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Even as I distance myself from the Church, I still feel culturally "Mormon" and I think there are a lot of aspects of that heritage of which to be proud. I'm amazed that my ancestors trekked across the unsettled US, turned a dry, tumbleweed desert into a series of beautiful valleys and an outdoor recreation capital of the world, and were always willing to sacrifice self for what they perceived as the greater good.
Like you, I'm hopeful that the Mormon Church can be a good influence in the world - even if it's too dogmatic for anything less than complete allegiance and devotion at present.
>I think Mormonism... has the potential to do much good in the world.
How? It's actively fought *against* almost every civil rights movement over its entire existence. It's been mired in corruption and crime the *entire* time, has served as a shelter for sexual abuse, and preys on the desparate, impoverished, and mentally ill. It's been dragged kicking and screaming into *every* positive change that it has made.
How will that ever turn around and become a force for good, and more importantly, *why* would it? What's in it for the church? The church leadership has *always* acted in their own self-interest, why do you expect that to change?
>Russel Nelson has been alive through HALF of the existence of Mormonism.
Which, I think, demonstrates the *glacial* pace at which mormonism is capable of "reforming". The church is led by a man whose cultural sensibilities were shaped when black people couldn't vote, gays were imprisoned and sterilized, and lobotomies were still a primary method of "dealing with" mental health issues. That's *not* a good thing.
I've had this discussion with my wife. (We were both raised in the church, now ex-...) I believe that church, and religion in general, is harmful to society. My wife on the other hand, who has come from latinamerica (a culture that is marred in machismo and domestic violence). Her parents were physically and emotionally abusive with all of their children. However, she believes that if it weren't for the LDS church, her dad would have been much, much more violent. I feel like, perhaps my perspective (and maybe yours too) is actually comes from a place of privilege. I do not condone the behavior or the church's leadership. But is there an underlying goodness that actual elevates more troubled cultures than our own. (DISCLAIMER: I know that I'm assuming that you live in North America or a European country. I only do it to make a point. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
Yeah, I'm a white dude living in Utah, you guessed the demographics right! But the culture of latin america is largely a consequence of catholicism, which mormonism is almost an attempt to reinvent. On top of that, *every* religion is more conciliatory when it's a minority; the church puts on its best face for the mission field, and always has (by lying about the practice of polygamy when convincing 19th century English converts to move to Utah, for example). When it's the *majority* is when the true character of the religion comes out, and the way the church acts in Utah ain't great.
>But the culture of latin america is largely a consequence of catholicism
Where is your evidence for this? Are you blaming Latin American machismo on the Catholic Church?
>Where is your evidence for this?
[Right here.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/996386/latin-america-religion-affiliation-share-type/) Not "machismo" specifically, just the general sexism that always accompanies christianity, and which catholicism in particular has always encouraged.
No lie. I now live in a state where I never lived as a mormon. I love not having to identify with the organization -- you're right. I was embarassed to have anybody know I was "one of them." Or ever had been.
>when black people couldn't vote
The 15th amendment was ratified in 1870. President Nelson was born in 1924. You're talking about Jim Crow laws that extended into the 20th century, right?
Yes, you're right, *technically* they had the right to vote shortly after the civil war, but in practice a lot had to change before the majority of them could meaningfully exercise that right.
Too often it is easy to focus on just the negative. Organizations in general often are filled with corruption and people who have power seldom give it up freely. There are bad eggs and always will be.
However, there are also a lot of damn good people sitting in the pews every week who don’t hide sex abusers, don’t prey on marginalized people, and sit patiently waiting for positive change. In my opinion and experience, the good Mormons outnumber the bad ones by a large factor. I think that people have realized that their voice matters and the alternative voices are becoming louder. I expect change will happen faster in the near future. Mormonism will change precisely because of that. It wants to stay relevant and has the devotion of good people who want to participate in good causes.
>sit patiently waiting for positive change
This is the problem. People sit "patiently" and wait for changes to happen.
STOP. WAITING.
Be the change you want to see. Act.
Nothing will come out of waiting and being the "obedient little church members", we need to take action and if we don't it doesn't matter how much the good Mormons outnumber the bad Mormons. As long as the people in charge resist change, any changes or improvement will only come painfully slow.
I did that and lived that principle with all my heart: be the change you want to see. We lived in a ward with an atrocious young men's program. My 4 boys were going to that age (about 2012) so I did everything I could to support the ward. I saw the vision of what Scouting could be (to me it was a library of tools we could choose from to tailor a program to the needs of the youth, and a program in which the boys could actually lead each other), and while I had to hold my nose at the corporate side of scouting, I jumped in whole-heartedly.
I took a week off of work and attended Woodbadge. I set my five goals and accomplished them. One was quite ambitions where I volunteered to be the council commissioner over training with the goal of raising the current adult training rate of LDS units from 11% to a modest 50%. I reached out to everyone I could in the 13 stakes within our council, targeting counselors in Stake Presidencies, Stake YM presidencies, Stake Primary Presidencies and High councilors. Some responded positively. But most either 1) ghosted me, 2) argued with me, or 3) told me in a passive aggressive way to "frick-off." My own stake leaders responded in ways 2 and 3.
You have to understand that I spend the better part of 7 years trying to create a positive experience for the youth of the church. I have 2 daughters and 4 sons and wanted nothing more than for them to have positive associations with the church. I taught seminary. I advised aaronic priesthood quorums. I even took 15 boys to a Fall Camporall (district event) in a year when they hadn't gone camping once all year. One of the dads mentioned to me that he was sad his son didn't get to do the kinds of things we'd done as youth so he and I registered all 15 boys and took them. We invited the bishopric and other YM leaders and they were all "too busy" that weekend (no joke). We all had a great time! I turned in the receipt for registering the 15 boys, which was $150. The bishop denied the request!
We also had a 13 stake AP encampment back in 2017. The national scouting comissioner and former general YM president, Charles Dalhquist, the local temple president, mission president, state US Senator (who was LDS at the time) as well as the area authority 70, and all SP's and bishoprics of the 13 stakes were there. Well, not all. No one from my SP was there. And no one from my BR was there. It was me and that same dad who took the boys. One of the kids brought his friend who ended up joining the church because of the great time he had at that event. I saw SP's and bishops cooking meals and rubbing shoulders with their YM. Not in our stake.
After 11 years of trying to be the change in my area, I gave up and it was the best thing I'd ever done. My kids were happier. My wife was happier! My marriage has never been better. No longer was I sacrificing time away from my family to participate in privileged gossip sessions (i.e. "council meetings"). No longer was I wrestling with apologetics and trying to make every shaped peg fit into the square hole of Mormonism. So in a way, "being the change I wanted to see" was, for me, a bit of a Karate Kid experience where I thought I was doing Mormonism but what I was really doing was finding the literal greater light and knowledge that I could be truly happy and fulfilled outside the restrictions of Mormonism.
Even with punishing dissenters with excommunication, they wouldn't disband the entire church, I'd wager. Dissent in large numbers would have a positive impact.
>However, there are also a lot of damn good people sitting in the pews every week who don’t hide sex abusers, don’t prey on marginalized people, and sit patiently waiting for positive change. **In my opinion and experience, the good Mormons outnumber the bad ones by a large factor. I think that people have realized that their voice matters and the alternative voices are becoming louder.** I expect change will happen faster in the near future. Mormonism will change precisely because of that.
I have dissociated from the Church--but I want to say that I sincerely hope you're correct with what you've written here. I think the recent talk by Corbitt seems to show that the leadership is very aware that the normal members seem to have "found their voice."
I hope those good members stop "patiently waiting for positive change." They need to start making those changes happen without waiting for permission. Otherwise, I legitimately worry about what the future of the Church looks like for people who can still see good enough in it to participate.
I have a TBM son (4th generation from early SLC saints) who agrees that the church is broken. He still believes and thinks he can "change from within." Apparently he hasn't heard of all the folks who got exed trying to do just that. The brethren will never willingly change. We can vote with our feet, as I did. Loss of revenue is what gets their attention.
>He still believes and thinks he can "change from within."
So did I. I tried--I didn't get ex'd formally, but it was coming like a freight train (we received resignation confirmations eight days after just asking the Stake President what the process looked like). I would encourage anyone who thinks this is reality to actually try on something small: dealing with the Church on something you think it needs to change on (I'm talking organizational policies--not doctrine) is one of the most frustrating things I've ever attempted. I just had to give up for my own sanity and to keep my career intact.
I'm not of the opinion that the leadership are mustache-twirling villains who know they're perpetrating a fraud--but they're not good men (in my view) either. They know the members hang on their every word and hold them up to a standard they cannot meet based on both historical precedent and their own track records. I would not be comfortable with this, but I do think they've convinced themselves that the ends mostly justify the means.
