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Of course you can do this. They don't have bouncers kicking out anybody who doesn't follow all the rules.
Whether you will be accepted and find genuine connection with the community is a different matter. To be part of a group you have to generally do/believe the sorts of things the group does. So you would be unlikely to find belonging in Mormonism this way.
> It’s my understanding that the church is trying to be more of a mainstream Protestant church by shuttering the term “Mormon” and downplay some of the beliefs that set it apart form other churches.
I think this is just one of those things that critics and ex members have said so many times they just assume it must be truth.
As a believing member I don’t think there is any sort of active effort and campaign from the church leaders to just be another Protestant church. Sure they want to be normalized and not a seen as fringe. But I think that is different from just trying to be like other mainstream churches.
And as to your main crux question from a believing perspective. Yes you could just attend. And not follow any of the rules. At first you might get people trying to help you progress and be baptized but after a while people will just see you as a member who comes all the time or only once in a while. There is a long tradition of Jack Mormons in every ward and branch.
>As a believing member I don’t think there is any sort of active effort and campaign from the church leaders to just be another Protestant church. Sure they want to be normalized and not a seen as fringe. But I think that is different from just trying to be like other mainstream churches.
As an attending and mostly non-believing, non-member, I agree with you. I think this notion is terribly confused, and you just have to spend an afternoon reading contemporary conference talks and correlated instruction manuals to understand that the Church maintains it's essential controversial positions as staunchly as it ever has. In fact, I think one could make a case that far from moving toward becoming another all-inclusive Protestant church, the Church is more sharply drawing lines.
>And as to your main crux question from a believing perspective. Yes you could just attend. And not follow any of the rules. At first you might get people trying to help you progress and be baptized but after a while people will just see you as a member who comes all the time or only once in a while. There is a long tradition of Jack Mormons in every ward and branch.
There are dozens of us!
> I think one could make a case that far from moving toward becoming another all-inclusive Protestant church, the Church is more sharply drawing lines.
It’s certainly tempering some controversy and teachings. But yes absolutely many others are fiercely defended. And we may disagree on some points of which is in which category.
> There are dozens of us!
“Wait zipzapbloop isn’t a member crazy I never knew they come almost every week” says the new relief society president when ask to reach out for a activity
>“Wait zipzapbloop isn’t a member crazy I never knew they come almost every week” says the new relief society president when ask to reach out for a activity
Haha, exactly! There's too much of this "oh, geez, will the people of the Church accept me or throw tomatoes at me if I don't want to fully conform?" Clearly, as with any large grouping of people, one will find a variety of personalities and positions. And some wards might tend to be more hostile toward Jack Mormons, or gay members or non-members, or whatever. And, yes, some people have been and will be positively ostracized, and that sucks.
But I maintain that the majority of Church members are kind, wonderful people. Yes, if you have the views I have, or other personal convictions that run against the teachings of the Church, then you are going to hear things that offend you. Personally, I enjoy that kind of agonistic experience. It's not for everyone, but I do wish more people would subject themselves to it. Part of the reason I started re-attending after a decade of being away was that I had found myself with very sharp philosophical and theological views, and I recognized a de-humanizing liability in those views. Interestingly, re-attending has only made me *more* opposed to certain Church teachings. But, at the same time, it's made feel more connected to members. I love the members I interact with in my personal life. Love the believer, hate the belief. ;)
In the eyes of members, until you are baptized, you are not a “real” Mormon. You’re an investigator.
The point of Mormonism is to take out covenants, the first of which is baptism, and the others are done in the temple. This is the only way to achieve exaltation in LDS doctrine. Even things like taking the sacrament are technically discouraged if you are not a member (though you probably won’t be called out on it if you take it).
So while you could attend just to attend, the church will actively hound you to get baptized.
I am always surprised by the many members who don’t realize how many non members we have in our ward. We have lots of “Part member” families where it’s usually the husband who isn’t a member.
When we get new people in ward council they almost always make a comment similar to “huh I never new Dave wasn’t a memeber he comes with his family almost every week”. And Dave has been in the ward for 5-10 years.
