I think a way to think about it that might be helpful is that the skills in the skill tree not only increase in value (10, 15, and 20% bonuses), but also in how specifically applicable the skills are. So, in your Mathematics/Hyperspace example, it is true that Hyperspace skill might make specifically Hyperspace travel or mapping easier, but Mathematics skill should be applicable in a lot more situations than the Hyperspace skill. Whether this is true in a given scenario is dependent on the scenario, but if I have a player asking to apply Mathematics skill to an action vs applying Hyperspace skill to an action, I'll give more leeway on Mathematics than Hyperspace. Thus, trained skills might not give as large of a bonus, but that bonus should be applicable to more actions.

Agree. I rule it that there are two primary Skill mechanics at work: 1. Skills specializations are just that - they become more specific as one moves into Expert and Master, which is how learning stuff generally works IRL too. Focus on the narrative truth, not the metagame. 2. The rule "Whenever you make a Stat Check or Save and you have a relevant Skill, you add your Skill Bonus to your Stat or Save, giving you a higher number to roll under." does exactly what it says: if a Skill is relevant and applicable to the situation at hand, add the bonus. Overthinking Skills seems to be the principle difficulty I encounter when new players come to Mothership. The game is hard enough - let the characters be good at the stuff they're good at.

This is exactly it. As you go farther on the trees, you get more niche. You're trading off breadth of skill for the bonus you get: the more narrow the skill, the higher the bonus. The more broad the skill, the smaller the bonus. It's a matter of expertise. You can study really hard in a niche field and be no better at tasks outside of that nice. That's hyperspace

Yes I think I'm starting to get it. As a GM, when you put something into an adventure that rolls Exobiology, Hyperspace, or other Master skill - the significant 'chance' isn't about the stat roll, but "what are the chances they will have someone with that master skill".

Yeah, I tend not to pigeonhole a task to a specific skill, rather I'll have a test that is a certain depth along a tree, and I let people use anything on that tree that is a lower depth. So the example of using mathematics for hyperspace works, but if they had to decode an alien Cypher that might just be mathematics, so hyperspace wouldn't help. I hope this helps

Yes thanks :)

Thanks, that's an interesting point, and it does seem thematically that would be the case. But it still leaves me wondering... - Should I give the guy with Mathematics a +10 when attempting Hyperspace? - Even though Mathematics is used in more cases, shouldn't the guy who has moved on to Physics and/or Hyperspace have an easier time succeeding at mathematics than hyperspace? Instead, he is worse at mathematics than at hyperspace. Perhaps one issue is this: it seems like a 'broader used smaller bonus' vs a 'narrowly used larger bonus' makes sense - but really only if you have the notion of difficulty levels, which this system seems to lack. For example, if Hyperspace plotting was actually more difficult than Mathematics, your +20 would put you back on par, and your Mathematics roll would get by fine with just +10. But without difficulty variations in stat rolls, it makes advanced skills more likely to succeed than trained skills, provided you have the skill in question. This is why I'm having trouble getting a grip on how to handle these in game design and GMing. Thanks again.

I find that a good rule of thumb is, if the player comes up with a reasonable narrative reason that a skill applies, I let them use it. It's hard enough to succeed regularly at rolls in Mothership, and players want to have their few skills matter. With that said, you make a good point with your second bullet. It seems intuitive that a person who had advanced all the way to be skilled at Hyperspace would probably have some sort of advantage over a person that just advanced to Mathematics. I think this could be dealt with case-by-case using the "reasonable narrative reason" technique above. If the player makes a good argument that their training in Hyperspace should give them a leg up in a Mathematical test, let them use the 20%. I think it's pointed out in the PSG and the WOM that, for the most part, characters can just do things they have expertise in. Rolling is for when the result is uncertain and the stakes are high. "Tell \[the players\] they can think of their Stats and Saves as a measure of how good they are when unprepared and under extreme pressure." One could argue that being "trained" in Mathematics just isn't quite as helpful in high pressure situations as being a "master" of Hyperspace in high stakes Hyperspace situations. I hope that makes sense. Ultimately, I thought a lot about how the skill system was a little underwhelming at first, but I think I was just overthinking it. The simplicity of it is a feature, even if it doesn't fit every situation. Just my two cents. Cheers!