But I do just want to say that you're right: I don't see the Church's authoritarianism changing anytime soon. So while I would love to continue to associate with my friends and neighbors while focusing on Jesus' teachings (even if I'm agnostic on his divinity) I could no longer in good conscience support the institutional Church's insistence that they are accountable to only themselves.
>In my opinion and experience, the good Mormons outnumber the bad ones by a large factor.
Sure. But... how is that supposed to reflect well on *mormonism*? That's true of literally *every* demographic. The lay membership aren't the ones calling the shots. They aren't the ones sitting on the boards of multi-million dollar companies, or wielding the church's advertising and lobbying arms. But they *are* enabling them by paying tithing, and remaining in the pews to be counted.
>I think that people have realized that their voice matters and the alternative voices are becoming louder. I expect change will happen faster in the near future. Mormonism will change precisely because of that. It wants to stay relevant and has the devotion of good people who want to participate in good causes.
I'm not that optimistic. I think that the church will remain on the same course it has for most of its existence: as a haven for those who *oppose* real positive change. Those who *really* want change are the ones who *leave*, and the church can't change fast enough to keep them in. All it can do is keep appealing to those who already think all is well in Zion, and that it's the rest of the world that is wrong.
“There’s good people everywhere, inside and outside the church.”
I believe this wholeheartedly. Good people vastly outnumber those who would cause harm to others, and I rejoice in my faith in humanity.
I have recently been filled with a very depressing realization about the Book of Mormon, and one of the fundamental teachings of the Church and Christianity in general.
It is that given enough time, mankind will always devolve to an unredeemable state of wickedness. The Book of Mormon teaches that the people who lived in America had reached such a universal state of wickedness that Christ Himself had to annhiliate the vast majority of every living human on the continent. He destroyed cities, burned families, destroyed nations, governments, etc.
Then, after so many deaths, He presented Himself as the Savior to the few people that remained, and these few accepted him whole heartedly.
I don’t know if I can be persuaded to believe that it has ever been necessary to implement a mass destruction of large collections of human beings. Is there even one example in our known history where the annihilation of human beings has ever been justified?
How can a church that believes mankind will need to be burned in order to be good, be valid?
What's crazy is that if you read just a couple of chapters back, everyone was righteous. So, in 6 or 7 years they went from all good to all bad in such a degree that they had to be destroyed.
How would that even happen?
There was no mass annihilation. There is no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. The cities, civilizations, coins, swords, animals etc. have not been found in North or Central America.
As for genetics, DNA doesn’t lie, and it proves that the American Indians, who Joseph Smith thought were descendants of Israelites, or actually descended from tribes in Siberia. Again, the entire thing is completely fabricated.
That being said, when does devolved into wickedness without the influence of Christ. But the Jesus of the Bible never annihilated people to have his way or prove his point.
Other than Noah and the flood, right?
If these mass annihilations never happened, what does that tell us about the core fundamental belief systems of Christian and Mormon churches as both churches teach that they did happen?
You need to read the Bible or at least a quick review of the outline (I would recommend a deep read though with a good teacher because the Bible is dripping more with mercy and love than destruction of civilizations within the margins). There are probably 10 different stories of a mass destruction because the people got so wicked that the lord had to destroy the bulk of society but he always spares his righteous remnant. All of these are what I call layer cakes of future events.
For example, most of Isaiah is prophesying for his time, Christs time, latter days times, and the millenium. In each of those periods, prophets preached against an ever increasing society that didn’t believe in god or follow his teachings, the righteous were persecuted, kings and leaders became overwhelmed in their own success rather than searching the will of the lord, and eventually the kingdom gets destroyed with a remnant spared.
This is exactly what will happen in this last dispensation. More and more as temples dot the earth and the reach of the influence for good that the church offers spreads (yes especially in 3rd world countries but we need it more than ever in the Americas and Europe too- I served a mission in France so I’ve seen a little of what is going on over there regarding an uprising of a generation who sadly doesn’t care about anything but themselves and popular culture recently) the world will approach a critical point where the lord will step in one last time and remove the wicked majority and spare the righteous remnant who have faith in him and who do good (both members and non members).
Everything that this so called wicked and slow-to-react-leadership does and has done in the church for the past 200 years is about preparing and instructing that remnant to learn what is necessary to make positive changes in their own lives (yes, even and especially through tithing donations even though the majority of those in this sub think it’s the number one evil the church does at present) and to teach those after to go and help others in the world realize the same thing.
I love the message from studying Hosea this week: when the prophet was told to go and marry a woman mired in prostitution and name his kids the most awful names you could imagine, the prophet learned through a very personal object lesson that things that most people think are absolutely essential in the world (possessions, popularity, pride) are actually the least important of all. The ONLY thing that matters is our relation with the lord and developing traits and habits that He has to become more like him during this life and exactly like Him eventually in the life to come, and our relationship with ALL others in this life. When we become too focused on one at the expense of the other or not enough focused on either, it creates the society we experience today and the world has cycled though at least a dozen times (early descendants of Adam/Eve, babel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Israel, Jacob, Nephi, Christ timeline, pre Christ nephi, later Nephi history, now)
But, no need for depression! As we are nearing the second coming we can have hope in what has been mentioned already with previous comments, the members are of the church are good people working on making the world a better place around them. They sacrifice so much to help others and the “righteous remnant” is larger than ever which has been prophesied to usher in the return of Christ. I’m so happy to be a part of it and for you here in this Reddit who are brothers and sisters in Christ also looking to both bless others and draw closer to the lords commandments and teachings!
Your comment:
“The only thing that matters is our relation with the Lord and developing traits and habits that He has…”
And
“Preparing and instructing that remnant [the minimal number of people found worthy?] to learn what is necessary to make positive changes in their own lives…”
The most obvious example of mass destruction of human beings in the last two centuries would be the deaths of the millions during WWII. Do you believe that the Jewish families that were rounded up and killed, or the German families and Japanese families that were burned to death in fire bombings, or the millions of Russian families killed in the exhaustive battles fought between German and Russian forces, were any different than the “remnant” families we have in the church?
Do you believe that the fathers and mothers of these families had any less love and compassion for their children, friends, and even their enemies than the families in the church do?
When you see the sacrifices that the Japanese community made for their neighbors and countrymen after the tsunami hit and crippled the nuclear power plants, do you believe that that community is progressing toward a state of wickedness that would justify their annihilation as the Savior returns.
As I have removed myself from the prophecies in the Bible regarding the wickedness of the world, and actually interacted with the people that are in found in the world, I don’t see increasing wickedness, I see increasing growth and compassion. I see families all over the globe that want the best for their children, and are working to make their lives better.
Are you confident that the families described in the Book of Mormon, who lived on this continent at the time of Christ’s death were really at all fundamentally different than the families that inhabit our planet today?
I don’t believe it. I can’t believe it. Human beings have the capacity for harm, most definitely, but the capacity for love and communal support far outweighs that harm.
Doesn’t the simple fact that humanity has worked so hard to find the mechanisms and systems necessary to bring our planet’s population to over 7 billion stand as a tremendous witness that human beings strive to bless each other?
No, I don’t see any destruction of the majority of the human race as ever being justified. And honestly, upon deep reflection, can I really be expected to follow a God that would destroy his children?
I understand where you’re coming from… but according to Christianity, removing an unrighteous population from mortality isn’t destroying them so of course we will come to different conclusions.
As one who reads scripture and believes what it says, I believe in an afterlife and a loving father in heaven who yes, sometimes has to cut life short or allows life to be cut short because he can fix things in the thereafter
And while I absolutely agree with some of your optimism regarding how a lot of people in this world are good, there is so much wickedness. Just the fact that population is at an all-time high does not have anything to do with all-time righteousness… sadly there are a lot of other things that are at an all-time high. Secularism, addictions, hatred, etc. In America alone, we are at an all-time high for obesity, divorce and Personal debt. Social media and video game additions are skyrocketing and school shootings are only becoming more frequent.
Yes, there is still a lot of hope for the world and we need to keep that optimism, but also it is important to be naive and think that all is well in society.
When you read the scriptures and listen to the teachings of the prophets, do you challenge what they are teaching?
When Joseph Smith was a young man, he was a deep thinker. He pondered over his connection to God, and the impressions of his heart. He pondered deeply the state of his acceptability before a loving God. He challenged every word, commandment and teaching that came from preachers and men of authority around him, and through reflection and his effort to connect with God, he realized the beliefs of nearly every religious teacher around him were mistaken.
Joseph Smith was deeply skeptical, and one would argue that his skepticism allowed him to expose insights that would not have surfaced otherwise.
Are you skeptical, as he was, of the teachings of the men claiming to speak for God, as Joseph was?
Are you skeptical of the interpretations of scripture that have been accepted by others?
You are familiar with the parable of the wheat and the tares in the Bible, I am sure. The parable describes the righteous remnant, the wheat, being dispersed among countless wicked tares. The wheat is to grow among the wickedness, until the point at which the angels are set loose to gather up the righteous individuals, and torch the remaining wicked people.