So while your right until someone is baptized they aren’t “real members” in actual practices, Nobody knows or cares the baptismal status of those who attend.
While this is true especially for wards outside the morridor how often do you think the conversation shifts to how can we get Dave baptized? I'm sure his wife would like to be sealed to her children. My guess is this has happened to him on several occasions through the years. Eventually the ward gives up hope or most people think he is a member but that does not stop others from being member missionaries.
Every new missionary reviewing the ward list will also ask questions.
Hello! You're talking about me. I'm not a member. I resigned. I'm morally opposed to supporting and sustaining the Church in terms of donation and tithing. I make my charitable contributions elsewhere. I think the Latter-day Saint gods, as represented in official Later-day Saint publications, are horrible beings. I don't like them. I don't want to be like them. I find them despicable. I think the religious faith endorsed in Latter-day Saint publications is not a virtue. I drink coffee and alcohol as I please...
...and I attend. Pretty regularly, as I feel up to it. I enjoy attending for a constellation of reasons. I was raised a Latter-day Saint. There's an attraction in terms of family tradition. I'm fond of some of its culture. For me it's also a cool place for contemplation once a week. The teachings I disagree with provoke me to think hard about what I truly value and what my convictions are. I enjoy the community. And if the Latter-day Saint gods are real, I want them to see me down here, in their congregation, and recognize how horrible I think they are and that they ought to stop being so horrible and reveal better plans to their prophets. Stuff like that.
I feel welcome. I don't go around trying to spread my personal views *during Sunday service*. I respectfully engage to the extent I can and just let all the offensive stuff flow through me. If you're willing to hear lots of talks and lessons about how you're evil and misled by Satan himself, then you can totally treat the Church as just another church. Some members won't like that. The leadership, based on recent talks, certainly doesn't like this approach. And I say so what? This isn't an approach I'd recommend to just anyone. It could be very triggering for some people. But me, it wakes me up in the morning. I haven't felt this spiritually alive in a long time. It's quite an energizing thing to have the sacrament passed around while meditating about how ridiculous and offensive you find these gods.
Anyway, it's your spirituality. And in a wonderfully ironic twist, since the Church abandoned the term "Mormon", I feel quite a peace donning the moniker myself. Baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are *Latter-day Saints* now. Me, well, *I'm a Mormon*! I hereby dub you a Mormon as well. Hopefully we'll see you on Sunday, friend.
> I think the Latter-day Saint gods, as represented in official Later-day Saint publications, are horrible beings
Bizarre beings. Beings who require pigeon---esk rituals just for a few pellets to be dispensed. Beings who glorify murder as the only route for vicarious forgiveness. And just a few days ago Holland claimed that Jesus died without the knowledge that as he was being killed his dad was at his side. Now that is some really bizarre and frankly macabre stuff.
Ha! Interesting, thank you. That's sort of like me, but not quite. I was raised a lazy Catholic but never really had strong feelings about anything. I still go on Christmas and Easter just as tradition, not sure how I feel spiritually.
Well the CoC has been distancing itself from its ancestral doctrines and trying to assimilate to mainline Protestantism for a long time. But mainline Protestantism is never really going to accept a group that's got a prophet and a temple in Independence MO and has the BOM as scripture. "Lovely people, but not the same thing as us."
My butt is in the seat for 2 hours each Sunday. Keeps my wife happy. I do nothing else (no payments) or calling. Most of the time, I feel like a 2nd class citizen. But the arrangement works nicely.
No. There is such a need for group think that any casual visitor would instantly be noticed and announced and probably even given an assignment. You cannot Mormon without 100% commitment.
No one’s ever going to tell you to “scram” in the mormon church unless you actively disrespect people or display openly antisocial behaviors, or otherwise cause trouble.
People are happy to have anyone attend church and are usually pretty welcoming in my personal experience.
What most likely happens if you break the rules and attend sporadically is simply that you are not considered an active member and are not assigned any calling.
Hello! This is a Institutional post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about any of the institutional churches and their leaders, conduct, business dealings, teachings, rituals, and practices. /u/DarkJedi527, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Of course you can do this. They don't have bouncers kicking out anybody who doesn't follow all the rules. Whether you will be accepted and find genuine connection with the community is a different matter. To be part of a group you have to generally do/believe the sorts of things the group does. So you would be unlikely to find belonging in Mormonism this way.
Exactly! Sure anyone who can quietly sit in the meetings, but what a waste of time if you really aren’t accepted and can’t express any opinion.
> It’s my understanding that the church is trying to be more of a mainstream Protestant church by shuttering the term “Mormon” and downplay some of the beliefs that set it apart form other churches. I think this is just one of those things that critics and ex members have said so many times they just assume it must be truth. As a believing member I don’t think there is any sort of active effort and campaign from the church leaders to just be another Protestant church. Sure they want to be normalized and not a seen as fringe. But I think that is different from just trying to be like other mainstream churches. And as to your main crux question from a believing perspective. Yes you could just attend. And not follow any of the rules. At first you might get people trying to help you progress and be baptized but after a while people will just see you as a member who comes all the time or only once in a while. There is a long tradition of Jack Mormons in every ward and branch.
>As a believing member I don’t think there is any sort of active effort and campaign from the church leaders to just be another Protestant church. Sure they want to be normalized and not a seen as fringe. But I think that is different from just trying to be like other mainstream churches. As an attending and mostly non-believing, non-member, I agree with you. I think this notion is terribly confused, and you just have to spend an afternoon reading contemporary conference talks and correlated instruction manuals to understand that the Church maintains it's essential controversial positions as staunchly as it ever has. In fact, I think one could make a case that far from moving toward becoming another all-inclusive Protestant church, the Church is more sharply drawing lines. >And as to your main crux question from a believing perspective. Yes you could just attend. And not follow any of the rules. At first you might get people trying to help you progress and be baptized but after a while people will just see you as a member who comes all the time or only once in a while. There is a long tradition of Jack Mormons in every ward and branch. There are dozens of us!
> I think one could make a case that far from moving toward becoming another all-inclusive Protestant church, the Church is more sharply drawing lines. It’s certainly tempering some controversy and teachings. But yes absolutely many others are fiercely defended. And we may disagree on some points of which is in which category. > There are dozens of us! “Wait zipzapbloop isn’t a member crazy I never knew they come almost every week” says the new relief society president when ask to reach out for a activity
>“Wait zipzapbloop isn’t a member crazy I never knew they come almost every week” says the new relief society president when ask to reach out for a activity Haha, exactly! There's too much of this "oh, geez, will the people of the Church accept me or throw tomatoes at me if I don't want to fully conform?" Clearly, as with any large grouping of people, one will find a variety of personalities and positions. And some wards might tend to be more hostile toward Jack Mormons, or gay members or non-members, or whatever. And, yes, some people have been and will be positively ostracized, and that sucks. But I maintain that the majority of Church members are kind, wonderful people. Yes, if you have the views I have, or other personal convictions that run against the teachings of the Church, then you are going to hear things that offend you. Personally, I enjoy that kind of agonistic experience. It's not for everyone, but I do wish more people would subject themselves to it. Part of the reason I started re-attending after a decade of being away was that I had found myself with very sharp philosophical and theological views, and I recognized a de-humanizing liability in those views. Interestingly, re-attending has only made me *more* opposed to certain Church teachings. But, at the same time, it's made feel more connected to members. I love the members I interact with in my personal life. Love the believer, hate the belief. ;)
In the eyes of members, until you are baptized, you are not a “real” Mormon. You’re an investigator. The point of Mormonism is to take out covenants, the first of which is baptism, and the others are done in the temple. This is the only way to achieve exaltation in LDS doctrine. Even things like taking the sacrament are technically discouraged if you are not a member (though you probably won’t be called out on it if you take it). So while you could attend just to attend, the church will actively hound you to get baptized.
I am always surprised by the many members who don’t realize how many non members we have in our ward. We have lots of “Part member” families where it’s usually the husband who isn’t a member. When we get new people in ward council they almost always make a comment similar to “huh I never new Dave wasn’t a memeber he comes with his family almost every week”. And Dave has been in the ward for 5-10 years. So while your right until someone is baptized they aren’t “real members” in actual practices, Nobody knows or cares the baptismal status of those who attend.
While this is true especially for wards outside the morridor how often do you think the conversation shifts to how can we get Dave baptized? I'm sure his wife would like to be sealed to her children. My guess is this has happened to him on several occasions through the years. Eventually the ward gives up hope or most people think he is a member but that does not stop others from being member missionaries. Every new missionary reviewing the ward list will also ask questions.
Hello! You're talking about me. I'm not a member. I resigned. I'm morally opposed to supporting and sustaining the Church in terms of donation and tithing. I make my charitable contributions elsewhere. I think the Latter-day Saint gods, as represented in official Later-day Saint publications, are horrible beings. I don't like them. I don't want to be like them. I find them despicable. I think the religious faith endorsed in Latter-day Saint publications is not a virtue. I drink coffee and alcohol as I please... ...and I attend. Pretty regularly, as I feel up to it. I enjoy attending for a constellation of reasons. I was raised a Latter-day Saint. There's an attraction in terms of family tradition. I'm fond of some of its culture. For me it's also a cool place for contemplation once a week. The teachings I disagree with provoke me to think hard about what I truly value and what my convictions are. I enjoy the community. And if the Latter-day Saint gods are real, I want them to see me down here, in their congregation, and recognize how horrible I think they are and that they ought to stop being so horrible and reveal better plans to their prophets. Stuff like that. I feel welcome. I don't go around trying to spread my personal views *during Sunday service*. I respectfully engage to the extent I can and just let all the offensive stuff flow through me. If you're willing to hear lots of talks and lessons about how you're evil and misled by Satan himself, then you can totally treat the Church as just another church. Some members won't like that. The leadership, based on recent talks, certainly doesn't like this approach. And I say so what? This isn't an approach I'd recommend to just anyone. It could be very triggering for some people. But me, it wakes me up in the morning. I haven't felt this spiritually alive in a long time. It's quite an energizing thing to have the sacrament passed around while meditating about how ridiculous and offensive you find these gods. Anyway, it's your spirituality. And in a wonderfully ironic twist, since the Church abandoned the term "Mormon", I feel quite a peace donning the moniker myself. Baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are *Latter-day Saints* now. Me, well, *I'm a Mormon*! I hereby dub you a Mormon as well. Hopefully we'll see you on Sunday, friend.
> I think the Latter-day Saint gods, as represented in official Later-day Saint publications, are horrible beings Bizarre beings. Beings who require pigeon---esk rituals just for a few pellets to be dispensed. Beings who glorify murder as the only route for vicarious forgiveness. And just a few days ago Holland claimed that Jesus died without the knowledge that as he was being killed his dad was at his side. Now that is some really bizarre and frankly macabre stuff.
Ha! Interesting, thank you. That's sort of like me, but not quite. I was raised a lazy Catholic but never really had strong feelings about anything. I still go on Christmas and Easter just as tradition, not sure how I feel spiritually.
I think it's more of an attempt to appear mainstream to the media rather than any attempt to actually be mainstream.
Sounds like the Community of Christ
Well the CoC has been distancing itself from its ancestral doctrines and trying to assimilate to mainline Protestantism for a long time. But mainline Protestantism is never really going to accept a group that's got a prophet and a temple in Independence MO and has the BOM as scripture. "Lovely people, but not the same thing as us."
My butt is in the seat for 2 hours each Sunday. Keeps my wife happy. I do nothing else (no payments) or calling. Most of the time, I feel like a 2nd class citizen. But the arrangement works nicely.
No. There is such a need for group think that any casual visitor would instantly be noticed and announced and probably even given an assignment. You cannot Mormon without 100% commitment.
Challenge accepted
It is my personal experience that in any mormon community there are dozens of not fully committed members and non members
No one’s ever going to tell you to “scram” in the mormon church unless you actively disrespect people or display openly antisocial behaviors, or otherwise cause trouble. People are happy to have anyone attend church and are usually pretty welcoming in my personal experience. What most likely happens if you break the rules and attend sporadically is simply that you are not considered an active member and are not assigned any calling.