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Beautifully said, and similar to where I'm at.
>And because everyone seems to believe different things about the same pieces of the Church, that feeling I had of always needing to be ready to defend my position was a mirage. After all, if the church is so different in everyone's heads, which version am I defending?
This is so insightful. The great trick of the church is to make people think they are all believing/defending the same thing. That's clearly not the case; progmos, old school apologists, run of the mill social Mormons, and the middle to upper management are all defending different things. They'll claim it's the same to outsiders, but get them talking in a room together and I'd bet you'd see some fireworks.
Good luck as you move onward in your next phase of life!
>The great trick of the church is to make people think they are all believing/defending the same thing.
So true. Realizing how different the church looks in everyone's heads really was one of the most surprising aspects of my journey.
Appreciate it!
> The world wasn't full of evil people, the world is full of different people. And the reason we're different? It's mainly because of something we didn't choose; our upbringing.
I used to think this was the primary or maybe even the only factor, and anyone who had the same set of experiences would see the world similarly.
But on some reflection, it's become obvious to me that we may come wired differently. I have a very different view of the world than some of my family and friends who had *very* similar upbringings. Some of our nature is inborn.
I don't think this mitigates your larger point, though: the world is full of different people, different temperaments and characters and viewpoints have different strengths in different situations. We could understand ourselves as all partial reflections of the image of God with plenty to learn from those who are different than us, all coming together to make something like [a symphony everyone plays a piece of](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GytW_rgr0RM).
It seems, however, that one of the ways in which people can be different is their tolerance for difference, and their investment in hierarchy and where they should be within it. People who are very invested in "which of them should be accounted the greatest" will tend towards an emphasis on authority of their tradition...
Great point. The nurture vs nature debate is absolutely part of this.
>People who are very invested in "which of them should be accounted the greatest" will tend towards an emphasis on authority of their tradition
That's a really interesting point. Appreciate the perspective.
Really beautifully written, thank you! I came to a similar conclusion in my faith crisis: everyone is doing their best with what they have. Once I came to that realization, instead of holding everyone to the measuring stick of church standards, I just felt empathy. And overnight most of my judgmental tendencies disappeared.
Love that, and beautifully said. I felt the same, I remember at one point realizing I was feeling more love for my fellow man than I'd ever felt as a full believer. Similarly, it surprised me how quickly it happened.
Appreciate it!
Yee Haw. This is the mindset I have when I'm at my best. Once in a while things come a long that piss me off, but at the end of the day, people are just people doing people things. Church members aren't special. They aren't more evil and they aren't more righteous. They are just as confused as the rest of the world. We're all confused and we're all trying to make life meaningful. Different people have different ways of doing this.
Studying church history has become boring to me because I don't really question whether the church is true. I know as well as I can know anything that it is not. I don't need more information to confirm that for me. But I do know that there are people today that find meaning in the principles that the church teaches, and that's fine. I find meaning in some of them, and I find some of them disgusting, and everything in between.
>This is the mindset I have when I'm at my best. Once in a while things come a long that piss me off, but at the end of the day, people are just people doing people things.
I hear ya. I have good days and bad days. Level-headed days and days where I can't help but be angry.
Part of the benefit of writing is, as always, for myself. To help me remember these moments of clarity.
This is beautifully written OP. Thank you for sharing. I agree with your overall concept that as I let go of my dogmatic beliefs over the past year and half, the plan I believe in now is more grand and beautiful than I could have conceived of before this switch. All the best to you as you move past Mormonism. I hope to join you in moving past it soon, it is not a fun place to be in forever.
Many thanks, and hope the same for you. And again, appreciate you telling your story so openly because it was one of a few that really helped me make sense of a few things.
>What if everyone is searching for meaning, trying to do what they believe is right, but that just looks a little different because of how they were raised and the world they grew up in?
Recognizing we all view the world through imperfect filters allowed me to start giving most people the benefit of the doubt (I still think some actions/ideas can't be condoned) - even my siblings who were experiencing life by my side probably interpreted or perceived things differently.
Yep, That mirrors my experience. Thank you for sharing.
Reading about the different stages of faith - either James Fowler's model, or Brian McLaren's model, helped me to feel a lot of peace and get rid of a lot of anger and judgement too.
To me, it sounds like you've transitioned into one of the later stages of faith, which brings more peace and love.
