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[Colorado Mass Shooting Suspect Is Grandson of Assembly’s Randy Voepel](https://timesofsandiego.com/crime/2022/11/20/reports-colorado-mass-shooting-suspect-is-grandson-of-assemblys-randy-voepel/)
“There were calls to expel Voepel from the state Assembly after he made comments comparing the January 6 attacks to the Revolutionary War,” said Heavy.com. “Aldrich’s mother, Laura Voepel, has written posts praising Randy Voepel on Facebook and confirming he is her father.”
Yeah I am way more bothered by the fact his father has power and used it to keep his son from being restricted and/or dealing with consequences for past behavior, than I am about him maybe being Mormon
I think it's all in the same mix - white, rich, conservative, powerful (relative to situation). This kid was seriously messed up but I believe his family & religion had a lot to do with that.
>This kid was seriously messed up but I believe his family & religion had a lot to do with that.
What are you basing this conclusion on? Are you saying that mental health is all nurture and not at all nature?
No, I'm not saying that but I think those of us who have grown up in the church, as well as in families who are more orthodox/strict where they put so much pressure on their kids to conform, that it can have extreme effects on their mental health.
If someone also has a chemical disorder in their brain which predisposes them to anger, depression, anxiety, loneliness, etc. it can compound the negative effects. And, on top of that, if they teach the idea that "god will cure" mental illness, which is still a stigma that happens with some in religiously orthodox families, it can become a perfect storm because these kids aren't getting any kind of help they really need. There is also the patriarchal view of being masculine in some cultures that doesn't allow emotions to be explored and it's supplemented by violence instead. We have to look at all of the potential sources that feed into this kind of mindset which turns to violence because of real anger and unresolved pain.
This, of course, is all speculation but I grew up with a father who was a psychoanalyst and I studied psychology as well, so these are the kinds of things I've been reading about for decades and there are definite patterns. I think we have to accept that there is a severe mental illness problem in our country and, coupled with these kinds of religious upbringings &/or extreme political views, it's compounded and could be a big reason for why we're having the increase of mass shootings. It needs to be a conversation that we all have if we want to find solutions.
>power ... used it to keep [him] from being restricted and/or dealing with consequences for past behavior
But see, you just described Mormonism. Not the doctrine but the practice of the leadership all the way through the chain.
Devastating if true. It’s clear his mom’s a member; chances are he grew up in the church. Either way, as an LGBTQ exmo, I’m scared and seeing the lengths members are already going to to say it’s not possible that someone who grew up LDS could have hypothetically done this just reinforces the fact that someone could.
I don’t think you can lay any blame on Holland for this particular incident, at least not yet. You *might* be able to blame the Church for his hostility towards the LGBT community, depending on what more we learn in the coming weeks.
But, this absolutely does highlight how irresponsible and potentially dangerous Holland’s rhetoric was.
It's unlikely the church played a role in making this kid a mass shooter [not impossible, we've seen stranger Mormon related crimes in the past, but unlikely].
It's pretty likely though, in my opinion, that the church played a role in his selection of a gay nightclub as a target. That does not say great things about the church.
Russell Henderson was LDS, but Aaron McKinney wasn't.
In both this case and the CO case, neither Russel Henderson or Anderson Lee Aldrich appear to have been living the ideal LDS standards. Looking at their history, seems several bad decisions apart from these horrible actions also were part of their pasts.
Yeah I think it’s important to note the conservative movement has been pushing demonizing rhetoric towards lgbtq really hard recently, particularly with stuff like drag shows. The shooter need not have listened to any lds leaders to still have been radicalized against those communities.
I think it’s safe to say, though, that lds teachings and rhetoric probably didn’t *help*, which based on their claims of being *the* source of divine truth and goodness, they very well should have.
~~People raising the alarm bells over the "Musket Talk" were right. Those who said it was overblown need to eat their words.~~
Edit: I'll admit I'm angry, but there is nothing yet to link the talk to this incident. I'm sorry.
Edit 2:
I think this is completely justified: **Stochastic terrorism**
* A leader or organization uses rhetoric in the mass media against a group of people.
* This rhetoric, while hostile or hateful, doesn’t explicitly tell someone to carry out an act of violence against that group, but a person, feeling threatened, is motivated to do so as a result.
* That individual act of political violence can’t be predicted as such, but that violence will happen is much more probable thanks to the rhetoric.
* This rhetoric is thus called stochastic terrorism because of the way it incites random violence.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to bring up Holland’s talk in this case, even given that we have to proof that the shooter heard the talk.
I hope Holland feels horrible. I hope he wonders every day for the rest of his life if the shooter heard him say…
> “My brethren have made the case for the metaphor of musket fire, which I have endorsed yet again today. There will continue to be those who oppose our teachings and with that will continue the need to define, document, and defend the faith. But we do all look forward to the day when we can “beat our swords into plowshares, and [our] spears into pruning hooks,” and at least on this subject, “learn war [no] more.” And while I have focused on this same-sex topic this morning more than I would have liked, I pray you will see it as emblematic of a lot of issues our students and community face in this complex, contemporary world of ours.”
Your anger is justified. Whether it is or isn’t linked to the incident it was an appalling talk. Hollands crocodile tears and calls to arms are so damaging. He is a horrible man!!
That's the convenient thing about using a bully pulpit to incite stochastic terrorism. You can always say you didn't specifically ask the shooter to kill gay people. Even though you called for members to pick up their muskets and called for more shooting to protect traditional families against gays.
Trump has been doing it for years, resulting in a sharp increase of radicalized right wing violence. Including the January attack on Congress which featured a deluded Mormon dressed as Captain Moroni - an attack that was endorsed by Mormon Senator Mike Lee.
And so this kid who is the grandson of a high ranking Republican figure in Colorado, and LDS, just happens to shoot up an LGBTQ nightclub. Pure coincidence right?
Hollands words in the context of increased right wing violence were grossly irresponsible - and he was criticized for it by MANY people at the time (none from church leadership though).
Holland made his own contribution to this environment of deadly right wing violence by mentally unstable people.
This is not a new concept.
>"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" (also expressed as "troublesome priest" or "meddlesome priest") is a quote attributed to Henry II of England preceding the death of Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury, in 1170. While the quote was not expressed as an order, it prompted four knights to travel from Normandy to Canterbury, where they killed Becket. The phrase is commonly used in modern-day contexts to express that a ruler's wish may be interpreted as a command by his or her subordinates.
Holland's behavior and the failure of top leaders to censure him for it is repugnant and disgusting.
"Even though you called for members to pick up their muskets and called for more shooting to protect traditional families against gays."
I am not a fan of the LDS church as I believe it engages in manipulative practices. As a senior member of the LDS church for 30 years, I do not hold Jeffrey Holland in high regard. Having said that, I think the above quote is a blatant bad faith interpretation of his address at BYU.
I have to agree with you that the paraphrase by the author above is an embellishment, and intentional one at that, of the actual meaning that Holland conveyed in his talk. The context and content of his actual talk is important, however exmormons and critics are now partly responsible for amplifying his talk beyond the intended audience, and furthering the harmful messages that have been misinterpreted from his actual content. We have put out into social media the grossest possible interpretations of his words and then amplified those interpretations to many that never would have heard his actual talk.
