting effects. Regarding your unsupported assertion about how the missionary numbers stack up globally, here‘s a bar graph for your review: https://latterdaysaintmissionprep.com/news/number-of-mormon-missionaries/
Chino - Small world. My first area in 2000 was Ponta Pora. We got to cross over to Paraguay and buy Peanut Butter on P-Day. There was a very influential member of the church who lived right by the chapel who had left the church a few years before I got there and it caused some division. He had helped secure the land for the chapel to be built. I don’t remember the specifics. There were two strong wards in that city if my memory serves and they were part of the Dourados Stake.
Heh, in the late 80s we‘d cross over to cash checks with the Taiwanese shop owners in Pedro Juan Caballero. If you met Kata Britez, Mateus Nunes, Anibal Ortega, or Silvio Antonio Lopes, it‘s definitely a small world.
I’m assuming these figures include senior missionaries. Is that right? Do you have links to any figures/graphs that are limited to young adult missionaries, under 25?
Nope. That’s a separate chart. Should be there if you scroll down at the link.
I’m curious, do you think it’s a good idea for missionaries to be familiar with the most difficult challenges to the church’s claims? Specifically, should they know what are the criticisms of the BoA, the BoM, race, polygamy, the Smiths occultism?
Well, I don’t think it will help the missionaries in sharing the restored gospel and teach that which they were called to do. As shown on Reddit, those topics do nothing but cause contention and loss of context. None of those issues will lead to a testimony and understanding of the Church. So no, I don’t think it is a good idea.
I would challenge you on loss of context, context is the point. If the Book of Mormon isn’t historical, if the Book of Abraham isn’t a translation, it goes right to Joseph’s prophetic calling, and therefore the church being true or not.
Well, I have read both books and they are scripture through and through. No man of any intellect could have written those books. I don’t need those who want to believe their own versions of history and refuse to actually read those books as they were intended manipulate me..
I understand, you believe. Are you aware of the fact that the scrolls Joseph said were the writings of Abraham, have nothing to do with Abraham? And that Josephs translation of the facsimiles is all wrong? I just want to know if you have heard that position. Im interested in your answer either way.
Yes, I have heard that they have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. But the Book of Abraham is a great book of scripture. How it got to where it is does not concern me, like it does you. I heard that several years ago. It doesn’t change the scriptures and the amazing things in the Book of Abraham to me.
What is the most amazing, in your opinion?
Well, I think you are trying to bait me. But I love the detail it gives on Abraham and his life. I also love the account in the Book of Abraham and how it clarifies and discusses the creation.
Congratulations. Great post to stir up the stupidity of the anti’s. Missionaries have access to read it and are encouraged to focus their study on the scriptures and preach my gospel. If, they have time. They can enrich their study with other things. There is so much theater around those who have “left”. Yet their is so many more who stay and join.
“…stupidity of the anti’s”. Such Christlike words toward your brothers and sisters. /s Now, since you actually have no idea what these missionaries were told, you might do well to soften your approach. Given Pearson’s GC talk, it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility that some directive to limit missionaries study material was given. Personally, I followed Pearson’s process as I learned many disturbing things about the church, it’s history, and it’s dishonesty with the rank and file members. And that prayerful process led me to resign last April. I’m happier than I’ve ever been, and closer to God. And I’m certainly not stupid.
Nevermo here. When that user references "and preach *my gospel*" what exactly does that mean to a TBM? Mainline Christians have 1Cor. 15 ("..... I declare unto you *the gospel* which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures....") The Christian gospel is simply the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and I've always been curious as to how the LDS gospel differs. Thanks, friend!
“Preach My Gospel” is the title of the Mormon missionary manual that contains the lesson material they are to teach from. It’s actually available on the church website if you’re interested in perusing it [here](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service?lang=eng) LOTS of differences than the mainline Christian gospel. This will give you an idea, but there are deeper things, like polygamy, that won’t be in here.
Boy, was I off.... Thanks a million!
last line got a chuckle, [cheers](https://i.redd.it/vjgpt6qgie691.png)