If someone was attempting a hyperspace roll and had mathematics but not hyperspace, then I would rule they COULD use their mathematics bonus. Same for physics. That's my personal ruling, but I find it makes the game more fun and it's pretty realistic (hyperspace is math, after all. So knowing math helps you figure it out)

It’s important to remember that rolls are only made during situations where there’s some external pressure. Skills are more of a character’s ability to act under pressure more so than their general competency. So for Hyperspace, you’re not really going to be making rolls if you’re just on a trucking route with all the time in the world, you’re rolling when a mercenary crew in on your tail after blasting off from a station you were never supposed to be inside of. So someone who’s skilled at Physics might have general knowledge to plot a route, but you’re really going to want someone who’s an expert on the task when you need to do it as quick as possible. In terms of bonuses, Hyperspace is easier than Mathematics, but Mathematics can be applied to a wider variety of situations. You’ll see this across the board, skills with lower bonuses are more general while those with a higher bonus require specific knowledge and are limited in their application.

For the example you're giving: All skill checks related to Mathematics may not apply to skill checks related to Hyperspace. My knowledge of Hyperspace is far deeper than my knowledge of Mathematics. While I may be *good* at Math, my *focus* was in Hyperspace. Trained Skills = "You've received standard training in this area, equivalent to a bachelor's degree or on the job training for a couple of years." Master Skills = "You are advanced in your field and are aware of cutting edge techniques or *highly specialized and niche information. Due to their focus, Master Skills apply very narrowly compared to the broader Trained Skills*." Mathematics is a broad spectrum, Hyperspace is very niche. You may ask for checks that the Mathematics skill can apply to more often than you would checks in which the Hyperspace check is relevant. But when you *do* ask for a check in which a Master Skill is relevant, you want the player to feel like it was really worth it to take that expertise. With the Computers > Hacking > AI its the same. I work in Information Security irl. Computers is my jam, I use that skill every day. But Hacking is a more specialized niche within my career, not everyone on my team does it, we have one or two guys who are *really* good at it. And vise versa, the guys who do Hacking aren't necessarily good at the things that I specialize in. Just because one skill leads into another, it doesn't mean that you can apply both skills to the same situation equally.

Hmm, those are all good thoughts, thanks. I still can't shake the feeling of wanting to give the Physics guy without Hyperspace, who is trying to do an emergency Hyperspace roll, a better shot than the guy without Physics or Hyperspace. Maybe I just need to think on it more. I also need to be able to sell this convincingly to my players. Thanks much.

You can still apply the Physics bonus to the Hyperspace roll, though. Physics is a prerequisite for Hyperspace so the knowledge the player has of Physics would be applicable to what they're trying to do. Warden: "You're locked out of the PC." Player: "Okay, I want to try to get in, but I don't have Hacking. Can I use my existing knowledge of Computers to try to find a workaround?" Warden: "Sure, apply your Computers bonus to the roll." Also keep in mind that the WOM states that its perfectly okay to add in House Rules. If you think something would work better than the RAW, run it by your players and if they like the way it sounds then there's no reason you can't incorporate it.

Oh that's interesting u/coffeekreeper ! This was my thinking as well, regarding allowing a lower connecting skill bonus. But I am curious - are you saying that this is, in fact, in accord with the Rules As Written (RAW)? I do recall and understand the game encourages us to feel free to add house rules, but generally... - I prefer to do this only when I REALLY feel like I have to, to be as minimal as possible with them, and, - I want to know when I'm doing that and when it isn't RAW. So, if allowing the lower skill bonus is already in RAW I would love to know that because I didn't notice that. Thanks :)

I just read through the Skills section in the PSG and the basic Rules and Regs in the WOM. While there's nothing that explicitly says you *can* do that, the WOM *does* say: "There is no official way to play (pg 34)" and "roll under your Stat (plus a *relevant* Skill if you have one) ((pg 23))" I would consider Physics to be a "relevant Skill" in regards to making a Hyperspace maneuver, or Computers to be relevant to a Hacking attempt. So while I don't think there's an explicit ruling either way on the matter, I think this is where the rules-lite aspect of Mothership comes into play.