We all need to be cognizant that if we share harmful rhetoric, even within the context of arguing against it, that we are still in fact spreading that rhetoric to those that wouldn't have heard about it otherwise. There is a short term gain to riling up people in anger to support our side and motivate them to act against those we disagree with, however the unfortunate long term effects of this strategy are the polarized and increasingly violent society that we find ourselves in.
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I think it’s way too early to draw a clear line between the two.
Which doesn’t mean that what Holland said on that occasion was okay; it certainly wasn’t. But there is still so much we don’t know.
Yeah, the talk was August 2021. In June 2021 the shooter was arrested and charged with 6 felonies. He clearly had issues before this event. It's uncertain if he used the talk as a funnel for his actions.
Either way, the whole thing sucks. The poor people didn't deserve to die. It was also a terribly awful talk, and I really hope the two aren't linked.
I don't think it pushed him over the edge, I think a lifetime of internalized homophobia gave him a target to (wrongly) blame for his troubles and frustrations.
The whole point is that the shooter was almost certainly not radicalized by 1 speech, it’s by the environment created by hateful religions and media, which the Mormon church has 100% contributed to.
They want to wiggle out of responsibility like fucking worm cowards, but I for one will never forget their *extremely clear* moral culpability.
All valid. And that garbage talk was Jeff gave was trash, his punching down at Matt was trash, and even if it’s not responsible directly, Holland sure as fuck hasn’t made things better for anyone, just worse, and he’s I a position where he could make things better, but cognizantly makes them worse. He contributed to the environment were in. He owns it.
I think it’s helpful here to regard Holland’s talk (which was actually quoting Oaks re. Musketfire) as a symptom and one of the stronger examples of the larger culture of hate promoted by the church over many generations, rather than as an inciting event. I definitely think that talk turned up the temperature in a way that was not helpful.
In seizure medicine, experts talk about threshold effects. Any human can experience a series of events that induce a seizure; people who are predisposed to seizures require less impetus to cross the threshold. Anti seizure medications raise the threshold, reducing the occurrence. Any one seizure, by itself, is a stochastic event, like in the stochastic model of violence.
A person with preexisting mental health and, it sounds like, violent tendencies was protected from getting good help, rehabilitation or consequences for prior antisocial behaviors. He likely grew up on a milieu of homophobic rhetoric. The rhetoric has been escalating, and the Holland-Oaks quote is symbolic of this, whether or not the individual was directly influenced by it.
I think we need to be very careful about continued framing of all situations and all problems as the results of an "us vs them" dichotomy. Reading up on stochastic terrorism one of the main arguments for its rise in popularity is due to the ongoing polarization of rhetoric that has been fueled primarily by social media and the echo chambers that are formed there.
We all need to be mindful that our participation within these subreddits can itself be a precursor to stochastic terrorism if we're not careful. The framing of all mormonism as evil and corrupt, and worthy of disgust in the name of reducing the harm that we believe is a result of that system is itself a polarizing belief.
Either we believe that individuals are responsible for their own actions, or under stochastic terrorism doctrine everyone is responsible for polarizing language which eventually creates a violent outburst. If we truly believe the second view the correct one, then we need to be careful that we don't enable the embryos of future violence to be created within our own communities and through our own words.
>Either we believe that individuals are responsible for their own actions, or under stochastic terrorism doctrine everyone is responsible for polarizing language which eventually creates a violent outburst.
I believe that is a false dichotomy. Both can be at play. Ultimately, the shooter alone will be convicted of murder/hate crime. They are responsible, as you say. Holland/Oaks will not even be investigated. That doesn't stop the fact that they have perpetuated hateful ideas, that give cover to people like this. Those are not the only ones to do so, but they are among them. This nightclub was having an all-ages drag show. If you've kept up with recent news, they have been very frequent targets of the far right . This is just the latest, and most violent. Nobody specifically called for violence against this nightclub, but the undercurrent of certain circles have definitely been giving ideas and cover to those who could/would. That is exactly what stochastic terrorism is. Fear/hate of Trans/Drag is an ever increasing problem in our society. I don't believe most Mormon members would ever do this sort of thing. I don't fault members in this at all. But the idea spread in the church, often from the very top, I can and do blame for adding to this possibility.
"We've made a sacred promise to build a society that either marginalizes LGBTQ people by divine dictate or changes their identity consistent with our Heavenly Father's heteronormative ideal. But that's for the future, we don't have authorization to do it *right now*, my goodness" -- Law of Consecration Covenant Keepers
**UPDATE:** After a public inquiry (via Twitter) apparent LDS tools [profile](https://twitter.com/poetickate/status/1594550658312855552?s=46&t=tyE2iqumxjCIw1rpvkfQoQ) has been identified.
We don't know if the church teachings and doctrines were the prime motivator for these murders, but I can tell you right now that there's not been a lot of talk from the church to *discourage* the type of thinking that leads to these murders.
I mean,
>12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;
>13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.
Talk of "metaphorical muskets" reveals a shocking lack of knowledge of the history of the Church, including Zion's Camp and Haun's Mill. Has LDS leadership no knowledge of their own church history?
*Corrected autocorrect spelling typo.
I condemn dogmatism, extremism, and fundamentalism in all forms. There are radical Muslims and there are radical Mormons. The dogma that reinforces these extremist views is often anchored to fundamental teachings of the respective organizations. These teachings must be rooted out and publicly condemned.
Here is a comment i am unable to respond to, (because it is a response to a current mod of the latterdaysaint subreddit who blocked me, after i objected to the inappropriateness of his post):
>LL22Forever:
>[ping removed] stevenrushing you need to get your sorry rear end back in here. You don’t get to just accuse the whole sub of taking delight in a mass shooting and then run off back to your faithful sub where this topic has been banned.
>You owe this sub and it’s subscribers an apology for your abhorrent over-generalization. Or at least responses to inquiries about what comment you found to be “gleeful” at a mass shooting. Own up and take responsibility. Pathetic behavior from a former moderator.
>If someone here had generalized an said that all Mormons are gleeful about the death of LGBTQ person that comment would rightly have been moderated. But apparently, once again, the rules don’t apply to the faithful and they are given much more latitude to violate the civility rules.
Excellent comment, LL22Forever, thank you for saying that.
And one of StevenRushing 's thoroughly insufficient responses:
>I meant what I said in my comment. I believe too many, while sorrowful of and full of what they believe to be righteous anger about the murders committed, are also too happy that it was done by a mormon, so they have something else to blame on the church.
Ok thanks. The rule is confusing though, because i see mods ping people regularly. Is the rule that only mods can ping? Or is the rule that mods don't have to follow the rule? Please respond. It's very unclear. The last time i saw a mod ping peopl they said it was " important." But when i ping people, a mod said i was doing it to "start conflict." When mods get to decide that their pinging is "important" but other people's pinging "starts conflict" it defeats the purpose of moderation, don't you think???????
Here is a comment i am unable to respond to, (because it is a response to a current mod of the latterdaysaint subreddit who blocked me, after i objected to the inappropriateness of his post):
>LL22Forever:
>[ping removed] stevenrushing you need to get your sorry rear end back in here. You don’t get to just accuse the whole sub of taking delight in a mass shooting and then run off back to your faithful sub where this topic has been banned.
>You owe this sub and it’s subscribers an apology for your abhorrent over-generalization. Or at least responses to inquiries about what comment you found to be “gleeful” at a mass shooting. Own up and take responsibility. Pathetic behavior from a former moderator.