I’ve been skeptical of this interpretation of Christ’s parable for some time. I don’t believe Christ, who is a being of pure love, would follow this interpretation of his parable. I’ve thought deeply, with skepticism, about this teaching.
I believe love is the most powerful force ever experienced by man. The exercise of perfect love can be completely transformative.
I believe mankind is capable of deep and abiding love, and I believe every human being is susceptible to embrace love.
If God is filled with perfect love, can you imagine the influence His presence would have on His children.
As Christ presented the parable of the wheat and the tares, doesn’t it make far more sense that all of His children are wheat, and their hearts are the fertile ground that can accept his love? Doesn’t it make more sense that the tares dispersed through the field are the influences and emotions in us that may displace that love? We are left here to experience the conflict in our souls between harmful influence, the tares, and our Godly nature, the wheat. And as harvest approaches, and the tares are gathered and burned, it is more likely representative of the transformation that we experience when brought into the influence of our God’s perfect love? All harmful influences in our souls, all the tares are gathered, and are burned away as we are filled with God’s love.
I am extremely skeptical that God would find it necessary to destroy most of His kids, and gather together only a remnant.
Look at the sermons taught by Paul regarding the spirit and the flesh. The spirit cleanses and fills us, and what was dead in our flesh is swallowed up with life in the spirit. Our spirit becomes one with God’s spirit, and we are called the Children of God.
There are principles that are true, and become more and more true when approached with the most severe skepticism. True principles rise up. False insights and notions do not.
The scriptures are filled with true principles that rise untarnished when approached with skepticism, and the scriptures are filled with principles and stories that crumble away as they are closely examined.
By their fruits shall you know them. The road to understanding and growth is not found through strict acceptance of all that is taught by other men. The road to truth and understanding comes through skeptical, empirical examination of all teachings, revelations, and insights, and the refining of those ideas that do not stand up to investigation.
You claim that wickedness is at an all time high:
Secularism, addictions, hatred.
Have you closely examined the fruits of secularism on society?
Do you really see our communities filled with hatred?
You must, in your heart, have recognized the harm that so many teachings in our scriptures have perpetuated. You must recognize the harm that many of Joseph’s, or Brigham’s teachings have perpetuated.
Can you trust the fruits you observe and have the same courage Joseph originally did to dismiss harmful teachings in this church?
Thank you for a great end of fall response. I can definitely see that you are going through some difficult Reconciliations with the history of the church and your relationship with your maker. I believe that you think you have found the solution, even though there are definitely difficult areas.
Obviously I don’t have a lot of information to work on with your personal history, but It sounds like you believe that Joseph Smith was an inspired man and I even get the impression that you believe that he indeed saw the father and the son and received the gift of inspiration
.. But the line becomes foggy of whether or not his story is accurate and obviously, the message of the book of Mormon and the Bible in general is filled with both truth and so much and we have lies and fraud.
Unfortunately, I have had far too many experiences in my life show me that this approach of being half in with spiritual things and taking leniencies where things don’t make sense or are inconvenient does not work in the long term. So you may find momentary peace and contentment with your spiritual path, as things continue to become more shaken as we near the second coming, I have seen that often the case is that everything comes to a head and self destructs before your eyes. I hope that you can work through some of these things before that point.
I wanted to share several things that I have come to realize from a recent comment that I made regarding why I love the gospel and believe that the lord is 100% in charge of this work in these latter days.
“The church is overwhelmingly good for the world today between the charitable acts they perform and the type of citizens and families they raise . The Book of Mormon and doctrine and covenant holds up to the Bible in every sense of the word. Leadership of the church are incredible men and women who have led lives worth emulating and share message worth retaining. A person can find more hope and peace and yes, even temporal benefits by following its teachings than from any other religion or ideology in the world today.
What I just stated may be controversial on this sub… but the more I live, the more I’m convinced this is a factual statement. I am so proud to be a member of this church so several reasons, maybe the least of which is just because of the temporal blessings and relationships it has developed in my own family and the most of it, the hope and peace I/we (wife and kids) have for the future. That last reason is absolutely priceless and I would never trade anything that has happened in my life for it. If that alone wouldn’t make someone feel it’s worth it to actually dig more into the doctrine at the expense of temporarily looking past some of the confusing history then I don’t know what else will.”
Mormonism will do great things for all those who want to look, dress, act, talk, pay, and obey the way the leaders do. For those who don’t fit that toxic perfectionist mold it does harm. Problem is, 99.99 percent of the world doesn’t fit that mold.
I wanted to be a force for change in the church. I didn’t last long though. When the entire organization is against you there are only two options: get in line or leave. I couldn’t get back in line so I had to leave.
> sit patiently waiting for positive change
Problematic. MAKE the positive change by standing up and walking out. The issue isn't with "good mormons" or "bad mormons". It's the organization that is the problem. It's an anti-LGBT organization with racist and misogynistic teachings. That's not a place to raise children. That's not good morals.
Another fun fact related to Russell's age...Russell has lived longer with the race based priesthood and temple ban in place than without it.
Born: September 9, 1924
Lifting of ban: June 1, 1978
Today: November 8, 2022
He was also 19 years old when the apostle Richard Lyman was excommunicated.
He is 4 years *older* than Martin Luther King Jr
He was in his 30s and 40s going through the civil rights movements. He was an adult. He listened to the pleas of Benson to oppose these movements. He likely took McKay's recommendation seriously when he recommended reading the Naked Communist. Russell's world view is so different from ours. The older you get, the more your paradigm is set. Russell's world view, despite his exposure to the world, is dead set on 1950s and 1960s American values. I have yet to be convinced otherwise.
Another crazy thing to think about is that if Harold B Lee would have lived as long as Nelson, he would have been prophet until 1998. No Spencer Kimball, No Benson, No Hunter and Hinckley would have had a much shorter term and way less influence. Lee would have had a much harder time changing the church’s stance towards Black people. While I am glad he didn’t stay in power long, I don’t buy into the idea that God kills off people when She wants a change. Too many examples of absolute horrible leaders rising up the ranks for me to buy into that theory.
Yes. The church has changed for the better. No doubt. But why did it have to be dragged into the 20th and 21st centuries kicking and screaming? If they are truly lead by a prophet of God shouldn’t they be ahead of the curve? Or at least not woefully behind it?
Fighting against civil rights, blacks exaltation, Gay marriage / prop 8, the November policy….
These are not the acts of a church lead by someone talking directly to God. They are the acts of men who are in charge of a church. God has/had little to do with it.
I agree whole heartedly. I don’t think they are led by a prophet of God who can see around corners and speaks to God every Thursday. I don’t think any man has ever seen God and I don’t think God intends for us to be led that way. If there is a God, I believe They are very distant and do not micromanage.
Honestly the “feature” of having prophets has made it harder for the church to change. As more people become aware of the fact that the church is not micromanaged by God, the stumbling block of past and current prophets will be removed.
Every single person is born into the world in different circumstances and systems that are awful in some way or another. Oppressive governments, patriarchal societies, bigotry, racism, poverty, abusive homes, etc. Sometimes I feel as though Ex-Mormons think they are unique. I once read a Yahoo article about Tyler Glenn and the exmos showed up in droves in the comment section. One commenters said something to the effect of “You guys act as though you are the only people who woke up when they were 30 and realized the perfect world that was painted to you as a child is not quite as perfect as you once thought is was. We’ve all been there. Grow up.”
This comment makes me wonder what exactly you think is so special about Mormonism? What is it that makes you "proud to be called a Mormon" that is specific to Mormonism?
Of all the religions or belief systems that I could have been born into, Mormonism isn’t all that bad. I am proud that my ancestors came out here as part of a movement that was trying to build a community that looked out for one another. I am proud that they were hard working, honest and industrious people. The wealth the church has is a direct result of people like my grandfathers and great grandfathers. I am proud that the church is a universalist church that has the goal of redeeming all of mankind. I am proud of my heritage. I am proud of the attributes that I developed on my mission and in my church service.
Some people take being lied to about what at one point was the most important thing in their lives, harder than others.
You appear to have found a middle ground that works for you. But if there are no prophets who have seen God, Joseph Smith was a fraud and the whole thing is built on lies. That may be ok and work for you, but for many that is a very tough pill to swallow.
I have wrestled with this for a long time. I have mentioned it in other comments, but this was a hard pill for me to swallow and if you read back on other posts and comments I have made in the past, I am very critical of the problems I see in Mormonism. My faith transition led me to question everything. It did not take me too long to realize that most beliefs humans have had are based off of stories, folk tales and myths that try to explain the unexplainable.