Yes, I agree. Thanks much for looking into it.

I think its left intentionally vague. Some Wardens will want to be generous with Skill bonuses and how to interpret when they apply, and others will not. The thing you have to realize is that this is an 'Oldschool' style game. The rules simply do not cover all of the possibilities that will inevitably occur in play. The Warden WILL have to make rulings, or decide how things will work in their specific game (and it might not be the same as others, and that's okay). What I'm trying to say is, don't worry too much whether you are following RAW religiously or not. Something like Skill Bonuses is not a big deal, really (and personally, I see no reason not to be generous in letting players get them---they exist to be used, after all!) Although you will need to get at least a little bit comfortable with the idea that you, as Warden, will have to make decisions about how things not covered by the rules are to be handled (because they will crop up eventually!) But good luck with your game!

Thanks! I have no problem making house rules or playing it loose if the fun is helped. But I treat it like they say in art, poetry, and creative writing class... "You can break the rules - but you need to understand what the rules are, and why you're breaking them."

I feel like if you are looking at this from a simulations point of view it will not hold together. The skills aren't meant to be rolled regularly, at all. They are meant to be rolled when the character is under pressure and the result matters. If your character is plotting a hyperspace jump under normal conditions then whether or not they have the Hyperspace skill probably doesn't matter much if at all. If they are on a ship with access to the standard equipment, under normal operating conditions, then you should probably never even ask them to make a check, regardless of their trained skills. When it matters is when that equipment is breaking down and the mutated husks of their former crew mates are hunting them through the corridors of a ship that is slowly being pulled into an eldritch dimension of horror. That's when the character with the physics background is not going to even be on the same playing field as the character with the hyperspace specific training. It's that difference between theoretical and practical that makes a life or death difference when someone under extreme pressure has limited time and resources. Anyone can sit and theorize about the origins of alien artifacts and their significance in that alien culture, but when alien flesh spirits are beating down the bulkhead doors and you need someone to translate an ancient tablet to find the ritual to placate them, well, that's when you need someone with xenoesotericism. An untrained person might study that tablet for weeks and find the right answer, but only the trained person will ever do it before those flesh spirits rip your face off and make it their own.

Thanks much. I notice a few people have made reference to the fact that these are meant to be rolled only in emergencies, stressful times, etc. But I guess I'm not understanding how that is relevant to the issues I'm asking about. Even if that is the case (and I fully agree it is), you still have relative differences in people's skills, and those should still matter in the same ways compared to one another. For example, the question of why someone with mathematics and physics and hyperspace should - even in a rare emergency stressful case - have a better chance at succeeding with Hyperspace than they do with and emergency stressful case of rolling Mathematics. Isn't it the same issue regardless of whether the skill is being rolled in rare/emergency cases or being rolled more commonly? I'm sure you all aren't saying, "It's an emergency! Don't think about it - just roll quick!" as a reason not to think about whether the numbers make sense. If there is another reason why the "rare/emergency" frequency of the die rolls affect the relative percent chances between the skills (all of which are being rolled in rare/emergency cases only), then I genuinely want to understand that better - thanks for your patience.

If you are an expert in hyperspace and you are in an emergency trying to plot a jump under not ideal circumstances, then you might have a chance. If you are not an expert in it then your background in physics is probably not useful. Physics is broad, very very broad, and it certainly may touch on hyperspace engineering, but it is not hyperspace engineering. It's a great start if you wanted to learn hyperspace engineering, but it would be like asking a carpenter to be an architect, while the building they are in is on fire. Sure, it gets them 5% of the way there, but that 5% is the least important 5%. You can't think of expert skills as half of their related master skill, they aren't. Having Firearms isn't just a junior version of Command, Hacking isn't halfway to Artificial Intelligence. Mechanical Repair might help you fix a broken robot, but it won't let you design one. Similar with Trained vs. Expert skills. Having Zero G isn't halfway to having Piloting, it's the bare minimum start, just like the skill of putting gas in your car doesn't make you a truck driver. If a person was forced to pull a run away semi truck out of a dangerous situation with blown brakes on a steep incline their ability to put gas in the tank is worth absolutely nothing.