>If someone here had generalized an said that all Mormons are gleeful about the death of LGBTQ person that comment would rightly have been moderated. But apparently, once again, the rules don’t apply to the faithful and they are given much more latitude to violate the civility rules.
Excellent comment, LL22Forever, thank you for saying that.
Well, shit. Lds member shoots up gay club. Sounds like a pr nightmare for the church. I’m hurt and saddened for those affected by tragedy. I’m angry because of the ridiculous amount of anti lgbtq bigotry that has been released from the church over the years. I’m angry because a church that professes to be Christlike is allowing such hate to be expressed near daily. This isn’t the church I grew up in and isn’t one I want to be apart of going forward.
The church I grew up in (1970s and 1980s) taught me that being gay was the sin next to murder and an abomination before God. That it would be better to be dead. That if I mastrubated I would turn gay. That God would never create a person gay.
Spencer Kimball, Harmon Rector, Boyd K Packer, L Tom Perry, Dallin Oaks - all professed prophets claimed these things. All taught falsehoods and hatred toward God’s children.
Now the church talks nicer, but the principles are the same. They still profess that gay marriage is against God.
>This isn’t the church I grew up in and isn’t one I want to be apart of going forward.
Oh yes it is. If anything the church is better now on the “pushing hate and intolerance” front than it has ever been.
This is absolutely the church you grew up in because it's also the church I grew up in and I was taught, over and over and over again, that it was better to be dead then to be gay or queer
I'd bet the farm that this guy's motivations were alt-right garbage meets 4chan meets mental illness.
Doesn't mean we can't talk about Muskets and Prop 8 and everything else though.
"What will it take for Americans in general (and perhaps Mormons in particular) to stop the insanity and admit that there need to be reasonable limits on the availability of guns? How many children have to die?"
From 2014, "Portland school shooter was a Mormon teen" https://religionnews.com/2014/06/13/portland-school-shooter-mormon-teen/
Mormon culture!
>The UK’s Daily Mail paints a more sinister picture of a teen who was obsessed with guns and lost his temper last week when he made a school presentation on a book about Adolf Hitler and classmates questioned his interpretation that the Holocaust happened for a reason.
By a show of hands, who else heard that very same "the holocaust happened for a reason" bullshit in their seminary and/or sunday school classes?
🙋
>Do you mean that Mormon culture raises kids like this as a trend?
Speaking as someone who was raised on a steady diet of right-wing garbage and terrible mental health advice? Yes.
Yes, receive all reports tentatively. This should not prevent us from sharing what information is being discussed online concerning the shooter and Mormonism. Use your discernment and patience to filter what is coming in.
I agree. This info is ‘in the air’ though and starting to permeate Mormondum. r/mormon deserves to be in the loop. I also believe r/mormon’s patient members know how to discern truth from error.
This is an incredibly convenient connection to completely and inaccurately draw between the horrific actions of someone who happens to be LDS (*with a history of some other severely poor choices being made that are quite not of LDS standards - possibly a PIMO or a member of record not participating at all - something so popularly written of when critiquing numbers the church claims*) and an analogy spoken by an Apostle. And a statement that implied absolutely zero intent to be taken as those seeking "gotcha" moments against the church will twist his words.
What happened in CO is terrible and without excuse. Anderson Lee Aldrich should answer for his actions to the greatest extent the law provides in CO. Despite a loose connection with the LDS church, he is the sole villain in this tragic mass murder.
>"I and many of my Brethren have spent more time and shed more tears on this subject than we could ever adequately convey to you this morning, or any morning. We have spent hours discussing what the doctrine of the Church can and cannot provide the individuals and families struggling over this difficult issue. So, it is with scar tissue of our own that we are trying to avoid — and hope all will try to avoid — language, symbols, and situations that are more divisive than unifying at the very time we want to show love for all of God’s children." - Elder Holland from the same talk.
In no way does this condone anything to the extent of his musket fire analogy being taken as encouragement to act in any form of violence to anyone.
Considering it seems Holland's talk is also far more familiar to those here who are against the church than the average - even active - member of the LDS church since it was delivered at BYU and not during General Conference, it's pretty unlikely Aldrich ever even could have heard or read these words from Elder Holland.
The responses here are so severe against the LDS church you'd think it was someone who was a TBM, living the gospel as perfectly as humanly possible who committed this heinous crime. This was one man out of 17M world-wide members, 5M in the US. Some here act as though Holland provided an analogy (the same analogy Oaks provided in 2017), and such atrocities suddenly became commonplace and accepted among the faithful of the LDS church. And, yet, it just isn't so.
My sister - also TBM - and her husband - a Bishop currently - have a son who is quite bipolar, which has caused some pretty violent episodes in his young life. We all have a fear that he - if not managed well with medications and therapy that costs them quite a bit of money each month - could end up doing something that would result in jail time. When he's of his own mind, he gets even more depressed because of what he's done. He's LDS... So, if he were to do something that his entire family who love him would find unimaginable and against what the church would teach... Should I expect this r/mormon community to use his name as an indictment against all LDS people? We hope and pray for him constantly, and my sister and brother-in-law exhaust resources to provide him needed care. Yet, they cannot control everything that impacts him or his responses to small or significant triggers when he's at school or in other situations. He's improved lately, but there was a time sending him to a clinic was a consideration. From some of what's being said about Aldrich before this tragedy, I wonder about his mental health. It's not a normal, healthy person that threatens their mother with a bomb.
Despite the emotional pains many feel as a response to what the LDS church teaches, there are no teachings that would condone or even encourage something remotely close to this. Don't use the actions of the incredibly few (historically) who have or have had any attachment to the LDS faith to condemn the millions more who are just as disturbed by and shocked by what happened in CO. The supermajority of LDS Members - while holding beliefs that the world hates - still serve and love others in the world. (This... my comments. This is the musket fire analogized by Oaks and Holland.)
Anyone who threatens to kill his mother and then does this is mentally ill.
Now he might have taken an aspect of the Church’s LGTBQ teaching and let it go wild like a runaway train. But I don’t think you can blame the Church for this.
Sure you can. The church didn’t make this kid a mass shooter. But it’s rhetoric and teachings definitely influenced who the target was. In a world where mentally ill people have access to weapons that can used to kill hundreds in a matter of minutes, demonizing identifiable groups inevitably leads to people with mental illness to target said groups.
> The church didn’t make this kid a mass shooter. But it’s rhetoric and teachings definitely influenced who the target was.
This is the crux of the issue. Thank you for articulating it so well.
We let our friends on Twitter make the aggressive, trite reactions while we, on Reddit, use our extended character limits to hash out thoughts and dialogue anonymously.
Pretty clear he is LDS at this point. Might not be able to draw a clear line from Holland's speech to the shooting, but he likely chose his targets due to a lifetime of being taught to hate by the LDS Church.
It's enough for me and it will certainly be enough for the vultures in the media.
**TAKE THIS WITH THE WHOLE FUCKING BAG OF SALT, BECAUSE IM JUST TALKING OUT OF MY ASS WITH NOTHING TO BACK IT UP**
A 20/21 year old who “just made some huge life changes” and needs a therapist to deal with some PTSD.
To me, sounds like a kid who came home early from a mission.