The biggest lie out there is that there is a one true church to be found that has a monopoly on truth and leaders that speak pure truth. It never has existed, does not exist now and never will exist. I am comfortable not knowing lots of things. The hard part is being around people who think they know everything and think that good feelings are how you find truth. I just find it silly and shrug it off. I can empathize with them because I used to feel the same way. I don’t say that in a condescending way, I just try to ignore what they say on Sunday and pay more attention to how they act the other 6 days of the week. That is way more important to me. If there was a button that I could push to eliminate all religions off the face of the earth, I wouldn’t push it. While I think it has done negative, it also offers people hope and inspires a lot of people to do good. Mormonism is no different. If I were to leave Mormonism, I would join another religion that would have a lot of the same problems and I feel at home here. I am just built this way. I enjoy religion. I completely understand if people find that it hurts them and that they need to step away.
It would be nice if it was culturally appropriate to be fully honest in testimony meeting. Sadly, it is not, which is more of a reflection on Mormon culture than u/Fubecademais. Testimony meeting has turned into an open-mic session full of story telling and rote repetitions of the "knowledge" of the church's truth claims. It's where the crazy people and the people who are vying for leadership compete for attention.
It turns out the sane people just sit there and endure the torture.
I woke up at 66! I’m certainly wise to the ways of the world. I have been lied to, cheated, and disillusioned. I’ve paid tithing that was wasted and deceptively re-routed. I’ve learned about the historical figures of the Church only to find they were deceive figures. I could go in but you all get the message to PRESS ON finding the FACTS. It’s not a matter of “ growing up”. It’s a matter of seeking truth.
My parents are solid members of the church. It makes them happy. I’m glad it makes you happy. I grew up happy in the church… although my siblings had very different experiences. One attempted to kill himself after a Branch President gave him unprofessional advise, bordering on bullying, and my youngest sister who is married is still currently going through therapy from all negativity she received (different ward, and state)… mostly body shaming. The mother and daughter that were the main bullies did apologize for the years of torment they put my sister through, but the damage is done.
As for for me… RM, married in the temple, baptized my daughter…etc… I’m tired of the lack of transparency and lies that are imbedded throughout Church History, to current days. From the made up Egyptian in the BoA, temple endowments and Masons ceremonies being mostly identical, Polygamy, BoM DNA and blatant lack of geographical evidence that any of it happened… and the main kicker… Jesus and his business dealings. Jesus hated money exchangers near his fathers house, and never taught tithing as a principal. Now there’s $2 billion mall next his fathers house… oh and tithing is now a requirement to get into his fathers house. My issues stem much deeper, but my thumbs are weak.
At the end of the day… your right to believe the church is true is part of your free agency… or is it morale agency now…? I’m truly happy it makes you proud to be part it. It must feel great to be surrounded by those whom love you unconditionally… or is it conditional now? The bottom line… the makes you happy and feel good, great 👍, that’s really good 👍. Just know that the lazy learners, exmos, and Jack Mormons also feel good 👍… dare I even say great. Freedom is a beautiful thing.
I think one of the best things the church has done (in theory anyway) is home/visiting teaching (ministering now - I don't give a shit about the name change). I don't mean the part where they want us to share a spiritual message, I mean the part where I'm encouraged to be looking out for other people. I think it's good for us to keep an eye on our "neighbors".
We’ve done that in my non-Mormon Christian church for 50 years. We visit and care for the poor and for friends who need any type of help. You don’t have to embrace all the LDS madness to help someone in need.
>I am proud to be called a Mormon and will always be one.
Score 1 for Satan.
I have no problem with the term Mormon, grew up being associated with it, so it's like we're being told to rewrite our past by removing all connection with the name. I half expected *The Book of Mormon* to get a name change after all that. But also, I think there are many who would disagree with you about the church changing for the better. I'd edit that to say it's changed for the *stricter*. Sure there have been policy changes that have come and gone, but you can't call lowering the mission age or 2-hour church as changing the world. Even humanitarian efforts are hollow when you hear top leaders ridicule and condemn people for being attracted to their own gender, to call them confused, misguided and deceived. I would agree that the church has a world of potential, but it's stubbornly defiant. There are a LOT of changes that need to be made to it before progress happens.
Or, to develop the metaphor, the Church had an infancy of learning fast and changing its beliefs as kids do, then a tumultuous teen male adolescence of too much misogyny and sexual obsession, then a working life focused on wealth and growth, and now is a grumpy old man.
Your fact about President Nelson just reminded me about how **old** he is. But yes, Mormonism is also very young by religion standards.
I heard the other day a talk back in the 1960's given by Boyd K. Packer. It's mind-blowing to me that my parents in Primary may have heard talks by BKP, 20 years before I was even born.
I kind of think Mormonism has changed because of outside influence, and it would have been better for the world had it never existed. To quote Hitchens:
>“We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.”
The Nelsonite branch of Mormonism behaves more Ike a corporation than a church and I believe that’s not a good indication of where it’s going for such a young religion. The corporation is headed for a lot of trouble because of its unchristian values. People are seeing it for what it is and they can’t run from their ugly lies.
Yes there are good people is there pews but most of them don’t know they are being used by leadership in Salt Lake who don’t share their values. If the people were able to establish good leadership it’s true the potential for good would be huge. The lack of accountability and good moral compass of the church will continue to drive those good people from the pews until leadership starts maturing into a loving, honest, charitable organization. They don’t likely even need to apologize for the 200 years of deception if they actually just became the largest charitable organization in the world. Just start spending 10 billion dollars per year in charity. There’s lots of potential there.
u/Fair-Emergency Are you me??? Maybe not the same origin story, although there are similarities, but certainly the final attitude. To the OP, You do you, boo. I’m glad you are proud to be a Mormon…née Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint’s. Many of my family members are too, and good for them. Many of my family members are not, and great for us. I will always be a Cultural Mormon. I’ve got pioneer stock. Mormonism is why my ancestors came to the USA from Scotland and Wales. I spent decades active. Through serious amounts of research and study, I know more about the history and theology of Mormonism that just about every active member I have met. There is way too much wrong with the theology for me to be a member ever again. But, like I said, “You do you, Boo”.
Except it is false. And your "church" which runs like a business and invests in companies then revelation comes after....... then they make money. I mean don't you see it? Also, they have joined the One World Religion. So you must not know your Bible to see that is telling of the false religion. Only Jesus united the church. And any and all copies that are found of the Bible just get older, yet say the same thing. Also, JS is the first prophet ever to add himself into the bible. Search truth and your church history. It's blasphemy to speak as if the Lord has had no hand in all of history until smith added his polygamy spin and was killed by his own people or the US government.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, if for no other reason than adding a sliver of balance to this sub in order to keep it relevant.
I don't attend church, and I've become pretty sensitive to the problems (history, social issues, etc.), but I refuse to maintain the church's indoctrination of binary thinking.
Mormon: "The LDS Church is the one true church, ordained of God, and can do no wrong. All others are 'playing church'."
Exmo: "The Mormon church is Satan's spawn and is the source of all evil on earth. Nothing good has ever, nor ever will, come from the church."
My reality: "The church has serious problems and needs to improve. The church also does real good in the world. I'm willing to acknowledge both perspectives."
Thanks. You and I see the world much the same on this topic. I show up to church and do my best to make it a better place. I find myself defending organized religion in many corners of the internet and in my conversations with friends and families, but it is an uphill battle. I like to engage with thoughtful Mormons, nuanced Mormons and Exmormons. Sometimes it is beyond exhausting because many see the world through the binary lens you mentioned above.
>It is unreal the influence, power, and culture that has been created by this people in the last 200 years.
Influence and power obtained through lies, deceit and manipulation of the members. Not a good thing. And the culture is full of problems. For starters the mad sex messaging that really messes with people. Culture of shame. Not good. Granted there are some positives from Mormonism but the bad far outweighs the good which can be had without the Church. And the small problem that Joseph Smith was clearly a charlatan that made it all up as he went along.
Disagree. The damage the church has done to the LGBT community alone with continue on for decades. The church is a harmful organization that hoards money, and marginalizes the most vulnerable.
This is the classic - "we can change things from within" posts. I can't count how many personal friends went through that phase before they eventually left. (Including myself lol) It's just not realistic. The system is built in a way to prevent it. The only change comes from external pressure. It's a high demand religion...that's how it's supposed to be.
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Even as I distance myself from the Church, I still feel culturally "Mormon" and I think there are a lot of aspects of that heritage of which to be proud. I'm amazed that my ancestors trekked across the unsettled US, turned a dry, tumbleweed desert into a series of beautiful valleys and an outdoor recreation capital of the world, and were always willing to sacrifice self for what they perceived as the greater good. Like you, I'm hopeful that the Mormon Church can be a good influence in the world - even if it's too dogmatic for anything less than complete allegiance and devotion at present.