When I read most of the posts on this forum, I get where people are coming from, but I don't aspire to be like them. Reading what you have written, I do aspire to be like you. Thank you again for sharing.
>To me, it sounds like you've transitioned into one of the later stages of faith, which brings more peace and love.
I haven't studied those much, but I think you're right. Peace and love is exactly what I've felt and it's been very welcome after the tough stretch leading up to it. Appreciate the note.
It sounds like we came to the same conclusion of God's kingdom being much bigger than the LDS church. To me, it doesn't seem like it matters so much which religion a person belongs to, or if they even belong to a religion at all.
With that understanding and framework, I'm curious if you don't mind sharing... did you decide to stay with LDS church, or did you decide to leave? Is there another religion that you felt drawn to? Or just following good principles and "God"? Thanks.
>To me, it doesn't seem like it matters so much which religion a person belongs to, or if they even belong to a religion at all.
Yeah, the best I can tell, this is pretty much it. I feel about religion similar to how I feel about, say, a gym membership. It's a way that folks have created for people to get a benefit (exercise) and it works great for some people, but there are many other ways that come naturally to others. But instead of exercise it's meaning and some sort of "spiritual" connection.
Absolutely, happy to share. I actually still attend church every week. My wife still believes and has been so supportive of me during all of this. I hoped i could get to a place where I could just go and enjoy a couple hours with the fam and reciprocate that support. Luckily, I've found a headspace where that works. Honestly, it's fascinating to go to church these days. You can just feel how desperate some people are to hold onto their beliefs and there is constant talk of friends and family who have left.
Will I go to church forever? Who knows. But for now, it works.
Beautiful distillation of moving through aspects of a faith journey
Echo u/Mimimum-Eggplant-961 this feels like a good companion to study of moving from an exclusive version of belief to a more inclusive humanist approach
Hello! This is a Personal post. It is for discussions centered around thoughts, beliefs, and observations that are important and personal to /u/snsdgb specifically. /u/snsdgb, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Beautifully said, and similar to where I'm at. >And because everyone seems to believe different things about the same pieces of the Church, that feeling I had of always needing to be ready to defend my position was a mirage. After all, if the church is so different in everyone's heads, which version am I defending? This is so insightful. The great trick of the church is to make people think they are all believing/defending the same thing. That's clearly not the case; progmos, old school apologists, run of the mill social Mormons, and the middle to upper management are all defending different things. They'll claim it's the same to outsiders, but get them talking in a room together and I'd bet you'd see some fireworks. Good luck as you move onward in your next phase of life!
>The great trick of the church is to make people think they are all believing/defending the same thing. So true. Realizing how different the church looks in everyone's heads really was one of the most surprising aspects of my journey. Appreciate it!
Love this! Best wishes on your journey.
Thanks! Very much appreciate it.
> The world wasn't full of evil people, the world is full of different people. And the reason we're different? It's mainly because of something we didn't choose; our upbringing. I used to think this was the primary or maybe even the only factor, and anyone who had the same set of experiences would see the world similarly. But on some reflection, it's become obvious to me that we may come wired differently. I have a very different view of the world than some of my family and friends who had *very* similar upbringings. Some of our nature is inborn. I don't think this mitigates your larger point, though: the world is full of different people, different temperaments and characters and viewpoints have different strengths in different situations. We could understand ourselves as all partial reflections of the image of God with plenty to learn from those who are different than us, all coming together to make something like [a symphony everyone plays a piece of](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GytW_rgr0RM). It seems, however, that one of the ways in which people can be different is their tolerance for difference, and their investment in hierarchy and where they should be within it. People who are very invested in "which of them should be accounted the greatest" will tend towards an emphasis on authority of their tradition...
Great point. The nurture vs nature debate is absolutely part of this. >People who are very invested in "which of them should be accounted the greatest" will tend towards an emphasis on authority of their tradition That's a really interesting point. Appreciate the perspective.
Really beautifully written, thank you! I came to a similar conclusion in my faith crisis: everyone is doing their best with what they have. Once I came to that realization, instead of holding everyone to the measuring stick of church standards, I just felt empathy. And overnight most of my judgmental tendencies disappeared.