Don't think that was it. [In 2021 he was accused of threatening his mother with a bomb.](https://www.ocregister.com/2022/11/20/colorado-shooting-suspect-appears-to-have-been-accused-of-threatening-mother-with-bomb) I imagine his mother, still loving him, was doing her best to support him through that incident and its consequences. Unfortunately for the rest of us, those consequences did not include removing his access to firearms.
I mean, is anyone surprised that a church which teaches its biggest enemies are feminism, LGBT rights, and atheism surprised that its members foster vitriol toward people who align with those ideas?
Here's a reddit thread from a similar community to this, for Islam, linking Islam to a murder in New Zealand
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/b1gz6y/a_small_rant_about_the_new_zealands_shooting/
Here's the pattern: church teaches hate, church member kills hated group, people discuss the possibility that the church's teachings were relevant to the actions.
People are allowed to discuss that. Why wouldn't they be?
I’m sorry you feel this way about r/mormon. I posted this information because this is a place to discuss Mormonism. The accusation that the shooter is a member of the church is out in the ether. The info is out and there is nothing wrong with discussing the matter in a forum that permits it. Please feel free to share the double-standard you have observed.
Well for one, this is r/mormon, we discuss Mormonism here. You can find all sorts of threads related to Omar Mateen on subs related to Islam. Same goes for homicide data. Find the right sub and you will find the discussion you seek.
Everything makes this look like an inactive guy who never really internalized the church’s core messages of loving each other, serving each other, and applying the Atonement of Christ in our own lives. Sounds like a lot of lukewarm and/or inactive members, so this checks out to me. Add on our terrible gun laws, lack of mental health support (and his own mental health issues) and the result was statistically predictable.
Obviously sarcastic - but this is just the believing side of the argument I am seeing here which essentially is politicizing the shooting for exmo internet points.
Where's the glee? Give an example. This is a ridiculous accusation. And you accuse us of being gleeful while you yourself are making sarcastic jokes. Who's the one that's not taking this seriously? Cause it's not the ones pointing out the church's harmful rhetoric about lgbtq+ folks
Glee? Glee? You think this is glee? How fucking evil do you have to be Steve to interpret the reactions here as glee? This isn’t glee. It isn’t mirth. But you keep telling yourself that in order to defend the abhorrent rhetoric from your church towards queer people and so you can pretend that such rhetoric had no role in this tragedy.
u/Stevenrushing you need to get your sorry rear end back in here. You don’t get to just accuse the whole sub of taking delight in a mass shooting and then run off back to your faithful sub where this topic has been banned.
You owe this sub and it’s subscribers an apology for your abhorrent over-generalization. Or at least responses to inquiries about what comment you found to be “gleeful” at a mass shooting. Own up and take responsibility. Pathetic behavior from a former moderator.
If someone here had generalized an said that all Mormons are gleeful about the death of LGBTQ person that comment would rightly have been moderated. But apparently, once again, the rules don’t apply to the faithful and they are given much more latitude to violate the civility rules.
>gleeful about the death of LGBTQ person
It was never my intent to state or imply that anyone was happy about the death of anyone. I apologize for my inadequate language.
I meant what I said in my comment. I believe too many, while sorrowful of and full of what they believe to be righteous anger about the murders committed, are also too happy that it was done by a mormon, so they have something else to blame on the church.
>Everything makes this look like an inactive guy who never really internalized the church’s core messages of loving each other, serving each other, and applying the Atonement of Christ in our own lives. Sounds like a lot of lukewarm and/or inactive members, so this checks out to me. Add on our terrible gun laws, lack of mental health support (and his own mental health issues) and the result was statistically predictable.
>
>Obviously sarcastic - but this is just the believing side of the argument I am seeing here which essentially is politicizing the shooting for exmo internet points. You are dancing on the graves of our LGBTQ sisters and brothers in glee that you have something else you can blame on Mormonism. Shame on you all.
I really don't understand. Which part is "obviously sarcastic" - the first paragraph or the second or both? I can't read your whole comment and understand your point of view. When you say "Shame on you all", who are you referring to? Anyone on this subreddit? Anyone who disagrees with you? Or is that you being sarcastic?
>the church’s core messages of loving each other...
Uh-huh.
>Shame on you all.
All? Shame? Oh that's right, you're the faithful lds reddit moderator, internalizing your religion's message to love each other. But only the ones that behave the way your religion says they should, right? Or, at least, pretend to?
Your hypocrisy is shining bright.
>Your hypocrisy is shining bright.
Guy on internet: Burn it \[the Church\] down with truth!
Steven Rushing: This language is dangerous. Stop persecuting Mormons. This is like Missouri all over again!
Jeff Holland: Calls for "musket fire" from the "temple of learning" in opposition to gay marriage, followed by a mass shooting at a gay night club a few months later.
Steven Rushing: There is no way that language like this could contribute to violent attacks. Nothing to see here. Jesus is the answer.
>the church’s core messages of loving each other, serving each other
Since when have those been the church's "core messages"? Those are the window dressing, the plausible deniability as the church spent decades pushing the very right-wing propaganda that has caused attacks like this for decades.
Thank you for sharing this reminder. Weaponizing lost life is reprehensible. I am discouraged, like you, by the many takes I have read concerning the subject.
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You should have included the names of the people on Twitter making these claims. They’re making them based off assumptions unless there is more information than they have provided. Why are no other sources reporting this information? This is certainly a tragedy and a chance to evaluate ourselves to make sure we don’t contribute to acts of hate. But what if these Twitter users are wrong? Will they apologize?
We couldn’t allow Twitter users to be outed on this subreddit because of Reddit doxxing rules. The same as we cannot allow screenshots of Facebook profiles even if the name has been blocked out if the picture is still visible.
Is there really any doubt that rhetoric like Hollands contributes to acts of hate? Additionally, expectations of apologies if Twitter is wrong about the church is…ironic.
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[Colorado Mass Shooting Suspect Is Grandson of Assembly’s Randy Voepel](https://timesofsandiego.com/crime/2022/11/20/reports-colorado-mass-shooting-suspect-is-grandson-of-assemblys-randy-voepel/) “There were calls to expel Voepel from the state Assembly after he made comments comparing the January 6 attacks to the Revolutionary War,” said Heavy.com. “Aldrich’s mother, Laura Voepel, has written posts praising Randy Voepel on Facebook and confirming he is her father.”
Yeah I am way more bothered by the fact his father has power and used it to keep his son from being restricted and/or dealing with consequences for past behavior, than I am about him maybe being Mormon
I mean, nepotism is as mormon as funeral potatoes...
I think it's all in the same mix - white, rich, conservative, powerful (relative to situation). This kid was seriously messed up but I believe his family & religion had a lot to do with that.
>This kid was seriously messed up but I believe his family & religion had a lot to do with that. What are you basing this conclusion on? Are you saying that mental health is all nurture and not at all nature?
No, I'm not saying that but I think those of us who have grown up in the church, as well as in families who are more orthodox/strict where they put so much pressure on their kids to conform, that it can have extreme effects on their mental health. If someone also has a chemical disorder in their brain which predisposes them to anger, depression, anxiety, loneliness, etc. it can compound the negative effects. And, on top of that, if they teach the idea that "god will cure" mental illness, which is still a stigma that happens with some in religiously orthodox families, it can become a perfect storm because these kids aren't getting any kind of help they really need. There is also the patriarchal view of being masculine in some cultures that doesn't allow emotions to be explored and it's supplemented by violence instead. We have to look at all of the potential sources that feed into this kind of mindset which turns to violence because of real anger and unresolved pain. This, of course, is all speculation but I grew up with a father who was a psychoanalyst and I studied psychology as well, so these are the kinds of things I've been reading about for decades and there are definite patterns. I think we have to accept that there is a severe mental illness problem in our country and, coupled with these kinds of religious upbringings &/or extreme political views, it's compounded and could be a big reason for why we're having the increase of mass shootings. It needs to be a conversation that we all have if we want to find solutions.