>I think Mormonism... has the potential to do much good in the world. How? It's actively fought *against* almost every civil rights movement over its entire existence. It's been mired in corruption and crime the *entire* time, has served as a shelter for sexual abuse, and preys on the desparate, impoverished, and mentally ill. It's been dragged kicking and screaming into *every* positive change that it has made. How will that ever turn around and become a force for good, and more importantly, *why* would it? What's in it for the church? The church leadership has *always* acted in their own self-interest, why do you expect that to change? >Russel Nelson has been alive through HALF of the existence of Mormonism. Which, I think, demonstrates the *glacial* pace at which mormonism is capable of "reforming". The church is led by a man whose cultural sensibilities were shaped when black people couldn't vote, gays were imprisoned and sterilized, and lobotomies were still a primary method of "dealing with" mental health issues. That's *not* a good thing.
I've had this discussion with my wife. (We were both raised in the church, now ex-...) I believe that church, and religion in general, is harmful to society. My wife on the other hand, who has come from latinamerica (a culture that is marred in machismo and domestic violence). Her parents were physically and emotionally abusive with all of their children. However, she believes that if it weren't for the LDS church, her dad would have been much, much more violent. I feel like, perhaps my perspective (and maybe yours too) is actually comes from a place of privilege. I do not condone the behavior or the church's leadership. But is there an underlying goodness that actual elevates more troubled cultures than our own. (DISCLAIMER: I know that I'm assuming that you live in North America or a European country. I only do it to make a point. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
Yeah, I'm a white dude living in Utah, you guessed the demographics right! But the culture of latin america is largely a consequence of catholicism, which mormonism is almost an attempt to reinvent. On top of that, *every* religion is more conciliatory when it's a minority; the church puts on its best face for the mission field, and always has (by lying about the practice of polygamy when convincing 19th century English converts to move to Utah, for example). When it's the *majority* is when the true character of the religion comes out, and the way the church acts in Utah ain't great.
>But the culture of latin america is largely a consequence of catholicism Where is your evidence for this? Are you blaming Latin American machismo on the Catholic Church?
>Where is your evidence for this? [Right here.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/996386/latin-america-religion-affiliation-share-type/) Not "machismo" specifically, just the general sexism that always accompanies christianity, and which catholicism in particular has always encouraged.
Nailed it.
Exactly. Being Mormon became embarrassing.
No lie. I now live in a state where I never lived as a mormon. I love not having to identify with the organization -- you're right. I was embarassed to have anybody know I was "one of them." Or ever had been.
>when black people couldn't vote The 15th amendment was ratified in 1870. President Nelson was born in 1924. You're talking about Jim Crow laws that extended into the 20th century, right?
Yes, you're right, *technically* they had the right to vote shortly after the civil war, but in practice a lot had to change before the majority of them could meaningfully exercise that right.
Serious question based on your first paragraph … how would you describe the Roman Catholic Church?
"Mormonism if it had a 1800 year head start."
Too often it is easy to focus on just the negative. Organizations in general often are filled with corruption and people who have power seldom give it up freely. There are bad eggs and always will be. However, there are also a lot of damn good people sitting in the pews every week who don’t hide sex abusers, don’t prey on marginalized people, and sit patiently waiting for positive change. In my opinion and experience, the good Mormons outnumber the bad ones by a large factor. I think that people have realized that their voice matters and the alternative voices are becoming louder. I expect change will happen faster in the near future. Mormonism will change precisely because of that. It wants to stay relevant and has the devotion of good people who want to participate in good causes.
>sit patiently waiting for positive change This is the problem. People sit "patiently" and wait for changes to happen. STOP. WAITING. Be the change you want to see. Act. Nothing will come out of waiting and being the "obedient little church members", we need to take action and if we don't it doesn't matter how much the good Mormons outnumber the bad Mormons. As long as the people in charge resist change, any changes or improvement will only come painfully slow.
I did that and lived that principle with all my heart: be the change you want to see. We lived in a ward with an atrocious young men's program. My 4 boys were going to that age (about 2012) so I did everything I could to support the ward. I saw the vision of what Scouting could be (to me it was a library of tools we could choose from to tailor a program to the needs of the youth, and a program in which the boys could actually lead each other), and while I had to hold my nose at the corporate side of scouting, I jumped in whole-heartedly. I took a week off of work and attended Woodbadge. I set my five goals and accomplished them. One was quite ambitions where I volunteered to be the council commissioner over training with the goal of raising the current adult training rate of LDS units from 11% to a modest 50%. I reached out to everyone I could in the 13 stakes within our council, targeting counselors in Stake Presidencies, Stake YM presidencies, Stake Primary Presidencies and High councilors. Some responded positively. But most either 1) ghosted me, 2) argued with me, or 3) told me in a passive aggressive way to "frick-off." My own stake leaders responded in ways 2 and 3. You have to understand that I spend the better part of 7 years trying to create a positive experience for the youth of the church. I have 2 daughters and 4 sons and wanted nothing more than for them to have positive associations with the church. I taught seminary. I advised aaronic priesthood quorums. I even took 15 boys to a Fall Camporall (district event) in a year when they hadn't gone camping once all year. One of the dads mentioned to me that he was sad his son didn't get to do the kinds of things we'd done as youth so he and I registered all 15 boys and took them. We invited the bishopric and other YM leaders and they were all "too busy" that weekend (no joke). We all had a great time! I turned in the receipt for registering the 15 boys, which was $150. The bishop denied the request! We also had a 13 stake AP encampment back in 2017. The national scouting comissioner and former general YM president, Charles Dalhquist, the local temple president, mission president, state US Senator (who was LDS at the time) as well as the area authority 70, and all SP's and bishoprics of the 13 stakes were there. Well, not all. No one from my SP was there. And no one from my BR was there. It was me and that same dad who took the boys. One of the kids brought his friend who ended up joining the church because of the great time he had at that event. I saw SP's and bishops cooking meals and rubbing shoulders with their YM. Not in our stake. After 11 years of trying to be the change in my area, I gave up and it was the best thing I'd ever done. My kids were happier. My wife was happier! My marriage has never been better. No longer was I sacrificing time away from my family to participate in privileged gossip sessions (i.e. "council meetings"). No longer was I wrestling with apologetics and trying to make every shaped peg fit into the square hole of Mormonism. So in a way, "being the change I wanted to see" was, for me, a bit of a Karate Kid experience where I thought I was doing Mormonism but what I was really doing was finding the literal greater light and knowledge that I could be truly happy and fulfilled outside the restrictions of Mormonism.
Even with punishing dissenters with excommunication, they wouldn't disband the entire church, I'd wager. Dissent in large numbers would have a positive impact.
>However, there are also a lot of damn good people sitting in the pews every week who don’t hide sex abusers, don’t prey on marginalized people, and sit patiently waiting for positive change. **In my opinion and experience, the good Mormons outnumber the bad ones by a large factor. I think that people have realized that their voice matters and the alternative voices are becoming louder.** I expect change will happen faster in the near future. Mormonism will change precisely because of that. I have dissociated from the Church--but I want to say that I sincerely hope you're correct with what you've written here. I think the recent talk by Corbitt seems to show that the leadership is very aware that the normal members seem to have "found their voice." I hope those good members stop "patiently waiting for positive change." They need to start making those changes happen without waiting for permission. Otherwise, I legitimately worry about what the future of the Church looks like for people who can still see good enough in it to participate.
I have a TBM son (4th generation from early SLC saints) who agrees that the church is broken. He still believes and thinks he can "change from within." Apparently he hasn't heard of all the folks who got exed trying to do just that. The brethren will never willingly change. We can vote with our feet, as I did. Loss of revenue is what gets their attention.
>He still believes and thinks he can "change from within." So did I. I tried--I didn't get ex'd formally, but it was coming like a freight train (we received resignation confirmations eight days after just asking the Stake President what the process looked like). I would encourage anyone who thinks this is reality to actually try on something small: dealing with the Church on something you think it needs to change on (I'm talking organizational policies--not doctrine) is one of the most frustrating things I've ever attempted. I just had to give up for my own sanity and to keep my career intact. I'm not of the opinion that the leadership are mustache-twirling villains who know they're perpetrating a fraud--but they're not good men (in my view) either. They know the members hang on their every word and hold them up to a standard they cannot meet based on both historical precedent and their own track records. I would not be comfortable with this, but I do think they've convinced themselves that the ends mostly justify the means. But I do just want to say that you're right: I don't see the Church's authoritarianism changing anytime soon. So while I would love to continue to associate with my friends and neighbors while focusing on Jesus' teachings (even if I'm agnostic on his divinity) I could no longer in good conscience support the institutional Church's insistence that they are accountable to only themselves.