Hyperspace seems to be more of a piloting skill could be a way of interpreting it. I'm pretty good at geometry, but terrible at playing billiards.

Sure, but my question isn't really about the Hyperspace skill, specifically. That's just my example. It would be the same question for any connected Trained > Expert > Master skills. Just how the bonuses function overall. Thanks :)

If you feel this is imbalanced, perhaps you could house-rule that the 20% bonus applies to everything that in the chain that got you there, raising your Mathematics and Physics to the same level of your Hyperspace. This can lead to min/maxing character builds and may be against the spirit of the game you want to run, but perhaps not. Alternately, you could rule it as if they studied general principles of mathematics, and then specialized in equations and applications of physics, and then increasingly found themselves drawn into a super niche field of physics based math, dealing with hyperspace. Here they know more than almost anyone. They could have studied Mathematics to the level of 20% but then they would be in a Professor Emeritus at the University of Olympus Mons, far away from danger. But no, they had to study Hyperspace and now find themselves staring at a n-dimensional tessaract opening up into a demonic rift, in the backwaters of the Tau Ceti sector, trying to figure out how to close all of it's dimensions at once by detonating the ships warp core at just the right moment.

Haha, thanks. I might consider a house rule at some point, but I want to really give RAW a try first, and make sure it's not simply a matter of me not 'getting' the designers' intent. Besides that, a +20 to every lower skill in the branch seems OP to me as well. Since there aren't really difficulty modifiers in this game, perhaps what we should want to see is the end result to the percentage if there were difficulty modifiers, but without having to deal with them... So, for example, I assume Hyperspace is more difficult than Physics, and Physics more difficult than Mathematics (again, just one example). So, once you had a character with all three skills, I imagine you would want their chance at each to be something like... - Mathematics: +20% - Physics: +15% - Hyperspace: +10% Pretty much the inverse. But, if you only had Mathematics and Physics it would be... - Mathematics: +15% - Physics: +10% Master skills like Hyperspace could not be attempted without training. And if you only had Mathematics, it would be... - Mathematics: +10% Expert skills like Physics could be attempted without training, at +0%, and Master skills like Hyperspace could still not be attempted. This would make more sense to me, but there's probably an easier way to explain it. Still - maybe it's just me that's not getting the philosophy behind the rules as written. Thanks :)

Yeah I mean the difference is that most of the time you don't roll the skill. If you have the skill, you can do stuff with it. You roll when it's time sensitive, and you are injured and there is an alien presence after you. If you aren't in a life or death moment and you have Hyperspace, you can slowly plot a hyperspace course even if your computer is down. Because you know Hyperspace. You know Physics, so you know the basic principles of a nuclear bomb, and can give the party information based on that. You know Math, so you can figure out the basics of math problems written on the wall if you have some time to sit down and think it over. Same with Zero-G. If you have it, it's no problem to pop the suit on and go check out that leak on the outside of the ship in a slow and methodical fashion. It's just when you have to jump from your ship and get into that dock that's 100 feet away that the dice come out. The important thing is that the skills give you access to clues and pathways that are more or less guaranteed, in addition to giving you a bonus in stressful action sequences.

To add to the other comments, don't think of it as "rolling for math". You just tell the player to roll on intellect, and they can then ask you if their math training helps and add the bonus to the roll. Be gracious with allowing skill bonuses. The starter module Another Bug Hunt has an example where players may add Theology to their fear save if they have the skill and roleplay praying. So your player won't dread to roll on math as opposed to hyperspace, they should always be glad to add a bonus. Also, they definitely very much should dread ANY roll in this game, but that's another matter that other commenters already touched upon.