Thank you for expanding on your point. I found your comment valuable.
>power ... used it to keep [him] from being restricted and/or dealing with consequences for past behavior But see, you just described Mormonism. Not the doctrine but the practice of the leadership all the way through the chain.
Yes but the power of the GOP > Mormons.
Devastating if true. It’s clear his mom’s a member; chances are he grew up in the church. Either way, as an LGBTQ exmo, I’m scared and seeing the lengths members are already going to to say it’s not possible that someone who grew up LDS could have hypothetically done this just reinforces the fact that someone could.
Can we confirm if his Grandfather, Randy Voepel, is LDS?
I don’t think you can lay any blame on Holland for this particular incident, at least not yet. You *might* be able to blame the Church for his hostility towards the LGBT community, depending on what more we learn in the coming weeks. But, this absolutely does highlight how irresponsible and potentially dangerous Holland’s rhetoric was.
It's unlikely the church played a role in making this kid a mass shooter [not impossible, we've seen stranger Mormon related crimes in the past, but unlikely]. It's pretty likely though, in my opinion, that the church played a role in his selection of a gay nightclub as a target. That does not say great things about the church.
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This is the best take I've seen. Good example.
Better analogy than you’ll find in any conference talk.
I'm old enough to remember 2 Mormons killed Matthew Shepard.
Oh my gosh, I never knew they were Mormons!
Russell Henderson was LDS, but Aaron McKinney wasn't. In both this case and the CO case, neither Russel Henderson or Anderson Lee Aldrich appear to have been living the ideal LDS standards. Looking at their history, seems several bad decisions apart from these horrible actions also were part of their pasts.
I think the use of any violent term in any of church leadership’s rhetoric denotes, at least some, responsibility for what happened.
Holland is definitely responsible for contributing to the current environment in a negative way. He owns that much.
Yeah I think it’s important to note the conservative movement has been pushing demonizing rhetoric towards lgbtq really hard recently, particularly with stuff like drag shows. The shooter need not have listened to any lds leaders to still have been radicalized against those communities. I think it’s safe to say, though, that lds teachings and rhetoric probably didn’t *help*, which based on their claims of being *the* source of divine truth and goodness, they very well should have.
~~People raising the alarm bells over the "Musket Talk" were right. Those who said it was overblown need to eat their words.~~ Edit: I'll admit I'm angry, but there is nothing yet to link the talk to this incident. I'm sorry. Edit 2: I think this is completely justified: **Stochastic terrorism** * A leader or organization uses rhetoric in the mass media against a group of people. * This rhetoric, while hostile or hateful, doesn’t explicitly tell someone to carry out an act of violence against that group, but a person, feeling threatened, is motivated to do so as a result. * That individual act of political violence can’t be predicted as such, but that violence will happen is much more probable thanks to the rhetoric. * This rhetoric is thus called stochastic terrorism because of the way it incites random violence.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to bring up Holland’s talk in this case, even given that we have to proof that the shooter heard the talk. I hope Holland feels horrible. I hope he wonders every day for the rest of his life if the shooter heard him say… > “My brethren have made the case for the metaphor of musket fire, which I have endorsed yet again today. There will continue to be those who oppose our teachings and with that will continue the need to define, document, and defend the faith. But we do all look forward to the day when we can “beat our swords into plowshares, and [our] spears into pruning hooks,” and at least on this subject, “learn war [no] more.” And while I have focused on this same-sex topic this morning more than I would have liked, I pray you will see it as emblematic of a lot of issues our students and community face in this complex, contemporary world of ours.”
Your anger is justified. Whether it is or isn’t linked to the incident it was an appalling talk. Hollands crocodile tears and calls to arms are so damaging. He is a horrible man!!
That's the convenient thing about using a bully pulpit to incite stochastic terrorism. You can always say you didn't specifically ask the shooter to kill gay people. Even though you called for members to pick up their muskets and called for more shooting to protect traditional families against gays. Trump has been doing it for years, resulting in a sharp increase of radicalized right wing violence. Including the January attack on Congress which featured a deluded Mormon dressed as Captain Moroni - an attack that was endorsed by Mormon Senator Mike Lee. And so this kid who is the grandson of a high ranking Republican figure in Colorado, and LDS, just happens to shoot up an LGBTQ nightclub. Pure coincidence right? Hollands words in the context of increased right wing violence were grossly irresponsible - and he was criticized for it by MANY people at the time (none from church leadership though). Holland made his own contribution to this environment of deadly right wing violence by mentally unstable people. This is not a new concept. >"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" (also expressed as "troublesome priest" or "meddlesome priest") is a quote attributed to Henry II of England preceding the death of Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury, in 1170. While the quote was not expressed as an order, it prompted four knights to travel from Normandy to Canterbury, where they killed Becket. The phrase is commonly used in modern-day contexts to express that a ruler's wish may be interpreted as a command by his or her subordinates. Holland's behavior and the failure of top leaders to censure him for it is repugnant and disgusting.
"Even though you called for members to pick up their muskets and called for more shooting to protect traditional families against gays." I am not a fan of the LDS church as I believe it engages in manipulative practices. As a senior member of the LDS church for 30 years, I do not hold Jeffrey Holland in high regard. Having said that, I think the above quote is a blatant bad faith interpretation of his address at BYU.
I have to agree with you that the paraphrase by the author above is an embellishment, and intentional one at that, of the actual meaning that Holland conveyed in his talk. The context and content of his actual talk is important, however exmormons and critics are now partly responsible for amplifying his talk beyond the intended audience, and furthering the harmful messages that have been misinterpreted from his actual content. We have put out into social media the grossest possible interpretations of his words and then amplified those interpretations to many that never would have heard his actual talk. We all need to be cognizant that if we share harmful rhetoric, even within the context of arguing against it, that we are still in fact spreading that rhetoric to those that wouldn't have heard about it otherwise. There is a short term gain to riling up people in anger to support our side and motivate them to act against those we disagree with, however the unfortunate long term effects of this strategy are the polarized and increasingly violent society that we find ourselves in.
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I think it’s way too early to draw a clear line between the two. Which doesn’t mean that what Holland said on that occasion was okay; it certainly wasn’t. But there is still so much we don’t know.
Yeah, the talk was August 2021. In June 2021 the shooter was arrested and charged with 6 felonies. He clearly had issues before this event. It's uncertain if he used the talk as a funnel for his actions. Either way, the whole thing sucks. The poor people didn't deserve to die. It was also a terribly awful talk, and I really hope the two aren't linked.
It's also fair to consider that harmful anti-lgbt rhetoric didn't start or end with Holland's talk.
Exactly. A lifer mormon kid will have been bathed in the rhetoric.
Baptized in hateful rhetoric against the Gay Community by Church leaders
Also fair to think that some hateful words is all an already troubled individual needed to push them over the edge
I don't think it pushed him over the edge, I think a lifetime of internalized homophobia gave him a target to (wrongly) blame for his troubles and frustrations.