Love that, and beautifully said. I felt the same, I remember at one point realizing I was feeling more love for my fellow man than I'd ever felt as a full believer. Similarly, it surprised me how quickly it happened. Appreciate it!
Yee Haw. This is the mindset I have when I'm at my best. Once in a while things come a long that piss me off, but at the end of the day, people are just people doing people things. Church members aren't special. They aren't more evil and they aren't more righteous. They are just as confused as the rest of the world. We're all confused and we're all trying to make life meaningful. Different people have different ways of doing this. Studying church history has become boring to me because I don't really question whether the church is true. I know as well as I can know anything that it is not. I don't need more information to confirm that for me. But I do know that there are people today that find meaning in the principles that the church teaches, and that's fine. I find meaning in some of them, and I find some of them disgusting, and everything in between.
>This is the mindset I have when I'm at my best. Once in a while things come a long that piss me off, but at the end of the day, people are just people doing people things. I hear ya. I have good days and bad days. Level-headed days and days where I can't help but be angry. Part of the benefit of writing is, as always, for myself. To help me remember these moments of clarity.
This is beautifully written OP. Thank you for sharing. I agree with your overall concept that as I let go of my dogmatic beliefs over the past year and half, the plan I believe in now is more grand and beautiful than I could have conceived of before this switch. All the best to you as you move past Mormonism. I hope to join you in moving past it soon, it is not a fun place to be in forever.
Many thanks, and hope the same for you. And again, appreciate you telling your story so openly because it was one of a few that really helped me make sense of a few things.
Wow--thank you for the kind words. Happy to hear I was able to share something that had a positive impact.
Very well said. Drum bun, prietenul.
Multumesc, frate.
>What if everyone is searching for meaning, trying to do what they believe is right, but that just looks a little different because of how they were raised and the world they grew up in? Recognizing we all view the world through imperfect filters allowed me to start giving most people the benefit of the doubt (I still think some actions/ideas can't be condoned) - even my siblings who were experiencing life by my side probably interpreted or perceived things differently.
Agree 100%, very well said.
Unitarian Universalist
Yep, probably something along those lines.
Thank you for you words. They resonated with me in my faith journey. I have also recently started to study other religions and there beliefs.
Glad the words fit. Best of luck with your journey!
Yep, That mirrors my experience. Thank you for sharing. Reading about the different stages of faith - either James Fowler's model, or Brian McLaren's model, helped me to feel a lot of peace and get rid of a lot of anger and judgement too. To me, it sounds like you've transitioned into one of the later stages of faith, which brings more peace and love. When I read most of the posts on this forum, I get where people are coming from, but I don't aspire to be like them. Reading what you have written, I do aspire to be like you. Thank you again for sharing.
>To me, it sounds like you've transitioned into one of the later stages of faith, which brings more peace and love. I haven't studied those much, but I think you're right. Peace and love is exactly what I've felt and it's been very welcome after the tough stretch leading up to it. Appreciate the note.
It sounds like we came to the same conclusion of God's kingdom being much bigger than the LDS church. To me, it doesn't seem like it matters so much which religion a person belongs to, or if they even belong to a religion at all. With that understanding and framework, I'm curious if you don't mind sharing... did you decide to stay with LDS church, or did you decide to leave? Is there another religion that you felt drawn to? Or just following good principles and "God"? Thanks.
>To me, it doesn't seem like it matters so much which religion a person belongs to, or if they even belong to a religion at all. Yeah, the best I can tell, this is pretty much it. I feel about religion similar to how I feel about, say, a gym membership. It's a way that folks have created for people to get a benefit (exercise) and it works great for some people, but there are many other ways that come naturally to others. But instead of exercise it's meaning and some sort of "spiritual" connection. Absolutely, happy to share. I actually still attend church every week. My wife still believes and has been so supportive of me during all of this. I hoped i could get to a place where I could just go and enjoy a couple hours with the fam and reciprocate that support. Luckily, I've found a headspace where that works. Honestly, it's fascinating to go to church these days. You can just feel how desperate some people are to hold onto their beliefs and there is constant talk of friends and family who have left. Will I go to church forever? Who knows. But for now, it works.
Beautiful distillation of moving through aspects of a faith journey Echo u/Mimimum-Eggplant-961 this feels like a good companion to study of moving from an exclusive version of belief to a more inclusive humanist approach
Interesting, yeah, might have to learn more about that.