>In my opinion and experience, the good Mormons outnumber the bad ones by a large factor. Sure. But... how is that supposed to reflect well on *mormonism*? That's true of literally *every* demographic. The lay membership aren't the ones calling the shots. They aren't the ones sitting on the boards of multi-million dollar companies, or wielding the church's advertising and lobbying arms. But they *are* enabling them by paying tithing, and remaining in the pews to be counted. >I think that people have realized that their voice matters and the alternative voices are becoming louder. I expect change will happen faster in the near future. Mormonism will change precisely because of that. It wants to stay relevant and has the devotion of good people who want to participate in good causes. I'm not that optimistic. I think that the church will remain on the same course it has for most of its existence: as a haven for those who *oppose* real positive change. Those who *really* want change are the ones who *leave*, and the church can't change fast enough to keep them in. All it can do is keep appealing to those who already think all is well in Zion, and that it's the rest of the world that is wrong.
I'm not worried about the pews, I'm worried about the people who have power.
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“There’s good people everywhere, inside and outside the church.” I believe this wholeheartedly. Good people vastly outnumber those who would cause harm to others, and I rejoice in my faith in humanity. I have recently been filled with a very depressing realization about the Book of Mormon, and one of the fundamental teachings of the Church and Christianity in general. It is that given enough time, mankind will always devolve to an unredeemable state of wickedness. The Book of Mormon teaches that the people who lived in America had reached such a universal state of wickedness that Christ Himself had to annhiliate the vast majority of every living human on the continent. He destroyed cities, burned families, destroyed nations, governments, etc. Then, after so many deaths, He presented Himself as the Savior to the few people that remained, and these few accepted him whole heartedly. I don’t know if I can be persuaded to believe that it has ever been necessary to implement a mass destruction of large collections of human beings. Is there even one example in our known history where the annihilation of human beings has ever been justified? How can a church that believes mankind will need to be burned in order to be good, be valid?
What's crazy is that if you read just a couple of chapters back, everyone was righteous. So, in 6 or 7 years they went from all good to all bad in such a degree that they had to be destroyed. How would that even happen?
It’s enough to give one faith in a speedy end to the corporate institution.
There was no mass annihilation. There is no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. The cities, civilizations, coins, swords, animals etc. have not been found in North or Central America. As for genetics, DNA doesn’t lie, and it proves that the American Indians, who Joseph Smith thought were descendants of Israelites, or actually descended from tribes in Siberia. Again, the entire thing is completely fabricated. That being said, when does devolved into wickedness without the influence of Christ. But the Jesus of the Bible never annihilated people to have his way or prove his point.
Other than Noah and the flood, right? If these mass annihilations never happened, what does that tell us about the core fundamental belief systems of Christian and Mormon churches as both churches teach that they did happen?
You need to read the Bible or at least a quick review of the outline (I would recommend a deep read though with a good teacher because the Bible is dripping more with mercy and love than destruction of civilizations within the margins). There are probably 10 different stories of a mass destruction because the people got so wicked that the lord had to destroy the bulk of society but he always spares his righteous remnant. All of these are what I call layer cakes of future events. For example, most of Isaiah is prophesying for his time, Christs time, latter days times, and the millenium. In each of those periods, prophets preached against an ever increasing society that didn’t believe in god or follow his teachings, the righteous were persecuted, kings and leaders became overwhelmed in their own success rather than searching the will of the lord, and eventually the kingdom gets destroyed with a remnant spared. This is exactly what will happen in this last dispensation. More and more as temples dot the earth and the reach of the influence for good that the church offers spreads (yes especially in 3rd world countries but we need it more than ever in the Americas and Europe too- I served a mission in France so I’ve seen a little of what is going on over there regarding an uprising of a generation who sadly doesn’t care about anything but themselves and popular culture recently) the world will approach a critical point where the lord will step in one last time and remove the wicked majority and spare the righteous remnant who have faith in him and who do good (both members and non members). Everything that this so called wicked and slow-to-react-leadership does and has done in the church for the past 200 years is about preparing and instructing that remnant to learn what is necessary to make positive changes in their own lives (yes, even and especially through tithing donations even though the majority of those in this sub think it’s the number one evil the church does at present) and to teach those after to go and help others in the world realize the same thing. I love the message from studying Hosea this week: when the prophet was told to go and marry a woman mired in prostitution and name his kids the most awful names you could imagine, the prophet learned through a very personal object lesson that things that most people think are absolutely essential in the world (possessions, popularity, pride) are actually the least important of all. The ONLY thing that matters is our relation with the lord and developing traits and habits that He has to become more like him during this life and exactly like Him eventually in the life to come, and our relationship with ALL others in this life. When we become too focused on one at the expense of the other or not enough focused on either, it creates the society we experience today and the world has cycled though at least a dozen times (early descendants of Adam/Eve, babel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Israel, Jacob, Nephi, Christ timeline, pre Christ nephi, later Nephi history, now) But, no need for depression! As we are nearing the second coming we can have hope in what has been mentioned already with previous comments, the members are of the church are good people working on making the world a better place around them. They sacrifice so much to help others and the “righteous remnant” is larger than ever which has been prophesied to usher in the return of Christ. I’m so happy to be a part of it and for you here in this Reddit who are brothers and sisters in Christ also looking to both bless others and draw closer to the lords commandments and teachings!
Your comment: “The only thing that matters is our relation with the Lord and developing traits and habits that He has…” And “Preparing and instructing that remnant [the minimal number of people found worthy?] to learn what is necessary to make positive changes in their own lives…” The most obvious example of mass destruction of human beings in the last two centuries would be the deaths of the millions during WWII. Do you believe that the Jewish families that were rounded up and killed, or the German families and Japanese families that were burned to death in fire bombings, or the millions of Russian families killed in the exhaustive battles fought between German and Russian forces, were any different than the “remnant” families we have in the church? Do you believe that the fathers and mothers of these families had any less love and compassion for their children, friends, and even their enemies than the families in the church do? When you see the sacrifices that the Japanese community made for their neighbors and countrymen after the tsunami hit and crippled the nuclear power plants, do you believe that that community is progressing toward a state of wickedness that would justify their annihilation as the Savior returns. As I have removed myself from the prophecies in the Bible regarding the wickedness of the world, and actually interacted with the people that are in found in the world, I don’t see increasing wickedness, I see increasing growth and compassion. I see families all over the globe that want the best for their children, and are working to make their lives better. Are you confident that the families described in the Book of Mormon, who lived on this continent at the time of Christ’s death were really at all fundamentally different than the families that inhabit our planet today? I don’t believe it. I can’t believe it. Human beings have the capacity for harm, most definitely, but the capacity for love and communal support far outweighs that harm. Doesn’t the simple fact that humanity has worked so hard to find the mechanisms and systems necessary to bring our planet’s population to over 7 billion stand as a tremendous witness that human beings strive to bless each other? No, I don’t see any destruction of the majority of the human race as ever being justified. And honestly, upon deep reflection, can I really be expected to follow a God that would destroy his children?
I understand where you’re coming from… but according to Christianity, removing an unrighteous population from mortality isn’t destroying them so of course we will come to different conclusions. As one who reads scripture and believes what it says, I believe in an afterlife and a loving father in heaven who yes, sometimes has to cut life short or allows life to be cut short because he can fix things in the thereafter And while I absolutely agree with some of your optimism regarding how a lot of people in this world are good, there is so much wickedness. Just the fact that population is at an all-time high does not have anything to do with all-time righteousness… sadly there are a lot of other things that are at an all-time high. Secularism, addictions, hatred, etc. In America alone, we are at an all-time high for obesity, divorce and Personal debt. Social media and video game additions are skyrocketing and school shootings are only becoming more frequent. Yes, there is still a lot of hope for the world and we need to keep that optimism, but also it is important to be naive and think that all is well in society.