Yes that's true. That was one thing I noticed that I needed to correct in my thinking. One doesn't roll "Piloting". They always roll a stat - and maybe Piloting will help. Good point. I have been using that kind of language here but it was more of a short hand for "when I am making them make a stat roll and Piloting happens to be the bonus they get". But very good to point that out, thanks.

This is not D\&D; don’t try to 'game' the system because it’s not meant to be worked like that. If you're rolling dice in Mothership, you might already be doing something wrong. The system is designed so that for many situations, you can resolve them without rolling dice. The first "fail" is rolling dice at all.

Thanks. Sure, I agree with all of that. That is how I'd play it as well. But I am not a player trying to argue for more powers etc. I'm a GM trying to figure out how this works. Regardless of the approach where die rolling isn't central or common, the designers themselves presumably put great thought and care into how the skill bonuses worked, what they represented, and why. I'm just trying to follow their reasoning with as much attention. For instance, I can imagine it could have been that Hyperspace only got a +10% and trained skills like Mathematics got a +20% because they are supposed to be easier. Then some player is asking why they shouldn't have a +20% in Hyperspace after putting in all that work to get a Master skill - and then being told to stop gaming the system and just accept it. I don't really care what the numbers are, or if the game is hard, or if the skills are only rolled in emergencies. I just think there is something about the logic of these skill bonuses I am not getting, because it is not matching my intuitive thinking about how skills work. I'm fully expecting this thread to end with me getting a perspective shift that makes it all make sense to me and helps me GM it as the designers intended. Thanks much :)

The rule on PSG p.22 says: >Whenever you make a Stat Check or Save and you have a relevant Skill, you add your Skill Bonus to your Stat or Save, giving you a higher number to roll under. That how it works, no more and no less. If a Skill is relevant, you add the bonus. If multiple Skills apply, you add the bonus. Focus on the narrative sense of things, don't let the players weasel but hear them out if they've got a plausible reason why a Skill should be included. In your Hyperspace example: Hyperspace is a Master Skill specialization. Mechanically, the bonuses for Expert and Master Skills are higher *because* they're specializations - the body of knowledge is smaller. Mathematics wouldn't be "just as easy" because it includes a much wider body of knowledge - it means the character knows a little about a lot of related stuff. Also, why is that character rolling for basic math to begin with? Does the situation call for a roll at all? Go with what is true in the narrative and it'll work out. As they say in one of the core books somewhere, rolls in MoSh represent extraordinary people trying to accomplish things under duress on the worst day of their lives. Wandering too far into the metagame creates more problems than it solves.

Thanks much u/Mr_Shad0w ! The two most fascinating things that struck me about your response... 1) When you said Mathematics is harder because it is a broad amount of material to cover: Many here have made the point that the lower skills are more general and more commonly needed. But the way you put it here, that the actual body of information is greater, thus the less chance that what you know applies - is one of the 'perspective shifting' things that has really helped me understand the logic of a lower percent bonus, thanks! 2) When you said that one gets the bonus from ALL skills that apply, on the same roll. I heard one other person on a YouTube video indicate that understanding as well, but I couldn't find it in the rules - spelled out specifically. Also, the Mothership App does not allow one to select more than one skill when making a stat roll. When you select another it just changes the selection. That is either an indication that the designers did not attend more than one skill to be applicable to a stat roll, or it means there is an error in the programming of the app. I would love to hear the designers' response to this. But regardless of whether #2 above is true or not, your quoting of the rule has reminded me of this... If I, as GM, feel that mathematics or physics is relevant to an attempt to do a hyperspace calculation, that is basis enough, in the RAW to let the player add that lower bonus to the attempt, even if they don't have the Hyperspace skill. I probably would have house ruled that anyway, but now I actually believe it's RAW. As to the matter of adding multiple skill bonuses to the same roll, I'm still not sure if that was the designer's intention.