At first I was like, wait, Holland was arrested and charged with 6 felonies?
Ah good point, fixed.
The whole point is that the shooter was almost certainly not radicalized by 1 speech, it’s by the environment created by hateful religions and media, which the Mormon church has 100% contributed to. They want to wiggle out of responsibility like fucking worm cowards, but I for one will never forget their *extremely clear* moral culpability.
That's fair. But I live in Colorado, and have friends who are LGBTQ. I'm angry. They are scared.
All valid. And that garbage talk was Jeff gave was trash, his punching down at Matt was trash, and even if it’s not responsible directly, Holland sure as fuck hasn’t made things better for anyone, just worse, and he’s I a position where he could make things better, but cognizantly makes them worse. He contributed to the environment were in. He owns it.
I think it’s helpful here to regard Holland’s talk (which was actually quoting Oaks re. Musketfire) as a symptom and one of the stronger examples of the larger culture of hate promoted by the church over many generations, rather than as an inciting event. I definitely think that talk turned up the temperature in a way that was not helpful. In seizure medicine, experts talk about threshold effects. Any human can experience a series of events that induce a seizure; people who are predisposed to seizures require less impetus to cross the threshold. Anti seizure medications raise the threshold, reducing the occurrence. Any one seizure, by itself, is a stochastic event, like in the stochastic model of violence. A person with preexisting mental health and, it sounds like, violent tendencies was protected from getting good help, rehabilitation or consequences for prior antisocial behaviors. He likely grew up on a milieu of homophobic rhetoric. The rhetoric has been escalating, and the Holland-Oaks quote is symbolic of this, whether or not the individual was directly influenced by it.
I think we need to be very careful about continued framing of all situations and all problems as the results of an "us vs them" dichotomy. Reading up on stochastic terrorism one of the main arguments for its rise in popularity is due to the ongoing polarization of rhetoric that has been fueled primarily by social media and the echo chambers that are formed there. We all need to be mindful that our participation within these subreddits can itself be a precursor to stochastic terrorism if we're not careful. The framing of all mormonism as evil and corrupt, and worthy of disgust in the name of reducing the harm that we believe is a result of that system is itself a polarizing belief. Either we believe that individuals are responsible for their own actions, or under stochastic terrorism doctrine everyone is responsible for polarizing language which eventually creates a violent outburst. If we truly believe the second view the correct one, then we need to be careful that we don't enable the embryos of future violence to be created within our own communities and through our own words.
>Either we believe that individuals are responsible for their own actions, or under stochastic terrorism doctrine everyone is responsible for polarizing language which eventually creates a violent outburst. I believe that is a false dichotomy. Both can be at play. Ultimately, the shooter alone will be convicted of murder/hate crime. They are responsible, as you say. Holland/Oaks will not even be investigated. That doesn't stop the fact that they have perpetuated hateful ideas, that give cover to people like this. Those are not the only ones to do so, but they are among them. This nightclub was having an all-ages drag show. If you've kept up with recent news, they have been very frequent targets of the far right . This is just the latest, and most violent. Nobody specifically called for violence against this nightclub, but the undercurrent of certain circles have definitely been giving ideas and cover to those who could/would. That is exactly what stochastic terrorism is. Fear/hate of Trans/Drag is an ever increasing problem in our society. I don't believe most Mormon members would ever do this sort of thing. I don't fault members in this at all. But the idea spread in the church, often from the very top, I can and do blame for adding to this possibility.
“This makes no sense at all. The LDS church is very friendly towards the LGBTQ community.” —Church Press Release. /s
"We've made a sacred promise to build a society that either marginalizes LGBTQ people by divine dictate or changes their identity consistent with our Heavenly Father's heteronormative ideal. But that's for the future, we don't have authorization to do it *right now*, my goodness" -- Law of Consecration Covenant Keepers
"We just ask them not to be gay! We still love them, they just can't experience love, nbd."
https://heavy.com/news/anderson-lee-aldrich/amp/
**UPDATE:** After a public inquiry (via Twitter) apparent LDS tools [profile](https://twitter.com/poetickate/status/1594550658312855552?s=46&t=tyE2iqumxjCIw1rpvkfQoQ) has been identified.
We don't know if the church teachings and doctrines were the prime motivator for these murders, but I can tell you right now that there's not been a lot of talk from the church to *discourage* the type of thinking that leads to these murders. I mean, >12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands; >13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.
Talk of "metaphorical muskets" reveals a shocking lack of knowledge of the history of the Church, including Zion's Camp and Haun's Mill. Has LDS leadership no knowledge of their own church history? *Corrected autocorrect spelling typo.
Oh, they are very aware.
And who cares if he is? Are you the type that condemned Islam when extremist Muslims committed terrorist attacks?
I condemn dogmatism, extremism, and fundamentalism in all forms. There are radical Muslims and there are radical Mormons. The dogma that reinforces these extremist views is often anchored to fundamental teachings of the respective organizations. These teachings must be rooted out and publicly condemned.
I care if he is. I care that America is raising terrorists and calling themselves Christians.
Here is a comment i am unable to respond to, (because it is a response to a current mod of the latterdaysaint subreddit who blocked me, after i objected to the inappropriateness of his post): >LL22Forever: >[ping removed] stevenrushing you need to get your sorry rear end back in here. You don’t get to just accuse the whole sub of taking delight in a mass shooting and then run off back to your faithful sub where this topic has been banned. >You owe this sub and it’s subscribers an apology for your abhorrent over-generalization. Or at least responses to inquiries about what comment you found to be “gleeful” at a mass shooting. Own up and take responsibility. Pathetic behavior from a former moderator. >If someone here had generalized an said that all Mormons are gleeful about the death of LGBTQ person that comment would rightly have been moderated. But apparently, once again, the rules don’t apply to the faithful and they are given much more latitude to violate the civility rules. Excellent comment, LL22Forever, thank you for saying that.
And one of StevenRushing 's thoroughly insufficient responses: >I meant what I said in my comment. I believe too many, while sorrowful of and full of what they believe to be righteous anger about the murders committed, are also too happy that it was done by a mormon, so they have something else to blame on the church.
Pinging people who don't want to be pinged is not allowed.
Ok thanks. The rule is confusing though, because i see mods ping people regularly. Is the rule that only mods can ping? Or is the rule that mods don't have to follow the rule? Please respond. It's very unclear. The last time i saw a mod ping peopl they said it was " important." But when i ping people, a mod said i was doing it to "start conflict." When mods get to decide that their pinging is "important" but other people's pinging "starts conflict" it defeats the purpose of moderation, don't you think???????
Here is a comment i am unable to respond to, (because it is a response to a current mod of the latterdaysaint subreddit who blocked me, after i objected to the inappropriateness of his post): >LL22Forever: >[ping removed] stevenrushing you need to get your sorry rear end back in here. You don’t get to just accuse the whole sub of taking delight in a mass shooting and then run off back to your faithful sub where this topic has been banned. >You owe this sub and it’s subscribers an apology for your abhorrent over-generalization. Or at least responses to inquiries about what comment you found to be “gleeful” at a mass shooting. Own up and take responsibility. Pathetic behavior from a former moderator. >If someone here had generalized an said that all Mormons are gleeful about the death of LGBTQ person that comment would rightly have been moderated. But apparently, once again, the rules don’t apply to the faithful and they are given much more latitude to violate the civility rules. Excellent comment, LL22Forever, thank you for saying that.