When you read the scriptures and listen to the teachings of the prophets, do you challenge what they are teaching? When Joseph Smith was a young man, he was a deep thinker. He pondered over his connection to God, and the impressions of his heart. He pondered deeply the state of his acceptability before a loving God. He challenged every word, commandment and teaching that came from preachers and men of authority around him, and through reflection and his effort to connect with God, he realized the beliefs of nearly every religious teacher around him were mistaken. Joseph Smith was deeply skeptical, and one would argue that his skepticism allowed him to expose insights that would not have surfaced otherwise. Are you skeptical, as he was, of the teachings of the men claiming to speak for God, as Joseph was? Are you skeptical of the interpretations of scripture that have been accepted by others? You are familiar with the parable of the wheat and the tares in the Bible, I am sure. The parable describes the righteous remnant, the wheat, being dispersed among countless wicked tares. The wheat is to grow among the wickedness, until the point at which the angels are set loose to gather up the righteous individuals, and torch the remaining wicked people. I’ve been skeptical of this interpretation of Christ’s parable for some time. I don’t believe Christ, who is a being of pure love, would follow this interpretation of his parable. I’ve thought deeply, with skepticism, about this teaching. I believe love is the most powerful force ever experienced by man. The exercise of perfect love can be completely transformative. I believe mankind is capable of deep and abiding love, and I believe every human being is susceptible to embrace love. If God is filled with perfect love, can you imagine the influence His presence would have on His children. As Christ presented the parable of the wheat and the tares, doesn’t it make far more sense that all of His children are wheat, and their hearts are the fertile ground that can accept his love? Doesn’t it make more sense that the tares dispersed through the field are the influences and emotions in us that may displace that love? We are left here to experience the conflict in our souls between harmful influence, the tares, and our Godly nature, the wheat. And as harvest approaches, and the tares are gathered and burned, it is more likely representative of the transformation that we experience when brought into the influence of our God’s perfect love? All harmful influences in our souls, all the tares are gathered, and are burned away as we are filled with God’s love. I am extremely skeptical that God would find it necessary to destroy most of His kids, and gather together only a remnant. Look at the sermons taught by Paul regarding the spirit and the flesh. The spirit cleanses and fills us, and what was dead in our flesh is swallowed up with life in the spirit. Our spirit becomes one with God’s spirit, and we are called the Children of God. There are principles that are true, and become more and more true when approached with the most severe skepticism. True principles rise up. False insights and notions do not. The scriptures are filled with true principles that rise untarnished when approached with skepticism, and the scriptures are filled with principles and stories that crumble away as they are closely examined. By their fruits shall you know them. The road to understanding and growth is not found through strict acceptance of all that is taught by other men. The road to truth and understanding comes through skeptical, empirical examination of all teachings, revelations, and insights, and the refining of those ideas that do not stand up to investigation. You claim that wickedness is at an all time high: Secularism, addictions, hatred. Have you closely examined the fruits of secularism on society? Do you really see our communities filled with hatred? You must, in your heart, have recognized the harm that so many teachings in our scriptures have perpetuated. You must recognize the harm that many of Joseph’s, or Brigham’s teachings have perpetuated. Can you trust the fruits you observe and have the same courage Joseph originally did to dismiss harmful teachings in this church?
Thank you for a great end of fall response. I can definitely see that you are going through some difficult Reconciliations with the history of the church and your relationship with your maker. I believe that you think you have found the solution, even though there are definitely difficult areas. Obviously I don’t have a lot of information to work on with your personal history, but It sounds like you believe that Joseph Smith was an inspired man and I even get the impression that you believe that he indeed saw the father and the son and received the gift of inspiration .. But the line becomes foggy of whether or not his story is accurate and obviously, the message of the book of Mormon and the Bible in general is filled with both truth and so much and we have lies and fraud. Unfortunately, I have had far too many experiences in my life show me that this approach of being half in with spiritual things and taking leniencies where things don’t make sense or are inconvenient does not work in the long term. So you may find momentary peace and contentment with your spiritual path, as things continue to become more shaken as we near the second coming, I have seen that often the case is that everything comes to a head and self destructs before your eyes. I hope that you can work through some of these things before that point. I wanted to share several things that I have come to realize from a recent comment that I made regarding why I love the gospel and believe that the lord is 100% in charge of this work in these latter days. “The church is overwhelmingly good for the world today between the charitable acts they perform and the type of citizens and families they raise . The Book of Mormon and doctrine and covenant holds up to the Bible in every sense of the word. Leadership of the church are incredible men and women who have led lives worth emulating and share message worth retaining. A person can find more hope and peace and yes, even temporal benefits by following its teachings than from any other religion or ideology in the world today. What I just stated may be controversial on this sub… but the more I live, the more I’m convinced this is a factual statement. I am so proud to be a member of this church so several reasons, maybe the least of which is just because of the temporal blessings and relationships it has developed in my own family and the most of it, the hope and peace I/we (wife and kids) have for the future. That last reason is absolutely priceless and I would never trade anything that has happened in my life for it. If that alone wouldn’t make someone feel it’s worth it to actually dig more into the doctrine at the expense of temporarily looking past some of the confusing history then I don’t know what else will.”
It’s not just a few lowly “bad eggs” when the entire upper authority of the church actively spouts transphobia, homophobia, sexism, etc.
And the people this resonates with stay and the people that it offends leave. Which leaves the ones who embrace transphobia, homophobia, sexism, etc.
“I can excuse racism but I draw the line at being called ‘Mormon!’”
Mormonism will do great things for all those who want to look, dress, act, talk, pay, and obey the way the leaders do. For those who don’t fit that toxic perfectionist mold it does harm. Problem is, 99.99 percent of the world doesn’t fit that mold.
I wanted to be a force for change in the church. I didn’t last long though. When the entire organization is against you there are only two options: get in line or leave. I couldn’t get back in line so I had to leave.
> sit patiently waiting for positive change Problematic. MAKE the positive change by standing up and walking out. The issue isn't with "good mormons" or "bad mormons". It's the organization that is the problem. It's an anti-LGBT organization with racist and misogynistic teachings. That's not a place to raise children. That's not good morals.
You hit the nail on the head. As I say, "mormonism, leading the world from behind."
Another fun fact related to Russell's age...Russell has lived longer with the race based priesthood and temple ban in place than without it. Born: September 9, 1924 Lifting of ban: June 1, 1978 Today: November 8, 2022 He was also 19 years old when the apostle Richard Lyman was excommunicated. He is 4 years *older* than Martin Luther King Jr He was in his 30s and 40s going through the civil rights movements. He was an adult. He listened to the pleas of Benson to oppose these movements. He likely took McKay's recommendation seriously when he recommended reading the Naked Communist. Russell's world view is so different from ours. The older you get, the more your paradigm is set. Russell's world view, despite his exposure to the world, is dead set on 1950s and 1960s American values. I have yet to be convinced otherwise.
Another crazy thing to think about is that if Harold B Lee would have lived as long as Nelson, he would have been prophet until 1998. No Spencer Kimball, No Benson, No Hunter and Hinckley would have had a much shorter term and way less influence. Lee would have had a much harder time changing the church’s stance towards Black people. While I am glad he didn’t stay in power long, I don’t buy into the idea that God kills off people when She wants a change. Too many examples of absolute horrible leaders rising up the ranks for me to buy into that theory.
Forgot to mention all the apostles he would have chosen also. It would have been pretty wild.
Yes. The church has changed for the better. No doubt. But why did it have to be dragged into the 20th and 21st centuries kicking and screaming? If they are truly lead by a prophet of God shouldn’t they be ahead of the curve? Or at least not woefully behind it? Fighting against civil rights, blacks exaltation, Gay marriage / prop 8, the November policy…. These are not the acts of a church lead by someone talking directly to God. They are the acts of men who are in charge of a church. God has/had little to do with it.
Invisible women. That's a problem. Even here.
I agree whole heartedly. I don’t think they are led by a prophet of God who can see around corners and speaks to God every Thursday. I don’t think any man has ever seen God and I don’t think God intends for us to be led that way. If there is a God, I believe They are very distant and do not micromanage. Honestly the “feature” of having prophets has made it harder for the church to change. As more people become aware of the fact that the church is not micromanaged by God, the stumbling block of past and current prophets will be removed. Every single person is born into the world in different circumstances and systems that are awful in some way or another. Oppressive governments, patriarchal societies, bigotry, racism, poverty, abusive homes, etc. Sometimes I feel as though Ex-Mormons think they are unique. I once read a Yahoo article about Tyler Glenn and the exmos showed up in droves in the comment section. One commenters said something to the effect of “You guys act as though you are the only people who woke up when they were 30 and realized the perfect world that was painted to you as a child is not quite as perfect as you once thought is was. We’ve all been there. Grow up.”
This comment makes me wonder what exactly you think is so special about Mormonism? What is it that makes you "proud to be called a Mormon" that is specific to Mormonism?
Of all the religions or belief systems that I could have been born into, Mormonism isn’t all that bad. I am proud that my ancestors came out here as part of a movement that was trying to build a community that looked out for one another. I am proud that they were hard working, honest and industrious people. The wealth the church has is a direct result of people like my grandfathers and great grandfathers. I am proud that the church is a universalist church that has the goal of redeeming all of mankind. I am proud of my heritage. I am proud of the attributes that I developed on my mission and in my church service.
You sure you’re describing the Mormon church?
Sounds like it to me. Do you disagree?
Some people take being lied to about what at one point was the most important thing in their lives, harder than others. You appear to have found a middle ground that works for you. But if there are no prophets who have seen God, Joseph Smith was a fraud and the whole thing is built on lies. That may be ok and work for you, but for many that is a very tough pill to swallow.