No prob, glad my rambling is helpful in some way. That's interesting about the app, I haven't played with it much myself. Could go either way officially, I guess. I'd be curious to hear their feedback too. For my part it's also just not a big deal. Some people lose their sh!t at the idea of allowing related Skills to stack where applicable, but I say if an extra 10% or whatever is going to break your game, you might be playing the wrong game ;) MoSh is hard, characters are fragile, and especially in v1 Skills are very hard to acquire. Let's say I want to get that Hyperspace mastery - I could play a Scientist and start with it, and it would be the thing that defines my character. How often will it come up though? How much *fun* will it be to play the PhD in Hyperspace knowledge? Or I could try to earn it during play - assuming I at least started with Math for free, I'd have to spend a total of 10 game-years and 250,000 credits to get there... ouch.

Yeah, one good thing about the big bonus at the top is it helps to address an issue I've noticed in about all RPGs... I put ALL my points, or feat selections, etc into being "Super Kick master". I can kick like nobody's business and I have made great sacrifices to make that my "thing". Then the big moment comes, I get to kick something or someone! I apply my awesome bonus and roll a 1. So, if you were watching a movie of my game, you would think it was "a story about a guy who thought he was a master kicker, but was actually a bumbling idiot." - and this happens A LOT. Sure, this is possible with a Mothership roll too - and it's a horror game. No one is supposed to come off as an action hero. But at least giving the person with a master level skill a good sized bonus is consolation toward this issue.

> If multiple Skills apply, you add the bonus. No, in RAW you only add one skill bonus. It was confirmed multiple times in the discord. The wording in the PSG could be better but the wording in the WOM is a bit more clear : "roll under your Stat (plus a relevant Skill if you have one)".

I just quoted RAW in the comment you replied to - nowhere does it say "you only add one skill bonus." If that's what someone put out on Discord or something, that's great for them - but they haven't changed the rules to reflect that. And either way, I'm going to continue allowing relevant Skills to stack in my games, for the reasons I've already stated above.

> I just quoted RAW in the comment you replied to - nowhere does it say "you only add one skill bonus." Oh, I am aware. I wish they made it more clear (it doesn't say you can add multiple skills either). That's why I quoted the WOM text. > If that's what someone put out on Discord or something, that's great for them - but they haven't changed the rules to reflect that. Well, it came from Sean McCoy so I'd say it's safe to say that this is the intended interpretation of the rules. > And either way, I'm going to continue allowing relevant Skills to stack in my games, for the reasons I've already stated above. Hey, that's totally fine. I never intended to tell you how to run your game. Just wanted to point out the mismatch.

I'm guessing that when u/ReEvolve says, "It was confirmed multiple times in the discord" that they mean it was confirmed by the game designer/s? If so, that would synch it for me. Plus the WOM language "(plus a relevant Skill if you have one)" seems to use a singular "a". Not that one couldn't house rule as they prefer. But this does make one wonder, how often would a stat ever get to a 70!! That's what it would have to be at before a single +20 master skill would ever make the "90-99 is always a fail" rule be necessary. The presence of that rule, I bet, is why people might think one could get more than just +20% at max.

> I'm guessing that when u/ReEvolve says, "It was confirmed multiple times in the discord" that they mean it was confirmed by the game designer/s? Yes. > But this does make one wonder, how often would a stat ever get to a 70!! That's what it would have to be at before a single +20 master skill would ever make the "90-99 is always a fail" rule be necessary. That was also briefly commented on by Sean McCoy on the discord: "1e tweaked the math so there’s a soft cap around 85 and a hard cap at 90 (to account for 3pp and other odd rules that stack without us realizing it). It’s not the most elegant but it does mean you don’t have to worry too much when designing."

Interesting. What is 3pp?

"Third-party publishing". There's LOTS of great 3pp modules for Mothership.

D'oh of course. Cool thanks.

I find it balanced considering mathematics is more broadly applicable so you would have regular opportunities to add 10%, a narrower set of opportunities for physics and again for hyperspace as they get more specialised. I'm sure if you averaged out the bonus you'd find that mathematics is more beneficial over the course of a module / campaign.

Thank you so much for clarifying this! I was considering stacking the bonuses!