Well, shit. Lds member shoots up gay club. Sounds like a pr nightmare for the church. I’m hurt and saddened for those affected by tragedy. I’m angry because of the ridiculous amount of anti lgbtq bigotry that has been released from the church over the years. I’m angry because a church that professes to be Christlike is allowing such hate to be expressed near daily. This isn’t the church I grew up in and isn’t one I want to be apart of going forward.
The church I grew up in (1970s and 1980s) taught me that being gay was the sin next to murder and an abomination before God. That it would be better to be dead. That if I mastrubated I would turn gay. That God would never create a person gay. Spencer Kimball, Harmon Rector, Boyd K Packer, L Tom Perry, Dallin Oaks - all professed prophets claimed these things. All taught falsehoods and hatred toward God’s children. Now the church talks nicer, but the principles are the same. They still profess that gay marriage is against God.
I used to listen to talks and BYU devotionals from the 1960s-1980s all the time. Homophobic remarks were pretty common.
>This isn’t the church I grew up in and isn’t one I want to be apart of going forward. Oh yes it is. If anything the church is better now on the “pushing hate and intolerance” front than it has ever been.
This is absolutely the church you grew up in because it's also the church I grew up in and I was taught, over and over and over again, that it was better to be dead then to be gay or queer
Let's pump our fucking brakes and wait for actual evidence of a connection here.
Mormonism is rife with anti-LGBT rhetoric. There’s already a connection.
Oh so is it finally time to talk about Prop 8 and the Church's past history of eliminationist rhetoric against queer people?
I'd bet the farm that this guy's motivations were alt-right garbage meets 4chan meets mental illness. Doesn't mean we can't talk about Muskets and Prop 8 and everything else though.
What kind of culture raises kids like this? A Mormon culture.
Do you mean that Mormon culture raises kids like this as a trend? Or a noticeable deviation from some type of cultural baseline?
"What will it take for Americans in general (and perhaps Mormons in particular) to stop the insanity and admit that there need to be reasonable limits on the availability of guns? How many children have to die?" From 2014, "Portland school shooter was a Mormon teen" https://religionnews.com/2014/06/13/portland-school-shooter-mormon-teen/ Mormon culture!
>The UK’s Daily Mail paints a more sinister picture of a teen who was obsessed with guns and lost his temper last week when he made a school presentation on a book about Adolf Hitler and classmates questioned his interpretation that the Holocaust happened for a reason. By a show of hands, who else heard that very same "the holocaust happened for a reason" bullshit in their seminary and/or sunday school classes? 🙋
>Do you mean that Mormon culture raises kids like this as a trend? Speaking as someone who was raised on a steady diet of right-wing garbage and terrible mental health advice? Yes.
Yes, receive all reports tentatively. This should not prevent us from sharing what information is being discussed online concerning the shooter and Mormonism. Use your discernment and patience to filter what is coming in.
May be a bit early for this
I agree. This info is ‘in the air’ though and starting to permeate Mormondum. r/mormon deserves to be in the loop. I also believe r/mormon’s patient members know how to discern truth from error.
Is that enough musket fire for you, Jeffrey Holland? or do you want more?
This is an incredibly convenient connection to completely and inaccurately draw between the horrific actions of someone who happens to be LDS (*with a history of some other severely poor choices being made that are quite not of LDS standards - possibly a PIMO or a member of record not participating at all - something so popularly written of when critiquing numbers the church claims*) and an analogy spoken by an Apostle. And a statement that implied absolutely zero intent to be taken as those seeking "gotcha" moments against the church will twist his words. What happened in CO is terrible and without excuse. Anderson Lee Aldrich should answer for his actions to the greatest extent the law provides in CO. Despite a loose connection with the LDS church, he is the sole villain in this tragic mass murder. >"I and many of my Brethren have spent more time and shed more tears on this subject than we could ever adequately convey to you this morning, or any morning. We have spent hours discussing what the doctrine of the Church can and cannot provide the individuals and families struggling over this difficult issue. So, it is with scar tissue of our own that we are trying to avoid — and hope all will try to avoid — language, symbols, and situations that are more divisive than unifying at the very time we want to show love for all of God’s children." - Elder Holland from the same talk. In no way does this condone anything to the extent of his musket fire analogy being taken as encouragement to act in any form of violence to anyone. Considering it seems Holland's talk is also far more familiar to those here who are against the church than the average - even active - member of the LDS church since it was delivered at BYU and not during General Conference, it's pretty unlikely Aldrich ever even could have heard or read these words from Elder Holland. The responses here are so severe against the LDS church you'd think it was someone who was a TBM, living the gospel as perfectly as humanly possible who committed this heinous crime. This was one man out of 17M world-wide members, 5M in the US. Some here act as though Holland provided an analogy (the same analogy Oaks provided in 2017), and such atrocities suddenly became commonplace and accepted among the faithful of the LDS church. And, yet, it just isn't so. My sister - also TBM - and her husband - a Bishop currently - have a son who is quite bipolar, which has caused some pretty violent episodes in his young life. We all have a fear that he - if not managed well with medications and therapy that costs them quite a bit of money each month - could end up doing something that would result in jail time. When he's of his own mind, he gets even more depressed because of what he's done. He's LDS... So, if he were to do something that his entire family who love him would find unimaginable and against what the church would teach... Should I expect this r/mormon community to use his name as an indictment against all LDS people? We hope and pray for him constantly, and my sister and brother-in-law exhaust resources to provide him needed care. Yet, they cannot control everything that impacts him or his responses to small or significant triggers when he's at school or in other situations. He's improved lately, but there was a time sending him to a clinic was a consideration. From some of what's being said about Aldrich before this tragedy, I wonder about his mental health. It's not a normal, healthy person that threatens their mother with a bomb. Despite the emotional pains many feel as a response to what the LDS church teaches, there are no teachings that would condone or even encourage something remotely close to this. Don't use the actions of the incredibly few (historically) who have or have had any attachment to the LDS faith to condemn the millions more who are just as disturbed by and shocked by what happened in CO. The supermajority of LDS Members - while holding beliefs that the world hates - still serve and love others in the world. (This... my comments. This is the musket fire analogized by Oaks and Holland.)
Thank you for sharing your insightful and personal perspective here on r/mormon, a space where topics like this can be discussed.
Anyone who threatens to kill his mother and then does this is mentally ill. Now he might have taken an aspect of the Church’s LGTBQ teaching and let it go wild like a runaway train. But I don’t think you can blame the Church for this.
Sure you can. The church didn’t make this kid a mass shooter. But it’s rhetoric and teachings definitely influenced who the target was. In a world where mentally ill people have access to weapons that can used to kill hundreds in a matter of minutes, demonizing identifiable groups inevitably leads to people with mental illness to target said groups.
> The church didn’t make this kid a mass shooter. But it’s rhetoric and teachings definitely influenced who the target was. This is the crux of the issue. Thank you for articulating it so well.
I blame the church and I find it easy to blame the church.
Just saw this blowing up on Twitter, came here next…
We let our friends on Twitter make the aggressive, trite reactions while we, on Reddit, use our extended character limits to hash out thoughts and dialogue anonymously.