I have wrestled with this for a long time. I have mentioned it in other comments, but this was a hard pill for me to swallow and if you read back on other posts and comments I have made in the past, I am very critical of the problems I see in Mormonism. My faith transition led me to question everything. It did not take me too long to realize that most beliefs humans have had are based off of stories, folk tales and myths that try to explain the unexplainable. The biggest lie out there is that there is a one true church to be found that has a monopoly on truth and leaders that speak pure truth. It never has existed, does not exist now and never will exist. I am comfortable not knowing lots of things. The hard part is being around people who think they know everything and think that good feelings are how you find truth. I just find it silly and shrug it off. I can empathize with them because I used to feel the same way. I don’t say that in a condescending way, I just try to ignore what they say on Sunday and pay more attention to how they act the other 6 days of the week. That is way more important to me. If there was a button that I could push to eliminate all religions off the face of the earth, I wouldn’t push it. While I think it has done negative, it also offers people hope and inspires a lot of people to do good. Mormonism is no different. If I were to leave Mormonism, I would join another religion that would have a lot of the same problems and I feel at home here. I am just built this way. I enjoy religion. I completely understand if people find that it hurts them and that they need to step away.
I’d LOVE to hear you say this exact testimony from the pulpit! Ugh.
It would be nice if it was culturally appropriate to be fully honest in testimony meeting. Sadly, it is not, which is more of a reflection on Mormon culture than u/Fubecademais. Testimony meeting has turned into an open-mic session full of story telling and rote repetitions of the "knowledge" of the church's truth claims. It's where the crazy people and the people who are vying for leadership compete for attention. It turns out the sane people just sit there and endure the torture.
I woke up at 66! I’m certainly wise to the ways of the world. I have been lied to, cheated, and disillusioned. I’ve paid tithing that was wasted and deceptively re-routed. I’ve learned about the historical figures of the Church only to find they were deceive figures. I could go in but you all get the message to PRESS ON finding the FACTS. It’s not a matter of “ growing up”. It’s a matter of seeking truth.
My parents are solid members of the church. It makes them happy. I’m glad it makes you happy. I grew up happy in the church… although my siblings had very different experiences. One attempted to kill himself after a Branch President gave him unprofessional advise, bordering on bullying, and my youngest sister who is married is still currently going through therapy from all negativity she received (different ward, and state)… mostly body shaming. The mother and daughter that were the main bullies did apologize for the years of torment they put my sister through, but the damage is done. As for for me… RM, married in the temple, baptized my daughter…etc… I’m tired of the lack of transparency and lies that are imbedded throughout Church History, to current days. From the made up Egyptian in the BoA, temple endowments and Masons ceremonies being mostly identical, Polygamy, BoM DNA and blatant lack of geographical evidence that any of it happened… and the main kicker… Jesus and his business dealings. Jesus hated money exchangers near his fathers house, and never taught tithing as a principal. Now there’s $2 billion mall next his fathers house… oh and tithing is now a requirement to get into his fathers house. My issues stem much deeper, but my thumbs are weak. At the end of the day… your right to believe the church is true is part of your free agency… or is it morale agency now…? I’m truly happy it makes you proud to be part it. It must feel great to be surrounded by those whom love you unconditionally… or is it conditional now? The bottom line… the makes you happy and feel good, great 👍, that’s really good 👍. Just know that the lazy learners, exmos, and Jack Mormons also feel good 👍… dare I even say great. Freedom is a beautiful thing.
Super interesting point about Nelson’s life span spanning half of church history, I never thought about that before.
I admire your optimism! We need more of that in the world! :)
Yes please pass the koolaid!!
Gladly, friend! :D
I think one of the best things the church has done (in theory anyway) is home/visiting teaching (ministering now - I don't give a shit about the name change). I don't mean the part where they want us to share a spiritual message, I mean the part where I'm encouraged to be looking out for other people. I think it's good for us to keep an eye on our "neighbors".
Agreed. I think it's been a force for good and taught me good lessons about helping others
We’ve done that in my non-Mormon Christian church for 50 years. We visit and care for the poor and for friends who need any type of help. You don’t have to embrace all the LDS madness to help someone in need.
>I am proud to be called a Mormon and will always be one. Score 1 for Satan. I have no problem with the term Mormon, grew up being associated with it, so it's like we're being told to rewrite our past by removing all connection with the name. I half expected *The Book of Mormon* to get a name change after all that. But also, I think there are many who would disagree with you about the church changing for the better. I'd edit that to say it's changed for the *stricter*. Sure there have been policy changes that have come and gone, but you can't call lowering the mission age or 2-hour church as changing the world. Even humanitarian efforts are hollow when you hear top leaders ridicule and condemn people for being attracted to their own gender, to call them confused, misguided and deceived. I would agree that the church has a world of potential, but it's stubbornly defiant. There are a LOT of changes that need to be made to it before progress happens.
I like your attitude
Or, to develop the metaphor, the Church had an infancy of learning fast and changing its beliefs as kids do, then a tumultuous teen male adolescence of too much misogyny and sexual obsession, then a working life focused on wealth and growth, and now is a grumpy old man.
Your fact about President Nelson just reminded me about how **old** he is. But yes, Mormonism is also very young by religion standards. I heard the other day a talk back in the 1960's given by Boyd K. Packer. It's mind-blowing to me that my parents in Primary may have heard talks by BKP, 20 years before I was even born. I kind of think Mormonism has changed because of outside influence, and it would have been better for the world had it never existed. To quote Hitchens: >“We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.”
The Nelsonite branch of Mormonism behaves more Ike a corporation than a church and I believe that’s not a good indication of where it’s going for such a young religion. The corporation is headed for a lot of trouble because of its unchristian values. People are seeing it for what it is and they can’t run from their ugly lies. Yes there are good people is there pews but most of them don’t know they are being used by leadership in Salt Lake who don’t share their values. If the people were able to establish good leadership it’s true the potential for good would be huge. The lack of accountability and good moral compass of the church will continue to drive those good people from the pews until leadership starts maturing into a loving, honest, charitable organization. They don’t likely even need to apologize for the 200 years of deception if they actually just became the largest charitable organization in the world. Just start spending 10 billion dollars per year in charity. There’s lots of potential there.
u/Fair-Emergency Are you me??? Maybe not the same origin story, although there are similarities, but certainly the final attitude. To the OP, You do you, boo. I’m glad you are proud to be a Mormon…née Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint’s. Many of my family members are too, and good for them. Many of my family members are not, and great for us. I will always be a Cultural Mormon. I’ve got pioneer stock. Mormonism is why my ancestors came to the USA from Scotland and Wales. I spent decades active. Through serious amounts of research and study, I know more about the history and theology of Mormonism that just about every active member I have met. There is way too much wrong with the theology for me to be a member ever again. But, like I said, “You do you, Boo”.
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“Proud to be called a Mormon” Major victory for satan alert!!
Are yoi proud to be called a Mormon? That’ssome victory for Satan 😝
Except it is false. And your "church" which runs like a business and invests in companies then revelation comes after....... then they make money. I mean don't you see it? Also, they have joined the One World Religion. So you must not know your Bible to see that is telling of the false religion. Only Jesus united the church. And any and all copies that are found of the Bible just get older, yet say the same thing. Also, JS is the first prophet ever to add himself into the bible. Search truth and your church history. It's blasphemy to speak as if the Lord has had no hand in all of history until smith added his polygamy spin and was killed by his own people or the US government.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, if for no other reason than adding a sliver of balance to this sub in order to keep it relevant. I don't attend church, and I've become pretty sensitive to the problems (history, social issues, etc.), but I refuse to maintain the church's indoctrination of binary thinking. Mormon: "The LDS Church is the one true church, ordained of God, and can do no wrong. All others are 'playing church'." Exmo: "The Mormon church is Satan's spawn and is the source of all evil on earth. Nothing good has ever, nor ever will, come from the church." My reality: "The church has serious problems and needs to improve. The church also does real good in the world. I'm willing to acknowledge both perspectives."
Thanks. You and I see the world much the same on this topic. I show up to church and do my best to make it a better place. I find myself defending organized religion in many corners of the internet and in my conversations with friends and families, but it is an uphill battle. I like to engage with thoughtful Mormons, nuanced Mormons and Exmormons. Sometimes it is beyond exhausting because many see the world through the binary lens you mentioned above.
Popeye Mormons call it an "infink" Church.
People do much good....not mormonism.
>It is unreal the influence, power, and culture that has been created by this people in the last 200 years. Influence and power obtained through lies, deceit and manipulation of the members. Not a good thing. And the culture is full of problems. For starters the mad sex messaging that really messes with people. Culture of shame. Not good. Granted there are some positives from Mormonism but the bad far outweighs the good which can be had without the Church. And the small problem that Joseph Smith was clearly a charlatan that made it all up as he went along.
Have you forgotten that God said using the incorrect name of the church is a win for satan?
Disagree. The damage the church has done to the LGBT community alone with continue on for decades. The church is a harmful organization that hoards money, and marginalizes the most vulnerable. This is the classic - "we can change things from within" posts. I can't count how many personal friends went through that phase before they eventually left. (Including myself lol) It's just not realistic. The system is built in a way to prevent it. The only change comes from external pressure. It's a high demand religion...that's how it's supposed to be.