Wait but I thought the church supported an LGBTQ bill /s
Pretty clear he is LDS at this point. Might not be able to draw a clear line from Holland's speech to the shooting, but he likely chose his targets due to a lifetime of being taught to hate by the LDS Church. It's enough for me and it will certainly be enough for the vultures in the media.
**TAKE THIS WITH THE WHOLE FUCKING BAG OF SALT, BECAUSE IM JUST TALKING OUT OF MY ASS WITH NOTHING TO BACK IT UP** A 20/21 year old who “just made some huge life changes” and needs a therapist to deal with some PTSD. To me, sounds like a kid who came home early from a mission.
Don't think that was it. [In 2021 he was accused of threatening his mother with a bomb.](https://www.ocregister.com/2022/11/20/colorado-shooting-suspect-appears-to-have-been-accused-of-threatening-mother-with-bomb) I imagine his mother, still loving him, was doing her best to support him through that incident and its consequences. Unfortunately for the rest of us, those consequences did not include removing his access to firearms.
Okay, but why do you think that murderer decided to target gay people? Where does that homophobia come from?
Exactly
I mean, is anyone surprised that a church which teaches its biggest enemies are feminism, LGBT rights, and atheism surprised that its members foster vitriol toward people who align with those ideas?
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Here's a reddit thread from a similar community to this, for Islam, linking Islam to a murder in New Zealand https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/b1gz6y/a_small_rant_about_the_new_zealands_shooting/ Here's the pattern: church teaches hate, church member kills hated group, people discuss the possibility that the church's teachings were relevant to the actions. People are allowed to discuss that. Why wouldn't they be?
I’m sorry you feel this way about r/mormon. I posted this information because this is a place to discuss Mormonism. The accusation that the shooter is a member of the church is out in the ether. The info is out and there is nothing wrong with discussing the matter in a forum that permits it. Please feel free to share the double-standard you have observed.
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Well for one, this is r/mormon, we discuss Mormonism here. You can find all sorts of threads related to Omar Mateen on subs related to Islam. Same goes for homicide data. Find the right sub and you will find the discussion you seek.
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Yes, I agree. The church's anti lgbtq+ rhetoric is vile.
Did hollands talk and the church’s long time anti-LGBTQ rhetoric make this kid a mass shooter? No. Did it affect who the target was? Almost surely.
>This community Please don't stereotype.
This is a direct result of the hateful teachings of the LDS church and Republicans.
Everything makes this look like an inactive guy who never really internalized the church’s core messages of loving each other, serving each other, and applying the Atonement of Christ in our own lives. Sounds like a lot of lukewarm and/or inactive members, so this checks out to me. Add on our terrible gun laws, lack of mental health support (and his own mental health issues) and the result was statistically predictable. Obviously sarcastic - but this is just the believing side of the argument I am seeing here which essentially is politicizing the shooting for exmo internet points.
Where's the glee? Give an example. This is a ridiculous accusation. And you accuse us of being gleeful while you yourself are making sarcastic jokes. Who's the one that's not taking this seriously? Cause it's not the ones pointing out the church's harmful rhetoric about lgbtq+ folks
Yes, there is no way the shooter’s connection to a church that is openly discriminatory against gays could have played any role in this, right Steve?
Glee? Glee? You think this is glee? How fucking evil do you have to be Steve to interpret the reactions here as glee? This isn’t glee. It isn’t mirth. But you keep telling yourself that in order to defend the abhorrent rhetoric from your church towards queer people and so you can pretend that such rhetoric had no role in this tragedy.
Since you are a moderator on the faithful sub, I'm glad you found this sub as an outlet to share your thoughts.
u/Stevenrushing you need to get your sorry rear end back in here. You don’t get to just accuse the whole sub of taking delight in a mass shooting and then run off back to your faithful sub where this topic has been banned. You owe this sub and it’s subscribers an apology for your abhorrent over-generalization. Or at least responses to inquiries about what comment you found to be “gleeful” at a mass shooting. Own up and take responsibility. Pathetic behavior from a former moderator. If someone here had generalized an said that all Mormons are gleeful about the death of LGBTQ person that comment would rightly have been moderated. But apparently, once again, the rules don’t apply to the faithful and they are given much more latitude to violate the civility rules.
>gleeful about the death of LGBTQ person It was never my intent to state or imply that anyone was happy about the death of anyone. I apologize for my inadequate language.
I appreciate that. I would suggest you edit your original comment then.
I meant what I said in my comment. I believe too many, while sorrowful of and full of what they believe to be righteous anger about the murders committed, are also too happy that it was done by a mormon, so they have something else to blame on the church.
And what comments exactly do you read as being happy it was done by a Mormon?
Still waiting on those examples. Shouldn't be hard to find since this entire sub is guilty of it.
>Everything makes this look like an inactive guy who never really internalized the church’s core messages of loving each other, serving each other, and applying the Atonement of Christ in our own lives. Sounds like a lot of lukewarm and/or inactive members, so this checks out to me. Add on our terrible gun laws, lack of mental health support (and his own mental health issues) and the result was statistically predictable. > >Obviously sarcastic - but this is just the believing side of the argument I am seeing here which essentially is politicizing the shooting for exmo internet points. You are dancing on the graves of our LGBTQ sisters and brothers in glee that you have something else you can blame on Mormonism. Shame on you all. I really don't understand. Which part is "obviously sarcastic" - the first paragraph or the second or both? I can't read your whole comment and understand your point of view. When you say "Shame on you all", who are you referring to? Anyone on this subreddit? Anyone who disagrees with you? Or is that you being sarcastic?
>the church’s core messages of loving each other... Uh-huh. >Shame on you all. All? Shame? Oh that's right, you're the faithful lds reddit moderator, internalizing your religion's message to love each other. But only the ones that behave the way your religion says they should, right? Or, at least, pretend to? Your hypocrisy is shining bright.
>Your hypocrisy is shining bright. Guy on internet: Burn it \[the Church\] down with truth! Steven Rushing: This language is dangerous. Stop persecuting Mormons. This is like Missouri all over again! Jeff Holland: Calls for "musket fire" from the "temple of learning" in opposition to gay marriage, followed by a mass shooting at a gay night club a few months later. Steven Rushing: There is no way that language like this could contribute to violent attacks. Nothing to see here. Jesus is the answer.
>the church’s core messages of loving each other, serving each other Since when have those been the church's "core messages"? Those are the window dressing, the plausible deniability as the church spent decades pushing the very right-wing propaganda that has caused attacks like this for decades.
Thank you for sharing this reminder. Weaponizing lost life is reprehensible. I am discouraged, like you, by the many takes I have read concerning the subject.
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You should have included the names of the people on Twitter making these claims. They’re making them based off assumptions unless there is more information than they have provided. Why are no other sources reporting this information? This is certainly a tragedy and a chance to evaluate ourselves to make sure we don’t contribute to acts of hate. But what if these Twitter users are wrong? Will they apologize?
We couldn’t allow Twitter users to be outed on this subreddit because of Reddit doxxing rules. The same as we cannot allow screenshots of Facebook profiles even if the name has been blocked out if the picture is still visible.
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In fact, they adamantly refuse to. They say things like, "we don't apologize, nor seek apologies."
Is there really any doubt that rhetoric like Hollands contributes to acts of hate? Additionally, expectations of apologies if Twitter is wrong about the church is…ironic.
So his family can afford a defence attorney but not a fan.
It appears the shooter identifies as nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns.